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Question for Speech Pathologist

What is the name of the impediment. when a person says Im-POR-Int for Important and Man-HA-in for Manhattan? A NYC Dept of Health exec encourages people to be vaxxed, telling us it's "Im-POR-int."

by Anonymousreply 142October 27, 2021 12:59 AM

I'm not speech pathologist, but surely it's just an accent. I first noticed it in a white coworker who grew up in Brooklyn, but I hear it more in black speech.

by Anonymousreply 1October 20, 2021 6:48 PM

On a related note, I know a woman who cannot pronounce the word "our" - her speech is otherwise fairly normal. I thought she had some regional accent, but this thread leads me to believe it's not that.

by Anonymousreply 2October 20, 2021 6:48 PM

It’s a glottal stop, op.

by Anonymousreply 3October 20, 2021 6:49 PM

It used to drive me insane when Gina would say "MAR-in" on the show Martin. (Lawrence). I also hate it when people say "im-POR-Dant. It's not a speech impediment, just irritating as fuck. Kind of like how Drew Barrymore speaks out of the side of her mouth. She didn't actually have a stroke or Bell's palsy, she just got into the habit of doing it.

by Anonymousreply 4October 20, 2021 6:49 PM

If your talking about Dr. Easterling that man can pronounce anything anyway he wants. What a side of beef he is.

by Anonymousreply 5October 20, 2021 7:26 PM

Some people from NYC have a weird way of saying ‘school’ or things with that type of oo sound.

Like they drag it out but every other word is “normal”

Anybody know what I’m talking about?

Lil Mo does it.

by Anonymousreply 6October 20, 2021 7:58 PM

My guido friend from Bensonhurst (now Staten Island) says “Man-HA-in.”

by Anonymousreply 7October 20, 2021 8:01 PM

It's just accent and usually it's young white women who lead the new speech patterns and trends, Google will tell you a lot.

I hate the bookish highly enunciated way many, mostly for now, young women say things like did-dent gar-den etc, every syllable is pronounced painstakingly.

by Anonymousreply 8October 20, 2021 8:03 PM

These mispronunciations need to be beaten out of those who say the words incorrectly.

Next time you hear one of them, OP, bitchslap the speaker.

by Anonymousreply 9October 20, 2021 8:07 PM

The umbrella term for the general category is "phonological change" - when changes occur in pronunciation patterns.

Dropping syllables is typical of the way languages evolve over time.

by Anonymousreply 10October 20, 2021 8:08 PM

Glottal shtop?

by Anonymousreply 11October 20, 2021 8:08 PM

People from Lonk Guyland do this.

by Anonymousreply 12October 20, 2021 8:32 PM

People just speak like this because they think it's cute. It's like people who say BUH-IN for button. My stupid coworker has just suddenly starting pronouncing it that way, when the whole 12 years we've worked together, she pronounced it correctly.

by Anonymousreply 13October 20, 2021 8:34 PM

Glottal Stop is correct. It's all over the US. Frequently heard on NPR in combination with vocal fry.

It's not limited to the US. It's all over the UK and is a feature of Cockney English.

It can appear as part of an accent, or as part of the phonetic structure of a language. And it appears in a LOT of different languages.

by Anonymousreply 14October 20, 2021 8:38 PM

Stupidity.

by Anonymousreply 15October 20, 2021 8:39 PM

Some people say “buddin,” with an obvious D sound.

Frankly, “BUH-in” sounds most natural to me, with a very soft or silent but implied T sound. Do people actually go around saying “buTT-on”?

by Anonymousreply 16October 20, 2021 8:39 PM

[quote]Do people actually go around saying “buTT-on”?

Fuck yes! That is how the word is properly pronounced. If you want to be heard, keep the air going forward.

by Anonymousreply 17October 20, 2021 8:49 PM

R16 Yes, non-retarded people say button.

by Anonymousreply 18October 20, 2021 8:52 PM

I would write the standard pronunciation as BUT-n (second syllable as n-sound with no vowel).

by Anonymousreply 19October 20, 2021 8:57 PM

Yes, it's a glottal stop, but IMO the larger issue is obliterating the consonant sound. It's a fucking double consonant, a lot of times, for God's sake. (Manhattan.)

On Real Housewives of NY, Carol Radziwill would say "kitten" like this "ki'in." I don't know why. IMO, it's not cute.

by Anonymousreply 20October 20, 2021 8:57 PM

And you would be wrong, R19.

