Are you part of The Great Resignation?

That site is terrible.

How are people surviving without work though?

I would say that I don't really want to spend my life working or climbing a latter. I want to never work again by the time I'm 50, so 1- years. Working sucks and I have found I can totally fill my time without it. I have a nice, comfortable life and after 2020, I realized I don't need to be striving for more, more, more. I don't follow social media and truly believe comparison is the thief of joy. My friends are neurotic, never satisfied, and have a lot of issues. I can't do it anymore.

I work less, eat well, go to the gym. A work week does not need to be 40 hours. I feel like we pad time. I can knock most of my work out in 4 hours/day and my best working hours are 10-3pm. I just want to stay healthy, fit, and well rested. If you have that, you have a lot.

Life is so short that it doesn't seem worth working yourself to death. My mantra is to make as much as possible doing the bare minimum and pray for an inheritance.. Especially with all the Covid ups and downs you never know when the basic everyday things can be taken away (travel, dining, gym) so I want to spend my time enjoying things in the present as the future seems more up in the air than ever.

Yes - I'm an essential worker and did bulk overtime etc through COVID. Took two weeks off early this year and came back to find that out of my team of ten two were out with workplace injuries and another three were off for weeks with illness, including the team leader. Every shift I was surrounded by casuals, temps and inexperienced part-timers who needed a lot of direction. Meanwhile I'm trying to get all the paperwork in and fill all the vacant shifts etc. I ended up working 12 days straight. When I finally got a couple of days off I realised I needed to get out while I was still healthy. I sat down and went through all my finances, ran a bunch of retirement simulators and worked out that I could comfortably retire and the optimum time was the start of the new financial year.

So the stress from COVID is what triggered me to retire at 58. I'm out of the workforce in two weeks.

Oh, honey - I quit last year.

[Quote]How are people surviving without work though?

Onlyfans.

[quote]How are people surviving without work though?

At 60, I can afford to quit work, but have continued for now because I get a huge amount of vacation time and flexibility in extending that if I should want; I'm left alone to work independently; it's interesting work; and for 20 or so years I've worked entirely from home, almost entirely free from office politics. The past two years, however, office politics and interference are making their presence known, increasingly, but I don't bother with it. If it turns unpleasant I could say "fuck it" and walk away easily (and on my own schedule, to be left alone in my last days or year. of work) I'm in a fortunate position due to the alignment of age, finances, access to universal health care, living in an affordable part of the world.

I think Covid gave people my age and and with some financial flexibility a reason to look at their prospects for retirement, to ask fundamental questions about why they are working and for how much longer and what else might they do in life beyond that work. All those people who are looking the difference in monthly income with social security, etc. if taken at one age, or a year later, or a year later. Is t worth it to hold off to retire at full retirement age, or to not retire at 62 but at 64 to get an extra $275 a month in social security benefits? Covid pushed people nearing the end of their careers to say "fuck it," or to seriously consider it. "I hate that office and loved working from home — I'm not going back to sit a desk length away from 5 other people coughing and hacking and not vaccinating, the stink of people I don't like recirculating in the air day after day. I quit."

This past Covid year I just carried on because, why not with all the lockdowns and restrictions and inability to travel? It wasn't as though it was interfering too much with my Netflix watching and not doing things or going places. Now it would barely take a misspoken word for me to walk away.

R3 is right in so many ways, right to question why people work five days and 40 hours a week; why chasing after a incremental job title change to have something to post in fucking LinkedIn is worth fuck all; why chasing after a newer model car or a new sofa from Wayfair or that giant Mah Jong modular sofa from Roche Bobois -- is that all we work for? I picked an unlucrative career and realized early on that no matter how hard I hustled and networked and how connected I became, I would only ever make so much money, an amount not that much more than I was making at the time. From that epiphany at once early and too late in my career I relaxed and tried to find the jobs that let me focus on the things that brought me the most pleasure and had me hustling least to stay employed. But of all the people I've met in all circles of life in difference places, for 99.5% of people work is just that. No matter how important they feel it is to get those billing reports out every alternate Tuesday afternoon at 3pm, it's not.

Some moments in life give rise to these little epiphanies. The combination of Covid and raw corporate greed, right there big as life like a giant scab on a face, that will turn on its treasured family of employees in a split-second, and a broader climate of every man for himself...more power to The Great Resignation.

"climbing a latter"

Oh, dear.

You'll be working a lot longer than you think you will.

[quote] I'm an independent contractor

You're a paid internet troll. You are not high enough in the food chain to be an independent contractor.

It needs to be said that op is a conservative troll. She did not accidentally choose a libertarian-conservative website to link to her post here. This is not the kind of stuff that gay people are interested in. The author of the article OP links to, Hannah Cox, is a libertarian-conservative mouthpiece.

Hannah uses the phrase 'central planning' twice in her article, in an attempt to ease us gently into the Red Scare.

Opie, why didn't you just go ahead and link to Stormfront, or Fox News?

All so true r3. We've locked ourselves into a stupid culture of 40-hours work weeks chained to some cubicle farm as some kind of ideal. Covid gave us all a chance to rethink that.

And I agree r10 that the author is a glibertarian crank deeply offended at the idea that anyone would escape corporate serfdom. Something about actual freedom just pisses off that type. Freedom should be tied to corporate control for some reason in their minds. But I don't know what you mean by "this is not the kind of stuff gay people are interested in." Everyone should be thinking about why we've decided some 19th century workplace ideal has to last forever.

OP, I overheard my neighbour telling a couple of friends about how much he's dreading the return to the office. I feel bad for him because he works so hard.

I climbed the ladder of success wrong by wrong.

67 here. Still working from home, and plan to do so until I can't work anymore or die.

Only have about $100k in my 401k, so retirement is not a real option.

Work environments are toxic because there's such a sense of exploitation at the work place. The niggardliness of the approach to minimum wage, the atrocious remuneration of the upperups, the appalling benefits... It's all very unjust and dehumanizing.

American workers are tired of being worked to death for shit pay and benefits while execs and CEOs—most already born on third base—make literally thousands of times more. Boomers can criticize all they want but they were never so egregiously exploited as the current generations are.

I feel exploited moreso by my coworkers who are totally unqualified for my line of work, lack any sort of problem-solving or ability to use logic. I have to clean up their messes. This made me realize if I had spent my time working on my own projects at the same level instead of letting lazy morons coast by on my work, my life would be much better.

Agree with R3 on all points, except I know that I won't get an inheritance so I occasionally play the lottery. I desperately want to quit my job before being forced back to in-person work in a month, but I'd like to have a new job lined up first. Been looking for a 100% remote position since spring and having no luck.

It’s sad to see how badly the world has been disrupted by this pandemic. Everyone seems so disillusioned. I’m not going to retreat from the productive workforce, even if the conditions don’t feel as optimal as I’d like. The reality is that people are living longer (although the average lifespan decreased slightly recently). Absence of a huge nest egg and absolute financial certainty, I would not throw away any opportunity right now. So many of my friends aged out of their careers too early. Some act all carefree, but live with a lot of uncertainty. I was a broke young person, and it sucked. I can’t envision being a broke old person is any better. I’d stay in the workforce, even if it’s hard and intermittently stressful or boring. I don’t want to greet people at Walmart or drive people around (or deliver food or packages) “for fun and something to do” in 10 years. These processes could actually be automated by then, anyhow. Everything is disreputable, nothing is certain. I’m going to muscle through.

I have great insurance with my job, despite that I'm thinking of moving to something fitting my needs more, the coordinators and director bosses are flailing and failing and getting more business considering the new perimeters and it's gotten very old

R14 is being honest and I really appreciate that right now. That profile (age/assets/income) is probably better than many. I know a dozen people between 55 and 65 who have been under-employed for a decade or more, and lost momentum in their peak earning years. That would freak me out.

Even worse, I have friends who earned a lot in big jobs in the 90’s, but overspent and spiraled into debt. Some have two discharged bankruptcies, no credit, no cash, unstable housing, and looming health issues (vision, metabolic disorders, orthopedic issues). And their parents (usually only one remaining) are living past 90 and consuming resources that seemed “inheritable” 15 years ago, but now not so much.

Fuck all that. Don’t hand back a single buck or walk away from even a crappy job right now. And don’t let your broke friends tell you how great their freedom feels. Anyone, anywhere could end up in Nomadland, or worse. I don’t want to shit in a bucket.

Maybe we should do something about that as a society r19. Maybe we shouldn't accept the winner-take-all society we've created. Maybe some kind of security for everyone who has dragged their ass through decades of dreary work should be a goal. Maybe having a few trillionaires and millions of desperate wage slaves shouldn't be the goal.

