Have you ever had and lost a friend to extremism?

Yes, a brother.

Yes a friend of mine began playing Pokémon Go.

Yes, my favorite (ex) boss who turned out to be a racist, far, far right extremist. He had a masters in computer science which means he had critical thinking skills but posted thigs from Alex Jones and others. He wasn't religious but was strongly against abortion. I came to the conclusion it was all about his fear of losing his white male privilege..

Sorry to hear that...

Did they try to make you out to be intolerant when you backed away or expressed that you disagreed with them?

Some of the biggest pieces of shit I've ever known had belief systems identical to mine and some of the most worthwhile people I've ever known had beliefs that were the total opposite of my own. So I know it's possible and in theory desirable to coexist comfortably with very different people as long as both of you are able to avoid certain topics and maintain a certain mutual tolerance and respect.

Yeah, a huge Democratic friend once screamed at me for not voting in midterms, but it was a year when we only had one senator up for election and he was unopposed. My friend was beside himself because it was my responsibility to always vote Democratic no matter what, even if the vote wasn't needed, and he and some real cunt of a friend of his attacked me repeatedly on Facebook about it to the point that I had to block them both. They were accusing me of becoming a Republican and hating Democrats, which wasn't true, and I was constantly getting messages from mutual friends asking me why I wasn't a Dem anymore.

He approached me later to try to make up for it and we slowly got back in touch, when Hillary Clinton became the Democratic candidate. He loathed her, hated her like crazy, and starts posting that he's going to vote Trump just to keep her from winning.

The guy who literally harassed me for not voting for an unopposed Democrat was now saying he was going to vote Trump. Unbelievable. Cut him right off. Never should have given him a second chance.

He has since changed all his social media accounts and is now a huge Glenn Greenwald-Tulsi Gabbard "leftist," which of course means "not a leftist at all."

I have an anti vaxx friend whose views surprised me initially, now I just just chalk it up to mistakenly thinking she was smart when she's actually dumb.

She drones on about it, and I let her for the sake of the friendship. Once she talked about it so long I was able to get a home workout in (on mute) without her even noticing. It was a 45 min workout.

Good article

My closest and oldest friend - went to HS and college together. She has been sucked into the whole Q Anon - right wing information cesspool. She constantly is fixated on YouTube and gets all her information from content creators there - Fox News is too corporatist and in on it all. We've been friends for over 25 years, buts it gets harder and harder. I figure after friendship for that long there's plenty to talk about - but when she and her family have basically bunkered down in their house, I guess there isn't. I try to keep things light, but I just never know what's going to set her off.

They are firmly anti-vaxx and I never know what to say so I just keep my mouth shut. The other day she's basically crying on the phone because she feels that her stance is cutting her off from society. I feel like saying Jesus Christ bitch, just go get a damn jab. I can't though... Just not sure what kind of tsunami that would unleash.

So I just wonder how much longer I can continue and think it's best to just quietly let things drift off.

Yes. I had a really good friend whom I’d met who is a fellow DNP. She as a Bernie supporter became unhinged during 2016 elections, and she eventually voted for Stein. Why? Because she said it’d help Trump win and Trump was a better option if we want to destabilize things so that people would give socialism a chance. No amount of convincing from me would deter her from BSC trope of Trump Better than Hillary being spewed by her in person and online.

I backed away from the friendship when she rejoiced at Hillary fainting, she actually said to me that she hoped Hillary has a stroke or brain tumor and dies quickly so that Bernie could then be drafted. For a healthcare provider to be gleefully hoping that another person gets sick and die, told me all I needed to know about her.

You have to state categorically that when you are together, you are not willing to discuss anything related to politics or medicine/science. I did that with my parents, and they still find it almost impossible not to broach those subjects in some way—and usually so so with some other topic that lets them talk about it without really doing so. That’s when I abruptly change the subject or simply state, I’m not interested in discussing this”. The problem is that they don’t think or talk about anything else, so they are literally at a loss.

My anti-vaxx, anti-mask, MAGA uncle. He was recently "escorted" from a store for harassing someone about having a mask on. He gets more unhinged and embarrassing all the time. Increasingly angry at the rest of us, my parents in particular, because we won't hang out with him (maskless and indoors, of course!) and listen to him rant (he no longer talks about anything other than Demonrats, tyranny and his freedumbs).

