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The History of the Parthenon Marbles

Of the items that Lord Elgin, took from atop the Acropolis, it is estimated that he looted some 247 feet of frieze from the Parthenon, what is commonly referred to today as the so-called “Elgin Marbles”. Furthermore, it is believed that Elgin took around half of what was still standing of the Parthenon at that time.

It is long overdue that England return these priceless Parthenon Sculptures, an indelible and integral piece of the country's culture, that Elgin stole from the Greece in 1816. And with the new Acropolis Museum in Athens, Greece is well-equipped to keep the Sculptures safe for posterity.

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by Anonymousreply 312May 19, 2022 3:51 AM

Even British politicians have tried to pass bills demanding that the Parthenon Sculptures be returned to Greece. As recently as 2016, A new UK bill, “The Parthenon Sculptures (Return to Greece),” was presented by a joint panel composed of Liberal Democrat MP Mark Williams, supported by Conservative Jeremy Lefroy and 10 other MPs from Labor, the SNP and Plaid Cymru.

“This Bill proposes that the Parliament should annul what it did 200 years ago. In 1816 Parliament effectively state-sanctioned the improper acquisition of these impressive and important sculptures from Greece,” Williams said according to the independent.co.uk.

“It’s time we engaged in a gracious act. To put right a 200-year wrong,” he said, concluding with sentiments felt by so many people around the world, “These magnificent artifacts were improperly dragged and sawn off the remains of the Parthenon.”

by Anonymousreply 1September 7, 2021 7:28 PM

It's time to return the sculptures to Greece.

by Anonymousreply 2September 7, 2021 7:29 PM

The British Museum pitches a fit any time it's suggested they return the marbles.

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by Anonymousreply 3September 7, 2021 7:30 PM

The sculptures do not belong to England despite what some prissy museum director says. Elgin stole and looted the Parthenon and removed the sculptures from the facade of the Parthenon. Return the sculptures to Greece!

by Anonymousreply 4September 7, 2021 7:33 PM

Theft is theft. Give it back. Start with the Elgin Marbles.

by Anonymousreply 5September 7, 2021 7:35 PM

Yea that's all politically correct and whether they should be returned today is another issue.

But most antiquarians would say they were rescued rather than looted.

Had they not been relocated at the time they in all probability would not exist today.

Personally I think it's time to return them but I'm not into revisionist history as the excuse.

by Anonymousreply 6September 7, 2021 7:43 PM

Meh. We started emptying our museums just because the country we looted it from is no longer a backwards shit hole there'd be nothing left besides Anglo-Saxon hoards.

by Anonymousreply 7September 7, 2021 7:47 PM

The sculptures belong to Greece. They are part of the Parthenon. It's not like these sculptures were discovered on some random via an archeological dig that were secretly scurried out of the country--and even in that instance it would be wrong to take them. These were priceless marbles removed from the face of the Parthenon, the greatest building in all of Western Civilization.

England--they don't belong to you. Give them back.

by Anonymousreply 8September 7, 2021 8:36 PM

I go to see them every time I am in London. Every time I leave more convinced that they should be returned.

by Anonymousreply 9September 7, 2021 8:41 PM

The first excuse the British used was that Greece was unstable and they might get destroyed if returned. Once Greece built the Parthenon museum with its (now empty) space for the Marbles, the British suddenly changed its reasoning to "They are part of world heritage and should stay here along other great artifacts of the world."

by Anonymousreply 10September 7, 2021 8:44 PM

[quote] The Parthenon was extensively damaged in 1687 during the Great Turkish War (1683–1699). The Ottoman army fortified the Acropolis of Athens and used the Parthenon as a gunpowder magazine and a shelter for members of the local Turkish community. On 26 September, a Venetian mortar round blew up the magazine, and the explosion blew out the building's central portion. About three hundred people were killed in the explosion, which caused fires that burned until the following day and consumed many homes.

[quote] The Parthenon was extensively and permanently damaged when Thomas Bruce, the 7th Earl of Elgin and ambassador to the Ottoman Empire (occupiers of Greece in the early 19th century), who admired the Parthenon's extensive collection of ancient marble sculptures, began extracting and expatriating them to Britain in 1801. More damage to the site's heritage came after independence, when all Medieval and Ottoman features of the Acropolis (most notably the Frankish Tower) were destroyed by Heinrich Schliemann in a project to rid the site of all post-Classical influence.

by Anonymousreply 11September 7, 2021 8:49 PM

I think they should make fabulous replicas and return those.

"Look, we found the rest of the WHOLE THING in the basement!"

by Anonymousreply 12September 7, 2021 8:54 PM

I've been fortunate enough to see them many times, they are interesting in their context and history as well as the terrific workmanship they clearly embody.

I agree if they hadn't been "rescued" they would likely be rubble now, after all the destruction that ruined the great building and surroundings, but they really do morally belong where they came from.

As an aside, what hell kind of name is Hartwig?!

by Anonymousreply 13September 7, 2021 9:10 PM

Talk to the marbles.

by Anonymousreply 14September 7, 2021 9:15 PM

The Elgin marbles were legally sold by the Turks who owned them at the time. Greece was a part of the Ottoman Empire then. There had not been a Greek nation since 1450 - 300 years under the Turks when Elgin bought them.

by Anonymousreply 15September 7, 2021 9:16 PM

Lord Elgin was of course Scottish, not English.

by Anonymousreply 16September 7, 2021 9:19 PM

If "They would have been destroyed" is a good excuse, why cant the West just go in and take down the entire Pathenon and set it up behind the British museum?

by Anonymousreply 17September 7, 2021 9:19 PM

[quote] The Elgin marbles were legally sold by the Turks who owned them at the time.

They weren't sold and the Turks never owned them

by Anonymousreply 18September 7, 2021 9:20 PM

Finders keepers.

by Anonymousreply 19September 7, 2021 9:27 PM

Elgin had an agreement with the Ottomans to remove the marbles, and they were the legal, internationally recognized government of Greece at the time, and had been for centuries.

by Anonymousreply 20September 7, 2021 9:53 PM

I have been to the Parthenon Museum and it is world class. They belong in Greece.

by Anonymousreply 21September 7, 2021 10:11 PM

[quote} As an aside, what hell kind of name is Hartwig?!

You should ask?

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by Anonymousreply 22September 7, 2021 11:04 PM

[Quote] Elgin had an agreement with the Ottomans to remove the marbles, and they were the legal, internationally recognized government of Greece at the time, and had been for centuries.

We’ve now lived forward over 200 years and no longer recognize agreements made by imperial invaders. Britain should give them back.

by Anonymousreply 23September 8, 2021 1:04 AM

We can argue about the purported legality of the looting, but the bottom line is that the marbles belong in Greece. The UK should send them back.

by Anonymousreply 24September 8, 2021 1:20 AM

[quote] Yea that's all politically correct and whether they should be returned today is another issue.

No, it's the same issue. "Political correctness" is what stupid people say to dismiss the right thing to do.

by Anonymousreply 25September 8, 2021 1:50 AM

Am I the only one who thought they were these big round things like kid's marbles?

by Anonymousreply 26September 8, 2021 3:22 AM

More people will see them in London than in Greece and they are safer there. The Greeks are bankrupt and can't afford to move them, conserve them and display them. They spent almost $200 million for the new museum. It would cost close to a billion dollars to move, conserve and exhibit them. The Greeks should pay the British Museum for them - that would be another billion dollars. The UK cannot send them back legally anyway. The Greeks should focus on taking care of all of the other monuments that are crumbling as we speak- like the Temple of Apollo at Bassae.

by Anonymousreply 27September 8, 2021 3:43 AM

Why can’t we have nice things??

by Anonymousreply 28September 8, 2021 5:12 AM

We'll give them Meghan Marbles instead.

by Anonymousreply 29September 8, 2021 5:32 AM

Britain, you're a thief. Return the sculptures to Greece. They are not yours.

by Anonymousreply 30September 8, 2021 6:42 AM

I’ve lost my marbles!

by Anonymousreply 31September 8, 2021 6:50 AM

UNESCO is involved in this story so I think it's just a matter of time before they're returned. They are part of Greece's cultural heritage. They will go home.

by Anonymousreply 32September 8, 2021 7:09 AM

Keep 'em. 200 years possession means they are English now.

by Anonymousreply 33September 8, 2021 7:15 AM

As I understand it, there would be ways of moving forward and anything would be on the table (e.g. the Marbles being sent to Greece on exhibition and even splitting their time between Greece and the UK), except for the legal title issue. Nothing is negotiable from the UK perspective unless the BM's legal title is accepted, which the Greek government will not do. It seems self-defeating if they really want the Marbles in Greece, as there is no international claim they have that is valid and the BM isn't going to just return them without strings, even if a UK government allowed them (as no Conservative govt ever would and even a Labour one is doubtful), however much activists think insulting institutions and countries is the way to get them to do something they want .

by Anonymousreply 34September 8, 2021 7:20 AM

UNESCO has been around for decades and nothing has happened. They have no pull.

by Anonymousreply 35September 8, 2021 7:22 AM

Of course they do. Everything moves slowly in such cases and rightly so. It will happen.

by Anonymousreply 36September 8, 2021 7:26 AM

Literally no chance, R36.

by Anonymousreply 37September 8, 2021 7:46 AM

[quote] OH NO NOT UNESCO!!! - No one ever

Jesus Christ the actual UN can't get countries to listen to it at this point. I don't know what you think its architecture lobby will be able to pull off.

by Anonymousreply 38September 8, 2021 8:18 AM

We’ve already said they can have Stonehenge, if they can haul it away

by Anonymousreply 39September 8, 2021 9:58 AM

[quote]The Elgin marbles were legally sold by the Turks who owned them at the time.

