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Did the sexual terms "top" and "bottom" originate in the gay male community or elsewhere?

Like, were they maybe BDSM terms or general sexual position terms or something like that first, or did it start as a gay thing? I was just curious, because I was listening to a podcast today where the lesbian women and trans men on it kept referring to themselves as tops or bottoms (like, incessantly, to be honest), and I've heard this elsewhere too, and it seemed unusual, because I always associate it with the act of anal penetration between men, but I wondered if I had it wrong all this time.

Also, these hosts complain about "cis gay males" a lot, and I thought it might be kinda amusing if it turns out they did that but also co-opted our terms, hehe.

by Anonymousreply 87November 24, 2022 6:37 PM

I've always assumed that they were mainstream gay abbreviations of "the one who goes on top" and "the one who goes on [the] bottom". If so, then they are indeed being appropriated (not that that would bother me much, though it would be hypocritical of the podcasters).

I would imagine that the women on this podcast (which sounds terrible) have that annoying female habit of fetishising gay males and our sex lives.

by Anonymousreply 1August 14, 2022 1:48 PM

I still remember when the primary means of describing those positions were Greek Active and Greek Passive. I’m 57 if that helps with context. I would almost say that top and bottom didn’t gain momentum until the 1990s. And for more context, I spent the late 80s and 90s in NYC. I would think gay personal ads would be the place to look at the evolution of the terminology.

by Anonymousreply 2August 14, 2022 2:26 PM

Why listen to homophobic podcasts? We (gay men) have truly become the punching bag of the alphabet soup. Let me guess: they also repeat the lie that gay men had nothing to do with the GAY rights movement and it was all thanks to brave and stunning disabled meth head transqueers with 10 mental illnesses each?

by Anonymousreply 3August 14, 2022 9:51 PM

[quote]I still remember when the primary means of describing those positions were Greek Active and Greek Passive.

Ahh, that's really interesting, I've never heard of those terms before (with "Greek" in front of them, I mean).

by Anonymousreply 4August 15, 2022 6:49 AM

There was also French Active and French Passive. I wonder if those terms were used when writing up police reports on sexual deviance cases?

by Anonymousreply 5August 15, 2022 6:50 AM

[quote]Why listen to homophobic podcasts?

Oh, don't worry, I gave it up after awhile. It got to be a bit much listening to them constantly complaining about how awful men were.

For context, the podcast is called To L and Back and it's a podcast where they review episode by episode the show The L Word. The L Word is a show I have enjoyed greatly in the past, while it is kinda ridiculous in so many ways, so I thought it was perfect for humorous discussion. And look, the hosts can be funny, and initially I was ok with it. But their griping gets really silly as they go along.

I think the hosts were a nonbinary bisexual and a trans man, but they have guests nearly every week and there are a lot of lesbians and trans men there too. What they did well was inviting guests on who could talk to the issues on the episode and show how the writers had done a good or a bad job of it.

But the hosts and guests at the same time are like cartoonish versions of what some right-winger would call the "overly woke" if that makes sense. I can't even remember all the stuff they were saying, but I just gave up after awhile. Talking about how awful gay men are just go to be too ridiculous, and they seemed to want to gripe about every line in the show being "problematic" with no understanding of nuance or context or intent.

[quote]Let me guess: they also repeat the lie that gay men had nothing to do with the GAY rights movement

While I never heard this exactly, they did skate pretty close to it in some episodes and may have said it elsewhere.

by Anonymousreply 6August 15, 2022 6:54 AM

[quote]not that that would bother me much, though it would be hypocritical of the podcasters

That's what I found so amusing about it really. They are very hypocritical - they've kinda created a hierarchy of who is ok to do what, and they end up twisting themselves up, haha. But yes, it isn't the end of the world or anything, but after listening to them I just wished I had people I knew who listened to it to so I could turn to them and say: "Can you believe this shit?" Haha.

[quote]I would imagine that the women on this podcast (which sounds terrible) have that annoying female habit of fetishising gay males and our sex lives.