It's like he's been replaced by a violent, substandard, embarrassing version of the guy we all once knew and loved.

I have a friend of 30 years who has always been Conservative, but we've always been able to discuss (and argue) good-naturedly about our various areas of disagreement. However, since Trump and Covid, he's become more strident and simply parroting the Trump talking points. I recently found out he and his whole family (kids and grandkids) are anti-vax when his youngest son (31) was hospitalized with Covid pneumonia for 10 days, and is now out on oxygen with probably permanent lung damage. But he's still spouting all the conspiracy anti-vax nonsense. I've realized that if nearly losing his own son can't get through to him, I haven't a chance, and the guy that I used to know has changed irrevocably. It's tragic.

It seems we have come to grips with the fact that millions of people are being radicalized on Facebook, and that the company intentionally created the atmosphere for this fact, yet we aren’t going to come together and do something about it?

I actually meet way more "left wing" extremists, as in people who want to suck proverbial tranny dick constantly. I live in a liberal metropolis, though. These people really have dumped ME for refusing to agree with them on their stupid "queer" politics. It's hilarious because all of these people are usually straight yet they want to dump an actual gay person for not agreeing that kids should be in drag shows or whatever. I just want to know where all the normal people are.

I don’t talk to these people. The second I hear even a single word of this right-wing propaganda then I punch and delete.

It is going to take professional anti-cult counselors to get through to these people or Facebook is going to have to release the spell (algorithms).

Read this, the "neurodiverse" hacker responsible for a lot of fake news feels bad when his father won't get vaccinated

It’s like trying to stay friends with a heroin addict while they are still in active addiction. As long as they are “mainlining” Fox News and disinformation on social media, nothing will change. Ultimately you have to choose to leave them be. They have a right to make choices, but so do you.

I get that the transgender debate rouses very fierce passions on both sides. I don't want to enter into the substance of that debate here.

A former friend is on the gender-critical side but has embraced it far, far beyond the point of reason. I counted out all his tweets and retweets once and he was at over 100 per day, every day, all on the same topic. He has also developed a position that I would call at the extreme edge of paranoia, including calling for a public enquiry into the organisation Stonewall's successful subversion of the entire UK government. A former lawyer (disbarred due to drug addiction issues) he now passes his days as a legal commentator writing lengthy letters in fluent legalese to campaigning organisations demanding they account for every pro-trans comment made by anyone associated with them. In short, he has become an obsessive. I believe that the behaviour (and his previous addictions) have roots in events which have nothing really to do with the trans issue, all the same, it's a little scary to watch.

Not quite but it's been never the same with an old friend who switched from progressive to Trump, a process over 20 years. So I can't joke with him about Don the Con. And where's the fun in friendship now?

[quote]he was at over 100 per day, every day, all on the same topic

Regardless of topic, once someone is at this point, it's nearly impossible to deal with them. Even if it was over 100 tweets a day of something benign like plants or carpet samples, it would be obsessive.

[quote]It seems we have come to grips with the fact that millions of people are being radicalized on Facebook, and that the company intentionally created the atmosphere for this fact, yet we aren’t going to come together and do something about it?

The right wing bubble currently being exploited by social media was well underway before the World Wide Web protocol was even invented. Right wing radio shows like Rush Limbaugh's and cable stations like Fox and ETWN built the audience and the "we're just saying what everybody's thinking" style of delivery.

Honestly I think Twitter is more destructive to the discourse; The character limit and the style of interaction permtted promote a kind of drive-by-and-shoot casual cruelty which seeps into and colours the issues being discussed.

Fortunately I don’t have any friends who are stupid enough to fall for the Q/Covidiot bullshit, but my mom’s sister - her only surviving sibling - is neck-deep in the cult. My mom has warned my aunt several times not to bring up politics, but she invariably does - like a true cultist, my aunt just can’t help herself. It’s really sad that my aunt has chosen Trump over her family at the end of her life, but my mom has come to the realization that there’s no convincing a 92-year-old woman that everything she believes is wrong.

I had a school friend who refused to believe that the guys from Pet Shop Boys are gay. Then he refused to believe in global warming. And it got only worse from there. I don't even bother with high school reunions.

[quote]I just want to know where all the normal people are.

True, people who are pro-gay but anti-trans are pretty thin on the ground.

r26, chasing unicorns, I see.