NOT standard. You have described a non-standard regional pronunciation.

by Anonymousreply 21October 20, 2021 8:58 PM

This isn't really a speech impediment. It's a choice (maybe learned) to remove a consonant sound. It's a regional or trendyway of saying something. The same person who says "Manha'an" (Manhattan) would be able to say "tomato" and enunciate two separate T sounds.

by Anonymousreply 22October 20, 2021 9:01 PM

Hearing someone hard-pronouncing the Ts in ‘button’ makes me think of a Mary Poppins type of person. Or like a schoolteacher trying to emphasize for 1st graders how words should be pronounced.

Reminiscent of people who always enunciate the ‘-ing’ at the end of gerunds, never shortening it to ‘-in’. Dorks and fruitcakes, basically.

by Anonymousreply 23October 20, 2021 9:08 PM

OP, it's just the New York accent. No real New Yorker would ever pronounce the T sound in Manhattan, including the well-educated ones.

by Anonymousreply 24October 20, 2021 9:26 PM

My friend from New Jersey talks like this, not as an affectation.

A similar pronunciation tic I hear further south in the Mid-Atlantic is with “-ing” words. Not dropping the g as if you’re from the country, but pronouncing it more like “een” - “let’s go walking” pronounced “let’s go walkeen.”

by Anonymousreply 25October 20, 2021 9:31 PM

You can hear this stupidity only in the US.

by Anonymousreply 26October 20, 2021 9:34 PM

R26 = Speaks Bette Davis English.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 27October 20, 2021 10:22 PM

I hear im-por-TANT a lot, which is not how I learned to pronounce the word.

by Anonymousreply 28October 20, 2021 10:28 PM

Is it now acceptable to pronounce the T in "often"?

by Anonymousreply 29October 20, 2021 10:34 PM

One of the hosts on QVC (botoxed and filled to the max) pronounces it "imporDant." Another can't - or won't - pronounce the letter L. She says "code" for cold or "cawed" for called, etc. Many of the vendors also say things like "buh'in" in stead of button, etc.

It sounds like affectations.

It's bizarre that a business relying on salespeople who can talk nonstop would hire those who can't or won't speak properly.

by Anonymousreply 30October 20, 2021 10:49 PM

People who insist on a hard T must be Brits. Button and Manhattan are not pronounced that way in American English.

by Anonymousreply 31October 20, 2021 11:01 PM

I will shank anyone who says Real-A-tor.

by Anonymousreply 32October 20, 2021 11:04 PM

OP here, thanks R3 for Glottal Stop. I knew it wasn't a local accent.

by Anonymousreply 33October 20, 2021 11:24 PM

R29 It's not acceptable to pronounce the "T." Here's an easy remindert .. If You Can Say Soften, You Can Say Often."

by Anonymousreply 34October 20, 2021 11:30 PM

Another mispronunciation I'm reminded of is "little," when sung. It should be LIT-ul. Too many sing it as two syllabels .... LIT-TUL.

by Anonymousreply 35October 20, 2021 11:34 PM

R34 = William Safire

by Anonymousreply 36October 20, 2021 11:51 PM

It’s just regional. Nobody from the Bay Area pronounces hard consonants in the middle of words and every word melts together, for example. T-glottalization is the norm and not a speech impediment. In fact, I can’t think of anyone under the age of 70 who hits their Ts violently. That sounds pretentious, as if one is trying to compensate for childhood speech issues.

by Anonymousreply 37October 21, 2021 12:07 AM

Is saying wahdur for water, bad?

by Anonymousreply 38October 21, 2021 1:05 AM

[quote] People who insist on a hard T must be Brits. Button and Manhattan are not pronounced that way in American English.

Thank you. I don’t know what the hell R17 and R18 were on about.

by Anonymousreply 39October 21, 2021 1:25 AM

Rather than the crap shoot of finding a speech pathologist on the datalounge, I’d’ve power walked my Fanny to my local libary, heck, even Alexa may have been able to answer your question without weaponizing it through a politisexual prism.

by Anonymousreply 40October 21, 2021 1:33 AM

Yes, its stupidity born from poor education. After all, the USA ranks last in the developed world in education.

by Anonymousreply 41October 21, 2021 1:40 AM

[quote] libary

It’s liberry.

by Anonymousreply 42October 21, 2021 1:41 AM

R29 No. Someone who pronounces the ‘t’ in ‘often’ is trying overly hard to sound educated. That pronunciation marks the speaker out as terribly nouveau, and has the opposite of the desired effect.

by Anonymousreply 43October 21, 2021 1:48 AM

The founder of Harry's Razors pronounces the name "Hairys" Some people think Merry and Mary are the same. They need a vowel adjustment.

by Anonymousreply 44October 21, 2021 1:56 AM

r43 Uh no, the desired effect is to speak properly.

by Anonymousreply 45October 21, 2021 1:57 AM

That's a regional dialect. With a little low class thrown in.

