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Wuhan scientists planned to release coronaviruses into cave bats 18 months before outbreak

Wuhan scientists were planning to release enhanced airborne coronaviruses into Chinese bat populations to inoculate them against diseases that could jump to humans, leaked grant proposals dating from 2018 show.

New documents show that just 18 months before the first Covid-19 cases appeared, researchers had submitted plans to release skin-penetrating nanoparticles containing “novel chimeric spike proteins” of bat coronaviruses into cave bats in Yunnan, China.

They also planned to create chimeric viruses, genetically enhanced to infect humans more easily, and requested $14million from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (Darpa) to fund the work.

Papers, confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration, show they were hoping to introduce “human-specific cleavage sites” to bat coronaviruses which would make it easier for the virus to enter human cells.

When Covid-19 was first genetically sequenced, scientists were puzzled about how the virus had evolved such a human-specific adaptation at the cleavage site on the spike protein, which is the reason it is so infectious.

The documents were released by Drastic, the web-based investigations team set up by scientists from across the world to look into the origins of Covid-19.

In a statement, Drastic said: “Given that we find in this proposal a discussion of the planned introduction of human-specific cleavage sites, a review by the wider scientific community of the plausibility of artificial insertion is warranted.”

The proposal also included plans to mix high-risk natural coronavirus strains with more infectious but less dangerous varieties.

The bid was submitted by British zoologist Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance, the US-based organisation, which has worked closely with the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) researching bat coronaviruses.

Team members included Dr Shi Zhengli, the WIV researcher dubbed “bat woman”, pictured below, as well as US researchers from the University of North Carolina and the United States Geological Survey National Wildlife Health Centre.

Darpa refused to fund the work, saying: “It is clear that the proposed project led by Peter Daszak could have put local communities at risk”, and warned that the team had not properly considered the dangers of enhancing the virus (gain of function research) or releasing a vaccine by air.

Grant documents show that the team also had some concerns about the vaccine programme and said they would “conduct educational outreach … so that there is a public understanding of what we are doing and why we are doing it, particularly because of the practice of bat-consumption in the region”.

Angus Dalgleish, Professor of Oncology at St Georges, University of London, who struggled to get work published showing that the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) had been carrying out “gain of function” work for years before the pandemic, said the research may have gone ahead even without the funding.

“This is clearly a gain of function, engineering the cleavage site and polishing the new viruses to enhance human cell infectibility in more than one cell line,” he said.

Daszak was also behind a letter published in The Lancet last year which effectively shut down scientific debate into the origins of Covid-19.

Viscount Ridley, who has co-authored a book on the origin of Covid-19, due for release in November, and who has frequently called for a further investigation into what caused the pandemic in the House of Lords, said: “For more than a year I tried repeatedly to ask questions of Peter Daszak with no response.

“Now it turns out he had authored this vital piece of information about virus work in Wuhan but refused to share it with the world. I am furious. So should the world be.

“Peter Daszak and the EcoHealth Alliance (EHA) proposed injecting deadly chimeric bat coronaviruses collected by the Wuhan Institute of Virology into humanised and ‘batified’ mice, and much, much more.”

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by Anonymousreply 97June 26, 2023 5:08 PM

A Covid-19 researcher from the World Health Organisation (WHO), who wished to remain anonymous, said it was alarming that the grant proposal included plans to enhance the more deadly disease of Middle-East Respiratory Syndrome (Mers).

“The scary part is they were making infectious chimeric Mers viruses,” the source said.

“These viruses have a fatality rate over 30 per cent, which is at least an order of magnitude more deadly than Sars-CoV-2.

“If one of their receptor replacements made Mers spread similarly, while maintaining its lethality, this pandemic would be nearly apocalyptic.”

EcoHealth Alliance and the Wuhan Institute of Virology have been aproached for comment.

by Anonymousreply 1September 21, 2021 7:09 PM

Can we just fucking nuke those cunts?

by Anonymousreply 2September 21, 2021 7:11 PM

I'm with you, R2.

Why in the FUCK would they do this?

Goddamned motherfucking cunts.

by Anonymousreply 3September 21, 2021 7:13 PM

The world must sue them, and divide the now-bankrupt country amongst decent nations as restitution.

by Anonymousreply 4September 21, 2021 7:15 PM

And WE continue to buy everything from them.

by Anonymousreply 5September 21, 2021 7:16 PM

"Papers, confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration,"

Trump?

by Anonymousreply 6September 21, 2021 7:16 PM

[quote] Papers, [bold]confirmed as genuine[/bold] by a former member of the Trump administration, show they were hoping to introduce “human-specific cleavage sites” to bat coronaviruses which would make it easier for the virus to enter human cells.

