Andre Sullivan on “gay erasure”

Like so much of what Andrew Sullivan has written, he's not wrong here.

But he's erred so many times, he has invalidated himself.

I agree with him

I now have a little respect for him.

Good piece.

There was a time when I was 5 or 6 when I used to dress up in an old slip of my moms and stomp around in her high heels. All I can remember is that it was enjoyable. She never criticized me—never even commented on it—but just let me be and I just stopped doing it at some point. If she had enthusiastically encouraged me to dress up and asked me if I wanted to be a girl…I probably would have said “yes.”

Later, from about 7 to 9 or 10, boys frightened me and I liked the company of girls and the kind of toys and games they played with. I liked talking, not roughhousing. I believed briefly that maybe I was supposed to be a girl and it scared me because I didn’t want to be a girl but I thought it would be easier to be a girl. If a shrink had delved into this with me, I may have believed I wanted to transition.

But when I was 11, I became attracted to my camp counselor. Soon after, I knew I was a gay boy and it was a secret but I knew it to be authentic and that felt good.

I used to think trans people were the bravest people in the world and many were. I remember looking at a woman of about 30 on the subway in 2007 or 2008. She was clearly commuting home from work like everyone else. I looked closer and realized she was a man, likely living a year as a woman, something that used to be a big step before anything surgical. I thought about how sure one must have to be—and how badly one must want it—to be on that path, and that was true at the time.

Now, it’s all hijacked. Aside from the gays and lesbians, the Queer movement also hurts the people looking to legitimately transition. My best friend’s daughter is 16 and identifies as non-binary. I bought her a few books last year on different topics, including a coffee table book on the 50th anniversary of Stonewall. I thumbed through it after I bought it and it was almost all gay and lesbian and it made me realize how rapidly things have changed—and how gay history would mean very little to her.

If my parents had been liberal, I might have said, I'm a girl! when I was six. But that was because most of my social models were female—I had two sisters, an omnipresent mother, female teachers. But by eight, I was in Boy Scouts and sports and had all male friends.

If my parents had been super liberal—or maybe even conservative—and dug deeper to find the gay, would they have sent me down the gender transition road? I wonder about this. They did a bunch of wacky stuff to deal with my food allergies and being underweight in the '80s that has since been disproven.

[quote]My best friend’s daughter is 16 and identifies as non-binary. I bought her a few books last year on different topics, including a coffee table book on the 50th anniversary of Stonewall. I thumbed through it after I bought it and it was almost all gay and lesbian and it made me realize how rapidly things have changed—and how gay history would mean very little to her.

It's like, in the space of five years, white gay men have been absorbed into the patriarchy and worthy of dismissal or even contempt.

Sorry what? How many of us fought and died and are still dealing with that, and the ripple effects of growing up with major homophobia. Could that get a little attention too? I'm a gay man in my mid-40s and feel like 25% an enemy within my own movement, which is too much.

I may read later. He’s so off-putting. His theatrical and pompous presentation make it difficult to hear what he is trying to say. Also, the loyalty he has to the RC Church, right wing causes, and hypercriticism of all things gay make him appear obtuse and the quintessential Uncle Tom.

This article 100% summarises everything about where we are. Every gay person should read it and it should go viral. Some of us have been saying these things for more than 5 years now and get routinely shouted down or accused of bigotry because of it.

This...

"But when you examine the other issues at stake — public schools teaching the concepts of queer and gender theory to kindergartners on up, sex changes for children before puberty, the housing of biological males with women in prisons and rape shelters, and biological males competing with women in sports — you realize we are far beyond what the gay rights movement once stood for. It’s these initiatives from the far left that are new; and the backlash is quite obviously a reaction to the capture of the gay rights movement by queer social justice activists."

[quote] Just as the religious right told gay men to get used to liking vaginas, so too does the queer left. And just as the Christianists told us we weren’t men, so too do the queers.

Essential to realize the convergence of queer ideology and the religious right in their gay denial and erasure.

It's no surprise that the far left --- who love to kiss the ass of Islam--- are similar to Iran in pushing "trans" on gay men.

Sullivan is an inconsistent thinker (sucking up to institutions and ideologies that still hate the gays), a moron when it comes to race, and a pompous blowhard generally - but on this issue, he's right on the money.

And now we see how far the anti-trans will go if they're willing to suck Sullivan's reichwing weiner.

[quote] And you have to give him credit because it takes balls to speak up about the absurdity and dishonesty of the modern LQBTQ+ movement.

What is absurd and dishonest is to acknowledge that since the dawn of time, newer generations changed course or direction in terms of the generation's priorities and values compared to what the previous generation cared for.

In true conservative fashion, Sullivan whines about how the new generation doesn't share the apparent same (conservative) values of his generation. Willingly reducing himself to a "get off my lawn" grump.

R13 is a cockwomble that possesses no critical thinking skills.

So a conservative, morally corrupt, gay pundit is pushing the conservative fake culture war bullshit onto the LGBT Community? What a shocker.

R16 didn't read the article.

Do you really need to read anything about this guy?

Andrew Sullivan = Cunt!

It's like that Anderson Cooper bitch lecturing us about staying in our "silo" for being angry about CNN's carefully prepared town hall with Donald Trump.

Oh, some fantards and shills claim he's right about something? Sure, Jan.

I can understand his point.

But the truth is the gay male community is still in tact.

The female non-lesbian invasion of LGBT is what has caused the chaos and altered queer identity.

I don’t think any of this nonsense the last 10 years has actually had an effect on gay men.

There’s plenty of young gay men. There are still high school kids who are male and identity as gay. The statistics of gay men are probably the same or higher.

There are way more females who identity as trans today than males who identify as trans.

It’s the lesbians who are in trouble cause this shit is mostly self-hating young girls who want to be anything but a woman.

R18 You're an idiot. If you can't be bothered to read the article your opinion means nothing.

R19? Show us the data.

R21 Here

[quote] he's not wrong here. But he's erred so many times, he has invalidated himself.

Honey, get over yourself. People read him. You don’t agree with everything he’s said - good. This idea that everyone must pass some purity test is destroying the left. Group think is never a good thing.

[quote] I don’t think any of this nonsense the last 10 years has actually had an effect on gay men.

Yeah, okay. lol. Support for gays continues to plummet thanks to trans ideology.

[quote] In true conservative fashion, Sullivan whines about how the new generation doesn't share the apparent same (conservative) values of his generation.

The fact that you believe that an entire generation buys into this crap is due to you believing that America = NYC and San Francisco.

What irritates me is that so many of these people are trying something on because it is in vogue and they think it makes them unique. It doesn’t. They come across as whiny little bitches looking for victim status. Give it five years and most of them will have moved on. Give me a good old fashioned trans person who really means it. That takes courage.

It is unsurprising to me that Andrew Sullivan has jumped onto the Russian 𝑑𝑒𝑧𝑖𝑛𝑓𝑜𝑟𝑚𝑎𝑡𝑠𝑖𝑦𝑎 narrative attempting to foment division between the constituents of the LGBTQ. Shame on the far right trolls attempting to sell/propagate that bullshit here.

There is no 'gay erasure' except in that propaganda coming from the far right. And they are coming for all of us.

R27 Are you fucking blind or just permanently online? A cursory look into Tavistock, Stonewall, HRC and GLAAD will show you what's been going on right under our noses. You fucking imbecile trying to shift the blame to outside forces when all this shit has been coming from within for years because we were too bound up in "inclusion" to notice that a cancer had taken hold of OUR organizations.

I will not be erased!

R28, your invective is an indicator that you don't have a real argument. Hang it up.

R30 You are patently absurd. If a real argument isn't actually looking at the organisations and what they are doing then nothing is. There is no bias or agenda in looking to see what a company / charity is doing in the name of whoever. You just won't because you'd see that it runs counter to the narrative in your head.

[quote]R31: If a real argument isn't actually looking at the organisations and what they are doing then nothing is.

You haven't provided anything like that. Neither does Sullivan in the article.

[quote]There is no bias or agenda in looking to see what a company / charity is doing in the name of whoever.

Mere allegations of that do not constitute actual data.

[quote]You just won't because you'd see that it runs counter to the narrative in your head.

Projection.

You're unable to support your claims.

“GLAAD Changing Name and Mission to be More Trans* Inclusive”

Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD), announced Sunday that it is changing its name from Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation to just GLAAD in an effort to expand its mission statement to include members of the transgender community. GLAAD is known for its efforts to curb anti-gay and lesbian media–an effort it now looks to extend to trans* and bisexual people.

GLAAD spokesperson Rich Ferraro said in an interview with MSNBC.com, “This is a reflection of the work we’re doing today, and a reflection of the work the gay and lesbian community needs to be doing…our name was hindering that in many instances.”

Ferrero went on to comment on changing social stigma. “There have been huge increases in support for gay and lesbians, and for marriage equality. We’ve noticed that trend and wondered how we could use the tactics that the gay and lesbian community had used to get to today’s tipping point [for the trans* community].”

