Civil Union is not marriage. Is this good news or just Pope pandering?

Mein Pontifex Maximus:

I can assure you a part of the church considers Francisco too liberal and they didn't like this at all.

You can discuss about semantics but in the end he is saying a catholic must respect gay families and this goes way beyond what any other Pope said before

Judge Amy Coney Barrett is not pleased.

I think this actually is a reaction to OfJesse Covid Island. He’s indirectly responded to things Dump has done in the past.

Doesn’t the distinction between religious marriage and legal marriage solve this issue? Gays don’t want religious marriage just legal marriage, I haven’t seen one gay wedding in a church, why would they care it’s literally none of their business and doesn’t even fall within their scope. How is this even a conversation that they feel they can be a part of?

Baby steps. A Pope who has told the world that he is no one to judge gay people and who is now advocating for same-sex unions is nothing short of monumental.

R5, this is a gay website created by gay people for gay people to talk about gay stuff. If you’re not a homosexual, which you’re clearly not as you refer to gays as “they” instead of “we” or “our”, you don’t belong here and you’re not welcome.

Never enough is a good approach. But for 100000s members LGBT community in Catholic countries around the world this is a giant leap towards equality.

If he became an advocate for Gay marriage he'd have to turn in his red shoes. But by saying Gays deserve to be in families and he supports civil unions he has really overturned the applecart in a manner of speaking. Because this is major for the Pope of all people. Anyone who has taken the time or has the interest in reading about the internal war going on inside the Church within the Curia itself will appreciate what Francis went through to pubicly speak out like this. Reforms within the institution come slow and hard, if at all. He truly is "among the wolves" as one Vatican watcher characterized him in their book about Church politics.

R7 mmmm by ‘they’ I meant the Catholic Church. Chill out yeesh.

R7, I read "they" as referring to the Catholics.

Francis is "rendering unto Caesar..." he is saying that he recognizes civil laws. He can't go further than that right now. If he did, he'd get served some of the special "tea" that killed one of his predecessors.

R8 I mentioned this yday on a different thread but I don’t see equality or fairness as being modifiable quantities. Equality isn’t a percentage, you’re either equal or you’re unequal. This proposal still does not acknowledge equality to lgbt+ people therefore it’s unacceptable. It’s unfair. Also who asked him. What legal contracts we enter into are none of his business.

R13, all or nothing and immediately. Yeah, sure..

In America and most of the world, civil unions are called "marriage"

R15, no they are not.

R14 I’m not expecting the pope to endorse gay marriage but I would like him (And the church) to realize it’s not for him to endorse, or not to endorse. Gay people are entering legal civil marriage contracts which has nothing to do with the RCC. The fact that he thinks he’s in a position to even make a statement such as the one he made shows how onerous he is. The total entitlement to think his opinion is of any consequence in this issue shows how little they care for gay people, they think they can control us.

R17, its a free world, everyone can express views and opinions. His opinion just happens to be listened to by billions of followers.

Catholic clergy will not be permitted to perform "civil unions" but it's odd that through the clergy performing Catholic weddings, federal and state benefits are automatically extended to the couple.

R18 it’s none of his business. And its nothing to do with it being a free world and you know it. He’s not saying that as a private citizen he’s saying it as the head of the RCC, his making a declaration indicates that they believe they still control us, and it’s negative. Words have consequences - this will continue a legacy of mistreatment of gay people from members of the Catholic Church.

If you're not a practicing Catholic, R17, the Pope's statement is irrelevant to you. It's meant only as a balm to gay Catholics and Catholics who love them, it has absolutely no real-world implications for you. Don't give it another thought.

R20, they dont control US, they do control THIER followers.

R21 I was raised into a catholic society and family - several family members are still catholic so while it doesn’t affect me directly it does come close!

Keep in mind that some who aren't Catholics might fall in love with a practicing Catholic .... ? If so, having this support for a civil union might matter.

R5, I've been to gay weddings in churches and synagogues as well as secular locations, so it's not like gays in general aren't interested in a religious marriage ceremony. To each his/her own.

There should be no laws that proscribe who can get married where. And while it is interesting that Francis has come out in favor of civil unions, that is still a separate but equal situation and that is not true equality. It's a way to render gay relationships as "lesser than" in the eyes of society.

R23, then you should be less lopsided about things and understand why this matters to others. Not everyone wants to tear down the system and burn down the churches. For some it DOES matter what he thinks and what he does. So every little helps.