The information was confirmed.

by Anonymousreply 7September 21, 2021 7:19 PM

The media should be a making a BIG deal all of this but they're not.

And then they wonder why people are suspicious and why conspiracy theories take hold...

by Anonymousreply 8September 21, 2021 7:20 PM

^ should read: "...about all of this..."

by Anonymousreply 9September 21, 2021 7:21 PM

The information was confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration. That's what the article says, and that's when I stopped reading.

by Anonymousreply 10September 21, 2021 7:22 PM

This isn't just some random accusations.

This is VERY SPECIFIC information about what their scientists were doing, and for what purpose.

It's outrageous that the world has not taken action against them.

Millions of lives lost and billions of people around the world have been affected by their negligence.

I agree that those people should be taken to a world court and PUNISHED.

by Anonymousreply 11September 21, 2021 7:23 PM

I think some of you are confusing coronaviruses with Covid-19 which happens to be ONE SPECIFIC coronavirus.

by Anonymousreply 12September 21, 2021 7:24 PM

Oh my god. This is it.

All the people Daszak has tried, often successfully, to smear as lunatics, for daring to question him and his work with the WIV. They should sue him.

We need an immediate draft of a film about this villain.

Casting starts in 6 weeks. Bring your masks.

by Anonymousreply 13September 21, 2021 7:24 PM

Yeah, I'm going to need a lot more proof than "confirmed by a former Trump" moron. Nothing they say can be taken as fact or proof of anything. 30,000+ lies and that's just Donald.

We'll wait and see if any real evidence is forthcoming.

by Anonymousreply 14September 21, 2021 7:25 PM

[quote] The information was confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration. That's what the article says, and that's when I stopped reading.

You're an idiot. Fauci was a member of the Trump administration.

by Anonymousreply 15September 21, 2021 7:26 PM

FUCK CHINA.

They are a global threat.

We need to isolate them. Treat them as pariahs.

They can no longer be a part of the global community, because they are out to destroy humanity.

by Anonymousreply 16September 21, 2021 7:26 PM

More award winning journalism from the CIA/FLG cult.

by Anonymousreply 17September 21, 2021 7:26 PM

The naysayers here are obviously posting from Peking.

They're trying to do damage control. Obviously.

by Anonymousreply 18September 21, 2021 7:27 PM

Wait and see, there's no point in taking some deplorables word for for it when they lied about Covid all the time.

by Anonymousreply 19September 21, 2021 7:28 PM

R16 Look at your own country's foolish decision to let a virus kill your own people to achieve "herd immunity" first.

by Anonymousreply 20September 21, 2021 7:28 PM

[quote] Papers, confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration

I stopped reading there.

by Anonymousreply 21September 21, 2021 7:29 PM

[quote] I think some of you are confusing coronaviruses with Covid-19 which happens to be ONE SPECIFIC coronavirus.

We're not confusing anything. Covid-19 is the disease. SARS CoV-2 is the virus.

Even more upsetting is the MERS shit.

Looks like we found the vector: Peter Daszak.

by Anonymousreply 22September 21, 2021 7:29 PM

R16 Western idiocy is the only global threat.

by Anonymousreply 23September 21, 2021 7:29 PM

Fuck you, Ling Ling R20.

Disgusting, disease spreading cunts.

by Anonymousreply 24September 21, 2021 7:29 PM

R15, where does it say that FAUCI is that one sane member of the Trump administration who confirmed it? I need more than a conservative paper citing a member of the most incompetent administration. Once they reveal who that member is, I will be willing to read this article.

by Anonymousreply 25September 21, 2021 7:29 PM

[quote] You're an idiot. Fauci was a member of the Trump administration.

Fauci invested in the lab.

by Anonymousreply 26September 21, 2021 7:29 PM

Don't forget, these cunts have an annual dog meat festival where tens of thousands of dogs are slaughtered and consumed!!!!

They should be nuked just for that!!!

by Anonymousreply 27September 21, 2021 7:31 PM

Western countries are dumber than a virus.

by Anonymousreply 28September 21, 2021 7:31 PM

[quote] Papers, confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration, show...

