Michael Jackson and his ridiculous music

“In The Closet” originally began with Madonna. She said he came up with the title and that she wanted to play off the innuendo and he rejected everything that had to do with being gay until she gave up.

Some people still think the faggot was str8 & fucked his ex-wives like a real stud

Seriously, his fans believe it!!

He was cool to kids. I thought he was incredible when I was little, I was between 4 and 6 years old during the “Dangerous” era. I remember being obsessed with the “Remember The Time” and “Will You Be There” for the “Free Willy” Soundtrack.

I was definitely over him by the time TLC’s “Crazy Sexy Cool” came out in 1994.

MJ was macho and one of the best lovers on the planet. You hate him out of envy OP. Let all that go.

I love that song where he's in love with a rat ("Ben").

He's fucking terrible. He always was and always will be.

Bad is SUCH a crappy tire fire of an album and so was everything after. I wish people would let him go.

[...]

The most ridiculous song/video was "You Rock My World" in 2001. By this time, Jackson was a fortysomething freak show with a deformed nose, and everybody knew he loved little boys. But he still insisted on a 1980s-style over-the-top video, pretending to be a real ladies man, chasing after a woman to win her affection. It would have been funny if it wasn't so pathetically sad. It was the second-worst tragedy of 2001.

Because he was so massively popular that people were willing to overlook the weirdness. Once the child molestation accusations surfaced in August 1993 that changed things. The remaining singles from the Dangerous album were flops. I very distinctly remember that in the spring of 1993 when I was in 6th grade, Michael Jackson was still the coolest thing ever. By the time I started 7th grade in the fall of 1993, no one wanted to admit they liked Michael Jackson. And R8 you’re right. That 2001 video was cringy as hell.

Fuck you all. Fucking racists to this beautiful black man with rare skin disease who outsmarted the Beetles. May you rot in hell.

R10 no one in this whole thread mentioned race only you.

I always figured he was famous for being famous. Wasn't my cup of tea but plenty of women got all wet over him.

Maybe the Black Community should pick better people to put on pedestals?

Lol.

In the Closet was and still is Stéphanie de Monaco biggest international hit. Unfortunately (for her) pretty much no one realizes it. Just like Madonna's What it Feels Like For a Girl is Charlotte Gainsbourg's biggest international hit but no one knows except a few insiders. Sad.

Fame and excessive wealth do terrible things to a person. They are surrounded by hangers on and yes men, and nobody tells them when they are being arseholes. Megalomania and drugs distance them from taking responsibility for their actions, and nobody confronts them, even when they dangle babies over balconies.

The marriage to Lisa Marie Presley was one of the most awkward things I’ve ever seen in my life.

R8 I hadn’t seen that video in a long time, it’s just the same old “Smooth Criminal” concept. The interesting thing is how much his face is hidden in the video.

Very talented man who many could tell was a pedophile. It was obvious for many years that he was not an adult heterosexual, eventually most could tell he met the diagnostic criteria for a pedophile. He left lotsa breadcrumbs…

What is up with the nose in that video?

R20 Do you mean where is the nose in that video?

I like the “Off the Wall” album, his 1975 single “One Day in Your Life”, some Jackson 5 stuff and that’s it.

His fake relationships were so badly acted too. The bc plays blind and dumb over him being a pedo. It's really gross. I wouldn't worship a pedo of any color.

Off The Wall is still my favorite tied with Billie Jean.By the late 80s I just was over Michael. Same with Janet, not long after If.

R10 We are not racists at Datalounge (at least most of us aren't). We find appalling and criticize people of all races and combinations there of. And in Jackson's case there were the court cases in which he was accused of being a pedophile and he wasn't exactly acquitted.

OP I really don't associate Michael Jackson's tumultuous personal issues with his musical catalog. Michael's music career was largely the work of other very talented people, at this point Teddy Riley gave Michael Jackson a new sound for the 90s. Michael was the best showman and he elevated the music with dancing and elaborate videos (also largely the work of others, Herb Ritts here) which inspired generations of artists to do the same. I dont think anyone believed that he was a "hetero stud" by the early 90s. By this point his artistry had already transformed music for over 20 years, so no one was really phased by how ridiculous he looked.

The BAD album was the soundtrack to my childhood. I was young, male, cute and blond back then so I often wish my mother would've somehow paraded me in front of Michael. I'd take a few grabs to the crotch in exchange for a life of financial independence. Certainly beats having to work my entire life away to scrape together a meager existence! I'm a whore to my job anyway.

I couldn't stand him and thought his heterosexual pantomimes in those videos were ridiculous.

The 90s were the last days of the genuine megastar, it was a less questioning or cynical time, and he had a large following of naive and stupid fans,, mostly women, that at its worst resembled a cult.

I don’t think most women were sexually attracted to him. He elicited paternal instincts, cause people (women in particular) could sense how immature and messed up he was. Even Brando acted fatherly towards him, even though Brando was an awful dad to his biological children.

In the early stages of the Thriller era, before his image got too weird, he was considered sexy and cool to normal adults. He looked good and was appealing in videos like Billie Jean. That started to turn when the awards season began and most people heard his effeminate speaking voice for the first time. Plus the weird outfits. I remember that distinctly.

Most of you were kids when Dangerous was out?? Just how young are you people?

r31 if you were 10 years old when Dangerous came out you'd now be around 40. I guess it makes it worse if you are old enough to remember little Michael Jackson with an afro in the covered wagon days! 👴🏼

I was 7 when Thriller came out. In high school for Dangerous.

Not a Jackson fan, he was a pedophile and a creep, but I do believe the record company probably wanted him dead in the end, as he supposedly claimed. You look at the "Rock My World" video and you see he was completely grotesque and unmarketable by this point. He was massively in debt but had a back catalogue that could still be milked. It was better for everyone if he died.

It's very telling here how many were obsessed with MJ's music as children.

As a pedo predator, Michael Jackson designed his music to be like a Pied Piper to appeal and lure more children for him to victimize

You’re reaching. People of all ages are and were obsessed with his music.

"In the Closet" came out a time when Jackson's career was on a downward swing and rumors were swirling about his "interest" in children.

It was an embarrassing attempt to remake his image as a sexy stud no woman could resist. He got Herb Ritts to direct it, but even Ritz, who turned Janet into a sex symbol with the "Love Will Never Do" video and Chris Isaak into every woman and gay man's dream with "Wicked Game," couldn't get the magic to work on Michael.

Off The Wall and Thriller are still masterpieces. Even though in the 40 years since Thriller, the songs from it have been driven right into the ground. Bad is a mixed bag. I Just Cant Stop Loving You and Smooth Criminal really hold up. If I hear Man In The Mirror and Dirty Diana one more time, I may jump off a bridge.

From then on his music deteriorated rapidly. You Are Not Alone and its video sums it up perfectly. Horrible, cheesy ballad with a video on how we are supposed to lament a persecuted MJ hounded by the press and him and Lisa Marie practically nude in it (his pathetic body is whiter than hers) to convince everyone he was straight. Has to be the most unsexy thing I’ve ever seen. No one wanted to see this garbage.

I remember quite vividly seeing him perform Billie Jean on the Motown 25 special, which I believe was early 83, and being both utterly transfixed, and instantly obsessed. There hasn't been anything like that since. Madonna and Prince both blew up the following year, and each caused their own type of mania, but not on the same scale. Parents were hesitant about Madonna and Prince, but MJ was safe for all, it seemed.

I was still a massive fan when Bad came out, but something was off, and I remember my mother pointing out how different he looked at the Grammy's in 1988 because of his plastic surgery, and suddenly being conscious of the fact he was altering his appearance, which I hadn't even realized it was something you could do.

By Dangerous, I had just started high school, and he was definitely not "cool" anymore, despite having a couple of hits, and I remember seeing a closeup shot of him in the Pepsi commercial (the panther one), and feeling a bit sickened by the state of his nose. Obviously, it was all downhill from there.

I never liked In The Closet, and I don't remember it being very popular amongst anyone I knew. Looking at the video now, it's quite embarrassing seeing him try to be sexy with Naomi. He has no idea what to do with her. There is nothing instinctual, or sexual, about his movement with her, and he's sort of fumbling with her like she's a prop he's never used before. That's exactly what she was, of course, which is a shame, as she was absolutely fucking stunning in this video. He was definitely looking weird, but compared to how badly his looks deteriorated over the next few years, I think he looks kind of cute. He still had his smile then, and the sepia tone of the film minimized his freakshow complexion.

Yes OP Michael Jackson was notorious PUSSY HOUND.

R37 Herb Ritts. I'm "oh, dear"ing myself.

Fuck autocorrect.

R10 oh, dear. It’s the Beatles, not beetles, for fuck’s sake.

R36- and people of ALL ages were and are obsessed with his PEDOPHILIA.

Yawn

Yes, people of all ages with childlike mentalities and musical tastes

Never been an MJ fan but this song floors me

I asked my spirit guides a while back whether or not he had been a paedophile, and the word which came back was a simple "innocent." There exists that possibility.

The fact that he went to such extraordinary lengths to transform himself from a typical AA male in appearance to a distinct Caucasian man clearly demonstrates a profound self-hatred.

The music was good at the time. It does not, however, stand the test of time as Motown is still appreciated by many . Listening to it today, it simply does not stand as a lasting artistic contribution to musical history. It's ridiculous pop garbage

R36 No, R35 has a point.