You know, they sorta have, but in this weird way where they don't really like gay men either and aren't afraid to say it. All the while fetishising us too. It was weird.

I just was so confused by the talk of tops and bottoms. One guest kept bringing up that she was a bottom over and over again: "I'm a bottom, I'm the ultimate bottom, go to my website www.ultimatebottom.com, etc." You get the idea. I've never heard gay men talk like this. I don't know if she was hoping to shock or something, but it was weird, especially as I think she just meant "submissive".

[quote]There was also French Active and French Passive.

Ahh wow, very interesting! Reminds me of that bit in Fawlty Towers where Basil learns that the chef, Kurt is in love with Manuel and is now drunk and can't cook because Manuel refused his advances.

BASIL: I should never have hired a Frenchman.

POLLY: He's Greek, Mr Fawlty.

BASIL: Greek? Well, that's worse, I mean, they invented it!

I guess Anglo-Saxon's really tried to distance themselves from it.

by Anonymousreply 7August 15, 2022 6:59 AM

r3 No, like everything else they stole it from real women.

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by Anonymousreply 8August 15, 2022 7:01 AM

Oh! One thing I remember them saying, which doesn't have to do with the topic at hand but will give you an idea of what they were like, is that they were complaining how "problematic" it is when a white person dates someone from another culture and asks that person to teach them a few phrases in their language.

What a thing to get upset about! It was all very "it's not their job to teach their language to you!"

by Anonymousreply 9August 15, 2022 7:01 AM
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by Anonymousreply 10August 15, 2022 7:07 AM
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by Anonymousreply 11August 15, 2022 7:07 AM

r9 that's been the standard in social justices circles for the past decade and campus culture since the late 90s but didn't really break into activist circles until the occupy movement and didn't crack the mainstream until tumblr.

by Anonymousreply 12August 15, 2022 7:13 AM

r9 ^^ "it's not my job to teach you" kind of rhetoric. . .

of course, elements of existed before then, too... every generation has their version.

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by Anonymousreply 13August 15, 2022 7:15 AM

It's so mad to me, R12/R13 - I'm a bit of a language geek and in real life I've had nothing but happiness from people who speak other languages when I try to speak with them or ask them for phrases. If anything, it makes a friendship develop quicker. Thank god most people aren't as highly strung as some of these people are!

by Anonymousreply 14August 15, 2022 8:03 AM

Where are those quotes from, R10/R11? They describe gay life as being much less joyful than I've experienced. And how is the separation of sex from emotional involvement a "culture tainted by a profound hatred of women"? With all due respect, women don't even enter my mind when I'm fucking. Plus gay men absolutely do get emotionally involved. We can just also have one night stands and both be merrily on our way afterwards with no hard feelings. Best of both worlds in my mind!

by Anonymousreply 15August 15, 2022 8:07 AM

[quote]And how is the separation of sex from emotional involvement a "culture tainted by a profound hatred of women"?

Good question, OP. I'm guessing that the excerpts are from Sheila Jeffreys, a British "lesbian by choice" who really hates gay men and who seems to have some lesbian fans on DL.

by Anonymousreply 16August 15, 2022 8:15 AM

I've heard Sheila Jeffreys referenced on this site a couple of times, but don't really know anything about her. She sounds... odd.

by Anonymousreply 17August 15, 2022 8:19 AM

I don't mind the phrase 'top' and 'bottom'. It's hard to avoid them now. But personally I also don't have a problem with being called a passive homosexual or or just a passive. I know many self-identified bottoms do take issue with it, especially bossy bottoms or power bottoms. But I tend just to get pounded, which means I am pretty passive, although not so much in terms of moaning etc.

I'm interested that top and bottom didn't really gain currency till the 1990s.

by Anonymousreply 18August 15, 2022 9:36 AM

I just remembered one of the things they did on the podcast that confused me. They use the word "fag" a lot, and laugh about it a lot. The reason it seemed particularly odd to me was that they are constantly scolding the show for using the "r-slur" or the "t-slur" which is all fine, but then they liberally repeat the uses of fag and talk about how when one straight character called the gay guy a "fag" it was their favourite line in the episode.