R25 interesting I’ve yet to encounter a gay religious ceremony on my life radar. It seems insane to me. Similar to a ‘gays for Trump’ situation. Or a Stockholm syndrome instance. I’m trying not to be judgmental but that’s a tough one!

This means NOTHING in Western Europe , the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. But it's HUGE in eastern Europe, where Poland is enacting LGBT free zones, and the current government of Hungary is openly hostile to gay rights. These are both big majority Catholic countries. The biggest impacts thought will be in Africa, where there are a number of countries with large percentages of Catholics that have very draconian anti-gay laws, and in some South American countries that still have punitive measures for gay people. To me, the important lines from Francis are not about civil unions, but this:

"Homosexual people have a right to be in a family. They are children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or be made miserable over it"

Basically, that's the HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH telling these Catholic countries, STOP with the anti-gay rhetoric and behavior. I don't say that it's going to stop these behaviors immediately, but if it even begins to soften them, that will be huge for the gay people living in those places.

Even on DL, we should know better than to assume that the words of a Pope are meant for the people of the US, or that the circumstances that pertain to gay people in the US are identical to the circumstances that pertain to gay people in other parts of the world.

R16, yes they are. When you go to the government building to get your civil union, it's called "the marriage bureau."

Yes, even straight couples are really in civil unions in the view of the govt

[quote] Catholic clergy will not be permitted to perform "civil unions" but it's odd that through the clergy performing Catholic weddings, federal and state benefits are automatically extended to the couple.

That's because the state recognizes priests and ministers as people who can perform civil marriages as well as religious marriages.

The couple still has to sign the government papers, but the priest and witnesses administers them

R29 in most European countries there is a distinction between a civil union and a marriage. Sorry. They might happen in the same departmental building but they’re separate.

R31, only in countries that still provide civil unions to gays (as opposed to full marriage) have that distinction.

Those that provide marriage to both straights and gays have one department. Because it is conferred by the state, it is still a civil union, but called marriage.

There is no government role in religious marriage

Article about civil unions in Europe.

Government-recognized marriages are called "Civil marriages."

R32 no again incorrect. France par example has both civil partnership and marriage available to both straight and gay couples.

I look to priests for guidance. They are great role models even for non-Christians.

R28 The lone country in South America that continues to criminalize gay people is Guyana, a former British colony. The rest of the countries (also former British colonies) in the Western Hemisphere that still criminalize same-sex activity are typically treated as part of North America: Jamaica, Dominica, Barbados, etc.

Pope Francis' slowly growing awakening of humanity has brought him up to 2008, and will earn him another round of fascist cardinals (Hi, Miss Raymond Burke) calling him the Antichrist.

Meanwhile, Ratzinger still lives.

Pah.

This is important because of what's currently going on in places like Poland. Government there has turned right-wing and is trying to take away basic LGBT freedoms...all with the support of the Catholic Church there. Pope Francis is sending a message that those Bishops and pastors there need to knock it off and learn to respect ALL people as Jesus taught.

In Catholic grade school we had an ex priest, Mr. Myers, who was our art teacher. He was gorgeous and had a partner, Terry, who helped him coach our 7th grade baseball team. Parents didn't like it and he was canned by the Archdiocese (this was 1974). We all knew why. My mother knew his mother and she said Mrs. Myers was 'suffering because of him' and she started to go to Mass at another parish. It's 46 years later and the antiquated Archdiocese still fires teachers who have come out. Mr. Myers ended up teaching at a private girls school (non Catholic) and the last I heard he had married someone and they adopted a child. I called my now 87 year old mother and told her what the pope said and her response was typical - now they'll let women be priests. After all the priest scandals, this ray of hope from Pope Francis is monumental, as someone posted above.

Doctrine hasn’t changed and will never change..he’s perhaps trying to push for schism.

[quote]Gays don’t want religious marriage just legal marriage, I haven’t seen one gay wedding in a church

[quote]interesting I’ve yet to encounter a gay religious ceremony on my life radar. It seems insane to me. Similar to a ‘gays for Trump’ situation. Or a Stockholm syndrome instance. I’m trying not to be judgmental but that’s a tough one!

Umm... HELLO!!

R41 lol ew of course they did! Could you imagine. Takes a lot of mental gymnastics to go through that.

Question; in the US if you get married, the service at the church doesn’t count legally does it? Like, you still have to do a civil ceremony separately?

R12 said what I wanted to say, except for the intrigue. Pope is drawing a line between secular life and religious life and regards marriage as solely a religious institution. This is not news for him. He has said as much for a long time.

