How do you find motivation when depressed?
Meds and therapy aside.
I mean, how do you find ways to get out of bed, do things around the house, exercise, talk to friends, take care of yourself, etc?
I get into periods where I spend the whole day in bed, and it only makes my depression worse. If I could only find a way to take the first step and do something productive, I think things would change. But ... too often, that first step feels impossible.
|by Anonymous||reply 137||December 1, 2021 1:09 PM
Schedule activities like exercise so they become routine.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||July 31, 2021 2:49 PM
OP you’re not alone. I’ve been having the exact same problem the last few weeks. I’m already on medication and talk therapy has never worked for me, and I simply have no motivation to do anything. I was proud of myself just getting out of bed to get a shower yesterday because my energy is gone.
|by Anonymous||reply 2||July 31, 2021 2:53 PM
OP - may also be because of how the pandemic and horrible hot summers have mentally drained all of us. I am leaving for Amsterdam tomorrow and literally wanna stay in bed...all day. I am on autopilot because this is also one of those days I just want to sleep...all day. I have lots of days exactly like that. I force myself to go to the local coffee shop or at least a store 2 minutes from me. Seriously the buzz of life helps.
|by Anonymous||reply 3||July 31, 2021 3:00 PM
Qigong, because it’s something you can do, even while paralyzed in bed.
By focusing on your breathing, you can, eventually, summon up enough energy to get up, and do it properly, among other things.
|by Anonymous||reply 4||July 31, 2021 3:01 PM
Self-hypnosis: You prepare yourself to do one task for 15 minutes.
Cognitive therapy: Learn to recognize self-downing thoughts and turn them off.
Changing your inner voice so it resembles how you would talk to someone you love and cherish.
Applaud yourself every step of the way.
|by Anonymous||reply 5||July 31, 2021 3:11 PM
Cleaning can really turn things around.
Years ago I was seeing a therapist. I went to her house and her husband, also some kind of "alternative" therapist was there and she wasn't - I must have said how desperate I was feeling and he said "Go clear out a drawer".
Also gratitude...which can be real tough if you're feeling very sorry for yourself...but try it.
|by Anonymous||reply 7||July 31, 2021 3:19 PM
To actually get out of bed in the morning? Needing to pee.
To stay out of bed: making my first cup of coffee. I don’t even like coffee that much but there’s something about the act of preparation that I find satisfying.
The next thing is knowing that I will have a good breakfast. Not something grudgingly dutiful like oatmeal but smoked salmon and cream cheese on a bagel! Or whatever indulgence you can come up with.
Yes I am motivated by food.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||July 31, 2021 3:22 PM
You have to just schedule your routines and follow it everyday until said routine sticks and pulls you out of your funk. It takes time and effort. None of that sports psychology I have to lay in bed and hide because of my fragile mental health shit that poor Naomi and Simone Biles have been fed. You work on things you have control over, and that is following your set routine taking it one day and one hour at a time. Ive been there, enablers did me more harm than good. I am not even religious, but the best thing I learned from therapy is the Serenity Prayer. Read up on stoicism.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||July 31, 2021 3:26 PM
It’s nice to see DL being wholesome from time to time. I experience low moods like this too, a lot OP. We often think motivation is what pushes us to do activities, it’s actually the other way round, actions inspire motivation. As the others have suggested, initially sticking to a routine helps, even if it’s baby steps.
|by Anonymous||reply 10||July 31, 2021 3:39 PM
I know it sounds strange, but I agree with R7. I have been depressed for the past year, but hiding it from everyone around me. My house is a mess, and I would never want to invite anyone over to visit. But I do feel a sense of control when I can go through some of my stuff and throw things away, and organize what I have. It makes you feel like you have control over something, especially when it seems like the world and the people in it are not giving you what you want.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||July 31, 2021 4:05 PM
I know this is completely counterintuitive when you don’t want to get out of bed, but even the smallest bit of exercise can help, just roll out of bed and do a few sit-ups, a few pushups, even right by the bed.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||July 31, 2021 4:11 PM
Get off Datalounge and other online timewasters. Stop watching **BREAKING NEWS**. Get a shower. Get some caffeine. Get a haircut. Get some hobbies, interests, projects...
How can we teach you how to live?
|by Anonymous||reply 13||July 31, 2021 4:16 PM
No advice but glad to know I’m not alone with this.
|by Anonymous||reply 14||July 31, 2021 4:20 PM
You guys are wonderful - I have been so depressed and worried - over something’s real and somethings imagined - I have let the last few months slip by. I am pacnicked over finances, my mom’s health, etc . I’ve been trying to sort through her papers and bills - I am alarmed at her mental decline. I have surprised myself by so far not stepping up and rising to the occasion - I feel shut down and it has made it worse. I HAVE to clean the house today - usually I enjoy cleaning the house. Plus I have put on weight - I hate that. Basically - I have been my own worst enemy. If I was looking at myself from the outside I’d think Jeez - get up,! Okay - I’ going to go make coffee, put on the Office Marathon and start cleaning. If I can get a few days going in a new direction I hope I’ll snap out of it. …. This was the perfect thread to read this morning - it makes me feel less alone! Thank you!
|by Anonymous||reply 15||July 31, 2021 4:21 PM
Do you, or can you, have a pet, OP? They help a great deal.
I adopted a dog about eight months ago. She is big and rambunctious and rather stupid, and I can’t help but laugh at her all the time. It’s the little things she does. I have to get out of bed and take her out for walks, bathe her, etc. I’ve met some really nice people at the local dog park.
When it comes to cleaning, get a good book with goals that you can check off. It really does help. These books will take you room by room, drawer by drawer. Make three piles—keep, donate, toss.
