I’ve just finished re-bingeing Mad Men. What did you think of the ending?

You call that “neat?”

After all the time and love I'd invested in Mad Men over the years, I was wanting a bit more of a payoff.

This series conclusion was quite good compared to many, many. many others (Lost, Sopranos, Game of Thrones, etc.).

However, a show like Mad Men that had so many wonderful payoffs over the years should have had one that that was worthy of the groundbreaking series. And we did not get that payoff.

I did like the fact that Don came up with the I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing commercial. I liked much of the conclusions for individual characters. But it just wasn't presented in a splashy package that longtime viewers deserved.

Matt Weiner was capable of much better.

I found the show to be tedious at times. I don’t think it’s something I’d ever want to revisit

I enjoyed my revisit, R3. I’d forgotten enough for it to feel relatively fresh.

But I agree with you, R2….they finished off everyone’s storylines very neatly, and probably correctly, but it all felt a bit meh. I feel a bit deflated.

Prime wants me to watch The Romanoffs next. Can anyone recommend it?

As with most long running shows the show runners got bored with it after season 3. They were just collecting a check and giving out parts for pussy.

January Jones was the star of the first two Seasons.

But she behaved so badly everyone else on the show grew to hate her.

When they wrote the "Betty Gets Fat", she refused to come out of her dressing room.

It could have been an opportunity for her to show her range - but she alienated everyone even further.

Given her limited range - that character and show was a gift to her - but she shit all over it.

ENDING: COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS

Extremely disappointing final season. Horrible finale.

Peggy on rollerskates and Bertram Cooper's ghost were the only redeeming elements of the final season.

I'm pretty sure Bert Cooper took it up the butt.

And I think he has a thing for Oriental guys too.

I finished a speed rewatch last month (I had a one month subscription to AMC+ for Kevin Can Fuck Himself) and definitely did not like it as much as I did when it originally ran. Part of that was my fault - this is not a show where you should watch four or five episodes a day. It was a bit like the tv trope where the guy has to finish the huge steak to get it for free (which they did on KCFH).

That said, the ending with Stan and Peggy was so tacked on it was like pin the tail on the donkey. It made no sense at all. They were never in love! Betty, my all-time favorite, was perfect in every scene from beginning to end. I don't understand the January Jones hate but I don't care, whenever Betty is on-screen I can't take my eyes off of her.

I like that Joan got to take care of herself but it was also bittersweet because I wanted her to also find a good guy. I guess her and Peggy had a little role-reversal at the end.

I hated Don. Not one decent redeeming quality. I'd blow Joe Hamm any day of the week (even now, bloated and balding) but I think Don Draper is one of the worst characters that's been on a prestige tv show.

R7 I loved Betty and always wondered why she started to dissapear from the show after season 3 I think? JJ is a mediocre actress but she killed it as Betty. What kind of problems did she have with the rest of the crew? I had no idea. The girl who played her daughter, Sally, Kiernan whatever seems to really really love her in real life.

Personally, I would have preferred to end the series at the Season 6 finale when Don brought his children to the whore house where he grew up. Every story was a satisfying place.

That said, if there had to be a season 7, they did a great job. The Burger Chef episode captured the experience of a lot of people growing up in that era as well as those who were shifting their focus to work over family. Megan and Don’s slow motion break up felt more real than any part of their marriage. Watching Betty graceless but noble surrender to cancer was moving, as was seeing Sally become an adult.

The finale worked for me. Don was a damaged man who finally faced his demons. He failed to overcome them. But the series ended as it began, with Don making a pitch that was a window into the future.

R5, I loved it.

I have to say that I found Don far less compelling on my second watch. First time around I was dazzled by his looks, I think but underneath that I think he was a bit dull. I’ve seen people describe him as a sociopath but he’s not that interesting.

And yes, Peggy and Stan was ridiculous. No sexual tension build up whatsoever. Declarations like that only work when there’s been some “will they/won’t they” but all of that was skipped and it showed.

Bert’s ghost was my favourite moment. I don’t know anything about Robert Morse but I’m assuming he was a song and dance man when younger because he had those dance moves down pat.

It went downhill when they introduced the Megan character.

R15 he won a Tony for the original How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying!

I loved Mad Men but I havent rewatched it since it ended except for clips here and there. I also love Bert’s song and dance farewell, one of my favorite moments of the series. I hated the ending when it originally aired, but after thinking about it for a few days I changed my mind and thought it was perfect

R12 Megan basically took her place on the show. Weiner forced that character on us to the very end.