Rubbish! The Turks were OCCUPIERS. They had no right to sell, give away or cede land or national treasurers of the country they occupied.

This Give the Marbles Back wallah has been going on for decades. Greece's view (rightly) is give 'em back, they're ours and Britain is colluding in looting/thief. Britain's view is if it weren't for us pinching them, they wouldn't exist what with all the wars, invasions, pollution, etc.

When Italy invaded Abyssinia (Ethiopia) in 1937, the occupying Italians pinched the 400 tonne Axum obilesk, shlepped it back to Rome, kept it in defiance of the 1947 Peace Treaty in which Italy agreed to return all looted national treasures. Eventually the Italians did the right thing. They cleaned up the obilesk and in 2005, returned it in pieces to Ethiopia. Would that Britain were as honorable.

by Anonymousreply 40September 8, 2021 10:17 AM

[quote] I agree if they hadn't been "rescued" they would likely be rubble now, after all the destruction that ruined the great building and surroundings, but they really do morally belong where they came from.

That utter bullshit and a lame excuse to justify shiesty behaviour. England should at least return the Caryatid from the Erechtheion. It’s sad seeing the incomplete set at the beautiful Acropolis museum knowing the last sister is being held captive at the “British” museum.

by Anonymousreply 41September 8, 2021 10:18 AM

R40 That is correct. The Greeks were under the Ottoman occupation. The British have no legal claim to art sculptures that were part of the Parthenon for over 2,000 years when they were removed.

by Anonymousreply 42September 8, 2021 10:24 AM

Maria Callas tried to get them back. Perhaps if Faye had been allowed to make and star in "Master Class" a new generation of fans would have carried on her cause.

by Anonymousreply 43September 8, 2021 10:25 AM

R42 is spouting the usual ahystoric nonsense. Museums across the world are full of objects that were somewhere else centuries ago. If the British have no legal claim, as R42 says, then it should be easy to get the Marbles back. Except they do have a complete legal claim, hence the failure of any legal moves to change the current situation. The only realistic move would be to abandon the bombast and rhetoric and negotiate an arrangement in good faith. Demanding the British cede ownership up front is a way to get nothing quickly.

I don't remember Callas giving a fuck about the Marbles, by the way. Do you meant Melina Mercouri, R43?

by Anonymousreply 44September 8, 2021 10:47 AM

'Ahistoric', obvs.

by Anonymousreply 45September 8, 2021 10:47 AM

r44 To be fair to the Greeks they've offered longterm loan of other objects in exchange. But given the obvious cultural value of the marbles compared to anything they can give. The fact that it would take an Act of Parliament to even OK any deal, and how many visitors go to the museum to see them specifically. Then any deal offered by the Greeks would have to be amazing for them to agree to it. The only possible way forward I could ever see is an agreement to share ownership somehow with both museums displaying them for a few years in turn. Though I doubt the Greeks would go for that since it would naturally mean they'd be going back to London sooner or later, and the BM would want some sort of guarantee that they wouldn't keep them once they're in Athens.

by Anonymousreply 46September 8, 2021 10:58 AM

If the Greeks cede legal ownership to the BM, then no Act of Parliament is required. The possibility of short and long-term loans and mutually advantageous exchanges and agreements opens up. At the very least, it puts the BM on the defensive. Carrying on as they have been for half a century just demanding full ownership of the Marbles is demonstrably futile. What's endlessly repeating the same thing and expecting a different result called, again? On the Benn Bronzes front, the BM is carrying on a discreet negotiation with the museums in Nigeria and no-one at a senior level is screaming about ownership in dramatic terms (that's mostly left to journalists and students). We will see what happens, but it could be a way forward.

by Anonymousreply 47September 8, 2021 1:16 PM

R44, The British stole them. The "legal claim" argument is absolute BS to create as many obstacles (and excuses) as possible.

by Anonymousreply 48September 8, 2021 1:26 PM

Colonial powers don't automatically "own" the treasures of whatever country they dominate.

by Anonymousreply 49September 8, 2021 1:28 PM

Irrelevant R48 - you're just saying the same thing repeatedly and nothing will ever change. Maybe that's what you want, just to shout grievances.

Oh, R49, the Parthenon itself was built from the proceeds of Athenian colonial power with resources taken from islands and cities around the Greek, Black Sea and Turkish coasts. Logically the modern Turkish state could claim a chunk of it back. That is ridiculous, of course, but it's where you end up if you start down that road.

by Anonymousreply 50September 8, 2021 2:23 PM

R50, yes things will change when the social pressure against Britain gets so bad that they will have to return them.

Britain was a colonial power that raped every country it set foot in. It didn't suddenly own everything just because it ruled the people of those countries, no more than Nazis suddenly owning the valuables of the Jews they killed.

by Anonymousreply 51September 8, 2021 2:29 PM

Lay off our homie. Elgin was a white christian aristocrat. Cut the dude some slack.

by Anonymousreply 52September 8, 2021 2:35 PM

In 1801 when the Elgin Marbles were taken, the Turkish Empire, who had had Greece , for what 350 years ?had used many of the ruins as just extra marble to bargain with.

We come at this with 2021 and say give back , because this is Greece. Greece did not exist as such in 1801 and in actual fact the Marbles pushed an agenda with England and France,, which ultimately led to the expulsion of the Turks by French and English and Greeks , who were inspired by these sculptures, or Ode to a Grecian Urn etc.

This was all complicated in 1801. The Turks did not give a fuck about Greek culture. Look at what happened in Palmyra. Can most people see it now? After Isis destroyed it? We keep pushing this agenda that is not without fault and say , well England stole them. Did they? Elgin. Was told not to take them. He did anyway.

I mean 200 years later it seems simple. But when the EU owns so much of Greece. How much of these marbles would end up being Greek?

by Anonymousreply 53September 8, 2021 3:38 PM

If returned this will open floodgates that will irrevocably damage museums, the return of all Napoleon’s war spoils from the Louvre will be next.

by Anonymousreply 54September 8, 2021 3:45 PM

The Parthenon is in Athens. The marbles belong with it. It's really that simple.

[Quote]Construction started in 447 BC when the Athenian Empire was at the peak of its power. It was completed in 438 BC, although decoration of the building continued until 432 BC. It is the most important surviving building of Classical Greece, generally considered the zenith of the Doric order.

by Anonymousreply 55September 8, 2021 3:53 PM

R54 Good if people want to see them they should visit Greece!

by Anonymousreply 56September 8, 2021 3:58 PM

Social pressure against Britain over some antiquities? Not a chance. Hilarious. Who is going to lead this moral charge? All the countries with their own museums full of stuff from everywhere else? Dream on.

by Anonymousreply 57September 8, 2021 4:01 PM

I just really think we should set an international cutoff date, an open season for before and after, about reparations and returns and move forward and concentrate on reclaiming what falls on the side of possibly. And whatever that date is, I feel for the most part the marbles falls on the side of let it be where it is now.

by Anonymousreply 58September 8, 2021 4:13 PM

The modern "Greeks" are Slavs that invaded and replaced the local population in the 6th-7th centuries. The only surviving genetic "Greek" populations might be in Albania.

by Anonymousreply 59September 8, 2021 4:28 PM

Americans need to stop whining about the marbles when they've just raped and exploited Iraq and Afghanistan.

by Anonymousreply 60September 8, 2021 5:35 PM

Well, at least we didn’t blow up giant Buddhas

by Anonymousreply 61September 8, 2021 5:45 PM

They belong to Greece. End of discussion. Return the motherfuckers, you thieves.

by Anonymousreply 62September 8, 2021 6:54 PM

[quote] If returned this will open floodgates that will irrevocably damage museums, the return of all Napoleon’s war spoils from the Louvre will be next.

And the problem with that is?

by Anonymousreply 63September 8, 2021 7:31 PM

[quote] Social pressure against Britain over some antiquities? Not a chance. Hilarious. Who is going to lead this moral charge? All the countries with their own museums full of stuff from everywhere else? Dream on.

US museums have returned many antiquities as have other countries' museums. It's just a matter of time before the British Museum follows. Colonialism is understood now to be based in thievery. The British Museum will come to the same conclusion. ultimately.

by Anonymousreply 64September 8, 2021 7:33 PM

[quote] Americans need to stop whining about the marbles when they've just raped and exploited Iraq and Afghanistan.

And the stupid British were right there with us doing the same.

by Anonymousreply 65September 8, 2021 7:34 PM

I can't believe someone on here is trying to rationalize why England deserves to keep the marbles. As others have stated, saying they would've have been ruined otherwise is not factual and completely not the point. Those responsible in the UK for not doing the right thing are void of ethics.

by Anonymousreply 66September 8, 2021 7:36 PM

We bought them fair and square. If you have a problem then speak to the marbles manager, Karen.

by Anonymousreply 67September 8, 2021 7:47 PM

The UK fairly and legally owns the Elgin Marbles and has no obligation of any kind to gift them to Greece. Thank you, Lord Elgin, for securing the long term safety of the sculptures by rescuing them from their previous location and bringing them to Britain.

by Anonymousreply 68September 8, 2021 7:50 PM

Greece is a "fucking Hellhole" politically& financially. Keep the Fucking Elgin Marbles, I like them in London.

by Anonymousreply 69September 8, 2021 7:50 PM

[quote] Colonialism is understood now to be based in thievery.

Greece was not a colony of the UK or the Ottoman Empire.

by Anonymousreply 70September 8, 2021 7:53 PM

[quote] The UK fairly and legally owns the Elgin Marbles and has no obligation of any kind to gift them to Greece. Thank you, Lord Elgin, for securing the long term safety of the sculptures by rescuing them from their previous location and bringing them to Britain.