I still struggle, no doubt. But between the dog and a cleaner house, it feels manageable.
|by Anonymous||reply 16||July 31, 2021 4:35 PM
OP, you have a lot to deal with. No wonder you feel overwhelmed. Can you make lists to help you mentally address things you need to take care of with your mom? Putting it down in writing can help take you out of the endless mental loop of everything you know you need to do but haven’t done yet.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||July 31, 2021 4:49 PM
I think r17 was for r15, not OP (I'm OP)
In any event ... I am going to make up a schedule tonight and try to stick to it in the coming days
Thanks for the suggestions everyone
|by Anonymous||reply 18||July 31, 2021 9:41 PM
I have been battling this shit since childhood, and of course it’s so much harder with the declining world/US situation. You are not alone. Come back when you need us. Many of us truly get it. xo
|by Anonymous||reply 19||July 31, 2021 9:45 PM
Adderall and pseudoephedrine. The combo will have you painting every house in your neighborhood.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||July 31, 2021 9:47 PM
Lower expectations. Take one step after another. Doesn't have to be even what people consider to be 'normal'. Just lower expectations and find shortcuts e.g. if you're too depressed to even shower, use wet wipes. Make things as easy as possible for yourself.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||July 31, 2021 9:52 PM
I have one more tip, mostly because this is something that is overdue for me right now.
Sometimes you just need to cry. I have a tendency to put it off, thinking I don't have time for it. But I can tell that sometimes it builds up then keeps me in a state of nervous procrastination and depression ... it affects my sleep, my appetite, everything. So every once in a while, I need to do some intense journal writing, and cry, yell, or fight, and really feel the feelings that are holding me back. When I first did this I was in my late 20s and it was scary, because I thought I was losing control. But after continuing to do it, I realized that it was just my feelings coming out and I did not need to judge them, I just needed to feel them. I tend to do it several nights in a row right before going to bed. By the third or fourth night, my body is relaxed enough that I sleep through the night and wake up feeling rested.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||July 31, 2021 10:43 PM
A bit of good sativa. Euphoric energy and focus.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||July 31, 2021 10:48 PM
Fingers crossed that tomorrow is better
Hang in there, everyone
|by Anonymous||reply 24||August 1, 2021 2:06 AM
The shortened days of fall/winter always depress me and zap my motivation
|by Anonymous||reply 25||November 6, 2021 4:02 PM
I'm more depressed than I have been in over a decade. I feel like my life and my mind are fallong apart. You're probably doing better than I am right now, OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||November 6, 2021 4:05 PM
What's wrong, r26, if I can ask?
|by Anonymous||reply 27||November 6, 2021 4:07 PM
Just stop aiming for big things which can be overwhelming. Break things down into small pieces - the basics, lower expectations, find shortcuts, make a simple and doable plan for the day that won't overwhelm.
|by Anonymous||reply 28||November 6, 2021 4:11 PM
R27 It's a lot. I've posted about it elsewhere and people tend to attack me. My biggest problem right now is my job. After I advocated stongly for my boss to get a major promotion and helped him with various things, he got it and then suddenly turned on me, becoming condescending and insulting and worse. He has said things to me that are borderline illegal. I've worked with him for over a decade and I'm honestly in a state of cognitive dissonance, wondering if I am crazy or what my options are. My therapist made me take two weeks off work because of my state of mind (She says I am justified in how I am feeling but that I am too reactive right now.) so I have been off for two weeks on FMLA leave. I go back on Monday. I don't kmow what I should do. I told the HR director the basics of what my boss has said and done and she told me to think about filing a formal complaint, which would trigger an investigation and that would cause a shitload of drama.
I'm freaking out. I've applied for a dozen jobs and I never get even an interview. I'm very worried about my professional prospects, but I also have a serious health condition and I need medical insurance. I am supposed to go on an expensive biologic medication within the month, and there's no way I would be able to do that without my insurance. I have significant hearing loss in my left ear whose severity fluctuates and right now I am almost completely deaf in that ear with loud tinnitus, and that is a major contributor to anxiety.
I used to have a lot of mood fluctuations and I would become depressed and have suicidal thoughts often. That stopped years ago thanks to various therapies. I recognize that how I am feeling right now is coming largely from external factors plus my reactions to them, and not from a mood disorder, and I have no suicidal ideation right now but I also don't really want to be alive. I'm fed up with life. I'be been sick for so long. I have few friends. After four years of Trump, losing my mother, the pandemic and now this bizarre betrayal by my boss and my inability to find another job, I just don't feel cut out for this world. I'm not that much of a fighter. I can't battle through shit at every turn in life. I'm worn out. I'm beaten down. I've completely lost my appetite. I am losing weight rapidly.
I just went back on Zoloft after a decade, which I hate because it makes me an emotionless zombie. But I have to go back to work next week and I'm going to have to take the edge off my emotional reactions.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||November 6, 2021 4:25 PM
[quote] The shortened days of fall/winter always depress me and zap my motivation
You mean ‘sap’ your motivation. Sapping, like sapping or ‘draining’ a tree.
And I feel the same way. There’s nothing worse than cold weather and darkness at 5pm (or 4:30, depending how far east you are in any Standard Time zone!).
|by Anonymous||reply 30||November 6, 2021 4:28 PM
R29, I’ve read your other posts on the site so I know what work situation you’re talking about.
Have you considered taking microdoses of psilocybin? I have suffered from bouts of serious depression (some more serious than others) for half my life, and nothing snapped me out of the way microdosing did. I started it early this year because of the microdosing mushrooms thread on this site. Within 2 days I was like a different person. I’m on Zoloft, too, and it doesn’t really do anything for my depression and anxiety; I just continue to take it because quitting it is too hard.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||November 6, 2021 4:31 PM
R31 I wouldn't know where to get it. I don't know people with those kinds of connections.
I would considering trying it. It has been decriminalized here in D.C., and I have had occasional cluster headaches, aka "suicide headaches," and psilocybin is the only known effective treatment.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||November 6, 2021 4:36 PM
For the past 18 months, unless I have an appointment or shopping to do, I get up at 7, put in a 6-8 hour workday from home and then go back to bed until 7 am the next day. I’ve lost all motivation, I’m sick of people and the news and I’m happy doing this until I die.
|by Anonymous||reply 34||November 6, 2021 4:40 PM
R31/R33 I too have been considering trying microdosing but don’t know where to get the stuff (in the U.K.). Is there some kind of underground market, or do you have to just find someone IRL and give a secret symbol? (aware these sound like Rose Nylund questions, sorry—just don’t know where to look!)
|by Anonymous||reply 35||November 6, 2021 4:45 PM
If it’s been decriminalized in D.C. (has the law been signed into effect yet?), it should be easier to get there than just about anywhere else. You can order online from vendors—I know there are a few in Colorado.