= Absolutely no credibility in this story

by Anonymousreply 29September 21, 2021 7:37 PM

I wish these right winger Trump loving assholes would hurry up and die already.

Go to a crowded ball game! A concert! A packed auto show! C'mon, be brave!

by Anonymousreply 30September 21, 2021 7:41 PM

As always, keen policy insights from the DL community.

by Anonymousreply 31September 21, 2021 8:01 PM

[quote] The media should be a making a BIG deal all of this but they're not. And then they wonder why people are suspicious and why conspiracy theories take hold...

Unless you have someone trustworthy go on the record and confirm this, THIS is a conspiracy theory. The media tries to actually confirm accusations from different people before going on the record with something this incendiary

by Anonymousreply 32September 21, 2021 8:12 PM

[quote] where does it say that FAUCI is that one sane member of the Trump administration who confirmed it?

I didn't say it was Fauci who confirmed. I am saying that not everyone who worked in a Trump administration is a Trumper as you want to define them.

Fauci is an example of a member of the Trump administration. There would be plenty of people who would be able to confirm that information who worked in the Trump administration and possibly still work for the government. They aren't all politicians.

by Anonymousreply 33September 21, 2021 8:14 PM

Curious how some of you simpletons have turned this into a Trump thing. It has nothing to do with Trump. Your blind hatred of that asshole blinds you to everything it seems.

Please take Trump out of your assholes and starting thinking clearly.

by Anonymousreply 34September 21, 2021 8:17 PM

The media should be making a "big deal" out of some wild claim made by a TRUMPER who won't even put his name to the story he's "authenticating" for us?

How many lies did they tell about Covid? How many lies did they just completely pull out of their asses?

And we're supposed to just immediately believe some unnamed Trumper. Sure, Jan.

Fuck that.

by Anonymousreply 35September 21, 2021 8:17 PM

[quote] The media should be making a "big deal" out of some wild claim made by a TRUMPER

You are also an idiot.

it is not a claim by a Trumper.

it is a document which clearly shows an application for funding that was denied. The so called Trumper was probably someone who working in the area that dealt with such applications. That's my guess.

by Anonymousreply 36September 21, 2021 8:22 PM

[quote] Curious how some of you simpletons have turned this into a Trump thing. It has nothing to do with Trump

Exactly.

I'm thinking these are either chinese or russian trolls trying to distract from the FACT that they did this to the world.

They're the ones with no credibility.

I believe this report.

by Anonymousreply 37September 21, 2021 8:27 PM

You're guessing, you have no fucking idea. You don't even know if it's real.

The "so-called Trumper" was called that in the article you're citing. Idiot.

Who's the fucking moron, the person who instantly believes a mysterious Trump liar about China Covid stories, or the person who waits to see if there is real evidence and any genuine, named, confirmation of it?

I'll bet you're all stocked up on horse de-wormer and hydraquinone! Stick with that, hon.

by Anonymousreply 38September 21, 2021 8:28 PM

If this were true, more people would be out there confirming it. The fact that it comes out nearly two years into the pandemic makes it suspicious.

Let's see if any real new organization can confirm this before we give it credence.

by Anonymousreply 39September 21, 2021 8:28 PM

Unfunded applications aren’t public and they aren’t FOI’able. The person who confirmed the document would have to have been a DARPA employee or reviewer.

And can we all agree now that the CCP can fund their own research and federal US funding agencies are fundamentally responsible and concerned about Biosafety issues.

by Anonymousreply 40September 21, 2021 8:31 PM

[quote]enhanced airborne coronaviruses

Enhanced??

[quote]The bid was submitted by British zoologist Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance, the US-based organisation, which has worked closely with the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) researching bat coronaviruses.

[quote]Team members included Dr Shi Zhengli, the WIV researcher dubbed “bat woman”, pictured below, as well as US researchers from the University of North Carolina and the United States Geological Survey National Wildlife Health Centre.

Posters keep calling out China.

UK and North Carolina researchers were also listed in the article as being part of the proposal.

by Anonymousreply 41September 21, 2021 8:38 PM

Messing with things you shouldn't be messing with.

Eating things you shouldn't be eating.

by Anonymousreply 42September 21, 2021 8:46 PM

US researchers do the work they were funded to do and this wasn’t funded. An application that isn’t funded is like a marriage proposal that is turned down.