What's all this BS about "legally" owning the Marbles. There were no legal papers, just theft.

by Anonymousreply 71September 8, 2021 7:56 PM

[quote] Greece was not a colony of the UK or the Ottoman Empire.

Yet, the thievery that Britain exhibited is typical colonialism. Come in and take.

by Anonymousreply 72September 8, 2021 7:57 PM

Snobby English ignorant cunts on this board.

by Anonymousreply 73September 8, 2021 7:58 PM

When countries and museums return some art pieces to third-world countries in Africa, it shows how little they actually value that art. When France and the Louvre return the Mona Lisa to Italy, then we can start taking repatriation seriously.

by Anonymousreply 74September 8, 2021 8:02 PM

R71, apparently there’s a decent argument that Elgin never had prior approval from the Ottoman Empire to remove the marbles. So he robbed both the Greeks AND the Turks. Perfection.

R74, the Mona Lisa was taken by Leonardo to France. It was never national property the way the Parthenon was.

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by Anonymousreply 75September 8, 2021 8:06 PM

Did the nation of Greece even exist when the sculptures left Athens? Or were they more like Greek city states?

by Anonymousreply 76September 8, 2021 8:09 PM

[quote] When countries and museums return some art pieces to third-world countries in Africa, it shows how little they actually value that art. When France and the Louvre return the Mona Lisa to Italy, then we can start taking repatriation seriously

Wow, how paternalistic. Developing countries can't handle their own treasures.

The Mona Lisa was never an ancient Italian treasure.

by Anonymousreply 77September 8, 2021 8:09 PM

[quote] Did the nation of Greece even exist when the sculptures left Athens? Or were they more like Greek city states?

They would go back to the same location they were taken from and be placed in the magnificent Parthenon Museum, so the point is moot.

by Anonymousreply 78September 8, 2021 8:10 PM

The Mona Lisa predates the country of Italy.

by Anonymousreply 79September 8, 2021 8:11 PM

The Roman Empire coveted Ancient Greek sculpture and collected and shipped it to Rome and the Italian peninsula. Should any Greek originals in Italian collections be returned to Greece?

by Anonymousreply 80September 8, 2021 8:14 PM

R80, Greece certainly isn't asking for them but they would have a point.

by Anonymousreply 81September 8, 2021 8:16 PM

The brits are the worst and they love the republicans in America

And that pretty much sums up their fucking stupidity. The Democrats in America are actually more conservative than the british conservatives. But the british conservatives like to think they're tough and side with the reprehensible party in America

the brits are like 9 yr old wanna be bullies. They side with the deplorables

by Anonymousreply 82September 8, 2021 8:19 PM

The best part of seeing nuts clamoring for the UK to give away the Elgin Marbles, or seeing these people falsely claiming that the marbles don’t legally belong to the UK, is knowing that the marbles will be safe and secure in the UK today, tomorrow, a century from now…

by Anonymousreply 83September 8, 2021 8:30 PM

[Quote]The best part of seeing nuts clamoring for the UK to give away the Elgin Marbles,

Not give away. Return.

by Anonymousreply 84September 8, 2021 8:43 PM

Just 3D print a copy and be done with it.

by Anonymousreply 85September 8, 2021 8:45 PM

r82 Why is it some retards feel the need to link American politics into every random discussion on this site? I'm convinced one day I'll open up a thread about something like Shawn Mendez ass only to see one lone cunt sharting about deplorables and democrats as if it has anything to do with the issue at hand or as if anyone outside of America gives a shit.

by Anonymousreply 86September 8, 2021 8:47 PM

The Greeks should pay reparations to the middle east after Alexander the Great plundered his way through it.

by Anonymousreply 87September 8, 2021 8:49 PM

Alexander wasn't Greek. Macedonia is its own country now.

by Anonymousreply 88September 8, 2021 9:01 PM

Britain still likes to pretend it still has an empire and is relevant to the world

by Anonymousreply 89September 8, 2021 9:01 PM

R87 When stupid people think they are clever.

by Anonymousreply 90September 8, 2021 9:23 PM

[quote] Britain still likes to pretend it still has an empire and is relevant to the world

That’s a great comment to throw in when you have nothing of any value to add to a discussion.

by Anonymousreply 91September 8, 2021 9:26 PM

[quote]Colonial powers don't automatically "own" the treasures of whatever country they dominate.

Tell that to all the white people who "own" Manhattan.

by Anonymousreply 92September 8, 2021 9:33 PM

Not happening, R62, and with that attitude, no chance it ever will.

by Anonymousreply 93September 8, 2021 9:56 PM

[quote]Why is it some retards feel the need to link American politics into every random discussion on this site?

well fuckface, the brit politicians don't want to return the Parthenon Marbles. And they're big, big fans of trump and the rest of the deplorables.

I like to explain how scuzzy and disgusting the brit politicians are. They LOVE war and they plundering things from other countries. No wonder you think they're so fabulous

They're a bunch of thieving bastards

by Anonymousreply 94September 9, 2021 2:36 AM

r94 You know with people like you I genuinely think Trump won. You must go to bed at night and wake up in the morning thinking about him. there's not a subject so obscure you can't link it to him and write full on paragraphs about how it relates to Trump and the Republicans. But whatever. I'd say I feel sorry for you but this spray tan fueled misery is probably the only thing you have to live for.

by Anonymousreply 95September 9, 2021 7:43 AM

The UK has legal and physical ownership of the Marbles. These are objective facts. All those screaming that what Elgin did was theft and illegal - that is irrelevant in the current situation. The Greek government knows perfectly well there are no legal steps it can take here. It threw money at a law firm a couple of years ago, with Amal Clooney involved, to try to find a legal recourse and the result was a recommendation that the Greek govt try a manifestly dubious mis-use of international human rights legislation, a suggestion that the Greeks took one look at and stuffed in the back of a cupboard. For the Marbles to go to Greece requires negotiation and positive interaction with the UK, putting everything on the table and with no preconditions about ownership. This would make it hard for the Brits to resist and also get round the need for an Act of Parliament. Screaming 'Bastards, give them back' has got nowhere for half a century and will continue to be futile - but, hey, knock yourselves out, keyboard warriors!.

by Anonymousreply 96September 9, 2021 7:50 AM

In that case, France should also return the Bayeux Tapestry

by Anonymousreply 97September 9, 2021 8:05 AM

Melina's case

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by Anonymousreply 98September 9, 2021 8:36 AM

R32, R35 Unesco is a hopeless, toothless tiger.

by Anonymousreply 99September 9, 2021 8:44 AM

Britain...Do the right thing and return these ancient cultural icons to Greece where they rightfully belong and from which they came.

by Anonymousreply 100September 9, 2021 9:40 AM

R100 Molon labe

by Anonymousreply 101September 9, 2021 9:47 AM

They should.

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by Anonymousreply 102September 9, 2021 9:58 AM

r102 And I'd very much like the debt ridden country that's currently on fire to try. Their one attempt at even possibly making Britain think about returning them was during Brexit negotiations and threatening to veto the trade deal. I seem to remember the Guardian suggesting they'd attempt that, but moral pressure on the UK certainly isn't going to achieve anything. Especially when its only really one country in the entire world that cares enough to exert it. You only have to ask Mauritius about Diego Garcia to see that.

by Anonymousreply 103September 9, 2021 10:16 AM

[quote] Do the right thing and return these ancient cultural icons to Greece where they rightfully belong

They rightfully belong to the UK, so there’s nothing to be done except maybe drape the marbles with the Union Jack to make it clear they are never leaving.

by Anonymousreply 104September 9, 2021 12:38 PM

There is no legal requirement to return the marbles. As for doing the right thing - who really gives a shit about morals, its not as though Greece is going to invade. If we can get away with keeping them, then we should.

by Anonymousreply 105September 9, 2021 2:05 PM

Maybe the UK could put the marbles on permanent loan to the Hellenes.

by Anonymousreply 106September 9, 2021 2:56 PM

Finders keepers

by Anonymousreply 107September 9, 2021 3:03 PM

r106 How would that be any different than actually giving them back? No one on either side would be fooled into thinking the Greeks would return them if asked politely.

by Anonymousreply 108September 9, 2021 3:04 PM

R108, it would allow the British Museum to save face.

by Anonymousreply 109September 9, 2021 4:06 PM

[quote] A formal request for the permanent return to Greece of all of the Parthenon Sculptures in the Museum's collection was first made in 1983. There have been various meetings and discussions since then. Media coverage has referred to Greek government requests to borrow the sculptures, but a loan request has never been received.

[quote] The Trustees will consider any loan request for any part of the collection (subject to all our normal loan conditions). Successive Greek governments have refused to acknowledge the Trustees' title to the Parthenon Sculptures.

r109 I mean they're not trying to save face in the first place. But that's a non starter because it would require the Greek government to acknowledge the British Museum as the owners before they ask to borrow them.

by Anonymousreply 110September 9, 2021 4:24 PM

Offer the damn Greeks free admission to the museum whenever they want and be done with it.

by Anonymousreply 111September 9, 2021 4:29 PM

r111 Its already free entry. That and being the main repository for 2 centuries of colonial looting really do make it one of the best museums on the planet.

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by Anonymousreply 112September 9, 2021 4:39 PM

[quote] Britain...Do the right thing and return these ancient cultural icons to Greece

They did do the right thing in rescuing them and preserving them and making them available for the entire world to see. For centuries now.

