Lucille was terrible to the cast and crew of Lucy Calls the President

I just watched Lucy Calls the President. I didn't realize Lillian Carter has a cameo at the end.

I recently saw a Password episode with 10 year old Desi Jr and Lucy Arnaz and Desi Jr was quite smart. It’s funny because they did another episode a year later & both kids had lost the awkward charm of the first episode they’d done because now they were show bizness pros. In just a few years, Desi would believe he’d fathered a baby with 23 year old Patty Duke,

I remember watching a old game show. I can’t remember which one it was. And she was on there with Richard Simmons. She was so mean to him. I actually felt bad for him.

She was just worried Vivian Vance would ask him out on a date, r3

r3 this?

(R5) Yeah, thanks.

You're welcome, r6. Watching now

Well, she was certainly in a mood ...

She had to know how truly horrible it was. That couldn’t have helped her mood. It’s just so bad. Really. Bad.

True, r9

Hopefully, she reserved most of her anger to the writers.

There could be a whole article on how shitty Lucy was on game shows at the end of her career. Cranky, uninformed on the rules, and a terrible game player.

I loved it.

Why did she agree to do them, r12?

Too bad Gary didn't talk her out of it.

[quote]Why did she agree to do them, [R12]

No idea, but her performances on Super Password or Password Plus or whatever it was had this angry "Don't RUSH me!" energy.

The standing ovation for her -- and her grande dame response -- on Body Language was hilarious.

Well, R15, it’s not as if she wasn’t worthy of a standing ovation or her grande dame attitude.

She was taping a Super Password the day Desi died and Carol Channing grips Lucy's face in her hands and says "Concentrate."

One of those game shows was Lucy and Ann Dusenberry vs. Betty White & Estelle Getty.

Lucy just seethes with resentment as White wins every round and you could see the subtext of The Golden Girls being such a superior hit to the ratings barrel bottom LWL.

OMG, it took four people ten minutes to not get the answer: oxygen.

The whole premise of the show annoyed me r19

I'm so appalled by Lucy's behavior I have risen from my crypt to join this conversation about an subject of great import!

r21 = the ghost of Bill Frawley, still sad that he died before production of Lucy Calls the President

Lucy was an old bitch.

When did Lucy give up smoking? Or did she smoke it out til the end?

Nicotine was Lucille's lifeblood!

She should have quit when she was ahead.

R24, she was still going through her ILL Phillip Morris stash.

It's a shame this crap fest is the last time Lucille and Viv appeared onscreen together

Followed by "Gary Calls 911"

R28 totally agree

[quote]Lucy looked at her with complete disgust and yelled, 'What difference does it make? You look like a cow in anything you wear!'

I don't believe it for a second. Viv and Lucy were close friends till the end. My Mother had a friend who lived across the street from Lucy and would see Viv coming and going all the time. And that must have been written by a Brit, Americans never referred to woman as cows, that 's a British thing.

Lucy actually took a dump in my dressing room.

That is beyond the pale.

[quote]When did Lucy give up smoking? Or did she smoke it out til the end?

She was chain-smoking backstage when she appeared on the Oscars in 1989.

She died a few months later.

You don't buzz a legend!

R34 As a Lucy fan, it was painful to watch her on game shows in the 1980s as she longer good at them and appeared to have problems concentrating on the game.

OP, do you have a link to the article?

Sad last days of Lucy.

Google turns up nothing for OP’s nonsense. Fake.

0/10

It's not fake.

Here is the book, and I can provide screen shots of the passage, r38. One moment.

She should have bowed-out after "Here's Lucy". Her strong point was manic, physical comedy- and that's not possible when you're over 60.

She's one of those people who can't retire because they have no hobbies, interests or plans. They drop dead at work.

For r38

It was more than just her mother dying, they were very close and her mother was always in the live studio audience going back to I Love Lucy. You can actually pick up her mother's distinctive laugh in many of the recordings. So not only had she lost her mother, this was going to be her first production without her number one cheerleader in the audience. She knew that no matter how many laughs she might get, she wasn't going to hear the laugh that she wanted to hear.

In the end, Lucy Calls The President was one of her better specials and should've been used as a format/pilot/series to age the Lucy character into something more contemporary.

Also for r38

She once dined at a crappy little restaurant on the UES owned by a horrible old queen who only hired horrible young queens. Lucy and some ass-kissers were finishing lunch, and when the check came, Lucy reached into her purse and was mortified when she realized her wallet wasn't there. She called her waiter over, whom the staff affectionately called Mary, and asked if she could pay with a check. Mary rolled his eyes and answered, "Do you have any ID?".

Everything came to a hushed standstill. The only sound you could hear was the owner snorting lines in the bathroom.

Ed McMahon's "acting" here makes his appearances on "Here's Lucy" seem like Brando.

R45 His only job on the special was to be the straight man and look good as a couple with Lucy, he succeeded.

As an aside ... the mentality of r38 irks me. I see it in my students a lot. You know, there is a whole WORLD of writing and research that doesn't show up via a Google search. You know ... things like books and articles that aren't yet digitized or openly accessible. At my institution, interlibrary loan is still booming for this reason.

Google is not the last word on human knowledge.

Lucy would have been great on The Golden Girls as the crotchety old Sophia, instead of Estelle Getty playing the part. The bitchiness would have come naturally to her. That could have been the capstone of her career.

However, she wouldn't hve been in charge, so it probably wouldn't have worked for her.

Too bad Vivian didn't live longer. She would have made a great Sophia. She had impeccable delivery.

I doubt Viv "ran away in tears." She was one of the few not afraid to stand up to Lucy and tell her off when necessary.

Miss Ball threw coffee in my face and said, "You call that hot?!".

r50 there's another story in which Viv was reduced to tears during a Lucy Show rehearsal r50. It was during the baseball episode. Lucy was supposed to toss Viv a bat, and she couldn't catch it or something. And Lucille yelled at her and she ran away crying.

Viv should have taken a shit on Lucy’s dressing room floor. Like Bea did with Betty.

I talked her out of it, r53.

Oh whatever. On Decades right now...Hollywood at Last! I'm watching Lucy make a fool of herself over Bill Holden at the Brown Derby. Looking forward to what's to come. Thank you Miss Ball for all the laughs.

r55 = the ghost of Eve Arden

Yes, Eve Arden, r56. Not to be mistaken with Shelley Winters or Judy Holliday.

[quote]And that must have been written by a Brit, Americans never referred to woman as cows, that 's a British thing.

Yes, we did and do.

[quote]When did Lucy give up smoking? Or did she smoke it out til the end?

I believe she smoked it out to the end. Unfiltered, two packs a day.

R58 we do but heifer is also popular

Viv's husband preferred "Fat whore!"

[quote] And that must have been written by a Brit, Americans never referred to woman as cows, that 's a British thing.

[quote]Yes, we did and do.

