"The Nevers" and Joss Whedon

You already started a thread about this, OP. You needed a second one?

[Quote] Do you think he knew the stories were coming out, and stepped back before they hit?

Is this about the Louisiana library scandal of 1992 in which a woman was denied assistance when she wanted books on the subject of angioplasty?

No, R1, this is the only thread I've posted on this topic.

And I did a search, and while there's a thread about Whedon, there is NOT a thread about "The Nevers" and/or the behind the scenes drama in there that lead to this weird exit for the creator/writer/show-runner.

So go fuck yourself.

Anyone who is NOT a dick have any insight or info?

Only his conduct towards Carpenter can be possibly considered criminal, as far as I know. I'm looking forward to this show

It just seems weird for someone to leave "their baby", that they created, wrote, produced, directed... and then just suddenly stepped away from. I feel like we're not getting the whole story.

This series sounds like the Gemma Doyle trilogy by Libba Bray

I wonder if the switch from the Whedon episodes to the non-Whedon episodes will be 'noticeable'...

R6 you make it sound like Whedon had a choice.

R9, the entire story is presented in a way that it WAS his choice. He was exhausted and stepped away. This was all BEFORE the Buffy/JusticeLeague stories came out.

From the linked article:

[quote]Whedon attributed his departure to being unable to meet “the physical challenges of making such a huge show during a global pandemic,” in a statement of his own.

Also, there were NO reports of problems on set or inappropriate behavior on his part...

Quite the opposite in fact:

"The Nevers Star Upset Over Joss Whedon Leaving

Laura Donnelly, star of the upcoming new HBO series The Nevers, was gutted over Joss Whedon's decision to step down from the show last fall."

"It just seems weird for someone to leave "their baby", that they created, wrote, produced, directed... and then just suddenly stepped away from. I feel like we're not getting the whole story."

Well obviously we're not getting the whole story!

But if someone leaves a project they're this involved with, the first things I suspect are a personal issue such as a heath crisis, or a power struggle behind the scenes that Whedon didn't win.

Which ones did he call fat and which ones did he threaten their pregnancies with firing?

With all the stories about Whedon's behavior, I've always thought there was something odd about his "fascination" with certain types of women characters that he's constantly creating.

It's always had the same creepy vibe to me as guys who always create female videogame characters as their main toon when given the option. It just has this whiff of a nerd desperate to control the cool popular girl.

[quote]Well obviously we're not getting the whole story!

My thoughts: They obviously knew all about Warner Media's investigation into Whedon. If it got the point where they were talking to former cast members of the shows Whedon worked on decades ago then it was clearly serious business.

HBO's statement didn't make it sound like he was the only one who wanted to leave. They made it sound like it was amicable at the least. It was short and to the point. They could have just as easily wrote, "Bye, bitch!"

Their statement:

[quote]"We have parted ways with Joss Whedon. We remain excited about the future of The Nevers and look forward to its premiere in the summer of 2021"

That's it. The end.

He couldn't be associated with a series of this nature (about women) when he had a history of being an asshole towards women and people of color. The cast wants the show to be successful as does HBO since they've already put money into it. Neither will openly trash him but I doubt you'll hear them utter his name once they start promotion.

Grace Randolph heard a few things:

HBO knew Warner Media's investigation did find he had bad behavior and he was in fact [italic]still[/italic] misbehaving on the set of The Nevers.

Also as Grace Randolph said, the fact that he and Jeff Johns never countersued anyone for any of their claims about bad behavior speaks volumes. It didn't matter what Joss' ex-wife Kai Cole said, what Ray Fisher said, what Charisma Carpenter said, what any of the other cast members of the Justice League said, he had no real defense at all because he did exactly what they said he did.

Grace Randolph has limited credibility.

She reports things as "inside sources" then simply ignores it when she's wrong.

At one time, she might have had some inside sources, but she now usually just makes unfounded accusations under the guise of "her sources" without having to be accountable for making up crap at least half the time.