by Anonymousreply 46October 21, 2021 1:59 AM

It's like the lower classes in Britain who pronounce "isn't it" as "init", or American blacks who pronounce "alright" as "ahight". It's a dialect based on vocal laziness.

by Anonymousreply 47October 21, 2021 2:01 AM

But it’s not “low class”. The wealthiest “classiest” groups of Americans don’t over enunciate T, and haven’t for generations. People who do sound insecure, as if they are trying to imitate some culture they have only witnessed on Frasier. People who want you to think they have an education, class, and money, but have none of those cultural currencies are who pronounce “often” with a T. Actual educated “upper class” individuals scoff at this lower class pretense.

by Anonymousreply 48October 21, 2021 2:12 AM

man-ˈha-tᵊn

ˈli-tᵊl

ˈbə-tᵊn

ˈȯ-fən

im-ˈpȯr-tᵊnt

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 49October 21, 2021 2:12 AM

[Quote]The wealthiest “classiest” groups of Americans don’t over enunciate T,

To pronounce the T is not to over rnunciate anything. Aren't your vittles getting cold?

by Anonymousreply 50October 21, 2021 2:16 AM

There was a time when all broadcasters understood that NEWS rhymed with views and cues. Today we hear network announcers says "CBS Nooz."

by Anonymousreply 51October 21, 2021 2:41 AM

That would sound incredibly pretentious, R51, to pronounce ‘news’ like ‘views’.

[quote] The founder of Harry's Razors pronounces the name "Hairys" Some people think Merry and Mary are the same. They need a vowel adjustment.

All those vowel sounds are the same to me. It also sounds odd to me when I encounter someone who pronounces ‘bury’ like ‘worry’ instead of ‘berry’.

by Anonymousreply 52October 21, 2021 2:52 AM

Cut the anti-elite bullshit offered to justify your poor educations and your lazy speech. You sound like a bunch of fucking Republicans.

Just listen to Arlene. Let her be your guide. Pay special attention to how to properly pronounce "chiffon."

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 53October 21, 2021 2:53 AM

And by the way, I’ve heard maybe 2 or 3 people in my life pronounce ‘bury’ like ‘worry’.

Can someone explain what the subtle difference is suppose to be between ‘hairy’ and ‘Harry’? I have never heard anyone pronounce them in anything but an identical way.

by Anonymousreply 54October 21, 2021 2:54 AM

R53, I’m assuming you’re joking…

If not, yikes!

by Anonymousreply 55October 21, 2021 2:55 AM

What does it mean that I still cannot pronounce the word rural?

by Anonymousreply 56October 21, 2021 2:58 AM

R56 I cannot say rural or Rory clearly.

by Anonymousreply 57October 21, 2021 3:00 AM

R54, go to Philadelphia and South Jersey and you will hear "ferry" pronounced "furry."

The vowel in "hairy" is phonated much farther forwarded in the mouth than the vowel in "Harry."

by Anonymousreply 58October 21, 2021 3:01 AM

[quote] ‘hairy’ and ‘Harry’

Hairy should be pronounced with a along A. Harry should be pronounced with a short a.

by Anonymousreply 59October 21, 2021 3:02 AM

Okay, folks... Here you go:

The letter T is a stop, not a glottal stop. A glottal stop happens further back in the throat, like the transition in uh-oh.

The phenomenon of dropping letters or sounds is called elision. Elision is common in English in the form of contractions. Elision (or deletion) of the letter T is fairly common on some regional accents outside the US, but actually fairly rare inside the US. It most likely happens before the letter N, like in the word kitten.

by Anonymousreply 60October 21, 2021 3:13 AM

No, R59. Not a long "a" in hairy.

by Anonymousreply 61October 21, 2021 3:15 AM

[quote] Hairy should be pronounced with a along A. Harry should be pronounced with a short a.

This just seems like a bizarre distinction to make (not your fault!), and incredibly awkward to try to insert a long A sound into ‘hairy’.

The word ‘dairy’ doesn’t seem to have what I would consider a long A sound. It rhymes with ‘carry’, doesn’t it?

by Anonymousreply 62October 21, 2021 3:17 AM

I can't believe some here don't know the difference between the pronunciation of Harry vs hairy.

by Anonymousreply 63October 21, 2021 3:18 AM

^^ I wouldn’t be surprised if a poll was conducted and found that most people don’t know there’s supposed to be a difference between Harry and hairy. I just never hear people pronounce them differently.

by Anonymousreply 64October 21, 2021 3:20 AM

What about the word ‘harried’? Is it pronounced like Harry, or hairy?

by Anonymousreply 65October 21, 2021 3:20 AM

Do salmon next!

by Anonymousreply 66October 21, 2021 3:28 AM

I’ve only ever heard non-native English speakers pronounce the ‘l’ in ‘salmon’.

by Anonymousreply 67October 21, 2021 3:33 AM

R66 My father has always pronounced it “sal-mon.” He has a very formal way of speaking and constantly corrected our grammar growing up, so this mispronounciation (?) puzzles the whole family.

by Anonymousreply 68October 21, 2021 3:34 AM

I liked this reply on another site:

[quote]I know this is an old post now, I wish I had been here to discuss this...so I will now, in case anyone wants to know, to include the author.