You're anonymous, so your post is absolutely meaningless to anyone besides yourself. Are you a Brit or an American?

" I'm watching Lucy make a fool of herself over Bill Holden at the Brown Derby. "

That was "Peak William Holden" I would have done the same if given the chance

I'm gonna have a piece of that!

[quote]That was "Peak William Holden" I would have done the same if given the chance

Me too

Lucky Lucy...

One more, just because...

r18:

Betty had so much more personality compared to Lucille

Great podcast. Better than the graphic. This season is about Lucy. The latest episode refers to LCTP.

r47 Yes, I have read so many anecdotes from so many books and these details are not on the Internet—and will not be—until someone puts them there.

[quote]I have read so many anecdotes from so many books and these details are not on the Internet—and will not be—until someone puts them there.

The Lord's work, truly!

I wonder why Lucy never guest starred on GG

On right now. Thank you again, Miss Ball...

Just because its in a book doesn't make it true, either. There are lots if books about celebrities that are full of bullshit. Publishers are in the business if selling books, not guardians of truth.

I wonder if Lucy's doctor (therapist?) suggested she do game shows to get out and about? Away from the booze, bitterness and cigarettes.She certainly didn't need the money.

"Away?" She drank and smoked on every set she was ever on, and never stopped being bitter in her later years.

I was gonna say ... she seems bitter af in those clips

Some drag queen should do a one-person show called LUCY AT PASSWORD, where she sits in her dressing room waiting to tape, smoking, calling people on the phone and bitching out the poor assistants who are sent in to update her.

That late-period face tape white powder Bozo wig look is Baby Jane iconic.

[quote]where she sits in her dressing room waiting to tape

When I read this, I assumed you meant "waiting to have her face taped for the wig" ...

There was a late in life Lucy show that Lucie Arnaz directed R79, though I find your backstage-at-Password concept to be a much more interesting setup.

r79 is brilliant

I recently read Vivian Vance's biography and I hadn't realized how ill she was during the filming of this. (Lucille still comes off as cuntish). This makes it even more difficult to watch Lucy Calls the President:

[quote]During the week of rehearsals, Vivian again complained of a persistent pain in her leg and hip. Lucy finally convinced Vivian to go see her doctor and take some tests. The lab notified her that it would take them a few days before the results came in. [As it turned out, her cancer had metastasized to her bones.]

[quote]On the night of filming Lucy Calls the President, there were several delays. Vivian didn't feel up to par and when the cast did not break for dinner, she voiced her anger. Paige Mathews Peterson, along with John Dodds, attended the taping that night to help Vivian. "We were sitting in the audience and Viv's mouth started quivering. John said, 'God, she looks really tired, she looks like she's not doing well.' We couldn't figure out whether she had a twitch or what was going on. When they came to a break, Lucy screamed, 'Goddamn it Viv, stop doing that face!' And Viv walked over to us and we suddenly realized that she had Bell's palsy and that her face was falling apart. John said, 'Oh God, I'm taking you to a hospital.' Viv said, 'I'm going to finish the show.' And that woman finished the show and by the end of it her face was completely paralyzed. We quickly packed her things and left for Belvedere. Lucy never called her, never checked in on her, never focused in on her. It was stunning.

R42- You do know that Lucille Ball's mother would refer to Desi Arnaz as the SPIC.

R75 It was actually in a very good book. Well researched, well written. Desilu: The Story of Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz.

I find it hard to imagine Lucy saying that to Viv. Maybe she meant it was a lighthearted joke?

In any case, that is only a few lines in the book. I highly recommend it. Fascinating stories about all the series, and Desi's series Mothers In Law, as well. The Joan Crawford and Tallulah Bankhead stories are great.

In one of the final scenes of Lucy Calls the President, Viv and Lucy get into a shooting match with icing. Beforehand, they're squaring off, and Lucy says, "Well?" to which Viv replies "Smile when you say that!" A bittersweet allusion to "Home Movies" from the "I Love Lucy" days.

Yes, MARY!!!!!!!!

Watching this makes me realize how truly awful late 1970s aesthetics were.

Lucy really didn't age well. Viv looks better in this than Lucille does.

And remember, Desi Jr. first became a father at 15.

Lucy doing a sitcom on videotape just doesn't seem right. All her shows were always done on film.

We take full credit r88

Mary Wickes aged pretty well too

I was only a year older than the cunt and she cast me as her Great Aunt!

Viv’s pussy stunk to high heaven!

Mary Wickes belongs in the "Women who are broads" thread.

Lucille is almost unbearable in later years.

I think the only time I laughed during Lucy Calls the President is when Gale Gordon states, "Just don't ask for whom the bell tolls." I never found him funny, so that he elicited a laugh tells me everything I need to know about this crap fest.

It looks cheap on videotape, which also makes Lucy look older than film. But it's nice to see Lucy and Viv clown one last time. Added bonuses are Mary Wickes, Mary Jane Croft and Gale Gordon. Too bad that could not have worked in a part for Desi. Then the show would have been really special.

I kind of wish someone had talked Viv out of this (insert Gary joke).

Hell, if I were Viv, I would have walked out the night of filming.

Marc Daniels directed this, interestingly.

R45 "Mr. McAllester. Frommm... the bank."

Umm...Lucy's vitriol on the set was not confined to this particular episode. In fact, it was the rule and not the exception.

r101 = the ghost of Vivian Vance

Why was she so goddamned miserable? She had everything. Even her children loved her! If they hated her, there would’ve been “Lucy Dearest” books. That’s quite an accomplishment for one so famous.

Yes, she was sad and angry that her later career wasn’t as successful. All of us have to deal with that. Why was she the exception? Yes, Desi had affairs and drank. Other women, mere mortals, had suffered through this. She was wealthy enough to divorce Desi, and not suffer a devastating financial loss.

She had no right to be abusive because of this. Just because she was “Lucy”, that didn’t justify her nasty behavior.

Look for the new special “Lucy Calls Trump!” coming to CBS prime time this fall.

Mary Wickes, in addition to Viv, is another person who wouldn't have taken any crap from Lucy. Mary had been around the block a few times working with so many famous people in so many films over the years and had probably seen it all. In some ways, Wickes is just as remembered and loved as Lucy. She never had to worry about being out of work.

The fact is, Lucy Ball was not a very nice woman. Yes, there are all sorts or reasons, her hard scrabble childhood, her polio or whatever it was, early rejection as a dancer and actress, bad marriage, yadda yadda yadda, but these are just explanations and not excuses. The fact is Lucy was quite simply a nasty and mean spirited woman.

[quote] Mary Wickes, in addition to Viv, is another person who wouldn't have taken any crap from Lucy.

Mary Wickes and Kay Ballard were close friends of Lucy. Ballard took no crap either. I think to be a close friend to Lucy, you had to be able to stand up to her. It was probably a twisted way of earning Lucy's respect.

Yes, r106. Not all of us with bad childhoods and bad marriages turned into raging cunts.