There was a very explicit statement by someone that there were no such complaints on the set of The Nevers.

R18 Laura Donnelly from the cast said,

[quote]“From my personal experience, it was the best screen, film or TV, experience that I’ve had on any set,” ... “From my point of view, he always felt very supportive and protective of the artistic integrity and what we as actors needed in order to be able to do our job.”

It's possible there weren't any issues, but if there were any issues no one would say it about a show that hasn't even aired yet, with a cast and crew that need the work, when he's already gone from the show. HBO would not want any more negative press around their project.

[quote]Grace Randolph has limited credibility.

I keep hearing this but really, when it comes to this, the only thing she said that other people haven't said is that she heard there were issues on the set of The Nevers.

HBO knowing about the investigation & knowing it would turn out badly for Joss is something multiple articles have speculated on. So that's not news.

Joss not doing a great job at defending himself or attempting to go after anyone who attacked him legally is pretty obvious. Anyone could observe that.

Sarah Michelle Gellar turning her back on him was damning as hell by itself.

He and Sarah were never bosom buddies though, that has been known for years. They clashed.

Id there were issues on the Nevers, the smartest thing would be to just avoid the topic, not have the lead come out and say "He was great!"

A lot of details about just how much she hated him came out from sources in print after people finally started speaking out against him a couple of years ago. She didn't state anything publicly until recently. Saying, "I don’t want to be forever associated with the name Joss Whedon" when she was supporting Charisma Carpenter.

As for the Nevers, the smartest thing would be to address it once then not again which is exactly what they did. That's PR 101 when confronting an unavoidable topic. Now, there's less reason for anyone to ask how they were treated because an answer was already given and if they are asked when they do promo for the show, (since they don't always have control over the questions being asked) they can simply refer back to the first response. Not saying anything at all looks bad and avoiding the topic isn't going to be possible when he created, wrote and directed the show.

Personally: I don't think anything happened on the set. He would have been on his best behavior as soon as he knew an investigation was taking place about him on another project but I do think he both chose to leave and was asked to leave. He'll still get paid anyway.

It’s weird that what amounts to your garden variety “Area Boss Was A Jerk Sometimes, Film At 11” story has been ginned up into a SCANDAL featuring ALLEGATIONS, like Whedon is Harvey Weinstein or something. I’m sure there’s something “problematic” about all this that some STUNNING and BRAVE victims will enlighten all of us on at some point.

It honestly doesn't look very good.

[quote] Id there were issues on the Nevers, the smartest thing would be to just avoid the topic, not have the lead come out and say "He was great!"

That would be absolutely wrong. Avoiding the topic would create the proverbial "elephant in the room" that not only overshadows the project, but gives the whole situation a sinister, creepy vibe in a #metoo era of social media. The project would suffer. Maybe to the point of being canceled just to get rid of the topic everybody has to avoid.

Addressing it and insisting that it has absolutely nothing to do with the project was the right approach. The public buying it is, of course, a different matter.

I'm really curious to see the show though. And even more curious to eventually see the second half of season one, to see if the final four episodes are noticeably different than the first six (the Whedon episodes).

More and more I’m imagining him as an over the top Bond villain chewing the scenery and over acting (reacting) on set and being awful to everyone in almost a comical way.

If he was kind of a dick on The Nevers, then odds are it will come out. Lying about it now will only just backfire. "Why the fuck did you lie?"

With the exception of Carpenter, where his conduct definitely crossed a line into WTF territory, most of it is "He was kind of a dick sometimes."

[quote] If he was kind of a dick on The Nevers, then odds are it will come out. Lying about it now will only just backfire. "Why the fuck did you lie?"

You don't badmouth a recent project of yours. You say it's the best thing you have ever worked on and, when it's time to promote your next project, you distance yourself from the previous project and declare the current project is the best you've ever worked on.

Really, some posters seem to have no clue how PR works.

I'm available to finish the series!