Maybe I’m shallow but I couldn’t see past her fucking teeth.

And I’m British!

I initially watched Mad Men to see if they got the period right (they didn't), but enjoyed it nonetheless.

[quote]I'm pretty sure Bert Cooper took it up the butt.

Dearest, Bert Cooper was played by the indefatigable musical comedy star BOBBY MORSE!

How did they get the period wrong, R21?

[quote]I loved Betty and always wondered why she started to disappear from the show after season 3 I think? JJ is a mediocre actress but she killed it as Betty.

Don was the center of the show. Don and Betty divorced after season 3. With Betty no longer in Don's orbit, it took more effort to come up with story for her. The fact she got as much story as she did in the final four seasons says a lot about the importance of the character. But Weiner also clearly got tired of trying.

Meanwhile, he put Meghan in Don's orbit and began giving her more and more story. Meghan wasn't as complex a character as Betty. But she did represent the 60s free love type of character.

[quote] I don’t know anything about Robert Morse but I’m assuming he was a song and dance man when younger

FIVE Tony nominations. Two wins.

That’s great, R24. Thanks.

[quote]Meanwhile, he put Meghan in Don's orbit and began giving her more and more story.

People -including those at the Datalounge - HATED Megan and pinnnnnned away for pretty Betty. It was so juvenile here, like listening to a hoard of house fraus whining over Jesse Brewer of General Hospital in 1969.

No hammaconda cock reveal.

Very disappointed.

I loved the show, and loved most of the last season, but like several other shows I've watched (Downton Abbey comes to mind) a huge chunk of the middle seasons could have been cut.

They stretched out the final season too long. But it had some glorious bits. Peggy doing the Burger Chef presentation was such a perfect bookend to Don and "Carousel."

I didn't hate Megan per se. She was the exact kind of woman Don would look for and marry after Betty. She was very much the New Sexy Wife, second wife material. But she was on for way too long.

Matt Weiner just had quirky, weird blind spots (no Matt, no one wants to see your ugly kid.)

Betty Draper couldn't have been that hated, she had the two finest pieces of ass on the show, Don Draper and Henry Francis.

[quote]I loved Mad Men but I havent rewatched it since it ended except for clips here and there.

Same. I watched Mad Men religiously during its original run, but have had no desire to revisit it since. Not even a random episode.

My main gripe with the show was that there was too much of Don's personal life and not enough of the agency. The various shenanigans at Sterling Cooper were the best part of the show. Meghan got WAY too much attention, she should've been a featured character and not a main character but Weiner obviously had a hard-on for her.

Fuck yes…I forgot about Glenn. Nothing about that character made sense. He couldn’t act, had no reason to be in the show and will go down in history as Weiner’s son who looks like a serial killer. Nice thing to do to your kid.

Seeing Jay R Ferguson in a bulgy pair of tighty whities was Emmy winning material

Glenn's initial appearance was to show how lonely and attention starved Betty was that she encouraged a 10 year old's attention. That's what being cooped up in suburbia will do to you, as Betty so painfully illustrated. That's how the second wave of feminism got going -- women realizing they wanted/needed more than just being a housewife.

Not sure why Glenn was brought in for subsequent episodes. Likely because he was Weiner's son. But I did like Glenn's final appearance where he was getting ready to leave for Vietnam.

I have seen each episode at least twice, some three times.

[quote]Meghan got WAY too much attention,

Not really, R30, because the show revolved around Don and his life and sex habits. The generation gap thing was a good point between Don and Megan, a relevant topic. The stupidity about Megan apologizing for her teeth - which were perfectly normal for the times - was sexist and ridiculous. Otherwise, I agree with you that there was not enough agency drama, that was the part I liked about the show best.

I haven’t watched it again since it ended, but I thought the finale was beautifully done. Loved Peggy’s send-off in particular. Her character arc throughout the series was spectacular. You just know that she went on to have a brilliant career and was one of those tough old New York broads who died at her desk in her 80s, cigarette in hand.

[quote]They stretched out the final season too long

The final two seasons was actually one that was split into two - 7 episodes each instead of 14. That had an affect on the cohesiveness of the story.

R33, this was in Ossining, NY, an hour north of NYC. Hardly "cooped up in suburbia," it's a train ride to the big city. I know because I grew up in Westchester Cty in the 1960s.

Older Glenn was shocking to me because he was anorexic. Anorexic bad actor with bad lines.