I was obsessed with “Moonwalker”. The long video for “Smooth Criminal” is very weird to watch as an adult but it was electrifying to watch as a child. His friendship with the orphans was weird, especially the female orphan. A little girl played the damsel in distress archetype in that film, that was weird. And not in the same vein as Alyssa Milano in “Commando” or Natalie Portman in “The Professional” who played daughter figures, this little girl was an orphan obsessed with Michael. It’s actually bizarre to watch as an adult.

He was music parents listened to with their kids cause their kids were obsessed with him. I remember my Nana had the “Bad” cassette tape in her car when I was in pre-school and my Dad would tape his music videos for me to watch. But they didn’t give a shit about him lol.

He doesn’t musically or visually align with anything that was cool or popular in the late 80’s or 90’s.

He sold records the same way Adele sells records. She had one hit album and the rest of her music have been like product purchases. It’s like she’s a brand name and casual listeners buy her music because it’s an event. The actual music isn’t popular.

I don’t remember ANY of my friends talking about him either.

All the praise for the magnificent song @ r46 belongs to the adult music professionals at Motown who wrote, produced and played on the song.

Child MJ was just brought in to sing the right notes in the correct order

Apparently Lisa Marie really believed in the beginning that the marriage was real, but obviously that dissolved extremely quickly when even she couldn't deny her own eyes. The fact she married him at all didn't say a lot about her intellect. I've always felt she was not the sharpest tool as a result of that fiasco.

Predators like MJ can be very charming and persuasive to get what they are determined to get. I'm certain that he went full throttle to get Lisa Marie to marry him as he knew his public image was taking a beating as his child abusing ways were starting to become public knowledge

She must have been wilfully blind, maybe she did it to piss off her mother.

Lisa Marie and her mother were members of a cult at the time and Lisa Marie likely faced enourmous pressure from the cult to try to recruit MJ and his money by becoming Mrs. Jackson

I knew him!

Believe me when I shay he wazh a heteroshexual SHUPERSHTUD!

His music from Thriller on was paranoid, obscure, self-parodying and stupid.

And as far as the argument that he was so popular and rich and I should shut up, all I can say is popular opinion is no standard for what is good.

Notice how far Elvis' image has degraded in the decades since his prime and then his death (the recent movie aside). Mega stardom is a transitory thing. Michael Jackson like Elvis is not the figure he was during his prime. The pedophilia scandal accelerated that process, but the truth is that most of his music post Thriller was not great and only flew on hype. Like Elvis his image became more grotesque and tragic near the end. Jackson will never be cool to the mass market again. He'll always have his obsessed fans but that's standard celebrity cult dynamics and religiosity from vulnerable losers.

He was a disgusting, manipulative, drug-addled child predator pedophile, and it baffled and upset me daily that this freak had fans who happily handed their children over to him to be abused - and everyone just looked the other way and let him get away with it because of his fame.

As a sexual abuse survivor it made it very difficult for me to recover from my childhood rapes knowing that this child rapist was adored by so much of the culture in which I was expected to try and be a functioning adult human. I was so happy when he died, knowing that no more little kids would get fucked by that monster.

R1, he's so dumb. He kept the title even though it's NOT a song about being gay? Stupid.

Two truths: 1) His music went downhill after 'Thriller' 2) His hanging around children 24/7 (who weren't relatives) was strange. I have nephews and nieces that I love dearly that I would babysit for and repeatedly on other occasions take them out and have wholesome activities but it was WORK! Luckily the nephews are grown and employed, they can take ME out.

He was EXTREMELY MASCULINE

R8: the sky was so blue the day the You Rock My World video premiered.

Celebrity worship accelerated as traditional religion declined. It filled that role for some people who needed it. At his peak MJ promoted himself as a charity and child welfare figurehead. His fans really ate that up, especially the women. It's how cults start. A charismatic figure who attaches moral attributes to themselves.

Some of you delude yourselves in thinking that only his rabid fanbase still listen to and love his music. Many people all over the world still listen to him, from his early days all the way to the last album, and not all of those people are the types who would faint at his concerts.

Try as I might, I just can't get into Dangerous as an album. "Heal the World" so badly wants to the be the "We Are the World" of the '90s.

[quote] Notice how far Elvis' image has degraded in the decades since his prime and then his death (the recent movie aside). Mega stardom is a transitory thing.

That's because popular culture is a transitory thing. Dataloungers never believe that, but it is.

99.99% of the stars of today, and the TV shows and films and popular music and so on, will be all-but-unknown one hundred years from now.

Think of how little most people today know of the popular performers and actors and films of one hundred years ago.

R65, it's already happening to Madonna. Never thought I;d actually see her fade out of relevance and turn into Norma Desmond...but here we are.

After "Thriller" which was released when I was twenty Jackson's music suffered from extreme cheesiness.

It was just corny as fuck!

I assume by now the MJ estate is completely out of debt and runs a profit every year? I wonder how much those kids get? I had to look up to see if Katherine Jackson was even still alive. She is! She is ninety-two!

Yes, r66 is right. I hate to admit it as a Madonna fan but she herself ALONE has destroyed her own legacy. If Madonna had scaled it back after Confessions and not become a hot mess, she would probably be a hugely successful legacy artist.

Michael's death is what sealed his success as a catalogue artist. People remembered what they loved about him and his music's impact on them and pop culture.

I like some of MJ's music but he stopped growing as an artist after Thriller. He just kept using Thriller as a template for each subsequent album, always trying to make the biggest album ever. I still prefer the laid-back nature of Off the Wall. Michael seemed to be having fun when he made that album.

Naomi Campbell sure was gorgeous back then.

I get the gist of what the OP is saying but... I actually really like this song and video. It was directed by the late great Herb Ritts. I think Michael looked his best in this video since the Thriller era.

R70 Are you kidding? He looked freakish. The song was pretty good though.

He was a victim of a ruthless childhood, became the most famous person in the world, and then descended into madness. Go figure.

Superstardom is an unnatural state of being that kills. Even without his paedophila he was doomed, because anyone who got anywhere near his level was also destroyed by it.

R56 I’m 35, growing up in the 90’s, I remember the idea that Frank Sinatra was huge. Frank Sinatra and Elvis.

Their greatest hits albums and box sets were always being sold on TV and collective coins and plates and bullshit.

Frank Sinatra is not huge anymore. A few of his songs are still around from maybe movies but he’s very much faded.

In 20 -30 years, young people will only know MJ’s “Billie Jean”

Yeah the song is very catchy even though I’m not a fan of his and the lyrics and title make me laugh.

Jamon!

I don't think his 80s and 90s music was ridiculous but very simple, gimmicky and family-oriented. He was scared to take risks and wanted to appeal to the broadest audience to maintain his global success. He wasn't changing genres and more of less was forced to adapt hip-hop and New Jack Swing in the 90s for Dangerous and HIStory right as the style was dying out. Prince was a real artist and always took risks sonically. Even Madonna and Janet were exciting artists who evolved with each era. Michael became a parody of himself despite his massive influence.

Off The Wall and his stuff with the Jacksons were more adult with more sophistication to it.

He was a textbook case of a pedophile, except it was on a very grand scale. Looking back, it's amazing that people weren't more aware. It was so obvious.

[quote]it's already happening to Madonna. Never thought I;d actually see her fade out of relevance and turn into Norma Desmond...but here we are.

True. For those of us who are old enough to remember Madonna at the height of her fame, which lasted for YEARS and put her at the very top of the cultural pyramid, it's strange that even a star as huge and world-famous as she was is slipping away into being irrelevant. She was one of the biggest stars who ever lived and it even happened to her.

[quote] I hate to admit it as a Madonna fan but she herself ALONE has destroyed her own legacy. If Madonna had scaled it back after Confessions and not become a hot mess, she would probably be a hugely successful legacy artist.

The problem with Madonna is that she's always been terrified of being a legacy artist. She still wants to pretend she's hip and relevant and can compete with artists who are young enough to be her grandchildren, and of course it's just embarrassing. But don't tell her that. She won't listen.

Some artists, like Stevie Nicks, Bruce Springsteen and Billy Joel accept the fact that they're legacy artists and continue to do their jobs. Then there's Madonna who just doesn't understand it will never be 1990 again and she looks pathetic, trying to jump on the latest trends at her age. She's definitely damaged her legacy with all of her desperate bullshit.

The young generation have artists of their own generation that they follow, they have no interest in somebody who's old enough to be their grandmother. Back in the 80s and 90s my generation wasn't going crazy over Peggy Lee, to put things in perspective.

R4 = Macaulay Culkin.

Up through the BAD album, MJ was putting out great pop music and very popular, by almost any measure. Come the Dangerous album, the landscape had changed in music and pop music wasn't quite as big as it had been in preceding years while alternative rock and grunge took center stage. That album also was lesser than BAD and Thriller in quality. It had less obvious singles and hits. MJ's sound had also not evolved much, making him seem like a relic from another era.

I would also argue MJ had become uncool (outside of adults who had grown up with his earlier music) starting around BAD. It was not cool to like MJ for many kids in the late 80s. He was already being dismissed as a freak, too weird or possibly "gay" to make liking him cool. I think most pop stars would have worked to shore up their image to combat this, but MJ just seemed to press on, either oblivious to becoming "uncool" or choosing to ignore it. He was making music that sounded like Dangerous a decade after that album, so he also seemed reluctant to change his sound at all.