[quote] Question; in the US if you get married, the service at the church doesn’t count legally does it? Like, you still have to do a civil ceremony separately?

Yes, the church ceremony counts legally. You do not need to replicate the ceremony anywhere else. By law, priests, ministers, and religious leaders are authorized to conduct marriages and sign the marriage certificate.

Could be his way of easing the church into accepting same sex marriage eventually. Most people, religious people especially, can only take change in smaller increments.

R12 wasn't the tea drinker in favor of contraception?

Did he do this to show his discontent with Culty Amy and the crazy opus dei and evangelicals in the US?

Baby steps. Aka Popandering.

I have long said the church marriage service should have no legal function at all. All official marriages should be required to be performed by an officer of the government. If people want to follow that up with some religious service, fine, but that service should be nothing more than symbolic. Getting the power to marry people has become such a scam in this country anyone can get a licence very easily. It's a joke.

As a Catholic, I was taught Marriage was a sacrament. The Priest doesn't actually "marry" people, he blesses their union, and they marry each other. So in the old tradition the man and the woman perform the sacrament of matrimony, not a priest. Thus, IMO there is nothing to stop a priest from "blessing" a Gay couple. Yes. So if you go to the courthouse and get married, then you have a ceremony where a priest blesses your relationship, if it's done that way WTF can the Church do about it? Nothing. It's all according to their fucking rules.

I agree with R49.

[49] That's not correct, as [R50] notes. Technically, a minister or judge (or anyone else) does NOT marry a couple; they witness the exchange of vows. The couple marries each other.

If the Pope was really in favor, he'd say priests could perform ceremonies; he's just saying he bows to civil laws.

R53 exactly - he may as well have said people shouldn’t litter in National parks.

"The literal Pope saying that same-sex unions are fine in a world that continues to utilize religion to persecute gay people IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Francis MUST turn St. Peter's into the new filming location for RuPaul's Drag Race. Anything short of that is PANDERING!"

Funny, R55, but we should not forget how the church (es) acted before they had their wings clipped by the French Revolution, Napoleon and the U.S. Constitution. They'd still be torturing radicals, gays and Jews if they hadn't been curtailed.

They still say, on the Catholic Encyclopedia, that Giordano Bruno, who said the universe is made up of atoms and that there are many universes, was mentally ill. So of course they had to burn him alive. Naturally.

R56 If you go back far enough, everything becomes problematic. That's the nature of things.

R57, smell you!

Has he said yet that biological women can be men and vice versa? No? Not good enough!

The Pope should also wave the rule that a Cardinal has to be male and ordained. All they do is advise the Pope and, for those who have not reached the age of 80) vote for his successor.

In France and much of Europe the only marriage that matters is a civil ceremony performed by an official duly licensed to do so by the state. In short a state marriage takes precedence over religious. Catholics, Jews.... whatever are perfectly free to have a religious ceremony in a house of worship (complete with orange blossoms, wedding marches, gowns, tuxedos, etc...), but by then they have already been married by the state.

Prince Rainer and Grace Kelly had their civil ceremony before church, just like everyone else..... In short the state controls marriage, which is why many European countries on balance had a much easier time legalization same sex marriage than USA.

Ironically France created "Pacte Civil de Solidarité" to mainly give gays/lesbians civil unions that bestowed most of benefits of marriage, but the law has been and remains vastly popular with straight couples.

Getting back to Pope Francis and his latest announcement, His Holiness (a man who has lived longer than most expected, and is on borrowed time if you will), clearly is laying down a path for his successor to follow.

Having sacked, neutralized or otherwise dealt with more conservative cardinals, Francis has also been stacking the body of cardinals who will choose the next pope. Clearly hope are it will be someone who will continue along this path of openness, inclusion and equality Pope Francis has begun within the church.

There major problems however....

Europe is largely lost to the Holy Church, at least in much of the west. Poland and some eastern European nations are a different matter. Yes, you have pockets of conservative Catholics in France, Germany, and Spain, but not nearly enough.

Growth in RC church over past few decades has come from Asia, Africa and a few other places that have vastly different ideas about homosexuality than Pope Francis. Indeed after decades of being recipient of priests sent from Europe, Africa now sends large numbers of them to Europe in order to deal with shortages.

In Latin America, long a strong hold for RC church there is another worry; rise of evangelical Christians. As RC church is seen as more liberal conservatives and others wanting something more structured are turning to evangelicalism; and the RC knows this well.