R29 that's not necessary, Marti.

I hated season 7

Any hot guys and potential for male nudity in this series?

R32, the premiere had a naked guy (full back, no frontal), and some insinuation of bisexuality, as he was in bed, in the middle, between a naked woman, and a naked man. And he in particular seems to host orgies.

Norton seems to play a philandering deviant who falls for a one of the show's "mutants" (they are called differently in this show) which are, of course, mostly female. Overall I like the show. There is a crazy good scene of the main bad, a bat-shit crazy woman having her big entrance on a theater stage.

[quote]Grace Randolph has limited credibility.

Grace Randolph is desperate for Zach Snyder to fuck her. Of course her "sources" have heard bad things about Joss Whedon.

It's not very "Joss Whedony", in a good way.

It's more R-Rated than I expected.

I thought it was a very good introduction into the world, defining all the characters and the basic plot outlines.

I'm in.

The suits knew what was coming. Insiders have known for years that Whedon runs unhappy-to-toxic sets and the Justice League/Ray Fisher stuff has been percolating for some time. Imagine if Joss had been gearing up to do publicity for this show and then the Charisma stuff had hit? HBO would probably have had to shelve it entirely. This was a salvage job and, sadly, I'm sure they made it worth Joss's while to go away quietly. He'll have the rest of his life to privately enjoy his money.

There was a nude scene with that Norton actor, no dick though.

In the third episode there's frontal nudity by an extra.

SPOILER

So, Frank (Ben Chaplin) is gay? "I was bloody drunk! / only the first time you were drunk!")

The 3rd episode is quite tragic. Didn't think they would get rid of that particular character.

Foir all that people like to shit on Snyder, he's very well liked by all the actors he works with and considered one of the rare nice guys in the business. The same cannot be said for Whedon.

I've watched the first two episodes and quite to my surprise I really like the show. I was expecting to hate it as just another steampunk-y alternate history thing but the show is well-made, the story is intriguing and the characters feel alive. The show is way more adult than anything I've seen from Whedon. It's weird how for a person who likes to bully his crew he always has such strong female leads in his shows.

[quote] Anyone who is NOT a dick have any insight or info?

Are you lost, dearheart?

This series literally gave me a migraine.

It belongs on WOR or PIX, not on HBO.

[quote]With all the stories about Whedon's behavior, I've always thought there was something odd about his "fascination" with certain types of women characters that he's constantly creating. It's always had the same creepy vibe to me as guys who always create female videogame characters as their main toon when given the option. It just has this whiff of a nerd desperate to control the cool popular girl.

I am telling you

THERE IS A TRANS INSIDE HIM WAITING TO BURST OUT

The big problem wasn't that Joss is a dick. The problem was that he'd build his rep and career on being a male feminist who supports strong women. When the stories came out about him treating his actresses like shit unless they were fucking him, it completely destroyed his brand. HBO needs people to watch the series, and people won't watch it if they hate its producer. It is, as others have said above, a question of likeability, NOT legality.

I'm really enjoying the show so far.

Mmm, the doctor is hot with a nice ass.

I thought the show looked like "Penny Dreadful" with a bigger production budget; it wasn't necessarily bad, but the whole thing seemed borrowed from other stories (Penny Dreadful, X-men, a little Harry Potter thrown in, etc.)

It’s “Harry Potter” with boobs and a corset.

I caught 15 minutes of the last episode while waiting for Mare of Easttown and it looked cheesy as fuck. Did not make me interested in watching it from the start. Whedon's talent always was overblown.

The big reveal at the end of the last episode really surprised me. I really did not expect that.

It is a bit bubblegummy for my taste. But I understand they're trying to pull in women viewers and a darker, more serious tone would prevent that.

It’s also a shame that we don’t have any twink eye candy, but that’s life, I guess.

The doctor is hot and we see his nice ass right away in the last episode.

R47 most people outside Twitter don't care, they just want to see a good show.

