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Courtney Love, a "gay icon"?

She has obviously always been gay-friendly, and a fair number of her fans are gay men (I myself am one of them), but I've never really gotten the impression that she was a "gay icon," at least not In the traditional sense. I just came across this article from some years back and thought it was a fun read. She's certainly had the drama and tragedy. Her band being named "Hole" certainly helps, too.

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by Anonymousreply 148August 14, 2022 12:08 AM

Believe me, she doesn't give a shit about gays. I have no idea why she would ever be called "a gay icon."

by Anonymousreply 1April 21, 2021 2:51 AM

No.

by Anonymousreply 2April 21, 2021 2:53 AM

That’s a negative, little lady.

by Anonymousreply 3April 21, 2021 2:54 AM

I find the idea of a gay icon is becoming more and more outdated since we have so many openly gay men and women in the public eye. It only made a lot of sense when there was little to no representation of gay people.

by Anonymousreply 4April 21, 2021 2:55 AM

Pete Burns said in this interview that when she lived in Liverpool, she used to scream “faggot!” at him all the time.

Fuck her. She’s a piece of shit.

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by Anonymousreply 5April 21, 2021 2:59 AM

In her grandiose daydreams, yes. For real gay men, no.

by Anonymousreply 6April 21, 2021 3:00 AM

Kurt Cobain would have been a better gay icon. He was always vocal about gay rights and even crossdressed. He and Dave and Kris would make out after a show in public to express support of gays. There's even pictures of Kurt hanging out with RuPaul.

Courtney is a wannabe Madonna and just as sociopathic.

by Anonymousreply 7April 21, 2021 3:02 AM

She did go up to bat for the gay community during a VH1 awards show back in the day. This was in 1997, when it was still a much more controversial topic than it is today. She could have purely been doing it for attention, but I don't know.

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by Anonymousreply 8April 21, 2021 3:05 AM

R7 I mean... why are we pretending Courtney wasn't in that photo with Ru as well? Lol. She's problematic as fuck and will always have her haters (some of it deserved). But I don't see why she can't be a gay icon, especially considering some of the others we have. She and Kurt always supported gay rights. And as a young bullied gayling I did find some solace in her angry, sensitive music. Her fanbase has always skewed gay and lesbian, as well as half the musicians in her bands over the years.

She did do the soundtrack for a gay movie (Adam & Steve) and condemned homophobia in the Fashion Awards speech posted above. Penned the below love note to the LGBT community for Billboard.

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by Anonymousreply 9April 21, 2021 3:11 AM

She has also done a lot of fundraising for gay causes, including many events with Elton John and headlining this concert for the LA Gay and Lesbian Centre to raise money for homeless gay youth.

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by Anonymousreply 10April 21, 2021 3:12 AM

Oh, and she starred in the gay film Julie Johnson (2001) opposite the great Lily Taylor (and featuring a young Mischa Barton). For her performance, Courtney won Best Actress at the Outfest.

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by Anonymousreply 11April 21, 2021 3:15 AM

Well, she’s right about the ‘hag’ part. Every celebrity, current and hasbeens alike, is trying to boost their career by claiming to be some kind of gay ambassador. I don’t buy this fake sincerity, especially when she’s been such a nasty person in the past. And we are seriously overusing and devaluing the word “icon” to the point that it’s lost all meaning.

Maybe she can be Colton’s gay guide since she knows this community so well.

by Anonymousreply 12April 21, 2021 3:16 AM

R9 this photo of all of them with RuPaul is iconic in and of itself

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by Anonymousreply 13April 21, 2021 3:23 AM

Her music has always been hard-edged but, at its core, very emotion-laden and sensitive. It's stereotypically masculine in that it's aggressive, but feminine in thematic sensibility. Both her personality and her music embody that dichotomy, which is one I think many gay men are familiar with. It's part of what's interesting about her.

by Anonymousreply 14April 21, 2021 3:28 AM

I have always liked Love. But i do worry her upbringing made sociopatholgy inevitable.

by Anonymousreply 15April 21, 2021 3:33 AM

Per Patty Schemel, the lesbian drummer of Hole, quoted in 2017:

"We had a really safe place [in Hole]. Courtney was a force that would not allow any of us to be spoken down to—or any of that kind of behavior in a space that we were in—no matter where we were. She was good at that. I felt safe in my band to come out as a gay woman."

I think that, coming from someone who is very close to Courtney, speaks volumes.

by Anonymousreply 16April 21, 2021 3:37 AM

I don't think being a vocal gay ally is the same as being a gay icon though. Plus, it seemed the icon status was mostly based around being embraced by the gay community at large. Whether or not the icon was pro-gay didn't seem to matter.

by Anonymousreply 17April 21, 2021 3:42 AM

The word icon is definitely way overused nowadays; it’s all but lost its meaning. However, Love has always had a sizable gay and lesbian following—the lesbians because they like that kind of music (as do I), and the gays because gay men love edgy women with outsize personalities. And as linked above, she’s done a lot for gay causes.