I can separate MJ's music from his personal life and scandals, but would argue his best days were finished by Dangerous in 1991, and after that the main following was more die-hard cult fans or based heavily in nostalgia.

Bobby Brown, MC Hammer, LL Cool J and Bel Biv Devoe and others were replacements for Michael as his career was cooling down.

^Um, no. None of them could hold a candle to Michael when he was at the top of his game.

R84 Never said they did. But the industry is about all replacing with younger and shinier. They were all popular enough in the late 80s/early 90s hip-hop era with the youth. Breakdancing and rapping was in. Michael aged out and became corny.

[quote] Looking back, it's amazing that people weren't more aware. It was so obvious.

Pretty much everyone knew by the later stages of his career (post-"Bad"). There were jokes about it all the time (e.g. "Why doesn't Michael Jackson like going to Churchill Downs?" "Because they won't let him ride the three-year-olds"), and he was even arrested for it. But his lawyers were smart about paying off the victims and their families, so charges would be brought against him and then dropped.

It was weird though that for a few years, when he did the "Captain E-O" movie, mainstream America bought that nonsense that he just liked to hang out with children because he was a child at heart. Even then I think most people who had any sharpness to them knew what was going on. I still think he abused some of those child stars like Macaulay Culkin and Corey Feldman who have insisted he did not do anything untoward to him. And of course there are several now who maintain he DID abuse them, even though he paid them off.

Usher is the only one who I feel was the truest successor to Michael Jackson since he had a long successful run on the charts and put on amazing energy on stage. The 2000s was filled with MJ/Usher clones like Justin Timberlake, Ne-Yo, Trey Songz, Chris Brown, Jason Derulo, Bruno Mars and Justin Bieber. The Weeknd is basically famous for sounding like Michael Jackson.

R86 I'm black and every other black person I ask "would you let your kid share a bed with Michael Jackson?" Almost all of them said "fuck No!" Most of the MJ apologists are white women I noticed. Michael was made fun of all the time by black comedians. The Boondocks and Black Dynamite made fun of him too. Mike was rumored to be gay, a perv and a self-hating Black man who bleached his skin. Nobody believes those kids are biologically his either. Black forums regularly tear the Jacksons apart. Janet less so because she's less messy and didn't distance herself from the Black community.

MJ's cult is mostly white women who bend over backwards for him.

R88 I agree, and his fanbase also really shrank in the US from the early 90s onward, at an ever faster pace throughout that decade. He was "still big in Germany" or certain other places, but really a non-entity in larger music markets by the year 2000.

But why was he attracted to kids?

MJ was definitely over with mainstream audiences by the early 90s. Dangerous was a shit album and sounded so dated. And of course by that time his hideous plastic surgery and bizarre behavior had turned off a lot of people. He was seen as a total freak.

Serious question: Was MJ trans? He looks and sounds like a man attempting to become a woman, though he didn't fuck with his pronouns. He did more transitioning than Lia Thomas.

R92 He's fascinating to me from a psychological perspective. I believe he would have grown up to be a normal gay male had Joe Jackson not abused him so horrifically combined with the extreme religion that is Jehovah's Witness. I imagine Michael didn't get to have normal relationships or be a regular teen with all that pressure as the star. He probably also had genetic disposition to personality disorders or some type of autism. Pedophilia is a paraphilic disorder I don't know what causes it but I heard theories pedophiles have trauma or damage to their brain development which stunts then emotionally. So Michael Jackson was stunted emotionally as an effeminate gay boy attracted to other boys. He also idealized whiteness, so imagined himself as a little white boy. Not justifying this sickness but trying to explain it some way. People need to be honest and admit he was sick.

I've known three gay men in my adult life who were raised in the Jehovah's Witness cult and holy shit were they all damaged individuals. TONS of issues.

He was criminally insane

His music was purchased by little kids, no one over the age of 18 liked him. His music was kiddie pop and after saying that the weird parallels his phedoism. I have just creeped myself out. Soooo maybe he was hunting with his music.

Adults loved MJ in the 80s, it wasn't just kids playing his music.

R96 is so egregiously wrong that it's laughable. People of ALL ages were (and still are) into Michael's music.

Ewwww

Billie Jean is still a good song and has stood the test of time.

Agree that Lisa Marie Presley didn't seem to know what she was getting into. She seemed like she was really in love with MJ.

Pffffft

Another comment I have is that his music after BAD (starting with "Leave Me Alone" during the BAD era) really started to dwell heavily, thematically, on how he was perceived and abused/vilified by the press. Practically everything he released after that seemed to focus on it. In a way, he seemed to obsess over being victimized by the media. That alone was a turn off in terms of his musical output. Yes, the press likes to be "mean" to you, but do you expect them to just ignore the fact that you have started to resemble a ghostly white female with mountains of plastic surgery and a very bizarre lifestyle? MJ never really addressed these questions.

[quote]The marriage to Lisa Marie Presley was one of the most awkward things I’ve ever seen in my life.

Yeah, what a cringefest!

His music was very paranoid. Especially History. Except for the shit cover of Smile.

It’s a shame that Madonna cannot embrace being a legacy artist. Nobody gives a fuck about Madame X or her stupid revolution. Nobody wants to be lectured by an entitled white woman who spends thousands on plastic surgery.

She has also killed her touring niche with her shitty behaviour of showing up at midnight. No respect for her crew or the venue crew.

The only thing about MJ’s allegations is that there weren’t many.

In the 20 years of Neverland and the thousands of children, there’s a handful who filed civil lawsuits for money. The two main accusers were from grifter families.

He doesn’t align with people like Cosby or Weinstein, Epstein, or R. Kelly. Or look at Jimmy Savile - 300+ victim allegations against him. Local priests in Boston suburbs had more allegations and charges against them than Michael Jackson.

I don’t doubt he was a pedophile, it’s was he a child molester. People confuse the two - a pedo is someone who is sexually attracted to children and when they act on it, they are child molesters. People also confuse statutory rape which is sex with a post-pubescent minor.

I honestly believe MJ was a look but don’t touch. I don’t think he ever sex, I think it repulsed him.

R89 It is true that he was still very big in Germany at least until 1999. I guess the German's didn't mind the rumors about him because over there the age of consent is 14.

The two from the documentary are proven grifters.

R84 Which was “Thriller”.

“Off The Wall” was a Platinum album. It sold a million records before “Thriller”.

I wasn’t alive but it seemed like he had his big moment with “Thriller” and used his image to turn himself to a God.

Even though his record sales kept declining and declining he was still able to keep his Godly status.

Beyonce has followed that same thing.

Adele is doing something kinda similar right now just on a smaller scale.

He was never able to write a song about real deep human emotion becuase he chose a life of isolation. Thriller was about his love of horror movies. He had to depend on outside writers for any songs about love or other human emotions.

Michael was immature. Deep lyrics that reflect humanity and make us question things are the domains of adults with life experience.

He looks like a white nerd guy here. How is such surgery possible?

R108 Yes. Beyonce and Taylor Swift irritate me with their godly images despite the fact they're now artists who rely on and pander to their diehard fans for sales and streams rather than mainstream. The only difference between them and Michael is. I think both B and TS had longer peaks of being media darlings. Michael began going crazy and getting musically repetitive after Bad.

^Michael Jackson was wildly popular as a child and continued to be so throughout his adulthood. B and TS are small potatoes by comparison.

R113 You need to learn to read. You keep repeating the same things. I said Beyoncé and Taylor Swift are worshipped by their fans in an intense manner that's reminiscent of Michael Jackson's fanbase. But Michael Jackson as a solo artist was adored by the media up until the later 80s when his bizarre behavior became noticeable. Beyoncé and Taylor Swift kept their wholesome images for much longer and while they didn't sell nearly as much as MJ did, they maintained a longer period of success because they released more albums consistently. Realistically it be hard do beat MJ and Madonna's sales and impact. But I named these two because they are probably the closest comparison to them in our current century.

There was one study that found a supposed possible association between pedophilia and traumatic head/brain injuries in early childhood.

Whatever the cause, it seems a fixed and possibly innate condition. I don't think a "normal gay guy" having a "strict religious upbringing" would "make them a pedophile".

In terms of public understanding of what he was, that only seemed to become widespread after the first allegations. Many people just swallow what they're told, and earlier on the narrative was that Michael "was reliving the childhood he lost". That never rang true to me. His obsession with young boys of a certain age seemed all consuming.

R115 True point. He was certainly damaged. I never bought the "reliving childhood" thing either. The notion of a carefree childhood playing games all day is historically a modern Western thing. Child labor was commonplace until recently. And most black children in Jim Crow times didn't have the same privileges as white children and were working at young ages. I do think most pedophiles are in arrested development and behave very immaturely due to some traumatic brain damage. Same with serial killers. Tumors or damage to the prefrontal cortex. Joe's abusive parenting couldn't have helped and I don't like the apologetics here. Many black parents were tough but Joe was just mean in ways that weren't justified. He allegedly raped Rebbie and La Toya and was cold to Janet.

[quote]You need to learn to read. You keep repeating the same things.

You need to learn to own what you say. You said B and TS had longer periods as media darlings and mentioned no “solo artist” stipulations, so—no. Michael was a darling of the media since the J5 hit the scene all the way through Bad and even Dangerous, despite the oddities, dear.