Transgender advocate Janet Mock, who joined Rich Ferraro on MSNBC, added “We need to redefine what equality is. If we’re defining equality as something that is scarce and limited and is for a very select few in our community and some of us need to wait a little bit. That is not equality. That’s upholding very systematic systems of oppression.”

[quote]And you have to give him credit

You do not under any circumstances "have to hand it to him."

r33's "news" is from 2013, and all they did was change to using only the initialism "GLAAD," which wasn't much of a name change at all.

[quote]They come across as whiny little bitches looking for victim status.

And you don't? These threads are all "I'm being erased! The trans power elite are disappearing women, kids, gays and lesbians! We're being victimized by the intolerant woke left!"

[quote]Support for gays continues to plummet

LGBT support has been steadily increasing for decades and has not dropped, let alone plummeted. Stop fucking lying.

The culture of WHINE

gGay erasure is coming from Dont Say Gay laws and anti-gay book bans

Do Chinese Americans get erased if you lump them into Asian American?

No.

The larger the group, the larger the political power.

That’s why we have to use terms like LGBTQ and Queer when we want to show political power

[quote] The fact that you believe that an entire generation buys into this crap is due to you believing that America = NYC and San Francisco.

Here's one basic fact that has been true for decades: If Conservatives push and fight for something, it's really, really, really bad for the rest of us. Now, you can kiss Andrew's and the GOP's ass as much as you want, and of course you have every right to do so, but I and pretty much all Liberals will refuse to join you, because we know Republicans are self-serving bastards who don't give a fuck about the good of all people.

Not a single new idea here. Just the same old anti-trans talking points brought to you by the RNC.

Man, I am o-l-d. Andrew is still writing... writing lengthy pieces that take more than one pass to get through because he doesn't have an editor.

I put Sully aside years ago... he was far too rah-rah when the US invaded Iraq, I think he worshipped Bush II, I realized he was never honest about how he became infected with HIV (and then there was the Milky Loads profile at Ultimate Bareback). He wanted to seen as insightful as C Hitchens, but wasn't.

But he's often right, and he is with that article. I am gay. I am not bi, I do not have any interest in women sexually. Just plain ole gay. I like (but don't love) my male body. I really like my dick. I like dick in general. I like other men's dicks. I like other men's bodies... hairy chests, thick legs... I like looking at them, fantasizing about them and sometimes enjoying them.

And I have NOTHING in common with the T or the trans. And I am not part of some artificially created and ever expanding alphabet soup of letters with a plus symbol. I do not know what "queer" means... I'm gay.

And the screeching for inclusion everywhere by the T, which means "look at me! and me! only!!!" is just wrong. Let children be children - stay out of education and the doctor's office. Give them the time to be a child and progress in life and bump up against questioning later, when they have better cognitive skills to ponder, question, embrace or walk away from seeing themselves as the T insist.

Early in that Sully piece he mentions that gay men and women just wanted to be left alone to live life with same rights and privileges as straight people. He's right. And we got that and moved along (yes, plenty of people did not like it). But the T and their supporters are pushing for much more than that and gays and lesbians will get swept up in the mess, rejection, reaction of society because we are included in that alphabet soup of initials.

Why should I care about the socialists? I have nothing in common with them.

Why should I care for the trade unionists? I have nothing in common with them.

Why should I care about the Jews? I have nothing in common with them.

Why should I care about the trans? I have nothing in common with them.

R43, sure, you’re gay. No one is taking that away from you.

However, just being gay isn’t giving you why political power. No politicians is going to give a fuck if you show up and and say “Im gay!”

If you are part of a coalition—the bigger the better—politicians will take notice.

This is why People of Color or BIPOC is used over just Black. The coalition is bigger and has more power as a consequence

It has become a subculture and lifestyle movement, similar to hippies or punks, that now includes everyone who feels they deviate from the norm. Any boring and conventional looking gay person who hasn’t draped their house with pride flags and doesn’t dress and act in a particular way is now essentially part of the patriarchy.

r47, that's hilarious coming from a side proudly wearing red MAGA hats. That's a lifestyle choice, too, you know?

R48 Sexual orientation is not something you choose, can control or change, unlike political beliefs. So turning it into a subculture makes no sense.

You think the term BIPOC is building a larger constituency. Hint, all people of color do not share a hive mind. Some groups have zero interests in common.

This is what they want- for us to fight amongst ourselves instead of fighting the real enemy

This thread will get very heated

Congrats, Andrew Sullivan, you win again

[quote] Sexual orientation is not something you choose, can control or change, unlike political beliefs. So turning it into a subculture makes no sense.

You can choose to wear a red MAGA hat, don't you? So with your kind of ridiculously flawed logic, yeah, it's exactly the same.

[quote] This is what they want- for us to fight amongst ourselves instead of fighting the real enemy

I don't consider right wing trolls and haters part of "ourselves", why do you?

Andrew Sullivan looking for his next idea.

He's right.

I don't have to like him, don't have to agree with his every past article and opinion, don't have to like his religion or that he has one, don't have to think he's a great person or someone I would ever want to call a friend, don't have to keep a scorecard of where our views have aligned or diverged in the past, don't even have to think he's a nice person, don't have to hold my tongue when in the future I disagree with him.

He's still right about this.

R52 I’m not even American. What bothers me that this movement is force feeding groupthink and it’s being diluted with people who are essential heterosexual, but who feel like they’re somehow “ideologically gay” and therefore can boss actual gays around.

I disagree with his reasoning as to why this happened

This did not happen because we reached a turning point with the gay marriage victory

This happened long before that

It happened because we allowed too many women into leadership positions. When we allowed the “L” to go first in LGBT. (I still remember when GLBT was more common)

I like women, but let’s be honest, all they want to do is ACCOMMODATE. It is inherent in women and once you put them in leadership positions, they will accommodate the hell out of everything until it loses all meaning. Women have literally accommodated others so that they have convinced themselves that a man can be just as much a woman as a woman is. Men simply don’t have this kind of logic. Men will never admit that a woman is REALLY a man, but women will admit and ARGUE IN FAVOR that a man in really a woman.

Once women began dominating gay rights organizations, we signed off on our own erasure.

The phrase BIPOC was not created to expand a coalition but rather to limit it or, at the very least, center it around Black and Indigenous people.

There's actually been the charge that it's designed to specifically exclude Asians because their issues are significantly different.

What a load of horseshit, r57.

Just like every MAGAt who walks the planet, you pissy snowflakes whining about "gay erasure" are the imaginary victims of everything that gives attention to anyone but you.

You are not being erased.

You can be the biggest gay who ever gayed.

Get over yourself.

[quote]I like women, but let’s be honest, all they want to do is ACCOMMODATE. It is inherent in women and once you put them in leadership positions, they will accommodate the hell out of everything until it loses all meaning.

I expected to spit and carry on about your post, R57, but I have to admit I agree with this point. Back when I was a young'un in the nascent women's movement in the early 70s, I saw this all the time. "But what about this? And what about that?" Every single nuance had to be pondered and included in the final outcome until it drove me bananas. And guess what? In spite of the additional rights women now enjoy, we are still considered to be the weaker/lesser sex, and women buy into that idea as well. How much did we really "win"?

So you're right. Men seem to be more single-minded. That's not always a good thing (and often isn't), but I understand how it would be beneficial in this situation.

[Quote] You think the term BIPOC is building a larger constituency. Hint, all people of color do not share a hive mind. Some groups have zero interests in common.

And those groups will be ignored by those with political power

[Quote] The phrase BIPOC was not created to expand a coalition but rather to limit it or, at the very least, center it around Black and Indigenous people.

No, it’s an attempt to have another word for “minority.” Unfortunately it’s not a great attempt because it sort of glosses over huge groups of people —Latinos and Asians—but it’s an attempt nonetheless

[Quote] You think the term BIPOC is building a larger constituency. Hint, all people of color do not share a hive mind. Some groups have zero interests in common

Do you think all white groups have tons in common?

[quote]I like women

Yes, that's clear.

It's pathetic that this is reduced to a political signifier by many posters here. We aren't all Americans so this nonsense about having to be being Democrat or Republican is irrelevant. Calling someone from Europe a MAGAT isn't an insult because it's simply not a thing. The fact that there is so little critical thinking by American gays IS a problem however. You can't continue to be so myopic on this subject. At some point you'll see what's actually happening and it'll be far too late.

Who called you non-Americans MAGAts?

Sullivan's key point is that pre-pubescent children in general are being pressured to make life decisions about gender. I am not denying that some kids truly feel body dysphoria from an early age, but the push to transition does reduce the possibility that a boy or girl might otherwise grow up to be gay/lesbian. I am not worried about being "erased" but I wonder what future gay/lesbian generations will be like if this trend continues. I am an eldergay who has been around since Stonewall, and have known trans people over the years. Until a decade or so ago, it was a very rare occurrence. This new situation seems very different to me.