R21 - too true. All good points.

While I have enjoyed not commuting two hours a day and not getting dressed for work, my company has expected a lot more out of us during the pandemic. My coworkers and I worked so much harder than we did before with fewer resources. We have not been rewarded for the hard work either.

I can't afford to quit and I'm too young to retire, so I am among those looking for a new challenge.

all good points

I agree, R1. I just wanted a good article and didn't realize it was a libertarian, rightwing site.

See I don't think it's sad r19. The disruption that is. The deaths are terrible and sad.

But the disruption can be useful. Like most societies in history, we accept stupid rules and norms long past the point that they have become useless. It is time to rethink what we mean by work, why we do it, and how much is actually necessary and not just done out of habit.

R9 and R10, only real idiots are so "sure" of everything and so willing to call everyone else names. Mistakes happen, like when your mothers had you!

R14, tell us more about Samba. Tuna addiction is very, very bad. Is she scratching your face if she can't get her fix?

My vet told me canned tuna gives cats fatty liver. I felt bad after that because I had thought it was a treat.

R22 “winner-take-all” is true when I think of the concentration of wealth over this past 20 years. I remember being astonished by a sound bite citing “for each new millionaire created in our economy,___ people fall below the poverty level”. Economic stratification is real and growing. In a way, I’m glad I’m not so young anymore. I think we will see a huge number of people subsisting meagerly, in service to a small cohort of wealthy, connected “innovators”.

It feels like human societies are self sorting like insects, into drones and queens who command and control all resources. Sorry to be glum chum, a cold pragmatist. I know that I could have been left behind. I’m not sure why I wasn’t. I’m sad for those who were eclipsed, and I know more of them as I get older. It’s rough!

R10 fortunately, unlike you, the rest of us can read anything we want. Conservative, progressive, right-wing, left-wing, whatever. Unlike you, we allow ourselves the freedom to access texts from wherever we want, and then assess the content independently. We don’t rely on scare tactics to deny ourselves freedom of thought.

The article r10 criticizes says this:

[quote] Large numbers of Americans transitioned to working from home last year, and now that they’ve enjoyed the quality of life increase that remote work brings they are unwilling to return to the monotony of a desk-job.

[quote]Lots of managers have announced plans to bring employees back to the office this fall, and it seems many people are simply unwilling to do so. And given the plethora of open jobs at the moment, the best workers have their pick of employment.

That's the best news about the worker-management power imbalance we’ve heard in a long time. If true, that is.

Either r10 is a troll for some think-tank funded by our .01% overlords, or else doesn’t have an independent brain cell left in its head.

[quote] Everyone seems so disillusioned

R19 What you may see as "disillusioned" is to some (many?) of us, a sudden onset of clarity. The pandemic has caused a lot of people to question their priorities and put things like life, mental health, and well-being ahead of the big capitalist delusion.

I would if I could, but I can't, so I won't.

People who work from home - what do you do?

click buttons, check facebook

The vanished workers must be living on [italic]something[/italic]? Unemployment and stimulus checks being (largely) a thing of the past, were they "taken up in the rapture"?

I left my job six years ago when I was 58. I couldn’t stand working with toxic people in a toxic atmosphere anymore. I’ve been living off my savings until I take SS next year. I’m on a tight budget but it’s worth it.

If I’m forced back to the office I will start looking elsewhere. Or just apply to another position so that they lose my experience in my department.

[quote]What you may see as "disillusioned" is to some (many?) of us, a sudden onset of clarity. The pandemic has caused a lot of people to question their priorities and put things like life, mental health, and well-being ahead of the big capitalist delusion.

Exactly. People work like dogs. Americans forsake what little vacation time is allotted them (as if it were gold bricks.) They pay six figures to put a kid through college who will probably be living under their roof for another six or so years. They chase after new cars. Only a little more often than some of our DL brethren change their bedsheets they replace their kitchen cabinets and Formica countertops with quartz then granite then marble then synthetic quartz (with budgets that would add a wing onto a house in many parts of Western Europe.) They buy giant bags of randomness from Bed, Bath, and Beyond and leave them sitting in a corner in a guest room for months. They fill giant shopping carts and giant car trunks with giant boxes of shit food. They order bad pizza. They put their parents into care facilities and work to pay for it. They forsake friendships ("We HAVE to get together! It's been too long! Oh, look at the time...Pilates! Soon!") because they are too busy buying new blends of exotic seasonings for salads featuring pomegranate arils and seven kinds of laundry whiteners and brighteners and fabric softeners that smell like cheap cat litter. They put of their retirement because they used the equity in their house as a bank for a decade and a half, but they didn't go anywhere or do anything interesting, they just bought more useless shit.

I would have thought nothing would dissuade these people from thinking it was all so terribly important, but a year at home sitting on your ass makes the mind wander, maybe.

The genie is out of the bottle.

Late millennials and generation Z, for all their flaws, realise working (read: being exploited) isn’t the pinnacle of life that it’s made out to be.

When boomers left the office, they were truly done for the day. My grandfather, who was a big wig at 3M Netherlands, never ever received a phone call after work.

With work email available anywhere any time, Slac, Microsoft Teams, Zoom, and all that CRAP — you are never really off the clock. Unless you clearly state your boundaries (I know, DL-speak) from day one.

People are too easily reachable these days. This is why I have two phones, and one always goes straight in the drawer.

Agree with many posters: Most jobs do not require 40 hours, let alone more - and it’s great to see the 4-day workweek slowly gaining traction.

As for my generation (1987) and younger — I think we’re already experiencing a huge turn-around in the collective mindset. Work doesn’t define you, and it shouldn’t, and more and more people are starting to see that.

Last but not least: Almost nobody wants to spend 5 days per week with their colleagues in an enclosed space. The battle for getting folks to return to the office is a lost one.

And I guarantee you: Two years from now, flexibility re: work-from-anywhere will be key to attracting and retaining the right people. It will matter more than salary and vacation days.

Stubborn employers just haven’t accepted that yet.

R38 “It’s worth it” is what I like to hear and what I hope to say when I step away from my work life. If you’re practical, the quality of life on a tight budget can be high. I did learn to cook and garden during the pandemic, and I’m going to tighten my focus on pragmatic, enjoyable things. I’m not going to surround myself with things I don’t really want or need. I use the expression “tuck into a ball” financially to live simply. I envy your freedom.

R38 The ability to live off your savings is probably becoming a rare exception. You must have managed resources well to have had that option. I plan that as an escape hatch (56 here), and will probably time it so that I wouldn’t draw retirement income until the right time for that (I know you receive more if you begin drawing SS later).

When switching jobs, I kept some financial tools that were part of my compensation going, specifically a few endowed insurance plans that will carry a cash value when I reach 62. I can use funds like these to buy time before drawing retirement benefits, so I pay quarterly to build this policies. It’s not too bad.

I think about housing options and things I want for myself when I’m retired pretty often, but hopefully not obsessively.

But career mobility has been the rule for the last forty years. People who stay in the same job or even the same profession over their working life are the exceptions. Employers who take advantage of a tight job market by treating their workers badly end up paying for it when jobs become more plentiful and workers can move on.

R32 is also a troll. I am the bump bitch explainer and a wild liberal. My fucking background is in economics and Bernie Sanders paid for me to go to grad school, bitches. I have been calling out trolls on this site continually for months and I will continue to do so. The trolls use conservative sites, talking points, often hidden in other content. They aren't only trying to force their propaganda on Dataloungers; they are hoping to increase their toxic sites' visibility on the internet by gaining clicks here and elsewhere.

This website has far more right-wing articles and talking points than gay men would tolerate in real life. I would never use a niche conservative libertarian website to make my point when there are so many nonconservative libertarian websites to make the same point.

R32 fails to mention that the article that is linked makes a bland point that workers don't want to return to the office, but then blames them like this (all quoted from the linked article):

The opening line of the article is "Central planners were warned ..." Central planners? Really, OP?

Then the author of the linked article - Hannah Cox, on her libtard site Foundation for Economic Education aka FEE - calls COVID unemployment relief "a big bad government policy," and "a perverse incentive."

She then goes on to use the terms "central plan" and "central planners" when talking about unemployment payments during COVID.

Of course the source matters. When I search on "the great resignation," I get results from NPR, BBC, Forbes, etc. You have to go digging - or have an agenda - to choose a libertarian slant and website on this issue. And they aren't blaming the victim for not wanting shitty working conditions.

I had Tuna addiction in my mid thirties. That's Tuna with a "U".