We've watched the series more than once, it's a go-to for us when we can't decide what else to watch. The mood, setting, attitudes of the characters, and situations are so strong I don't necessarily care about the through line logic. A lot of the series was ambiguous so I didn't mind that the final episodes actually tied off cleanly. EXCEPT for Peggy and Stan, that strained credulity. Best show ever, IMO, because unlike the Sopranos or Breaking Bad I don't feel dirty after watching it.

Never understood the love for shit like this and The Sopranos.

At least with Breaking Bad and The Wire, you got sustained writing.

Breaking Bad was too limited.

[quote] this was in Ossining, NY, an hour north of NYC. Hardly "cooped up in suburbia," it's a train ride to the big city.

r37 If that's not suburbia, then how do you define suburbia.

R41, the key phase is COOPED UP in suburbia, not merely suburbia, darling.

I tried a couple of times to get into Breaking Bad, but I just never could. I keep saying I’m going to try The Wire one day.

[quote] I tried a couple of times to get into Breaking Bad, but I just never could.

It's a slow burning fuse. I only got through season one because it was on after Mad Men and nothing better was on Sunday night. It was worth it though.

I couldn't get into Breaking Bad or The Wire either. I don't like depressing shows about poor people and drug addicts.

As Don's and Betty's daughter she should be on her third husband by this point

I'm really surprised that Joan is not more popular on DL.

I wish I had known of Datalounge's existence when the Joan-sleeping-with-Jaguar storyline aired.

I've always wondered if that story was Matthew Weiner's little dig at Weinstein? Even the actor who played the Jaguar exec was reminiscent of Weinstein in body size and demeanor -- and this was a few years before #metoo. Maybe it was just a coincidence.

In regards to Joan, I thought it was quite a shocking change of course for a major character on a TV show.

i thought i posted this earlier, but i must not have hit "post" twice.

I've watched Mad Men about twice more since original airing and liked it. I especially liked the way it portrayed such old fashioned, sexist, racist views...and just politically incorrect in general.

One of my favorite episodes is the "picnic" one where they go out to the country for their picnic (pre-divorce) and when done, shake off their picnic blanket leaving all their trash behind. It may have been a little exaggerated, but let's face it...people of that time period didn't give a shit about the environment or leaving trash wherever. Same with the comments to the women at the office and expectation of "favors" to get a leg up.

I like that "the Petes" decided to leave NY on their jet and start a new life somewhere more low key. Joan and Peggy seemed to do well professionally. I think the weakest point for me was Don at the retreat. But the next time i re-watch it, i'll see what i think. I come up with a different answer each time. it will be awhile though, i last re-watched it in 2019.

R48 I don’t know if it’s the same episode, but I love the scene where Sally and Bobby are playing space men and Sally is wearing the dry cleaning bag over her head as a spacesuit and Betty’s about to blow up and scream at her, not because she’ll suffocate her damn self, but because she better not have messed up her good dress that was in there. More likely that episode, and many other times, are when Betty is sitting in the front seat of the car with Bobby on her lap and no seatbelt.

It wasn’t the worst ending ever, but it felt underwhelming. I think the ending of the series should have been the scene where Don & his kids are standing in front of the dilapidated ruin of the whorehouse where he was raised, and Don decides to tell them about his childhood.

[quote] shake off their picnic blanket leaving all their trash behind. It may have been a little exaggerated,

Neither the littering nor the plastic bag were exaggerated. I laughed at loud at each

Candy cigarettes were a big hit!

I wanted so much better for Sally. You just knew she was going to end up helping to raise her little brother instead of going out and exploring the world because without her he wouldn't have anyone.

Stan/Peggy was Mad Men's one bit of fan service. Fans wanted them together and Weiner gave in, but, fuck, that scene is *awkward*. Just awful. My favorite Peggy scenes in the last season are the roller skates and her walking in hung over with the tentacle porn under her arm.

Stan was a major woof/yum! Peggy at least deserved a good old fashioned throw down fuck from that furry man! If they didn't get together after that, fine but it was a nice way to fuck herself out of the series lol besides the obvious great job she was about to embark upon :)

Throw down fuck, like rape???

Speaking of rape, do you think that Joan's husband raped her in Don's office? He force fucked her against her will and she submitted rather than fight back and cause a scene at work. So yes it's rape but it's her husband and she didn't leave him over it. Great scene.

[quote] Stan was a major woof/yum!