Seriously had they been in Greek hands all that time they would no longer exist.

by Anonymousreply 113September 9, 2021 4:49 PM

R113 Actually, they fucked up preserving them despite their best efforts. Joseph Duveen, one of the preeminent art dealers who helped fill museums with masterpieces and the ultra wealthy build impeccable collections, offered to finance beautiful new galleries for the Elgin Marbles costings what today would be millions of dollars. He took complete control including have the sculptures cleaned of all traces of pigments, they were originally painted of course, and also had copper brushes and tools scrape off the top surface including chisel marks to make them as pristine white as they could be, irreparably damaging them forever. It was mostly done by the time the curators finally wrestled them back from him.

by Anonymousreply 114September 9, 2021 4:59 PM

Almost all ancient sculptures were cleaned up in modern times (1453+), both marbles and bronzes. Almost all of the Herculaneum and Pompeii bronzes had their patinas stripped and reapplied because their surfaces were too damaged and pitted. This process was really brutal and you can see its effects today. Almost all of them have a modern black patina now. Marbles that were buried in the earth were usually pitted and stained. Up until the 19th century it was customary to heavily clean and repolish them. Most ancient statues had their missing parts restored and matched to their originals. The Italians were very skilled at this. English nobles purchased these and brought them back home to display in their homes. All the paint on the Elgin marbles was not cleaned off, you can still see some. I don't know how much damage Duveen did.

by Anonymousreply 115September 9, 2021 5:28 PM

R115 You can see it very well here at about the 5:00 mark showing the before and after when they stopped him.

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by Anonymousreply 116September 9, 2021 5:48 PM

Nice going, Brits

Send them back before you sand blast them.

by Anonymousreply 117September 9, 2021 9:07 PM

[quote] That’s a great comment to throw in when you have nothing of any value to add to a discussion.

Just like this comment

by Anonymousreply 118September 9, 2021 9:08 PM

I find this no different from Nazis stealing the treasures of wealthy Jews

by Anonymousreply 119September 9, 2021 9:09 PM

R111 Free admission to genuine Greeks not those half-caste Greeks.

by Anonymousreply 120September 9, 2021 9:11 PM

Do Macedonians count?

by Anonymousreply 121September 9, 2021 9:12 PM

r119 I mean Elgin didn't set up a death camp outside Athens beforehand so its pretty different.

by Anonymousreply 122September 9, 2021 9:16 PM

Did the Brits actually create anything themselves or did they just steal everything from their colonies?

by Anonymousreply 123September 9, 2021 9:31 PM

R123 Did you actually create anything yourself or did your parents and all the taxpayers give everything to you?

by Anonymousreply 124September 9, 2021 9:40 PM

Greece was a colony? Also this.

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by Anonymousreply 125September 9, 2021 9:48 PM

R114 Joseph Duveen…chisel marks

You might complain about chisel marks but look at how the shambolic government in Athens is handling the Parthenon. It gets party rebuilt every year because it's disintegrating.

by Anonymousreply 126September 9, 2021 10:10 PM

OP [quote] new Acropolis Museum in Athens

The Parthenon is supposed to be the apotheosis of beauty.

Yet they built a mechanic's mega-shed as ill-formed and asymmetric as a robot trying to jive.

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by Anonymousreply 127September 9, 2021 10:16 PM

I prefer this Parthenon.

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by Anonymousreply 128September 9, 2021 10:21 PM

The UK insists on keeping a lot of shit acquired by shady means during its empire period.

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by Anonymousreply 129September 9, 2021 10:30 PM

[quote] a lot of shit

That belongs in a toilet, not a museum.

by Anonymousreply 130September 9, 2021 10:33 PM

It wouldn’t matter if Greece were the safest and most noble country in the world. Since the marbles rightfully belong to the UK, Greece is never going to get the UK to give them to it.

by Anonymousreply 131September 9, 2021 10:33 PM

[quote] Rubbish! The Turks were OCCUPIERS. They had no right to sell, give away or cede land or national treasurers of the country they occupied.

The United States was occupied first by European invaders and now by invaders from all over the world. Does that mean only the indigenous peoples have a right to this nation's treasures?

by Anonymousreply 132September 9, 2021 10:35 PM

Next thing you know Egypt will want all that old stuff that the British cleared out for them, i.e. broken statues, obelisks, temple bits and pieces, etc.

by Anonymousreply 133September 9, 2021 10:44 PM

Imagine if during the WWII Blitz, a Turkish Ambassador smuggled the St. Edwards Crown out of the UK and gave it to his government for safekeeping because it could be destroyed or taken by the Germans if they succeed, oh and the Brits totally asked him to safeguard it, he swears. After the war, the Brits ask Turkey to give it back because they're safe now and that thing is a really big deal to them. Turkey says nah, we're good, it's ours and you should be grateful.

That's basically what we have here.

by Anonymousreply 134September 9, 2021 10:45 PM

[quote] That's basically what we have here.

That's not at all similar. The Turks never conquered the UK.

by Anonymousreply 135September 9, 2021 10:54 PM

What are you talking about? Greece was not part of the British Empire. Elgin claimed that he was given permission by the ruling Ottomans at the time.

by Anonymousreply 136September 9, 2021 11:03 PM

The famed horses of St Mark in Venice were taken from Turkey .

by Anonymousreply 137September 9, 2021 11:03 PM

Out of interest what would peoples date be for historical theft from hegemonic empires being allowed be? The Elgin marbles have been British for 200 years, there are Egyptian obelisks in Rome that have been there for 2000 years. I'm assuming its some point in-between.

by Anonymousreply 138September 9, 2021 11:12 PM

Everybody should get their stuff back if requested and if they can meet standards to ensure they can protect and preserve them. Unesco will be the overseer

by Anonymousreply 139September 9, 2021 11:23 PM

There's no simple number or one size fits all solution. There are a number of factors to be considered (cultural/other significance, ability to preserve/protect, respective wealth of nations, means of acquisition, extent and intensity of demand in the home country, etc.), and we have the UN as well as a number of international courts and diplomatic means to try and come up with some set of standards and means of adjudication. Also with technology being what it is and with the means to "loan" artifacts even indefinitely, it seems ridiculous to just rest on "well, we took it when we conquered you so it's ours" or "we got it by shady means but so much time has passed tough shit."

The European Court of Human Rights threw out the suit by Greece over the Marbles because the alleged theft was too old, but it's literally a blink compared to the age of the artifacts themselves and the length of time they were in Greece compared to the UK that it just seems an absurd result.

by Anonymousreply 140September 9, 2021 11:28 PM

There is no justification or rationalization for Britain to keep the sculptures any longer. The new Acropolis Museum in Athens is well equipped to house the sculptures for posterity which rightfully belong to Greece.

by Anonymousreply 141September 9, 2021 11:33 PM

[quote] Athens is well equipped to house the sculptures for posterity which rightfully belong to Greece.

Right now, they rightfully belong to the UK.

by Anonymousreply 142September 9, 2021 11:36 PM

British museum, they do return stuff.

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by Anonymousreply 143September 9, 2021 11:59 PM

Most of those Aboriginal artifacts weren't on display though, they had been sitting in storage for decades. The Museum all but admitted they had no interest in keeping them.

by Anonymousreply 144September 10, 2021 12:07 AM

R142. The sculptures do not belong to the UK. Britain stole them.

by Anonymousreply 145September 10, 2021 12:10 AM

What about all those Egyptian mummies in the British museum ?

by Anonymousreply 146September 10, 2021 12:14 AM

r143, It’s not uncommon for museums to get rid of stuff they no longer value by giving them to institutions that want them. The alternative was the rubbish bin.

by Anonymousreply 147September 10, 2021 12:14 AM

The European Court of Human Rights rejected the case to return the Marbles to Greece on a technicality, not on merit.

When the Court hears this case the UK better start packing up the Marbles.

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by Anonymousreply 148September 10, 2021 12:14 AM

r145, they belong to the UK now.

by Anonymousreply 149September 10, 2021 12:15 AM

It’ll only open a can of worms

by Anonymousreply 150September 10, 2021 12:29 AM

The precedent has been set already.

by Anonymousreply 151September 10, 2021 12:31 AM

r148 I mean the fact that that ruling was 5 years ago, that no one in Greece has attempted to start another case since, and the court specifically said "“However, it is clear from the nature of the applicant’s complaints that its underlying grievance is the allegedly unlawful removal of the marbles from Greece. The removal having occurred some 150 years before the Convention was drafted and ratified by the respondent state, the applicant’s complaints would appear to be inadmissible.” and no court is ever going to apply a law retroactively would signal even to the biggest oxygen deprived retard that its a non starter. But carry on hoping if you like.

by Anonymousreply 152September 10, 2021 12:46 AM

Greece has been getting so much shit from the ECHR re refugees over these years it wouldn't be prudent to bring the Marbles case before the Court now Let things cool down. But when? Greece is inundated with refugees and the problems they bring.

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by Anonymousreply 153September 10, 2021 1:09 AM

The Greeks did lots of damage to the statues in their collection. The bronzes have deep cuts and gouges in them where they hacked off the surfaces to smooth them out. They could have done a better job. Don't forget the four caryatids. Elgin took one and it is in pristine condition. The ones left in Athens were destroyed by pollution. All of the sculptures left on the temple were badly damaged by pollution as well and have been almost entirely destroyed.

The horses of San Marco were taken by the Venetians as booty in 1204. The Turks never had them.

by Anonymousreply 154September 10, 2021 1:53 AM

Greece should just teach all those new refugees marble carving skills and have them make a perfect replica of the Parthenon.

by Anonymousreply 155September 10, 2021 2:01 AM

[quote] What are you talking about? Greece was not part of the British Empire

Things were different in the 19th century.