UNC is probably Baric. He’s good people and has already voiced his view that the lab leak hypothesis should be further investigated.

by Anonymousreply 43September 21, 2021 8:47 PM

In San Francisco in the late 80s there were flyers on lamp posts with a similar narrative regarding HIV. In those pre Internet days it was impossible to discern if it were truthful. It hasn’t gotten any easier.

by Anonymousreply 44September 21, 2021 8:56 PM

[quote] UNC is probably Baric. He’s good people and has already voiced his view that the lab leak hypothesis should be further investigated.

Yes. That's what I was thinking. It makes the most sense. I thought that Baric had backed away from the GOF research somewhat if not completely. I do know that he was calling for looking into the Wuhan lab leak hypothesis - and that very well may be because of that funding application in 2018. Many scientists were heartened that Baric was joining them in calling for a proper scientific investigation. Unless he was just trying to cover his ass. Who knows?

There are numerous people who could have leaked parts or all of this application. Disguising your sources is important.

by Anonymousreply 45September 21, 2021 9:10 PM

Baric lost funding when the US GOF pause first went into effect. I’ve always wondered if some of his post-docs got recruited by a Thousand Talents program when that happened. People don’t understand that China spends about the same amount of money (higher gdp percentage of a lower gdp amount) as the US on research. When you make something illegal or too difficult in the US, one of the unintended consequences is that some researchers go to China, where there are far fewer controls in place. So by trying to make the world safer, you might accidentally make it more dangerous.

The article doesn’t seem to link to the application. I’d like to see if it was still at the white paper stage or was a full application. It’d be interesting to see the announcement it was in response to as well.

by Anonymousreply 46September 21, 2021 9:35 PM

So because a person from the Trump admin confirmed one statement in the article, all of the statements in the article are false? Why not consider the chance that it was a lab leak? Trump was still culpable for his terrible leadership during the pandemic. We should continue to vaccinate, wear masks, social distance etc. It's idiotic that this is being politicized so much into a repub vs dem thing when it isn't. We need to determine how we can prevent this from ever happening again. Maybe engineering it and releasing it wasn't China's call.

by Anonymousreply 47September 21, 2021 9:41 PM

Whatever, I hope I get to work from home longer

by Anonymousreply 48September 22, 2021 2:55 AM

Reading the article again it seems like investigators from UNC and/or the British group likely “leaked” the application to the website and then someone got confirmation to the veracity of the documents later. I am assuming the confirmation would have come from someone at DARPA or an external reviewer for them, since no one else would be in a position to verify. But the article is so vague about the identity, a whole plethora of partisan hacks could have confirmed falsely. If this is another dishonest attempt to create a lab leak narrative, it’s the first one that makes sense. I am really surprised that it doesn’t have legs.

What do you think R45?

by Anonymousreply 49September 22, 2021 11:10 AM

There is increasing evidence that the Wuhan Institute of Virology was conducting gain-of-function type research on bats and in collaboration with Peter Daszak, who was funnelling US funds from the NIH at a time when such research had been temporarily banned in the US because it's so dangerous. And not just that this research was happening but that there was a lab leak.

There is so much accumulating evidence for a potential lab leak while absolutely no evidence has been found for a zoonotic spillover, despite the fact that Chinese and western scientists have explored every possible potential intermediary animal. Just the fact that this virus is so stubbornly resilient and infectious should raise questions. Unfortunately, the issue has been so politicised in the US that people who should know better are willing to support a cover up of this event that has devastated the whole world rather than be seen to agree with Trump.

by Anonymousreply 50September 22, 2021 11:27 AM

[quote]Please take Trump out of your assholes

Pics please.

by Anonymousreply 51September 22, 2021 11:38 AM

Well I disagree with the funneling funds from the NIH for part in the above R50. GOF wasn’t banned in the US technically per se. It was banned using US federal funds anywhere in the world. The regulations on that flow down to any subawardees and make them subject to NIH oversight including mandatory CDC inspections. The NIH subaward amounts going to WIV were small compared to the cost of GOF work. And despite the false narrative that has been going around in the media NIH is very conservative about anything GOF (now P3CO) both during and after the pause. Certainly they’ve been more conservative than DARPA and DARPA rightly punted this application based on safety concerns.

I think it is far more likely that the CCP has been paying for the GOF/P3CO work itself and Daszak is someway implicated in a way that makes him blackmailable.