One of the saddest lines ever posted on datalounge

YES, R57, Joan was raped in that scene by her shithead husband. How could you not know that? The scene generated much discussion here at the DL after it was first shown. The scene made me squirm with distaste.

Meghan's fucking ginormous CHOPPERS!

My favorite Mad Men scene ever, linked below.

OP, the Stan/Peggy attraction had been brewing ever since his first appearance on the show.

This thread blows me away.

I can't comment on the myriad Golden Girls threads as that was long before my time.

But I watched Mad Men faithfully when it was on and was a big fan.

Still, I had to google everything but the Don at the ashram and Peggy dying scenes. Was so long ago and just not all that memorable. The whole Peggy-Stan thing in particular.

You all have great memories.

The first time Peggy exerts her power

Something weird. Roger's last name is STERLING as in sterling silver. He met Don when he was a furrier. Jewelry + fur usually = Jewish. But Roger Sterling isn't Jewish...or were the writers playing games here?

[quote] I have seen each episode at least twice, some three times.

Thank you for your input.

I was addicted to Mad Men at the time, but have never really thought about it since.

Mad Men, like Downton Abbey, just did not click for me. I watched both for about a season because there was so much buzz and consensus that they were great shows. Both of them bored me. I just couldn't engage. I can't imagine bingeing on Mad Men.

OK, at least I'm not alone.

The Joan rape situation- they weren't married yet, and Greg realized as she paraded him around the office that she'd fucked the bearded fat guy as well as Roger, maybe others, and he was pissed. I assume she was waiting for the wedding, and he unceremoniously forced her to fuck on the floor of someone else's office- where she was very uncomfortable and humiliated, etc, as revenge. If I recall correctly.

[quote]Meghan's fucking ginormous CHOPPERS!

As I recall, she was collectively referred to here on the original Mad Men threads as TEEFS.

It’s hard to imagine we are REMINISCING about Mad Men threads. It seems like it was only a week ago.

Christ, I’m old.

I was on DL during Mad Men and the threads could be hilarious when the eldergays started sniping about how certain things conflicted with their own memories of the 60s. And by certain things I mean really petty stuff like a song that wasn't released until a week or two after the events of the show, or various products like cigarette brands and cleaning supplies that apparently didn't have the correct packaging for the specific year. It was nuts!

LOL R72

I was not on DL back then but nothing you said surprises me in the least.

The most fascinating thing about DL is just how deeply entrenched so many eldergays are in the past, how vividly they remember events, movies and TV shows from 50 or 60 years ago.

I was hoping up to the end that we’d see Sal again. I thought it was really shitty of Weiner to bring back so many other characters, but never Sal.

I loved Betty, Peggy, and Joan. I can’t really decide who was my favorite.

It really is amazing r73. The most minute details are stored and recalled instantly.

The eldergays had a field day with Mad Men. Never mind that most of them were growing up working-class in Flyoverstan at the time, but they were experts on what Manhattanite sophisticates were doing. Lots of "that wasn't right for the period!" discussions over things that most people wouldn't even notice.

Two examples I can remember are some cleaning product Betty used that either wasn't on the market yet or didn't have the right packaging for May of 1965 or whenever the episode took place. Another was a certain cigarette brand (can't recall which one) that some of the elders INSISTED nobody who was "sophisticated" in Manhattan in August of 1966 (or whenever) would have smoked, because that cigarette brand was for "lower class" people in the outer boroughs.

Again, it was Peak Eldergay.

Thank you R75

That made my day. So easy to imagine.

(And glad that someone else here is on the same wavelength!!)

I watched about six episodes of this show before I quit. I thought everyone, except Don’s brother, were assholes.

Don was handsome as hell, though.

Two words: Norwegian Catholic

You rang, R28?

Damn, I have an eye appointment in 2 weeks!

I meant R78!

[quote]And by certain things I mean really petty stuff like a song that wasn't released until a week or two after the events of the show, or various products

Betty gets it on the washing machine by the repair man in a fantasy, and they played a Stan Getz/Astrid Gilberto song that came out THREE YEARS LATER. Don turns down a waitress in a Chinese restaurant while they play the record Sukiyaki in JAPANESE in the background. That's not petty, R72, that's making up a fake "reality. "

Don and Roger drink sodas in front of a machine that has a large DR PEPPER sign on it in the mid-sixties. We didn't get Dr Pepper in New York until 1970. That's called PRODUCT PLACEMENT, and it shits.