[quote]Mary Wickes and Kay Ballard were close friends of Lucy.

I thought Mary and Lucille were lovers? Well, as per DL, anyway.

No, Mary and Kaye were.

I've read a few books by friends of hers.

Lucy was fiercely loyal to her friends. She valued them. But, if you didn't go along with everything Lucy wanted to do, or agree with most everything she said, you wouldn't be in her friend circle for long.

She wasn't funny herself in the least. But she LOVED friends who could make her laugh, and she loved to laugh.

She really was no better or worse than lots of people you know. Except, her fame allowed her to call more shots.

Basically, if you were willing to sit and play backgammon for hours, and you could make her laugh, you were in with Lucy.

R42 So did Lucy.. Only Mrs. Ball thought SPIC stood for “Son-in-law Pays In Cash.” Lucy knew what it meant. Come to think of it, what DOES it mean?

Lucy took a dump in my dressing room, and I wasn't even working on that show!

(Not to mention, I was one of the few people in Hollywood who made the effort to get along with that old cunt.)

^ Seriously, this was like a constipated trucker driver's dump!

Yes, it must have been horrendous for Lucy to lose her mother when Lucy was at the tender age 75.

Cicero was a total bitch to Titus Pomponius once.

I wonder what her personality was like in her teens and twenties.

The Password appearance is hilarious.

When discussing what charity they are playing for, Lucy simply says, "...child abuse." And you're not really sure if she is pro or anti.

And they called ME a bitch r118!

Two other thoughts from Viv's bio:

One day near the end of Viv's life, she arrived home from chemo, sat on the couch, and began to read the paper. All of a sudden, she started to cry and said, "It's so painful, I can't stand it." Her friend asked what was the matter. Viv replied, "Lucie is making her Broadway debut tonight, and it just kills me I can't be there in person." She really loved Lucie, and had, of course, encouraged her to pursue theater rather than television. It was a definite MARY!!!!!!! moment.

Viv's family seemed a little dysfunctional. One of her sisters said something like, "I can't say a single bad thing about Phil Ober," and another claimed that, despite everything, Viv and Phil could have worked out their problems ... except Viv found out he was sleeping with one of her best friends. Seriously? He treated your sister like shit for many years. I know that it was a different time, but I would think they would be a little concerned he was beating her up regularly ... or at least consider the marriage irredeemable.

R120 I read somewhere that Phil Ober used to hit her. Viv adored Lucie Arnez. On her advice Lucie did tons of regional theater, even summer stock, and Viv flew all over creation to see her in whatever show she was in. Viv loved Lucie, and Lucie loved her back.

Viv had wanted to be a mother, but wasn't, and actually considered it one of the misfortunes of her life. It's a shame; she seems like she'd have been a cooler mother than Lucille.

[quote]I read somewhere that Phil Ober used to hit her.

Yes, and Lucille hated him for it r121

I still can't get over Lucille yelling at post-stroke, visibly unwell Viv to "Stop making that face!" it really sours their last appearance together for me.

For those interested, the whole special is available on Amazon Prime

She became a nasty old cunt and was never funny again after "I Love Lucy".

Was she nice to Bob Hope?

I hope so r127

R87- Late 1970’s aesthetics were far better than the 1980’s- which were horrendous.

I've always thought late 1970s aesthetics lingered until about 1983

R44- I must correct you- Lucy reached into her POCKETBOOK.

R69- Betty White was FAKE sweetness. In real life she was a MEAN dyke.

r132 = Bea Arthur

Vivian had flatulence issues. She was constantly farting, which annoyed Lucy. Lucy used to yell at her to stop farting so much.

I think Lucy just loved games of any kind. Going on game shows was a way of indulging that need, plus it kept her in the public eye.

R134 = stealth scat post

I thought Frawley was the one with the flatulence problem

That Mr. Mertz used to wake all the babies in the building on the nights when Mrs. Mertz served him cabbage.

And if you've ever been in their apartment, you've smelled it - the cabbage, I mean.

I would not be surprised that the real reason Ethel seemed resentful towards Fred was because of that time he gave Ricky a blow job to completion.

A young Desi jr...along with a very good looking Dino Martin jr in a group they had in the 60s

r139 that was the second-best Mertz BJ that Ricky ever received.

I'm reposting the clip from R2. Is it me? or does young Lucie Arnaz look more like the daughter of Alice "Gladys Kravitz" Pierce or her own mom? She could have played Gladys's daughter on Bewitched.

Lucille made an CBS special

By then she was really quite dreadful:

Smeared Vase on the lens

And yelled at her friends

And Vivian proved she was loyal

[quote]I think Lucy just loved games of any kind. Going on game shows was a way of indulging that need, plus it kept her in the public eye.

Lucy didn't have much to do in her later years. She basically just sat around her house on Roxbury Drive and played backgammon with whoever happened to be around. Gary was out playing golf all day. The game shows were something to do and get her out of the house for awhile.

Lucy was obsessed with Backgammon in her later years. If you visited Lucy at her house, you had to play it with her whether you liked it or not. You would sit there for HOURS playing Backgammon with Lucy while she sat across from you and blew smoke in your face.

This was Lucy's living room. It's exactly what you would expect an old lady's living room in the 1980s to have looked like.

^jaysus!!!!

My husband could have given her interior design tips r146

Lucy LOVED the backgammon! I remember reading in one of her biographies she told Carole Cook, 'I'm a bitch at the bacgammon board, a bore in the bedroom and a bear on the toilet'.

That probably wasn’t her living room, because I’ve read in more than one place that she had one of those never-used living rooms, except maybe for interviews or photo shoots. We had a living room like that when I was growing up, except for the part about interviews and photo shoots.

Well it was a room in her house r150

lucy still had a dial phone in 1985???

Lucy never updated anything in her house, it was the same as the 1950s. All the appliances, furniture etc. This has been mentioned in several sources.

[quote]Lucy never updated anything in her house, it was the same as the 1950s.

She never updated her comic style, either

Was this supposed to be some kind of pilot?

Was Lucille flirting with the idea of getting another sitcom in the late 1970s?

When we were next door neighbors in Beverly Hills she was always a bitch to me. She adored my husband, but treated me like dirt. I used to sneak over and piss in her swimming pool.

[quote]Viv's family seemed a little dysfunctional. One of her sisters said something like, "I can't say a single bad thing about Phil Ober," and another claimed that, despite everything, Viv and Phil could have worked out their problems ... except Viv found out he was sleeping with one of her best friends. Seriously? He treated your sister like shit for many years. I know that it was a different time, but I would think they would be a little concerned he was beating her up regularly ... or at least consider the marriage irredeemable.

I have a feeling Vivian gave her sisters, whom she was very close to, explicit instructions about what not to discuss with people after after her death. I think that list included certain details of her marriages and of her nervous bearkdown.

Mary Livingstone, I hated you too and used to pee in your begonias

Viv had the terrible farting issues.