That just seems not very consistent to me.

by Anonymousreply 19August 15, 2022 12:38 PM

These are ugly terms, greek active and passive.

by Anonymousreply 20August 15, 2022 12:44 PM

Uh, I meant greek active and passive are better, bottom and top are ugly terms.

Sorry, too much liquor for the holiday lunch.

by Anonymousreply 21August 15, 2022 1:01 PM

I read that it started with gay porn. They would ask the newcomers which role they prefer to perform.

by Anonymousreply 22August 16, 2022 2:36 AM

Those terms have been used for at least a few decades in the BDSM community, where, obviously, the top is dom and the bottom is the sub.

by Anonymousreply 23August 16, 2022 3:08 AM

Oh god, I just remembered another thing I heard on the podcast that just confused me. See if you can explain it.

They were describing a party scene occurring at one point and in describing the apartment the party took place in, they actually said:

"There are heaps of Tom of Finland prints around the room, on the walls... so this is [italic]definitely[/italic] a queer party. It's not a gay party, it's not a lesbian party, it's a [italic]queer[/italic] party."

HUH?!

by Anonymousreply 24August 16, 2022 12:41 PM

I always thought 'tops and bottoms' comes from BDSM and it was then appropriated by gay culture.

Re: the "it's not their job to teach you" thing - that really bugs me too. OK, yes I agree it's NOT their job, but if someone is asking and open and wanting to be educated, surely it's better to be educated by a direct source with first hand experience rather than tell them to just "go and do your own research" online, which is far more likely to be hit and miss, inaccurate, outdated etc depending on what they happen to stumble upon. I don't get this demonisation of anyone who has demonstrated they are willing to learn and grow.

by Anonymousreply 25August 16, 2022 12:57 PM

Great point, R25! As you say, what if I go and educate myself and the sources I find tell me something different than what you want me to know?

I suspect it's really just because they can't justify their own arguments in any way, so they put the onus on others.

by Anonymousreply 26August 16, 2022 1:11 PM

This was a typical Village Voice personal ad in1980=- GWM 23, 5'9", 150lb, Italian, GL/SA (good looking straight acting), GP/FA/FP, seeks similar masculine guy 23-28 for good times. Send pic to VV box 2343.

I answered one like this and the guy was a queeny hairdresser from Queens, with a collection of 8x10 pics of a all the grand dames from Gloria Swanson to Cher and French provincial furniture.

by Anonymousreply 27August 16, 2022 1:36 PM

I'm sure Cole Porter understood the terms "top" and "bottom" in the mid-1930s.

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by Anonymousreply 28August 16, 2022 1:45 PM

That god awful “Str8” was another term invented by gay men, unfortunately.

by Anonymousreply 29August 16, 2022 1:47 PM

This isn't rocket science, OP.

Occam's razor, toots.

by Anonymousreply 30August 16, 2022 1:49 PM

R27 Where did you find this, as I’m the one who mentioned looking at old personal ads above, or did you retain this from your life?

by Anonymousreply 31August 16, 2022 2:40 PM

I'm Vers like 75% top, 25% bottom and so I've never really gotten the terms, I don't go in to sex thinking about my position I let the mood and universe take me where I need to.

And, passive and active never made sense to me. If you are good at sex, you won't ever be passive. To me both people are equally active. I did fuck a completely passive guy before and it was like fucking a pillow. I could've stayed home and jerked off, my hand was a much better partner.

by Anonymousreply 32August 16, 2022 3:13 PM

R32 The Active and Passive refer to penetration, are you the one actively penetrating or passively being penetrated. It’s not about how much activity one is having during sex.

by Anonymousreply 33August 16, 2022 3:21 PM

R33 And, that is why it doesn't make sense. No one thinks of that when they hear the terms, they think of the common definition. And even then, I still don't understand what those words have to do with penetration. I know that is how they are used, I just can't get my head around why. To me being penetrated is not a passive act.

by Anonymousreply 34August 16, 2022 3:28 PM

r31, I made it up from memory.