I'll see your Norwegian Catholic r78 and raise you Bay Ridge Norwegian Catholic.

Below is an archived thread on the matter.

[quote]Don and Roger drink sodas in front of a machine that has a large DR PEPPER sign on it in the mid-sixties. We didn't get Dr Pepper in New York until 1970.

Something like that is so specific and irrelevant as to be annoying when pointed out.

I wanted Don to have a heart attack and die, while fucking his pregnant niece, Stephanie at that Hippie retreat.

[quote]Something like that is so specific and irrelevant as to be annoying when pointed out.

r83 Mad Men got so much period detail right that many of us commented on how good the props department was. The few times it got it wrong, it really, really stood out to people who lived through the time.

The 60s were before my time, but if a show set in the 90s put a certain brand of soda that didn't come out until three years later onscreen I would not even catch it. Who the fuck remembers shit like this?

If you endured six months of advertising, R86, you'd remember.

But we did R87

On TV and by the late 90s, online.

And I wouldn't remember

There were quite a few sinister moments on that show. The little neighbor kid Glenn. The old black lady who gets into the apartment and convinces Sally that she’s an old nanny of theirs. When Meghan goes out to LA to be an actress, I was convinced that she was going to be killed by the Manson Family (I’m not the only one who thought that!).

Betty dying made me incredibly sad. It was ducking brilliant.

I’m so glad to discover the Norwegian Catholic thread, that’s such soothing bedtime reading.

Like the poster up thread, I didn’t really connect with the show except with a couple storylines/characters. Most of the ad agency characters didn’t work for me except Duck. I knew Duck. I worked with Duck, an alcoholic accounts guy with a radio voice who’s bounced around several agencies. The most realistic ad agency scene was the party in which Meredith got on the riding lawnmower and drove over the client’s foot before crashing into the wall. That was very believable to me. My favorite scenes were when Don went back to California to be with the real (dead) Don’s wife and he fell asleep on her sofa. That’s the only time he seemed real. I liked Pete’s wife, Trudy. Her character could’ve been annoying but she wasn’t.

If I wanted to see two Negroes fight, I’d throw a dollar bill out my window.

That one’s so pushy.

I guess that’s what it takes.

(Shakes head.)

[quote]And I wouldn't remember

Dementia?

I also loved the scene where Peggy let’s the black secretary crash at her apartment because the riots in the black neighborhood make it impossible for the secretary to go home. And then Peggy realizes she’s leaving her purse in the same room as the black woman. There’s a moment where the secretary sees Peggy spot her purse and hesitate. Will Peggy leave the purse and trust that the other woman won’t steal from it? Will Peggy find an excuse to snatch it up and bring it to her bedroom where it’ll be “safe”.

There were some real "out of left field" moments, like the time Betty offered to take the kids out on a drive, so Henry could fuck Sally's friend, 14 year old violin protege Sandy. Then, she went on to suggest she would be willing to hold her down while Henry "raped her".

I absolutely loved Betty in Roma! She was beyond fabulous.

Betty was crazy and fabulous. I forgot about that scene r96 and when she was in Rome she was perfection.

The season when Don has the affair with downstairs neighbor was boring and tedious. I lose interest when that season is next

Not great, Bob!

I loved Pete. Until he pimped out Joan. I actually felt physically ill the day after that episode aired.

Yeah, for me the show changed when they pimped out Joan. Roger, Pete, all of them (except Don). So odious.

I just can't understand how anyone could drink that much bourbon... At work!

Yeah, the drinking was crazy. I would've been rolling on the floor if I tried to drink as much as they did.

[quote] The most realistic ad agency scene was the party in which Meredith got on the riding lawnmower and drove over the client’s foot

That wasn’t Meredith, it was switchboard operator Lois Sadler, played by Christa Flanagan.

[quote] This series conclusion was quite good compared to many, many. many others (Lost, Sopranos, Game of Thrones, etc.).

It was excellent. The ending to the Sopranos was flat out lazy

It was really dumb that they expanded Meredith’s part in the last season or so. She worked better as just having a daffy line here and there. She was in one of my favorite MM scenes ever though:

R 101, no one "pimped out" Joan. Pete let her know of the offer she was given, no strings attached she said "Fuck no, then did some thinking and said "Fuck yes" on her terms. And I don't think she ever regretted it. Don wanted nothing to do with it either and pleaded with her not to go through with it. Roger standing by it was a bummer though. that's when I knew they were never meant to be.