So she called Pete the ‘f’ word... maybe she was drugged out of her mind then and not as enlightened as she is now?

by Anonymousreply 18April 21, 2021 3:43 AM

absolutely R17, I was only challenging the notion that she "doesn't give a shit about gays" which was mentioned upthread

by Anonymousreply 19April 21, 2021 3:44 AM

R16

Which means that she was probably only nice to the ones that she liked and not the gay community as a whole. Liking some select homos does not a gay icon make. It’s great that she wants to be vocal now but I don’t recall her being a big advocate for gay rights when I was younger.

by Anonymousreply 20April 21, 2021 3:45 AM

Oh we’ll take her. She’s always been one of us, as in a FREAK.

by Anonymousreply 21April 21, 2021 3:47 AM

R20 please refer to the video at R8

by Anonymousreply 22April 21, 2021 3:49 AM

I think Kurt was more of a gay icon (to me, anyway), but Courtney definitely ticks a lot of the crazy, extravagant, difficult diva boxes. And she is (or was) capable of making great music.

by Anonymousreply 23April 21, 2021 3:51 AM

Not only is she a good ally (we can forget the ancient homophobia) but I think he tongue knows its way around a pussy. So there is that...

by Anonymousreply 24April 21, 2021 3:55 AM

Tara Reid was also recently calling herself a gay icon. Idk, maybe now after she’s wrecked we love her to make fun of her. But all her years of Budweiser tits what’s that have to do with us? But once again, we’ll take her cos no one else fuckin wants her.

by Anonymousreply 25April 21, 2021 3:56 AM

Her

by Anonymousreply 26April 21, 2021 3:56 AM

I think it’s because lgbt people welcome the outcasts because the str8s hate them or something like that.

by Anonymousreply 27April 21, 2021 3:57 AM

Why do we have to keep having “gay icons” in 2021? When can we start calling actual gay people gay icons?

by Anonymousreply 28April 21, 2021 3:58 AM

Everything Courtney Love has been for HERSELF, not for anyone else, not for any group. If she has come out in support of gays it was only to make herself look good. She is SO full of shit.

by Anonymousreply 29April 21, 2021 4:00 AM

While Courtney does fit the tragic, suffering and attention-seeking diva aspects that many gay icons have and by all accounts was very gay friendly and vocal about gay rights. It was Kurt who was wearing makeup and dresses in public, making out with his bandmates on SNL, publicly going after Axl Rose for his homophobia, speaking out for gay rights and going on marches during the early 90s Bush era. He had an androgynous aspect to his lyrics and sang about being an outcast and not feeling masculine enough. The rock scene and audience was quite homophobic and having a famous straight male rock star speak up for gays was groundbreaking especially when HIV and gay panic was still in full-swing.

by Anonymousreply 30April 21, 2021 4:00 AM

The Courtney/Pete Burns drama is quite ancient, and not really worth judging her on IMO—even if it did happen as Pete says, Courtney was literally 14 or 15 years old (and a juvenile delinquent). I wouldn't take it to heart or be representative of her as an adult. IIRC, Pete worked at a record store in Liverpool that Courtney and her friend frequented while she was spending her year-long staycation in England as a recently-emancipated teenager.

by Anonymousreply 31April 21, 2021 4:01 AM

She kind of was I suppose. I loved her but idk if the gay community at large did so icon seems a bit inflated. Either way she was definitely a progay voice whether people knew it or not.

by Anonymousreply 32April 21, 2021 4:01 AM

This is the same woman who was out of her mind in an interview in the early 90s and said it was just allergy / cold meds ... so take it with a grain of salt.

by Anonymousreply 33April 21, 2021 4:05 AM

[quote]The Courtney/Pete Burns drama is quite ancient, and not really worth judging her on IMO—even if it did happen as Pete says

I doubt he was lying. Pete talks about it in another interview at the 6:45 minute mark. And honestly, most people who are assholes as teenagers stay assholes for the rest of their lives.

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by Anonymousreply 34April 21, 2021 4:08 AM

R34 if you keep watching, Pete goes on to praise her in that video as an example of a "strong woman" who he respects, and suggests her as a cultural replacement for Madonna. He may have admitted to hating her when she was a foul-mouthed teenager, but it seems things went full-circle eventually.

by Anonymousreply 35April 21, 2021 4:15 AM

R34 growing up back in the day homophobia was far more casual and widespread than in the last dozen years. So if she said something literally 30 years ago and has had a good record since, she should be granted absolution.

by Anonymousreply 36April 21, 2021 4:52 AM

I remember years ago (90s)on mtv when Kurt loder used to do these quickie “news” segments at the top of every hour, did a brief one of Courtney, centering around the fact that all of her boyfriends from high school grew up to be gay.

by Anonymousreply 37April 21, 2021 4:55 AM

R37 she also married a transvestite before she was with Kurt. He was on Jerry Springer in the '90s. I think he was a singer in a Portland band.

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by Anonymousreply 38April 21, 2021 1:32 PM

Her ridiculously over the top performance in the film Trapped solidified her camp icon standing to me.

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by Anonymousreply 39April 22, 2021 12:32 AM

Her closest friends in life are gay men, some of whom she put through school.

Don't talk about shit you don't know about.

by Anonymousreply 40April 22, 2021 12:38 AM

She's a hell of a better Gay Icon than half the pop twits so many gay men seem to idolize - I'd think better of us if we did embrace her as one and tell that inbred monkey-brain Britney Spears to fuck off

by Anonymousreply 41April 22, 2021 12:46 AM

R41 no offense to Britney, but Courtney has 100x the brains she does. Controversial as she is, Courtney is intelligent, much more so than most celebrities, let alone "gay icons"

by Anonymousreply 42April 22, 2021 3:42 AM

I’ve always loved her. She’s flawed and unlike most people we saw all her messiest most difficult times in the media.

by Anonymousreply 43April 22, 2021 3:45 AM

"Her closest friends in life are gay men, some of whom she put through school."

"Some of them she put through school?" You're full of shit.

by Anonymousreply 44April 22, 2021 3:57 AM

R44 I frankly don't find that hard to believe. Courtney is loaded. Her dropping some cash to pay tuition for someone she's close to wouldn't be that infeasible (or shocking).

by Anonymousreply 45April 22, 2021 4:10 AM

I mean...rejecting the status quo and identifying with the underdogs is very on-brand for her. Now that the status quo is no longer homophobic, one can't exactly self-promote by calling themselves a gay ally. That type of activism actually wore thin with Lady Gaga.