That's interesting, R61. I know that the Church has had to expand outside Europe for many years. I'm far from thinking Francis is a bad guy. Must be hell to be Pope. Is he ill or something as you said he's on borrowed time? Or do you mean the right wing will poison him?

R62

PF only has one or one and one-half a lung due to an illness (when he was a young man IIRC), and has had other issues since. His Holiness is moving up in his 80's thus statistically how many days are ahead of him likely are limited.

As for rest of things, in a few decades Islam not Christianity will be the dominate religion on this plane, and believe you me that's got more than a few people worried.

Catholic church is still reeling from effects brought on by changes unleashed by Vatican II. How much longer things can be held together as yet another scheme for openness and so forth is launched is anyone's guess.

[quote] [SPAIN] According to the Spanish Center for Sociological Research, 68.3% of Spanish citizens self-identify as Catholics, (46.8% define themselves as not practising, while 21.5% as practising), 2.6% as followers of other faiths (including Islam, Protestant Christianity, Buddhism etc.), and 27.9% identify as Atheists (12.5%), agnostics (7.3%) or non-believers (8.1%) as of October 2019.[1] Most Spaniards do not participate regularly in religious worship. This same study shows that of the Spaniards who identify themselves as religious, 31.9% never attend mass, 30% barely ever attend mass, 16% attend mass a few times a year, 7.1% two or three times per month, 11.5% every Sunday and holidays, and 2% multiple times per week.

22% of Spanish marriages are church marriages.

[quote] [IRELAND] In the 2016 census, 78.3% (3.5 million) of the population identified as Catholic which is 209,220 fewer than 6 years earlier in 2010 when the percentage stood at 88%. The next largest group after Catholic was "no religion". 10% of the population had no religion according to the census.. This was a 73.6% increase from 2011.

59% of marriages in Ireland are church marriages.

In Italy in 2018 the number of civil wedding ceremonies exceeded church weddings for the first time.

U.S. church weddings: in 2009 they were 41%; in 2016 they were 26%

It seems the pope has acknowledged that the church has lost or is fast losing the church marriage battle to the larger society in many places where it once had a strong hold. He's acknowledged civil unions as a part of life and said that's the obvious route for gays and lesbians. It's not a bad thing by any means unless you're an absolutist who has to have all or nothing.

In some places where Catholicism was once inescapable, the only contact many people have with a church is that it's a beautiful setting for a wedding (and then a big blowout party somewhere else.) It's what people do when they want a fancy wedding, not necessarily a devout wedding.

Condoning living in sin, which is what the Catholic Church considers it, is a big deal.

OP, why would I care what the Catholic Church thinks? It’s a pedophile organization.

R64

Don't know about elsewhere, but parishes around here will not perform a marriage (church wedding) for couples if one or both are not If one or both parties to be married are not regular parishioners of the church. For those who cannot satisfy this requirement , a letter of permission from his/her pastor to be married outside of their home parish must be provided.

If last time bride or groom had anything to do with sacraments was when they were confirmed, then they are often told to look elsewhere. Many priests, archdioceses or whatever are taking a hard line at "cafeteria Catholics" who only show up when they want something from the church; usually but not restricted to marriage, baptism, and funeral.

Those whose parents are regular and active members of their parish may provide an out however...

As for rest of it RC church lost the "marriage battle" when Henry VIII broke with Rome, made himself head of C of E and divorced Catherine of Aragon; it's been a slow but steady trend downward ever since.

Next salvos came from French Revolution when France had the state take over role of marrying people (civil marriages), something that spread throughout Europe.

That "most Catholic" Spain had gay marriage pushed through via government with little push back was bad enough for Rome. But when a surprising (and totally unexpected) show of force from large numbers of (conservative?) Catholics in France came out against same sex marriage, that was an eye opener. Despite that side show the bill passed and became law, again much to dismay of Rome.

Things are slightly better for Rome on matters of same sex marriage and a few other issues in eastern European nations like Poland.

RC in western Europe has a huge worry in the rise of Islam. All those Muslim migrants flooding into southern Europe and spreading all over aren't giving up their religious practices. Their women are often young and far more fecund than native western European females of same cohorts, worse still Islam does a far better job of keeping those born into faith remaining their entire lives.

R65

In heated debate and run up to governor Cuomo's push to legalize same sex marriage in New York a fellow parishioner questioned their local priest as to why Andrew Cuomo was allowed to receive sacraments despite his "living in sin". Priest told the guy to mind is own business, and that was that.....