[quote] I thought the show looked like "Penny Dreadful" with a bigger production budget;

The only things this show has in common with Penny Dreadful are the time period and the fantasy elements. Penny Dreadful was superior in pretty much every way. I've only seen 3 episodes so far of The Nevers and I actually really enjoyed the first two episodes. However the third one was a chore to get through and so far I haven't wanted to return there.

Absolutely, Penny Dreadful was indeed superior, R57.

Joss Whedon has been repeating himself since the late 90s. He has no new ideas and he's a shitty person on top of it. He's had all the career chances he's deserved and then some.

I couldn't get past two episodes of Penny Dreadful. Dreadfully dull.

The Nevers is quite fun, and the reveal in the latest episode was shocking... but if you go back and re-watch it was right there in front of you all along. Really an amazing thing to pull off.

Will we get a gay sex scene?

Looking at Rotten Tomatoes, the audience actually loves the show.

[quote]The only things this show has in common with Penny Dreadful are the time period and the fantasy elements.

By that I meant, the lead character/actress (can't remember her name) is very Eva Green-like; strong woman, tragic background, tortured soul, all that, while the James Norton character is very Dorian Gray. Ominous, magical baddies, etc.

Although 'The Nevers' is scheduled on HBO for 8pm central, that isn't what they're showing right now - it's some science fiction thing I cannot identify.

Now, whatever it is, it has shifted to something else - some sort of posh British society thing, prefaced by the title, "Chapter Two: Molly."

[quote]I thought the show looked like "Penny Dreadful" with a bigger production budget; it wasn't necessarily bad, but the whole thing seemed borrowed from other stories (Penny Dreadful, X-men, a little Harry Potter thrown in, etc.)

Penny Dreadful was far superior, there were better performers, better scripts.

Eva Green, Rory Kinnear, Simon Russell Beale and Helen McCrory were excellent in Penny Dreadful. Josh Harnett was nice eye candy. These performers made you care about their characters, I don’t care about anyone in The Nevers.

The entire Sci-Fi aspect of The Nevers doesn’t interest me at all. What a snooze fest. With this series, it seems HBO is looking for a much younger audience.

Joss Whedon is extremely overrated.

He's literally raping the audience while we watch!

I've not seen the show yet but I've been keeping an eye on opinions about it, and it has been pretty mixed - some positive aspects, but it's not been hailed as a huge success.

Given that, and the taint of Whedon on it, I don't hold very much hope of it being renewed for another season - with all the amazing TV available these days (I am never up to date with all the stuff I want to see, there's just not enough time) I don't know if I can be bothered investing in something that's pretty much doomed.

Francis Coppola said it in an interview many years ago ; " being a director is the last form of dictatorship available to men " ( something like that). I agree and I think that it is not so acceptable anymore. The directors who are like dictators probably were attracted to the fact that you could have such control over people and get rewarded for it. Today that is a thing of the past and obviously that sort of behaviour is being exposed and the abusers are being punished for their past actions and either changing or getting out of the game.

I really didn’t like episode 6. Confusing mess. I had to go read a recap to get a better understanding. Especially for chapter 1. My favorite was chapter 3.

I don’t blame r64 r65 for thinking it was a different show. Especially chapter 1. But honestly you should have known it was Amalia (Molly) in chapter 2.

To be fair, they’ve been referring to Amalia’s mission for like 3 episodes, and ep6 literally opens with a military unit...so that makes sense. Plus, viewers should have expected some sort of non-Victorian explanation for the giant “ship” crash landing in the first episode. And Maladie’s origin is also pretty neatly wrapped up. Donnelly’s accents really impressed me as well. It’s a disjointed episode, but it all made sense once you get past “aliens!”, which we were already primed for.

That said, I’ll keep watching, but I have no strong desire to see anything else. I just don’t care about these characters anymore, or perhaps there are just too many. They won’t show any real gay sex; there are no cis-twinks to ogle over. I mean, it’s just blegh. Maybe I’ll stay to see Penance finally make a pass at Amalia, because she clearly wants it.