I’ve been ordering mine from a Canadian retailer for the last year. Though when I last ordered from them (a month and a half ago?) they weren’t taking credit cards, only Bitcoin etc., and I actually had to mail them cash. It worked without a hitch, though.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||November 6, 2021 4:54 PM
If you cannot get out of bed, the first thing I would do is reevaluate my medications. OP, I know you said meds and therapy aside, but if you are so depressed that you can't get out of bed, I would imagine that there is a serious chemical imbalance going on. If you are on meds, you might need to reevaluate. I do know some depression can be helped with a mild stimulant or an antidepressant with a stimulating effect like Wellbutrin (not recommending, just what I've heard). I've been in really low places and before any progress can be made, I needed to stabilize myself so that I could do the basics like keep a stocked fridge, clean house, clean laundry. When you have all basics taken care of and are on meds that are working, you can build upon that. If you have the money and you feel too overwhelmed to clean your place and are not a hoarder, hire a cleaning lady to get the house into shape and then you can just maintain that. For the severely depressed, I know you don't want to hear this, but I would say exercise is crucial. This is the cornerstone to my mental health. The gym, meds, therapy, getting a full 8 hours of sleep, eating healthy foods are the pillars of mental health. One final thing, just do ONE thing each day. That's all. It could be go the store and then you can go back to bed or take a youtube meditation class and back to bed.
If you don't have any $$$$ there are services for the LGBT community depending on where you live. When my health insurance was cut, I was depressed verging on hopelessness, and was broke, the LGBT Center in my area saved my life getting me back on meds, therapy, and helped me turn it all around. Good luck!
|by Anonymous||reply 37||November 6, 2021 7:01 PM
Totally agree with *everything* R37 said. I would just add microdosing shrooms or LSD to it. Haha.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||November 6, 2021 7:41 PM
Thanks r37. That was really helpful
|by Anonymous||reply 39||November 6, 2021 7:44 PM
Wim Hof breathing-- you can do it from bed.
|by Anonymous||reply 40||November 6, 2021 7:44 PM
[quote] Lower expectations. Take one step after another. Doesn't have to be even what people consider to be 'normal'. Just lower expectations and find shortcuts e.g. if you're too depressed to even shower, use wet wipes. Make things as easy as possible for yourself.
Agree with this except the shower / wet wipes thing. Get in the damn shower and soap up.
|by Anonymous||reply 41||November 6, 2021 7:56 PM
Agree with breaking down tasks into the smallest of pieces. Back in my school days, if I had a writing assignment, I'd work on the mindless stuff, like table of contents.
If you have to do laundry, just start by sorting the laundry. Get your quarters together (for the laundromat). Do yourself a favor and get maybe $40 of quarters for this time and the next time, etc.
Open your fridge, dump things that are old, things you realistically won't eat. Put things into smaller containers. Etc.
Good luck, OP, and to the rest of us who are struggling.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||November 6, 2021 7:59 PM
^^ And do a very cold rinse for the last 15- or 30 seconds of that shower. Another component to Wim Hof’s techniques. Some people swear by the cold showers as a depression preventative.
I don’t know if they really helped me. I’ve done Wim Hof breathing for the past year, and have taken a lot of cold showers. What WH does best for me is calm my anxiety, improve my voice (yes, really), and made me more focused mentally. But I guess lots of meditative breathing does that.
I also like this chick and her videos a lot, especially this one —
|by Anonymous||reply 43||November 6, 2021 8:00 PM
I hear you OP.
I force myself to take a walk every day. I’m hardly ever in the mood to do it. I listen to music while walking and try to just daydream. I always feel slightly better while walking and then depressed again when I get home.
Sending you a hug.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||November 6, 2021 8:04 PM
Massage can be nice. Sometimes touch therapy can be very helpful. It's experimental and my only experience was recreationally in my raver days not for approved use, but I keep hearing about the miracles of ketamine therapy. Like life changing. I've also heard microdsoing shrooms is also a huge thing. I'm not sure the validity. Unfortunately, I think you need to have major money for these treatments.
|by Anonymous||reply 45||November 6, 2021 8:07 PM
Most depressed people are ruled by choices.
Do I stay in bed or get up & do some laundry?
You need to be ruled by time.
Write down all of the things that you have to do & estimate the average time you can do them.
On a low NRG day, pick the tasks that have you sitting in a chair on lying in a bed (balancing your check book or folding clothes).
On higher NRG days, do those tasks that have to be done out of bed like taking out the trash or sweeping your floors.
Clean freaks can clean 24/7 it seems but the rest of us need to be ruled by something other than "Do I feel like doing this or indulging myself by going back to bed?" Folks who live alone indulge their selfish (& lazy) interests more than those with roommates, spouses or kids who want food, clean clothes, etc.
On a good day you will feel better about all the things that you can get done in less than 10 minutes & the amount of task that can be done in a single day (perhaps a rainy or snowy one) like changing your clocks for DST, changing the batteries in your smoke detectors, cleaning one ceiling fan, etc.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||November 6, 2021 8:08 PM
[quote] You need to be ruled by time.
In my experience, paying close attention to time is anxiety-causing if you're already depressed. I'd be more focused on the task at hand and not rushing yourself. IMO, rushing yourself is being mean to yourself. So many other people in our lives rush us, why not be kind to yourself.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||November 6, 2021 8:12 PM
Sorry R47 I didn't say to rush yourself (did you not read the tasks I suggest 1 could do in a chair or even in bed?).
Some internet sites have alarm clocks where they will go off every 10 minutes, 30 minutes, etc.
I use those to make sure I sweep a 5 minute room good & don't overdo it or underdo it based on my mood.
|by Anonymous||reply 48||November 6, 2021 8:16 PM
Try neurotherapy. It is relatively new, but is used for vets with PTSD. I know many who swear by it.
|by Anonymous||reply 49||November 6, 2021 8:16 PM
Also R47, if it takes 2 hours for you to balance your checkbook on average then you shouldn't try to cram it in under an hour.
If you live alone & it takes on average 20 minutes for you to fold (or roll up) your clothes than don't try to get it done on a 10 minute day.
A day with 2 hours of tasks can get you 24 things accomplished (at 10 minutes each) if you pick the right tasks & don't try to mow your 2 acres in just 10 minutes of time.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||November 6, 2021 8:21 PM
R29, yup, that sounds difficult -- a catch-22. Your stress is contributing to your health problems -- especially the one you need the 'biologic medicine' for (I'm guessing it's a gut-related issue) -- yet you have to go back and work for/with the same asshole.