And it took years to find the OG SARS source so natural spillover isn’t ruled out by any means.

by Anonymousreply 52September 22, 2021 11:48 AM

Of course natural spillover is not ruled out but considering there has been a great manhunt, so to speak, for the intermediary animal and the search has been happening in real time, as the virus broke out and at the source of where it broke out, it's telling that they are still at a loss. And we know Sars 2 came from bats but instead of simply believing that it came directly from bats, we have to believe in an intermediary.

The NIH absolutely did award several million dollars to Peter Daszak and his EcoHealth Alliance for research into bat coronaviruses, some of which was conducted in partnership with the Wuhan lab.

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by Anonymousreply 53September 22, 2021 12:44 PM

Oh I totally agree that Daszak got NIH funding for coronavirus research that included subawarding funds to WIV. That’s all a matter of public record. It’s the claims that those funds were paying for the GOF happening at WIV that I don’t agree with. It’s more likely that the CCP was paying for that and Daszak was getting money from them for assisting. Subawards often run back and forth between collaborating investigators. NIH is lazy journalist low hanging fruit because it is transparent; CCP funding not so much.

by Anonymousreply 54September 22, 2021 12:55 PM

And no repercussions whatsoever. Oh well.

by Anonymousreply 55September 22, 2021 1:12 PM

So Daszak was doing dangerous GOF work at the WIV with CCP money while also doing "acceptable" research into bat coronaviruses at the WIV with NIH money. Surely there's some conflict of interest going on there and wouldn't he have had to declare everything that he was doing to the NIH, regardless of whether they were funding it?

by Anonymousreply 56September 22, 2021 6:47 PM

[quote] Papers, confirmed as genuine by a former member of the Trump administration,

OHHhhh, OK. Sure.

by Anonymousreply 57September 22, 2021 6:52 PM

I see Boris and LingLing are shooting down all of the plausible theories here, because they don't want to be blamed for starting a global pandemic.

Guess what, Russian/china cunts? YOU ARE TO BLAME.

by Anonymousreply 58September 22, 2021 6:55 PM

It’s speculation on my part, but if this news is real, that seems very plausible R56. And yes it would required to be disclosed in his other support submitted to the NIH. And if it wasn’t submitted, given how NIH and FBI are treating OS lapses as potential crimes rather than administrative lapses under the China initiative, it would make him particularly vulnerable to blackmail, which would certainly explain a lot about his behavior.

by Anonymousreply 59September 22, 2021 7:10 PM

I said this before in an earlier thread- I had it in January, and it was like not illness I ever had before. It felt very targeted, for lack of a better word. The way my sense of smell just went away all at once, and came back all at once. It felt efficient. I just had this sense that it felt like something that was more man-made than natural.

Now, I don't advocate any anti-Asian bigotry at all. But the Chinese government really needs to come clean.

by Anonymousreply 60September 22, 2021 7:15 PM

Fauci has LONG BEEN IN THE NIA he is not a trump appointee. Dont lie

by Anonymousreply 61September 22, 2021 8:24 PM

Member of administration doesn’t necessarily mean appointed by.

NIA (aging) and NIAID (allergy and infectious disease) are completely different institutes of the NIH. Dr. Fauci is at NIAID, not NIA.

This article is about an application to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. It has nothing to do with either Dr. Fauci or anyone else at NIH.

by Anonymousreply 62September 22, 2021 8:41 PM

R60 That's chilling.

by Anonymousreply 63September 23, 2021 3:50 AM

Yes, right here in the land of the free, we are also the least free people of the world. However, I strongly agree that China MUST FORGIVE OUR NATIONAL DEBT for this reason alone. (pause). Of course that’s when we’ll be starting WW III. Are we ready for that? Because whatever the Chinese define as a “threat” is completely up to them. Even if we stop trade, they could perceive that as said threat.

by Anonymousreply 64September 23, 2021 10:08 AM

The right has long tried to push that COVID was a China lab leak. While the theory is intriguing and there are weird coincidences (or are news leaks really true or made up news to support this theory?)