I think most people here are overestimating how much the public cared about his personal issues, and even more now because he's been dead a long time. This is a gossip site, but outside of that most people are indifferent. They associate his hits with a time in their life gone by and that's it. Its not that deep.

R117 Ok.

[quote]He was never able to write a song about real deep human emotion becuase he chose a life of isolation. Thriller was about his love of horror movies. He had to depend on outside writers for any songs about love or other human emotions.

Yeah, most blockbuster music acts don't write their own hits. Like I said before I don't associate the person with the music, because showbusiness is so very contrived. It's a business people. Those songs are shopped around to death. Business managers, designers, directors design a marketable product and the artists just execute vision. Michael Jackson was the master executer because he knew nothing else in life but music. Same with Beyonce.

'What Have You Done For Me Lately' was not even intended for Janet Jackson but it ended up being her first single from Control. 'No Scrubs' was for Britney Spears but ended up with TLC. Most artists just deliver the songs they are given and if they are lucky and have some talent they have a huge hit. .

La Toya seems really sweet but very troubled. I wouldn't be surprised if Joe (the father) assaulted her (sexually or otherwise) when she was a child. Even Katherine, the mother, acknowledged that Joe beat Michael.

There were a lot of really bizarre and disturbing rumours associated with Michael early in his childhood fame. Apart from the beatings and abuse, which seem to be confirmed, there was some weirder stuff. None of the below is substantiated. * There were rumours he was being medically stunted or delayed (if that's even possible) to stop puberty from ruining him as a money making child star. * There were rumours his teen acne treatment did something horrible to him, developmentally. He had very bad acne. * During her rogue years, LaToya seemed to strongly suggest Michael had been sexually molested by a family member.

He seems he really could have been autistic too. He had an obsession with Diana Ross and even mimicked her speaking voice.

LaToya, when she was estranged from her family, quoted her mother as saying of Michael: "I can't stand that f*ggot."

Definitely r102. Jackson's music became about what a victim he was and how he felt sorry for himself. It was weird and boring.

Also, his pedophilia really took over post-Thriller. Off the Wall and Thriller were great, adult-oriented albums. Then with Bad the young boys were a constant presence in his stage show and his public life. Macaulay Culkin co-starred in one of the videos from Dangerous. It was all young boys, all the time, everytime you saw Jackson. The cool, adult artist from the Off the Wall and Thriller days was gone.

Once Katherine dies. I imagine some juicy secrets will come out. Jermaine is still pushing the Jackson propaganda train though as that's his income.

LaToya said straight out, during her rogue years, that her father molested both her and Rebbie. She said Rebbie married young so she could leave the family home and get away from the father. The mother knew this was happening. To the best of my knowledge Rebbie has never denied this.

R125 the young boys had started at the peak of Thriller. Remember at the Grammys in 1984 he brought Emmanuel Lewis? I think Lewis has said MJ didn’t pull anything with him, but he and Culkin could be lying too.

Good point r115. Joe Jackson didn’t spare the Rod, so it wouldn’t surprise me if he hit his children in the head more than once. Who knows for sure?

Did the Jacksons ever use up those Baja Fresh coupons?

r128 the young boys didn't really become a part of Jackson's stage shows and albums/videos until Bad.

Elizabeth Taylor, Bette Davis and Michael Jackson. Miss Davis does not look amused.

^^^^three generations of white women r131…

Random--remember when MJ dangled his child off of a balcon in (I think) Denmark? His fans went wild, screaming as loud as they could. I cannot imagine any other big star doing that and getting rewarded with applause. If Madonna did that, DCFS would (correctly) be at her doorstep and she wouldn't just be an old hag, she'd be an old hag who dangles children out of the window.

R120: it doesn’t take away from your point but for any music nerds out there, I think you mean Baby One More Time was meant for TLC but Britney ended up recording it. No Scrubs was always a TLC song (well maybe originally planned as an Xscape song - the group Kandi Buruss was from), it wasn’t written for Britney.

Rock With You was originally offered to Karen Carpenter, of all people, for her ill-fated solo album.

No Scrubs wouldn't fit Britney's boy-crazy popular girl image. Baby One More Time would not have fit TLC's female empowerment image.

Toy was beaten and coerced to lie about her family by her crazy husband (at the time) Jack Gordon.

Rebbie doesn't make her young years seem like a holy terror here...

Janet speaking on how La Toya made up lies...

MJ stan is on a bender I see..

The family...

The Jacksons were on the level of The Osmonds in the 70s... when family acts beame popular once again.. . both had considerable commercial appeal could transcend generations, classes, other blocs to gain a universal status. But by the 80s, there were only a few standouts from the respective groups. Jimmy was the successor, though he never quite gained as much favor as MJ did.

MJ was a genre breaker... yes, part of it was the equivalent of him moving from chaste dinsey type of girl into an evil queen.. But it was his theft of dance and style from performers that could never break the mainstream that led to his success... he truly was the Elvis of his era. It's more interesting how he retains large black support despite possessing many interests which get deemed as acting or desiring to be "white" and "inauthentic" -- though by proxy, he carried the representation of what his family was in the 70s, which is rooted in the foundation of American history of a strong, black, nuclear family. . . in essence, The Jacksons were the basis for The Cosbys. It represented African Americans transcendence into the middle class, upper middle and inevitably rich. . . with widespread recongition that it was possible. They were more symbol than talent. . . but that was the reason behind the mass appeal -- with the dying breath of motown with feel good music. The last bastians of the American dream

Gurl yall know Bobby DeBarge "switched" teams after he broke up with LaToya back in the day 🌈

Did MJ steal his dance moves? I know he said that Bob Fosse was a big influence and I know he didn't invent the moonwalk but what other moves did he borrow/steal?

of course, the concept of black masculinity... always had a bit of flamboyance to it. . . one only needs to review the "pimps" of the day to see just how flamboyant it was. But today's standards are archaic and vastly more conservative. . . with the influence of sociopolitical theories on gender norms, as established by radical feminists and their rebellious children of trans trenders.

r146 Everything else becomes derivative of the original theft. . . much of which was central to the single glove. The outside jock strap.. and crotch grab. He really only had one style and a small set of moves that became his trademark and gave him icon status... despite being repeated over and over again. This is why he and Madonna are so frequently compared...

The Jacksons (primarily Michael and to a lesser degree Janet, particularly during her time separated by the alleged abuser bf/husband that wanted nothing to do with her family and yet made her seem competent) wasn't so much original dancers as they became great choreographers, directors... they could think big picture, large production on the level of spike jonez. One could only imagine what could have been had they ever gone the musical route but they grew up in an era when musicals suffered, failed more than succeeded... so, that bais remained firm when they could earn so much more for so much less.

Some say it was Jeffrey Daniel from Shalamar who taught Michael the Moonwalk, and others say it was the recently deceased legendary breakdancer Bruno "Poppin' Taco" Falcon from the Breakin' films, who subsequently went on to tour with Michael and appear in some of his videos. Here's Jeffrey doing the Moonwalk on TOTP.

R130 who knows when he started his penchant for little boys. It could’ve been as late as Bad but it could’ve been as early as the Thriller days. The sight of him carrying Lewis around at the Grammys no less was just weird and fucked up.

All I'll say is that LaToya must've been a fantastic actress if these comments (below) weren't sincere or were somehow forced upon her.

^ Notice how she explains she wasn't into sex because she was molested by her father. That's not something one casually throws into a conversation; that is sincere. She never really dated, and never married or had kids.

[quote]She never really dated, and never married or had kids.

Uh, it was literally said upthread that her former (now dead) husband abused her.

He was a great musician but I can’t stand his fans. They call every other celebrity a predator but completely excuse his inappropriate friendships with young boys.

Uh, they never had sex, it was a business arrangement and she wanted it annulled. NOT a true marriage and definitely not sexual.

Imagine if some guy who lived on your street invited all the little boys in the neighborhood over for a sleepover. The parents would be calling the cops in two seconds.

Some of the mothers whored their sons. He would literally give them his credit cards and say, go shopping, to get rid of them. Maybe they didn't do this truly consciously, but their greed and vanity blinkered them and there had to be some wilful denial going on there.

I do think the media could be vicious towards Michael and I feel sorry for his childhood (or lack of) but he completely crossed boundaries with children and there’s no excuse for that. Even if he didn’t molest anyone and the families/victims were all out for his money, he sure put himself in the position to be accused multiple times.

La Toya's book from 1991 is really good. She gives good insight into the Jackson family. Her ex-husband Jack Gordon was trash but I believe every word she wrote so I don't think there was much coercing. She didn't allege Michael was an abuser at this point (the allegations didn't come out until two years later) but she painted Katherine as very cold and anti-Semitic and Janet in a similar vein (also anti-Semitic - which is probably why Janet has never really cooled towards La Toya).

She also describes a chilling encounter at Phil Spector's house. This was years before he was convicted of killing Lana Clarkson.

It’s interesting. Twitter is all “believe victims” but not when it comes to MJ?

He was completely broke and his career was over before his death. His sudden death resurrected public’s interest in his music

Janet punched LaToya in Minneapolis.

He had a very dark side even beyond the pedophilia. It's well known her sabotaged his siblings' careers.