[quote]The Californian who answered that Harry and Hairy sound the same to him (and the PA person too) were right that in the majority of American dialects, the vowel sound in both of those words has become [ɛʌ], making both of those words sound like [hɛʌri]. It's a quick diphthong for them.

[quote]Now, where I am from- the metro New York area- we pronounce them quite differently. Harry = [hæri] and Hairy = [hɛʌri]. As far as I can tell from my studies, travels, interstate moves, and friends from other areas, the ONLY parts of the the US that recognize the distinction are metro NY and the northern half of New Jersey. Funny, growing up I thought it was normal, but when I went to college in Connecticut and then lived around the South, I got laughed at for making that distinction. Anyway, I like the distinction, and consider it correct, especially since it is distinguished in England to this day.

[quote]A second example of a distinction you will only see in metro New York is Mary/marry/merry. Most of the US considers those all to be [mɛʌri] but for me, they are three completely distinct words:

[quote]Mary = [mɛʌri] [quote]marry = [mæri] [quote]merry = [mɛri]

[quote]A complicated language, to be sure.

R63, where are you from?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 69October 21, 2021 3:40 AM

What about caramel everyone???

by Anonymousreply 70October 21, 2021 3:46 AM

Car-mel corn

Car-a-mel sauce

by Anonymousreply 71October 21, 2021 3:47 AM

^^ I have heard the word caramelized pronounced as carmelized more than a few times.

by Anonymousreply 72October 21, 2021 3:52 AM

I have never heard the word ‘caramelized’ pronounced with 4 syllables.

by Anonymousreply 73October 21, 2021 3:53 AM

R60 - followers of Nicki Minaj or Cardi B are all about the glottal break. It’s a thing now.

by Anonymousreply 74October 21, 2021 3:56 AM

A friend of mine pronounces the word ‘egg’ with a long A sound. Is she crazy?

She also pronounces ‘milk’ like ‘melk’.

by Anonymousreply 75October 21, 2021 3:59 AM

Google the word R72, and click the sound icon. It's four syllables. I was watching a cooking segment on TV earlier today, and that's the way the chef pronounced it as well.

by Anonymousreply 76October 21, 2021 3:59 AM

If you want to really parse someone’s speech, listen to and hour of The Pet Shop Boys. It ranges from repeating hard consonants to slurred ones.

“ .. I wanTT TTo wake up .. “

And “to do” becomes “to Loo”

by Anonymousreply 77October 21, 2021 4:03 AM

[quote] Google the word...

I meant that post for R73.

by Anonymousreply 78October 21, 2021 4:10 AM

R60, when describing physical distance. the correct word is "farther." "Farther back in the throat. "Easy to remember, begins with "far."

by Anonymousreply 79October 21, 2021 1:45 PM

R52, Pretentious? Maybe where you live in Bumfucke, but not with well-educated people.

by Anonymousreply 80October 21, 2021 1:50 PM

Would a thread like this work if we had questions for a sex therapist or would every Tom, Dick and Harry just give their opinions?

by Anonymousreply 81October 21, 2021 1:52 PM

R80, I live in NYC in the year 2021.

There’s a lot of classism in this thread from posters who think everyone should speak like society people from the 1950s and if we don’t, then we must be Republicans or living in some backwater town.

Old pronunciations for a lot of these words have mostly died out. I can empathize with the people who are upset about this, because I agree, broadly, that the old ways were better. I am generally opposed to the evolution of language. Certain DLers are gung-ho about that, however—“Language has always evolved, it’s a wondrous thing, it’s BEAUTIFUL that ignoramuses don’t understand certain idioms and words and have now bastardized them to the point that the malaprop version is becoming standard…”

I’m not one of those people! But it just isn’t accurate to say that ‘hairy’ and ‘Harry’ are pronounced differently and that people who don’t understand this are deficient in some way. Those words are pronounced different from each other in Britain and in the NYC metro area, and that’s it. The rest of N America, including Canada, does not pronounce them differently.

Same with ‘tour’— no doubt certain people are sure it’s pronounced like ‘tore’, and that that’s the only correct way to pronounce it, but there are regional variations all over the country. No doubt just as many, if not more, pronounce it as ‘too-er’, with two syllables.

by Anonymousreply 82October 21, 2021 2:06 PM

Let’s discuss Houston.

by Anonymousreply 83October 21, 2021 2:08 PM

[quote]Elision (or deletion) of the letter T is fairly common on some regional accents outside the US, but actually fairly rare inside the US.