I thought the title was “……. Exorcism”.

LOL at the anti-trans jihadis trying desperately to derail yet another thread.

[quote]Right wing radio shows like Rush Limbaugh's and cable stations like Fox and EWTN built the audience and the "we're just saying what everybody's thinking" style of delivery.

Good observation about EWTN—as a non-Catholic, I used to think they were a mouthpiece for the church in general and not the wingnut fringe. Catholic DLers, do most of your family and friends think they're nuts/find them embarrassing?

Remove yourself from toxic people as fast as you can. Don't try to save them from themselves and their stupidity. Treat it like the COVID-19 virus and keep your distance from them.

These people are too far gone and either want to recruit you or destroy you. Your past relationship no longer matters to them. You are either with them or against them.

I've said this before and others here are saying it. Trans is the left's Trump. It's not as immediately serious, but it's just as untrue. You cannot change gender, and people who should know that are just denying it and saying we're wrong.

R30 check out this great article on EWTN

Shut about trans people and stop ruining every thread. There was a week or two of peace away from those hateful trolls and it made a world of difference to the quality of this board.

I put trolls like r32 on ignore.

R32 it has become such a cause celebre and is in fact akin to Trump in that it has overshadowed the rest of the community and has sucked all the oxygen out of the room. Honestly I support trans people, but the belligerent activism and everyone suddenly a gender minority has led me to avoid it.

I had a friend since childhood who became a rabid Brexiteer. He has gone so far with it that I don’t recognise him as the same person any more. We no longer talk. Every conversation ended with him ranting about Eastern Europeans. It became exhausting, and I dreaded seeing him.

Half my family and a few friends. They can fuck off. I don't need that lunacy in my life.

[Quote] It’s like trying to stay friends with a heroin addict while they are still in active addiction. As long as they are “mainlining” Fox News and disinformation on social media, nothing will change. Ultimately you have to choose to leave them be. They have a right to make choices, but so do you.

This, from R18. They have an answer for every form of logic you put in front of them. Waste of energy.

A representative tweet from my former friend, discussed above. Taking down 'shadowy and secretive elites changing society by stealth' on the very day an MP in his country was murdered.

*****

"The subversion of democracy is the key point here. Our Stonewall moment in the UK is wide scale corruption, nothing less. Shadowy and secretive elites changing society by stealth with no reference to the electorate or their own constituency.

This stinks and it goes to the top"

Sad.

Depending on the specifics of your situation you may find online support on Reddit of all places, the posts on this sub are heartbreaking:

[quote]Have a friend or loved one taken in by QAnon? Look here for support, resources and a place to vent. Peruse old posts, settle in and relax. Learn to heal, deal and deprogram. Posts should relate to the direct experience of dealing with Q/adjacent folk. This can include posts with support, info or practical advice. Anyone can comment, but be substantive and in good faith.

About 30 years ago I lost a good friend to a religious cult, and it was illuminating. She abruptly decided to move across the country and asked if we could be roommates while she got settled. She knew I was gay because I'd come out to her while we were in college, and she'd been an ally when allies were rare. About a month after she arrived, she started hanging out with a crowd of people neither I nor any of my friends knew. I had no idea she was getting wrapped up in it, but was pleased that she was making friends outside of mine... until, months later, I found out who and what they were. By then, it was too late.

Her mother called me worried that they hadn't heard from her in a while, and she (the friend) was really pissed that I encouraged her to call her parents, and let loose with a tirade about me and my fag friends trying to control her. I was shocked and hurt. I immediately told her she had 48 hours to move out, and within hours I had a group of pious Christians glaring at me as they carried her shit out the front door. The saddest part was she had a senior cat which I adored. About three days after she moved out, she called to collect the cat and I asked about whether her new accommodations would allow pets and I'd be happy to keep her, and she said, "No, but I'd rather put [the cat's name] down than leave her with you." And those are the last words she spoke to me.

Wow, r43.

That is dark. Poor kitty!

R43 Sounds like a piece of work.

OP YES. A dear friend who believes men can change sex. Extreme fantasy.