Details, r162…

Jermaine had a book once (in his own period where he was disassociating from the family like LaToya later would) where he said Joe would make Michael wait around after shows and be taken to private rooms with older gentleman, under the guise of 'business opportunities.' Basically it was implied Joe was whoring Michael out when he was a child and an extremely popular performer. It's not hard to believe.

I think he spent the rest of his life chasing his childhood and sexualising children, because he was sexualised as a child himself and never really had a childhood. The fact that there were few accusers doesn't mean shit when he paid so many off. La Toya herself said she found lots of paper trails at Katherine's house.

LaToya's music career was always shit and didn't last long, and she was the family fuck-up by the early 90s when she made the anti-MJ statements, but I tend to think that she believed what she was saying at the time. Obviously she wanted publicity from saying it as well, and I am sure MJ and the rest of the family had treated her like shit, which made her not give a fuck about trashing them.

MJ probably was very jealous of Janet, too, as her career eclipsed his in the 90s. He seemed to believe his popularity was perpetually at 1983 levels, when it most definitely wasn't.

Lots of very dark stuff going on in that family through the decades.

As far as the music, it did get incredibly uncool after 'Remember The Time'. Like, almost immediately. All the kumbayah shit, where he would often appear as a creepy Jesus figure surrounded by children. 'Heal The World' and 'Earth Song' and 'Childhood'... later all the 'woe is me - the media are so mean' songs like 'Scream', and 'Tabloid Junkie.' As was said upthread, Prince and Madonna and George Michael and Janet were more on the cutting edge of new sounds and styles. Janet even had forays into hard rock, house music, electronica, and neo soul / hip hop with her Janet and Velvet Rope albums. He resented her success and acclaim for the rest of his life but needed her to help him (working with HER songwriting team, and video team for 'Scream' to rehabilitate his image), and resented that too.

He got weirder looking and lost a lot of his cool factor as the music got worse. By the time that infamous BBC documentary came out and he was parodied in Scary Movie 3, he was considered a whacko and a laughing stock by my entire school. Though he will always have his deranged fanbase with a million excuses for all his odd behaviour and their pretending he was some kind of lady killer (I can't seriously believe any of them genuinely think this).

R104 it was hardly a touring niche for Madonna, she's the highest grossing solo touring artist in history with the biggest female tour of all time , her 2008-2009 tour

I have a feeling she'll finally do a greatest hits tour and have a big tour again, she NEEDS an image overhaul first

As for Madame X, it was a concept and it wasn't bad, one thing you can say about Madonna is that all her albums, videos, photoshootas, stage performances etc follows a concept and a theme a d then her next album she has a new theme and concept and many times a new sound

She went from a makes sex freak during Erotica to a spiritual, overdressed Earth Mother for Ray of Light in just 5 years, sometimes it's like a completely different artist with her

R168 is this her best madame x single?

[quote]Did people really believe he was some hetero stud?

"Hetero stud?" Seriously? Where are you pulling that from? He had gay rumors swirling around him since "Off the Wall." Some die hard fans swore he was straight as an arrow and devoutly religious, but most people thought he was gay or bi at best. The pedophile whispers didn't start until the later 80s, when he was hanging with Macauley Culkin all the time and hosting playdates and sleepovers at Neverland.

He was a true progressive

revealing...

R171 is ridiculous. Ola Ray, transgender? Not hardly.

His music became a display of vocal tics and squeals, and increasingly meaningless.

I wish he had properly updated his dance moves in the 90s. His 80s moves and poses were more than tired by the time In The Closet came out.

The crotch grabbing was ridiculous and the random, relentless “whoo!” In every damn song was incredibly self indulgent.

R105 He still owned books that contained nude photographs of young boys.

He loved those young white boys…

r178 was he racist?

I think his early music was amazing and extremely popular. I’m disgusted by his interest in very young boys. I also don’t like his tours for one thing, and unlike Madonna, he recycled every dance moves from previous tours and the choreography was virtually the same in every tour. How lazy he was! Janet has made the same mistake and it’s the main reason she’s not a touring force.

He had brown boys too, Hispanic, biracial and Middle Eastern. But that's why don't buy his "I love all children" bullshit. He only singled out attractive white or brown-skinned boys between 10 to 13 years old. He was a hebephile attracted to pubescent boys. As soon as they developed a deeper voice and body hair, he dumped them.

Where were the girls (he excluded 50% of the child population), the disabled, obese, and the black and East Asian kids?

I remember a Joan Rivers joke where she talked about how she wasn't cute as a kid - "Oh I was such an attractive child. Even Michael Jackson would have come up to me and said 'seen any boys?'

I loved Off the Wall, and sort of loved Thriller, but that's it. Diminishing returns from there on out.

Diminishing returns after what is the biggest selling album in the world ain’t such a bad thing. Thriller was a once in a lifetime phenomenon.

I actually would argue Bad was a better album than Thriller. But everything after Bad declined in quality and became progressively more tiresome.

After Bad, MJ himself declined in quality and became progressively more tiresome

Off the Wall still sounds so fresh today. Thriller to me sounds awfully dated, as much as Like a Virgin is.

Is this the first ever example of the Moonwalk? Decades before MJ.

R187 yes Like a Virgin is extremely dated yet Ray of Light or Music isn't

Frozen or Music could be released as singles today

Agreed about Frozen but Music was dated the second it was released. It sounds incredibly cheesy now.

Ray of Light is mostly dated sounding. It's completely product of its time. Let's not kid ourselves. I think Erotica sounds less dated.

R190 nah Music sounded very cutting edge fkr pop, the era of N Sync and Britney at the time

It was also MASSIVE everywhere, the year 2000's #1 song worldwide, named single of the year by Rolling Stone, Entertainment Weekly, People

Grammy nominated for the top category, Record of the Year

Michael just didn't have that kind of success later in his career

The Ray of Light DEMOS still sound incredible, you can find them on youtube. They still sound very fresh compared to the album which sounds overproduced by comparison. Especially Nothing Really Matters. Why did she have to turn a genuinely moving ballad into a loud techno song with lots of bleeping noises?

NSYNC and Britney sound dated now too. They were always cheesy. Grammys never meant shit. Madonna still was popular in the 2000s though, so you're right about that.

It is incredible that Madonna had a third decade of success. None of the other members of the big four--Celine, Mariah, Whitney--had that luck. The only other popular entertainers who had that kind of consistent success would be Elton and Barbra.

But enough fangurling over Madonna, queens. This is an MJ thread. And she was not the only female pop star who came to prominence in the ‘80s to have success spanning three decades. Janet’s 2000 single from Nutty Professor II made her the first artist to have a Hot 100 #1 in the ‘80/‘90s/2000s, and 2001’s All For You won a Grammy, was the longest-running Hot 100 #1 single that year and smashed records at radio as being the most added song at radio in its week of release.

Actually, Barbra was popular for a 4th decade during the 90s, that's incredible. No other popular entertainer managed that.

Mariah had #1's in the 90s, 00s, 10s, and 20s, and was the first artist to do so. I bet she didn't think it would be that damn Christmas song that would keep her relevant for decades, back when she wrote it in the 90s.

Too many people give him credit for his "genius" when so much of his music was created by collaborators. Michael simply would have not had the career he had as an adult without the GENIUS of Rod Temperton.

I liked Off The Wall well enough, and bits and pieces of his other work, but Thriller's success was in part a stroke of luck and timing.

There was a reason why Neverland was in the middle of fucking nowhere, with no neighbors around. And Jackson turned the whole place into a children's amusement park. He was such a sick fuck.

Thriller sold respectfully in the initial months, but after that amazing video was released (and it IS the best music video of all time), everything exploded. It was a literal phenomenon. People were taking early lunch breaks and skipping school to watch it.

Quincy Jones was behind the magic. When MJ dropped Q after Bad, it was all over for MJ. Dangerous was his last legit album thanks mainly to the singles produced by new jack swing producers. Scream was a Janet Jackson song really, Michael just outstaged her as usual.

R198, Mariah's popularity ended in 2008, same as Madonna. Sure, they had some hit songs after that but it was obvious that 2008 was their last breathe. When I am talking about Barbra having a fourth decade, I mean that she was going multiplatinum releasing new music. If we are referring to catalogue performance, then The Beatles are still popular to this day. They stream better than Michael Jackson whose career was much more recent.

*breath

[quote]Michael simply would have not had the career he had as an adult without the GENIUS of Rod Temperton.

Not really. For Off The Wall, Rod Temperton wrote Rock With You, which was a huge #1 song, but Michael wrote Don't Stop Til You Get Enough, which was also a huge #1. Temperton wrote the title track, which peaked at #10, but his other album contribution wasn't released as a single.

As far as Thriller, the album, goes, the biggest hits (The Girl Is Mine, Billie Jean, Beat It, and Wanna Be Startin' Somethin') were written by Michael. Tempterton wrote the title track, which hit the top 5, due in large part to the video, and the popularity of the previous hits, but his other contributions to the album, Baby Be Mine, and The Lady In My Life, were the only songs on the album that didn't get released as singles.

Michael also wrote all but one of the biggest hits on the Bad album. Temperton did not contribute.

It's not really a fair statement to say Michael's adult career wouldn't have been what it was without Rod Temperton. The man wrote only 3 of Michael's many hits, and it was Michael who wrote most of them. Now if you were talking about Quincy Jones, then I might agree, as he produced Off The Wall, Thriller, and Bad, and definitely played a huge part in the success of those albums.