No, Lucy didn't call Viv a cow.

You're all gullible if you believe everything you read.

I've never revealed this before, but Lucy stole my gown after a fashion show at the Don Loper salon. It was a beautiful dress called "Sonata". Don made just for me in a new color he called "pink mink" The dress had chantilly lace and it was re-embroidered with sequins. Lucy denied stealing it, of course, but Shelia MacRae told me she saw her take it.

Yeah, well, your husband fucked you bowlegged so the dress looked better on me.

I'm in her hometown this weekend and visited the Lucy museum. I have today pretty much everyone here looks like they're on meth. It's such a trashy place. Even the kids I've seen are mouth breathing fat headed half wits.

R163 yeah, that's the whole region of Jamestown/Erie/Buffalo

But I was born in West Jamestown!

[quote]No, Lucy didn't call Viv a cow. You're all gullible if you believe everything you read.

And you're naive if you believe it sat outside Lucille's capacity.

Also, see r83.

I don't doubt for a second that Lucy said the cow remark to Viv. I also don't doubt that Lucy loved Viv, and Viv loved Lucy.

Vivian may have been Lucille's best friend. Lucille was not Vivian's best friend. Sure, she loved her, but Vivian was very close with her sisters, especially the one born immediately after her.

Vivian had craved stardom just as much as Lucille. Deep down, I'm not sure she ever really got over her professional resentment of living in Lucille's shadow. Earlier in her career, she had wanted to be a serious dramatic actress and had had the opportunity to study at RADA, which she passed up on. After I Love Lucy became a hit, she realized it was too late. She wanted out after the first couple of seasons, in part because the show took a toll on her mental health, but later claimed her husband refused to let her quit. Eventually, she arrived at the painful conclusion that no matter what else she did in her career, she would always be remembered as Lucille Ball's sidekick.

And let's face it. Vivian was far more likeable than Lucille. She had many friends, in addition to her sisters, and took those friendships very seriously. Interpersonally, as well as professionally, Lucille needed Viv. Viv never depended on Lucille in the same way.

One of Viv's close friends was actress Eileen Heckart, who was a neighbor when Viv lived in Connecticut.

Heckart's son Luke Yankee writes about the disastrous dinner night that Lucy and Gary spent at Viv's house with Eileen and her husband. Lucy got drunk and was obnoxious to everyone, especially the poor husbands present, including her own. Yankee's book is called "Just Outside the Spotlight: Growing Up with Eileen Heckart" and is worth of read.

Lucille turned to Eileen and said "Who the fuck knows who Eileen Heckart is? I could make you a household name!" Then later she said something like "Husbands are expendable." Everyone was mortified. Vivian called Eileen the next day to apologize.

Luke really liked Vivian. He said she was warm, caring, and sincere; like Ethel Mertz, without the cynicism.

Lucille seems like she was a bit ... damaged.

R166 The fact that it was published in a book does not make it true. 👀

r172 = Lucie Arnaz

Lucie hasn't had much good to say about her mother through the years.

Unless there's money involved.

I would happily spend hours playing backgammon with Lucy as long as I could pump her for stories. Imagine all the good dirt she knew from her RKO/MGM alone, never mind her 40 years of superstardom afterwards.

[quote] Lucie hasn't had much good to say about her mother through the years.

I think Lucie seems her mother the most clearly of anyone - recognizes who she was and loves her, but also knows she was not perfect.

Most of us are unable to see past the persona we saw on TV.

[quote] Most of us are unable to see past the persona we saw on TV.

I don't know what thread you're reading, but I would say just the opposite just based on the title alone.

[quote]Most of us are unable to see past the persona we saw on TV.

The lukewarm coffee ripped the scales from my eyes.

It's funny- a few of my friends on social media didn't like the way Lucy was portrayed in the recent Sorkin movie. Put aside the quality of the film itself. "They did they make her so awful and mean?" I told them "if anything, they soft peddled her. Lucy was demanding and difficult. And she wanted everything to be prefect- everything to work. Lucie Arnaz said that Nicole Kidman crawled into her mother's skin."

It surprises me how many people still assume Lucy must've been like Lucy Ricardo.

Lucy was a hard-boiled, bitter hag. Just like all of the other women who were her contemporaries in Hollywood - Davis, Crawford, Stanwyck, Dietrich etc. We can't really even imagine the shit they all had to go through as tough, intelligent independent women in a time and place where that was not looked upon favorably. They all ended up quite damaged.

If Lucie was named after Lucy.

Then why was Desi Jr named Desi after Desi and simply not Dezzie?

If Lucy would've had bore a son for Morton, would she have named him Garie?

He would have talked her out of it r183

Frankly, I think Desi did a number on Lucy. His mistreatment of her I'm sure is at least part of the cause of her being bitter, and closed off.

Desi was fine, r185.

Lucille was way too hard on him.

"Lucy was terrible..."

Yes, yes she was.

Vivian gave a few interviews around the time Lucille had Desi Jr. She stated she had plans to appear in some films while ILL was on hiatus. However, she never did. I wonder what happened.

Viv got fired out of town in Woody Allen's Don't Drink the Water. She was not a good fit.

Sanpaku eyes r189!!

Yeah, Lucy was a real dragon lady - hence her most appropriate skit in the attached clip. So, with all her ball swinging during her later years, how many times a week did she have her upper lip waxed?

One thing I'll say about Lucille, r191 : her dick was even bigger than mine.

r189 Viv was replaced by Kay Medford. It was Woody Allen's first hit on Broadway.

What I find such a waste with Lucille is that she had all those years where all she was doing was retreads of what she had done before (the increasingly bad Lucy Show and then the awful Here's Lucy) where she could have been doing or trying something else (other than musicals). On one of the Lucy Show DVD sets, there's a bonus feature for a pilot where she would have played a mature woman--not a variation on the Lucy character--who is running a Hollywood studio. Each episode would be framed by that conceit and then there would be an episode within the episode that would be a film she is deciding to greenlight. In the pilot, the "film" is a comedy-drama about a couple divorcing, played by Ball and Bob Hope. This would have replaced The Lucy Show after its third season, which I believe is when Vivian Vance left for good. But Lucy always had to be Lucy and so the concept went no further and The Lucy Show continued to torture us with the increasingly retarded Lucy Carmichael and the unfunny shouting of Gate Gordon. Even her perfectionism fell away; in her post-ILL series, watch her face. She is almost always reading cue cards and her reactions and timing, in turn, fuck up the other actors' performances, too. Why she didn't try something else is beyond me. She had all the resources to do whatever she needed and she beat the genius of Lucy Ricardo to a tiring death. (And that last series never should have happened. That's one thing Gary Morton needed to talk her out of.)

Vance was insufficient.

Life With Lucy was painful to watch. Lucy looked like she was embalmed.