In my personal world, among my straight friends and neighbors, I currently know five people who are transitioning /have transitioned. I'm happy to say that they all seem to be functioning very well in their lives. One is an adult FTM who had been married to a man and had children, then divorced and became a lesbian, then transitioned to male and now is married to a woman. (Whew!) The others are children of friends -- three are also FTM - one has insisted since childhood that they were the wrong sex, and it always seemed clear that transitioning would be the right course of action. The second and third are both adolescents who began to dress male around 12 years of age and have now adopted gender-neutral first names. One is in high school, the other in college. The last and most recent is the adult son of friends, in his mid-twenties, who announced his MTF transition a year or so ago. She is now about to be married to a woman. I don't know if she has had "the snip" or still has an operative penis (and it's none of my business anyway).

Sorry, but I find it all very confusing, and for the most part don't understand why people put themselves through all of this medical intervention when you could very happily just suck cock or bump pussies

[quote]pre-pubescent children in general are being pressured to make life decisions about gender

They're not.

[quote]Sorry, but I find it all very confusing

And yet you're giving us your opinion as if it's fact and common sense and what everyone should be thinking.

[quote] and for the most part don't understand why people put themselves through all of this medical intervention when you could very happily just suck cock or bump pussies

Because being trans isn't the same as being gay. If someone said "I don't understand why you wouldn't just transition instead of sucking cock" to you, you would have a complete and total emotional meltdown about it.

R69 is so very, very special.

In other words, r70, you have no actual response.

I agree with everything he wrote. Queerness has become a cult with the tell-tale paranoia, the vilification of apostates, the proselytizing, and the disregard of the (hard) sciences.

[quote] If someone said "I don't understand why you wouldn't just transition instead of sucking cock" to you, you would have a complete and total emotional meltdown about it.

R69 No, I'd just wonder why they're so retarded.

I believe gender confusion is rare and what we are seeing now is a bunch of confused kids being pushed in a direction that would have, under normal circumstances, just worked itself out.

But what I don't believe is that all of this gender nonsense and trans stuff is having blowback on gay men and women. Meaning that these gender and trans movements are not causing people to hate the gays. I believe they always hated us, they still hate us, and will continue hating us. They may tolerate us, but they wish we weren't a thing.

As for the whole gay erasure thing. They can't erase you if you don't let them erase you. If you're a gay man and someone calls you a "queer" man, you stand up for yourself and you stand up for who you are. Stop rolling over. If you are a grown ass gay person and are being bullied by the queer police into silence, then whose fault is that?

R74 Stonewall's Diversity Champions Programme has meant that a gay man objecting to being called "queer" actually gets him in trouble because he's "not being considerate of other identities".

Where is this article? Might someone post it or it’s title. I googled Andrew Sullivan gay erasure and came up with lots of hits and I’d like to know which one us being discussed.

Sullivan links to a few pieces that were very good, such as this:

“The trans question: In 2017, at the age of 33, I enrolled at Columbia University, New York to complete my undergraduate degree. There, I was shocked to discover how gay activism had evolved since marriage equality became the law of the land. The focus was now entirely on personal pronouns and on being ‘queer’. My classmates labelled me ‘cis’, short for cisgender. I didn’t even know what it meant. All I knew was that they called me ‘cis’ in the same cadence that the seventh graders had called me ‘fag’.

Soon, I learned about nonbinary identities, and that some people – many people – were literally arguing that sex, not gender, was a social construct. I met people who evangelised a denomination of transgenderism that I had never heard of, one that included people who had never been gender dysphoric and who had no desire to medically transition. I met straight people whose ‘trans / nonbinary’ identities seemed to be defined by their haircuts, outfits and inchoate politics. I met straight women with Grindr accounts, and listened to them complain about the ‘transphobic’ gay men who didn’t want to have sex with women.

All around me, it seemed, straight people were spontaneously identifying into my community and then policing our behaviours and customs. I began to think that this broadening of the ‘trans’ and ‘queer’ umbrella was giving a hell of a lot of people a free pass to express their homophobia.”

R76 It's linked to in the first post.

From the article: "We are all now just bigots with “genital preferences,” just like the Christianist right used to claim."

"If a Christianist hospital was busy changing the sexes of overwhelmingly gay kids, so that they became straight, what do you think the gay rights establishment would say? But when a queer facility does exactly that, all the worriers are bigots."

"Just as the religious right told gay men to get used to liking vaginas, so too does the queer left. And just as the Christianists told us we weren’t men, so too do the queers."

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding!

The Religious Right got smart, destroyed the Left and replaced it with an anti-gay Religious fanatical version of the Left. But most people are too dumb to notice this.

Read AF Alexander's book about the Christian Right and it's desire, since the early 70s the control every aspect of society in the US from entertainment to education.

It as been erased by those who don’t want you to read it.

[quote] Stonewall's Diversity Champions Programme has meant that a gay man objecting to being called "queer" actually gets him in trouble because he's "not being considerate of other identities".

Why do you care? Why does what that group think matter to you?

R81 because it directly affects me.

The article again:

[quote] How many of us fought and died and are still dealing with that, and the ripple effects of growing up with major homophobia. Could that get a little attention too? I'm a gay man in my mid-40s and feel like 25% an enemy within my own movement, which is too much.

Do correct me if I’m wrong, and don’t take this question as justification on my part, but: didn’t a similar schism also happen during Stonewall? The pacifistic Mattachine Society, comprised of older and mostly white affluent gay men, didn’t exactly align or agree with the instigating protest methods of the more violent young racially and sexually-admixed crowd who were taking to the streets.

Common stories and experiences are what makes and bonds a community. As much as I like to dish and make bitchy comments, the main reason I come to DL is for the shared experience and knowing people will get me and I will get them. Physical places for gay men & women are nearly extinct and digital places are few and far between.

[quote] because it directly affects me. The article again:

How does anything the Stonewall's Diversity Champions Programme does directly affect YOU. The article doesn't tell me that.

R85 The article was posted for the person who wanted to see it a few posts up.

OK, so two separate unrelated thoughts to r82. Still leaves me not know how Stonewall's Diversity Champions Programme directly affects anyone.

R87 It operates in my workplace and it's fucking malignant.

[quote]The pacifistic Mattachine Society, comprised of older and mostly white affluent gay men, didn’t exactly align or agree with the instigating protest methods of the more violent young racially and sexually-admixed crowd who were taking to the streets.

Eldergay here, again. When I was a young gay man in the 1970s, I knew several older gays who had been active in Mattachine. Yes, they were white and relatively affluent, by which I mean they had good jobs and careers that could easily have ended if they were identified publicly as gay. Some belonged to Mattachine under pseudonyms. It is difficult for younger people to understand the terror of institutional homophobia in those days, and the fear that kept gay men and lesbians in the closet.

Linking to this Onion article from 2001 I still remember because it reiterates a philosophy about homosexuality I had when coming to terms with my own in the late 90s, that it represented a nonconformist lifestyle

I think marriage equality eliminated that and now (which is why this is so pronounced with young queer people) they are still chasing that glamour and excitement of nonconformity and now charging at the windmills of gender ideology

The only gay erasure comes from magas.

republicans are our true enemy

Also from the Onion, from 1998:

“ Emmonds credited much of the recruiting success to the gay lobby's infiltration of America's public schools, where programs promoting the homosexual lifestyle are regularly presented to children as young as 5.

"It's crucial that we reach these kids while they're still young," Emmonds said. "That's when they're most vulnerable to our message of sexual promiscuity and deviance."

"When I grow up, I want to be gay," said Christopher Linn, 8, a second-grader at Philadelphia's Lakeside Elementary School, one of thousands of public schools nationwide that actively promote the homosexual agenda. "I don't want to have a family or go to church."

Additionally, the revulsion of Pete Buttigieg in 2020 was coming from young people.

So maybe they don’t hate “gayness”, they just hate conformity and the respectability politics of the post-gay marriage world.

[quote]The Religious Right got smart, destroyed the Left and replaced it with an anti-gay Religious fanatical version of the Left. But most people are too dumb to notice this.

Wrong. The radical left is sui generis and grew out of the rebranding of Marxism after the WWII as critical social justice. It didn't happen overnight so when people today ask themselves, how did we get here, they often miss the real history and context.

Read up on Marcuse and the influence of Critical Theory on the postwar left in the U.S. Basically CT had to admit the working class wasn't going to rebel against capitalism because it also benefitted from its enrichment - it's no wonder that the Marxist-Leninist communist revolutions were carried out in largely rural peasant societies like Tzarist Russia and China. So they decided that the so-called marginalized groups were the real bearers of revolutionary conscience, and started the train of postmodern splinter identity politics based on race, gender, etc.

That's why the Left today is least concerned with working class issues, especially the white working class. It's all about 'intersectionality' aka the hierarchical ranking of the oppression of identities, and allocating power to the 'most oppressed' which in that ranking are groups like 'trans women of color'.

The Religious Right played their own game but they weren't the generator of the current radical Left. Trying to pin it on the Right is missing the forest for the trees.

The inTRANSanity is spreading

[quote]The only gay erasure comes from magas.

Not according to the Trans ideology's falsification of history that Stonewall was the act of 'trans women of color'.