R46 it’s a fetish LOL

One of my longtime best friends revealed himself to be a 9/11 truther about 7 years ago or so. Lots of conspiracy theory garbage ensued over time, culminating in his embrace of Trump and QAnon shit. Ultimately I think he just mostly hates political correctness, and is willing to support fascism in order to fight it. He lacks a mature understanding of how politics, the law, and governance work; his knowledge of history is slight and superficial, and probably based on random shit posted online. On those rare occasions when we do talk, I steer the conversation away from all that crap. We used to be much closer, before this nonsense.

Yes, a sibling and 2 nephews

Landmark Forum

Sigh

[quote] He loathed her, hated her like crazy, and starts posting that he's going to vote Trump just to keep her from winning.

Hillary sent so many people insane.

What about those suburban kids from UK going off and joining isis like what in the hell was that about?

It’s sort of like how the deplorables are being recruited in rural America.

Yes. I lost a high school friend to megalomania that presented itself as extreme cuntitude.

I'm sure some people would say yes about me. From where I'm sitting, I stayed the same and the rest of you went crazy.

Yes, because a gay men who hates gay men is so well positioned to call other people crazy

R55 It’s a fetish LOL

I had a friend who was very left wing. She considered Dems and Republicans to be equally bad which pissed me off. In 2016 she voted for Jill Stein which I considered a pro Trump vote. We stopped talking politics around then but stayed friends. The last time I saw her I realized she was also one of those 9/11 conspiracy types. She tried to convince me it was an inside job and. Bush was the mastermind. We have stopped being friends completely. I can’t take the crazy.

Old friends are like dead tree branches. They neither bare fruit or flower. They just poke you in the eye. Time to prune.

I've lost several friends to extreme couponing.

When they start telling you, seriously, ‘that the vaccine contains nano particles that can’…stop them right there.

R60 reminds me of a time, more than 20 years ago, when a friend told me he might turn into cheese someday. I sat there thinking he’d finally gone around the bend, as he told me about the development nanobots that could be injected into the body, where, atom by atom, they would change flesh into cheese. I wonder what he’s making of covid.

So theoretically I could turn my legs to cheese and eat them?

Most of my friends from my church group, even those fine with me being gay. Also friends form college. The 2016 broke my vision of them, but I also grew up and said fuck the closet and my stifling lonely life. So the break would have occurred with it without Trump, but their hypocrisy could no longer be ignored.

I mourn the loss but moved on and found better people.

I have a decades-long friend that started going to one of those big box evangelical Christian churches. I never really wanted to talk about it with her. I always assumed it was her husband who wanted to start going. At some point, out of laziness, or whatever, they stopped going. She did tell me that her husband thought their church was spending too many resources on being anti-gay. So, I guess they're not that extreme.

When she and I first knew each other, we never talked about God or religion at all that I can remember. It's hard to switch gears with old friends. If I met someone new who wanted to socialize, being involved in an evangelical church would be a deal-breaker for me, right off the bat. I don't need friends that badly.

A good friend - easily the smartest guy I know - has become a disciple of the "intellectual dark web" nonsense. Essentially, he's now a right wing guy, but doesn't want all the baggage of being right wing, so he adopted the IDW moniker.

And that's fine. He can believe what he wants.

But now, I'm not his liberal friend. I'm a fascist, evil, racist, homophobic (he's straight, I am not), Islamisist (nope), anti-woman, etc.

It's truly bizarre.

I've slowly backed away for about a year now. I miss his intellect, but that seems to be missing these days. I'll circle back with him when he comes back down to earth. Maybe.

There is something like a blue-screen, mass psychosis going on, not unlike the experiments done in the 60s using film. I think that Tim McVeigh was a participant.

That stuff will mess up your brain for years after the fact.

A fairly close friend turned out to be an anti-vaxxer. This was in the pre-Covid days. I only found out when she started posting anti-measles vax stuff on FB.

An ex-boss, who I had stayed in touch with. Although he worked in minority outreach -- and voted twice for Obama -- he turned into a Trumper in 2016. After several discussions/arguments, I cut him out of my life.

A female cousin who lived across the country also turned out to be a Trumper. Once again, I only discovered the fact when she posted pro-Trump crap on her FB page prior to the 2018 mid-term elections. I no longer have any interaction with her. (Neither does her brother.)

I currently suspect that my sister-in-law has gone over to the dark side (right wing anti-vaxxer). Since I have little direct contact with her -- and since she and my brother live 400 miles away -- I have been able to avoid confronting the issue so far.