One thing that bothered me about MJ was that he LIP-SYNCHED so many of his performances. People blast Madonna for it but Madonna really only lips a few songs in her shows.

MJ's iconic performance of Billie Jean at Motown 25 was completely lipped.

How do MJ's insane fans explain how he dropped his "friends" like a hot potato when they reached a certain age? Even if they don't believe he molested them, how can they justify and excuse the emotional abuse of MJ abandoning a child because they're too old in the eyes of their beloved King of Pop?

R207, they don't. Michael Jackson fans live in an alternate universe. And they never mention how he always went after BOYS. If he really loved children, why was he never with young girls? He didn't love children, he wanted to rape young boys.

MJ was no pedophile. Many kids loves MJ and were never abused when they slept over. Stop tarnishing his name.

[quote]Michael just outstaged her as usual.

Nice try, but no. What actually happened was, Michael was so perturbed by her powerful vocals that he had the mix during her verse turned down.

That Scream song is long forgotten

Looks like MJbot and Vadgebot took over the thread...

@r197 uhhh Cher? She has been popular in every decade since the 60s. She had a song in the top 10 of a billboard chart for 6 decades. Believe was number 1 in 21 countries. Cher is still hip. Babs is for ancient white people and musical theater gays.

R147 I’d say masculinity is still a bit flamboyant. Rappers today are more flamboyant than they ever were. Young Thug wears dresses.

White masculine men are not supposed to care about fashion, it’s associated with homosexuality. Whereas masculine black men are fashionable.

But that’s post-80’s because white men seemed to be more flamboyant and fashionable in the 70’s and 80’s.

R198: I’m a Mariah fan and obviously you’re correct about her having hit #1 in the 90s, 00s, 10s and the 20s. But I wouldn’t say that fact makes her successful in four decades when the 10s and 20s is from the same Christmas song. Everything else she’s released since 2008 has pretty much bombed, singles and albums-wise. And albums getting a week in the top 10 the week of release don’t count as a success.. A minor hit in 2013 (Beautiful), a 2009 song getting a few streams a decade later due to some Tik Tok crap (Obsessed) are about her only ‘successes’ since then. It’s a shame as I thought Caution was a great album and deserved to do better.

I probably should have said ‘relevant’ rather than ‘successful’ above in replying to you R198. All I Want For Christmas Is You’ getting streamed to death and played to death on the radio every December doesn’t really make her relevant. If anything it highlights how irrelevant all her other musical output has been for the last decade and a half.

I was surprised at how fast Mariah faded from popularity. She was so huge for quite a few years and then she was just suddenly over.

R217 Well she had two stages of popularity. She was strong for a solid 10 years until “Glitter” in 2001. And then she had a second dud “Charmbracelet” in 2002 but then came back strong with “The Emancipation of Mimi” in 2005.

Her follow-up was weak in 2008 and her popularity was still riding the wave off “Mimi”. None of the singles stuck and then she dropped the ball with the next album even though the lead “Obsessed” was a hit.

The radio landscape by 2008 / 2009 had changed and her ballads weren’t aligned with what was popular on the radio anymore.

So it wasn’t sudden. She kept getting chances with her lead singles and couldn’t follow them up for 2 albums.

R215 “Caution” was a great Mariah Carey album. But she’s almost 50, radio is not going to play her.

I don’t think Madonna or Mariah will ever get Cher moments.

Young kids are more ruthless with ageism than ever before. Like todays female artists are over as soon as they hit 21 lol. Mariah and Madonna are fossils to them.

True r219. Madonna and Maria might as well be 100 years old as far as this generation is concerned. Everything is SO young now.

R218: I think Mariah had awful management for years too. And naming an album ‘Me I Am Mariah… The Elusive Chanteuse’. It was embarrassing. Plus delaying its release and (dire) follow-up single after Beautiful made the top 20. It was probably her last chance to get back on top again and she blew it.

[quote]Teddy Riley gave Michael Jackson a new sound for the 90s.

Yep.

And, fun music fact: Blackstreet's song "Joy" was originally written for Michael's Dangerous album but didn't make it on the album.

If you listen to it, you can definitely hear that Dangerous style in the vocals and composition. Man was a genius.

Sigh. My childhood. :(

R219: it’s funny I remember in 1994/1995 Madonna was always called ‘Grandma’ or referred to as old in the biggest teen music magazine at the time in the UK, Smash Hits. She would have been all of 35/36. So there’s always been that ageism but then I guess the difference now is the newest singers are all so young. Back in the 80s/90s most singers started at 20 or later. It’s why Tiffany and Debbie Gibson were given so much attention as they were so relatively young at 16/17.

R220 Yeah. I look back at the 90’s growing up and the singers were older. Like how old was Paula Cole and Melissa Etheridge when they blew up?

Like you have to be 16-18 to get played on the radio if you’re going to sing.

R223 I remember being at my Nana’s house and I was watching MTV and Madonna’s “Don’t Tell Me” came on and she looked over her newspaper and said “isn’t she a little old to be playing in the sandbox?”

R221 She had a lot of fuck ups before that.

After “Touch My Body”, she released the wrong songs as singles. “Bye Bye” was the second single and it bombed and radio just moved on from the album. It’s not a very good album, most of the songs are just knock offs of “We Belong Together” but “Cruise Control” and “Migrate” would have been better singles.

The problem with the next album is she was angry “Obsessed” didn’t go #1 and so she pushed the album back and recorded that horrible Foreigner cover of “I Want To Know What Love Is” and that bombed too.

That’s what ended it. She tried to shoot for ballads to keep her on the radio and fumbled the ball.

Growing up, I never liked him or got his appeal. The hype just seemed totally misplaced. Admittedly some of this classics like Billie Jean were before my time, and I only knew his later stuff but he just seemed so incredibly overrated and weird, alien and creepy.

Billie Jean being before somebody’s time is making me feel old.

I have not seen any music stars as iconic, and highly famous and successful as Madonna, Michael, and Elvis in the last 50 years.

Michael was never proven guilty and is no longer here to defend himself.

Ridiculous music? As opposed to the brilliant output from today’s artists?

Yes, it went off the rails after Thriller. My siblings and I were tweens when Thriller came out and we lived for that album. But once we saw the Bad video with the crotch grabbing, we all knew that something was seriously wrong with him and I don't think we ever listened to him or mentioned him again.

He was a talented voice actor

He must have been preyed on himself.

No and Latoya knew too.

^Lies brought to you by coercion from Jack Gordon.

You really think someone could make Latoya act that well?

Well, Gordon did beat her over the head with a chair, so you tell me?

I remember the live Oprah special where she asked him why he grabbed his crotch. He didn't realize he did it was the answer.

Who cares?

What I want to know is why didn't Rebe Jackson become more famous?

Rebbie

Michael Jackson's creepy af art collection.

They all seem to love him in the comment section and believe he was falsely accused because he wanted to take the music industry down. Do y'all think so too? What was he even trying to take down?

R243- I think a lot of his so called fans and internet supporters are paid troll farms his family hire to keep the money rolling in. Jmo

[quote]Billie Jean being before somebody’s time is making me feel old.

Billie Jean was 40 years ago.

MJ wanting to take down the music industry from which his entire wealth depended on? No.

The only things MJ was interested in taking down were his young boy fans' Underoos.

[quote]Billie Jean was 40 years ago.

Your point?

MJ had a cult when alive. Now it's morphed into a religion as he's dead. You can't reason with Jackson church followers, they worship the man as a god.

MJ looked and sounded his best on his Off The Wall record.

He looked his best when Thriller was released. He should have stopped messing with his face then.

What did Michael Jackson and pimples have in common?

They both came all over your face at age 12.

Well i know a MJ fan, and yea, she absoluvely believes that MJ is innocent and he had eterosexual sex with his wife and women.

For her the children were manipulated by their families(greedy about MJ money) to accuse Micheal and get more money and they were absolutely ungrateful and MJ is an angel that tried to save them from a very poor underground.

She doesn't even believe that MJ bleached his skin.

His work begs the query, "Was it great, or were you 8?"

I wonder just how much freaky and wierd he would have looked if he was still around. He was falling to bits and patched together in his last years, imagine now? It would have been nice to see him go to prison for his vile sex abuse of young boys. We would have seen pics that had been taken secretly inside prison of Whacko without the cheap wig, no makeup, no more skin bleaching. He was so repulsive, feeble and ugly that I can’t even imagine that any of the other prisoners would want to fuck him.

R219 Madonna kind of already had her Cher moment, she was 47 when Hung Up went to #1 in 43 countries

And 50 when 4 Minutes went to #1 in over 20 countries

She also still has #1 albums and was 60 when Madame X debuted at #1 in 2019 it didn't sell great but it has an impressive 200 million plus streams on Spotify alone

Cher was 52 when Believe went #1 but she hasn't had a big hit since and she's NEVER had a#1 album her entire career

What's more impressive having 3 #1 albums in your 50s like Madonna has had or having one #1 single in your 50s like Cher did?

The whole family knew Michael was a child molester, but they were all (except Janet) very heavily financially dependent on him. If he'd been destroyed by the allegations, the Jackson family would be on the street. I'm sure they were disgusted by what he did, but they depended on him to live, and also were well used to covering up sex crimes within the family "for the greater family good".