by Anonymousreply 35August 16, 2022 3:28 PM

Top and bottom originated in BDSM culture. Many gay men were involved in that, so I wouldn't say it was appropriated. I imagine someone out there has written a lengthy treatise on the influence of leather culture on the wider BDSM culture. It's my understanding that top and bottom refer to roles in a scene, and aren't strictly correlated to dom/sub or to anal sex.

by Anonymousreply 36August 16, 2022 3:28 PM

I've used the terms "top" and "bottom" since I was a teenager and that was so long ago I had to worry about being stomped by dinosaurs (okay, really about 40 years. Yes, I'm old).

[quote]Re: the "it's not their job to teach you" thing - that really bugs me too.

Seconded. If I were on a date (and again, it's been decades since I last "dated"), and I asked my native-language-speaking date (and yes, I've been there; he was smart enough to impart dirty phrases) to teach me a few phrases and this is that they said to me, I'd reply "thanks for a wonderful time, gotta go!" and get up and walk out. I can't imagine someone being so sensitive that they would take offense at being asked such an ice-breaking and interest-showing question.

by Anonymousreply 37August 16, 2022 3:55 PM

[quote] Re: the "it's not their job to teach you" thing - that really bugs me too.

I've never understood that one, either. If it is something you are obviously passionate about, why wouldn't it be your job to enlighten others? To me it signifies two things, one they are selfish and lazy, and secondly they don't really know what they are talking about. They just repeat the "right things" over and over but they don't understand why it is "right."

by Anonymousreply 38August 16, 2022 4:03 PM

In most Romance languages 'bottom' is translated as pasivo / passivo / passif, and 'top' is translated as activo / attivo / actif etc. They're still current words.

by Anonymousreply 39August 17, 2022 8:44 AM

Same in Slavic languages R39. Though some young gays that follow the fashion use English terms top and bottom

by Anonymousreply 40August 17, 2022 8:47 AM

R40 that's interesting. There are also tons of words on Romance languages to describe fem bottoms (marica, tapette, loca, jota etc.) but I can't really find any such terms in Slavic languages, except perhaps for the Polish 'ciota'. Do you know of any others?

by Anonymousreply 41August 17, 2022 8:58 AM

“Marica! Marica! Marica!”

by Anonymousreply 42August 17, 2022 9:02 AM

R42 addressed to whom?

by Anonymousreply 43August 17, 2022 9:07 AM

In Croatian there is term tetka, tetkica (aunt, auntieie), but it is not used for bottoms exclusively, but all fem gay man.

There are a bit old fashioned terms coming from Bosnian tobdžija (meaning the cannon man)-top and furundžija (meaning the baker)-bottom. Not sure why baker, probably because he has the stove.

There is karoljub (cocklover), but it is not for bottoms only.

It is funny that there are more widespread pejorative terms for tops: nabiguzica (means the one that smash asses), guzojebač (assfucker), guzoljub (ass lover) guzičar (ass man) tur operator (butt operator).

Some gay bottoms call themselves kuja (the bitch), but it is internal jargon, not used by the heteros.

by Anonymousreply 44August 17, 2022 9:22 AM

I meant auntie

by Anonymousreply 45August 17, 2022 9:23 AM

R44 that's fascinating. I didn't know that about Croatian terms. Do you know much about Romanian? It's not the same as other Romance languages. I don't really know the connotations of 'poponar', for example.

by Anonymousreply 46August 17, 2022 9:30 AM

No, I don't know anything about Romanian, it is a Romance language, but they have few Slavic or Turkish words.

by Anonymousreply 47August 17, 2022 9:33 AM

In Turkish there is 'ibne', which seems equivalent to the UK poof or US faggot. It's often used as a taunt in schools to bully fem boys.

by Anonymousreply 48August 17, 2022 9:35 AM

In Croatia (and Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro) the mainly used term, meaning faggot is "peder". Obviously has roots in word pederast, but it doesn't mean pederast, it is applied on every gay men, just like faggot.

by Anonymousreply 49August 17, 2022 9:39 AM

R49 yes. In French they have 'pedal' as well, which also just maans faggot. What's interesting is the apparent lack of Slavic words for males assumed to be bottom because they are effeminate. It seems that they have more words for tops, as you say. I wonder why that is, when Mediterranean languages are almost wholly concerned with differentiating fem bottoms from the rest of men.

by Anonymousreply 50August 17, 2022 9:44 AM

What of Moldavia? Are there tops and bottoms there as well, I mean besides Steven and Luke?