It's hard to believe Lucy was 77 when she died. That was an OLD AF 77! Meryl Streep, Jessica Lange, Susan Sarandon and Diane Keaton, for example, are now just a few years younger than 77 and they look good and healthy. Lucy looked ancient and unwell.

People looked so much older then, r197.

Booze and cigarettes didn't help either.

Yes Lucy liked her booze and of course smoked like a chimney. Unfiltered, two packs a day at least.

It also didn't help that she insisted on the fake red hair forever. Those wigs on her aging face only emphasized the years.

As for her expanding her horizons, check out Stone Pillow to see how well. that worked.

I believe Lucy smoked right to the end, she never quit.

And yet I'm the one who died of cancer r201!

I wonder what Lucille was like in her 20s.

Vivian also smoked

But not like a chimney r204

I only loved smoking poles

This is a nice program from one of Vivian's visits to a state mental hospital in the early 1960s. I know she's a DL icon and all, but it seems like she was a genuinely good person too.

You can see her at 20 something in bit parts in RKO films of the 30s. She's pretty and funny. A charming young woman. Life really did a job on her. She went through hell for her success and it was like it wasn't worth it for how miserable she was in her later years.

She went on a date with the very handsome David Manners back then. And she said he was a perfect gentleman. I don't doubt it.

A young Vivian Vance.

Yeah

Yeah about David Manners

A face for the stage r209!

R163 I lived in Jamestown for four years. It sounds like you got the grand tour.

I always wondered why Bill and Viv never smoked on the show. (Well, they did a couple times, but only when the script called for it.)

Did producers think that their smoking would portray cigarettes in a less-favorable light?

[quote]And Vivian proved she was loyal

Vivian needed a job, Vivian was not suited for many acting jobs, Vivian was depended on Lucy for a job.

Vivian did NOT need to do Lucy Calls the President r215

And she appeared in plenty of stage productions before and after I Love Lucy.

R216, Stage = $, Television = $$$$

Vivian had plenty of money in the late 1970s, r217. Again, she did not need to appear in this travesty

Source, R218?

Viv did Maxwell House commercials for a few years. I bet she was well paid for those. Though, they never took off like Maggie Hamilton as Cora.

“I have sufficient “ (Housewarming) is on Decades today at 1pm EST

One of my faves, r221!

I also love when Lucy tells Betty, "You know, half of these eggs belong to Ethel," and Ethel replies, "Yes, the shells." Viv had such a great deadpan delivery.

R214 Smoking was cool back then and Ethel and Fred weren't cool. But the Ricardos were cool and sophisticated like smoking was. Now when you watch the show, Lucy and Ricky look like dopes smoking and Fred and Ethel look like the smart ones.

Philip Morris cigarettes were the sponsors, so Lucy and Ricky were encouraged to smoke on the show to promote the brand. And of course they also did advertisements. It is just insane to think that a cigarette brand sponsored a hit show and the stars of the show encouraged people to smoke. Could you imagine the Friends cast shilling for Marlboro Lights and doing ads? What a totally different time.

I used to smoke and I remember Philip Morris cigarettes (unfiltered), they were strong as hell. They were taken off the market many years ago.

I hope Little Ricky was just smoking candy cigarettes, not Philip Morrises.

r225 looks like a novelty item ...

(Note the barcode and "please recycle" on the packaging)

For most adults - then and now - smoking was an ADDICTION. Only teenagers smoked to be cool.

Of course smoking was cool r227

My grandfather smoked unfiltered Philip Morris cigs. I can still remember the smell.

Philip Morris was also Bette Davis's favorite brand. You can see the pack next to her in this photo where she's rehearsing Baby Jane with Joan.

Did Lucille actually smoke Chesterfields?

Viv might have been a smoker, but I don't think she smoked all that much. There are lots of candid shots of her without a cigarette.

Lucille, on the other hand, was smoking in nearly every picture.

And Bill with two shots ...

Lucy smoked like a chimney

Vance said one Philip Morris a day was sufficient.

Indeed r234

Could Viv have found a dowdier dress to accept her Emmy. at r232? Or were her hostess pants at the cleaners?

"Lucy smoked like a chimney."

Back in the day who the hell didn't smoke their lips off?

I didn't want her slutting it up on live television r237

You could inhale enough second hand smoke in those days to be a pack a day smoker.

As a former smoker, I'll admit ... at times, I really miss smoking.

r240 I had a great aunt who died of lung cancer and who never smoked a cigarette in her life. However, she worked at a bank and was surrounded by smokers every day

Gaaarry! I need a light, get over here goddammit!

Gary wasn't even marginally attractive

R225 R226 Those pictured are a retro novelty item, but when I was a young kind in the 1970s, candy cigarettes were still common. We had them at school!

[R244] Lucie Arnaz on the TCM podcast speculates that he was a great lay who always deferred to her mother. Probably just what Lucille wanted.

I bet Phil was seething in r232. That probably turned into an unpleasant evening

Gary dickmatized Lucy?

Lucille knew her way around a dick.

I don't believe Lucy ever fucked Gary

Gary was Jewish. In other words horny and well hung.

Lucy - Gary Morton = ARRANGEMENT

I've told this story many times on DL but it's my bond to Lucy. Shortly before she died, Lucy's dressmaker retired and my friend got a recommendation and Lucy employed her to be her new dressmaker. Friend knew I was a fan and said I could conveniently be at her house when Lucy came for an appointment. Lucy was getting a dress made because she was going to be making an appearance at Jamestown, which would have been the first time she'd been there in over 30 years. I was a little nervous but I felt I had an in by telling her I went to school with Michael Martin, the son of her writer, Marilyn Pugh Martin. Lucy came in like Cruella DeVille, a ton of smoke, deep voice and very, very thin. To my surprise, she was incredibly gracious when I said I was a fan and I guessed she experienced people showing up to see her at any kind of appointment and didn't fight it. During a break in the fitting, I showed Lucy the newest copy of the Hollywood Kids magazine. On Page 2, they had a lot of gossip including the famous "Guess Who, Don't Sue", which had blind items. Lucty was reading it and started roaring with laughter. She asked me who this was and read the BI to me. It was a story about a girl who was complaining about what a lousy lay this TV star was and he was so cheap that he wouldn't even get her a ride home so she had to catch a bus with his thimble of cum dripping down her leg. Lucy read the entire piece to me and I still laugh thinking about it. I told her I thought it was Bruce Willis and Lucy said something like she heard he was crazy. After the fitting was over, Lucy asked me if I knew how to play backgammon. I said no. She said she was going to teach me and then she gave me her number with her very nice handwriting saying "Lucy". Two days after, Lucy went to the hospital for heart problems and never came out so I never got to play backgammon with her, and I understand she was an expert cheat at the game. My impressions from my one encounter: Lucy was a cranky old broad who had heard and seen everything ten times over but in the end, still enjoyed having a good time.