I never thought his songs would age so quickly. Some of them are impossible to listen today, in terms of music. Except for Billie Jean, I wanna be starting something, Human nature, Ben, and some hits from the Jackson 5 like Can you can feel it, all his songs have aged badly

Almost all pop music dates very badly, and a shocking amount of it becomes almost forgotten and culturally invisible, just within a decade or so. In another 50 years, when most of MJ's original fans are dead, he will be gone from culture, in the same way that El.vis is now almost gone, or was before the recent movie.

I believe LaToya when she said the mother called Michael a "damned f@ggot".

R258 You're right but for example I still love a lot of 80s pop musics. And many of the pop songs of those years have aged well. Like Kate Bush or Eurythmics, The Cure, Depeche Mode etc..Strangely not those of the "king of Pop"...

I feel that most of his hits post=Thriller were based on momentum and hype.

It feels like the Off The Wall stuff still has some genuine life left in it. That material made it on its own merits and not hype.

R261 True that. The only masterpiece in the Thriller album was Billie Jean. That was a new type of song. It was very good.

From Bad, the flame was extinguished. He came back after 4 years with a white face and a strange style. Michael was already dead. The artist I mean.

It's interesting that a gay fanbase was almost non existent for him even in his prime, given how camp he was.

@r255 Has Madonna had a number 1 hit in 21 countries after age 52? Hits nowadays are also so manufactured and not as impressive, though I agree Madonna has had more financial success than Cher in her years after 50. It’s just that nobody cares when Madonna does it. Cher always changed the game when she made a comeback. Believe was the first song to use autotune introducing the world to the new sound. Cher was always the next thing. In the 60s she was the first hippie looking and sounding female in music besides Janis Joplin. And she also used the new wall-of-sound sound in her music thanks to Sonny Bono. In the 70s, Cher was the first woman to show her bellybutton on TV. In the 80s Cher was already doing the barely-there sexual outfits at 4o which was old then. Madonna doing it at 40 and 50 was a bore and now it’s just gross. Idk what Madonna represents tbh, I guess some endless ‘do what I want’ rebelliousness, but it’s always been uninteresting and teenager-y to me.

R265 Madonna has had 3 #1 albums since she turned 50 including her last at 60, that's more impressive that. Having ONE #1 SINGLE at 52 like Cher did

Although that's impressive too

The only female artist older than Madonna to have a #1 album is Streisand

Why are we talking about M######?

@265 it’s impressive but I just don’t see it being as big a deal anymore these days to people outside her fan base. Nobody could tell you a Madonna song or album that was heard everywhere in recent decades. maybe Hung Up ? Maybe ? Everyone remembers Believe.

[quote] Believe was the first song to use autotune introducing the world to the new sound.

You say that as if it was a good thing.

R268 both Music and Hung Up were just as big if not bigger than Believe worldwide

In fact Believe was the #1 song worldwide of 1999, but Madonna's Music was the #1 song worldwide of 2000

Cher's streaming numbers are piss poor compared to Madonna's, the problem with Madonna is that she's been too consistently successful so a lot of her big hits get left behind and they tend to cancel each other out and people always fall back on 80s Madonna

I mean most people would be surprised if you told them that Hung Up was Madonna's biggest global hit

Whereas Cher only has about 6 songs that get airplay and decent streams

^Take it to another thread, HAGdonna fangurl.

Madonna is only relevant here to the degree that she's now as surgically mutilated and freakish as Jackson was in the 90s.

Popbitch claimed a certain coke-fuelled super producer used to beat MJ up in the studio. The music industry is the locus for a LOT of evil. A disturbing amount. There were always rumours/legends, dating from the dawn of rock and roll, about artists supposedly selling themselves to spiritual darkness to get successful. It is creepy to consider, given the lives and fates of so many of superstars.

R272 it's funny because as I'm typing this he Music song is playing on the radio

On YouTube Cher has about 370 million career views with 280 million from Believe alone, Cher averages about 300,000 Yt views a day

Madonna has nearly 5 BILLION career views on YouTube and has a number of videos with higher views than Believe including Hung Up, Madonna averages about 2 million YT views a day

On Spotify, Madonna has over 5 BILLION streams including 1 BILLION in 2022 alone WITHOUT new music, her back catalogue

Cher doesn't even have 1 BILLION total career streams on Spotify

Madonna's streaming numbers is incredibly impressive

The relevancy

^ Madonna does not care about you, and her success does not reflect positively on you or any other obsessed Madonna fan. It doesn't rub off. So get a new hobby and new sense of self esteem that's attached to your own achievements.

I couldn't have said it better, R275.

Now, back to MJ...

@r274 still nobody will remember any of these songs. Vogue was her last contribution to music let’s be real.

R277 if no one remembers them then why does she have so many songs post Vogue with sky high streaming numbers on YouTube or Spotify?

Please enlighten me wise one

And a majority of people who stream are under 30, so obviously she's connecting to a younger generation who are seeking out her back catalogue

She's generally the most streamed pre 1990 debuting female artist on all platforms

Even her recent lesser albums have decent streams Rebel Heart 250 million streams on Spotify alone and Madame X over 200 million on Spotify alone

@R278 idk because if you add up the population of gays and Brazil you get her view count.

Madonna is like that friend you did coke with for 8 years and who always also supplied it. They seemed like your best friend and you know every detail of their life then you get sober and never looked back.

R279 not true, she has impressive streams in evry country although Brazil is one of her bigger markets just like MJ

R280 maybe to you but the FACTS are different, both Frozen and Hung Up have higher streams than most of her pre Vogue hits

Why do you think Warner's wanted her to release a 50 #1 dance songs collection because of her strong streams and catalogue sales

R277 her excellent Ray of Light album from the late 90s is probably her biggest and most important contribution the music

Like 10 years after Vogue

R277 12 of her 20 most streamed YouTube videos are from 1990/Vogue onwards

So again your narrative has been destroyed

Yes her most viewed video is from the 80s (La Isla Bonita) but her 2nd (Hung Up) and 3rd (Bitch I'm Madonna) most viewed videos of her entire career are from 2005 and 2015 respectively

Madonna is definitely the 80s artist, who mosgof her most streamed songs is from her post 80s work, even Whitney Houston only has one huge post 80s streaming smash with I Will Always Love You

In fact Madonna is the only female artist to have at least one music video with over 100 million YouTube views in 4 different decades (80s,90,2000s, 2010s)

So irrelevant....

The dismissal of the Madonna fan posting on here is a little unfair given they’re pretty much stating facts.

Whitney does have Higher Love now too though R283.

I was never a fan of MJ ( i prefer The cure, Depeche Mode, The Smiths ) but to say that Michael Jackson is irrilevant culturally is a bit farfetched, so many groups and singers today are musically inspired by him, from Bruno Mars to BTS.

Also he is visually one of the most recognized musical icon in history ( because he looked like a freak but still...)

Thankfully it looks like discussion of that irrelevant dried up old cunt is now so unpopular here that her fanatics have to hijack other threads to get any discussion of her here now

Ioan Bogdan was able to imitate him so well because he wasn't a great singer

Ee hee!

Michael’s songwriting talent was undeniable, and is simply being disparaged here by people who obviously know diddly squat about music history. Not only were many of his own big hits crafted by him, but he also wrote hits for other artists (Rebbie Jackson’s “Centipede,” Diana Ross’s “Muscles,” etc.). One of my favorite tracks from the post Motown-era Jacksons is the often-sampled “This Place Hotel,” a song that Michael wrote when he was in his early 20s. Originally called “Heartbreak Hotel,” the title was changed due to legal issues stemming from the Elvis song of the same name.

Many artists cowrite songs. Songwriting is usually a collaborative process. Until recently, it wasn't uncommon for music stars to get a lot of credit for songs they barely wrote. Like changing one word or slightly changing the melody. The rise of lawsuits by songwriters in recent times and stricter copyright laws have made people more vigilant. That's why when you sample these days, you must list everyone involved from the original song.

Comparing Cher's success to Barbra's and Madonna's is silly. Cher was never in the same league as Madonna or even Barbra. Barbra is still the fifth biggest female artist of all time, only behind Madonna, Celine, Mariah and Whitney (in descending order of sales). The fact that she still had multiplatinum hits in the 90s is incredible. I cannot think of a single artist who had CONSISTENT success like that for four decades with new music. Madonna did it for three decades. Cher had sporadic hits each decade but that's not a great comparison with the other two ladies.

^This. Is. Not. A. Thread. About. Music. Diva's. Sales.

R291 but Streisand had just one top 10 hits in the 90s, her duet with Bryan Adams and her first since 1990

She did have #1 albums though

Madonna followed the same route in the 2010s, one top 10 hits, although tons of #1s on the dance charts and 2 further #1 albums and one #2 peaking qlbu

Streisand, Cher and Madonna are the only 4 wen I'm history to have at least one top 10 hot on the main Billboard Hot 100 with new material in 4 different decades

Cher had 60s,70s,80s and 90s

Streisand had 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s

Madonna had 80s, 90s, 2000s and 2010s

Madonna's three most streamed songs on Spotify are interesting and point out to her longevity, Material Girl is always #1 from the 80s and her #2 and #3 streamed songs flipflops between Hung Up (2000s) and Frozen (90s)

One decade represented in her top 3

Considering the songs mentioned in r289 Michael's songwriting skills are very deniable and helps prove the point that his music is ridiculous.