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by Anonymousreply 156September 10, 2021 2:07 AM

Do you know how to read maps or dates, R156?

by Anonymousreply 157September 10, 2021 2:20 AM

Do Greeks still produce classical style marble sculpture?

by Anonymousreply 158September 10, 2021 2:26 AM

Do Greeks produce anything apart from tourist resorts?

by Anonymousreply 159September 10, 2021 2:31 AM

I feel like they ought to be returned. But here's the thing: Will this set a precedent for other valuable artifacts that were looted and now repose in great museums all over Europe and America? Think about it. Jackie Kennedy "rescued" Egyptian artifacts for the Met, before they were flooded and obliterated out of existence. At the time it made sense, but can Egypt now take care of them? And the British Museum has a ton of stuff beyond the Elgin Marbles.

by Anonymousreply 160September 10, 2021 2:31 AM

This would be a great project for part year resident Greek Lindsay Lohan to take up!

by Anonymousreply 161September 10, 2021 2:47 AM

Depending how it was done, it wouldn't necessarily be a legal precedent but a diplomatic one. And that's a necessary discussion. Not every return need be a physical one, there are a variety of ways to approach this.

by Anonymousreply 162September 10, 2021 2:47 AM

R162, please proceed.....

by Anonymousreply 163September 10, 2021 3:02 AM

It's hard to sum up something this complicated, but if a proper tribunal were established with fill jurisdiction to resolve these disputes, there would be legal precedent (and before that some kind of statutory set of standards used to adjudicate the issue). Otherwise you're dealing with mostly political/diplomatic relations which could have some limited precedent but only with regards to how one country deals with multiple requests. So how UK resolves this with Greece diplomatically creates an expectation how they will resolve it with other countries that have these claims.

And not every resolution would have to be immediate and complete physical return. There could be permanent or long-term loans set up with payment attached. There could be a delayed return with a commitment to provide aid to the home country to enable them to care for and preserve the artifacts. There could be exchange programs to allow, for example, more student and research visas centered around studies involving the artifacts. And so on.

by Anonymousreply 164September 10, 2021 3:22 AM
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by Anonymousreply 165September 10, 2021 3:35 AM

^ What is that?

by Anonymousreply 166September 10, 2021 3:37 AM

R166 European museums with looted African cultural heritage. Can’t you read ?

by Anonymousreply 167September 10, 2021 3:46 AM

That object shown in the picture at R165 Is a tremendously valuable decorated metal gallon jug.

by Anonymousreply 168September 10, 2021 4:09 AM

This says most of the marble frieze was designed to be hidden—

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by Anonymousreply 169September 10, 2021 4:17 AM

There are plenty of American museums with African cultural heritage, to say nothing of vast private collections across the world.

by Anonymousreply 170September 10, 2021 11:22 AM

So it’s unfair to only pick on the Elgin Marbles when there are also other looted work of arts.

by Anonymousreply 171September 10, 2021 11:25 AM

It’s all Greek to me!

by Anonymousreply 172September 10, 2021 11:40 AM

It’s all English to me!

by Anonymousreply 173September 10, 2021 11:49 AM

Well, it sort of is, R171. There is also the meaning of the loaded word 'looted'. Nowadays it seems to mean 'anything acquired from any other country in the past in any circumstances whatsoever that someone today sees a political or career advantage in making a fuss about'.

by Anonymousreply 174September 10, 2021 11:59 AM

Is there any way for the UK to help Greece save face with Greece dropping its absurd request for the UK to give away such an extremely important world treasure? Greece has boxed itself into a corner.

by Anonymousreply 175September 10, 2021 2:47 PM

When I travelled to Greece I was surprised at what a poor country it is. But even still, it is rich in archaeological treasures and there were several active dig sites being excavated funded by various foundations and universities. But once those excavations are complete the sites need to be maintained and it is difficult. Yes people travel to Greece, but I don't think Amphipolis, for example, is as popular as the Pyramids in Egypt. So it becomes an international concern. I think the UK needs to come to some sort of arrangement with Greece. maybe to share them or whatever.

by Anonymousreply 176September 10, 2021 3:03 PM

The precedent has been set already. Even the British Museum has returned pieces as mentioned above.

by Anonymousreply 177September 10, 2021 3:27 PM

I think the returned stuff involved human remains, which is a special category of object and aren't regarded as a precedent (there was some unhappiness even with that happening, as the artefacts are apparently going to be destroyed, as 'traditionally' required, even though the evidence for that isn't clear at all). The floodgates aren't going to open. The absolute insistence of Greece on their ownership being accepted from the start means serious negotiation isn't happening - the BM isn't going to cede ownership and then see what then Greeks will then do.

by Anonymousreply 178September 10, 2021 3:41 PM

No, not just human remains

by Anonymousreply 179September 10, 2021 5:37 PM

R177, returning items they basically forgot they had isn't much of a precedent.

by Anonymousreply 180September 10, 2021 6:48 PM

Return them. Return them. There is no rationale to keep them.

by Anonymousreply 181September 10, 2021 8:11 PM

I liked Grease 2.

by Anonymousreply 182September 10, 2021 8:17 PM

R180 It is a precedent. The British Museum shot itself in the foot by returning other pieces .

It's obvious the BM wants to keep the Marbles simply because they are magnificent. They don't seem to mind returning pieces to which they assign lesser interest/value.

As someone stated above the BM should consider making fine copies of the Marbles and send the originals back to Athens.

by Anonymousreply 183September 10, 2021 10:39 PM

Athens can have the copies - they could actually put them back onto the building itself.

by Anonymousreply 184September 10, 2021 10:44 PM

Maybe if hot Greeks refuse to fuck Brits, the marbles will go back

by Anonymousreply 185September 11, 2021 1:54 AM

[quote] Theft is theft. Give it back. Start with the Elgin Marbles.

First let them thieving Vikings give back all the shit they stole from Britain.

by Anonymousreply 186September 11, 2021 1:58 AM

Greece has bigger problems than these old rocks.

Britain already gives a lot to Greece. And cash is more useful than old rocks.

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by Anonymousreply 187September 11, 2021 2:00 AM

Modern Greeks aren't the same people as ancient Greeks. Modern Greeks have a lot of Turkish, Albanian and Bulgarian.

by Anonymousreply 188September 11, 2021 2:16 AM

The Brits will never return them.

by Anonymousreply 189September 11, 2021 2:25 AM

Why doesn’t [italic]GREECE[/italic] give the rest of the Parthenon to the UK?

by Anonymousreply 190September 11, 2021 2:33 AM

R189, probably not, because, in this case, they represent the dark side of humanity—avarice, might-makes-right, contempt for other people.

by Anonymousreply 191September 11, 2021 2:34 AM

Your so-called 'dark side of humanity', R189, represents 70% of the world's population.

Those on the 'bright side of humanity' are Pollyannas, Christians and Lapsed Christians from WEALTHY countries.

by Anonymousreply 192September 11, 2021 2:41 AM

Show me your stats. ^^

by Anonymousreply 193September 11, 2021 2:46 AM

There are wind farms around Nafplio which produce power for Germany, not Greece. They were allowed because Greece had an EU debt to pay off… The EU is terrible for countries like Greece. Greece always gets screwed…There should have been Grexit, a reimposition of the Drachma and a booting of EU regulation and law. Oh and since Greece left no way to really recover those debts… the EU is doing just fine.

by Anonymousreply 194September 11, 2021 2:55 AM

^ Greece always gets screwed because they never pay their debts. Greece has no way to recover those debts so it asks Mrs George Clooney to play at being Miss Moral HighGround.

by Anonymousreply 195September 11, 2021 2:57 AM

R195, the reason the Greeks should leave the EU.

by Anonymousreply 196September 11, 2021 2:59 AM

If the Greeks should have the marbles back then does this mean that the Jews are entitled to the land of Israel, after all it was stolen off them by the Romans?

by Anonymousreply 197September 11, 2021 9:00 PM

Have seen them at the British Museum and frankly was seriously unimpressed as they are just bits and pieces of marble that are in very poor condition. But I do think the best place for them is back in Greece as they are part of their heritage.

by Anonymousreply 198September 11, 2021 9:16 PM

[quote]But I do think the best place for them is back in Greece as they are part of their heritage.

Modern Greeks are not the same people as Ancient Greeks.

by Anonymousreply 199September 11, 2021 9:33 PM

The new Acropolis Museum is perfect to house the Parthenon Sculptures. Give them back.

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by Anonymousreply 200September 11, 2021 10:00 PM

Interior of the new Acropolis Museum which can house, care for and preserve the Parthenon Sculptures:

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by Anonymousreply 201September 11, 2021 10:02 PM

More inside...

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by Anonymousreply 202September 11, 2021 10:04 PM

The new Acropolis Museum stands in the shadow of the Parthenon. One of the reasons the Acropolis Museum was built was to house the Parthenon Sculptures.

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by Anonymousreply 203September 11, 2021 10:10 PM

They are called the Elgin Marbles

by Anonymousreply 204September 11, 2021 10:15 PM

And what will America do about the theft of all the black lives enslaved in service of the building the greatest nation on earth?

by Anonymousreply 205September 11, 2021 10:28 PM

R204. The Greeks do no call them the Elgin Marbles. They call them the Parthenon Sculptures.

by Anonymousreply 206September 11, 2021 10:31 PM

R200, R203 It's an ugly asymmetrical, ill-proportioned industrial shed.

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by Anonymousreply 207September 11, 2021 10:56 PM

And will America return the Hawaiian islands ?

by Anonymousreply 208September 11, 2021 11:03 PM

[quote]And what will America do about the theft of all the black lives enslaved in service of the building the greatest nation on earth?

Let me tell you something. We were slaves in Egypt for three hundred years. And you know what? We got over it.

by Anonymousreply 209September 11, 2021 11:14 PM

[quote]And will America return the Hawaiian islands ?