You're a piss poor linguist, R60. The glottal stop is widespread in the US. Mou'un. Fou'un. Cer'ain. Impor'ant. Buh'un. Threa'un. Wri'un. Cur'un.

Listen - carefully - to broadcasts on radio and television - especially local broadcasts - and the glottal stop is constantly served up. Only cer'ain speakers will be doing, though. And when they do it, they always do it. It's the regional accent they learned. And no one on the faculty of their silly state university broadcast or communications programs bothered to make them fix it.

It's just a habit. A good speech teacher can point it out to them. As should any good station manager. Many of their listeners could do it, too. Then the speakers just have to discipline themselves to get rid of the goddamned thing.

by Anonymousreply 84October 21, 2021 2:16 PM

I don’t care about any of these pronunciations as long as vocal fry exists, let’s conquer that first and then we can sort this out.

by Anonymousreply 85October 21, 2021 2:19 PM

To-ron'-To

by Anonymousreply 86October 21, 2021 2:25 PM

My parents (born and raised in NYC) have an accent. I too was born and raised in NYC, but I don't have one. If I do, its not as pronounced. So, ya...I make fun of them.

by Anonymousreply 87October 21, 2021 2:35 PM

Try to place "Man Ha en, bu en" thats Manatten and button. I lived and worked in the area around Hartford CT and south. and some people had the accent so strongly that I couldn't nderstand rhem.

by Anonymousreply 88October 21, 2021 3:44 PM

That pronunciation of ‘button’ is common everywhere in North America, R88.

by Anonymousreply 89October 21, 2021 3:45 PM

Most of you come from trash.

by Anonymousreply 90October 21, 2021 3:51 PM

Yeah, I guess so, R90. That’s just the standard American accent, though.

Watch this video, where a woman clearly enunciates these words we’ve been discussing and explains how the “glottal stop” version works, and how it’s the standard American pronunciation.

Any American who pronounces ‘button’ with clearly emphasized T-sounds is either a fruitcake, a total dork, or a child just beginning to learn how to speak.

Fast forward to 0:30.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 91October 21, 2021 3:58 PM

This is partly why international business and humanitarian organizations don't like to hire Americans. Can't speak or write properly, no foreign language skills and can't find most countries on a world map.

Only the wealthy who have gone to private schools in the US seem to have a shot at a proper education.

by Anonymousreply 92October 21, 2021 4:37 PM

I think it is closer to elision than a glottal stop, as stated above (on second thought).

Even if you don't say a hard T, notice where your tongue is when you say "Manhattan," the tt part. At least for me, even if I elide or swallow the T sound, my tongue is placed at the roof of my mouth as if saying the T.

Also, "clothes." You don't really enunciate the "th" sound, but for a split second, your tongue is probably up against your top teeth as if saying the "th" sound.

by Anonymousreply 93October 21, 2021 6:03 PM

[quote]At least for me, even if I elide or swallow the T sound, my tongue is placed at the roof of my mouth as if saying the T.

Then you're not doing a glottal stop. It happens deep in the throat. Your teeth are irrelevant.

by Anonymousreply 94October 21, 2021 6:25 PM

[quote] This is partly why international business and humanitarian organizations don't like to hire Americans. Can't speak or write properly,

This is ridiculous. You are essentially saying Americans should stick to the British pronunciations of certain words. (But only certain words, of course, like ‘button’.) And if they don’t, that means they haven’t received a proper education and probably won’t be hired by international organizations. Pffft.

If you want to feign a British accent, go right ahead. But that makes YOU the freak, and a pretentious one at that.

by Anonymousreply 95October 21, 2021 6:31 PM

R60 Where'd you buy that "linguist" certification?

by Anonymousreply 96October 21, 2021 6:34 PM

Poor R95.

Of course, the quote and the entire post from which it was pulled, have nothing to do with R95's silly, het up diatribe. His use of the word "pretentious" gives it all away. Just more GOP anti-elitist garbage, designed to make the masses feel better about the shitty public school education the tax-cutting GOP has deigned to let them have.

Yes, dear. You know nothing, but you're every bit as good as those who do. Your thoughts are not every bit as good. But you are. Not to worry about that.

by Anonymousreply 97October 21, 2021 6:35 PM

[quote] Just more GOP anti-elitist garbage

You’re a nutjob. It does not take a Republican anti-elitist to recognize that someone is pretentious.

Which posts were you responding to at R92 anyway?

For the record, I’m a true blue Democrat with zero ties to the GOP or conservatism in general, I live in Brooklyn, and I have a degree in English.