Try as much as possible to realize that his bitchery is really not about you, it's about him and HIS emotional problems. He's yelling at himself, projecting, and would do it no matter who was working under him.
You're stronger than you think, just try not to take what he says personally. And give yourself credit for the things you're accomplishing (which may seem minor right now, but are still positives). One step at a time...
|by Anonymous||reply 51||November 6, 2021 8:22 PM
^ that should say 12 tasks (not 24). I'm going back to bed myself here soon & catch up on some of my sleep. :)
|by Anonymous||reply 52||November 6, 2021 8:23 PM
Do qigong regularly.
Because it’s something you can do anywhere, including in bed, that means even on the worst day, you can breathe and meditate until you have enough energies to kick of the sheets and make that tentative move to jump in the shower.
And you just continue breathing mindfully while the hot water brings you further back to life
|by Anonymous||reply 53||November 6, 2021 8:29 PM
Can you recommend a good qigong video for an absolute beginner, R53?
|by Anonymous||reply 55||November 6, 2021 8:33 PM
R55: try this.
When she says ‘dan tian’, she’s referring to the ‘lower dan tian’, which is slightly below the navel. You can think of it as a field, or cluster of Qi/Primeval energy, and you can feel it with your palms
|by Anonymous||reply 56||November 6, 2021 8:50 PM
I was terribly depressed and my bf told me " just keep putting one foot in front of the other" sounds simplistic but it worked !! Its easy to remember and inact
|by Anonymous||reply 57||November 6, 2021 9:13 PM
I have a chronic low-grade depression, and sometimes procrastination can get the better of me, but at the same time I decided to make it okay.
I have a class assignment due tomorrow morning and I just completed it. Some of my classmates who turned in the assignment days ago think that I put it off to the last minute. But the truth is that I worked on it incrementally over the past several weeks, a little bit at a time, meeting twice with the professor to discuss, reading and finding resources, and "sleeping on it" to discover that my thoughts would move forward when I gave them time to develop. It's not the most efficient way to get creative work done, but it's how my brain works now, and I don't like to be rushed and turn in a piece of crap. I did not start working on this assignment yesterday, so cut me some slack. (But it may be true that I used my need to work on the assignment as my excuse to not socialize with them...)
Anyway, that's just my way of saying that I can relate to this thread and I invite all of you to hang in there and I am with you.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||November 7, 2021 3:53 AM
Thank you, R51. I will try that. I'm anxious about going back on Monday.
And the biologic medication isn't for a gut issue specifically. I have something called mast cell activation syndrome; it's an immunological disorder that causes severe allergic symptoms/anaphylaxis. It can affect the gut, but for me it's mainly my lungs, upper airway and throat, sinuses and skin. I currently take four antihistamines and a leukotriene inhibitor (usually prescribed for asthma) daily and my immunologist thinks the the monthly biologic shot, Xolair, may work better and replace all those medications. It's usually used for severe asthma and supposedly is a lot less dangerous than biologics used for gut issues, which can compromise immunity.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||November 7, 2021 10:23 AM
I've managed to get a few small tasks finished today, but I'm still behind.
|by Anonymous||reply 60||November 7, 2021 10:34 PM
Maybe so, R60, but you are further ahead than you were. Try not to undermine your progress, you've taken three small steps forward. That's good!
|by Anonymous||reply 61||November 8, 2021 1:54 PM
You need help OP. I know how you feel and the only thing you have to firmly keep in mind is that episodes don't last forever. It WILL get better. Take care that you get enough sleep if you have panic attacks. If necessary, take a beta blocker. Ask a friend to keep you company and hold your hand. (And yes friends like this exist.) If you cannot deal with the absolutely essential stuff like showing up to work or paying bills etc., be upfront about it and don't risk entering a downward spiral.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||November 8, 2021 2:02 PM
talk to your psychiatrist about adderall. It really works for some people. If you're sluggish and having trouble motivating to do basic life chores (let alone advancing your life), a low dose of adderall might help. Either for a short period or a longer period. There are newer drugs that also have a stimulant effect and more that will come in the next decade.
You can also try out the regular adderall vs. the extended release adderall and see if one works better for you. Adults can take up to 40mg of regular adderall per day but you might find yourself properly sped up with as little as 5mg taken once or twice per day. And that 40mg is probably new dosaging guidelines because i think 10 years ago, they said an adult could take up to 80-100mg.
When taking it, you need to take two consecutive days off per week. that clears the brain receptors and allows the current dosage to keep working. Gives the body and brain a break. Otherwise you could find yourself escalating the dose to get the same effect. I stayed on a stable dosage for 15 years by doing that.
Talk to your doctor. See what he or she says. And be willing to play with dosage a bit. Try 5mg in the morning and 5mg at lunch. Try 10 mg just in the morning. If you have trouble waking up and are sluggish for the first few hours after waking (very common with ADD), try setting your alarm for 90 mins before you are actually getting up, take the adderall, and go back to sleep. When its time to wake up, you'll be UP. Try the extended release. This is about what makes you the most productive person possible and you'll know based on your experience.
Yes these drugs can be abused. When used as intended, they can work wonders.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||November 8, 2021 4:46 PM
I’m R16, the owner of the big dumb dog who STILL makes me laugh every day. Please reconsider getting a pet, even a cheery, silly parakeet would bring a ray of sunshine in your life. People can suck, but animals can give you unconditional love that you need in your life right now.
I honestly would be much worse off, mentally, without my dog. Today I forced myself to do some light cleaning. I took her blanket out of her kennel to wash it. I left it on the floor of the laundry room because I already had a load in the washing machine. She grabs it, runs down the hallway, across the den, and tries to stuff it back in her kennel. It turns into a tug-of-war with her growling like the ferocious beast she is (not).
Caring for an animal who depends on you is rewarding. I still take my medication and daily walks. I still have some really bad days, sometimes, but if I focus on her I find that I don’t beat myself up quite as badly as I used to. Love to you, OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||November 8, 2021 6:43 PM
It helps me to remember that it's 3 steps forward and 2 steps back.