From all the chapters "True", the storyline which I looked most forward to, underwhelmed me. Still, a great show.

R70, when I flipped channels, I had missed the first three to four minutes of the episode, to the point where it was smack in the middle of the future stuff. I sat with it for perhaps ten minutes, and then gave up watching it to get on the computer to find out WTF was going on. It was still playing in the living room where I could hear it. I passed through the room just in time to see the title 'Chapter Two: Molly' on the screen. No doubt if I'd sat back down with it and watched it, I would have recognized it. But the sound of it, the narrative and characters, was still unfamiliar. I didn't catch on that it really was an episode of 'The Nevers' until close to the end, when I heard somebody mention "the touched."

So I rewatched it from the first, and then it made sense.

Now I'm given to understand that the series is going on a brief hiatus, or something?

[quote]Now I'm given to understand that the series is going on a brief hiatus, or something?

Not so brief. It won't be back until some time in 2022.

That 𝑖𝑠 a long time, R74. By that point, I won't remember any of the episodes thus far; it will all be water under the bridge.

Do you know 𝑤ℎ𝑦 they're suspending the series?

[quote]Do you know 𝑤ℎ𝑦 they're suspending the series?

I listened to a podcast with the series lead Laura Donnelly today and she explained that they're were delayed because one producer's exit, the Joss Whedon, then delayed because of Covid hence only being able to complete 6 episodes. They are due to return to set this month to finish the additional episodes.

I would imagine once Joss got fired he took his toys and left which means the writers have to scramble to fill in the blanks of whatever Joss mapped out for the show for season one or further.

R77 thank you for sharing you have no idea how the business works

So, apparently none of you watched "Dollhouse"... this episode was VERY reminicent of what Whedon did on that series... with the finale of season 1, "Epitaph 1", and the series finale "Epitaph 2". A jump to the future showing the eventually way things turn out.

This episode was time jumping (much like the main character)... Chapter 1 being the future, Chapters 2 and 3 being the past, and Chapter 4 being the current, tying it all together. It was pretty brilliant, actually. I loved it, but it did take effort. I had no clue what was going on at first in Chapter one either. But slowly it all tied together.

It makes me want to go back and rewatch all six episodes so I can incorporate everything I learned in THIS episode, as it re-casts almost everything we thought we knew.

[quote] [R77] thank you for sharing you have no idea how the business works

I'll guess we have to wait and see then.

I guess most people don't like to have to do any 'work' while watching a show, and can't stand not knowing what's going on at all times... I mean, seriously, you turned it off in the first five minutes? You couldn't wait to see how it all came together? How impatient and lazy are you?

r81 you seem a bit defensive. Did you work on the show?

[quote]I guess most people don't like to have to do any 'work' while watching a show, and can't stand not knowing what's going on at all times...

The problem is that there is so much content out there on so many different platforms, why waste your time on something that's a snooze? Shows like the The Wire took a while to get interesting, so while it's unfortunate that people have limited attention spans/patience, that's just the way it is. Plus, it's fantasy - it's one thing if its some big complex tale like GoT, but this is a variation on X-Men + Costume Drama

I’m loving the show. I loved the sci-fi twist at the beginning of episode 6. And I love Claudia Black.

I wonder if during all this time since Molly killed herself and got possessed by soldier from the future and throughout all the events so far, her sickly mother-in-law is still somehow alive and kicking, waiting in bed for someone to serve her soup...

The doctor said it outright - she will outlive and bury them all... Maybe come the series finale, she'll be one of the only characters still alive.

Oh! Amalia/Zephyr wouldn’t have known about the sick mother in law. I wonder if she just starved to death. 😳

R83, the show is NOT a snooze. It's smart and interesting. I'm loving it.

And after last week's twist ending, the twist beginning was awesome.

I can't wait for the next half of this season. I sure hope it gets a second season.