Pull that stick out of your ass and shove your strawman up it, cunt.

by Anonymousreply 98October 21, 2021 6:42 PM

It's GOP garbage. They've been pushing it for years. You may not know you've adopted it, but clearly you have.

by Anonymousreply 99October 21, 2021 6:43 PM

The GOP has been pushing the idea that people who affect a British accent—and pretend it’s merely “proper” and all educated people should do it—are pretentious? Really, the *GOP* is behind that idea? It’s Republicans who have conned the majority of Americans into speaking with an unaffected American accent?

Take your goddamn meds and LOG OFF.

by Anonymousreply 100October 21, 2021 6:46 PM

First of all, standard speech is not 'affecting a British accent.' Take that away and the rest of your post collapses.

Dubya was famous for making decisions with "mah gut." Ivy League schooling, but don't let anyone know that it's a big part of who he is and how he got to the White House. No, no. Eschew education. Deny its importance.

Just rely on your gut and no one will call you pretentious. Don't listen to pretentious scientists when they talk about the need for vaccination against Covid. Just turn to your idiot pastor for help with science and medicien and you'll be fine. And no one will call you pretentious with your fancy airs and education and shit like that.

GOP garbage.

by Anonymousreply 101October 21, 2021 6:53 PM

“Standard speech”? As defined by whom?

The American English pronunciations as demonstrated in the video at R91 ARE STANDARD in North America.

Not even going to waste my time with the rest of your post, because your entire criticism rests on the idea that anyone not using *British English* pronunciations if certain words is not using “standard speech.” You do realize that’s the main thrust of your argument, yes?

by Anonymousreply 102October 21, 2021 7:04 PM

P.S. I’m an atheist, and I have been fully vaccinated against Covid since May.

And FUCK YOU for baiting me into responding to your nonsense. Blocking your delusional ass now.

by Anonymousreply 103October 21, 2021 7:06 PM

R102 believes pronouncing both Ts in Important is Brit-speak.

by Anonymousreply 104October 21, 2021 10:39 PM

Yeah, because it is, R102. Do you honestly believe in American Standard English, people clearly enunciate both of those Ts?

by Anonymousreply 105October 21, 2021 10:55 PM

R83, Houston in Texas, pronounced HEW-ston is named for Sam.

Houston in New York (HOW-ston) is for William Houstoun, who's father-in-law who owned lots of property, naming a street for him which was misspelled in city records in the 1800s.

by Anonymousreply 106October 21, 2021 11:48 PM

I moved from NYC to Hawaii several years ago. Of the new regional dialect, the pronunciation of the soft "T" drives me crazy. The newscasters say that something is very im-por-TANT. There's also pidgin Hawaiian which is something completely different. More like NewYorican.

by Anonymousreply 107October 22, 2021 12:19 AM

Who pronounces ‘important’ that way, R107? NYers or Hawaiians?

by Anonymousreply 108October 22, 2021 1:01 AM

What never ceases to astound me about the DL are the posters who firmly believe they, and only they, are in possession of The One True Way.

Who doesn’t understand that there are still regional accents in the US, and certain words are pronounced slightly differently in different parts of the country?

How this obvious and basic fact becomes fodder for class & political warfare is much more interesting to me than If you happen to pronounce pin/pen or hairy/Harry the same way or differently.

MARY! (Not “merry”)

by Anonymousreply 109October 22, 2021 2:58 AM

In English there is really no correct way to speak, as long as you speak whatever way consistently. The only arbiter are your peers, family, employer, teachers etc. There is no one officiel unlike in French or Spanish to decide. Even old teachers on DL cant control speach.

I was taught to not say the T in often too, but it is so common now that it may become standard. English changes constantly unlike other languages of-Ten do not.

by Anonymousreply 110October 22, 2021 3:48 AM

R109, As for "One True Way," broadcasters are trained to speak "General American English," On TV stations in the South, reporters and anchors don't have a Southern drawl.

by Anonymousreply 111October 22, 2021 8:59 AM

I miss the days of Old Hollywood and early TV when the Mid Atlantic accent was the standard elocution training for people working in media. And all on air radio and news journalists spoke the same, and again were trained to do so.

by Anonymousreply 112October 22, 2021 2:07 PM

R91 - there is a 4th version of the word "cotton" that she did not use as an example - and that's what some of the post are about in this thread.