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by Anonymousreply 51August 17, 2022 9:52 AM

R27, you bring back memories! “SA” – straight-acting – was a BIG deal in those personals. So many men labeled themselves “straight-acting” that you wondered who all those flaming queens were who you saw all the time. Didn’t they run personal ads? (Yes, they did, as you found out!)

Typical, too, was the strict definition of roles – active and passive, GA vs. GP. “Vers” – meaning the same thing it means today – would turn up occasionally, but most ads specified what we would call top or bottom. And there were ALWAYS more bottoms than tops. IRL, men were a little more versatile than that, especially in anonymous situations, when you did whatever you felt like, but in the ads, almost everybody was one or the other and GA’s were outnumbered by GP’s.

by Anonymousreply 52August 17, 2022 10:08 AM

Talking about those old ads just reminded me of the really ugly word "humpy", which had somehow arisen from the word "hunky".

"Humpy, hairy and well-endowed" - if you liked hairy, masculine guys, you read a LOT of ads with that description, always in that order. And, since there were no pictures, who could argue?

Also - "no fats, fems or S&Ms", which I remember because it rhymes.

by Anonymousreply 53August 17, 2022 10:14 AM

R34 - yes, but when you’re being penetrated, you’re not necessarily on the bottom, either, so why do we say "bottom" for the person getting fucked?

I understand what you're saying, and technically you're correct, but language isn't always logical. In sexual terms, "active" refers to the penetrator and "passive" to the one being penetrated. As other pointed out, it's the same in other languages. That's just how we talk ... or talked, anyway.

FWIW, I think I first heard "top" sometime in '80s, and probably the late '80s.

by Anonymousreply 54August 17, 2022 10:19 AM

[quote]Re: the "it's not their job to teach you" thing - that really bugs me too.

I guess there's no point in asking if the reverse applies. That is, if a non-English-speaker asks you how to say something in English, should you tell them it's not your job to teach them? Somehow I doubt it.

by Anonymousreply 55August 17, 2022 10:27 AM

Holy god! Ok, so I did a bit of research into these hosts, and I seriously have tears running down my face from laughing so much. I doubt I will even think about taking them seriously in the future.

I realised that the podcast is a product of a site called Autostraddle and the hosts work for (or perhaps own) this company. So, I decided to pop the name and "Datalounge" into the search engine to see what came up. And fuck me if I didn't come across the most hilarious article they wrote, a total mea culpa about the fact they had reviewed the movie Sausage Party!

I imagine you all know this story already as it's been out there awhile, but I hadn't heard it before and so have put the link here for anyone to read if they wish. And I recommend it for a real laugh! I said above the hosts were like a parody of what a right-winger would think "woke" and "SJW" mean. The article comes across as satire, but this is exactly how they talk on the podcast!

This has just tickled me so much! Some favourite parts include them sharing their overwrought Slack conversation about whether they should publish the review or not. One of the people Riese chimes in only to say: "Is the reviewer white?" which made me choke, because she is one of the podcast hosts and that is all she says on the podcast: negative things about white people (of which she is one!). So that made me giggle. And then this had me lose it:

[quote]After we published the review, we heard from Latinx readers who believe the portrayal of Salma Hayek’s taco was racist and that it reinforced harmful stereotypes. We heard from readers who were upset that we labeled the taco a lesbian when it seems more likely that she was bisexual. We heard from readers who questioned the consent of the sexual encounter between the taco and the hot dog bun. We heard from readers who found the taco to be a damaging portrayal of a predatory queer woman.