What you are able to do one day, you might not be able to do the next day (so don't feel disappointed).
|by Anonymous||reply 65||November 8, 2021 7:40 PM
I have a list of daily non negotiables for myself. Shower, dishes, wear clean clothes. Anything after that is negotiable (for a while anyway).
|by Anonymous||reply 66||November 8, 2021 7:50 PM
It seems that there are a lot of people in the same boat. I hadn't posted before in this thread, but I'm having the same problem getting out of bed in the morning. I get as far as taking a shower and start to feel better, but as soon as I step out of the shower and dry off, I want to crawl back into bed. I have been moderately depressed all my life, but the last year has been particularly bad. I was laid off from a job I had for many years. The layoff was due to COVID, but it really did a job on my self-esteem. The lack of employment, low self esteem and the depression have just made things look hopeless. Not end-it-all hopeless, but just overall exhausted and lacking any kind of motivation. Does anyone have any suggestions?
|by Anonymous||reply 67||November 8, 2021 8:27 PM
R67, not trying to be a wise-ass here, but do you make your bed in the morning? (Straighten out the bedding and pillow(s)?) If your bed is made, that might be a deterrent to going back in there (until nighttime).
Also, sorry to hear you have lost your employment.
Did you have any projects that you "never had the time" to do before? Can you do a small project?
|by Anonymous||reply 68||November 8, 2021 8:31 PM
Thanks, R68. Making the bed does sound like a good idea. Oddly enough, I have a copy of that book, "Make Your Bed" (or something similar to that), but never got around to reading it. I'm sure there are some small projects that I could work on, too. I'll try to make a list of things I have been meaning to do. That might help me. Thank you.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||November 8, 2021 9:07 PM
Bathe and get dressed and DRAG YOURSELF OUTSIDE!
I do this even if all I can manage is a ten-block walk to get a cup of coffee, sit somewhere sunny, and then return home. At least you've gotten out of your PJs, gotten some vitamin D, maybe run into someone you know and walked a little over a mile. Do it every day. It helps a lot!
|by Anonymous||reply 70||November 8, 2021 10:04 PM
R67 - agreed - make your bed. I would do the exact same thing if my bed wasn't made. Also force yourself on a walk. I have been VERY down these past few months (and I'm on Wellbutrin) but I force myself to walk every day.
I feel like all we can do is try to maintain a routine of things we know will help (i.e. getting out of bed, taking a walk, showering, etc). Beyond that, I don't know. I'm lacking motivation to engage with people and find joy in the stuff I used to. I'm 42 and I just feel OLD. I don't know.
Sending my fellow DLers in the same boat some love.
|by Anonymous||reply 71||November 8, 2021 10:19 PM
[quote]agreed - make your bed.
In AA meetings, certain members say certain things so often, they become their personal AA slogans. One guy used to talk about how he made his bed every morning, because no matter how rotten a day he might have had, he could come home to the joy of a freshly-made bed. He said this so often, other members began to quote the gospel of the Freshly-Made Bed.
And then he committed suicide. No one ever spoke again of having made their bed that day.
|by Anonymous||reply 72||November 8, 2021 10:35 PM
Oh lord R72.
I don't have any joy re: a freshly made bed - I just do it to prevent myself from getting back in.
|by Anonymous||reply 73||November 8, 2021 10:42 PM
I find spite really gets me fired up.
|by Anonymous||reply 74||November 9, 2021 12:02 AM
Find something/ someone outside of yourself to focus on. Could be a pet, volunteering for a cause close to your heart, etc…. The more you focus inward the more you’re likely to wallow in this semi-depressed state.
Also important is getting some form of exercise regimen going, and sticking to it. It’s not easy but make it a part of your life and you’ll start to see rewards physically as well as mentally.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||November 9, 2021 12:16 AM
When I'm depressed, I invariably gain weight. The only thing that motivates me is sleep and food.
|by Anonymous||reply 76||November 9, 2021 1:39 PM
[quote] touch therapy can be very helpful. It's experimental and my only experience was recreationally
That’s an interesting suggestion.
Suspect that touch deprivation is something that is negatively contributing to my lethargic unmotivated state, but being an avoidant virginal single adult who doesn’t cope well with having personal space invaded by strangers, there’s not much I can do about it.
Atm I self massage (especially scalp) often as I can, and I cuddle my dog too, but while both give a bit of temporary relief it’s not enough to make me feel fully settled and safe as an embodied being. It’s like having a persistent sore emotional blister that won’t heal.
Though I get regular brief little hugs from female relatives, I haven’t been properly held by another person since I was a kid, and I haven’t ever been romantically touched at all. All this didn’t used to bother me when younger (I was terrified of intimacy), but now I’m in my prime so to speak it just makes me feel really out-of-step with humanity.
The person I’ve confided this to has suggested getting a masseur or an escort, but as a younger woman in the social climate we’re in I do not feel safe to do that, what with COVID as well as the sex-work/massage industry being what it is (a few weeks ago on the news, a masseuse finally got arrested after years of covertly filming his female clients). Suppose I could pay a female to help me out, but as I’m woman-leaning bi I worry about keeping hands to myself etc.
It’s just a lot of extra stress running in the background of my already quite battered life, as I’m not doing much of anything in terms of finance, career or social life either (living off crumbs and leftovers tbh).
|by Anonymous||reply 77||November 10, 2021 12:16 PM
I've been depressed lately, and in an ironic twist the lawyer I've consulted has been dragging out finalizing my proposed will (not that complicated).
|by Anonymous||reply 79||November 10, 2021 11:59 PM
Keep putting one foot in front of the other. Hang in there, we are pulling for you. You CAN do it !
|by Anonymous||reply 81||November 11, 2021 12:15 AM
Sometimes I can get motivated enough by the idea of jerking off
|by Anonymous||reply 82||November 11, 2021 12:31 AM
I'm not suicidal -- just depressed -- but last night I had a very vivid dream that I was walking along the Golden Gate Bridge and I was afraid to get too close to the railing for fear I'd jump off
|by Anonymous||reply 83||November 11, 2021 1:27 AM
R63, are there any side effects to taking a *low* dose of Adderall? I’m on 100mg of Zoloft which doesn’t really do anything for me at this point, have an anxiety disorder and have to watch it caffeine intake, and generally have a lot more adrenaline than I could ever need. But I’m very low energy at this point in my life (42, stopped going to the gym 5 years ago, got extremely lethargic during Covid, and was addicted to kratom for 6 years, still coming out of that haze).