She described "coTTon", "coDDen" and "coTNN". What she did not describe is "cah-Un" which has more of a grunting sound. So annoying.

by Anonymousreply 113October 22, 2021 11:54 PM

R108 Hawaiians say im-por-TANT...

by Anonymousreply 114October 23, 2021 12:11 AM

If you have two words with different pronunciations, they're not "both correct." One is always "preferred" by educated speakers, i.e. Koopon and Kewpon.

by Anonymousreply 115October 23, 2021 4:34 PM

Usually poor and/or stupid people sound like that.

by Anonymousreply 116October 23, 2021 5:05 PM

That's elitist BS. A preferred pronunciation by "educated speakers" does not automatically confer incorrectness on a word with multiple pronunciations.

by Anonymousreply 117October 23, 2021 5:08 PM

For those who are fascinated with the various American accents from the 1950s, watch this 30-minute-long video. The moderator chose six people from various areas of the US, and discussed why all of them spoke the way they did. Apparently, this was a topic of interest even back then.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 118October 23, 2021 5:17 PM

All I know is when I moved from the northeast to the southeast I noticed a few things. For example when I talk to people they cannot figure out where I'm from. I'm from the northeast baby.

by Anonymousreply 119October 23, 2021 5:30 PM

As long as you understand the person, what's the problem?

by Anonymousreply 120October 23, 2021 5:45 PM

The problem, R120, is that you can go to a job interview and sound like an educated professional person, or you can sound like the trash collector. You can meet new people in your life and sound like an accomplished and disciplined person, or you can sound like a hick.

Nothing necessarily is wrong with being a hick or sounding like your trash collector. But there are different ways to present yourself to the world and you should be in charge of that, armed with the skills you need to do well. If you went to a business dinner and ate peas off your knife, or pushed food onto a fork with your finger, it would be unlikely to make a favorable impression on your business colleagues. And things like vocal fry and glottal stops analogize to poor table manners. Saying, 'well, as long as I cleaned the plate' misses the point entirely and does not address the problem the poor table manners creates. Same thing with lazy regional speech.

Black and Hispanic professionals long ago learned to code switch, i.e., speak one way at home with family and in casual gatherings with friends, and then employ standard speech in the workplace. It's for many good reasons they do it and it is a valuable skill to have. We have a lot of privileged white Americans here in this thread who insist on being just as good as anyone else (probably better,) without cleaning up their lazy speech. They are just as good. But they don't sound like it. And they've no one to blame but themselves. Every college and university with a theater department, a music department, a communications department, broadcast department... they all have speech teachers. Use them.

by Anonymousreply 121October 23, 2021 6:40 PM

R121, if it falls within the accepted American English pronunciation, then it’s good enough for a professional setting. You’re talking about pronunciations that are used in professional settings everywhere in North America.

You just have arbitrary standards that are loftier than anyone else’s. No one outside of Great Britain and the NYC metro area is ever going to meet those standards. And fortunately, you aren’t the arbiter of what is proper and you aren’t hiring or firing any of us here.

by Anonymousreply 122October 23, 2021 6:50 PM

[quote]You just have arbitrary standards that are loftier than anyone else’s.

Simply untrue. And very, very, defensive. I wonder why.

by Anonymousreply 123October 23, 2021 7:04 PM

R118, thank you! That was really interesting.

I'm going to try to clean up my speech. I just asked my son if he wanted mayonnaise on his veggie burger. Maynaise? Mayonnaise?

by Anonymousreply 124October 23, 2021 7:05 PM

R121 You are an extremely condescending, pretentious gasbag who lives in an ivory tower.

by Anonymousreply 125October 23, 2021 7:18 PM

I had a handsome strapping boyfriend from New Jersey who did the improper pronunciation of Manhattan, it tends to be a very Jersey thing, butchered button and kitten too. Those double “T”s just seemed to do him in. He could never understand why he didn’t get promoted at Goldman Sachs despite how hard he worked. I could never bring myself to tell him that part of it was most likely his pronouncement of certain words. He grew up upper middle class, went to a good college, was tall, good looking, outgoing and personable, but if you can’t pronounce the word kitten correctly you’re going be fucked getting ahead in the high end business world.

And not to come off as biased, I grew poor white trash in Pennsylvania, but education and sounding educated was very important to my family. While I had cousins who spoke with a Pennsylvania Dutch inflections, we’re we’re told at an early age that was very uneducated despite being our heritage. My mother being a school teacher recognized that I had a speech impediment by the time I was four and sought to get me speech therapy paid for by the school district since it was very expensive. They said I could wait until I was in Kindergarten, but she said I couldn’t wait that long and lobbied them to provide it. I was the youngest child in the state to get speech therapy before I began school (circa 1969) By the time I entered school I spoke clear enough that students didn’t notice and I did not get teased for it. After years of speech therapy it was all corrected.