Let me highlight that again:

[quote][bold]We heard from readers who questioned the consent of the sexual encounter between the taco and the hot dog bun.[/bold]

I'm fucking screaming. What a bunch of loons! It explains so much about their weird statements on the podcast though!

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by Anonymousreply 56August 17, 2022 12:59 PM

Secondly, I found the blog by the woman who kept going on (and on and on and on) about being a bottom, and here is her article: "I'm a Much Better Bottom Than You. Here's Why."

Read it if you dare, but be warned, it is so fucking obnoxious. She also doesn't know the difference between "your" and "you're".

She does kinda explain what I was asking at the top of the thread, I guess. At least from her perspective:

[quote]When I talk about topping and bottoming, I don’t just mean in the context of penetration typically associated with gay males. I mean it in the context of queer sex, broader BDSM, and power play. While they are technically different but connected subjects, the terms “top,” “bottom,” and “switch” apply to all three worlds and the advice I’m giving you applies to all three. (To be clear, I’m a better bottom than you in each of those categories.)

Incidentally, I have LOVED reading all the conversation above about different languages. Love that stuff, so thanks guys!

by Anonymousreply 57August 17, 2022 1:03 PM

I mean, aren't women bottoms in the sense of sexual position by default, wtf?

by Anonymousreply 58August 17, 2022 1:06 PM

R58 But then what happens when you have two? They can’t both be on the bottom?

by Anonymousreply 59August 17, 2022 1:48 PM

So when those women strap on a dildo and fuck a man with it, does that make her a top?

by Anonymousreply 60August 17, 2022 1:50 PM

Nah, a top in stricto sensu must have his own dick. I mean I can't claim to be a top and bring over my skinny neighbor, lift him in ma arms and fuck you with his dick.

by Anonymousreply 61August 17, 2022 2:17 PM

I'm such a fool, I forgot to add the link to the article at R57! My only excuse is that it was late at night and I was exhausted, ha!

The woman's name is Chingy Nea.

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by Anonymousreply 62August 18, 2022 12:17 PM

Another question I have is, do gay men really worry that much about tops and bottoms? I know we talk and joke about it among friends, but I've never had anyone even ask me "top or bottom?" in bed, at least not that I can remember. Sex among guys isn't always anal sex, most of the time it's handjobs, blowjobs and frotting with heavy kissing, but it seems to be thought of that all was do is anal sex. And whenever me and the guy/s I'm with wants to do it, it's not a question of "top or bottom?" but just of what you feel like doing at the time. Someone will ask: "can I fuck you?" or say: "will you fuck me?" and it's on. Most guys I know will switch depending on how they feel at the time and who the other guy is.

Now a lot of these "queer" people have sort of taken gay lingo and made it much more of a thing than it was, it seems. Am I making sense?

by Anonymousreply 63August 19, 2022 10:28 PM

[quote]but it seems to be thought of that all was do is anal sex.

Sorry, "it seems to be thought of that all WE do..."

by Anonymousreply 64August 19, 2022 10:29 PM

You're making perfect sense, R63. The cretins fetishize and ape male homosexuality without actually understanding it.

by Anonymousreply 65August 19, 2022 11:06 PM

[quote]The cretins fetishize and ape male homosexuality without actually understanding it.

And then on top of that feel like they can criticise us and talk about the issues gay men have amongst each other as though they know what they're talking about.

It's a bit like someone criticising your family. You can do it, but it irritates you when others do it.

by Anonymousreply 66August 19, 2022 11:11 PM

r63, I agree that's the case when you meet guys in real life -- at bars, nightclubs, the post office, whathaveyou -- but I think another influence has been the dating apps -- GRINDR, SCRUFF, etc. -- where you get to specify your preference.