But there are clear goals I have, and projects I want to work on which I can hardly ever push myself to finish. I’ve always been sort of ADD my whole life, but more and more I’m becoming convinced I have a touch of Asperger’s (so I am capable of becoming really obsessed with something and focusing on nothing else… it’s just that I tend to self-sabotage).
Sorry for the long winded post. Just wondering if I sound like someone who would benefit from Adderall. I’ve never wanted to take anything “speedy” (caffeine is bad enough), and have never tried coke, etc. My boyfriend has had Rxs for Adderall in the past, but he and I are pretty different, so I don’t see any point in asking his advice. Haha.
|by Anonymous||reply 84||November 11, 2021 1:32 AM
I take 2 hour walk/jogs in a beautiful public park. Working up a sweat always makes me feel better.
|by Anonymous||reply 85||November 11, 2021 1:39 AM
Are your bowels moving? Probiotics help.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||November 11, 2021 2:12 AM
[quote]Are your bowels moving? Probiotics help.
Thank you, Nana.
|by Anonymous||reply 88||November 11, 2021 2:53 AM
Head over to the mushrooms threads, seriously. Microdosing has completely changed my life.
|by Anonymous||reply 89||November 11, 2021 3:16 AM
The day before I set a few goals for myself. I’m retired so I set a time that I must get out of bed. Exercise really helps with depression. I swim. Depending on the weather, I try to spend time outside daily. It can be as simple as sitting outside with a book and ice tea. Do things that nurture you. Cook a nice meal. Watch an interesting movie. Read a book. Soak in the tub. Be good to yourself.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||November 11, 2021 3:50 AM
Anyone else super fatigued and a bit depleted by darker days?
|by Anonymous||reply 91||November 11, 2021 4:00 AM
I try to read…anything light and escape worthy. Or if that is too much, I listen to an audiobook. It helps get me out of my head. Make a frozen kale and pineapple smoothie-helps with mood and the pineapple’s vitamin c speeds absorbing of nutrients.
|by Anonymous||reply 92||November 11, 2021 4:06 AM
R91 - Do you mean overcast days (yes!) or days when the sun sets extremely early (before 5pm)?
I get depressed on any overcast day—there’s basically nothing I can do about it, except go somewhere with no windows so I can’t see how gray it is outside.
During Standard Time, when the sun sets between 4:30 and 5:30, I feel like productivity just ends with sundown. It feels like “nighttime” — the day is over, and things are supposed to start winding down. After a few months of that, I start to feel pretty seriously depressed. Though last year I didn’t feel it so much because I discovered microdosing mushrooms at the end of January.
This year I’d like to add exercise to my regimen to really give myself a boost.
But yes, darker days have been depressing to me my whole life.
|by Anonymous||reply 93||November 11, 2021 4:09 AM
R84 don’t mess with adderall - it is extremely addictive and most psychiatrists won’t prescribe it. If the Zoloft isn’t working, talk about switching to another non-habit forming medication or changing your dosage.
|by Anonymous||reply 94||November 11, 2021 4:14 AM
also, get full spectrum bulbs and a full spectrum mood lamp. follow the directions of the mood lamp.
|by Anonymous||reply 96||November 11, 2021 4:26 AM
I have a dog, a terrier, that needs a lot of walking. It gets me out and in the sun every morning.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||November 11, 2021 4:28 AM
Ugh, terriers are among the WORST, R97. My condolences.
|by Anonymous||reply 98||November 11, 2021 4:30 AM
Get yourself a "I deserve nice things" mantra to be ready for such occasions. Make it "small" things, like "I deserve to smell clean and pleasant, I deserve to have a delightful breakfast, I deserve to wear fresh and clean clothes, I deserve to live in a clean home, I deserve ..."
Depression is about the frustration of feeling defeated or overwhelmed by conditions around you (bad business or romantic relationships, a big pile of chores, a daunting doctor's appointment, money issues, etc.). You need to turn the focus from bad and negative conditions around you to your calm, (it may not look like that at the time) resilient self who can handle stuff. Starting with small things you can control and change for the better, like your personal hygiene. The long-term goal is to create and attract conditions around you that make you feel good and make you feel competent and adequate, giving you the courage and stamina to handle challenging conditions and consider every outcome a victory (even a fail as a valuable learning experience).
A lot of people get depressed, because they focus on things they can't control, because there are too many uncontrollable conditions involved and then get severely frustrated, because all the moving parts don't deliver the desired outcome. And that also includes romantic relationships where a partner doesn't do the things he's supposed to do, even after so many times of nagging and scheming. By seeing yourself as a failure for not getting what you expected, you are setting yourself up for more failure and a defeatist attitude (what's the point? It will end in tears anyway!).
|by Anonymous||reply 99||November 11, 2021 7:36 AM
R29 You are going to be great. You are really self aware and know to seek help and you listened to you therapist. You're doing good. That Zoloft is going to kick in and you will feel better and best of all it will help you put things in perspective and find a plan for coping with them one at a time. Maybe a lower dose would do the trick after a while once you are a better footing. And if you feel tired, I wonder if you can drink a strong coffee midday. Sounds too simple to even mention, but when I went on Zoloft I had to up my caffeine a bit because I felt like I was dragging ass from time to time.
|by Anonymous||reply 100||November 11, 2021 7:43 AM
Just turn that frown upside down and smile the day away!
|by Anonymous||reply 101||November 17, 2021 2:09 PM
It's always a kind of 'fake it 'til you make it' thing for me: I have to push myself to take the first step toward doing something constructive. Small, large, it doesn't matter. Cleaning a small mess or organizing an area of the house that has been bugging me works. Going out for a walk ('just 15 minutes!') always works: moving the body is key, I think. Showering and washing my hair helps. I always tell myself that if, after 15 minutes, I don't feel better, I can go back to blobbing out and feeling sorry for myself. That rarely happens.
|by Anonymous||reply 102||November 17, 2021 2:19 PM
I'm not driven to the gym but exercise does help. Playing sports and outside activities helps. A bike ride with someone else (making it a commitment beause I will blow it off myself if I'm depressed) helps with accountability or setting up a sports game with mulitple peope always helps (tennis doubles 4some). They play like crazy so it gets me out of the cycle of bored, disinterseted and depressesed.
|by Anonymous||reply 103||November 17, 2021 2:20 PM
Someone mentioned a pet which I think is a good idea. I can't have one but I really have gotten into watch clips of them.