R43. Actually I don’t have a huge amount in savings. When I turned 60 I started taking money from my IRA since I reached an age where I wouldn’t have to pay a penalty. But my apt is mortgage free after 30 years of payments and my maintenance is low. I don’t own a car. I give myself a weekly $100 budget for groceries plus pet and household supplies. You’d be surprised how far you can stretch $100 without making huge sacrifices. I live on $1500 per month. Sometimes I allow myself $2000 if I have a friends bday or some other need. It can be done. My four credit cards have zero balance. And I’m happier than I was when I was making $185,000 per year.

Making $185k in the past was real money. You could easily make a future on that. That is as god as it gets.

These employers probably deserve it.

You may be right r41. On top of it, we need to decide if the 40-hour workweek (as a minimum really, many expect more) is necessary or desirable any more. Conversations we as a nation are terrified of having, practically aren't allowed to have, may actually be on the table in the next few years.

Didn’t resign, but negotiated a portfolio shift and more WFH time by threatening to. (And, yes, I had another job to jump to if I’d failed.)

this thread allies only to office workers. as a freelance artist or musician our lives could not differentiations any more than what I am reading.

I told my employment to lick my asshole! Now I can stay home and relax!

r52, this thread APPLIES, that is

So can I.

Lol r55

I didn’t mind the office, I basically went in, worked and left. No drama. But now I can see all the benefits of wfh. Forcing people like me back creates resentment and certainly does nothing to “maintain our culture”. In fact, it does the opposite. In time, these Companies will learn the hard way.

These Boomers and Gen X cunts that run these companies are in for a rude awakening. Younger Millennials and Gen Z aren’t going to put up with this shit. They’re not going to do this in the office 9-5 shit for the rest of their lives. Companies are going to have no choice but to switch things to WFH sooner or later if they want to keep employees. Otherwise they will keep having a revolving door.

COVID was the push that pried timecards out Boomers cold dying hands . The last thing I want to see is a pelican not a spread sheet.

Bravo r45!

My company had a policy of churn and burn. Hire young college grads, give them more work than they could possibly handle, and filter out the discontents. Now they struggle to keep employees. It’s the employees that are churning and burning now. It’s kinda of great.

R45 sounds like a Dominican searching for heresy during the Catholic Inquisition of the Middle Ages.

There must be a strict list of approved websites and sources, and gay men and lesbians are not allowed to read ANY OTHER SOURCES. “NPR, BBC, and Forbes.” Daring to read or explore any other viewpoints, authors, other sources, from any other institutions outside of the approved list, that's APOSTACY.

“Repent! repent! repent!” says r45.

Just wondering, who the FUCK thinks they get to dictate to others what they can and can’t read?

I did something similar, R38.

After almost 10 years of waiting for that tenure-track position they kept promising me (itinerant scholar here!), I went back to work for my state's government to get my 10 years in and qualify for a pension. Working with arrogant lazy assholes for four years damned near sent me to a psych ward, but I managed to hang in until I could leave at 58 with an $800/month pension. I sold my not-yet-paid-for house (thereby losing my only debt) and bought a trailer in Deplorable Heaven, FL on a nice piece of land and made it my mission to live on my pension until I hit 62 and could get SS. It was tough and money was very tight, but last year I finally hit that magic number and started to collect. Now that I'm getting $2000/month gross (and still have 20K in the bank), I feel positively rich (I mean, it's all relative). And the trailer and land that I'd purchased outright five years ago are worth twice what I paid then.

I know compared to most of you I'm a poverty-stricken elder and doubtless to be pitied, but I've never had much money and I don't really need much. For extra money, I work part-time from home scoring college applications for a large state university and thus keep my hand in the academy without having to deal with students, department chairs, etc. I know I could probably go back to work full-time at one thing or another but every time I look at job descriptions I get this sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. Honestly, I don't know how I worked for as long as I did. Retirement can sometimes be boring, but it's never stressful.

So if you can quit your job and find something better, do it! Just make sure you're prepared to make financial and lifestyle sacrifices if necessary. Still, it's only money. My peace of mind, especially at this age, is priceless.

I dunno. Tenured prof here. And I don't even have to publish... much. Colleague and deans have rapidly divided into toxic assholes who want to waste your time because they don't know how to do their work, OR completely checked out of any but bare minimum of communication. I try to operate in the latter mode. I just care about the exchanges with students. They have had a rough ride for 2 years. 40-65 year olds should know better to cut the crap, do their jobs efficiently, and collect their pay checks.

Millennials spent 10 years going to college in the 'aughts'. They're very educated, but lack the skills to make it in an office environment.

I believe they thought the real world would be like college, and wonder why all these boring, fat people are trying to talk to them all the time.

No, I’m part of the “fairly close to retirement.”

R63 Thanks for the great idea! God knows I've worked in academia long enough, I ought to be able to qualify as an application reader. I know it depends on the university, but do you get any benefits with that gig?

No, Sylvia, because it's PT. Frankly, I'd make more $ working at Walmart so I doubt you could live on it -- at least, with what my employer pays. I always joke that if the prospective students knew how little the people who made the admissions decisions were getting paid, they'd never apply there. But I've been working from home since 2017, when working from home wasn't that common, and as long as I score the requisite number of applications per week, I get to choose the time of day I work as well.

If you're looking for some kind of academic reading gig, though, there's any number of them out there. My best experiences have been with ETS (The College Board), but at this point, those jobs are as scarce as hen's teeth. I've also scored essays for No Child Left Behind exams and SATs (Pearson). The pay for the latter two is lousy, but it is work from home with very little human contact -- and that contact is only through e-mails and chat. No benefits for any of it, though -- it's all part time. But these jobs saved my ass while I taught as an adjunct at two or three different colleges waiting for that tenure track position that never came (sigh).

I know you've been looking, so good luck with your search!

The above is for R67.

I only skimmed the article but it doesn’t seem like these people are leaving the workforce entirely, just looking for better jobs.

I’ve said before the smart companies will get the best workers by allowing them flexibility as to working from home.

These descriptions of “bridge” financial models to live modestly until you become eligible for retirement benefits are so interesting. One common thread is some form of real estate asset and little to no consumer debt.

Right now I'm required to go to my cubicle two days a week. I don't see the reason for it, as I usually get much more done at home those three days. I don't have to get up so early (a plus); I don't have to commute (a major plus). Why can't I work from home Monday-Friday?!

R72 because managers like to control people. There is no other logical explanation for why you or anyone in your position needs to go in 2 days a week. My 2 days in the office bullshit starts in September. I cannot wait to waste my time and money. Is everyone at the office miserable? I know I’ll be a monster.

Hopefully another covid surge so we can stay home .

R62

It's an unpopular thing to post, but among very liberal voters there's an old-time Banned Books (sources) resurrection. Anyone who admits to deviating is "suspect" at the very least.

Does it ever occur to these Rah Rah Working from Home is fantastic people that your boss may decide that if everyone's working from home, he doesn't need to pay big city salaries? Don't be surprised when you get fired and your job is outsourced to someone from East Bumbuck, Nebraska where $40,000 is considered a great salary.

Thanks R68. My partner is the primary earner and I've always made a pittance in my academic jobs, so it wouldn't be as much of a financial hit as you'd probably think. Right now I still like my job's benefits (that's how they trap you), but hopefully admissions reading could be a viable stop-gap if I end up rage quitting one of these days.

R76 That’s true. Also there are (no kidding) some social dimensions to being in a work environment, including mentoring relationships. I learn a lot from colleagues and peers, and I had mentors at work who helped me a lot. It’s strange and sad how many people see work relationships as toxic by design. I also see a lot of indignant workers storm off to “better” lives in start-ups and online ventures, only to spiral through three or four jobs in a few years, then trying to “upskill” through online coding courses and lean, agile project management courses. All that twitters isn’t gold. It is tough to say this without sound like the “ok, Boomer” everyone hates, but I think a lot of the emerging workforce are being funneled into shitty lives. Everything is transitory.

[quote]your boss may decide that if everyone's working from home, he doesn't need to pay big city salaries?

R76: That argument is often made in Data Lounge, that being uppity about working from home will only result in jobs being outsourced - to North Dakota or India or the Philippines.

Customer service and call center operations, simple data processing operations...yes, though that momentum has developed quite independently of WFH in very select jobs.

The bigger risk is that your employer will want to adjust your WFH salary if you move to a lower cost-of-living location. It's a bit if an ideological battle between some major employers and will be interesting to see how it develops.

OP, why are you posting poorly written shit from a libertarian doom porn site? It’s hilarious the way that corporate America is freaking out over the possibility that the job market might shift (slightly) towards workers for a little while. It’ll be fine.