Centipede and Muscles are beyond forgotten antique songs now and even at 20, Michael couldn't come up with a song title that wasn't a complete rip off of an extremely well known song

R294, you don't like the lyric "Your butt is mine"? Such genius!

@r293 Cher has had a number one a billboard chart for 6 consecutive decades. Idk if Babs or Madge has achieved that.

R296 not on the main Billboard Hot 100 on any Billboard singles chart

On the main Hot 100, Cher with Sonny and solo, had a #1 in three different decades, 60, 70s and 90s

Madonna and Streisand did the same in three decades, Madonna in the 80s, 90s and 2000s, Streisand in the 60s, 70s and 80s, Janet Jackson too in the 80s, 90s and 2000s

Madonna can't have a number 1 on any Billboard chart for 6 decades because she didn't debut until the early 80s, but she already had #1s in 5 different decades on any Billboard chart

She also has an unheard of 50#1 s on the dance singles chart, more than any artist on any Billboard chart, period

In fact Madonna has more #1s on ALL Billboard charts combined (Hot 100, adult contemporary, dance singles, albums sales, music DVD sales etc) than ANY artist male or female in Billboard chart history

More than MJ, more than Elvis, more than The Beatles

I also always thought it was crazy too how Cher never had a #1 or even #2 peaking album on the albums charts

Vadge stan took over the thread and derailed the conversation. Surprisingly no Janbot is here.

@r297 Cher never had great albums. She also only has 1 Grammy which is surprising but also not. She's an anomaly. More of just an icon I guess.

@r295 Prince on that lyric.

Since Warner's resigned Madonna last year, they've been doing a great job getting her back catalogue out

Material Girl has a TikTok moment earlier this year when it even became the #1 most used TikTok song for a week

Whole Frozen, probably her best single, went viral and it's streams on all platforms exploded

There's tons of reaction videos for Frozen by teens and people not even born when the song came out on YouTube, they're kind of mesmerized by the song and video, a lot can't believe that the same Madonna who did Like a Virgin did Frozen as it feels like a completely different artist and sound

By looking at FACTS, her streaming numbers across all platforms, it's fair to say that Madonna's music lives on and is being appreciated by the next generation, more so than any other female artist who debuted pre 1990, she kills them in streams, and you know this FACT kills the Madonna haters on the DL....

Also I would love to take a time travel machine back to 1998 to see the DL reaction when Frozen and the Ray of Light album dropped and it was a massive hit commercially and critically and Madonna wasn't using sex at all with that album and videos and photoshoots, in fact she's overdressed and asexual in the Frozen video

It probably just KILLED the Madonna haters that they couldn't use that old adage, "She's only popular because she takes off her clothes", it just killed you guys

R301 Good for her but the thread is "Michael Jackson song his ridiculous music" not "Madonna and her ridiculous music"

*The thread is "Michael Jackson and his ridiculous music" not "Madonna and her ridiculous music"

Best selling artists of all time.

MJ should've stopped fucking with his face after the first nosejob. He was a very handsome man before he went too far.

No comment

"Let'sh go find shome pillsh!"

Janet is one of only three artists (and the only black artist) with a #1 album in the 80s/90s/2000s/2010s. She was the first artist to have a Hot 100 #1 in the 80s/90s/2000s, and she remains the only artist with 7 top 5 Hot 100 #1 hits from a single album.

The one on the left is better preserved

Janet was always a boss bitch

R308 yes but to be fair, Madonna never released more than 4 or 5 singles per album tops so she's invalid with that chart feat

Warner's wanted 7-8 singles from Like a Virgin, True Blue and Like a Prayer, but she jumped right into other music releases right away

I mean Vogue came out a month after the ,5th and final single from Like a Prayer so Warner's couldn't milk that album with more singles

R304 interesting list

Madonna is #5 and the #1 woman by far

Janet Jackson is all the way down at #74, even Pink sold more than her worldwide

No Cher in the top 100

[quote]Janet is one of only three artists (and the only black artist) with a #1 album in the 80s/90s/2000s/2010s.

Babs and Springsteen are the other two.

[quote]she’s invalid.

VERY. Wasn’t FlopDNA her last outing?

Best selling female artists of all time in Millions of Albums equivalent sold :

1. Madonna 246M 2. Celine 198M 3. Mariah 175M 4. Whitney 157M 5. Barbra 153M 6. Taylor Swift 121M 7. Britney Spears 111M 8. Rihanna 103M 9. Adele 102M 10. Beyoncé 90M 11. Enya 89M 12. Shania Twain 83M 13. Pink 79M 14. Janet 78M 15. Lady Gaga 76M 16. Sade 76M 17. Cher 74M 18. Shakira 70M 19. Ayumi Hamasaki 62M 20. Katy Perry 59M 21. Ariana Grande 59M 22. Alanis Morissette 58M 23. Christina Aguilera 58M 24. Alicia Keys 53M 25. Norah Jones 53M 26. Tracy Chapman 52M 27. Miley Cyrus 52M 28. Avril Lavigne 47M 29. Jennifer Lopez 47M 30. Kelly Clarkson 38M

I like Madonna. When she dies everyone will mourn an era gone.

And Janet will live to be 100 like her mom.

KING AND QUEEN OF POP

I didn't want to believe that he did all that all stuff but Latoya saw checks.

Latoya looks like MJ in that YouTube video.

Toy’s rendition of Wanna Be Startin’ Something.

I am a proud #ToySoldier. Call me when Michael or Janet have a banger like her 80s smash 'Hot Potato'. All hail LaToya Jackson, the Pope of Pop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Creepiest celebrity ever. His fanbase is a delusional cult.

Cher is iconic for reasons beyond her music. Most would struggle to name more than two of her songs, and you can all guess which ones those are.

R321 she should be lynched for this shit!

Cher, Madonna and Michael have the horrible plastic surgery in common though. Cher looks like the planet of the apes, Madonna like a pumped up sex doll and Michael looks like Madonna in frozen. Was he inspired?

Oh great, JanBot ruined yet another thread by posting bullshit just to keep the conversation on its favorite subject: Madonna. Just what it lives to do.

Well at least for a while it was amping up a worthy comparison (Cher). That was some progress until it fell back to laughably pretending Janet is in the same league as Madonna or even Michael.

Wow... They kept talking about Madonna... Can't believe it.

Well R102 and R109 what else was he going to write about lyrically? How hot 10 year old boys are?

As for his songwriting skills…as R290 points out many, many, many acts have ‘bought’ songs, paid off the writers and taken all or part credits. Back to Elvis as probably earlier. What instruments did Michael play to compose his songs? I’ve never seen him play guitar or keyboards. Maybe he could…I genuinely don’t know. But I find it very hard to believe that he wrote many of the songs he has sole credit for.

He was certainly a fucked up individual, to put it mildly.

Did he bleach his lower parts too + glans?

R301 Nobody in here said that madonna popularity is when she removes her clothes, quite the opposite, we are all begging her to keep her clothes on.

Her SEX era ( followed by that body of evidence soft porn movie)totally backfired her at the time.

Her best era as you said were when she kept her clothes and stopped trying to be this hypersexual nymph.

Janet is an Oscar nominee, something that Michael never was and Madonna will never be.

HAGdonna, taking notes…

Top female tours of the ‘90s, a tally…

Celebrities like Elizabeth Taylor and Cher would never admit their buddy MJ was a sexual predator. Both would have probably torn him limb from limb if he molested THEIR SONS !

R335 Maybe Cher would have approved?

R329 I think Michael could mainly play piano, but he definitely wasn't like Prince in the sense that the latter was a true "musician" and composer of music. Michael could probably compose on the piano and come up with melodies on paper and on tape, but a lot of his work was brought to life in the studio, working with his producers and whatnot. So in some ways his musicianship existed more in the studio than it did in playing instruments. I think you could argue the same for Madonna, although (apart from her early years) she relied on co-writers mostly.

r73 Exactly, that's why you should never try.

the meek shall inherit the earth, uncle ruckus.

r73

As a previous poster said, "Off the Wall" is a terrific album. And there is a reason "Thriller" sold 50 million copies. It's excellent. Even the filler was played on the radio. The decline started with "Bad," which was not BAD but wasn't as good as the earlier two albums, and continued through the rest of his career.. "Dangerous" had some good songs on it, but it wasn't classic Michael Jackson. People love to villainize him, but whether he knew it or not, he was a victim of the extremely homophobic, church-led black community. (Rumor has it that his mother told him it was OK to go after children because that really wasn't "sex." Make of that what you will.) Just like Whitney (RIP). And just like Tyler Perry, who is still alive but will NEVER come out, even though it is clear from outer space that he is a big homo. Black churches make families homophobic and the gay children in these families do not want to "shame" their families by coming out. So they never do, and in two out of the three examples given, their lives end tragically. Take notes, Tyler.

[quote]KING AND QUEEN OF POP

Sure, Jan(bot)!

Jackson's relevancy in mainstream pop culture was "over" by the time Dangerous came around, but, In the Closet is a bop. I really like Remember the Time too, and Black or White and Jam are guilty pleasures.

Massive JanBot lies at R334.

^Bullshit list. The creator boosted the numbers for inflation and obviously (and probably purposely) left off certain tours.

R343, you mean she DIDN'T have the highest grossing tour in the third week of March, 1990?!??!?

Janet = Marchioness of Meat Pies