Scientists aren't finding any smoking guns that would lead definitively to the lab. The genetics of COVID look more like it occurred naturally than at a lab.

by Anonymousreply 65September 23, 2021 2:40 PM

There's a lot of evidence for a lab leak, r65 and it's nothing to do with the "right". There is a lot more evidence for a lab leak than for a natural spillover (in fact, there is absolutely no evidence for a natural spillover). Of course, an independent international investigation at the Wuhan lab might come up with some evidence, but China won't allow that.

by Anonymousreply 66September 23, 2021 3:12 PM

Democrats are not going to do anything. China won already.

by Anonymousreply 67September 23, 2021 3:19 PM

[quote] There's a lot of evidence for a lab leak, [R65] and it's nothing to do with the "right". There is a lot more evidence for a lab leak than for a natural spillover (in fact, there is absolutely no evidence for a natural spillover).

There really isn't. There are many loud voices but much of what they say has been debunked.

by Anonymousreply 68September 23, 2021 3:28 PM

[quote] Democrats are not going to do anything. China won already.

The GOP wouldn't do anything either. Everyone is dependent on China at this point.

by Anonymousreply 69September 23, 2021 3:29 PM

[quote]There is a lot more evidence for a lab leak than for a natural spillover (in fact, there is absolutely no evidence for a natural spillover).

You don't do your cause any favors when you assert something so easily disproved.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 70September 23, 2021 3:36 PM

R69 GOP has been against China for the past 4 years. Have you even read the news?

by Anonymousreply 71September 23, 2021 11:32 PM

It wasn’t an INTENTIONAL lab leak! (Have any of you seen the kitchens in Chinese restaurants?). This virus is not a naturally mutating virus. It might have started that way, but became something else. There’s nothing “natural” about COVID.

by Anonymousreply 72September 24, 2021 9:23 AM

R69, r70. I guess it's a case of which side you believe. Those scientists and researchers who believe there was a probable lab leak in my opinion, present clear information and evidence for their case, despite all the politicised attacks against them and the complete misrepresentation of their position. The article linked to by r70 is a politicised opinion. It extensively quotes Angie Rasmussen, who is one of the most polemical opponents of the lab leak theory to the point that she is considered a joke, and much of the research it's based on was done in China by Chinese researchers, so excuse me if I'm a little sceptical. Any researcher in China who supported the lab leak theory would be immediately "disappeared"

The western proponents of a natural spillover, in my opinion present absolutely no evidence whatsoever (literally, they have offered no evidence, not a single bit, even what's claimed at r70) and are motivated by an anti-Trump position and concern that there might be greater oversight of their work. They are opposed to limitations on how far they can go and probably a little worried questions might start being asked of what they have already been doing.

You really need to remember the reaction to Trump when he clumsily suggested that this was a lab leak. Of course, being the belligerent idiot he is, he implied - although he never actually stated - that the virus had deliberately been manufactured by the Chinese as a bio weapon. That is not the lab leak theory, however. The lab leak theory is that very risky research into bat coronaviruses was being done at the Wuhan lab, of the type that is banned in the US. There was an accident of some kind and the virus leaked into the environment. Lab accidents do happen, much more than the general public is aware.

Gain of function research was banned in the US because it was considered a risk - in other words, it is believed by the US authorities to be a very real possibility that such research can endanger human society. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that Gain of function research was being done at the Wuhan lab and there is also evidence that Peter Daszak, who is very influential in scientific communities and with politicians in both China and the West (although even he had his gain of function research proposal rejected in the US), was involved in it. Daszak's key role and influence have played a major part in smearing the lab leak theory.

Even the most virulent scientific opponents of the lab leak theory still always add the caveat that "it's a possibility, even if a very highly unlikely one". Even Angie Rasmussen says that, so I'm not sure why you can't.

by Anonymousreply 73September 24, 2021 9:51 AM

I meant r68 and r70 at r73.

by Anonymousreply 74September 24, 2021 9:53 AM

Here's your thoughtful, "evidence-based scientist" Angie Rasmussen, r70, who is the main source for that article.

[quote]Yesterday I tweeted criticism of Trump, and I dropped a F bomb. Some have complained in the replies about how this vulgar display of uncontrolled emotion, as well as me expressing my political opinions, hurts my credibility. My response? Fuck that.

[quote]As a virologist, my professional opinion of this tweet is fuck off, you cowardly, fragile, gaslighting liar whose own repeated extolling of inaccuracies have directly gotten people killed. [Tweet reply to Donald Trump]

by Anonymousreply 75September 24, 2021 10:02 AM

DL doesn't seem to like Twitter links or urls even in the comments, so the link for the tweet at r75 is twitter dot com angie_rasmussen/status/1254468908783812608

by Anonymousreply 76September 24, 2021 10:04 AM

[quote]Even the most virulent scientific opponents of the lab leak theory still always add the caveat that "it's a possibility, even if a very highly unlikely one". Even Angie Rasmussen says that, so I'm not sure why you can't.