R79 “in very select jobs”. That’s not quite true. I know several individuals with degrees in data sciences and with all sorts of expensive microcredentials in informatics, artificial intelligence and systems design. Many work remotely and hate it. Their bosses usually have three start-up enterprises operating simultaneously, and exit strategies for each one. When a start-up is sold, these remote supportive roles usually go away. And not every “partner” has an equity share. I see a lot of people near 30 aging out of the start-up cultures and being really left behind by slicker, quicker, better connected peers. I would hate that.

Reading about WeWork and its leadership is like an allegory of this economy. You can find yourself very much alone, getting screamed over some conference software tool by someone younger, meaner, and smarter. It’s a rough time for workers in many settings, but it must feel so awful and alienating to fall out with a boss who doesn’t even actually know you beyond your productivity. Everyone is so disposable right now.

[R17], when I worked in the medical field (I will no disclose any more information as I feel it would be prejudicial, not as much to the employees, but to anybody who has or has had a procedure performed there). I would point out repeated glaring errors on the part of other employees to the manager of their department. The essence of the replies I would receive was, "It's not fair to point out the mistakes of others."

[quote] While I have enjoyed not commuting two hours a day and not getting dressed for work, my company has expected a lot more out of us during the pandemic. My coworkers and I worked so much harder than we did before with fewer resources. We have not been rewarded for the hard work either.

This is a universal experience (complaint) with work from home. I often had 12 hour days and reviewed and responded to e-mails hours after close of business. When I have to go back to the office -- and commute 45 mins each way -- I will arrive at 9am, take a 90 minute lunch and shutdown at 4:57pm everyday; and never work at home.

Fuck 'em!

I think there's a good eighteen months of upheaval at the workplace on both sides.

[quote] click buttons, check facebook

That's all my admin does IN THE OFFICE. If I ask her for anything she stares daggers at me.

[quote] These descriptions of “bridge” financial models to live modestly until you become eligible for retirement benefits are so interesting. One common thread is some form of real estate asset and little to no consumer debt.

Serious question. If you retire at 58 what do you do about healthcare until you are Medicare eligible at 65?

[quote] Hopefully another covid surge so we can stay home .

Please God, no! That would be the only thing WORSE than returning to the office.

R86 Working until you 65 yo guarantees you will be constantly utilizing Medicare.

I think it's an interesting time. I am seeing a trend of educated people just flat out admitting that they don't want to work, period. It was almost taboo to say that, similar (until more recently), that being a parent is terrible and not all that fulfilling for many. I'm in my prime working years and I really have no interest in working. We all have to make money, but your job being who you are is slowly fading. That is a quintessential boomer mentality and we all saw how much happiness that brought our parents, even if they did make good money. The pandemic has shown nothing is certain and you can lose everything instantly. I think of all the small businesses that are gone, all this dreams dashed, debt accrued in the cities that were hard hit.

[quote] I am seeing a trend of educated people just flat out admitting that they don't want to work, period.

That is so me. I can't even fake it anymore. I cannot wait to retire. I need a few more years but I will be out well before sixty-five even if it means a more modest lifestyle (thank God for ridiculous real estate prices in large cities.) I can't even fake it anymore. The bullshit, the politics, the futility... I'd rather grow vegetables than suffer in an office one minute longer than I have to.

R80, did you read the thread? Lots of great discussion. It's good to know once in awhile how the "other side" is framing events. I learned a lot on FEE about how these guys see workers. The posters pretend to be self-sufficient, independent 'makers' on that site, but in reality, as on every other site (including DL) they are just wannabe legends-in-their-own-minds lying about their circumstances. Probably live in their parents' basements. So stop attacking me and realize that discussion is sometimes served by posting something provocative.

R47 I, too, share your views. I am 55 and only work part time ( my own practice) . I moved outside of NYC to (what was once affordable) mid Hudson Valley. My office rent is 1/3 of what I paid in Manhattan. I don't get to travel to Europe like I used to, or buy as much stuff - but I am ok with that as I don't have to be an exploited worker forced to work under very violent circumstance.

I don't have much in retirement. Luckily, I can keep working part time forever. I can work at home doing telemedicine - I don't have to deal with the office nasties and patients can't attack me when I decline to prescribe Xanax and opiates.

I keep hearing you can't believe how little you need to live happily.

R86. If you want to retire early, you can do what self employed people like myself do - I buy my insurance on the ACA marketplace. I live in NY, which is very good at regulating how much insurers can increase premiums. My income dropped last year due to COvid. I called up the NYS marketplace and they moved me onto an essential plan where I have no doctor copays and only pay $1-3 for prescriptions.

I your income is $2000 or less a month you will be eligible for the low cost essential plans.

There is someone on here who said he was living on $800-1000/month. In NY he would be eligible for Medicaid , everything free. Once he becomes eligible for Medicare, he can qualify for Medi-Medi, and Medicaid covers all out of pocket costs. 1/3 of residents of NYS are on Medicaid and it is very well run.

[quote]Millennials spent 10 years going to college in the 'aughts'. They're very educated, but lack the skills to make it in an office environment.

Who needs an office? Both my sons are millenials. They both work from home. One has his own business and has about a dozen people he contracts work out to on top of the money he makes doing the same thing. He makes at least $250K/year, and likely much more. Plus, he owns two homes. My other son makes ~$180K (he took a while to find his footing). All their friends (except one) have very well-paying jobs, many in offices. They all seem to have a great work/life balance.

You're painting with a pretty broad brush.

Me? I share a condo with my partner that I will have paid off in six more years. I'm 65 but not retired. I work from home for my partner's business. I have a very tidy nest egg (for me) that I haven't touched and will take my full SS at 66 and 4 months. But I never made the type of money my sons are making. That's the way it should be.

I have been reporting to the office twice a week, but the Director did state first week of August the entire staff will be back full time. I have a private office, but despite reassurances about the cleaning personnel, I intend to bring my own supplies of wipes, sanitizers, etc.

My contract ended on June 30th. I am taking the summer off and dreading a return to work. I’ve always had some type of job since I was 12 and I am tired of working. As well, I am sick of the nickel and diming of companies and corporations. Yes, CEOs and VPs deserve more but not 350 times more than worker bees. Even if one of these guys (they are mostly men in those positions) gets sacked they get a golden parachute and get hired at another company.

^ I haven’t filed for unemployment yet because in my state you must expend your vacation pay and severance (if you receive it) before you can collect. You must also look for work and I am not currently ready to do that.

R67 (Sylvia), have you ever considered getting married to get your partner's benefits? That's what my (straight) sister did when she retired at 55. Just a thought.

R86? Because I did a stint in the Army lo these many years ago, I can go to the VA for my health care. Thank you, Bill Clinton -- without the changes his administration made making all honorably discharged veterans eligible for VA health care, I couldn't have quit working FT to try for my dream job in academia, so I'll always be grateful for that.

I started working around age 13 when my parents made me become a housekeeper for my Step Father's uncle and aunt. I had to go to their house each week and clean it from top to bottom. I think I got maybe $50 per week. Then at 16 I got a summer job at Del Taco and worked for the time in between school. After I graduated HS I was working two jobs while taking classes at a community college and then I finally transferred to UCLA. I worked all through college and took out loans because my parents didn't help me and I'd been renting a room from someone when I turned 18.

I'm now 52 and I'm burnt the fuck out. The best time in my life was when I was laid off from my job in 2004 and collected unemployment and when that ended, I started my own independent work from home for a while. Had no health insurance but I didn't care...until I got injured playing sports and realized I was fucked without health insurance. So back to working a full time job at an office because of course, health insurance was tied to full time jobs. And I've been full time ever since and ALL I did during the pandemic was work (Luckily they let us work from home and still are).

But I have to say, I'm done. I have very little saved for retirement and it's not enough. But at some point I'm going to either die from exhaustion or a heart attack because the stress of work at this point is taking a toll on my health. I have no property but no debt either. I live in LA so properties here are out of my range even though I make good money. I'm single so buying a house here is not an option unless I win the lottery.

I know my dad was the only one who worked and he had a house with two cars and four kids in his 20's. But that was when houses cost $7000. Still, it's pretty shameful that I've never been able to afford anything despite working my ass off all these year. Paying for college and loans pretty much killed any dream I'd had and fear of not having health insurance kept me from taking more chances. I'd consider myself lucky if I die before I retire because then I don't have to worry about $ anymore.

^ Sorry 52 in LA is not a good place to be these days.

I like the people I work with and generally don't mind - even sometimes enjoy - being in the office. I'm approaching retirement age, but I'd be happy to go on working there for a few years to further build up my pension and maintain the social contact, except that I refuse to go back to commuting every day.