China would invade in five minutes.

by Anonymousreply 210September 11, 2021 11:14 PM

China is building replica Hawaiian Islands in the South China Sea.

by Anonymousreply 211September 11, 2021 11:23 PM

Is that you Mililani Task at r208? Still love you, gurl.

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by Anonymousreply 212September 11, 2021 11:27 PM

Can we have the Gibraltar Rock back too ?

by Anonymousreply 213September 12, 2021 3:16 AM

I want the Island of Corfu back.

by Anonymousreply 214September 12, 2021 3:18 AM

España, are you ready to give back Ceuta?

by Anonymousreply 215September 12, 2021 6:04 AM

All nations have stolen off each other, it is unfair to single out Britain and the Elgin Marbles.

by Anonymousreply 216September 12, 2021 6:17 AM

Hardly. Unlike, say, the island of Corfu, the Parthenon Marbles were created by the Greeks and can readily be transported back to Greece. It’s not as if anyone lives on them. They’re just things sitting in a museum.

by Anonymousreply 217September 12, 2021 6:23 AM

If Greece really wants the Parthenon to be reunited with the Elgin Marbles, then Greece should send the Parthenon to London. They won’t because their demand is based on getting tourist dollars to come to Athens.

by Anonymousreply 218September 12, 2021 6:29 AM

Did Prince Phillip give an opinion ?

by Anonymousreply 219September 12, 2021 6:33 AM

^ Phillip swore allegiance to Britain.

I'm sure he didn't follow the current woke fashions for indecision, multi-nationalism and hatred for one's country.

by Anonymousreply 220September 12, 2021 6:36 AM

In other words he betrayed his Greek ancestry

by Anonymousreply 221September 12, 2021 6:38 AM

He wasn't ethnically Greek at all.

by Anonymousreply 222September 12, 2021 6:39 AM

Interesting

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by Anonymousreply 223September 12, 2021 6:39 AM

Until those greasy wops recognise Marie Chantal as their rightful Crown Princess, they deserve nothing! NOTHING!!!

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by Anonymousreply 224September 12, 2021 7:02 AM

Greeks aren't wops, you fucking ignorant asshole

by Anonymousreply 225September 12, 2021 7:09 AM

R225 Greeks aren't wops

What are Greeks?

by Anonymousreply 226September 12, 2021 7:13 AM

[quote]What are Greeks?

Q. ...or more precisely, Who are Greeks?

A. The Founders of Western Civilization

by Anonymousreply 227September 12, 2021 7:23 AM

Fauvel: The Frenchman Who Vied with Elgin for the Parthenon Marbles

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by Anonymousreply 228September 12, 2021 7:24 AM

So are the French returning those Louvre pieces too ?

by Anonymousreply 229September 12, 2021 7:27 AM

The art of filthy pederasts deserves no place in public!

We need more classical trans art...

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by Anonymousreply 230September 12, 2021 7:39 AM

R229. France should return the Parthenon marbles. These are artifacts that were ripped off the greatest building of the ancient world and in the history of Western Civilization.

by Anonymousreply 231September 12, 2021 7:51 AM

Using history as our guide, we can assume the French will surrender the sculptures rather than fight, but the British will never surrender theirs.

by Anonymousreply 232September 12, 2021 10:06 AM

[Quote] First let them thieving Vikings give back all the shit they stole from Britain.

Britain doesn’t want that shit back

by Anonymousreply 233September 12, 2021 12:38 PM

Greeks aren’t wops, they’re just greaseballs.

by Anonymousreply 234September 19, 2021 2:14 AM

Isn’t this resolved yet, I thought this thread would straighten the whole thing out?

by Anonymousreply 235September 19, 2021 2:41 AM

Goddamn English thieves. Give 'em back, motherfuckers.

by Anonymousreply 236September 19, 2021 2:42 AM

More accurately we should call them the British Marbles

by Anonymousreply 237September 19, 2021 2:45 AM

[quote] Greeks aren't wops, you fucking ignorant asshole

Of course Italians and Greeks are related. Southern Italy and Eastern Sicily were colonized by ancient Greeks, who founded many cities there.

The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors.

by Anonymousreply 238September 19, 2021 2:48 AM

“The Parthenon Marbles” should be a very British animated show that teaches kids about Greek Mythology in an exciting and comedic way.

by Anonymousreply 239September 19, 2021 2:51 AM

[quote] The Marbles need to stay where they are safe.

Greece opens a huge new holding camp to house 3,000 migrants as it prepares for a wave of Afghan refugees fleeing the Taliban.. New holding camp in Samos, Greece, is the first of five new facilities to open. It comes as more than 42,000 asylum seekers entered Greece in August alone

by Anonymousreply 240September 19, 2021 3:13 AM

Send them back!

by Anonymousreply 241September 19, 2021 3:16 AM

If you have never been to Greece, or to Athens, and have never climbed up to the top to actually walk around the vast area and observed the magnificence if the Parthenon, then you can't possibly understand the importance of the issue. The UK really must return the marbles. They really must. The Parthenon IS Greece. And every single day those panels are absent, is a silent rebuke to the greed and arrogance that keeps the building in a state of ruin, albeit a magnificent ruin.

by Anonymousreply 242September 19, 2021 3:40 AM

If only the Turks hadn't blown up the Parthenon.

by Anonymousreply 243September 19, 2021 3:42 AM

A well-known expression among Greeks and Italians: "One Face / One Race"

”Una Faccia, Una Razza”: The Fascinating Story of Greco-Italian Bonds

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by Anonymousreply 244September 19, 2021 3:42 AM

Greece–Italy relations

Greece and Italy enjoy special and strong bilateral diplomatic relations.

Greeks have lived in southern Italy (Magna Grecia) for millennia, and today are called Griko. There are also Italians in Corfu.

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by Anonymousreply 245September 19, 2021 3:46 AM

But according to Datalounge, Southern Italians are all Africans!

by Anonymousreply 246September 19, 2021 3:54 AM

[quote]Did Prince Phillip give an opinion ?

[quote] Phillip swore allegiance to Britain.

The late Prince Phillip may have been born in Greece, but there wasn't a drop of Greek blood in him. So his connection with Greece and any feelings for the country of his birth and its history are tenuous at best.

Prince Phillip's grandfather George I of Greece, was Danish, born in Copenhagen as Prince William of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, younger brother of Queen Alexandra, wife of Edward VII. William became King George I via election by the Greek National Assembly. George I's wife, Prince Phillip's grandmother, was Grand Duchess Olga Constantinova of Russia, who had very distant Greek ancestry. While both George I and Olga learned Greek, when alone, they spoke German to one another.

Prince Phillip's father, Prince Andrew of Greece (and Denmark) refused to speak anything but Greek with his Danish/Russian parents, served as an officer in the Greek Army in both the Balkans and Greco-Turkish Wars. Prince Andrew married Prince Phillip's mother, Princess Alice of Battenburg, a German princess born in Windsor Castle and raised in Great Britain. She spoke both English and German, studied French and learned Greek after her marriage to Prince Andrew.

Prince Phillip may have learned a few words of Greek as a toddler, but due to his family's rather precarious existence between being exiled from Greece and his father abandoning his family and going off to the south of France with his mistress, he was far more comfortable in English and French.

Phill

by Anonymousreply 247September 19, 2021 5:01 AM

Who is better? Greek men or Italian men?

Is nose size indicative of member size?

by Anonymousreply 248September 19, 2021 5:47 AM

I am Italian of Greek origin. We come from Magna Graecia region of Italy descendant from the Aechaeans. We've done pretty thorough research, and it seems to me in general, that the story of the Greeks and the Italians from that region is simply been one tribe displacing another and and they migrate and displace some other tribe. My father was a swarthy man, and I believe that strand comes from the region we know today as Turkey but back then was part of Greece. My Father's family are all beautiful, but crazy. My mother's family are more patrician looking but ruthless.

by Anonymousreply 249September 19, 2021 1:13 PM

I'm also Italian with no Greek ancestry as far as I know. But I absolutely love the legend that Rome was founded by Trojans who escaped the siege of Troy, specifically Aeneas. The idea of refugees escaping what was essentially a genocide and going on to create what would eventually be a bigger and more lasting empire than their conquerors is just so satisfying.

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by Anonymousreply 250September 19, 2021 2:29 PM

Britain continues to believe that whatever it go when it was a world power belongs to it.

Greece was never part of the British Empire but Britain sent out explorers and archeologists all over the world to spread Britain’s influence.

by Anonymousreply 251September 19, 2021 5:21 PM

I think the goal of the British Museum was to build an institution that would house and collect artifacts and treasures from all over the world that would chronicle the development of human civilization in a way never done or conceived of before. The Elgins were just one example of shit they have from all over the world from various eras from the dawn of civilization and all though the ages. I can't really think of any other world institution like it.

by Anonymousreply 252September 19, 2021 9:59 PM

What about the Smithsonian?

by Anonymousreply 253September 19, 2021 10:03 PM

R252 They were able to pull that off in the early 1980s they were still a global imperial power.

by Anonymousreply 254September 19, 2021 10:10 PM

R254 I meant early 1880s.

by Anonymousreply 255September 19, 2021 10:10 PM

Ha ha early 1800s.

by Anonymousreply 256September 19, 2021 10:10 PM

R252 You weaken your argument when you use phrases like—

[quote] one example of shit

by Anonymousreply 257September 19, 2021 10:41 PM

[quote] What about the Smithsonian?

Go fuck yourself! USA! USA! Finders keepers. USA! USA!

by Anonymousreply 258September 19, 2021 11:35 PM

Give 'em back!

by Anonymousreply 259September 20, 2021 12:20 AM

[quote] I think the goal of the British Museum was to build an institution that would house and collect artifacts and treasures from all over the world that would chronicle the development of human civilization in a way never done or conceived of before.