Not according to the review of the Tavistock Clinic practices. Not according to the gender ideologues and activists who shout that sex is a construct and gays are 'gender fetishists'.

[quote]Still leaves me not know how Stonewall's Diversity Champions Programme directly affects anyone.

Clearly you didn't even bother to google it to understand what it is in the first place.

[quote] Clearly you didn't even bother to google it to understand what it is in the first place.

Because it has absolutely no impact on me.

I dont give a shit about it or "gender ideologues and activists." No one in the real world does.

OP here. One thing I’ll say is that this is a very complex topic. There are few settled facts or opinions, and nobody really knows how far this trans movement is going.

I do agree with a lot of what Andrew Sullivan says. I don’t know enough to agree or disagree with all of it. And I appreciate the willingness of posters here to explore the issue without reverting to reflexive name calling or base political tribalism.

[quote]The trans question

If you get to the point where you're debating whether certain people should exist or not, you've lost the plot.

Gays and Lesbians just asked for acceptance. They gained that through visibility and political influence. You’ve accepted us? Great, now we’ll leave you alone.

This next gen wants so much more. They want me and everyone to continuously declare my pronouns in all progressional forums so that someone somewhere supposedly won’t feel excluded. Fuck that. It is exhausting and just plain stupid. I refuse.

[quote]Because it has absolutely no impact on me.

Everyone in a government or a corporate job, or a business which takes loans, is impacted by any variation of these programs.

R94 makes a very good point about how the New Left reframed politics

The gay rights movement sprang from the New Left, but after the counterculture lifestyle was decimated by the AIDS epidemic, the movement pivoted to embrace capitalism and conformity

Similarly, the current social fractures over transgender theory stem from that contingent’s efforts to embrace capitalism and conformity ( ie Dylan Mulvaney). As Pride month is now a sexless celebration of corporations, transgenderism has evolved from nonconformity- I don’t want to conform to the gender I was born into - into an act of constant capitalist engagement and whitewashing (sex changes are now “lifesaving healthcare”), and a constant seeking of establishment affirmation (Lia Thomas).

This pronoun thing. It’s forcing people to repeatedly validate questionable ideology. And has no demonstrated value. And for those of you who work for large global organizations, you know it is true that these DEIB ERGs are taking over and absolutely nobody has the power to stop them. Line leaders won’t. HR won’t. The white male CEOs can’t because they’re afraid for their own heads. DEI loonies have infiltrated the inner workings of my organization and it’s awful for everyone. The reverse power dynamic is disordered and somewhat evil.

Interesting r103

[quote]If you get to the point where you're debating whether certain people should exist or not, you've lost the plot.

Nobody has made this point but thanks for chiming in with strawmen.

What people object to is the indoctrination of CHILDEN into a radical theory of gender, and creating lifelong medical patients out of healthy kids. And that when parents question what's happening, they're scapegoated and even legally attacked.

There are by now many examples of young detransitioners who were made to believe they were trans, and then came to realize they were not but by that time the medical damage was already done. There are also many examples (youtube it) of kids who were made to believe they were trans and then desisted from that idea on their own volition after simply being removed by their parents from the indoctrinating environment.

In no particular order:

1. I have no idea why The Trans™ have become Team Woke's favorite oppressed minority but they are. On Progressive Twitter and BlueSky, "TERFs" are considered worse than "Nazis" and certainly many levels worse than just plan MAGAts.

2. That said, Team Woke is but a tiny subset of the population, albeit one that is very online. They do not speak for more than a few thousand people, though others (celebrities and politicians) seem loathe to cross them.

3. I work with many Zoomers and younger Millennials at a boutique consulting firm. They are very liberal Democrats, went to top colleges, generally grew up in very liberal suburbs. Granted, I am their boss, but despite that, they have (usually after a few drinks) admitted that they don't get the whole Trans, "this is my pronoun" thing, that they and their friends roll their eyes at it and that most believe that the vast majority of trans and enbies are just acting out, that the kids they know who ID as such were also druggies or anorexics or depressed or something else and don't seem any happier or more together in their new identity and that many do decide that it was a phase. Good news is that they are very supportive of gays and gay rights, have gay friends in their mostly-hetero friend groups and don't think twice about it.

4. I think there are actual transgender people, but not nearly as many as the activists would have us believe. I also think there is a difference between very femme gay boys who want to become women and date men, and Bruce Jenner who wants to wear a dress but be a lesbian.

5. "BiPOC" has never worked because Latinos do not think of themselves as aligned with Blacks. Most Latinos, especially Mexicans and South Americans, think of themselves as white. In fact, many of the South Americans are white in that they have primarily European heritage. But one key thing driving them to the GOP camp is Team Woke's insistence in lumping them together with Black people. [Remember that most Latin American societies are more racist than rural Alabama.]

6. The trans, "people with uteruses" thing is especially harmful for two reasons; (a) while most Americans knew someone who was gay or lesbian, they don't know any trans, and (b) the Mao-ist nature of Team Woke's actions, e.g. an 80 year old who accidentally says "she" instead of "they" is not a Nazi.

^^Left out Cubans from #5 at R107 - Cubans are not happy to be called "not white"

R98 Then you are even more stupid than you've already demonstrated. Your complete unwillingness to understand or even consider what other people are saying in this thread is illustrative of the general discourse that's to be had with anyone who drinks the gender ideology kool-aid. It's impossible.

[quote] So maybe they don’t hate “gayness”, they just hate conformity and the respectability politics.

cf. every angry, frustrated and lonely reactionary teenager ever to exist.

It's really a pity and quite disturbing that today's normal teenage miserabilism and angst is being coopted, commercialised and turn against young people by insidious !ndustrial complexes. Not to 'in my day' (fuck me, can't believe I'm already old enough to be saying that at age 30), but not so long ago teens uncomfortable with embodiment (one such that I was) just listened to a lot of Linkin Park, talked a lot about death on MySpace, watched a lot of gory anime and made friends with Gillette blades--which is not necessarily a good use of one's youth, but far preferable to being conned into lifelong medfet.

Turns out, there is no Kyur for the Ich. You just have to live through this, try to grow and age as best you can, and see what's on the other side.

[quote]Similarly, the current social fractures over transgender theory stem from that contingent’s efforts to embrace capitalism and conformity ( ie Dylan Mulvaney). As Pride month is now a sexless celebration of corporations, transgenderism has evolved from nonconformity- I don’t want to conform to the gender I was born into - into an act of constant capitalist engagement and whitewashing (sex changes are now “lifesaving healthcare”), and a constant seeking of establishment affirmation (Lia Thomas).

It was the mission of CT to take over capitalism from within by co-opting corporations into critical social justice because it was not about working class economic struggle any more, and by their theory the working class had become irrelevant. The capture went from the universities - at first it was the humanities and social sciences, now the 'decolonization' and social constructivism has captured even biology and mathematics - and into the other cultural and social institutions and government. That's basically the genesis of the 'corporate social responsibility' imperative in the corporate world which you'd think will be impermeable to the 'woke' but turns out it isn't at all, and the rush to elevate the Dylan Mulvaneys and Lia Thomases as some modern Jean D'Arcs.

No, moron at R16, someone who you don't agree with is pointing out the problem with the far left "queer" movement and how it's actually homophobic and hurting gay rights.

I know this is probably going ot make your little brain explode, but someone who has opinions you don't agree witth can also have something to say that is actually true, regardless of those other opinions.

[quote] Everyone in a government or a corporate job, or a business which takes loans, is impacted by any variation of these programs.

Any variation of these programs? What other programs are you talking about? Because in none of my jobs have I ever been forced to call myself "queer." Which was the claim that started this exchange. Remember?

[quote] a gay man objecting to being called "queer" actually gets him in trouble because he's "not being considerate of other identities".

[Quote] Sullivan's key point is that pre-pubescent children in general are being pressured to make life decisions about gender.

They’re not. It completely invalidates his article when he starts with this BS.

Andrew Sullivan wrote something that reinforces your prejudices against trans people.

Congratulations. Here's a cookie.

Meanwhile you're all happily in bed with christian nationalists who fully intend to ban your gay ass next.

Again, congratulations.

some people apparently are under the impression that straight people don't push gender onto their kids... I clearly remember being signed up for sports when I was younger even though I hated them and it 100% wasn't my idea

"I just wish that you'd read the article and seriously debate Mr. Hitler's thoughts about the Jewish Question without resorting to childish name-calling."

^^^^^

Are we [italic]sure[/italic] he identified as a boy, R118?

R119 A twat would be more accurate.

Of course straight people push gender conformity on their children, that’s what gender reveals are about

The problem is that this is not usually accompanied by hormones and surgery

The idea that children require hormones and medical intervention in order to “correct” their gender IS conversion therapy

The capitalist medical-industrial complex is creating a problem where one did not exist before

Queer people and their incessant need for validation from capitalism, are co-signing on conversion therapy

We are creating “transgender children” when that has never existed before. There were only gender nonconforming children. Instead of embracing gender nonconformity, we are allowing the capitalist imperative, to buy your way at out of unhappiness, dictate the direction of the movement. The fact that capitalism was so quick to embrace transgender ideology is enough for you to pause to consider that there is something very wrong with it.

r99 It’s not that complex. Gay men and women are now stuck with this new umbrella because there is nowhere else to go. I’m more interested in the future:

“We are going to have to disown and distance ourselves from this nihilist extremism.