Good to know that she isn't anti-LGBT because she definitely isn't straight, regardless of what label she uses to identify herself or whom she's been married to and romantically linked with. Some sources claim she is downright lesbian behind the scenes, but likes to keep that detail private.

by Anonymousreply 46April 22, 2021 4:10 AM

By the way...Hole is an excellent band. If you're a fan of punk, grunge or Nirvana then I highly suggest you check out Hole's albums Pretty On the Inside and Doll Parts.

Celebrity Skin is pretty good, too, but a different vibe from the other two albums.

by Anonymousreply 47April 22, 2021 4:14 AM

R46 she all but admitted to going down on Kate Moss during a late-night lesbian fling in the '90s on Howard Stern some years ago. She also told Howard she "liked to kiss girls" but wasn't really into pussy, and that going down on women sort of repulsed her.

by Anonymousreply 48April 22, 2021 4:15 AM

Re: r47, I meant the album Live Through This, not the song Doll Parts. My Body The Hand Grenade is even better!

R48, I know, but that's only the content she's publicly willing to admit. There's much, much more information out there that suggests she prefers women but doesn't want to publicize it, for whatever reason.

by Anonymousreply 49April 22, 2021 4:20 AM

ATTENTION: We are discussing Love’s role as a “gay icon” which is not meant in any way to devalue her professional music career or her past work of helping the gays.

Lots of people have given supportive speeches in favor of equality but that doesn’t make them iconic. Hell, gay icons don’t even need to be gay to begin with. I appreciate what’s she’s doing now, I just wouldn’t use the term Gay Icon to describe her in any way, shape or form.

If anything, I think she would be a Rock Icon before a gay one but would she even be considered for that? Kurt was iconic, both musically and culturally—Courtney, not so much and not by a long shot, in my humble opinion.

by Anonymousreply 50April 22, 2021 4:26 AM

I always thought that like Sharon Stone a year before her she misplaced herself as a Lead Actress for Larry Flynt and would have fared better placing herself in Supporting. The movie is not about Althea despite her being the largest female role in the film. It's one of those parts like Reese Witherspoon, Geena Davis, Jennifer Connelly, Jennifer Lawrence, Sharon Stone where despite being the female characters with the most screen time, the movies they either won or were nominated for were not about their characters but rather largely about the male lead. I remember on the red carpet that year while talking to Roger Ebert she asked him "Did you think it was Supporting?"

by Anonymousreply 51April 22, 2021 4:32 AM

Agree with others here. Kurt was the gay icon. He was writing God Is Gay on his damn high school walls in the 80s. And in the very, very macho world of indie/punk/rock he was loudly and unapologetically pro gay - which was a death knell at the time.

Love is fine. But she never really used her platform for gays like Kurt did.

by Anonymousreply 52April 22, 2021 4:54 AM

R44 One of them is one of my closest friends, you ignorant cunt.

I've spent time with her, enough to know what she's like.

Why do you actually care? What do you know about this? Nothing.

Go make fag drama somewhere else.

by Anonymousreply 53April 22, 2021 5:41 AM

But DataLounge IS the place for fag drama, if I’m not mistaken. This whole thread qualifies as “pointless bitchery” as far as I’m concerned. Some of y’all are getting way too heated over this. It doesn’t have to be taken so seriously, like damn, but people forget that other people can have their own opinions about public figures and their reputations.

Let’s just agree to disagree.

by Anonymousreply 54April 22, 2021 5:54 AM

No one is friends with CL, not unless there are drugs, and even then, just until they're gone. I know her, too, which is why I'd never call her a gay icon. She is a shit.

by Anonymousreply 55April 22, 2021 5:59 AM

Courtney is a polarizing person. She has clear mental issues and while certainly a manipulative bitch. I've always felt she had a soft spot for certain individuals. I can see her being nice and protective to people she liked and being absolutely evil to people she disliked. People who are friends with Courtney speak very highly of her. People who are enemies speak very lowly of her. She really seems to have no balance here.

by Anonymousreply 56April 22, 2021 6:01 AM

R55 Tell is more if you know her!

by Anonymousreply 57April 22, 2021 6:09 AM

[quote] Oh we’ll take her. She’s always been one of us, as in a FREAK.

As another gayling who was sensitive and angry, I loved her music and personality more than Kurt, although I am still a huge Nirvana fan. Another vote for Courtney to be a gay icon. She threw a compact at Madonna. I mean...

by Anonymousreply 58April 22, 2021 6:10 AM

This should have been made a poll!

by Anonymousreply 59April 22, 2021 6:11 AM

Courtney is very similar to Madonna. Both are attention-seeking, manipulative and cold. Both want love and adoration and are so driven that they will throw people under the bus. Pushed many close people away with their attitudes. Seem to try to love others but have difficulty being vulnerable. Both have a stereotypical masculine energy (aggressive, competitive, cold).

by Anonymousreply 60April 22, 2021 6:24 AM

Courtney also has the kicked out of home, living with foster parents and institution vibe that gay kids of 90's and maybe even today can relate to. She's bad ass. If you were a gayling in the late 90's, it was usually the freaks in high school that embraced you. The crazy Courtney's of the world. I still love her. She is an absolute, unapologetic lunatic. Madonna feels less like an ally today than she did 20 years ago.

by Anonymousreply 61April 22, 2021 7:05 AM

There's no official measure for 'gay icon.' Personal musical tastes have to factor in.

The ones assigned by the media are "divas" with big voices and usually with bitchy attitudes, which most gay men seem to embrace. And of course the tragedies like Judy Garland.

I like many of them fine. My favorite artist, though, is Tori Amos. She's rarely regarded as a gay icon because she isn't mainstream, but anyone who has been to one of her concerts can attest that the audiences are the same people you would have found at any gay club in the 90s and 2000s: primarily gay men and their best female friends. And Tori has always been gay friendly without being pandering at all. So I embrace her as a 'gay icon' despite many gay men never having paid any attention to her.