My least favorite paramour was the waitress. She was too ordinary. I didn't buy that Don would fall so hard for her.

The waitress was basically a parody of on of Don's doomed love interest. I am glad he did not end up with her. Though I also hated the teacher in S3. Bobbie Barrett will always be my fave.

I think the waitress was meant to illustrate Don’s slow descent into… whatever that was. Midlife crisis, nervous breakdown, etc.

R108, so ... Hermès Kelly bags all over the floor in front of Weiner there. He is family?

R111, I legit thought Weiner was gay when I heard him speak. Looks like he is just an effeminate hetero though.

"The Flood" was my favorite episode. It's the episode taking place on the day of the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King. The use of Paul Mariat's, "Love Is Blue" at the closing credits was brilliant.

Season 5 is my favorite season. It’s so weird and there’s such a sense of foreboding.

The foreboding never really turned into anything, as it turns out.

[quote] My least favorite paramour was the waitress

Never underestimate the seductive power of a waitress. They know things.

John Slattery as Roger Sterling...fuck is he hot. I also had a crush on the younger fat one...Harry Crane, portrayed by Rich Sommer. It's okay...I'm weird like that.

And while it is Lou Eyrich's version of the period (as opposed to actual period research), I like to count my purchase of the series as "research". The 60s are my favorite decade of the Twentieth Century, regarding style. So it was really fun to see how one very talented person designed it.

R114, I fucking hated Season 5. Some decent stand alone episodes but Don was a neutered love puppy and Mary Sue Megan ate the show. Also hated the Joan sleeps with jaguar story, seemed to melodramatic and cliche for the show. And Fat Betty. Blegh. . Seasons 2-4 was the best the show ever was.

The waitress bit was sooo unbelievable I turned it off.

It was rather a cold finale, except for Don's phone call to Betty and the musical montage with the sentimental music near the very end.

I think a major problem is that Don is islanded off in California away from the other cast, so there's no real interaction between them. Calling the episode "Person to Person" as a clever reference to the telephone doesn't mitigate the issue.

Instead, we get a long monologue from a character we've never met before that's supposed to provide a catharsis for Don. It just didn't work for me.

The finale was definitely “off.”

But so is real life.

Another overhyped "classic" like The Sopranos that ends up being about absolutely nothing. Some nice acting and memorable moments, but otherwise a waste of time.

I don't understand why the waitress would get it against a wall and consider it good sex. It looks more like rape.

I always thought the waitress represented his whore mom who died giving birth to him. He loved trashy brunettes

I believe the last season was filming while Jon Hamm was completely off the wagon. I think he was in rehab at one point. So I wonder if the last few episodes were rewritten deliberately having Hamm away from the other actors because he possibly wasn't available during the actual shoot time. Meaning he had to be filmed separately. His last scene with any regular cast member was the boardroom scene at the new agency as he walked out in the middle of a meeting. I think that was the 4th to last episode.

Interesting theory about Hamm but there have been enough years for that to be leaked and discussed if true.

The Don story in the end was off, though I liked the ending where he basically realized the only place he belonged and was needed was in advertising. I like those ambiguously happy/sad endings. I enjoyed everything else about the end though. Well other than Betty fucking dying. Thats was really cruel of Weiner. His mommy issues couldn't help but rear their ugly heads, Thank god for Stan and Peggy finally getting together.

R121, watch Mad Men for the best character driven writting tv has ever seen.

I felt so terrible for Sally. That poor kid just couldn’t catch a break.

This was the most BRILLIANT scene in the whole series!!

If HBO had originally picked up the series, do you think we would have gotten better glimpses of Jon Hamm's ham roll?

I don't think there'd be full frontal but there would be some Hamm bush at some point along with some serious package action. Sadly, the trade off would most likely have been LOTS of pendulous titty and unmowed snatch shots.

R126 Regarding Betty's "death" - (keep in mind, she was still alive in the final episode. Plus the way the show skipped weeks and sometimes months ahead of time between episodes, many thought the final episode would have taken place after her funeral) - I saw in interview with Mathew Weiner where he claimed he always planned for Betty to get lung cancer. Someone had to. If you go back to the beginning, clues were dropped all along the way: we learn Betty's mother died at a young age, it's assumed it was from cancer; in season 5, Betty has her own cancer scare. Plus, we almost never see her not smoking a cigarette.

R127-Yes ths is true. She was shown to be smoking significantly more than the others too. Some even say the prevalent song of S3 "Bye bye Birdie" was a early clue. *Still painful.