This won’t be easy, and may be impossible. Negative polarization means that each extreme, on right and left, can get away with stuff previously unthinkable — because the alternative is the evil other. To be a gay person and dissent from this assault on homosexuality means brutal personal attacks, social media pile-ons, violence, de-platforming, and cancellation. And the homophobic and transphobic right is on the other side in many ways, with some eager to whip up hatred of gays, so we dissidents have to steel ourselves for the usual claims of treason and hate. In this culture war paradigm, I have almost no hope that gayness, and especially gay kids, can survive both the queer and the Republican onslaught.

But I can’t in good conscience stay silent when I spent a lifetime attempting to defend the simple existence of the normie gay from the bigots on the far right and the fanatics on the far left. This emphatically doesn’t mean eroding trans people’s civil rights. We should oppose vigorously any such thing. We should counter hostility and prejudice toward trans people. We should treat gay kids and kids with gender dysphoria with tenderness, care, and love. We would legislate only where it is absolutely the last and only option.

But we have to be insistent that the gay experience is distinct and different and not intrinsically connected to either queer ideology or the trans experience. We have to demand that children’s bodies — gay, straight, trans, gender-conforming and gender-nonconforming — be left alone. And we must do all we can to make sure that the trans-queer revolution does not result in what it seems to be moving toward: the eradication of homosexuality from public life.”

Wordy as always, but correct.

And a reminder that Gessen is an autistic nut lost in her own mind

[Quote] Of course straight people push gender conformity on their children, that’s what gender reveals are about. The problem is that this is not usually accompanied by hormones and surgery

Either are trans kids. First, it’s the kids that start the conversation. No parent is pushing trans on their kids. Second, starting hormones is rare surgery is even rarer, almost nonexistent in minors.

Hormone and surgery are reserved for the most severe cases. The right is lying when it proclaims that all trans kids are getting castrated. All bull shit

[Quote] Wordy as always, but correct

Wordy and uninformed.

R122, I’m guessing you don’t have any friends. You sound exhausting

[quote] made friends with Gillette blades

R110, I hope this doesn't mean cutting, but if it does, I hope it's something that's long in the past for you. I know it sounds easy to say, and I know I don't know you, but don't ever hurt yourself. From this one post of yours alone one can readily infer that you have superior intelligence, which leads me to another thing: why, God, why is it that the most brilliant minds always suffer to the extreme regarding, well, everything? It's the curse of awareness, as in understanding things more and being more highly aware of yourself and your surroundings, compared to your peers. Are you intelligent? Here's a boatload of pain for you - so goes the universe.

Fuck this. I'll extrapolate and say that, also judging from your post, you must not only be superiorly intelligent, but also quite good-looking, and generally surrounded by idiots (in real life, not on DL). Am I right?

Well, excuse my crankiness, but damn all this fuckery.

R127 thank you. Euphemistically, you are on the money. Thankfully that phase of my adolescence was very short-lived and is now long-past, though friends & peers of mine have not been so fortunate. Millennials catch a lot of flack, but having seen the generation grow and change from the inside, it may surprise some to know that we have a great resilience (with which we'll never be credited). It takes guts to survive being raised and educated by money-grubbing, narcissistic Boomers.

While I thank you for the compliments, it makes me uncomfortable to claim any kind of higher or greater intelligence or awareness, and I must demur--like anyone, I have intellectual strengths and weaknesses, insights and blind spots. I had the privilege of excellent secondary schooling, which certainly helped. The view I take of mental acumen and wellness aligns loosely with the controversial Laing school.

Perhaps most notably I'm high-functioning autistic, and let's just say comments of the sort from R123 are commonplace to hear and endure for me and others like me, even today with increased campaigns for acceptance. Notice there's no mass media or multi-billion corporate industry backing for ASD rights in the specific, though our profile seems somewhat elevated of late. Note also that there's currently no highly-marketable 'cure' or dodgy 'treatment' for us beyond vague pseudo-spiritual homeopathy pushed by Gurus & Frau mothers. These are not mutually exclusive facts. It's a glimpse of the con. (Watch this space though for some dreadful and damaging iatrogenic weapon levelled against us, coming soon...)

So long as our society considers autistics, gays, liberals, spinsters, weirdos and the like as traditionally unproductive and unprofitable--unlike perverts who pay out the door for access to kids to nonce and carve up, celebrities buying kids or wombs to pimp out for pap opportunities, or undesirables to manhunt and eat, or whatever dreadful fetishes they enact--then we shall be scapegoated as a caste and left to rot by money-men. This grim reality more than ever ought to prompt us all to take these wounded children to our chests and go underground, salvage our communities and cleave together. Because we aren't going to be safe in this brave new world.

What

Wondering how many of the anti-trans lunatics here are also on the spectrum?

Because I keep hearing the same patently false GOP talking points spouted by rote over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and

OVER.

Yeah, r130, and we keep hearing over and over about we're spouting GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points and GOP talking points, even though most of us have never GOP'ed in our entire lives.

Then why do you keep spouting GOP talking points, doll?

I mean if you want to deny you're in bed with Christian nationalists, that's your business.

But you are. That's the simple truth.

And when Christian nationalists come to put you in re-education camps I'm sure you'll tell them you're not like those icky trans people.

I'm sure that'll work out just great for you.

Pro tip: y'all want to pretend to have the teensiest rhetorical distance from GOP talking points maybe don't provide links to the

[bold]FREE MOTHERFUCKING REPUBLIC[/bold].

R135 You can scream "GOP talking points" as many times as you like but the fact is A LOT of us gays have come to our conclusions by ourselves from observing what's been happening over several years.

R136 Exactly. Being gay is who I go to bed with. be trans is who you wake up as.

Are you having a meltdown, r130? Maybe some stimming will calm you down

I gotta say, the anti-transactivists on this thread have laid out a few arguments, while their opponents have only tossed out invective and accusations of guilt-by-association. So, here anyway, they lose.

"Arguments"? Is that what we're calling warmed-over talking points pulled from the fever dreams of GOP thinktanks and Christian activists?

At any rate, "your side" is winning in the US due to the lobbying efforts of "Do No Harm", who write the language for anti-trans legislation dutifully copied into GOP-sponsored legislation.

You're not "winning the argument", you've just got a more organized hate movement behind you.

R124, is lying

Fucking trannies are giving me a headache.

[quote] and all they did was change to using only the initialism "GLAAD," which wasn't much of a name change at all.

That changes the entire fucking thing, you moron. It no longer stands for GAY and LESBIAN. They did it for trannies.

[quote] Either are trans kids. First, it’s the kids that start the conversation. No parent is pushing trans on their kids.

Oh, dear. And you’re an idiot.

There are so many videos of parents coaching their kids. One mother was there convincing their 3 year old son that he was a girl. The kid had no idea what they were talking about and just went along with it. Bill Maher talked about his own witnessing of this. It’s Munchausen’s by Proxy. These mothers get attention from having trans kids. They get applauded and told how courageous they are.

The slobbering trans-hate troll cunts are out in force again today. Won't be long before we are on weeks of prime time again.

There’s a TikTok series of a gay father parading his 7 year old trans daughter around. It’s incredibly disturbing.

On Libs of TikTok R147?

It's funny how all of the anti-gay posters can't muster up pne single argument.

[quote] I DO NOT NEED A PENIS TO BE A MAN.

[quote] So a penis wouldn’t define you as a man, but your breast did define you as a woman?

Harvard's FTM swimmer Schuyler Bailar perfectly illustrates the left and institutions' very "proud" homophobia, homo/gay-erasure, pro- gay conversion therapy.

^.

[quote]It's funny how all of the anti-gay posters can't muster up pne single argument.

How about "you're an illiterate transphobe who's being exploited as a useful idiot by the Christian Right"?

I'd call that a sober assertion of fact.

The stench of Chaya Raichik is strong on this thread.

So no, Libs of Tiktok enthusiasts, I don't have to "debate" you since I don't argue with lunatics.

Andrew is right. Don't knock the message because you don't like the messenger. The cis/fake trans/binary BS are trying to minimize the culture of gay men. They want to push us down the totem pole so they can "thrive" with their dresses and hormones. ANOTHER ARTICLE from someone else.

R146, that's okay. The Founding Fathers taught us that we have to fight for our rights. That includes freedom of speech and freedom FROM religion. There will always be people like you trying to take these rights away.

DL is a rare gay "space" where there is at least some debate on this issue. In much of the rest of the gay world, you have got to toe the line: even silence isn't an option, as you must state your pronouns, etc. It's alienated me from the gay community before I even had the chance to embed myself in it. Oh, well - etiam si omnes, ego non.

50 years old gay man. I have never called anyone THEY in my life and I never will. You can try to normalize your (No Boobs/ Bulge in Dress) womanhood fantasy but don't expect me to participate.