Traffic around here is now worse than before the pandemic. I waste close to 2 hours a day traveling to and from the office. Fortunately, we're only required to go in 2 days a week and can work at home the rest of the time. If they try to force us back into the office 5 days/week, I'll quit.

I've talked to a number of others in my department, and most like working mostly from home with 1 or 2 days at most in the office. I think some others - close-to-retirees, like me, and women with husbands who can support the household fully if necessary - would also quit if we had to back to commuting full time. It's just not worth the time and aggravation.

R100? I was looking into getting a non-professional job that would provide paid training, and I found two things that interested me: 1) driving a tractor-trailer, and 2) becoming a phlebotomist. Trucking companies are desperate for drivers and will pay you while they train you. It's not the highest paying or easiest job in the world, but you don't have to use your brain or work with others and it's a completely different environment than an office. Secondly, my local blood bank is so in need of phlebotomists that they will train you to come to work for them drawing blood. Again, not the best paid job in the world, but something I could feel good about doing, and I thought I might meet blood donors who were also about doing good in the world. These are just two ideas I had for myself. I'm sure there are some out there for you as well.

Working yourself to death is also an option, but there are others. Don't give up.

Thanks, r103

This thread is going in your file.

[quote]this thread [applies] only to office workers. as a freelance artist or musician our lives could not [be] any more [different] than what I am reading.

Sure. White Collar workers are about 53% of the U.S. workforce, Blue Collar workers about 36% and Other about 9%.

A factory worker is going to have a much different experience with "Work From Home" policies, office politics, and hiring/retention practices than an office worker, or someone whose job is in the nature of freelance work, based on at home but performed in a public space.

if everyone quits their jobs...

1. how will they support themselves?

2. who will fill positions? computers - AI?

3. will it cause the US economy to plunge?

[quote] A Millennial cousin of mine spent 10 years going to college in the 'aughts'. They're very educated, but lack the skills to make it in an office environment. I believe they thought the real world would be like college, and wonder why all these boring, fat people are trying to talk to them all the time. Based on that single instance, I am going to make a sweeping generalization about an entire generation.

Fixed

I’m part of the “too-much-debt-to-even-think-about-taking-a-vacation” crowd.

Here's a bit that you are all missing: the more highly paid the job, the more hours you are expected to work.

That is a HUGE shift from earlier times when The Poors worked backbreaking schedules and the The Rich played golf and went out for three martini lunches.

Now highly paid white collar works routinely work 60-70 hour weeks and are expected to be available 24/7 via their phones and to be available during vacations as well. Can't tell you how many calls I've had with someone working from their hotel room while the kids are down at the beach. It's sort of become a badge of honor.

Meanwhile, The Poors are struggling to have any sort of regular hours and to find enough work. There is little regularity to their schedules, they often struggle to cobble 40 hours a week together and are often on call, so need to scramble to get to work and find childcare.

A losing situation for both sides which is why so many people are bailing and why we need to rethink work.

R109 That can happen to anyone and it did to me when I was younger. I think there are more people in your situation than imagined. It’s a sign of the times. I hope you can pace yourself and chip away at it.

My company is so shit scared to tell us details and are hiding behind a “hybrid” model and deciding what that will look like… yeah right, just tell us assholes.

R110 what you just described, with the poor sod working from his hotel room, is exactly what the younger generation is rebelling against.

And that is a very, very good thing.

My "vacations" for the past 15 years have been "stay cations." I couldn't afford to travel, ever. Now that I'm debt free and can afford it, I realize my two weeks paid vacation per year doesn't really allow me to go anywhere since my company doesn't like when people take that two weeks at a time.

This shit needs to change. We are the only country that offers such little vacation time. We work ourselves to death and the rest of us wonder why we are so burnt out. Last year the ONLY thing we had to do was work and now that people are vaccinated and some things have opened up, we are all just over it.

R114, but the CEOs will point out the Chinese are working the 996 schedule and on the way to becoming the biggest economic power. Workers can't win. The CEOs will always find some bogeyman to scare us to staying at the grindstone. I remember when I told my manager that for ONE trip I was not going to bring my laptop because I was going to be hiking and camping. I was actually afraid of his reaction. How stupid is that? I can't imagine a Danish or German worker actually going through that. They would probably laugh at my timidity.

Manager was pissed at me for not working on a weekend request. I worked on it as soon as I saw it Monday morning but he lectured me that at my advanced level I needed to check email on the weekends. Funny, when he doesn't like me challenging him on anything, I'm just a peon. He actually threatened to change my title to reflect my non managerial status. But hey, I'm high enough on the food chain to be on call on the weekends. My POV is that even if there's no work actually done, checking email 52 weekends in the year effectively means we're never away from our jobs. There is no weekend then. You have my number, if there is truly an emergency, text me and I can work on it. But I'm not going to sacrifice my break from work and check email just in case there is something to do. Why is this unreasonable?

I work for an old stodgy tech company. We've had a small number of WFH or hybrid employees for decades. CEO just made it clear that we will return to the status quo. There will be no paradigm shift. If you were an office worker before, that's what you will return to. I actually officially switched my status to fulltime WFH in 2020 so luckily I'll be spared. CEO threw in aside that if you want to move up the corporate ladder, you show your face in the office. Guess that rules me out of C-Suite consideration.

I live in Ohio and they are trying to sort out who owes local income taxes and who doesn’t. We recently had to declare where our primary work space will be they 2021. I got lucky because there are no local taxes when I work from home and I won’t have to pay the 7% city income tax for working in a city I don’t live in. It’s a nice bump in my paycheck. Sorry, not sorry for the bloated city budget.

I am 38 and haven’t worked a “job” job in 2 years. I quit to throw my hat in the cannabis boom while going back to school to learn a trade. Well, nothing ever goes as planned; fast forward to now I am fatter ( I was injured during covid) waay more depressed than I ever was before and am looking for part-time service industry jobs just to get back on my feet, lose some weight and interact with others again. One could say covid and a bad injury tainted my time of “not working”, but I can’t wait to start working again. I don’t know if I could go back to office work, however.

Many jobs are better than office jobs. They earn less, sure, but when the job is done, the job is done. You lock the doors or you put the shovel back where you found it, and that's it.

What's so godawful about office jobs these days is the 24/7 reachability, and the (unspoken) expectation that you constantly engage with work emails, Slack/Teams, and so on.

The vacation situation in the US is truly the saddest thing ever. Five weeks (25 work days) is the default in most West-European countries, and many employers go beyond that (e.g. 30 work days). Add to that the regional holidays (Christian, national, etc.) and most people enjoy around 35 to 45 work days off per year. And it's expected that you take your vacation, some employers go as far as having a serious talk with you if your vacation balance is too high at the end of the year.

I hope things change for the better in the US, but not even the Democrats seem to be interested in changing that.

[quote]...the CEOs will point out the Chinese are working the 996 schedule and on the way to becoming the biggest economic power. Workers can't win.

I think you hit on an in important point, R115. The idea of winning is an illusion.

It seems pretty inevitable that China is going to grab the GDP prize from the U.S.: their current numbers, rate of growth, population, infrastructure, and single-minded devotion to the goal. The U.S. has long had a competitive mentality somewhat integrated into national character: We're #1! and all that, even though it's #1 only in military might and GDP, the other crowns lost along the way. And really it's pretty fucking pointless: to break you back working 12 hours a day and 6 days a week for what, edging out another nation in GDP? And what exactly does GDP mean for workers who don't share in the prize of the executives who receive win or lose bonuses while the 99.9% of the workers are told to make sacrifices, to work harder faster smarter, to exceed goals, to do even more with even less, and to act like they're happy doing it? What they often get is a rejiggered bonus formula that acknowledges great success but successes that just didn't meet the mark the the executive committee for this year (after they took their bonuses.)

Employees are expected to play this game every year and to think they are doing something important in doing it. All the while the company is shopping itself around for acquisition by a larger company which contemplates saving only a modest percentage of staff; the real goal was rights to produce X and Y from the bought company's "catalogue" only more cheaply and more efficiently.

Americans are constantly competing with themselves not to get ahead —there's little danger of that— but rather not to get fucking fired and have to plug in your LinkedIn and shop yourself around like a piece of meat finally landing a lateral move with no more pay, no extra benefits, and the meagre two weeks of vacation won't be available in full for two years, so that time that your last boss discouraged you from taking off, it's not even on the table until you get a week after being there a year. Oh, and you'll have to work harder starting out for those two years as well.

What's the point of all this competitiveness other than extract the maximum blood from workers while providing the least possible benefit to them? Keep them hungry. Keep them fearful.