To understand what draws Don to Diana the waitress, one need to follow the history of Don’s romantic liaisons.

Mad Men is about the way people define themselves from the outside – getting things not because you actually need them, but rather because they’ll make you feel good about yourself – this is what advertising is all about – getting you to acquire stuff to calm, however briefly, that constant itch of dissatisfaction, or so Don told us on the pilot. And this is why Don constantly looks for new women – not for sex, not really for love but as a tool for redefining himself. Lacking a solid, dependable sense of self, by being romantically involved with a person, he inhabits what he believes to be the essence of them, and he tends to go for people who represent a certain abstract notion he’s striving for at the time he hooks up with them.

With Betty, obviously, he got that sense of stability, familial as well as social. With Midge it was about being free spirited and creative. Rachel offered the alluring sense of exotic otherness he could project on his own misfit state. Joy rootless nihilism was an alternative possibility for him to toy with at a time he was not sure his normative, middle class realm was valid anymore. Susan idealism and commitment to others, ironically, attracted him at a time he was supposed to be a good family man. Even Sylvia, with her close to home, guilt ridden realness was a reflection of the way Don was reconnecting with the harshness of his personal history.

And as for Megan - Faye offered him a grounded, mature grasp and understanding of his own very particular social and professional world – and he declined it for what Megan seemed to be all about – wide eyed admiration of him and a romantic glorification of what “you and Peggy are doing”. With her it was not only about a fresh start as a married couple but also a bright future as a creative team. Her walking away from advertising was a shocking blow to the core of his professional self, and since that was always a fundamental part of his fabricated persona, a huge hit on his grasp of who he is.

Don meets Diana when he’s in a very dark place of a sense of total displacement, of being in a state of no correlation between the glossy, successful image he projects and inner feeling of disassociation. And in her he sees a fellow disassociated soul – unrooted and lost, and he believes that by rescuing her he’ll achieve some kind of self-salvation.

(Now – Bobbie. She doesn’t fit in, doesn’t she? But that’s because that time it wasn’t her being picked by Don but rather him being Don-Drapered by her. It was quite a reality check in too many ways for him (as well as for Betty), and it certainly was an affair to remember, as we found out when he quoted Bobbie (the infamous “being bad/being good” one) to Joan when they were in the bar on Christmas Waltz).

ps – in a way, the most grounded, disillusioned relationship Don ever had was with Candace’ the friendly prostitute he was regularly hooking up with on season 4. Not surprising, in retrospect, knowing what we learned later about Don’s upbringing.

[quote]I believe the last season was filming while Jon Hamm was completely off the wagon.

Whatever was happening, he was FAT in keeping with his advancing age. They should have let him get a little grey too.

Poor Sal. All he had to do was put out for hot sleaze bag Lee Garner, Jr. and he wouldn’t have been fired.

Rachel and Faye were both too good for Don IMO. Lee Garner Jr is totally the type of guy I would have hooked up with back in the day then hated myself for it.

I fucking HATED Peggy, even before I knew she was played by a clam affiliate. I really, really hated her visually, so I never could tell if she could act. I guess she can, as she is in everything these days.

[R133] Thank you, that was insightful.

Rachel and Faye were by far my favorites of Don’s women. They seemed to be the most realistic. I felt sad for each of them when they parted ways with Don and really hated that Rachel died so young.

The perfect ending of the series should have been when Don raced off in a sports car in the desert, embracing a new life as Dick Whitman.

Those last 45 minutes only told us things we already knew. But, did Betty lose all her money and in addition to cancer, now had to depend on Sally washing the dishes? The idea that Don Draper was in any way capable of coming up with that Coke - I'd like to teach the world commercial was beyond ludicrous.

I thought there should have been an emotional connection Don just couldn't break with Betty. Betty's in trouble, Betty is sick, she calls Don. Don says he'll be there, and drives like a maniac cross country and crashes the car. We assume he's dead. They need to leave his fate ambiguous so people can make up what really happens to him.

I agree with R141 that the Coke commercial ending is dumb and ridiculous.

[quote]I agree with [R141] that the Coke commercial ending is dumb and ridiculous.

The I'd Like to Teach The World to Sing Coca Cola commercial is the most famous commercial of all time. One that has been hailed as genius and captured the zeitgeist perfectly.

Show has been presenting Don as a maverick who came up with inventive commercial campaigns that were wildly successful. Very appropriate and true to character that the show would pose it that Don came up with that Coke commercial.