The goal of the British Museum was to display the spoils of empire.

by Anonymousreply 260September 20, 2021 3:19 PM

Some of you may find this event of interest.

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by Anonymousreply 261October 6, 2021 9:00 AM

BREAKING NEWS: UNESCO calls on UK to return Parthenon Marbles to Greece

The United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) has called on Britain to return of the Parthenon sculptures from the British Museum, according to Greek Minister of Culture, Lina Mendoni.

“Together with the recommendation that was issued – referring to the poor conditions of exposure that the sculptures are kept in at the British Museum – Greece also achieved a decision from the Intergovernmental Committee that pertains specifically to the return of the Parthenon sculptures,” she said a day after the 22nd session of UNESCO’s Intergovernmental Committee for Promoting the Return of Cultural Property (ICPRCP) ended in Paris.

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by Anonymousreply 262October 6, 2021 10:00 AM

R261 I knew some of the sculptures were painted, but I didn't know that almost all of them were.

by Anonymousreply 263October 6, 2021 11:30 AM

Unesco Board members. Taken as a group these are not people to trust with majority rule over the cultural treasures of mankind,

Afghanistan (2019-2023) Albania (2017-2021) Argentina (2019-2023) Bangladesh (2017-2021) Belarus (2017-2021) Benin (2019-2023) Bulgaria (2017-2021) Brazil (2019–2023) Burundi (2017-2021) China (2017-2021) Cuba (2017-2021) Democratic Republic of the Congo (2019-2023) Dominican Republic (2019-2023) Egypt (2017-2021) Equatorial Guinea (2017-2021) Ethiopia (2017-2021) Finland (2017-2021) France (2019-2023) Germany (2019-2023) Ghana (2019-2023) Grenada (2017-2021) Guinea (2019-2023) Hungary (2019-2023) India (2017-2021) Indonesia (2017-2021) Italy (2019-2023) Jamaica (2017-2021) Japan (2017-2021) Jordan (2017-2021) Kenya (2019-2023) Kyrgystan (2019-2023) Madagascar (2017-2021) Morocco (2017-2021) Myanmar (2019-2023) Namibia (2019-2023) Netherlands (2019-2023) Pakistan (2019-2023) Philippines (2017-2021) Poland (2019-2023) Portugal (2017-2021) Republic of Korea (2019–2023) Russian Federation (2019-2023) Saint Lucia (2017-2021) Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (2017-2021) Saudi Arabia (2019-2023) Senegal (2019-2023) Serbia (2019-2023) Spain (2019-2023) Switzerland (2019-2023) Thailand (2019-2023) Togo (2019-2023) Tunisia (2019-2023) Turkey (2017-2021) United Arab Emirates (2019-2023) Uruguay (2019-2023) Venezuela (Bolivarian, Republic of) (2017-2021) Zambia (2017-2021) Zimbabwe (2017-2021)

by Anonymousreply 264October 6, 2021 11:41 AM

Wow, r264. I see a few countries on the list that might be impartial, like maybe Portugal, but the others make it a sham. Who thinks that any former colonies or previously occupied countries are going to be fair?

by Anonymousreply 265October 6, 2021 12:07 PM

R265, they'll be just as fair to Britain as Britain was to them...

by Anonymousreply 266October 6, 2021 12:14 PM

[quote] I see a few countries on the list that might be impartial, like maybe Portugal, but the others make it a sham. Who thinks that any former colonies or previously occupied countries are going to be fair?

Really?

Isn't that like saying, no black man should ever be on a jury for a trial of a white man?

by Anonymousreply 267October 6, 2021 12:18 PM

R266. Right on.

by Anonymousreply 268October 6, 2021 12:32 PM

[quote] I see a few countries on the list that might be impartial

By every objective measure, Britain must return the marbles.

Every excuse Britain has given (Greece is unstable so they'll be in danger; Greece doesn't have a proper place to display them) has been rectified. Britain has run out of excuses except for one: We get to keep what we stole.

by Anonymousreply 269October 6, 2021 1:00 PM

r262 So the exact same thing they've been saying since the 60s. Cool. We'll just carry on as before then. I mean not even the Guardian is reporting this and complaining about the wrongs of imperialist Britain is like crack to them.

by Anonymousreply 270October 6, 2021 1:15 PM

This is a well done historic overview and covering of the current situation.

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by Anonymousreply 271October 8, 2021 8:04 PM

Elgin did the right thing but taking down the marble and transporting them to England. England did the right thing by holding on to them and protecting them while Greece was unstable,

Now, England should do the right thing and return them.

by Anonymousreply 272October 8, 2021 8:13 PM

If the British Empire was so evil (and in many ways it was) we should start by arranging the disposal of its greatest legacies: The United States should be given back to those native American tribes which were not wiped out. New Zealand back to the Maori, Canada back to the First Nations, Australia back to the Aborigines.

Let’s deal with these issues first and then, after the pre-Empire indigenous populations decide which waves of invaders and migrants they want to expel in order to reinstate the pre-Empire state of territorial possession, we can move on to who gets the statues, paintings and ornaments from the great museums.

by Anonymousreply 273October 8, 2021 8:24 PM

The big issue is that if you return them, it sets a precedent and EVERYTHING should be returned to the original country. That's a huge problem so that's the real reason why they aren't returned. I doubt anyone really thinks that they alone are that important or desirable to keep in the UK.

by Anonymousreply 274October 8, 2021 8:30 PM

It would be difficult for the UK and Greece to have a dialogue on the sculptures when Greece has not yet acknowledged the BM’s legal title to them. Before Greece can discuss having the UK give the sculptures to it, it needs to acknowledge that the British Museum has legal title.

by Anonymousreply 275October 8, 2021 9:56 PM

[quote]If the British Empire was so evil (and in many ways it was) we should start by arranging the disposal of its greatest legacies: The United States should be given back to those native American tribes which were not wiped out. New Zealand back to the Maori, Canada back to the First Nations, Australia back to the Aborigines.

{quote]Let’s deal with these issues first and then, after the pre-Empire indigenous populations decide which waves of invaders and migrants they want to expel in order to reinstate the pre-Empire state of territorial possession, we can move on to who gets the statues, paintings and ornaments from the great museums.

R273. Regarding addressing the grievances you named, we can walk and chew gum at the same time. The world can deal with multiple issues at the same time. We don't have to do things in chronological order simply because you've decided that's how you would deal with it. Especially because your solution is no solution at all and completely illogical. Greece has to wait until the the Australians and Aborigines--a half a world away--resolve their unrelated differences?! Don't be utterly ridiculous and stupid. That's like saying we have to solve Middle East peace before we address COVID-19 vaccine resistance because the Middle East came first. One has nothing to do with the other.

Secondly, Greece has nothing to do with how how the U.S. treated Native Americans or how the New Zealand treated the Maoris or how Canada treated the First Nations or how Australia treated the Aborigines. Why should Greece wait to discuss the ownership and historical and cultural significance of its treasures with Britain regarding an issue concerning the removal of the Marbles from the most significant building in Western Civilization? The simple answer is Greece shouldn't have to wait. Get real.

by Anonymousreply 276October 8, 2021 10:50 PM

R275

"It would be difficult for the UK and Greece to have a dialogue on the sculptures when Greece has not yet acknowledged the BM’s legal title to them. Before Greece can discuss having the UK give the sculptures to it, it needs to acknowledge that the British Museum has legal title. "

That's pretzel logic. It's like claiming that the art and family heirlooms that the Nazi's stole from the six millions Jews they had murdered during the thirties and forties belong to the Nazi regime.

by Anonymousreply 277October 9, 2021 3:48 AM

R277, that is not an apt comparison.

Nazis! LOL

by Anonymousreply 278October 9, 2021 4:45 AM

Yes it’s so horrible that a first world wealthy country saved and preserved ancient art that is critical to the history af ALL mankind. Because leaving it in the hands of poor, unstable, chaotic Middle Eastern territories would have been so much better.

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by Anonymousreply 279October 9, 2021 12:37 PM

So much safer in Eastern hands

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by Anonymousreply 280October 9, 2021 12:39 PM

There is a double standard: When African countries demand their down treasures be returned, they're ridiculed. When another European country does the same, it is righting a crime made against humanity.

by Anonymousreply 281October 9, 2021 1:10 PM

R278, well, there's no evidence, beyond Elgin's say-so, that the Ottoman Empire, then occupying Greece, gave Elgin permission to cut down part of the Parthenon, damaging the temple in the process. Elgin produced what purported to be the English translation of an Italian copy of the original order . . . and it didn't look very convincing. No copy of the alleged order exists in the extensive administrative records of the Ottoman Empire.

by Anonymousreply 282October 9, 2021 2:01 PM

R277 I think the point of recognising the legality of the British Museum's ownership is that it would then give the UK the 'largesse' to gift the marbles back to Greece without setting the precedent that anything from another country should be returned. Also, your Nazi analogy is stupid as well as unhelpful (Godwin's Law).

by Anonymousreply 283October 9, 2021 2:58 PM

R279 Here's a reconstruction model of what the sculptures of the frieze of the Parthenon looked like originally. Half of the surviving sculpture are in the Acropolis Museum, although worse for the wear.

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by Anonymousreply 284October 9, 2021 3:02 PM

R283, I don’t see why such a fig leaf would be necessary. If anything, suggesting that invading countries can legally to sell off the artistic heritage of any country they occupy would be a bad precedent.

by Anonymousreply 285October 9, 2021 3:13 PM

R285 Guess you're not a realpolitik type - the UK is going to keep the marbles then. And it's not just the UK. Museums in Berlin, in Vienna etc. are stuffed full with artefacts of similarly 'dubious acquisition'.

by Anonymousreply 286October 9, 2021 3:20 PM

This belongs to Iraq," reads the poster held by Iraqi student Zeidoun Alkinani at the Babylonian Ishtar Gate in the Pergamon Museum of Berlin.