I was at a resort in 2009 and at the business center computers a young guy next to me was on the phone with his wife (presumably in the room or out at the pool with the kids) and he was saying, "Goddamnit, every time I go away they change my job on me!" He sounded so miserable and frustrated I felt sorry for him. Couldn't even take a vacation in peace. Guys of my dad's generation (blue collar, granted) could afford a vacation AND to forget about the job for awhile. I guess. Maybe it's rose-colored glasses. My dad worked himself to death and died two years into social security.

"What's the point of all this competitiveness other than extract the maximum blood from workers while providing the least possible benefit to them? Keep them hungry. Keep them fearful."

Ding! Ding! Ding!

You hit the nail on the head, r119. My friend and I talked about this a lot and we know that most companies pay just under what it takes to be able to save or afford something without charging it. Most of us earn just enough to get by but not enough to ever be able to stop working until we die or retire (if that's even possible). I'm in my early 50's and already my body is screaming when I have to work overtime. I got in bed last night and realized I hadn't done anything physical in days except move from my bed, to my computer to work, then back to my bed. I could feel my legs buzzing in an odd way. I put in a ton of OT this weekend and wasn't able to work out at all and boy did my body tell me about it. My job for the past 23 years has been sitting for 8 hours + per day and of course my body reflects that. I don't think I can do this much longer, much less until I'm 67. This life is a joke.

R121 it’s really bullshit. And then you have the 0.000001% sitting on all the money and having billion dollar fun flights to “space” during a time of great suffering and uncertainty. It’s SICK!

Yup, r122. I follow Ross Matthews on FB for some reason and he posts constantly about buying and selling properties. Yesterday or the day before he posted a picture of his house in Burbank, CA and proclaimed that it sold over asking price. No one commented but I wanted to tell him that it's in such bad taste to put shit like that out there as so many cannot afford to buy a house. And there he is bragging about how it went for more than he asked. I know he's not part of the 1% but shit like that irks me. I would just be happy to be able to afford a one bedroom apartment here instead of this tiny, 400 sq ft box of a guest house I have lived in for 23 years.

[quote] Here's a bit that you are all missing: the more highly paid the job, the more hours you are expected to work.That is a HUGE shift from earlier times when The Poors worked backbreaking schedules and the The Rich played golf and went out for three martini lunches.

Great point, R110.

As recently as the late ‘70s, the higher-ups strolled in around 9:30. They did stay later than the peons because upper-middle and upper-class people used to operate on a later schedule than working stiffs. Nevertheless, they were gone by 6 – home for cocktails and a civilized dinner at 7:30 or 8.

Now, it’s the opposite. The sweaty strivers are in the office by 7:30 and seldom leave before 6:30. “Work is fun!” they say. What impoverished lives our supposed betters lead these days – the only things they spend time on are work, family and an unwinnable but endless pursuit of a "healthy lifestyle". Boring, boring people.

This is what happens when you pretend to have a meritocracy. It’s still inherited (how many of the higher-ups in your company come from poor or working-class backgrounds? Probably none or nearly none), but now everybody pretends they achieved success by their own hard work and are the thus virtuous and deserving, while anyone who's not as rich as they are just needs to work harder.

I never listened to anything but public radio and I remember in the 90s listening on the local public station to two corporate suits being interviewed about longer work days and laughing their asses off about it, also when the interviewer mentioned the French, chortling and saying that degrading the American workforce (they didn't call it that, of course) would force the French to also drop vacation time and add work hours. I thought then that the U.S. was going down the shitter. Why did we put up with this? Labor actions work, boycotts work, and outing the corporate execs for financial crimes works, but instead everyone just went along with it. And then came the Ayn Rand bullshit. Doesn't anyone realize she was a first class grifter with no talent? She just jerked off to considering herself an extraordinary person and of course, just like grifting fundamentalist preachers, got rich doing it.

I Quit the Olympics!

Don't be the guy who when it was time to die realized he hadn't lived.

I loathe work so much and also loathe the silly conceit of 'others in xxxx work harder for less' or 'we worked harder under the previous management than you do now, so you can't complain, etc.' Labor has been conned for decades and laborers continue to support the con in their misguided quest for stationary status. Social security is a joke thanks to republicans - retirement age should be 50, not 62, 70, whatever. Also benefits should be more equal instead of however much you paid in. I must ask - why are workers so toxic? I have to ignore and sometimes defend myself from sarcastic pricks and self-serving management every single shift. Americans must be mentally ill as a whole. Anyway Millennials and Zoomers are good whiners so there are tailwinds for reform, but the status quo has so much leverage in their favor (healthcare benefits, inflation, etc.) I've worked through the entire covid year in manufacturing for a below-average wage and have lucked out somewhat in the stock market, but the level of risk is immense. I'm seeking another job but I don't expect much success since I'm in my 40s. I hope to ditch the job over the next 3 years and maybe live off of an eventual beach rental or property sale along with stock trading. Insurance coverage is a deterrent to quitting, however.

I suspect the slow drip torture of wages not quite keeping up with the cost of living has been deliberate. If your income suddenly drops 20% you know something is wrong and either change jobs, adjust your lifestyle or get angry and fight back. But if it drops 20% over 20 years you find yourself wondering what happened as you dip into retirement savings or put your groceries on the credit card, yet again.

Another fan of r119 here. Since GDP stands for “gross domestic product,” that metric doesn’t mean squat in assessing the welfare of all the individual workers producing all that wealth:

[quote]And really it's pretty fucking pointless: to break your back working 12 hours a day and 6 days a week for what, edging out another nation in GDP? And what exactly does GDP mean for workers who don't share in the prize of the executives ….

Exactly. Plus, OF COURSE China is going to overtake the US in GDP—it has fucking a billion and a half people, and its economy is state-run, by an authoritarian government, which recognizes zero human rights. That’s no meaningful measure of prosperity.

But the US is no longer prosperous. The economist who developed the measures for calculating the U.S. GDP said, in 1934:

[quote]Economic welfare cannot be adequately measured unless the personal distribution of income is known. And no income measurement undertakes to estimate the reverse side of income, that is, the intensity and unpleasantness of effort going into the earning of income. The welfare of a nation can, therefore, scarcely be inferred from a measurement of national income as defined above.

So yes, commuters are dragging their resentful feet getting back to the office. The WSJ a few days ago ran a headline “Yes, the Boss Wants You Back in the Office. Yesterday.” We need another labor movement, but workers have no leverage when capital is international.

It feels like most corporations can’t survive without cheating their workers. They need them to put in unpaid time, provide their home wifi or electricity. Expectations may vary.

All I know is I worled like a bitch doing everything you're supposed to do to end up securely middle class and got the rug pulled out from under me by corporate greed and criminal banks. How is it going to be any different for coming generations? I'd go out in the streets about it but nobody wants to. In the U.S., not being rich is a cause for shame and self-hatred, not rage and determination to redress the balance.

^ ^ worked

For many companies the decision of carry on working from home versus every back to the office comes down to commercial real estate.

Four years left on a five-year lease (or a newly completed owned corporate HQ) and it's "asses back in those 'Aeron' chairs."

Six-months left on a lease (or the possibility of selling off some owned space) and it's tempting to decide to go with WFH and pocket the savings

The hybrid schemes are mostly waiting out those lease renewals, making everyone a recurring guest star on some odd rotation, or paring the "office" down to a series of meeting spaces and debating whether to do the big annual meeting in a hotel conference center or as a Zoom meeting.

Whatever they thought before, employers know now what they can expect of WFH. A lot of the decisions will come down to the pride of sticking with a fairly unbreakable office lease agreement or the cost-savings of saying "everybody work from home" and when this thing expires in September, we're saving $15K per employee per year (or whatever the figure is in whatever area.)

I look at NYC and very few senior people live anywhere near the office.

Even the people in Manhattan are looking at a 20-40 minute commute from UES or UWS depending on where their office is and suburbanites can spend well over an hour each way, especially if they are coming from CT or northern Westchester.

All I hear from people of all ages is how much more productive they are now that they don't have to factor in the commute and how they have time to do things like exercise or engage in hobbies.

WFH also lets people feel in control of their lives. Most white collar tasks can be done over time so if someone needs to go to a dentist appointment or kids soccer game, they can go and finish up what they were doing when they get back and no one is any the wiser as the tasks will still be done in time.

Bad managers don't like WFH because they can't play their control games remotely, but if you hire the right people and trust them to do what they do, it's much easier. But bad managers don't trust their employees, which is where the problem lies.