Belting out soul music and doing mechanical pop dancing are not the only measures of what appeal to gay people. Many of us are nerds and we care more about lyrics that we can relate to than we do about women who YAAAAS BITCH!

by Anonymousreply 62April 22, 2021 7:30 AM

I almost mentioned Tori up-thread. The "gay icons" of us 90s teens are some cool, weird, alterna-chicks.

by Anonymousreply 63April 22, 2021 11:57 AM

R61 makes good points. Courtney has always been the quintessential outsider--she was a pudgy and homeley teenager, lived in foster homes and juvenile halls, and had a very peripatetic, unstable early life. Even in the "freak" and punk circles, she was obnoxious, divisive, and still on the fringe. Her career (especially the later phase where she went more poppy with Celebrity Skin) appears to be a grand effort to fit in and be accepted by people. Even still, there's always been an underlying "fuck you" streak in her where she's simultaneously bucked the status quo while still trying to gain their adulation. Her biggest quandary in life shares a lot of parallels with what most gay people experience and/or feel.

by Anonymousreply 64April 22, 2021 2:45 PM

Courtney Love is actually quite defensive of Britney Spears and warned that Brit could end up like Marilyn Monroe. All which makes sense once you realize how used and abused they were in their personal lives which caused their mental breakdown.

by Anonymousreply 65April 22, 2021 3:07 PM

I have more respect for her now in her later years when I can take a step back and appreciate both her music and her 'contribution' in the pop culture. Datalounge should love her, she's given us more messy / hilarious / real celebrity moments than almost anyone else. Remember when she publicly said the Jonas Bros need some cock? The infamous Madonna compact throwing incident? Bluntly spilling the tea about Harvey Weinstein in 2004, 15 years before everyone else swore they never knew about it at all? Letting the homeless man in NYC suckle at her tit on camera? Her surprising transformation into acclaimed, Versace-clad screen siren in the 90s?

The Demi Levatos and whoever else of today could never.

She's truly one of the last real 'rockstars' we ever had when you think about it (a dying breed, if not already deed). There's nothing she did that the male rockstars of the 60s-90s didn't do as well, yet she always copped 10x more flack for it as a woman.

by Anonymousreply 66April 22, 2021 4:20 PM

"Why do you actually care? What do you know about this? Nothing.

Go make fag drama somewhere else."

"Fag?" You homophobic scumbag piece of shit. Why should anybody believe anything YOU say, you fucktard. Go suck Courtney Love's rancid clam you miserable cunt.

by Anonymousreply 67April 22, 2021 5:41 PM

I think Courtney does out-rank Joan Jett in gay-icon status. For Joan -- even though she was on the True Colors tour once — the lesbian topic is Joan's Achilles Heel. Just like Queen Latifah. At least Courtney Love can discuss sexuality openly.

by Anonymousreply 68April 22, 2021 5:49 PM

I haven’t watched Drag Race in years, but has anybody played drugged out Courtney for Snatch Game, yet? Seems like a great choice.

by Anonymousreply 69April 22, 2021 6:02 PM

Courtney Love has kissed up to some gays, like Michael Stipe. And she said this of Kevin Spacey: "I worship the ground he walks on." But she's always done that with anybody she thinks she can get something from; she latches onto people who have genuine talent and leeches whatever she can get from them. That was noted in the Vanity Fair article about her.

An old boyfriend of hers found a list of things Courtney Love had written down, a list of "dos" that would aid her in her quest to be a rock star. One of them was "make friends with Michael Stipe."

by Anonymousreply 70April 22, 2021 6:03 PM

r69!

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by Anonymousreply 71April 22, 2021 6:05 PM

I don't think I will ever get her appeal (musically I like stuff like Siouxsie & The Banshees / The Creatures, PJ Harvey, Tori Amos, the Breeders, Björk, The B-52s, Grace Jones, Natacha Atlas, and others). Though I do give her credit for speaking out against Weinstein many years before his own actions caught up to him.

by Anonymousreply 72April 22, 2021 6:23 PM

She seems like the type who would have tormented the shy, gay nerd, not befriended him.

by Anonymousreply 73April 23, 2021 12:09 AM

[quote] She seems like the type who would have tormented the shy, gay nerd, not befriended him.

I see her as the type that would try to be nurturing and protective but end up toxic and abusive due to her own personal problems. A lot of narcissistic people think of themselves as good people and empathetic but are really emotionally abusive and manipulative. And narcissists tend to have childhood trauma which is why they want to "save others". I feel she was attracted to Kurt because he had that fragile and shy personality and she wanted to save/protect him but of course it was a volatile relationship on both sides. The drugs didn't help. Frances Bean had to cut Courtney multiple times and they have a complicated relationship

by Anonymousreply 74April 23, 2021 1:42 AM

R69 I think that Courtney herself was a guest judge on Drag Race a few years ago

by Anonymousreply 75April 23, 2021 2:55 AM

I don't think she cares about anybody in particular. She uses people, she doesn't care about them.

by Anonymousreply 76April 23, 2021 3:23 AM

Not pertinent to the gay icon discussion, but Hole's cover of "Gold Dust Woman" came on in my Youtube playlist mix today. I forgot how incredible their version of that song is. It's so dark and spooky sounding--the thunderous guitars throughout hit hard, and Courtney's snarling vocals on it are great. It's absolutely amazing. I believe it was recorded for the soundtrack to "The Crow" sequel, which contextually undersells the song (that sequel was pretty shitty). Oddly enough, it was produced by Ric Ocasek of The Cars, which is...well, kind of weird. But bravo.

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by Anonymousreply 77April 25, 2021 8:49 AM

I love this song so much more than one performed by a pop star in a bikini with a snake wrapped around her.

Or as Tori sings in one of her songs, "like a flag on a pop star on a benzodiazepine." Courtney Love took a lot of drugs but she's definitely not in a benzo trance.