I studied Art History and got internships at Museums like The Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Brooklyn Museum and IBM Corporate collections and lectured on Art at all three. Once when I was at The National Gallery of Art talking to a friend about a painting a stranger approached and asked if I lectured in the galleries at the Met, because my voice sounded so familiar, distinctive, dedicated and authoritative on art and the recognized me because of it. Multiple times I had people ask me about my background after lecture on art believing that I grew up wealthy in New York surrounded by art and antiques because that’s how I sounded. Little did they know I grew up poor white trash trash with gun racks in the back windows of our car and should have gone hungry many times if not for my father being a hunter and a state college education.

You can hide a lot of your background by speaking correctly and educated and carrying yourself well. Conversely, you can come from wealth and privilege with everything handed to you including a Ivy League education, but if you can speak correctly you can be written off just based on that.

by Anonymousreply 126October 23, 2021 7:31 PM

*can’t

by Anonymousreply 127October 23, 2021 7:33 PM

Notice how the presenter in the video no longer speaks the way he used to. I wonder why? That’s because he knows he sounds far more intelligent doing it the British way. He doesn’t sound like a hick from down South.

by Anonymousreply 128October 23, 2021 8:06 PM

"..but if you can’t pronounce the word kitten correctly you’re going be fucked getting ahead in the high end business world"

So true, R126. Education, work experience, prior success, NONE of those matter at all. It's definitely ALL about the kittens.

by Anonymousreply 129October 23, 2021 10:03 PM

R126 is a parody post, right? A parody of R121, perhaps?

God, I hope so, because that was hilarious.

by Anonymousreply 130October 23, 2021 10:38 PM

[Quote]Notice how the presenter in the video no longer speaks the way he used to. I wonder why?

R128 Are you talking about the video in r118? I think, in those days, he never would've been given that type of job if he had spoken in his original accent. I believe it was in the late 1960s or early 1970s when today's General American Accent became the norm among public speakers.

by Anonymousreply 131October 23, 2021 10:45 PM

Loved both posts @ r121 and r126. He knew what was important to him, and he took care of it. Presentation, accent, carriage, grooming, and dress can make a huge difference in some lines of work.

by Anonymousreply 132October 23, 2021 11:05 PM

For people who grew up in lower or working class circumstances, have gone to college and aspire to better things, there are classes on how on how to handle yourself in social situations, including proper etiquette when dining out. Before I got a Management job in my Fortune 50 company was taken to lunch, had no clue my table manners were part of the evaluation. Found out later had I salted or peppered food before I ate, it meant I made decisions without the full knowledge of the situation.

by Anonymousreply 133October 23, 2021 11:42 PM

My partner’s grandchild is named Ainsley but her Mexican grandmother calls her Ashley because she can’t pronounce her name.

by Anonymousreply 134October 24, 2021 8:32 PM

I pronounce the word puberty as poo-berty. I know it’s wrong but the priest in high school who taught a very tame, low key course in development pronounced the word that way. He also pronounced vagina as vah-geenuh, with a hard g. I don’t pronounce it that way because I don’t use the word.

by Anonymousreply 135October 24, 2021 8:38 PM

[quote] He also pronounced vagina as vah-geenuh, with a hard g. I don’t pronounce it that way because I don’t use the word.

LMFAO

by Anonymousreply 136October 24, 2021 9:30 PM

[quote] but if you can’t pronounce the word kitten correctly you’re going be fucked getting ahead in the high end business world

Comedic facetiousness at its best. Bravo R126.

by Anonymousreply 137October 25, 2021 6:14 PM

A woman I worked with said Pon-tee-Us Pilot and Port-U-gul.

by Anonymousreply 138October 25, 2021 7:40 PM

The News Director for a 50,000 watt New York station can't say contractions. Wouldn't is woont and says coont for Couldn't. Is this a Glottal Stop problem?

by Anonymousreply 139October 25, 2021 11:33 PM

[quote]Is this a Glottal Stop problem?

No. It's the opposite of a glottal stop, in that coont and woont have no stop of the air flow at all.

Properly pronounced, the "d" in couldn't and wouldn't is sounded by momentarily stopping the air flow by placing the tongue at the rough of the mouth, just behind the teeth.

The glottal stop eliminates the interruption of the air flow with the tongue at the roof of the mouth, just behind the teeth, and replaces it with stopping the air flow with the glottis, deep in the speaker's throat.

by Anonymousreply 140October 26, 2021 1:51 PM

In my case I'm mutli-lingual. English of course then Spanish and Italian - all because I found out the Latin root languages all use identical vowel sets and the differences in language depend upon who invaded who. In the case of Spain the Islamic/Arabic thing influenced the hell out of the language where Italian is more Latin based.

by Anonymousreply 141October 26, 2021 7:16 PM

I love the way we speak in Andalucia. It even varies on our mood. Nada mas. Nada ma, Nao mao. Try to keep up, Spanish students. LMAO.

by Anonymousreply 142October 27, 2021 12:59 AM
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