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by Anonymousreply 287October 9, 2021 3:34 PM

R286, I thought my point was practical: it's one thing to humor British pride, but formally recognizing the dubious legality of the acquisition would be something other countries could exploit.

Everyone knows that museums all over Europe and the US are stuffed with plundered items. The Pandora Papers just highlighted that many Cambodian items now in the Metropolitan Museum in New York were looted and then sold on the basis of documents that the museum should have known were forged. It's not a problem that is going to go away, or one that can be easily solved. But that is not a reason for refusing to return part of the Parthenon.

by Anonymousreply 288October 9, 2021 3:49 PM

R288 Bluntly it is, because it would be a diplomatic nightmare for politicians. If the UK returns the Parthenon marbles, then how is a politician is going to be able to say with a straight face that they can't return the Rosseta stone to Egypt, or the Koh-i-Noor diamond to India? Both countries want those items back. Do they view Egypt and India as lesser than Greece? If your argument is that they should return everything, okay, but I find it hard to see that happening too because the British Museum is proud of their collection.

by Anonymousreply 289October 9, 2021 3:54 PM

Yeah r287 bring it back to politically unstable and religiously fanatic Iraq where Muslim puritans will blow it up in name of Allah

by Anonymousreply 290October 9, 2021 4:28 PM

Something to consider

[quote] In the U.S., a basic principle is that a thief cannot pass good title, not even to a good faith purchaser, nor can anyone further down the chain of ownership. Therefore, a good faith purchaser can be forced to surrender an artwork without any compensation to the original owner, absent a valid defense, such as the expiration of the statute of limitations.

[quote] By contrast, the civil codes in most continental European countries are more favorable to good faith purchasers, who may acquire good title to stolen artwork after a prescriptive period, that is, the passage of time, which can be a short period.

[quote] Therefore, as art owners and their heirs (including claimants of art looted during the Nazi era) come forward, sometimes after many decades, to claim property from good faith purchasers, courts are confronted with difficult questions that are complicated by choice of law and statutes of limitation, and must decide legal title to the work as between the original owner and heir on one hand, and a good faith purchaser on the other.

by Anonymousreply 291October 10, 2021 3:32 AM

R291 Funny that the US has those laws but conveniently judges rule that there's no evidence the art was looted. The US doesn't want to lose their collections either.

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by Anonymousreply 292October 10, 2021 3:47 AM

Thanks, R292. But pay wall. Can you cut & paste please? TIA.

by Anonymousreply 293October 10, 2021 3:58 AM

R293 Archived it for you (see link)

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by Anonymousreply 294October 10, 2021 4:09 AM

[quote]Museums in Berlin, in Vienna etc. are stuffed full with artefacts of similarly 'dubious acquisition'.

Art dealers and museums across Europe turned a blind eye to acquisitions they knew the Nazis looted from Jews. Such as Klimt's Portrait of Adele Bloch Bauer, which Bauer's elderly niece fought the Austrian government for a decade to have returned to her.

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by Anonymousreply 295October 10, 2021 4:22 AM

R293, thank you so much.

Granted I just read the article and no the actual case, but that case isn't applicable at all to the marbles.

[quote] Citing the 1906 Ottoman Decree, which asserts broad ownership of antiquities found in Turkey, the government said the idol had been wrongfully removed from its territory and should be returned. On Tuesday, Judge Alison J. Nathan of Federal District Court in Manhattan issued a written decision, citing evidence presented during a bench trial in April and ruling against Turkey.

[quote] “Although the Idol was undoubtedly manufactured in what is now modern-day Turkey, the Court cannot conclude based on the trial record that it was excavated from Turkey after 1906,” she wrote, adding that even if Turkey had established ownership it had “slept on its rights” and taken too long to make a claim. In her decision Judge Nathan said the stargazer was notable for its “size and near-mint condition” and that it was “among the most exceptional examples” of its sort in existence. There seemed to be scant question that the stargazer had originated in Anatolia, but Judge Nathan wrote that “where the Idol traveled to after its manufacture is more of a mystery,” adding that such items were probably traded or exchanged.

[quote] Turkey argued that there was no evidence that such idols had traveled beyond Anatolia and that the stargazer could be inferred to have been excavated there. But Judge Nathan wrote that there was “insufficient evidence” to support that view. Although it may be impossible to trace the idol’s path over thousands of years, records show that it surfaced in New York in 1961 . . . “There is no evidence in the record to establish where he [the buyer] first encountered the Idol, how the Idol came to be in his possession, or when and how he brought the Idol to the United States,” she added.

[quote] Turkey, seeking to bolster its case that the idol had been looted, wrote in its court papers that the Met’s former director, Thomas Hoving, once referred to Mr. Klejman as being among his “favorite dealer-smugglers.” Judge Nathan countered that “Hoving’s memoir does not reveal much about Klejman’s specific trading practices” and placed more emphasis on the idol’s visibility after arriving in New York.

[quote] It was exhibited in the Met’s permanent galleries from 1968 through 1993, Judge Nathan wrote, with very few interruptions. She added that it had also been widely discussed in various writings starting in the 1960s and was mentioned in Turkish publications by academics with connections to the Ministry of Culture. The public display of the work, along with its publication history, gave Turkish officials the opportunity to make a claim of ownership, Judge Nathan wrote.

In other words, you snooze you lose.

by Anonymousreply 296October 10, 2021 4:23 AM

R296 Lol, that's so convenient because I'd bet nearly every artefact has expired the statute of limitations. Including the Parthenon marbles, if the UK did have that statute of limitations.

by Anonymousreply 297October 10, 2021 4:27 AM

Wait, the UK does seem to have it?!

[quote]As an attorney, my position is troubling: Greece does not have a strong legal argument for restitution. If Lord Elgin did not receive the proper permit for the marbles’ removal, then the British Museum could not have purchased legitimate title. However, there are time limitations for bringing suit. The Greek government has been aware of the removal for nearly two centuries now, and they never filed suit against Elgin or the British Museum. The statute of limitations may stop any lawsuit from moving forward. Still, while the legal answer may not support restitution, the moral solution is to return the marbles. The carvings are a symbol of the Greek people—their violent removal distanced the objects from their legitimate home.

So it comes down to a moral argument.

by Anonymousreply 298October 10, 2021 4:31 AM

Both the US and the UK reject the moral argument in terms of returning stuff. They cling to 'statute of limitations' as an excuse. Germany won't return stuff either. France won't return stuff either. It's all about cultural capital.

by Anonymousreply 299October 10, 2021 4:36 AM

Why was it considered a violent removal? It seems to me the near total destruction of the remaining temple was the real violent removal of artifacts from Greece.

by Anonymousreply 300October 10, 2021 4:36 AM

[quote] a basic principle is that a thief cannot pass good title

Yes, if the British Museum currently were not to have legal title, how could it pass good title to Greece or anyone else? If someone wants good title, they need to acknowledge that the museum has it to give.

by Anonymousreply 301October 10, 2021 9:50 AM

The Big Point: if Lord Elgin hadn't taken the marbles, there wouldn't be any marbles left. They would have been stripped by peasants and used for their lime kilns, and what not. Look what happened to Antinoöpolis, the city founded in the name of Hadrian's boyfriend. Completely obliterated for those reasons. The Greeks don't have a leg to stand on in their claims.

by Anonymousreply 302October 10, 2021 10:35 AM

I surprised how many good people here think that they should be returned. I do not think that. We should start fresh, now. You can't go back and fix history, and a lot of people don't want to. Black Americans don't want to go back to Africa, they just want to be treated well now. European Americans don't want to go back to Europe, they just want to be treated as they are and continue as Americans.

Museums are collections where we can see all kinds of things at once, and can learn about art and history from all kinds of places without traveling to all of those places.

The past is the past.

by Anonymousreply 303October 10, 2021 4:28 PM

Give the Marbles back to Greece. It's the right, honorable and legal thing to do.

By the way, I'm the OP of this thread. This is a topic very much of interest to me. However, I never dreamed that it would illicit so many responses from others. I appreciate the lively and diverse discussion.

by Anonymousreply 304October 10, 2021 11:24 PM

Mmmm some countries never have the shit pushed onto them like others. Who ever talks about the Aegina Marbles ?

These Marbles were taken from the Temple of Aegina , the second most impressive Temple in Greece and was sold to the highest bidder in 1812. Britain tried desperately tried to get it for the British Museum but Bavaria got there first and they have been held in Munich ever since. They were also heavily restored but now are in their original form.

Do we yell about those? Does anyone feel compelled with moral outrage over these at all? Cause the Germans aren’t giving them back anytime soon and basically no one asks them too.

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by Anonymousreply 305October 11, 2021 1:00 AM

R287 Yeah but they just can't be trusted to be reasonable custodian. Those people are bat shit crazy and I don't think they are down with our people.

by Anonymousreply 306October 11, 2021 1:39 AM

[quote] I surprised how many good people here think that they should be returned.

They just repeat what they are told to believe.

by Anonymousreply 307October 11, 2021 2:17 AM

EXACTLY!

by Anonymousreply 308October 11, 2021 2:29 AM

The galleries have reopened and public opinion has begun to sway.

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by Anonymousreply 309December 16, 2021 1:00 AM

Why is this old fuck actor embroiling himself in this?

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by Anonymousreply 310May 1, 2022 1:45 PM

They should go halfsies.

by Anonymousreply 311May 1, 2022 3:21 PM

Yikes, hope some diehard nonreturners can shut this down.

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by Anonymousreply 312May 19, 2022 3:51 AM
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