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by Anonymousreply 78April 25, 2021 10:58 AM

Courtney delivers. She's playing a part. In a lot of way's, Courtney is a media-editor's dream. Because she never stops talking. One element of her aim that's so spot-on is that she landed a role in Sid & Nancy. Courtney — who was born into the rock-star-fucking world with landing on the Greatful Dead album as a young girl — built her "career" from the point that Nancy Spungen left. Marrying Kurt. Getting a Golden Globe nom.... Courtney nailed her destiny solid. Dunno if she has anywhere left to go. Talkshow host SEEMS like a natural stepping stone. I assume Courtney has turned down tons of offers. And I don't think Courtney would do a great job. But as a talkshow guest, Courtney is very good at being the guest and blathering on about a ton of provocative topics. Her Howard Stern appearances are excellent.

by Anonymousreply 79April 25, 2021 2:48 PM

Courtney Love has a unique, not pleasant but very interesting and powerful voice and has recorded and performed some great songs. She had a drug problem a tumultuous public relationship with another talented musician that ended decades ago. She's regarded as a has-been who is famous because of her relationship and despite her talents.

Stevie Nicks has a unique, not pleasant but very interesting and powerful voice and has recorded and performed some great songs. She had a drug problem a tumultuous public relationship with another talented musician that ended decades ago. She's regarded as a living legend who is famous because of her music career and regardless of her relationships.

by Anonymousreply 80April 25, 2021 2:57 PM

R78 "Northern Star" is maybe Courtney's crowning achievement as an artist. Her lyrics on that song are heartbreaking, gorgeous, and poetic, and Eric Erlandson's acoustic guitar on it is haunting.

by Anonymousreply 81April 25, 2021 3:47 PM

R80 Courtney is probably the type who will be lionised after she dies, if at all. Too provocative in her actual day. She has a lot of great quotes i'm sure they will be using when they memorialise her as a feminist rock icon of a generation. For the moment i'm just enjoying any further mess, music, and good acting performances she can offer us.

R77 I always loved that cover and thought she looked great as a brunette in the music video. She was very busy with her film career during that period between Live Through This and Celebrity Skin, but I wish we got more music from that era. 'Gold Dust Woman' shows the bridging of the gap between the raw emotion and guttural edge of LTT, with hints of the cleaner vocal tone and melodic power pop of Celebrity Skin.

by Anonymousreply 82April 25, 2021 3:49 PM

It's easy not to recognize her vocal performance talents because she sometimes sounds like she is just screaming, but the Miley Cyrus cover of "Doll Parts" makes Love's unique talent self-evident by comparison. Cyrus sounds great in this cover, but it comes across like karaoke by someone with an edgy voice who sings well, particularly at the crescendo of the song.

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by Anonymousreply 83April 25, 2021 4:04 PM

You can't help feeling the emotion of her performance. It's not about singing technically well, but about emotional expression.

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by Anonymousreply 84April 25, 2021 4:06 PM

[quote]R8 This was in 1997, when [homosexuality] was still a much more controversial topic than it is today.

That would make sense if you wrote [bold]1957

by Anonymousreply 85April 25, 2021 4:08 PM

R83 I thought she did a good job, but even Cyrus's voice sounds too "clean" for the song. Courtney has a nasally, throaty voice and limited vocal range, but I've still always found her voice very expressive, which is what counts as far as I'm concerned. Miley is very much a "pop singer doing a Hole cover" here.

by Anonymousreply 86April 25, 2021 4:08 PM

Pandora Boxx should have cemented Courtney Love as a gay icon, but it seemed like no one involved in the production of the show recognized the resemblance. Instead, she was compared with Bette Midler and Lucille Ball, which I thought was weird because "Pandora" is more of a Courtney Love chaos type of vibe and Pandora had a punky type of look.

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by Anonymousreply 87April 25, 2021 4:10 PM

The picture at R87 is giving me flashbacks to 2010 when Courtney was in her Aderrall-induced "kook phase," around the time she put out "Nobody's Daughter." She was spending all this time stitching together pieces of vintage fabrics and making insane dresses out of them. The batshit, quasi-drag, "Whatever Happened to Courtney Love?" looks she served during this time should be enough to cement her as a gay icon forever.

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by Anonymousreply 88April 25, 2021 4:17 PM

R85 How old are you? I completely agree with the person who wrote 1997.

I graduated from high school in 1996. I was tormented throughout middle and high school and I thought every single day about killing myself. I missed 40+ days of school every year, and my mom let me stay home because she understood that school was a fucking nightmare, and administrators and teachers back in the 90s, at least in suburban Northern Virginia, looked the other way when kids called other kids "fag" and assaulted them in the middle of a classroom. It was a dehumanizing experience.

And of course in 1997, "gay" was synonymous with "AIDS." And AIDS was still a death sentence then.

It seems strange that people who lived through the era would forget.

In my world, 1997 was the exact moment in time when it changed. That was the year random people everywhere asked me if I watched Will and Grace, and I soon realized that was their way of opening the door to letting me know that they are tolerant of gay people. ("Tolerance" was still the goal back then—can you bear us living among you?)

In 1998, I transferred to a university and I recall vividly sheepishly going to a gay pride alliance and feeling endangered for being so public, and then I boldly put a rainbow sticker on my car, which made my mom worry I was going to be gay bashed.

Matthew Shepard was murdered at the end of 1998.