I've been out for over 30 years; hooking up with other guys you meet in the wild, as it were -- bars, nightclubs, the post office, whathaveyou -- it's more free-wheeling and we just did what we felt like, and, yeah, a lot of the time that didn't include anal. The rare times I did meet somebody who insisted on a specific role during anal sex, they actually ended up being versatile -- even the couple of guys I met who insisted they were exclusively tops, they ended up being vers with me.

by Anonymousreply 67August 20, 2022 1:20 PM

I bet it was a straight man who came up with the word

HOMOSEXUAL

by Anonymousreply 68August 20, 2022 1:29 PM

r68, actually, it was a gay men who came up with the terms "homosexual" and "heterosexual":

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by Anonymousreply 69August 20, 2022 1:34 PM

I wonder if Autostraddle put time into pondering the question of whether the Salma Hayek lesbian taco was a top or bottom taco?

by Anonymousreply 70August 20, 2022 3:23 PM

[quote]yeah, a lot of the time that didn't include anal.

Yep. It does feel like anal has become de rigueur in a way it wasn't decades ago. Also, before the apps, casual sex meant tearooms, parks and the like. Not only would anal sex be more difficult, uncomfortable and dangerous in such places, but a fair amount of punters were there on the spur of the moment and not *ahem* prepared for anal. (I think there was a lot less emphasis on "preparing" back then anyway, but I can't be sure because I've never liked anal sex.)

by Anonymousreply 71August 21, 2022 12:42 AM

[quote]It does feel like anal has become de rigueur in a way it wasn't decades ago.

From what I'm hearing, it sounds like a lot of women are being expected to do it for their boyfriends now, whereas not that long ago it was considered a very rare thing that only certain women would do.

by Anonymousreply 72August 21, 2022 12:48 AM

"Tommy, honey, please tell me you're the top. That means the man, right? Like the real man."

by Anonymousreply 73August 21, 2022 5:46 AM

I know in the eighties when I was a teen, no one I knew ever used top or bottom as descriptions. It was more like "Can I fuck you ?" or "Can I fuck your ass?", " wanna fuck?" etc. Usually we would take turns. It wasn't as rigid as some people want it to be now.

by Anonymousreply 74August 21, 2022 8:32 AM

Top/Bottom The terms top and bottom emerged as descriptors of a sexual binary in the gay leather culture of the 1950s and the bondage and sadomasochism (BDSM) culture of the 1960s. Originally, the top-bottom binary signified both sexual positions and power relationships in which a top was a sexual aggressor and penetrator who often acted as the more forceful and dominant partner; the bottom represented the more submissive, typically penetrated, and often "punished" partner

by Anonymousreply 75August 21, 2022 8:54 AM

[quote]It wasn't as rigid as some people want it to be now.

Very interesting to read, and also I have to say, sounds like reality now even. People talk about "top" and "bottom" more than it actually being a thing when you fuck. Was it on Q-force where the main character says: "Oh, and I'm not a top or a bottom, I'm versatile - because I'm an adult." or something?

by Anonymousreply 76August 21, 2022 9:30 PM

R63 this is all really interesting. What you're describing is very much the 'gay ideal': two masculine presenting men with no real pre-defined sexual role. Versatility is key here.

But in history and even today, this is a very unusual situation. Even if in private men were more flexible, the public understanding was that there were men and not-men: penetrators and those who are penetrated. Oral sex especially is a very American thing and has often been noted as such by anthropologists or ethnographers. Fairy and fruit - Americanisms - both originally denoted a cocksucker rather than an anally passive male. In English history, ingles, pathics, and catamites, were anally passive males, some of whom were also professional prostitutes. In English, pansies and poofs had similar connotations in more recent history.

I think labels like top and bottom appeal to guys who cannot or don't want to fit into the anything-goes gay ideal, maybe for whom sex is always anal sex. You can dismiss this as being heteronormative or whatever, but to do so is also to fall into the trap of traditional 'gay' thinking, which is to separate sexual orientation from any kind of gender roles. It seems demonstrably the case that for some gay men, gender is very much wrapped up in their sexuality, and anal sex in polarised roles might well express this dynamic better than other kinds of sex.

by Anonymousreply 77August 22, 2022 8:35 AM

^^^ Nice TED talk.

by Anonymousreply 78August 22, 2022 8:45 AM

Back when I was "in the [BDSM] Scene," the preferred terminology was "dom" (or domme, in the case of a female) and "sub."