R131, corporations can survive by paying and treating their workers fairly. How is Costco doing it? How is In N' Out, slinging cheap burgers, paying every manager at all their locations over 100K and their employees $15 minimum hourly wage? And that's just for selling burgers and fries. Corporations can do it too but then they can't give their CEO multi-million dollar salaries and multiple more millions in stocks. Then apply this to a smaller extent to dozens to hundreds of other C Suite executives.

In N Out don't just make over 100K, they average $160,000. And that's info from 2018.

There is no connection between wages and prices in today’s corporate world

Wages are set at the lowest they can get away with, and prices are set at the best profit point

Raising wages won’t increase prices, but it will decrease profits, which is why these corporations are squealing like stuck pigs right now

Smart ones will respond to reality and adjust their balance sheets

Stupid ones will whine themselves out of business

The word has gone out in my company. The board of directors expect the same profit margins as the last 3 years. They currently have more volume requests than they produce. They are short about 5k employees, which will take six months to train if hired today. They can’t get people to apply that they would hire. The current employees have been cautioned not to take vacation until the companies inventories are in balance. And if we don’t work hard to catch up, we won’t get a profit bonus, which was sold to us as part of the benefit package. If I weren’t lazy and moral, I’d figure out a way to short the stock. Cause the employees don’t care anymore. Whadda they gonna do? Fire people and make their problems worse?

[quote]And if we don’t work hard to catch up, we won’t get a profit bonus, which was sold to us as part of the benefit package

The profit bonus! In my company the calculation formula is a bit complicated, but I'll sum up the highlights:

Percent profit above goal DIVIDED BY the the hour that two trains will pass if one leaves NYC at 15.30 traveling at at an average rate of 115 mph and an airplane leaves Prague destined for Copenhagen at 22.10 that same day, LESS the circumference of Dillinger's dick MULTIPLIED by the fraction written under the drawer of a desk in a Butte, Montana house museum.

Transparency translation: you'll take what your given. Thick and thing it's between 2000 and 3500.

And for five years they've been shopping the company for acquisition so it's always "sales and profits were great and quite substantially above expectation, but next year we face new challenges and cannot assume that our good fortune will hold, for that reason we have frozen raises" (or kept them at the feeble rate.of 2.3% to 2.43%)

R135, it's the same in every big city, although the degree varies depending on the local commuting situation. (LA ... just as bad and DC nearly so.)

I suspect people work longer hours when they WFH. I know I do. I get up, get my coffee, and start working. I work until it's time to do something about dinner. During that time, sure, I also tend to some personal stuff, but total worked hours is still greater ... and I'm happy about it! Employees are willingly working MORE time and are happier doing it. How stupid would it be to force them to work fewer hours and be more miserable?

For every person like you, R141, there's at least three who spend their days watching Netflix and doing personal errands.

R142 that’s bullshit. Yes, people have flexibility now. But from what I’ve seen, the work is still getting done. I don’t care if it’s getting done while having sex. If it doesn’t get done, that person will not have a job for long. No company is paying people to do nothing. Now go away.

R142: Yes, your shit smells like it has its own agenda.

People who work from home have some measure of time and work completed, just as in an office. The cranky insecure boss who cries that nothing is getting done because he doesn't see enough asses in chairs has only to look at what has to be accomplished in any week, month, year, and by any group or person and there is the answer. Work completed is work completed, whereas asses in chairs may or may not mean work is taking place.

Bullshit, R142. My company has been WFH for over 1,5 years now. Literally ZERO drops in productivity. Granted, we also didn't see much of an uptick, but that is absolutely fine.

And no, we're not the only company where WFH works very well.

The same people who take advantage of WFH took advantage in the office.

In the modern white-collar world, employees are not paid to punch a time clock or sit in a chair but to accomplish various projects and tasks. Many of those tasks may be as meaningless as TPS reports, but somebody will notice if they're not getting done. If nobody notices in the WFH environment, then they wouldn't have noticed in the office environment, either.

One problem with WFH from the employee perspective: lack of ergonomic furniture. My office chair and desk are much more comfortable for spending a long time at the computer, which is basically what I do for a living besides go to meetings and act like I'm in charge of something. What we need are more and better options for outfitting home work stations without paying what your employer pays Herman Miller or Steelcase. Or maybe companies could make a little cash selling off WFH employees' chairs. (The desks are usually not portable.) I recall a few days when I was working on spreadsheet-intensive projects when I would happily have paid $$ for my Aeron office chair.

I’m thinking of quitting my job.

I think work-from-home attracts a certain element. I can’t describe it, but it’s not good. The people I’ve dealt with have been office bullies.

I would say it is likely that R142 does not work in a white collar job and that is why they are convinced workers will "watch Netflix" and goof off.

White collar jobs are as R146 describes and most white collar workers want to do well and succeed and get promotions because they get that high paying jobs are not easy to come by and have likely seen former colleagues slip out of the workforce and be unable to climb back in because they lack the skills and connections and work product.

R148 gets points for using the Maiden Aunt Brigade-ism "a certain element" though it's usually used to describe Black people or poor people, not office bullies. (Though why an office bully would want to be in a situation where they are unable to bully anyone is unclear.)

Ugh^. 🙄

I've worked from home for nearly 10 years. I get work done but if I'm honest, I also do a lot of personal stuff. Mostly reading and posting on DL. I hate my job and manager if that provides any context. Not having to deal with said manager in an office setting certainly makes the job tolerable. Still, after so many years, familiarity breeds contempt. We barely can stand each other at this point. I'm leaving for another position within the company but of course management is making the transition as long and painful as possible.

Someone once said only 10% of any job is essential. I took from that that sucking up to higher ups and seeming to be advancing their agendas is the essential 10% of most jobs.

R146 - there are many places that sell refurbished Aeron and Steelcase chairs--they get them from companies that are moving or have gone under, clean them up and replace any broken parts, etc.

You can get one for anywhere from $400-600 and they look good as new.

I would check Craigslist, Ebay and Facebook marketplace for a place near you. Go see them in person as ypu can check them out to see which one you like best.

With the stock market boom of the last year, the reality is that it's not just the 1% who are richer than ever before: the American middle class who hold stocks are richer than ever before. Really, there's never been so much money sloshing round looking for somewhere to go. That's the truth of it. A helluva lot of people have done incredibly well during the pandemic, and that includes a vast swathe of the middle class.

[quote] With the stock market boom of the last year, the reality is that it's not just the 1% who are richer than ever before: the American middle class who hold stocks are richer than ever before. Really, there's never been so much money sloshing round looking for somewhere to go. That's the truth of it. A helluva lot of people have done incredibly well during the pandemic, and that includes a vast swathe of the middle class.

R154 = Mitt Romney

The subset of Americans who hold enough stock to be "richer than ever before" are NOT middle class. You are referring to households with a net worth high enough to put them in the Top 10%. The middle class are still struggling with flat wages, modest savings and rising costs due to inflation -- the middle class don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in the stock market.

Yeah, some of you are out of it. Over half of Gen Xers have NO retirement savings. They certainly don't have stock portfolios.

What’s the Average Retirement Savings by Age?

• Ages 18-24: $4,745.25

• Ages 25-29: $9,408.51

• Ages 30-34: $21,731.92

• Ages 35-39: $48,710.27

• Ages 40-44: $101,899.22

• Ages 45-49: $148,950.14

• Ages 50-54: $146,068.38

• Ages 55-59: $223,493.56

• Ages 60-64: $221,451.67

• Ages 65-69: $206,819.35

Oh well dear fellow DL's, wish me luck. I retire on Saturday. Made the decision in January when I came back from leave to 11 days straight with 2 co-workers out with workplace injuries, the team leader on stress leave and another two down with sick leave. I'm leaving with my body and dignity intact. I am not gonna work myself into an early grave, Don't care if I'm retiring into lockdown. There's a garden to tend, books to read, a bike to ride, Korean dramas to binge and friends to phone.

Life is short, so fuck work.

Well done, R158. You're in charge of your time now. Enjoy!.

I was thinking I would ride out another couple years with my job because it is easy and stress free and mostly interesting. Except that lately it isn't, so I am itching for the least reason to quit.

But with Social Security most Americans seem to do pretty well in retirement. If you look at the figures, most end up with an income of $40-$45k, which if they own their own home, is quite comfortable.

Appreciate OP who started this thread...

Yep. And I donated or sold nearly everything I own. I learned about investing during my lay off, and made a couple of smart investments, so I'm not really worried about money. I left my home state and am currently at an AirBnB out in SW Minnesota, living out my Little House On The Prairie fantasy until I figure out what's next. I'm thinking London.

London is very expensive, r162. What will you do about healthcare? How long would you need to be in residence to qualify for its nationalized healthcare?