The 90s overall was not a gay-friendly decade. It was the end of socially acceptable hatred of gay men.

by Anonymousreply 89April 25, 2021 4:18 PM

R82 I think she definitely will be heralded after she's dead. The funny part is she is aware of it, too—I remember her mentioning on Howard Stern that, in terms of her reputation and legacy, "once I'm dead, I'll be fine." She's right.

by Anonymousreply 90April 25, 2021 4:21 PM

I've watched a lot of reaction videos on YouTube this year, wherein young people watch older music videos for the first time. It makes me feel good to see young people discover Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Madonna, Jewel and others they had never heard and are wowed by their talents. I just realized I've never come across a video of anyone watching Courtney Love.

by Anonymousreply 91April 25, 2021 4:23 PM

You’re not allowed to be a gay icon if you SAY you’re a gay icon. It’s strictly against the rules.

by Anonymousreply 92April 25, 2021 4:24 PM

R92

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by Anonymousreply 93April 25, 2021 4:32 PM

The miracle of Courtney Love is how she’s managed to have so many great songs when she seems untrained and unstable. She clearly uses men to get there but her results have been pretty damned interesting. She must have a magic pussy or do the freaky shit because she’s never been good looking.

I love Violet, Celebrity Skin and Doll Parts.

by Anonymousreply 94April 25, 2021 4:41 PM

R30 ALL male entertainers, even macho Chick Norris, "wear makeup in public"

by Anonymousreply 95April 25, 2021 4:41 PM

R93 and?

What about Lady Gaga, her ENTIRE career has been built on her calling herself a gay icon and she's called that shit song Born This Way a gay anthem, tins of times...

by Anonymousreply 96April 25, 2021 4:48 PM

I could see Courtney in a broad sense referred to as a gay or queer icon.

She sorta is for some of the reasons listed above, sort of in a John Waters/underground kind of way.

by Anonymousreply 97April 25, 2021 4:50 PM

R96 I was just responding to the person who said anyone who self-declares as a gay icon is not a gay icon. No one would dispute Madonna is a gay icon.

by Anonymousreply 98April 25, 2021 5:02 PM

You are correct R89. I came of age in the 2000s and even then it was still not really accepted by a lot of people--it's not today either, but it's become accepted in the mainstream so the people who have a problem with it keep it behind closed doors. The zeitgeist pendulum swung. I remember being the subject of jokes occasionally in high school, before I came out. I am not extremely flamboyant either, but even still, people knew. Kids coming of age today don't get it because gay culture has fully infiltrated the mainstream. It was even starkly different 10 years ago, around the time I graduated high school.

by Anonymousreply 99April 25, 2021 5:04 PM

Also, I think Courtney is very much still emblematic of outsider culture—she is loathed by many, largely straight Nirvana bros who constantly shout murder at her. She is divisive for a whole host of reasons.

by Anonymousreply 100April 25, 2021 5:18 PM

Most gay icons fill a few specific criteria: female, talented, defiant or fragile, tragic or deluded. She checks all the boxes.

by Anonymousreply 101April 25, 2021 5:23 PM

Look, it's no secret that different gays have different icons, or divas, they worship.

Those "what? You don't worship her? You must, you simply must worship her!" temper tantrums don't convince anyone.

by Anonymousreply 102April 25, 2021 5:36 PM

True, R102. Courtney is the perfect fit for gays who respond more to punk/rock music than they do candy pop (there aren't enough of us, really). Someone like Joan Jett (who was mentioned upthread) is way too butch to fill the role, but Courtney has the perfect mix of feminine and masculine. She is both girlish and confrontational in a stereotypically male way. I think she probably intimidates a lot of insecure straight guys.

by Anonymousreply 103April 25, 2021 5:40 PM

Oh for fucks' sake, she will not be "lionized" or "heralded" after her death. This is somebody who did heroin while she was pregnant! Her obituary will rehash her insane life but she's not going to be held up as some kind of exalted figure. She was/is a trainwreck junkie whore, a pathological liar who took credit for songs that other people wrote. She'll be remembered for her craziness but not much else.

by Anonymousreply 104April 25, 2021 9:05 PM

I think Courtney is fascinating and more talented than given credit. She's also a narcissist and a drug addict who changes her story a lot. She'll become iconic for her outrageous behavior among teen girls on social media but I feel she won't be revised as a type of universal "gay icon" like Judy or Diana or Madonna (they had broader appeal). She is a gay icon for alternative and punk crowd because as above posters said she stood up for the LGB members of the rather homophobic alt rock scene.

by Anonymousreply 105April 25, 2021 9:44 PM

Someone who refers to themselves as a "fag hag" is not a friend of "the gays"(I hate that term).

by Anonymousreply 106April 25, 2021 9:52 PM

If there's one thing that Courtney Love lacks it's SINCERITY. Everything she does is for her own person gain, her own promotion. And that includes supporting gays in any capacity.

by Anonymousreply 107April 25, 2021 9:58 PM

[quote] Courtney is the perfect fit for gays who respond more to punk/rock music than they do candy pop

I know quite a few people that would consider her a gay icon & they're part of that crowd.

"Live Through This" was THEE gay teen album back in the 90s for people who weren't into R&B or pop. Violet, Miss World, Doll Parts & Softer Softest were often listened to and spoken of.

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by Anonymousreply 108April 25, 2021 10:00 PM

R104 I think you're wrong. She is already well-regarded in a critical sense, especially by the feminist crowd and most music critics. Her personal drama aside, she's consistently gotten great reviews for pretty much everything she's put out, even the weaker stuff like her 2004 solo record. While she'll always be demonized by a select few, I think she will go on to be respected for her music alone.

by Anonymousreply 109April 27, 2021 2:44 AM

"Her music?" No, it's music created by others that she took credit for. That's one of the worst things about Courtney Love, her glomming off the talent of other people.

by Anonymousreply 110April 27, 2021 2:48 AM

lyrically, celebrity skin is pretty sharp. she learned a lot from kurt

by Anonymousreply 111April 29, 2021 10:24 PM

R111 I think she learned more about riffs from Kurt than she did lyrics. Courtney's lyrics have always been very literary and cutting; Kurt's tended to be abstract and more fragmented in nature. She's always been a bookworm and has said herself she took words more seriously than the musical accompaniment. I think she's more a natural writer than she is a musician, to be honest. Instrumentally, she is limited. Celebrity Skin has standout lyrics, but a lot of the sound of that record came from Billy Corgan and Eric Erlandson.