This guy in particular gets me out of my funk.
|by Anonymous||reply 104||November 17, 2021 2:32 PM
R92: kale and spinach block vitamin C absorption.
|by Anonymous||reply 105||November 17, 2021 2:32 PM
I need encouragement, bitches. I'm extremely depressed, but I need to finish writing an article in the next ten days.
I'm making a plan tonight for what I'll do each day. Hopefully, it helps.
|by Anonymous||reply 107||November 23, 2021 11:22 PM
I am someone who hardly ever is depressed but strangely have fallen into one recently. I am not sure why except i just had a birthday and am approaching 70. I do wonder if sticking around for the great decline is really worth it. Any tips anyone? And i doubt anyone will want my stuff in case you were going to ask.
|by Anonymous||reply 108||November 23, 2021 11:27 PM
I am in a funk lately too.
For getting out of bed, putting on a podcast I want to listen to helps me. I can’t just sit there and listen to it for some reason, I need to be doing something with my hands, so it gets me cleaning or at least up and walking around my house.
|by Anonymous||reply 109||November 23, 2021 11:34 PM
Break it down into steps. Step one: get vertical. Everything seems more overwhelming when you’re horizontal. Just getting up changes how you perceive the world.
One step at a time.
|by Anonymous||reply 110||November 23, 2021 11:44 PM
[quote] I am someone who hardly ever is depressed but strangely have fallen into one recently. I am not sure why except i just had a birthday and am approaching 70.
Be careful, R108, my mom never was depressed ... until she was ~ 65. Not just depressed, but suicidal. Get help if you feel like you're sinking.
This sounds like a weird suggestion, but do you have your things in order? Will, trust, advance health care directive?
On the other hand, why not enjoy a simple pleasure? I'm assuming you're retired. Take a walk outside. Eat some chocolate. Re-read a good book.
|by Anonymous||reply 111||November 23, 2021 11:50 PM
[quote] but I need to finish writing an article in the next ten days.
What kind of article R107? Are there any no-brainer parts of the article you can write, to get started?
|by Anonymous||reply 112||November 23, 2021 11:52 PM
r112 literary criticism, basically. I've been avoiding reading a pile of articles that I need to incorporate into it. (I'm pretty confident in my primary texts, although I'll probably reread them too.) My plan is to unplug from the internet tomorrow and Friday and spend both days reading and taking notes. I think it will help me feel productive (and less panicky about finishing the article)
|by Anonymous||reply 113||November 23, 2021 11:58 PM
I've never taken antidepressants before and my doctor prescribed me temazepam (benzos) for some sleeping issues and mild reoccurring anxiety problems. I know people here generally look down upon benzos, why is that?
|by Anonymous||reply 114||November 24, 2021 12:08 AM
I find listening to cheering old Hollywood musical songs helps a lot. One of my favourites is Shakin' the Blues Away. Here's the Ann Miller version...
|by Anonymous||reply 115||November 24, 2021 12:14 AM
And here's the Doris Day version...
|by Anonymous||reply 116||November 24, 2021 12:15 AM
I live in the country & now retired. I get up early, before daylight. After attention to the needs of my pets, I get dressed, watch a bit of the news, mostly some Morning Joe, and drive down to a nearby dinner and have coffee and breakfast, while reading the thin daily newspaper. Then I do the errands and whatever shopping is due. My partner sleeps late, lounges in the morning, then goes to work.
Get up early, do an active routine. Get out of the house.
|by Anonymous||reply 117||November 24, 2021 12:24 AM
Wow, this thread really just helped me. I couldn’t figure why I’ve been finding it so tough motivating myself to continue with any projects and why I’ve been shutting myself away and not really wanting to communicate with anyone. I knew I didn’t feel good, but I guess I have a touch of depression. Given the terrible shit I’m having to face in my life (I’m 42 and fighting stage 4 cancer), I guess it’s little wonder. I generally try to make the best of it all, and have never found it easy to be vulnerable around others, but inside I’m totally down and demotivated. Some of these comments have actually really helped…and just knowing that it’s …well…it’s ok to be depressed. That’s rather a revelation to me actually. Maybe sometimes we need to give ourselves permission to feel what we feel and not make it a crime.
|by Anonymous||reply 118||November 24, 2021 12:25 AM
Sorry to hear about your stage 4 cancer, R118. That sounds like a lot to handle.
|by Anonymous||reply 119||November 24, 2021 12:36 AM
Jesus Fucking Christ, r118, give yourself a break. "Stage 4" can mean different things for different types of cancers, but it generally means that you are dying and should be in hospice care and not trying to shake away the blues like a Doris Day dancing number. If you can find the energy, get in the shower, then put on a ski mask. Go rob a bank and fly to Tahiti and down a few Mai Tai's. Take down a few Republican politicians. Have a ball!
A few years ago, I spent 4 years dealing with colorectal cancer -- which I've survived so far. At the time, I recall not being able to get out of bed much for days (mostly due to pain, chemo, and recovery from multiple surgeries) but did have 3 cats who would "motivate" me to get out of bed. It was a combo of depression and profound pain. Didn't want to see anyone except on rare, good days.
Prior to cancer, I did have simple depression at times. The first step was to get out of bed. The next step was to bathe, at least in some form -- even if it took all day to get there.
Another simple act was to turn on radio, NPR (depressing itself at times), or put on some music. Any kind of noise to get me de-isolated from within my head.
The next step would be to walk the 50 feet to the mailbox to marvel at all the junk mail, which meant going OUTSIDE, which sometimes led to chatting with neighbors and even seeing daylight. Sometimes that would lead to picking up around the house, which always made me feel better. Having a shot of espresso with my opiate before a shot of Vodka for the days I did make it out of bed always held promise for the day. Just a suggestion.
IMHO, depression, regardless of the cause, is best handled with modest starting goals.
|by Anonymous||reply 120||November 24, 2021 1:25 AM
Appreciate the comment, R120 and really glad you got better! Long may that continue. I also have colorectal cancer, although it’s spread to both my lungs so they don’t consider it operable. Been off treatment for a few months to see how it goes, and I’m doing ok physically, but I guess the stress of uncertainty and not knowing how things are progressing has been weighing heavy. I didn’t even know I was depressed. I’m the one that has always kept strong for my family and never shown any vulnerability. But that’s a tough burden to bear too.