A friend of mine who was libertarian went full Trump before the last election. He even joined Gays for Trump. I'm somewhat libertarian myself so we got along before although I can't vote Trump. So, he's a little crazy now. But I'm still friends with him cause I'm hoping to get some of that big thick Portuguese American cock.

Oy Gramps.

A friend just kept getting more and more Catholic. She got in up to her nose with Padre Pio, which was bad enough. Then she started flirting with Opus Dei. That's when I had to let that friendship go.

A friend (masters degree in philosophy) went from seeming to be a moderate, perhaps with some libertarian leanings, to sending me links to websites that had endless lists of people Hillary Clinton was responsible for murdering. He sort of treated it like a half joke at first, but when I questioned it and expressed that I didn't think Hillary had murdered anyone - or had anyone murdered on her behalf - he got extremely angry. Shouting, door-slamming, storming out of a restaurant etc. Last I heard he voted for Trump but the writing wa son the wall for the friendship after the Hillary stuff.

It's interesting how hating Hillary Clinton seems to have been the entry to true nutjobbery for so many people. Did some AI identify that as the cognitive weak spot for jackholes?

I think.it’s the same as any abusive relationship- the only answer is distance. It’s hard not to feel guilty if it’s a good friend or family member, but they have been brainwashed by disinformation and propaganda. They have chosen to ruin the relationship with their abusive behavior. Either you negotiate acceptable conditions while together (I.e, discussion of politics) and if they can’t respect it, send them a Christmas card every year and stay away from them.

The gravitational pull of right wing Trumperism or whatever you want to call it seems to be so strong that many unexpected people get sucked into it. I’ll never understand that in a million years. How someone could vote twice for Trump and his dog whistle racism, self-serving grift, and just the plain fact he is unintelligent, vulgar, and wildly inappropriate to lead a country. He mocked a disabled man from the stage should have been enough for any decent person to firmly say no. Sorry, but all of your friends in these anecdotes are vile, shit people.

R73 he was an idiot, but he said true things that needed to be said that nobody else was saying, like we need far far less or no immigration, our institutions are hopelessly corrupt, and the trade deals championed by both parties have helped global corporations at the expense of the American worker.

I wish somebody with more character had said it, but I was glad at the time that someone did.

Also, Hillary really is that awful that a lot of people would have voted for Casey Anthony, OJ Simpson, or George Zimmerman to be president over her.

The president who was the very definition of corrupt (violations of every aspect of the Hatch act, family nepotism in government right and left, kickbacks from property that he continued to own and run as president, missing presents from foreign government that were never properly identified or catalogued as required by law, identified OTHERS as corrupt? The same man that appointed some 15 cabinet members who had to resign in disgrace after their corruption was publicly identified? Boy, do you have your head in the sand, mister. de Jure.

My sister. I’ve tried to coexist with her for a long time, but the emergence of Trump these last several years has given her carte blanche it seems to be more open about her white supremacist views. I’ve instituted a no-politics policy with her, but have discovered that that’s not too workable. It’s not as if her reactionary views could simply be put in a box, as her views are informed by her personality, which is highly negative, paranoid, and bitter.

R76 same deal with my Trump loving brother. He dropped out of college and Randomly joined the Army. Now he expects us to kiss his ass like some sort of action hero. He insists that Trump can do no wrong.

I tried avoiding politics but every conversation dips into right wing style topics. Like the last time we spoke I tried talking about movies, something he used to love prior to COVID. Something that shouldn’t be controversial for us to discuss. Somehow, he wanted the go into how they are trying to be woke with comic books, making the Green lantern gay in comics. Just randomly went to that topic.

He knows I’m gay but felt the need to complain to me about that representation. Only a matter of time before he starts seeing my existence as a problem. It might have seen like a minor comment on his end, but it really hurt me to hear that from him. Like, this is what he wanted to talk about with me?

So, I’m going back to forgetting I know his phone number. Family or not, I’m not going to willingly associate with that type of person. I’ve had to tell my parents how exhausted I am with him.

My mom, a lifelong Democratic voter, has also started dropping some right wing talking points because she’s against the COVID vaccines. I asked where she was getting her information. She said she started listening to talk radio on her way to work. “It’s nice to hear someone saying what I’ve been thinking!”