by Anonymousreply 112April 30, 2021 1:44 AM

I didn't read this whole thread yet but I've been unfortunate enough to have lots of interaction with Courtney. She used to scream at me on the phone while in tears while high as a kite claiming she was a gay man in a woman's body. She's nuts and toxic. I'd put her on speaker and just sit back and listen to her rant. Fun times!

by Anonymousreply 113April 30, 2021 2:42 AM

I didn't read this whole thread yet but I've been unfortunate enough to have lots of interaction with Courtney. She used to scream at me on the phone while in tears while high as a kite claiming she was a gay man in a woman's body. She's nuts and toxic. I'd put her on speaker and just sit back and listen to her rant. Fun times!

by Anonymousreply 114April 30, 2021 2:43 AM

R112 I believe you, but we need more context

by Anonymousreply 115April 30, 2021 2:47 AM

I meant R113 / 114

by Anonymousreply 116April 30, 2021 2:49 AM

I don't know about learning from Kurt's lyrics... i'm a bigger fan of Nirvana than Hole because I love their melodies, but his lyrics are very adolescent and sarcastic and emo - emblematic of the generation he came from. Hers tend to be more poetic and filled with uniquely female imagery (all the references to mother's "milk" and "dresses" and "roses" etc.) and unconventional syntax and structures, like on "I Think That I Would Die" or the deviation at the end of "Reasons to be Beautiful."

When I was obsessed with both bands as a teen, I had her book of diary entries (actually a very nice book) and it's clear she always had a bit of a literary mind. As an adult I think her lyrics have aged slightly better than Kurt's.

by Anonymousreply 117April 30, 2021 2:02 PM

Opinions on her persona aside, I will admit as a front person of a band Courtney was a force. I don't know how many people here play or played guitar but Courtney moved in and out of progression and her strum pattern was super unique. She used weird almost dreamy augmented chords and she could hold the line live. Saw Hole a few times in the 90s and I have to admit I was pretty damn blown away by their sets. I know people get caught up in Courtney and her disasterous personality but I don't think she is credited for her playing style. Her guitar playing was WAY more interesting and unique sounding than 90% of the grunge bands of her day. I don't know if she is a gay icon or not, but I used to see tons of live rock shows, and Hole was a shockingly impressively live band.

by Anonymousreply 118April 30, 2021 2:42 PM

R118 I'm glad someone appreciates her guitar playing. I play too, and I think she had an interesting, unusual sound. I don't think she was a great guitar player by any stretch of the imagination, but as you say, her strumming patterns stand out—very jangly. She always struggled to maintain the guitar and vocals together, though—if you watch her, you'll notice she often stops strumming at key vocal moments before dropping back in. Eric Erlandson is a solid player and made up for this, and most people who don't play the guitar would notice.

I especially appreciate the guitar work on their debut album, "Pretty on the Inside". A lot of that record sounds unlike anything I've heard before or since.

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by Anonymousreply 119May 1, 2021 3:52 AM

Courtney Love can play the guitar? Not for my money. It's telling that whenever she "played" the guitar she would put her leg up on a monitor so the audience would get a good look at her crotch. Kind of distracting, it would seem. Distracting from the fact that she can't play a guitar worth shit.

by Anonymousreply 120May 1, 2021 4:04 AM

"Courtney Love. What a legend. Courtney Love's hand was called Hole. Not 'whole' as in complete. But Hole... as in dirty, stinky !@#$%^&*]. What a whore Courtney is. She would suck a dick for a Diet Coke. Don't worry, honey... I do it just for the taste of it."

by Anonymousreply 121May 1, 2021 4:25 AM

R120 she used to be able to play. If you watch the footage at R119, it's clear she's plugged in playing. Not great, but she could handle basic rhythm guitar---even when she had one foot on the monitor. I think that stage move had a dual purpose: first the shock factor of "is she gonna flash her pussy?!", and second, it gives you a steady footing and you're able to either prop your guitar up against your leg, or lift the fretboard up closer to you (depending on which leg you have on the monitor).

by Anonymousreply 122May 1, 2021 4:56 PM

Her musicianship sucked. Always.

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by Anonymousreply 123May 2, 2021 11:40 AM

Courtney is a narcissist. But she is capable of doing good things. Standing up for gays is commendable. Intentions don't matter to me if it's for the greater good of society. Nirvana is now blasted by straight frat bros and vapid young girls wear Nirvana t-shirts but miss the point of what the band was saying. Kurt stood up for gays, trans, poc, women and others. He was "woke" and spoke about toxic masculinity, white privilege and the evils of capitalism and war back in the early 90s. He marched at a gay pride parade. River Phoenix was also talking about this in interviews. Of course, being gay is more accepted now but in the early 90s of gay panic and HIV, it meant a lot.

by Anonymousreply 124November 3, 2021 11:53 PM

trans and poc? ^^

by Anonymousreply 125November 3, 2021 11:56 PM

Kurt wore makeup and dresses in public and alluded to some gender dysphoria. I don't think he was really trans, he was androgynous and he liked to play with the idea of gender bending. He was also openly critical of racism and he publicly bashed Axl Rose for GNR's "One in a Million" song and called Axl, a homophobic, sexist and racist. He was ahead of his time.

by Anonymousreply 126November 4, 2021 12:02 AM

He was just a product of the punk scene, much of which was also against racism, sexism, and homophobia, as well as being accepting of cross dressers and actual transsexuals.

by Anonymousreply 127November 4, 2021 12:06 AM

She's a gay supporter/ally - much of it genuine, a little for appearances. I don't think she has a problem with gays at all and has a gay following. That said, "icon" is a bit of a stretch.