52 yo gay man here r157. I work in a creative industry and all of a sudden have three THEYS in my office.

One HE/THEY One SHE/THEM One THEY/THEM

I wish they’d just pick a lane. The whole “they” thing seems like total BS. And I hate how they’ve forced us all to start using it.

The younger generation have zero knowledge of gay history. They are actually feeding into the old bigoted stereotypes of "evil gays want children". Trans are walking right into it. Within 5 years they will demolish every gay protection the LGBT fought for in the decades since Stonewall. The Trans Community is giving the bigots everything they need to vilify ALL gays.

This is JUST like when the right said gay marriage would make marriage meaningless.

Marriage erasure

This is JUST like when the right said gay marriage would make marriage meaningless.

Marriage erasure

Drop the T! They are erasing LGB rights.

Drop the T, as in Troll

How we never hear Whites say "Drop the Irish!" or Blacks says "Drop the Haitians!"

Because they know the political value of numbers.

^^^ Go dilate, tranny whore.

[quote] Because they know the political value of numbers.

The "political value" of Trannies fucking over gay rights. Exhibit A: "Don't say gay bill" which was a reaction to trannies in schools over-reaching and of course them hiding behind gays and renaming the bill "don't say gay".

[quote] The "political value" of Trannies fucking over gay rights. Exhibit A: "Don't say gay bill" which was a reaction to trannies in schools over-reaching and of course them hiding behind gays and renaming the bill "don't say gay".

The bill specifically mentions "sexual orientation." It copies Russian and Hungarians laws that say the same thing. It's a reaction to hating ALL LGBT

T is a Trojan horse when it comes to "the political value of numbers", R164. They're ridden us gays all the way into everything and now they're using us a political human shield. It doesn't matter how much the "gay" rep suffers just so long as the T is protected.

[quote] The bill specifically mentions "sexual orientation." It copies Russian and Hungarians laws that say the same thing. It's a reaction to hating ALL LGBT

It specifically mentions BOTH "gender identity" and "sexual orientation", but

1. It was a reaction to lawsuits from parents in FL suing schools over pushing GENDER IDENTITY 2. GLAAD and HRC spent the last 15 years "teaching" people that Ts are "part o LGBT" thus the repubs included both in the bill 3. The Trannies and their ilk renamed the bill "don't say GAY" even though it was catalyzed by trannies.

So STFU and read the history.

[quote] 1. It was a reaction to lawsuits from parents in FL suing schools over pushing GENDER IDENTITY

It's yet another attempt for the GOP to use culture wars to win elections. The law is modeled after the Russian and Hungarian laws--neither of which has anything to do with trans.

If it were just about trans, the law would have said so. The GOP has never stopped being anti-LGBT. Heck it's even in the GOP's official platform.

THAT is the history, you numbskull.

No moron. The bill was in reaction to specific lawsuits about trans grooming in schools.

Dropping the T would be detrimental to the survival of this political group--and that's been the stated goal of the GOP for a long time.

We now know that all this "Drop the T" bullshit is being funded by a few lobbyists. It's obvious the trolls are being paid to push the same thing on DL. When your language matches that of the Buffalo terrorist exactly, you know it's the same source

More 'historoy" moron R170

[quote] No moron. The bill was in reaction to specific lawsuits about trans grooming in schools.

No, that;s what the GOP claims, of course, but the anti-trans stuff started with the bathroom bills. Once corporations pushed back, the right just retooled and made it all about "Save the children"

[quote] No moron. The bill was in reaction to specific lawsuits about trans grooming in schools.

And you think those lawsuits weren't part of the strategy? Of course you did because you're part of the strategy too

No, you're wrong. this is waht started "don't say GAY" ...misnamed by the trannies

[quote] And you think those lawsuits weren't part of the strategy?

And were the teachers pushing trans ideology onto kids "part of the strategy" too? were they GOP plants?

The GOP has said it wants to divide the LGBT coalition for a long while. Drop the T is an attempt to do just that

[quote] And were the teachers pushing trans ideology onto kids "part of the strategy" too? were they GOP plants?

No one pushed trans ideology on anyone. Teachers just respected what their students want to be viewed as. they tried to help when the parents would not.

^^^ Stop blaming all your problems on GOPs and using the "they hate us ALL" screeching, trannie whores!

Lots of GAYS, LESBIANS and regular "cis" WOMEN are sick of your bullshit!!!! Stop hiding behind Gay Rights.

You're over reached.

[quote] No, you're wrong. this is waht started "don't say GAY" ...misnamed by the trannies

Not misnamed because you literally cannot say Gay in the classroom up to 8th grade at this point.

[quote] No one pushed trans ideology on anyone. Teachers just respected what their students want to be viewed as. they tried to help when the parents would not.

Well, now you've dropped the mask and we can all see what you're all about.

Apparently you think it's OK for K-3 children to be read "I am Jazz" and told they can "switch genders".

Guess what? Reality and most people on Earth don't agree.

But thanks for showing your true colors.

[quote] ^^^ Stop blaming all your problems on GOPs and using the "they hate us ALL" screeching, trannie whores! Lots of GAYS, LESBIANS and regular "cis" WOMEN are sick of your bullshit!!!! Stop hiding behind Gay Rights. You're over reached.

It's ONLY the GOP passing these laws and DeSantis is trying to take that hatred to the White House. The GOP is the problem. The GOP has always hated gays and used us politically with AIDS, gay marriage, and now "saving the children."

Who are the "lots of gays, lesbians..etc"? We all see this as the GOP dividing America and using us as its wedge,

[quote] Apparently you think it's OK for K-3 children to be read "I am Jazz" and told they can "switch genders".

What K-3 is reading I am Jazz? Oh, none of them, but keep on trolling.

[quote] Not misnamed because you literally cannot say Gay in the classroom up to 8th grade at this point.

Wow, the hormones have really affected your brain, or you were just really stupid to start.

1. The bill does not say "you can't say gay". that was bullshit PR that you fucked up trannies came up with. It says you can't "teach about gender identity or sexual orientation" in the classroom to K-3. If you bothered to, you know, READ THE FUCKING BILL.

2. If a gay teacher gets in trouble for mentioning his husband, then so would a str8 teacher for mentioning his wife. The bill says "sexual orientation" (and gender identity) and Heterosexuality is also a "sexual orientation". It does not specifically single out "GAYS".

[quote] Apparently you think it's OK for K-3 children to be read "I am Jazz" and told they can "switch genders".

I think it's okay for K-3 to read And Tango Makes Three, but the right has banned that because it may ruin children forever

Milky Loads is a self-hating gay who simps for anti-gay Republicans

Made a living lecturing gay men for being promiscuous while being promiscuous AND seeking out unprotected sex

[quote] Wow, the hormones have really affected your brain, or you were just really stupid to start.

Stop this crap. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a transsexual. Jesus, you are a tedious asshole.

[quote] The bill does not say "you can't say gay". that was bullshit PR that you fucked up trannies came up with. It says you can't "teach about gender identity or sexual orientation" in the classroom to K-3. If you bothered to, you know, READ THE FUCKING BILL.

The bill is purposely extremely vague. It NEVER defines "instruction." When books get banned from libraries, gay teachers get to ld to remove pictures of their spouses, and teachers get investigated for even showing a Disney film that includes a gay character--the law is working as intended.

Keep everyone confused so no one says gay at all.

[quote] If a gay teacher gets in trouble for mentioning his husband, then so would a str8 teacher for mentioning his wife. The bill says "sexual orientation" (and gender identity) and Heterosexuality is also a "sexual orientation". It does not specifically single out "GAYS".

While gay teachers have specifically been told not to mention their spouses and to remove pictures of their spouses, how many straight teachers have been told the same?

ZERO.

Yes, straight is also sexual orientation and I hope parents are preparing lawsuit if ANY book that shows straight people is read to kids

[quote] gay teachers get to ld to remove pictures of their spouses,

If that actuslly happened, they should sue to have str8 teachers remove pictures of their spouses.

[quote] If a gay teacher gets in trouble for mentioning his husband, then so would a str8 teacher for mentioning his wife.

Oh yes, I'm sure that will happen.....

What planet do you think this is????

[quote] Stop this crap. Not everyone who disagrees with you is a transsexual. Jesus, you are a tedious asshole.

And not every person (especially gays and lesbians) who are sick of trannie bullshit is a RUSSIAN, a TROLL or a REPUBLICAN.

See how that works?

[quote] Apparently you think it's OK for K-3 children to be read "I am Jazz" and told they can "switch genders".

No one is switching genders. They are just the gender they always felt they were.

Just like gays don't switch sexual orientation.

[quote] And not every person (especially gays and lesbians) who are sick of trannie bullshit is a RUSSIAN, a TROLL or a REPUBLICAN.

Sure, but you are.

[quote] See how that works?

Yes, you are doing exactly what you hate other people doing.

^^^ Wow, you sure told me!

Funny how the right runs on parents rights---EXCEPT parents can't determine what their kids are exposed to in school and parents cant take their kids to see drag performers.