Where did I say that a lab leak wasn't a possibility? Of course, it's a possibility. I objected to your characterization that "there's absolutely no evidence for a natural spillover." Which remains untrue, no matter how many times Angela Rasmussen drops the f-bomb.

by Anonymousreply 77September 24, 2021 11:43 AM

We make new vilus for you soon ok?

by Anonymousreply 78September 24, 2021 11:54 AM

R77, everything about the LA Times article you linked to is framed to undermine the lab leak theory.

The "scientific paper" that according to the LA Times article, "gives more credence to “zoonotic” origin of the virus" is nothing more than a regurgitation of the host animal in the market theory. It provides zero new evidence for this theory though. Chinese scientists co-wrote it, which in itself raises red flags (not that Chinese scientists cannot be good scientists but they are absolutely not permitted to discuss the lab leak theory and are obliged to promote the zoonotic theory).

[quote]It is currently not possible to be certain of the animal source of SARS-CoV-2, but it is notable that live animals, including civet cats, foxes, minks, and raccoon dogs, all susceptible to sarbecoviruses, were for sale in Wuhan markets, including the Huanan market (identified as an epicenter of the outbreak in Wuhan) throughout 2019 (10). Many of these animals are farmed for their fur at large scale and then sold to animal markets (11). Some of these farmed species (American minks, red foxes, and raccoon dogs) were sold alive for food by Wuhan animal sellers, as was trapped wildlife (including raccoon dogs and badgers), although no bat species were for sale (10). Together, this suggests a central role for SARSr-CoV–susceptible live intermediate host animals as the primary source of the SARS-CoV-2 progenitor that humans were exposed to, as was the case with the origin of SARS.

That's it, that's all they offer, the market theory, but they have no clue which host animal. The Chinese basically tested every type of animal in the market to see if it could be the source and came up with nothing. Which gives more credence to the theory that there was no intermediate animal and hence no zoonotic spillover.

by Anonymousreply 79September 24, 2021 12:05 PM

[quote]That's it, that's all they offer, the market theory, but they have no clue which host animal.

"Outbreak-origin investigations often take years, and some culprits remain unknown. It took 14 years to nail down the origin of the SARS epidemic, which began with a virus in bats that spread to humans, most likely through civets. To date, a complete Ebola virus has never been isolated from an animal in the region where the world’s largest outbreak occurred between 2013 and 2016.

Origin investigations are complicated because outbreaks among animals that aren't the main hosts of a particular virus, such as civets in the case of SARS, are often sporadic. Researchers must find the right animal before it dies or clears the infection. And, even if the animal tests positive, viruses found in saliva, faeces or blood are often degraded, making it difficult to sequence the pathogen’s whole genome."

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by Anonymousreply 80September 24, 2021 12:08 PM

Yeah, that's the other "evidence" for the zoonotic theory: "it can take a long time". I mean, it's not as though there's a state-of-the-art virology lab right in Wuhan, which was not the case in China 20 years ago, or that the Chinese authorities are authoritarian with huge resources, so they are in a position to move heaven and earth and look under every stone to find the intermediary animal, starting with the enclosed and hence easily investigated space of a market, which is the favourite spot of the zoonotic camp. And it's not as though the Chinese do not have a huge incentive to hunt down this mystery animal, considering that this virus has fucked the whole world up. I mean, it's not as though this virus is really fucking weird and behaves like no virus previously known, which, you know, might suggest it was enhanced in a laboratory.

Basically, the evidence for the zoonotic theory is "we don't know, hence it's difficult to know, hence it's a mystery animal".

by Anonymousreply 81September 24, 2021 7:33 PM
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by Anonymousreply 82September 25, 2021 1:27 PM

R82, Hotez and Daszak are very tight. He has been doing vaccine research for a long time and had developed his own SARS vaccine way before the pandemic and couldn't get any pharma $$ to fund trials.