I hardly have the energy to fight with my mom so we’ve also turned to a no politics discussion. Now my brother is a lost cause and my mom’s turning against Democrats. My dad’s the last hold out.

I’m just emotionally exhausted with my family. As black people it’s sad as hell to see so many of them fall into the white nationalists plans. I’m also sick of this country. First time in my life, I’m seriously considering looking for a job in Europe. If it’s all going to shit, at least give me some social safety nets and cultural harmony.

R77, I so empathize with you. I failed to note that I am Jewish, so having my Jewish sister, who’s been Jonesing for a race riot for years now, makes it even more difficult. She once said in this context they “they” - meaning Black people - won’t be on my side once the inevitable war commences. I didn’t tell her that her “side” surely does not regard Jews as members of their team. I read that on a flight home, many of the 1/6 insurrectionists were quoting “6MWE” which means 6 million Jews weren’t enough. And of course there were the Charlottesville protesters proclaiming that the “Jews will not replace us.” My sister, though, is, like millions of other, mostly uneducated, people, deep within a cult which, to her, at least, has given her deplorable life some meaning.

[quote] it was all about his fear of losing his white male privilege..

Yes it was all about social-justice-speak that was invented a few years ago. I’m sure you’re right.

is this thread related to the 'signs someone has a personality disorder' thread?

I've posted about my college days in the early 70's on DL before - losing my virginity the very first week of college to the art professor who seduced me, then fucked me silly for months until he found another cute young freshmen to seduce; discovering drugs (speed, acid and grass got me through college); meeting Jane Fonda at a campus anti-war protest; picketing in front of the White House before Nixon resigned; etc.

My partner-in-crime through most of those experiences (well, except for the gay sex part) was a girl I met sophomore year. Tall, uninhibited and wildly artistic with an outlandish sense of fashion and a huge blonde afro, always wearing the highest platform shoes she could find. A true disco diva and the life of every party. We shared a house together off campus and there was always a steady stream of hunky, long haired men in and out at all times of day and night. (Only twice we slept with the same guy - straight guys were much more fluid in 1972 thanks to the drugs). There is nothing - and no one - this woman wouldn't do. She was my hero!

After college we lost touch after moving to opposite coasts but we reconnected six years later. She had married, had a couple of kids, gave up drugs and drinking, and - wait for it - had become a born again christian. The person I knew and loved in college had been totally erased. Now, I too "straightened" up after college - kind of - so I don't question that part. It's that she did a complete 180 degree flip and became this conservative, straight-laced suburbanite with no trace of who she had been.

I had a coworker once, an older British bitch named Sarah, who I always was cheeky with and who I thought was an ally… cut to me chatting with her in the lunch room and announcing that my partner and I were getting married and her look shifted to this disgusted expression and she quipped “marriage is between a man and a woman”

Ultimately I don’t give a shit if that’s her opinion but it just caught me so off guard and she said it in such a cunty way. After that I hated her lol

I dread the idea of even trying to make new friends in case they turn out to be Trumpers.

I honestly wonder if it’s cultural backlash more than politics. The political and religious affiliations seem like just a front for a darker reactionary reality that allows for bigotry and disparagement of minorities. Now it is somehow OK to be a bigot as long as you act like you are oppressed for not being able to express your “opinion”. It’s the same argument that white supremists use, saying they aren’t racist, just pro white. So why is most of your white pride focused on disparaging and attacking minorities?

R76 this stuck out to me:

"It’s not as if her reactionary views could simply be put in a box, as her views are informed by her personality, which is highly negative, paranoid, and bitter."

...and describes my now ex-friend to a T. He has no fondness for anybody and flat-out refused my suggestion that we avoid the subjects where we have opposing viewpoints. I literally had to remind him how most friendships survive because both parties focus on the common ground they share and not their differences....but he would have none of it. He then began going out of his way to say his hateful conspiracy comments just to be able to paint me as closed-minded when I'd eventually ask him to stop.

....and now I'm one more person he views as the enemy. It's so weird. I guess I should have seen it coming. I guess I thought I'd be the person eventually getting fed up with him first but he flipped the script on me there.

I think isolation, fear, a desire to be "special" and view oneself as more intellectual than others and deep bitterness are the traits that lead people to these cults of racism, misogyny and paranoia.

....but he was kinda cute and I got the sense he liked being close with me on the couch. *shrugs*