I wanted to add that Lucy had left things like her body form at my friend's house. One of Lucy's employees came to pick it up after she died and we spoke briefly. He said he was with Lucy since I Love Lucy and he started to cry.

Great story r253

r252 = Mary Wickes

I looked STUNNING r237

R253 what a great story. Sad that Lucy didn't make it back to Jamestown. Thank you for sharing. Your story bears out my comment from before. She was loyal, not funny, but LOVED to laugh, and enjoyed her games.

^granted. But she was still a crab.

Lucy would have spent her time ALL OVER SOCIAL MEDIA if there was such a thing in the 1980s.

r260 I'm so glad that many figures from classic Hollywood died before social media really took off

I feel social media has killed the mystique of celebrity

^^It definitely has

Bette Davis would've been a riot on Twitter

She'd be up all night playing online backgammon.

[quote]Lucille was terrible to the cast and crew of Lucy Calls the President

Lu-CILLE!!!!!

Gale Gordon warrants his own circle in Dante's Inferno

Yes, Lucy bitching all over Datalounge would destroy her MYSTIQUE!

I enjoyed both of the memoirs about her last years written by gay guys: Lucy in the Afternoon by Jim Brochu and I Loved Lucy by Lee Tannen.

Got the both from my library and lapped them up.

Lucy was definitely a backgammon-obsessed crab at the end, but they both loved her without reservation.

Both of those books are good. Lucy in her last years stayed at home and played backgammon and smoked, that was pretty much it. She worked maybe once a year, if that, and the idleness drove her crazy.

Lucy was 66 when she did this show and the weird highlight is when they constantly make her recite who is going to be coming to the event. Even with cue cards, it was impressive to hear her go through the guest list.

I seem to recall in the Lee Tannen book, she came to him at some point in the mid 80s with tears in her eyes. She expressed her concern about him getting AIDS, even though they rarely talked about his lifestyle choice. Not sure she even said AIDS, she said something like "this awful thing going around- you're being careful, aren't you?"

I find that very moving. The best a person of her generation could do, and I'm sure it wasn't easy for her. Crab? Yes. But also loyal and caring.

But poor Lee once blew up at her and a friend of hers while he was driving a car. That time she cried for a different reason. Lee got ghosted. She ICED him out for over a year. Then, she invited his boyfriend over to her house without him. Then he was invited to a dinner where she was at. Finally, she called him and said "Where they hell ya been? Get your ass over here for backgammon!" Late in the evening, he started to apologize but Lucy interrupted him. "Never ever bring that up again. It's over."

[quote] Lucy was a hard-boiled, bitter hag. Just like all of the other women who were her contemporaries in Hollywood - Davis, Crawford, Stanwyck, Dietrich etc

That's just silly. I remained delightful and sweet throughout my career. I just pissed myself a lot.

I'm going to learn to love the bitch.

r271 as soon as Vivian died, John Dodds hooked up with a young San Fransisco artist, Barry Clinton. I don't know how serious they were, but Clinton died of AIDS in 1982. I wonder if Lucille knew any of that.

R194 , The Golden Girls debuted the season before Life With Lucy. An interviewer asked Lucy if she considered playing a character along the lines of Golden Girls. Lucy was indignant. She said the Golden Girls was not suitable for television and there was no way she'd ever do "bathroom humor" on a network TV show.

[quote]She said the Golden Girls was not suitable for television

MARY!!!!!!!

[quote]there was no way she'd ever do "bathroom humor" on a network TV show.

By the time Here's Lucy's aired, it was increasingly clear she would never do "humor" on a network TV show either.

r220 sanpaku eyes!

On the Joan Rivers Show, she spoke highly of Golden Girls. I know she likely didn't think SHE should do that humor, but I think she was a fan of the show.

[quote]On the Joan Rivers Show, she spoke highly of Golden Girls.

How many highballs in was she?

A treat for those who enjoy a raspy Lucille Ball - a YouTube video of Billy West imitating Lucy. It's a hoot!

This would be funny. If it were funny.

That Billy West routine is hilarious.

From the Lee Tannen book:

Lucy (turning down the volume on the car radio): I HATE all female singers!

Lee Tannen: Lucy what do you mean? You LOVE Barbra Streisand, and what about Garland and Lena Horne?

Lucy: Those are ACTRESSES who sing! Jeez, don't you know anything???

Lucy might have been a bitch that day but Vivian threw a zinger or two at her during their years together. In a biography I read many years ago about Lucille there was a day on the I Love Lucy set when she was being a grade A bitch. Vivian was not on her cue at the very second Lucy wanted her there. When she walked out onto the set Lucy said "YOU'RE LATE!". Vivian responded "I would tell you to go fuck yourself, bur Desi already did".

R285 One thing I noticed while listening to Lucy’s interview with Vivian from the "Let’s Talk To Lucy” radio show is their passive-aggressive behavior. Viv alternated between “Lucille” and “Miss Ball” when referring to Lucy. Viv spent a fair amount of time talking about the art collection in her home in Connecticut. She mentioned several contemporary artists whose work(s) she owned that Lucy knew nothing about. I got the sense that Viv was telling Lucy to “get with it.” They went back and forth between telling each other how dear they were to each other and telling the other one what they should be doing.

By 1965, Viv had sufficient r286

I know that this is hard for Dataloungers to accept as they watch their beloved black and white images of Lucille Ricardo and Ethel Mertz flash across their television screens and think back to happy bygone days of Mother's Jello molds and ardently repeat their catechism of belief that Lucy and Viv were really the sweet gals they portrayed on television. But, Lucille Ball and Vivian Vance were in actuality two living and breathing actresses who only played their characters on TV. In real life, they were two Hollywood broads who had been in the business many moons , were real women with faults. married to difficult men and could be even be cunts when they were not in the mood to play nice

R288 is the ghost of Bill Frawley

I was always surprised Lucy did that special Three’s Company episode, as that sort of comedy didn’t seem like her thing. She always seemed so conservative as to what constituted comedy; though she was always quite complimentary of John Ritter’s physical humor.

So bad, so sick

Lucille Ball was nothing like Lucy Ricardo. She was a bitter, hard-boiled cynic with little sense of humor. You have to remember what women had to go through in Hollywood in Lucy's era, it was a nightmare. All of those Classic Hollywood broads had tons of damage, most of them were hard drinkers and heavy smokers. Davis, Crawford, Stanwyck and many others. It was an impossible time to be an intelligent, independent woman in that business.

During the filming of "Mame", Lucy and Bea Arthur were discussing their respective CBS TV shows which were both on at the time. Bea related how the weekly process for "Maude" programs involved script reading, rehearsal, more rehearsal, etc. Lucy countered that they "just took the script and filmed it" or something like that. You know Bea wanted to say, "Yes, and it shows" or something like that since "Here's Lucy" was the same crap as "The Lucy Show" except adding her loudmouthed daughter who always shouted her lines.