They had identified the vector for SARS CoV 1 within 3 months, it did not take 14 years. They had identified the vector for MERS within something like 5-6 months.

by Anonymousreply 83September 26, 2021 8:30 AM

Alternatively r82, that study could be interpreted as being another step in favour of the Gain of Function lab leak theory because, even though the BANAL virus found in these bats is 95% related to the SARS-CoV-2 virus the crucial difference is the furin cleavage, which BANAL does not have but SARS-CoV-2 does. The insertion of the furin cleavage is in fact , is one of the many pieces of risky research that Peter Daszak wanted to do but his funding application in the US was rejected. He could very easily have been involved in similar research in China, especially since there is a lack of transparency as to what exactly was going on at the Wuhan Institute and several pointers that it could have been this type of research.

Right r83, this is one of Daszak's buddies, he's also worked in China since 1994 and wants continued Sino-American research cooperation. He's scared that the gravy train will end for him and there will be far more scrutiny of his work.

by Anonymousreply 84September 26, 2021 9:18 AM

R68 That word “debunked” gets thrown around a lot these days, very assertively but without anything to back it up. Sez who?

by Anonymousreply 85September 27, 2021 4:29 AM

US and China military cooperating to kill off the world population. Not really a surprise. Remember for most of the Republican party, the future of the world is FEUDALISM.

by Anonymousreply 86September 27, 2021 4:41 AM

I did not mean to degrade these Chinese scientists. They, in fact, were successful in their PAID research funding! They are simply more “messy” in a most general sense. It was probably US funded for military purposes. Don’t forget that blood infusion to wounded soldiers was invented for injured US soldiers. In fact, that is why we have the Red Cross today. Our government could give a fuck about the rest of us.

Suckers are made, not born!

by Anonymousreply 87September 27, 2021 1:01 PM

R85, please see R70.

If there were ANY proof it came out of a lab, wouldn't we be hearing about it? Wouldn't it be front page news?

Instead there was a flareup of interest and then nothing.

by Anonymousreply 88September 27, 2021 4:14 PM

There's a new book out "What Happened in Wuhan" that is getting a lot of attention R88

by Anonymousreply 89October 11, 2021 5:03 AM

There's lots of circumstantial evidence that this virus was manipulated in the Wuhan lab and that it then leaked from the lab, r88. Here's a video of Peter Daszak - the British-American scientist who is a close collaborator with the Wuhan lab and who is at the centre of the lab leak theory - basically saying that they'd done plenty of manipulation of the SARSs viruses from southern China in the lab. Of course, the smoking gun would have been hidden a long time ago and the Chinese won't allow a transparent and independent investigation.

There is no evidence for the natural spillover theory, except for theoretical hypothetical scenarios.

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by Anonymousreply 90October 11, 2021 10:48 AM

This Week in Virology was one of the biggest players in trying to stifle any investigation or consideration into a possible lab leak. It actually still is. They are still ridiculing it. They also did a lot to demonize anyone who suggested it. They spent over a year mocking and smearing anyone who dared to question the party line.

I had a hard time watching them after I realized how dishonest they were. No one gets on their regular discussion panels which they post on youtube unless they buy into the party line. Vincent is obnoxious.

Thanks I'll try to watch it later.

by Anonymousreply 91October 12, 2021 1:32 AM

The very fact that the Chinese government is totally preventing any on-site investigation of what happened virtually PROCLAIMS, to me, that they know a LOT more about where this virus came from than they care to have revealed. They KNOW. And here we are, saying, "Oh it's such a shame the Chinese won't allow investigation, because if they did, THEN we might be able to find out what REALLY happened." It's like a dream world: we have a virus that has killed millions and millions of people in one year, and they are allowed to just say, "Oh no, we don't know anything AT ALL about this, it must have come from some spooky animal out there. Chupacabra." And in the West we just scratch our heads and act mystified? Until further notice comes from the Chinese, I am assuming that THEY were fucking around with it in that lab, and it got out. Give me a better explanation.

by Anonymousreply 92October 12, 2021 3:37 PM

The DARPA submission gets a shout-out, also the dangers of applying regulations to only US government funders.

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by Anonymousreply 93April 28, 2022 10:12 PM

Referenced also in Washington Post Article today.

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by Anonymousreply 94March 9, 2023 1:15 PM

Flashback Friday, y'all!

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by Anonymousreply 95March 10, 2023 10:35 AM

It’s a shame this thread is grayed out because of all the trolls.

by Anonymousreply 96March 10, 2023 1:04 PM

FYI - I haven't read yet.

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by Anonymousreply 97June 26, 2023 5:08 PM
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