How convenient

[quote] ^^^ Wow, you sure told me!

Can you translate that from Russian for us?

Gays aren't being erased, in fact it's young people who are more likely to identify as gay and lesbian

The fact that you all are siding with a self-loather like Sullivan speaks volumes. Milo (who now identifies as an "ex-gay") is also big into the "Drop the T" stuff

[quote] No one is switching genders. They are just the gender they always felt they were.

Again, this says it all.

NEWSFLASH: most people on the planet consider this mental illness. So does biology.

(and before you can say "But, but...... being gay was once considered a mental illness!") it's not the same thing. So stop hiding behind us, trannies. We never tried to change reality.

[quote] most people on the planet consider this mental illness.

People also consider being gay a mental illness. Does that make it so?

[quote] Can you translate that from Russian for us?

How boring. You can't come up with anything more witty than that?? Seriously??

I'm off to the Mortimer Club because you're way too LIMITED.

[quote] (and before you can say "But, but...... being gay was once considered a mental illness!") it's not the same thing

It IS the same thing. How inconvenient for you

R202 is so stupid, you didn't even read my whole post! I already told you not to bring that up because it's not the same thing.

The level of stupidity here is really shocking.

[quote] NEWSFLASH: most people on the planet consider this mental illness.

You have no evidence of this.

[quote] So does biology.

Biology doesn't "consider" anything.

[quote] it's not the same thing

It is and you have provided no evidence it is not.

[quote] [R202] is so stupid, you didn't even read my whole post! I already told you not to bring that up because it's not the same thing.

OMG!! Troll says it's not the same thing so it mustn't be the same thing!!

It is, in fact, the same thing, which is terrible for your anti-trans argument

[quote] I already told you not to bring that up because it's not the same thing.

Who the fuck do you think you are that you get to dictate what people say? Fuck you, asshole.

You keep shouting about being silenced then turn around and try to silence someone else. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.

[quote] It IS the same thing. How inconvenient for you

I'll say it slowly this time since you're challenged.

Gays just want to fuck and love other gays. We don't want to change people's language, force our way into spaces, or tell str8 people they have to fuck us.

Trans want the other 99% of the world to indulge them in their fantasies that they are a different sex/gender than what they really are. To ignore basic biology. To call them different pronouns. To be allowed to compete against people of a different sex. For bio men to be housed in women's prisons. The list goes on.

It's not the same thing.

The absurd level of paranoia and gaslighting going on in this thread by TRA loons would be hilarious if it wasn't so pathetically sad.

*waits to be called a Russian Nazi TERF cunt again*

Psychiatrists don't consider homosexuality or transgenderism to be mental issues.

[quote] We don't want to change people's language

Seriously? Try explaining that to someone who insists MARRIAGE has always been between one man and one woman.

[quote] force our way into spaces

You mean, like jobs? neighborhoods? Yeah, gays forced their way in there too.

[quote] Gays just want to fuck and love other gays. We don't want to change people's language, force our way into spaces, or tell str8 people they have to fuck us.

Wow, that's complete gaslighting...as if gays have forgotten everything the right has accused us of.

We changed language by using the term Gay (The right still calls us "homosexuals" and often refuses to use "gay"). We forced our way into marriage and demanded that people use the terms husbands and wives to discuss our spouses.

The more "proof" you give, the more your rants against trans are the exact same rants used against gays.

All of a sudden, this thread is being filled up faster than Andrew Sullivan on a summer's night in Provincetown.

Sorry, Andrew S, no one is being erased. Heck, no one even cares about "gay spaces" but gays and we're keeping gay spaces.

[quote] We changed language by using the term Gay (The right still calls us "homosexuals" and often refuses to use "gay").

This is your defense? Wow. You really are stupid.

[quote] All of a sudden, this thread is being filled up faster than Andrew Sullivan on a summer's night in Provincetown.

Must be troll night at the Dick dock

R212 Now you're just reaching. It's a shame your arms are so short.

[quote] Now you're just reaching.

So no actual response then.

This thread should be proof that the drugs big Pharma is pushing on Trannies is seriously damaging to cognitive abilities!

[quote] This thread should be proof that the drugs big Pharma is pushing on Trannies is seriously damaging to cognitive abilities!

Except for the fact that the people arguing for transpersons are not transpersons, you might have had a point.

^^ And you know that how???

[quote] This is your defense? Wow. You really are stupid.

Too bad you can't rebut proof that your original assertation that somehow trans are asking for something more than gays were asking for.

All you can come up with is "You are really stupid." Every accusation is actually a confession, Boris

[quote] ^^ And you know that how???

Because I am one of the posters and I am not trans.

It's the Russian trolls who ultimate resort to vague "You're stupid!" "You're an idiot!' "Is that the best your can do?"

R221 Wait, did you just assume other people's gender? I am reporting you to TRA headquarters.

I already did, moron.

The problem is, your "rebuttal" was laughable.

But again, since you're slow, GAYS DON"T ASK PEOLE TO DENY REALITY. MEN CANOT BECOME WOMAN. IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE. MEN CAN FUCK OTHER MEN. IT'S LITERALLY POSSIBLE.

[quote ] It's the Russian trolls who ultimate resort to vague "You're stupid!" "You're an idiot!' "Is that the best your can do?"

Yes, Russian trolls who are familiar with Barbara Thorndyke, the Mortimer club, gay abbreviations on Grindr like "str8", and have bitchy attitude that they teach at Russian troll school.

[quote] Wait, did you just assume other people's gender? I am reporting you to TRA headquarters.

You mean like the anti-trans brigade assumes everyone they argue with is trans? Except I know myself.

R229 NO-one assumes anything about obvious head-cases such as yourself.

[quote] NO-one assumes anything about obvious head-cases such as yourself.

There is literally evidence of such assumptions in several posts above.

[quote] I already did, moron.

Typical troll ad hominem

[quote] But again, since you're slow, GAYS DON"T ASK PEOLE TO DENY REALITY. MEN CANOT BECOME WOMAN. IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE. MEN CAN FUCK OTHER MEN. IT'S LITERALLY POSSIBLE.

Um, the right has forever accused us of "choosing to be gay" It's not real. No one can switch sexual orientation! We were born with that, given to us by God.

You are using the EXACT same logic to pretend trans can't exist.

See how that works?

[quote] GAYS DON"T ASK PEOLE TO DENY REALITY.

You are asking us to deny the reality that you are a troll, likely funded by the exact same lobbyists funding the anti-trans crusades.

In the last election, you were spouting anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant BS because THOSE were the GOP talking points of the cycle

[quote] Yes, Russian trolls who are familiar with Barbara Thorndyke, the Mortimer club, gay abbreviations on Grindr like "str8", and have bitchy attitude that they teach at Russian troll school.

Only Russian trolls would actually know who those people are and use them as evidence of anything.

Even gays don't know who these fringe people are and not one person would use them as proof of anything,

This thread is so pointless. There is no talking with people so absolutely under the spell of a cult.

R214. Gay people.did not " force" our way into marriage, it was a long battle and the majority of the country had to agree with it first,

Trans people get their special privileges quietly and if anyone speaks up against it, they're shamed into oblivion. Their whole mantra is " no debate". That wouldnt have worked so well for us.

Drop the T and its devouring flag !

[Quote] Trans people get their special privileges quietly

What special privileges?

Just like gays want “special rights!”

[quote] Even gays don't know who these fringe people are and not one person would use them as proof of anything,

Obviously YOU are not gay if you don't know who Barbara Thorndyke is.

It's pretty laughable.

Now go dilate you fucking' tranny whore.

I am a gay man. The Trans contribute nothing to our cause. Go look at TikTok. They are telling the kids to trans. The fame whore parents are telling their kids they are trans at 4 years old. It's twisted. They are not a part of any community I belong to or want to belong to.

R239, the "right" to be housed In womens prisons, compete with women in sports,etc.

They also had the right to marry their same sex decades before gays could.

It is getting very old listening to Dudes-With-Dicks Lia and Dylan call everyone else Transphobic. Could you imagine your daughter playing sports her whole life to have a MAN steal her medals?

No man will ever know what it "feels like" to be a woman, ever, ever, ever. Period.

Aspiring and current MTFs, it is incumbent upon you to prove me wrong, not the other way around.

Good luck with that.

Two days. I'm finally caught up with this thread.

R245 I'm goin' out tonight, I'm feelin' alright. Gonna let it all hang out!

In big cities you see all these “queer friendly” establishments popping up. Allegedly these places serve as a “safe space” for “queers”, but they seem mostly populated by drab and unremarkable looking young Millennials. The kind of people you wouldn’t even notice if you passed them by. Why do these people think they’ll be harassed and singled-out in a regular bar or restaurant? They look like boring, left-wing heterosexuals.

[quote]Gay men and women are now stuck with this new umbrella

Trans were added to the LGBT coalition in the 1990s. This isn't new. It suits your agenda to pretend like it's a new change that must be fought against, rather than something settled decades ago that you're now trying to change.