R160. Boomers, with their pensions, who bought their houses cheap, as they all did, are fine.

Gen X - only 60% are homeowners, and over 50 % have no retirement savings.

Things won't be fine for Gen X, and then Millennials, who have very low rates of home ownership.

R163 You pay a fee for the NHS when you apply for a visa. I can stay for 6 months at a time without a visa. I'll keep my current medical benefits until I figure out if I would like to stay beyond the first 6 months. I have visited several times and I already know I love it. I've studied there as well. Whatever I decide, I'm thankful for the freedom I have to be in a position to make such a decision, as I wouldn't have been had we not a worldwide pandemic.

Never heard of the Aeron chair. Thanks, guys.

Good for you, R158. Let us know how you’re doing.

R160, you are mistaken. The Greatest Generation bought houses at 5-10 thousand and saw them appreciate by the 1970s to hundreds of thousands. In 1980 in Los Angeles, a shack was $100,000. Those houses appreciated much more slowly and most late boomers, if they bought houses (remember the condo phenomena?) had all their money sunk into them. Remember the 2008 crash? On the verge of retirement, those same boomers saw their investments lose half their value in half a year, plus stocks crashed.

Many boomers, particularly those who graduated college after 1972 never had full-time jobs or pensions. Corporations ditched pensions after the last G.G.s retired. There's a book about it by an economist but I forget the name. Early boomers lucked out and got the tenured fulltime faculty positions for instance, while later boomers were the first to be relegated to adjunct (half-time) permanent status with no benefits. So, sorry, but the millenials are hating on the wrong generation.

It’s not work that people hate, but office politics, the backstabbing, “colleagues” stealing your ideas, the punching down, sadistic managers, etc. If I could earn a leaving cleaning toilets, I’d do it in a heartbeat.

^ “earn a living”

There's a good episode of The Daily Podcast today that talks about why so many restaurant/service industry workers are leaving/have left their jobs. (Long hours, bad working conditions, low pay.)

My employer announced to us today that they're moving us from a 35-hour work week to the standard 40 hours starting later this year. How nice. Because we weren't all stressed and overworked enough as it is.

Wow, fuck them. Where’s your union?

This is probably not going to be a popular opinion, but the great resignation started way before COVID. How many times had you read of millennials quitting their jobs to hike around south east Asia- for several years? How many decided on the off the grid life? How many are travelling in their camper/vans or just leaving work because it was so much more fun to try to live on $500/year? How many don't have a dime to their name, but pick up jobs randomly so they can park their camper vans on the beach, become "influencers" and send perfectly posed photos home to those who are still working.

These people end up broke, coming home to no job, no place to live and no prospects for their future. Then it hits them at 40 that they have absolutely nothing.

COVID has exacerbated the problem, but it was there long before COVID hit.

Yes and no. I retired at age 47, but I have assets that need to be managed. I put in a few hours a week, and the rest of the time is mine. I've always been self-employed, so there was no need to resign.

R176: The "problem" you describe is maybe much, much bigger in your head than in reality:

[quote]of millennials quitting their jobs to hike around south east Asia- for several years

[quote]don't have a dime to their name, but pick up jobs randomly so they can park their camper vans on the beach, become "influencers" and send perfectly posed photos home to those who are still working.

[quote]travelling in their camper/vans or just leaving work because it was so much more fun to try to live on $500/year

Huh? The only people I know who do this are quitting the work world, they have enough money that they never had to join it.

And camper vans? Who lives in camper vans? or on $500 a year? You seem fixated on something more myth than reality and envious of living in a metal box that smells like farts and poverty.

As has been mentioned here before, there's quite a smattering of single gay sons and daughters who never really hold a steady job, but instead "look after mom" (a bit of gardening, a bit of shopping) and inherit the house. They live really blissful quiet lives on the whole, and make a mockery of all the "devote your life to work" paradigm which enslaves and consumes the lives of most souls on the planet. They never need resign because they never got on the concentration camp train to begin with.

And I've met quite a few because they're ALWAYS available for afternoon sex!!!

[R176]

You're an idiot. If you Google camper van living, you'll get more than 60 million results. Just because you don't read enough or get out enough, you have no clue about this subject, and, I'm assuming, many others. And yes, some do leave with $500, sometimes less, because they play until they run out of money then do odd job gigs. I supposed you've never heard of tiny house living or shipping container living, either.

Oh, and don't feel too ashamed that your post was wildly ill-informed.

I'm not R176, but I googled as you suggested and didn't see any statistics about millenials adopting this lifestyle. Citation?

Just grab the shit can!

[R181]

It appears that you're having trouble Googling the correct search terms. Just Google "millennials and camper van living." You'll find thousands of articles, blogs, vlogs and Instas about millennials and camper van living.

God, you old queens. Millennials living out of camper vans is a thing, usually done for both lifestyle and social media content. Millennials have homes to go to and usually the ones you see have a Plan B in the form of mom and dad's suburban home is life gets too spartan. See Nomandland for how camper van life is for the people trying to live on $500/year. It is a valid lifestyle that some people take to, but I wouldn't call it a huge craze among millennials as a whole.

The kitted out camper vans you see on YouTube are $$$ - over $100K

At my company, not one person was allowed to work from home. During the worst of the pandemic last year (and what is ahead of us this year), we all came into the office and will continue to do so. I will be 66 later this year and have not had a great vacation since 2015. I continue to work for now because I want to retire in order to travel, or at least take one nice trip to Europe every 1-2 years. But who can go anywhere now? So I guess I will continue to work until, as I think Sylvia said above, I "rage quit" and I feel that I come close to that at least one or twice a week.

That sucks R185

What type of work does your company do, that they felt it was important for you to all be in the office?

I'm contemplating it. If I thought I could I would. I hate working. I recently came into some money that will allow me to pay off my mortgage and bank a good amount. I think I have enough to retire, I just don't know what it looks like annually. If I can't, I'm close. I need a proper analysis.

I very much admire all you who've thrown in the towel on this lunacy, appreciating life is short. Because it is. And workplaces generally suck.

For god's sake R185...you're 66! If your finances allow it, retire. Why put yourself through this shit and risk your health?

My new job is 100% remote, and I can work from anywhere in the US. I hope it's a keeper so I can move out of the big MAGA-infested city where I live.

R186: I work for a healthcare company, believe it or not-- in Florid-UH!! We could have easily worked from home but I think it is a control issue for management-- fear that working from home would mean that we would be watching Netflix all day instead of working. I am definitely retiring this year but, like many who posted here, I have excellent health insurance through my job. While I can go on Medicare, my insurance covers my daughter who is quite ill and not currently working. So to Sylvia: while I will definitely be going sometime this year, I am hoping my daughter can get on her feet and get her own health insurance (mine through work is pretty great). But I do feel you about the "rage quitting" though my contract requires a 60 day workout once I quit. But at least once I quit I know I will be gone after 60 days! I will keep you all posted; you have all been very kind (which sometimes DL actually is!)

R182, it appears you want me to do the research to prove YOUR point. How about you link to JUST ONE of those articles about how many, many millenials are choosing van life?

Always found the concept that you must work to have health care but the working is what is causing your ill health to be an exercise in circular reasoning.

Most of the people on this thread need to unhitch.

"These people end up broke, coming home to no job, no place to live and no prospects for their future. Then it hits them at 40 that they have absolutely nothing."

True, R174, then they whine on Reddit about how the boomers "pulled the ladder up" or "hoard all the jobs and housing". Never mind that the average boomer has been working for 45-60 years and so naturally have more money and property or that the average boomer wasn't the one to ship jobs overseas.

^ Boomers the most rapacious generation.

I know boomers in the service industry who had hit the top of their pay scale. They were harassed into leaving or had their schedules changed weekly until they quit. They were inevitably replaced by millennials at a much lower hourly. Boomers in offices received the same tratment done differently-- their "group" was eliminated but they could apply anywhere else in the country for a job with the co., so they weren't technically laid off or fired. Of course all the other locations weren't hiring. All of these were in Fortune 100 companies. The office workers always thought they were above the fray as blue collar workers' unions were screwed. Instead of unionizing, the office drones are now faced with their own battle. To modernize Niemoller: They came for the UAW and I said nothing, they came for the USWA and I didn't care, now they've come for me and there's no one left to care. The Europeans, except the Brits got that right.

I stopped working at 56 and am living off savings and investments until I go on SS. I sometimes work odd jobs here and there which total about $10-12,000 per year. I paid $600 month for health insurance until a friend pointed I qualify for Medicaid (I live in NY). At first I felt weird about being on Medicaid but I do qualify and I’m not doing anything shady so.........

^ Smart are you.