Anyway, these comments are helpful. Baby steps seems to be a good idea, and keeping to a routine and focusing on small things ways we can control things. Thanks guys!
|by Anonymous||reply 122||November 24, 2021 12:08 PM
I agree with R7. Doing something as simple as organizing your sock drawer is helpful. It helps you get out of your head by focusing on a rote task.
I never even think of my socks until I’m depressed. Then it’s my go-to place.
|by Anonymous||reply 123||November 24, 2021 12:35 PM
I think of the DL maiden aunt brigade condemning me for being a bone idle slattern.
|by Anonymous||reply 124||November 24, 2021 3:23 PM
I'm pretty hard on myself (It works for me). I tell myself to stop being so selfish, half the world is depressed with better reason then mine (non-chemical imbalance of course), and that there are people in hospitals right now who would do anything to be able to stand up and walk out the door. So many can't and may never again. Healthy is a gift.
I use such warm internal thoughts as "hey fat fuck , get out of bed and stop whining". I don't think anyone will be booking me on The View anytime soon for an advice segment.
|by Anonymous||reply 125||November 24, 2021 3:32 PM
r114 here.... anyone have any experience with that drug? TIA
|by Anonymous||reply 126||November 24, 2021 11:14 PM
r113 here. I was able to get some reading done today, but it looked mostly like this: read for 15 mins, sit and do nothing/sleep at my desk for 2 hours, rinse and repeat. But, it's better than nothing.
Another problem is that my concentration is nonexistent.
|by Anonymous||reply 127||November 24, 2021 11:19 PM
Am depressed about r118, clearly a young, articulate, and kind man, and wish there was something I could do to support you. Been in remission for 3 years, but was not at stage 4. It was stage 3, with a metastasis to one kidney, caught and treated early.
Sort of ironically, I am a scientist who does immuno-oncology research to find drugs that help one's immune system attack their cancer cells. I would hope that you have a talented medical team, good health insurance, and that you might get on an "open label" clinical trial. I too was sort of my family's caretaker, but had to cancel them for risk of getting involved in their drama, which I could not even process, let alone assist or mediate.
Do you have ANY possible type of support network or even a good friend/confidente? I'm talking about groceries and rides to medical visits and maybe social calls, to start. Major things later. Think Big. This is the time for you to totally let go and be vulnerable and allow any non-toxic person to step in, including, but not limited to psychiatry and/or psychotherapy.
Please know that you can start a cancer thread here on the Datalounge, perhaps a more specific one, like Colorectal cancer, or stage 4 cancer experiences, or both.
The one thing I strongly suggest for those with depression is to try taking LSD or Magic Mushrooms. There's a whole thread on growing and taking magic mushrooms for depression here. I've had great success.
Am assuming that everyone here has already tried various anti-depressant meds, cats, chocolate, body lotions, and Vodka. Those are first-line treatments.
|by Anonymous||reply 128||November 25, 2021 5:23 AM
r113 again ... I was able to write almost 3,000 words today, but now I've hit a wall.
If I write 1,200 words a day -- totally doable -- I can have this damned thing finished by next Friday.
|by Anonymous||reply 129||November 26, 2021 8:40 PM
I'm depressed again ... have done nothing today and very little yesterday.
|by Anonymous||reply 130||November 29, 2021 6:29 PM
I get up, well my cat gets me up and insists I made him his breakfast which I do. I just remind myself to be grateful for what I do have, not what I don't. If the sun is shining, which it is most of the time, I happy for that. I, in 60 something yrs I've been here, learned to think positively, not the other way. Although I'll always have underlying depression, I rarely let it become overwhelming
|by Anonymous||reply 131||November 29, 2021 6:52 PM
Sending love to r131. You'll be fine, IMHO.
|by Anonymous||reply 132||December 1, 2021 6:29 AM
You have to get moving. Make a list of things to do and tick them off as you go. If necessary, make them as small and easy as possible, eg, brush your teeth, wash coffee cup, take a shower. Seeing the completed tasks will make you feel more competent and able to take on bigger tasks, such as vacuuming the house, doing laundry, email xyz, taking a walk. And so on...
This will make you feel better. Very important not to neglect your hygiene - brushing your teeth, showering, shaving, wearing clean clothes, and changing your sheets. Once you start to let this go, you really can fall into a hole.
Good luck, OP.
|by Anonymous||reply 133||December 1, 2021 9:36 AM
Exercise is like a natural effective antidepressant after about 3 consecutive days. It’s true!
|by Anonymous||reply 134||December 1, 2021 9:47 AM
OP, check out the book The 5 Second Rule by Mel Robbins. I know suggesting a self help book is uncool and super frau. BUT, it honestly did help me.
|by Anonymous||reply 135||December 1, 2021 9:59 AM
OP only you can decide what method works for you depending on your learning style. For some, journaling helps, while others hate journaling. Same goes for breathing. Sometimes stopping and turning down your negative voice can help. Stop comparing yourself to others. Stay off FB. Most people only post exciting pieces of their life. Be ok with where you are in life. Come up with a 6 month goal board or whatever that looks like for you. We definitely cannot live for you and what works for one may not for you. You have to take initiative to want to get better. Go to school, find a hobby, connect on Quora they have lots of lonely boards on there. Try to get up, take shower, and be grateful for living. There are so many living in filth, homeless, etc. Find some positive aspects about your life and focus on them. Breathing does help. Time, give it time. However, if you sincerely find that you cannot get out of bed then it’s time to see a Psychiatrist. Get a full blood work up, too. Sometimes poor health, thyroid could be the culprit. Whatever you do, do what feels right to you. Only you know if you have the power to get up, be present, and remove negative, poor me talk. You got this!
|by Anonymous||reply 136||December 1, 2021 10:15 AM
r132 thank you....love right back to you! I made the decision to make the most of this life. I realized I did have a choice but I'd have to work hard to change my perception of how I saw things.
Yes, it's the old the glass is half full, not empty kind of philosophy . Of course I do get regular therapy and that helps, too
|by Anonymous||reply 137||December 1, 2021 1:09 PM