The only people who buy into the anti-trans rhetoric are the bigots who don't care about the lies, and the uninformed and ignorant who are unaware that so much of what you're saying is a lie.

[quote]In big cities you see all these “queer friendly” establishments popping up. Allegedly these places serve as a “safe space” for “queers”, but they seem mostly populated by drab and unremarkable looking young Millennials. The kind of people you wouldn’t even notice if you passed them by.

You have been to multiple big cities and gone into several queer friendly establishments in each? And documented the people you saw therein? What a fascinating hobby.

[quote]Trans were added to the LGBT coalition in the 1990s. This isn't new. It suits your agenda to pretend like it's a new change that must be fought against, rather than something settled decades ago that you're now trying to change.

People may have rattled off the acronym but no-one ever meant anything by it other than "gay" or "gay and lesbian". Adding the T seemed like a harmless act of solidarity with a small, marginal group that seemed to share some of gay people's issues.

There weren't enough trans-identifying people for it to be an issue at the time though I remember wondering, when I was realising that I was gay, why the totally separate issue of gender identity had been grafted onto sexual orientation.

[quote]Too bad you can't rebut proof that your original assertation that somehow trans are asking for something more than gays were asking for.

Marriage is a social institution which was made up by humans, and as all social institutions subject to societal change. You are perfectly able to exist, and thrive in society, without participating in that institution. Other institutions which have rules about marriage (churches) are not forced by law to accept it. Biological sex is an innate characteristic which was not made up by humans and cannot be changed. Sexual orientation is also something you cannot really change.

Trans ideology centers on something called gender that is both 'innate' but that people are alo supposed to be able to change. Right here we have the first glaring contradiction in terms, and absolute incoherence. Then, we have another thing called 'gender identity' which non-trans people must also identify into - the 'cis' identity is forced upon them. Then the current iteration of transactivism says sex doesn't exist, only gender does. They say not only social institutions are constructed, the individual in all his/her entirety is also subject to (re)construction. People who don't agree with this concept (most of society) are being forced by legal and social pressure means to agree and conform. People who aren't mature enough to weigh in this concept and especially its consequences (kids) are being forced into it by both well meaning and activist educators from the early school years.

If you continue to claim 'it's the same thing', you are either feebleminded, brainwashed, or an ideologue.

[quote] I am a gay man. The Trans contribute nothing to our cause. Go look at TikTok. They are telling the kids to trans.

Because what happens on TikTok represents all trans? THAT's your proof?

Wow, what an imbecile you are.

No one is switching genders. They are just the gender they always felt they were"

This is BS.What do you say to the people who have transitioned that never were gender non- conforming at all or ever questioned their gender before they were introduced to the trans belief system?

[quote] This is BS.What do you say to the people who have transitioned that never were gender non- conforming at all or ever questioned their gender before they were introduced to the trans belief system?

Like gay men, they realized there was something to do based upon the way they felt. Otherwise they would have spent their lives deeply unsatisfied--just like trans and gays did for centuries.

[quote] This is BS.What do you say to the people who have transitioned that never were gender non- conforming at all or ever questioned their gender before they were introduced to the trans belief system?

Interesting that once the world understood there was something called trans, all 8 billion of us didn't suddenly decide to become trans. Funny how it's still consistently 0.3-0.6% of the population....

R256, it's larger than that, there are Informed consent gender clinics in every major city. And non binary are the majority of the trans community and they are definitely not included in the stat you cited.

Personally I didn't need to be exposed to a psuedoscientific extremist belief system to realized I liked guys but whatever.

[quote] Personally I didn't need to be exposed to a psuedoscientific extremist belief system to realized I liked guys but whatever.

yes, you are still gay whether you know there's something called homosexuality or not, whether you know there are other guys who like guys.

It's the same with trans. They have always felt they are in the wrong bodies, whether they know there are other trans people or not,

R258,No they didn't always feel wrong in their bodies. A lot of them never thought about it at all until they were exposed to trans beliefs,.

[quote] , it's larger than that

It's not. In study after study, the percentage stays consistent at 0.3 %- 0.6% of the population identify as trans.

It goes to show it IS very real and, despite the accusations that anyone is being groomed or that "trans ideology" is convincing innocent victims, it's all utter nonsense spewed for a political purpose.

[quote] Trans were added to the LGBT coalition in the 1990

That was for the old-school T's, like the ones in Paris Is Burning. Super femme drag queens or gay men who really wanted to be women.

Not the autogynephiles or other str8, married to women men (Dr Rachel Levie, the jeopardy champ) or fake trans like Lia Thomas and other bullies winning women's sports competitions.

And not to mention the bullshit QAI2sQ ad infinitum letters added since around 2020

R260, yet somehow every third teen is non binary. 🤷‍♂️

I'm weary of anything put forward by TRAs like yourself. You probably think puberty blockers are harmless and NO minor is getting surgery, don't you?

[quote] No one is switching genders. They are just the gender they always felt they were"

Then they wouldn't be "trans" now would they.

[quote] It's the same with trans. They have always felt they are in the wrong bodies, whether they know there are other trans people or not,

The definition of being mentally ill and in need of therapy for gender dysphoria.

[quote] And not to mention the bullshit QAI2sQ ad infinitum letters added since around 2020

Adding letters doesn't seem like a great strategy, but adding more categories of people IS a great strategy. More people mean more political power.

Just like Whites added Italians and Irish to the category. Now they are adding white Latinos.

......

[quote] Then they wouldn't be "trans" now would they.

Actually they would--they present originally like a certain gender but then "transition" to the gender they feel they really are.

[quote] The definition of being mentally ill and in need of therapy for gender dysphoria.

Ironic that gays were also once considered mentally ill.

[quote] I'm weary of anything put forward by TRAs like yourself. You probably think puberty blockers are harmless and NO minor is getting surgery, don't you?

Puberty blockers are only added if necessary after psychological care and support. Surgery in minors is extremely rare, reserved for the most extreme cases.

[quote] Ironic that gays were also once considered mentally ill.

Not really.

And lobotomies were once considered valid treatment. Transing minors and cutting off healthy organs/giving kids puberty blockers will be seen the same way as lobotomies are now within 20 years. Hopefully sooner.

Puberty blockers have never been shown to be harmful. The right keeps pushing that they apparent sterilize kids but there are numerous examples of people going off hormones to get pregnant.

R269, And just like that you credibility goes out the window....

[quote] And lobotomies were once considered valid treatment. Transing minors and cutting off healthy organs/giving kids puberty blockers will be seen the same way as lobotomies are now within 20 years. Hopefully sooner.

Even doctors don't believe that surgery is healthy for kids, which is why it is reserved for the most intractable cases. Those who are sure they will commit suicide if they don't change their bodies. And yes, surgery is far superior to suicide.

[quote] And just like that you credibility goes out the window....

Because spouting the right wing "All kids are getting hormones and surgery!!" just reeks of credibility...

[quote] Those who are sure they will commit suicide if they don't change their bodies. And yes, surgery is far superior to suicide.

Someone threatening suicide needs psychological counseling and possibly psychiatric drugs. Not having organs removed.

[quote] Puberty blockers have never been shown to be harmful.

Yes they have, which is why several EU countries are now banning them.

As usual, you TRANNIES LIE!

[quote]numerous examples of people going off hormones to get pregnant.

Hmmm, R271... In what world does getting pregnant and having a baby align with a the psyche of a woman who "feels like" a man? Pregnant people my ass.

This is so incredibly fucked up I'm practically speechless. No man can give birth to a baby. Having a baby in and of itself proves that the "person" who does it is a female human being.

That is all.

[quote]Puberty blockers have never been shown to be harmful. The right keeps pushing that they apparent sterilize kids but there are numerous examples of people going off hormones to get pregnant.

r271 Puberty blockers are not the same medications that transmen (females) go off of to allow themselves to get pregnant. Puberty blockers are GnRH (gonadotropin-releasing hormone) agonists. They stop the body from producing sex hormones. There have been no studies to confirm that puberty blockers don't negatively impact the reproductive system later down the line.

Transmen still produce female sex hormones such as estrogen and progesterone. They just take exogenous testosterone to "boost" the already existing endogenous testosterone they have to match the average male as closely as possible. In fact, many of them take progesterone-based birth control to prevent pregnancy while taking testosterone since testosterone alone does not prevent pregnancy nor is it considered a reliable form of birth control.

The only reliable form of birth control that transmen can take "along with" testosterone is progesterone based because they aren't contraindicated with the exogenous androgen therapy. A transman who is only on testosterone can still get pregnant because transmen are just females with artificially boosted circulating testosterone.

R274, hundreds if not thousands of top surgeries are done on minors each year.

50 minors have had genital reconfiguration surgery. That is just what the trans lobby will publicly admit to after many years of claiming the number was zero.

"Rare" my ass!!

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Outsized discussion

[QUOTE]Those who are sure they will commit suicide if they don't change their bodies.

Wow it took a long time for that one to show up.

No one wants anyone to commit suicide.

But the threat of suicide is often used as emotional blackmail.