But that was in the early-mid aughts. Things may have changed some since then.

by Anonymousreply 79August 22, 2022 9:05 AM

Sounds like you have some stories from that interesting past, R79! Yeah, those terms seem to make more sense to me in a BDSM sense (speaking as someone who knows nothing about it).

by Anonymousreply 80August 23, 2022 7:34 AM

I think those terms are still current, R79. At least, the common derivations of them, like daddy dom and findom are still current.

Then again, a straight daddy dom's sub is a "baby girl", not just a sub.

I don't know what the equivalent term is among gay male BDSM's. In fact, I'm not sure how many true daddy doms there are among gay men. Most of the guys I see posting at Reddit and on OF who claim to be gay daddy doms seem so ridiculously OTT and fake that I'll bet they turn bottoms up the minute the door's closed. Even the ones who seem naturally and comfortably masculine immediately put on that "fuck YEAH, SMELL those stinky pits, son" shit for their videos. It's pretty disappointing that there are no just normally dominant, trad virile gay men out there with OF accounts.

by Anonymousreply 81August 25, 2022 12:36 AM

[quote] I've never heard gay men talk like this. I don't know if she was hoping to shock or something, but it was weird, especially as I think she just meant "submissive".

Ah, so when a woman takes a passive role she has to "submit" i.e. be a lesser weaker person, but when a man takes a passive role it's just "bottoming". Got it.

You all don't even notice the hierarchy and the privilege, do you? That's how it works, see. You're genuinely completely blind to the fact that, gay and persecuted though you may be for that, you're still men in a patriarchy and therefore benefit in a society built for you and your needs over women. And that the reason you are persecuted for being gay is because of the wrongful conflation with homosexuality--in particular passive/'bottom' sexual activity--with women and natural femininity. Misogyny is your problem and your bane as much as anyone's, but you think you can wash your hands of it or wriggle out of it, and indeed often do because your Y chromosome gives you half a pass into 'normal' patriarchal society with all the strong men who run the world. Beyoncé was wrong, man.

by Anonymousreply 82August 25, 2022 12:52 AM

[quote] You're genuinely completely blind to the fact that, gay and persecuted though you may be for that, you're still men in a patriarchy.

If this place is so disagreeable, I hear that LChat is lovely this time of year.

by Anonymousreply 83August 25, 2022 4:00 PM

[quote] Ah, so when a woman takes a passive role she has to "submit" i.e. be a lesser weaker person, but when a man takes a passive role it's just "bottoming". Got it.

Do you realise you just went on a very angry rant above over something that I never said or meant? I would hate to be inside your head.

by Anonymousreply 84August 26, 2022 7:11 AM

Re: this issue, I came across another podcast from that website all about bottoming, and not a gay man in sight. I think what I'm gleaning from this is that they are talking about it from a BDSM perspective. This podcast is actually kinda insufferable, but I think that's what they were getting at. Another interview with this "Chingy Nea" person, who claims they are the Supreme Bottom or something.

It was quite... something... to listen to. These hosts and guests really are all about categorising themselves down to the nth degree. Just a whole lot of different subcultures that I was never aware of before. The script is below anyway.

Incidentally, when I was looking around, I noticed the hosts and guests on other episodes of this podcast tend to call themselves "faggots" or "faggoty" an awful lot, and none of them are gay men. Which is very weird/offensive, and I don't really get why they do that. But perhaps that's a question for a different thread sometime.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 85November 24, 2022 5:37 PM

I firmly believe that f*gg-t is only used by bisexuals/queers and they [bold]don’t[/bold] mean it as a term of endearment.

It’s a sardonic way of marking people as less than. Even when they label themselves.

by Anonymousreply 86November 24, 2022 6:25 PM

Interesting, R86! I find it all very confusing as to why they would do it. (Incidentally, I did end up making a thread on the topic).

In some of the uses of it, it does seem to be very jokey or something.

by Anonymousreply 87November 24, 2022 6:37 PM
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