Agreed, R143. The show always presented Don as an ingenious creative director. That was the entire reason his excesses - drinking, disappearing for weeks on end - were tolerated. He delivered where it counted and was the agency's golden boy.

It's entirely plausible that within the universe of MM, Don invented that iconic Coke ad.

Instead of Pete going off on a Learjet to become a bigshot aviation executive I'd have liked to have seen several more characters again beat him up.

I wanted to see Don rip Pete's pants off, bend him over his desk, and hate-fuck the hell out of that little bastard.

"You're gonna take my big cock like a champ until I cum in you, you little BITCH!"

[quote]I'd Like to Teach The World to Sing Coca Cola commercial is the most famous commercial of all time.

That's true. And I HATED IT, much preferred the "Things go Better with Coke" commercials that preceded it.

Good writeup R133

I always think of what Faye said about Don - that he likes beginnings of things. I have a few people in my life who resemble that remark.

[quote] And I HATED IT,

I agree, but Pepsi topped them all.

Saying that Don Draper created the Coke ad cheapens the legacy of the real commercial as it implies that it must have been a cynical and ironic cash grab without any emotion behind it

[quote]implies that it must have been a cynical and ironic cash grab without any emotion behind it

Welcome to the world of advertising.

R150, THAT'S WHAT THE EMMYS FOR!

Go shit in the ocean!

I have great sympathy for Don. His childhood was tragic. But he got chance after chance despite bring a disaster both professionally and in his personal life. Only a good- looking white man would get so many chances.

Ben Affleck is the modern Don Draper

I would have loved if they had spun off Sally. They could have had her run away to San Francisco and live a life as a flower-child. Create new characters and build a whole show around her. One of the joys of Mad Men for me was watching this little girl who lisped grow and emerge into a pretty decent actress. I wonder if Matt Weiner had any idea when he cast the 9-year old that he hit pay-dirt. Of course, he wasn't so lucky with his selection(s) of Bobbys.

[quote] Something weird. Roger's last name is STERLING as in sterling silver. He met Don when he was a furrier. Jewelry + fur usually = Jewish. But Roger Sterling isn't Jewish...or were the writers playing games here?

You're misremembering. Don and Roger met when Don was working for a furrier--Roger came in to buy a fur coat as his first big gift for Joan, whom he had just started fucking. Don was intrigued because the furrier (whom we never see) had let Don do advertising for him, and Don had ambitions of entering the field, so he tried to get a job with Roger. He didn't, but he went out with Roger and got him drunk enough to black out. The next day Don went to Sterling Cooper's offices pretending that Roger had hired him and just couldn't remember it, and Roger believed him.

Roger never worked at or as a furrier--his father was the founder of Sterling Cooper with Bert Cooper, and so he was born with a (Sterling) silver spoon in his mouth. Although his second wife Jane was Jewish, Roger himself is 100% WASP.

R156 Isn’t Sabrina the Teenage Witch that spin off? Don’s long lost unknown sisters were witches and took Sally in and taught her how to be powerful and take no shit.

Sally would have been too young to be a flower child, and that movement was long gone anyway by 1970, the year the show ended.

However, Sally as a '70s-era, coke-snorting, Studio 54 habitué would have been worth watching.

R159 is correct. I'm Sally's age.

People saying Peggy and Stan was tacked on have ADD or something. I wanted them together since probably their second episode and noticed the slow build over the seasons. No sexual tension? Joey Baird saying "You love her" about Peggy to Stan n the beginning? Them snipping at each other and working together naked? Their kiss and "moment" in Season 6? When he wouldn't go over to her house to kill the rat because he was with his girlfriend? The jealousy between Peggy and Pima in S7? Him being the only person she confessed about her kid to...A show on Mad Men just isn't going to hit you over the head with it but trust that it was there. I will agree though that how they handled it was hokey. But no Stan and Peggy did not come oput of left field. Jfc.

I agree about what was said about Megan though. I think we were supposed to love her because she was naive and uncomplicated but honestly she just seemed like a shallow, one dimensional Mary Sue and the focus on her and her relationship with Don was what started the quality to slump on the show (it was still a great show but not like it was seasons 1-4).

I enjoyed season 4 the best. The combo of the fresh, new sets, the mid-60s styles (which I prefer to what came before and after) and the focus on Don as a single man was fascinating.

I always preferred Don single and wish Weiner & company would have let us bask in that a while longer.