Lucille and Bea were very much oil and water. She didn't want to do "Mame" without Angela, but her real "Bosom Buddy"didn't stand in her way and she was married to Gene Saks. Bea and Lucille were both professional and I think their relationship was the least of the film's issues.

When asked about Mame in one of her final interviews, Bea said, “It was a TOTAL HORROR”

R294, Angela was pretty arbitrary about who she chose to be upset with. She was furious with Gene Saks for not lobbying for her, which is absurd since she would never have gotten the role under any circumstances.

r288 according to Doris Singleton, Lucille usually had a cabal of friends with her at the studio during I Love Lucy days (of which Doris wasn't a part). She said Vivian, on the other hand, was kind of asocial and spent most of her time in her dressing room.

I think Vivian always saw their friendship as professional, to a greater or lesser degree.

In other words, nobody here really knows a single thing about their friendship.

r298 you must be new here!

Been here for years. Just know how to stop beating the horse once it falls over.

r300 DLers will cudgel that horse through all nine spheres of Dante's paradise.

[quote]I was always surprised Lucy did that special Three’s Company episode, as that sort of comedy didn’t seem like her thing.

I agree, R290. I presume Lucille never saw an episode of There's Company and just read what was written for her.

Well, she loved Ritter, so she must have watched the show, but her love of it doesn't make her later condemnation of The Golden Girls make sense. Three's Company was way smuttier than GG

It's hard to believe today, but Three's Company was pretty controversial during its original run. It's so tame by today's standards but back then it was considered a smutty raunchfest. A lot of conservative types hated it and railed against it.

Three's Company was family smut.

R304, Three's Company was never "controversial" outside the Bible Belt. It was just stupid, mindless fun for some people (not me), and pretended to be modern and sexy. Lucy may have loved John Ritter, but I guarantee you she never got through an episode of Three's Company. In fact, the show would have made her go on a rant about tasteless TV.

r305 = Lucille

I would say that I've seen enough of Lucy and Viv interacting on talk shoes, and when Viv surprised Lucy on Password, that they were warm friends. Could Lucy be a pain in the ass? Sure. Was Viv pretty distant, and upset with Lucy over various conditions on The Lucy Show? Yes.

But, friends often have these kinds of things between them. They for sure cared about each other, and Lucy was devastated when Viv died.

Sorkin should have made that film r308

My connection to Vivian Vance is that we were both born on the same day, July 26. (Of course not the same year)

Also sharing our birthday is Gracie Allen and Mick Jagger. Quite a lineup!

Ethel Mae Potter. (We never forgot her.)

[quote]I would say that I've seen enough of Lucy and Viv interacting on talk shoes, and when Viv surprised Lucy on Password, that they were warm friends

They were "show biz friends." That means the spoke when necessary, saw each other or talked once a year. They didn't hang out like normal people.

Not true, r312. They’ve both told stories of getting together at Lucy’s Camden Drive house to play cards and do their hair.

Lucille Ball a major cunt? I am shocked.

[quote]They’ve both told stories of getting together at Lucy’s Camden Drive house

Yes, once in 1962. Twice in 1964.

Go to 1:08...

I think in some ways Vivian outgrew the friendship ... or at least the more personal aspects of it. According to ILL hairdresser Irma Kusely, Phil did not want Vivian to have many friends. She also struggled with her mental heath during those years; she might have felt isolated and alone. She was with Lucille constantly, and so they naturally bonded. After her divorce and marriage to a fabulous gay man, her social circle widened and her mental health improved. The things she relied on Lucille for she found elsewhere.

Viv definitely fared better in later life than Lucille, at least until her health started failing.

Viv also moved to Ct during the third season of the Lucy Show. Her contract for that season required her to be off every fourth show. But still the long distance commute wore on her. When Lucy pushed for Viv to stay one more season, she would only agree if she got a spectacular deal. Lucy was ready to do it, but Gary convinced her not to do it.

I can believe they were upset with each other at the time Viv left, for sure. But remember Viv did come back to guest star every season after that. And, in fact, was planning on becoming a regular on Here's Lucy for season 7, but CBS pulled the plug

I wish Viv would have become a regular on Rhoda as was initially planned.

R320, I thought Viv was grim on Rhoda. Very unfunny and it was obvious she was still being Vivian Bagley.

R321 But come on. She hadn't done it in a while. I bet after a few weeks she would've improved.

The role on Rhoda wasn't exactly written to show off her comedic skills, either.

Vivian wrote somewhere that part of her mental problems stemmed from an overwhelming sense of responsibility rooted in childhood. Because her own mother was so unstable, she grew up feeling responsible for her younger siblings, and this feeling followed her into adulthood. For this reason, I think quitting The Lucy Show was a difficult decision for her. She didn't want Lucille to feel as if she were being abandoned (which is how Lucille interpreted it -- she had an awful fear of abandonment).

If given her druthers, though, I think Vivian would have quit much earlier -- as in, after a couple of seasons of I Love Lucy.

I loved the dynamic between Viv and Rhoda, and that Ida was jealous. It could have been developed and gone one much longer.

[quote]Phil did not want Vivian to have many friends.

That's typical abusive husband behavior.

I wonder if Viv had as much psych analysis in real life as she's getting on this thread.

This is a very MARY! post, but one of my favorite Lucy/Viv moments comes in the final season of Here's Lucy. In fact, it's one of the only good moments in all of Here's Lucy.

Lucy Carter is going on a cruise with Uncle Harry to accompany him for some business meeting. Of course, it being Lucy, she misses the boat. Borrowing from I Love Lucy, Lucy somehow gets a helicopter to lower her down on the ship in a big fishing net. Of course, the studio audience goes crazy, because they remember the bit from I Love Lucy. But there was another surprise for them. Of course, a crowd had gathered as Lucy was being lowered. Suddenly, a familiar voice in the crowd pipes up: "There's only ONE woman in the world I know who could board a ship like that!" And suddenly, to the delight of the studio audience, you see Viv Bunson appear from the crowd. "Lucy!" she exclaims. "Viv!" Lucy says. And they give each other a big hug as the audience gives an ovation.

I tear up when I see that scene. These two ladies are such a big part of my childhood. They were my escape. They never let me down. I love them.

R320 Yep, I thought she was awful on the episode.

[quote]I tear up when I see that scene. These two ladies are such a big part of my childhood. They were my escape. They never let me down. I love them

MARY!!!!!!! r327 (but I mean that in the most endearing way possible)

r328 she really didn't have much to work with

I'm watching an episode of Murder, She Wrote now guest starring Lucie Arnaz (along with Patty "Bad Seed" McCormack) as Cagney & Lacey knock-offs.

Arnaz ia god awful with her 'New Yawk' accent and hammy acting. This aired a few months before Ball died so I'm assuming Lucille must have died of mortification after seeing this. Shame Gary didn't try and talk lil Lucie out of this one.

Lucie got none of Lucy's talent. She's complete schlock.