by Anonymousreply 128November 4, 2021 4:39 AM

Courtney has said she was "raised by drag queens" in Portland when she was an emancipated, freewheeling teenager. I presume there is truth to this. I'm sure the gay community took her in, probably because she was a) obnoxious, and, b) insecure and troubled. As others have noted above, she has always been a "freak" in one way or another. She is very eccentric and, even when she's assimilating into mainstream celebrity culture, the "freak flag" is still visible to anyone paying attention.

by Anonymousreply 129November 4, 2021 2:07 PM

Half the punks she was down with when she lived in LA in Hollywood/Whitley Heights were gender queers and freaks, so this all tracks.

by Anonymousreply 130November 4, 2021 3:48 PM

She was my Britney, my Madonna

by Anonymousreply 131November 4, 2021 8:31 PM

I do like some of her music, but she and Nirvana were corporate, not creations, I think that part was real, but there was a very definite part of their fame that was absolutely created,

How do I know, or why I suspect this sort of thing? I was at a concert in Lawrence, KS about 18 months before Smells Like Teen Spirit came out on MTV. That concert was in an old cinder block building in the middle of a farm. It held max 200-300 people, and that night there were maybe 50 people. Nirvana opened for 247 Spies. They went from that to absolute stardom.

It's possible that happened "organically", but I'm not sure that's exactly what happened.

by Anonymousreply 132November 4, 2021 8:44 PM

This is the place I'm referring to as R132

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by Anonymousreply 133November 4, 2021 8:51 PM

This is one of the flyers. The show was Oct 1989

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by Anonymousreply 134November 4, 2021 8:55 PM

In that case, we're all gay icons. Full stop.

by Anonymousreply 135November 4, 2021 9:11 PM

meant to post this clip.

and other than Siouxie Sioux there were virtually no female "punk" artists.

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by Anonymousreply 136November 4, 2021 9:29 PM

R132/134… do you think maybe they went from “that” (in 1989) to stardom because… I don’t know, the music they put out in 1991 was hugely accessible and hooky and MTV and radio got behind them? And DGC put it out and promoted it?

There’s really no mystery or conspiracy to it. They were a once in a generation success story. Live Through This was massively hooky and accessible in the same way, and Love came with a built-in PR push just by virtue of being Kurt’s wife. They led the ‘women in rock’ movement that was part bullshit (thanks to music journalists) and part organic appeal among rock music’s fans at the time.

by Anonymousreply 137November 5, 2021 12:52 AM

You don't get it, r137, and that's fine.

by Anonymousreply 138November 5, 2021 3:01 AM

Why don’t you just say what you meant to say, R138?

by Anonymousreply 139November 5, 2021 4:12 AM

You had to be there. There are few performances that cannot be translated to recorded vs. live. The performances at the Outhouse, as strange as it might seem, are some of the best live shows I've ever seen. It was magnificent. All of the shows were around $5-$6 through the 80s. They were dirty. the whole thing was nasty, but at the same time wholesome. It was all ages, and I actually never did drugs, didn't smoke, didn't drink, but never had an issue with anything I did or didn't do out there. It really was a very special place in time and space.

by Anonymousreply 140November 5, 2021 4:39 AM

The Outhouse was and is one of the best places I've ever been. I really can't describe it. It was the dankest of places to go, but someone, some where knew how to pull it over together.

by Anonymousreply 141November 5, 2021 4:51 AM

The other thing I'm saying is Nirvana came somewhere out of nowhere from that scene.

I'm not disparaging anyone who came from nothing, but I have to say as it was unusual.

by Anonymousreply 142November 5, 2021 5:18 AM

God no.

by Anonymousreply 143November 5, 2021 5:20 AM

R132 I'm not sure what you mean by "part of their fame was absolutely created"—isn't that the case with most famous people? What happened in the 18 months after you saw Nirvana playing at a farm in Kansas was that they signed with David Geffen, which launched them into the mainstream. Before that, they'd only ever been on indie labels. They had established an underground following, and when A&R people started noticing that their music was resonating with young people, the big cats (i.e. people like Geffen) came calling. It's just a matter of exposure and resources—with someone like Geffen backing you, you can reach a much bigger audience. In those days, music labels were the equivalent to the movie studio system—they find and then "make" the stars.

Clearly, this process was difficult for Cobain, who had ambivalent feelings about being famous. Courtney, on the contrary, was unapologetic about seeking it out, and went to Geffen herself to get a deal for Hole (and if I remember correctly, she wrangled a better deal than what Nirvana got). There was a brief moment in time between 1989–1991 where she was known in underground circles simply as Courtney Love, the vocalist of Hole, and not Kurt Cobain's wife—but once the two were an item, it was over.

by Anonymousreply 144November 5, 2021 6:26 AM

Yeah, R144, I have no idea what R132 was getting at. The refusal to elaborate signals to me that it’s okay to just ignore.

by Anonymousreply 145November 5, 2021 2:49 PM

[quote]musically I like stuff like Siouxsie & The Banshees / The Creatures, PJ Harvey, Tori Amos, the Breeders, Björk, The B-52s, Grace Jones, Natacha Atlas, and others

YES! You have some great taste here!

by Anonymousreply 146August 13, 2022 11:13 PM

For me it was Kurt who was the true 90s rock star gay icon.

I was in junior high when Nevermind came out. I was just realizing I was gay and the fact that the biggest rock star in the world was vocally pro gay? Even at 11 or 12 I understood how powerful that was. How unbelievably important it was. Every dumb jock was obsessed with Nirvana and he made it super uncool to be anti-gay. He didn't have to do that. But he did.

Plus, Nevermind was a near perfect album. Which it his support even cooler.

As far as Coutney, I think she's clearly pro-gay.

by Anonymousreply 147August 13, 2022 11:33 PM

Just because you do more drugs than Judy Garland and Marilyn Monroe combined does NOT make you a gay icon.

She's so fried from the heroin that she can barely string together a sentence, let alone espouse genuine support for gays.

by Anonymousreply 148August 14, 2022 12:08 AM
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