R65

As with many other things Catholic church has ways of twisting things around to suit purposes.

Living in sin only applies in one situation where a couple is sexually active. So if two people aren't having sex, but living together church doesn't have an automatic problem with that.

Same with homosexuality, it is the act that is a sin; not the person per se. You can be the biggest flaming queen that ever flamed; but long as you don't act upon those desires...

In other words bit of hate the sin, but not the sinner.

Trans OTOH don't get much of a pass from RC church. Wearing garments of the opposite sex, make-up and certainly self-mutilation (sex change procedures) are just big no and NO.

This is how historically hospitals affiliated with RC church in USA got out of doing sex change operations or any part of gender reassignment. This may be coming to an end as at least one legal case in California (surprise, surprise) found against a RC hospital because it discriminated against a trans in refusing to allow the operation

Civil union isn't marriage. Works for everyone.

No one gives a fuck what those ancient old Italian closet pedos in dresses think OP. Stop posting this shit here. They are totally irrelevant.

What R2 said. For the vast majority of rest of humanity in the secular West, marriage equality is accepted, so "civil unions" is meaningless.

For the Roman Catholic Church, this is a seismic shift. Yes, he's long advocated civil unions. And he is accepting -- or as accepting as we can get for now.

Just look at the backlash against him from within the Church over this. That closeted cardinal whom Francis sidelined -- Burke -- says it's incumbent upon "faithful Catholics" to oppose the pope on this.

I cannot imagine this ever occurring under the Polish pope or the German one -- a cardinal calling for opposition to the pope?

The German must be livid, if he's still lucid!

These people literally believe wine turns into blood and a wafer magically turns into flesh. Then they feast on it. They’re nuts.

Quiet honestly RC did things to themselves; a litany of endless scandals has drained much of their credibility.

Boys of Saint Vincent and Magdalene sisters are but two dramas of real life events; but sadly things were (and are) far more than those two isolated events.

Wholesale abuse of children young men and women through ages is bad enough; but other unappealing parts of RC history just pile on. Actions during WWII/Nazi Germany and so on..

That's one thing your Church can do: put on a good show Rex Mottram tells Julia Flyte in Brideshead Revisited. Mr. Mottram is dismayed when Julia (correctly) informs him that "mixed marriages are usually very quiet without much fuss", to which RM replies "mixed? I'm not a nigger or anything". Julia goes on about mixed being a marriage between a Catholic and someone who is not. Undeterred Rex who isn't particularly religious but does want all the pomp and glory of a Catholic society wedding (presumably at high altar), says fine, I'll convert.....

Besides high C of E (who despite Henry VIII's quibbles with Rome kept quite a lot of the "old religion") no one else besides Catholics do big theatrical church events so well. Weddings, funerals, etc......

That is what people (especially girls/women) seem to want; orange blossoms, white gown, bridesmaids, glorious old church, booming organ, in short everything Maria had in Sound of Music including being married at high altar in a high Latin Mass.

Again Catholics want this even if their attachment to the Church is tenuous to almost non existent. They see it as some sort of birth right even though they themselves haven't been near a church since confirmation absent the odd wedding, funeral or baptism that required their presence.

It's all about social validation.... As France and many other European countries make clear no one needs a religious ceremony to be legally married. The state will take care of that for far less money and bother.

Then again this may cut across all religious lines, well at least extending to C of E and some other Episcopalians who still have marriage ceremonies full of pomp and glory. Meghan Markle was an older divorced woman with one husband living, but yet you'd think she was Fraulein Maria by insisting on having a major church wedding complete with white gown and veil. I mean you'd think she was some young woman fresh from a convent rather than some old slag who had been rolled around more than a few times.

Let the backsliding begin......

quote from NYT:

ROME — The Vatican has confirmed the pope’s remarks on gay couples deserving civil protections as it sent an explanatory note to bishops underlining that Francis’s comments did not mark a change in church doctrine.

The pope’s remarks made headlines last month after they appeared in the documentary “Francesco,” at its Oct. 21 premiere at the Rome Film Festival. In the documentary, he reiterated his view that gay people are “children of God,” and said: “What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered.”

Last week, acknowledging the “various reactions and interpretations” provoked by the pope’s apparent break from his predecessors, the Vatican Secretary of State sent an explanatory note to its nuncios, or ambassadors, to be shared with bishops, “with the desire to favor an appropriate understanding of the words of the Holy Father.”

/quote

[quote]I don't think civil union is very useful

Why do you care?