I have sufficient ... of r331 / r332

Lol r326.

You know, I wonder how much Freudian analysis in those days actually helped patients, and how much of it was a placebo effect.

What made me cringe watching young Lucie on Password was how "on" she was all the time like she was auditioning for a role on the Jack Benny Show.

[R327] Is that clip available anywhere?

R336 It's on PlutoTV and Tubi. Season 3, episode 23. Lucy Goes Hawaiian.

That’s a ridiculous comment. I’ve seen Lucie Arnaz onstage three times and in a cabaret as well. She was terrific. She was also excellent in “Who is the Black Dahlia?,” a late 70s TV movie where she played murder victim Elizabeth Short.

Lucie Arnaz is also a better singer than her mom.

Anyone notice that Lucy Calls the President is taped on the set of Maude?

BTW I was wrong. It was season 3 of Here's Lucy, not the final season.

[quote]Lucie Arnaz is also a better singer than her mom.

Everett Dirksen was a better singer than her mom. Lucie Arnaz can sing. Her mother could not.

I'm a better singer than my mother. Big fucking deal.

Lucy reveals that she REALLY wanted Bea Benaderet and Gale Gordon for I Love Lucy. "I couldn't believe I had to go into television without Bea Benaderet."

I loathe Lucie's chipmunk vibrato.

There is also on youtube an interview with Julie Andrews which must have been the spring of '65. She gushes about Mary Poppins saying she's brought her family to see it 3 times and when Andrews mentions The Sound of Music Lucy says she hasn't seen it yet.

Maybe somebody already posted it on this thread and that's where I heard it!

R339, just about ANYONE sings better than this:

R339, that is most definitely NOT the Maude set nor remotely similar. The Maude set, after the show, was redressed and reconfigured as the dorm in the weird short first season of The Facts of Life when there were still more than four girls attending Eastland.

R347 the kitchen made me think it was.

R347 it's definitely the Maude set.

If you though Vivian was bad on Rhoda, imagine Lucille playing the same role.

^^^thought

The writing staff of Rhoda was so inept. They didn't know how to write for Vivian, or anybody really.

I concede the kitchen is. I didn’t watch that part. The living room isn’t.

r3532 that show had more writers than Blanche Devereaux had sexual partners.

Mea culpa. I'm the one who said this was taped on the Maude set. I was wrong. Though both shows were on CBS, in 1977 Maude was over at Metro Media Square, and Lucy Calls the President was taped at the Burbank Studios (now Warner Bros.) Though the kitchen is very similar, I doubt they shipped it from Metro Media to Burbank and back. Especially as Maude was still in production.

Why did Mary Wickes play Lucille's elderly aunt? They were roughly the same age.

Character actors can play any age, R356.

r325 I was the only one allowed to treat Viv like shit.

[quote]Character actors can play any age

Tell me about it.

[quote]Why did Mary Wickes play Lucille's elderly aunt? They were roughly the same age.

Coincidentally, Wickes also played Lucy's aunt ten years earlier on "The Lucy Show" episode "Lucy's Mystery Guest."

I outlived Viv, Desi, Lucille, AND Gale!

But not Mary Jane.

When she was dying, Viv told a number of stories about her earlier escapades in show business, including this one:

She was having an affair with Yip Harburg around the time The Wizard of Oz was released. He told her that studio execs wanted to cut "Over the Rainbow" because they felt it slowed down the film. Vivian said, "No, they can't cut it, you must insist it stay in!" And it stayed in. Who knows if Vivian really played a role in salvaging the song, but it's a nice story either way.

I've for sure heard that they damn near cut Over the Rainbow out of the picture. Crazy to consider how different things would be if they had. Would we still use the rainbow flag?

I'm sure that more than one person argued that "Over the Rainbow" should be retained.

Did she tell Yip that while he was up her poop chute?

I assume that Arlen/Harburg would have just had someone else record the song r363.

Interestingly, the music of "Over the Rainbow" was used in the 1941 noir I Wake Up Screaming (starring DL fave Carole Landis)

You can hear it here (11:08 if it's not cued up properly)

[quote]Mrs. Trumble

Oh, dear!

What do you expect, R368, I'm 148!

148 but pass for 97 r369

[quote]I assume that Arlen/Harburg would have just had someone else record the song R363.

What does this even mean? Problem solved! It won't be in the movie but Kate Smith is going to make a record of it!

A lot of eventual standards weren't introduced in musicals or films, r371, including some of the most covered: "Body and Soul," "'Round Midnight," "Lover Man (Oh Where Can You Be?)", "Willow Weep for Me," "Stardust," "In a Sentimental Mood," "What's New?", "Sweet Georgia Brown," etc.

"All the Things You Are," the second-most covered jazz standard of all time, was from a flop (Jerome Kern’s Very Warm for May).

"Over the Rainbow" would have been a standard, I think, even if it hadn't been included in the film, It just wouldn't have been so heavily associated with the film, and with Judy Garland.

"Over the Rainbow" is the heart of the movie, R372. Removing it would have been a huge mistake. Whether it might have survived as a standalone song really isn't the point.

I guess what I'm wondering is-would the rainbow have become the symbol of the LGB community if the song weren't included in The Wizard of Oz. I've always assumed the rainbow was our symbol due to the gays loving that movie, that song, and Miss Judy Garland.

Of course, I could be wrong about this. It was always just what I assumed.

I thought it was the producer Arthur Freed who was becoming very powerful at MGM and a favorite of Louis B who insisted it stay in. I doubt the lyricist was going to have much power.

I thought Gary Morton talked Yip out of taking it out of the movie...

Lies, r375! I dragged Yip into Louis B. Mayer's office personally!

How did this thread about ME turn into a discussion of Yip, Viv, and The Wizard of Oz?

[quote]How did this thread about ME turn into a discussion of Yip, Viv, and The Wizard of Oz?

Because no one really wanted to talk about your singing, Lucy.

Lucy's "singing" was on par with Bette Davis's.

"Viv and Yip" would be a good title for something

It was composer Harold Arlen who threatened to pull his entire score if “Rainbow” was cut. But it was really Melvyn LeRoy, the producer, who forced Mayer to stay out of it. (Arthur Freed had little to do with WOZ).

Elizabeth Patterson, by the way, was a card-carrying member of Hollywood’s Lavender Ladies.

[Quote] "Viv and Yip" would be a good title for something

Not a dress shop.

"Viv and Yip" sounds like a Vaudeville act

[quote] Melvyn LeRoy

Oh dear!

as r317 said, after her divorce and marriage to a fabulous gay man, [Vivian's] social circle widened and her mental health improved.

That made me so happy to read, we gay guys are a real asset to fading movie/tv stars. I think it's something in our genes...

John Dodds was the OG DLer r387

According to the Vivian bio, Katherine Hepburn used to play tennis with Phil Ober. She found his self-importance amusing.

To be a fly on that court!

^^^ Katharine