Do you like Native American stuff?

This should go well.

I loathe it

[quote]This should go well.

Oh, really, why? It's yet another dodgy subject the Americans freak out about? Am I going to be called a "troll" or a Russian?

OP, Americans are obsessed with cultural appropriation right now. You are walking on land mines. That said, I am in love with the Western US and the tribes that live there. I have a few silver bracelets made by Hopis. I think that’s fine as long as they’re not paired with a feathered headdress.

Do you like... errrrrr... stuff?

I like Navajo blankets and rugs

Yes. I like Native American culture. I was very upset when Elizabeth Warren dropped out of the race.

"Give her a feather, she's a Cherokee!"

I love Acoma Pueblo pottery and have some small pieces from individual artists I admire. They appreciate in value, too, although not enormously.

If you buy it from a Native American artist who is willingly selling it, how is it appropriation?

I like the shoes in OP's picture. Are they made by native Americans?

I love totem poles from the Northern U.S. tribes . Hopi Kachinas are pretty cool, too.

I like Hopi overlay as well.

OP, since you’re British, there are a lot of cheap Chinese low quality replicas of Native American jewelry and other. Items. If you get the real stuff, it’s all handmade and these days quite expensive. And as far as certain artifacts are concerned, especially religious or spiritual items, Native American prefer to keep these items in their own hands or to have them treated respectfully, because they have a lot of meaning to them.

That said, there’s a considerable market in the U.S. of authentic Indian silver jewelry and other items. Modern jewelry makers of today still make it, sometimes modern styles or with more modern materials.

A lot of the old turquoise mines are played out. Anyone who knows about turquoise jewelry can tell you the exact mine a certain type of stone came from and what year that mine played out. Some of the Native jewelers have saved turquoise from closed mines and kept some for themselves. But mostly if you want that jewelry, you have to buy antiques. Some people buy from pawn shops, there are some online Native jewelry stores that carry old jewelry and stuff from young designers. The new well known designers are getting paid fair prices. In the old days they weren’t.

There are Native American art galleries in the Southwest that sell this stuff and it’s expensive. It’s a lot cheaper to buy used.

Yes. The craftsmanship is amazing and I love what a unique look it has. Personally I’m most into the jewelry, but my grandmother has a large collection of pottery. She also has a pair of tall moccasins. They were beaded all by hand and are exquisite. I have a true appreciation for these items and I feel happy I’m able to support individual artists.

Thank you for the info. I like it.

Both pottery and rugs can be museum pottery and in some cases, the prices can appreciate a lot. But you have to be careful because the prices go up and down according to the economy. I have a couple of pieces myself I bought from an elderly lady who bought most of it in the seventies. I bought it about ten years ago and I couldn’t get it for that price today.

Maria Martinez black-on-black pottery

OP, you might appreciate a drive through New Mexico and Arizona on Highway 40 during your next USA visit. Many Indian owned shops...if you like that sort of thing.

There’s a lot of websites that sell Native American products, Silvertribe and Alltribe are two. It’s worth it to look at the different styles and different tribes’ jewelry so you can see the differences. Also look at the maker’s marks so you can recognize the big names.

Begay is the name of a Native family that has made jewelry for generations. There are specific names that anyone would recognize.

Charles Loloma was a member of the Hopi and his jewelry is some of the most famous.

More Loloma

All this jewellery and stuff is all so fancy pantsy -

I want CHEAP and charming.

This is the teepee thing I was referring to.

LMAO

That is not Native American. That is simply kitsch. Which, if you like it, fine, lots of people do.

Oftentimes Loloma would make the inside of a piece even more beautiful than the outside.

2 blankets -$12.00 !

In the early 70s in Berkeley, Indian bead belts were very popular. I had half a dozen.

If you don’t know the difference, Native American jewelry is one style, Native American is different and Southwestern is another style. Mexican vintage jewelry is a whole thing in itself, a lot of it is indigenous tribe based, sometimes with Mayan designs, and some is copper and more affordable.

A lot of Mexican silver isn’t sterling, it’s a slightly lower grade. Mexican jewelry is sometimes called Taxco jewelry, from a town in Mexico where it’s been made for a long time. It’s a different style from Native American. A lot of the vintage pieces are more Art Deco and have a lot of silver balls or geometric designs. They sometimes use abalone or black or green stones.

If you want to buy any of these styles, research first, there’s a lot to it.

This is a typical Mexican, not American, design.

The stuff at R22 is probably made in China. Look at the box. China does a lot of knockoffs.

I find their art, simplistic, repetitive, childish, lacking depth and perspective. Not a fan.

That Loloma jewelry is really beautiful--I'd love to have it.

OP, I know what you mean, I also like these pictures, which I guess are kitsch.

[quote]That is not Native American. That is simply kitsch. Which, if you like it, fine, lots of people do.

A teepee is not Native American?

The best of the bricks is Pinon. I went into a shop in London and they were burning it in a teepee - I was transported to the Mojave desert.

I like the Tlingit art of the Pacific Northwest.

Then there’s Fred Harvey jewelry, which is vintage tourist jewelry in the Native style. It was inexpensive souvenirs for children or adults. Fred Harvey was a series of restaurants out in the West. Judy Garland did a movie about “The Harvey Girls,” which is about the girls that worked there.

It was mass produced and really cheap in those days, although it’s real sterling and turquoise. My mom had this exact piece.

There’s a lot of information at this site about Fred Harvey.

J'adore OP.

I love native American pottery. I have collected a few pieces and while I am not knowledgeable about what I purchased I enjoy their beauty. They are amazing artisans.

I'm just WILD about WAMPUM!

Mexican primitive pottery is great too. I first heard about it when I was a guest at a woman’s house and she had painted a big wall denim blue to highlight some Mexican Tonala “Burnished” pottery she had collected for years, all by some famed artist. The pottery was mostly earthy tones and it was really striking as a group. I had never heard of it before that, I had only heard of Talavera pottery which is very colorful, mostly in primary colors.

People who are interested in primitive pottery like this are very passionate about it. There are modern artists that are creating art in the traditional style and they are very respected.

Here’s some examples of stamps in Native American jewelry. It’s worth it to familiarize yourself with these.

Once I was at a jewelry store and they had a really nice ring on display for about $15. It hadn’t sold and it was on clearance. I saw the trademark on the back and realized it was an original piece by a well known artist. I bought it. It was worth more than ten times what I paid.

Native American pottery is beautiful but I prefer northern US States and Canadian art and baskets made from porcupine quills and sweetgrass.

Years ago, an ex-boyfriend gave me a very small, delicate, two piece ( basket and cover) decorative basket made of porcupine quills and sweetgrass.

It was a gorgeous thing. Some of the quills were dyed to make a flower image and the smell of the sweetgrass was heavenly.

Even back in the 90s it was very expensive.

Someone who was familiar with Canadian tribes said that the tribal folk art of making porcupine quill baskets and art is dying because it's hard to get younger people interested in retaining that skill. I hope that's wrong.

[quote]Someone who was familiar with Canadian tribes said that the tribal folk art of making porcupine quill baskets and art is dying because it's hard to get younger people interested in retaining that skill.

See, now I would think plucking the quills off the porcupine would be the deal breaker.

I own a few pieces of Navajo pottery, which I really like. I don't have any kind of collection, though. I've just seen pieces that I've really liked, that I've purchased at the time. I uploaded a photo of one of my pots. Years ago, I inherited some beautiful little boxes made of birch bark and porcupine quills, which my Grandma had collected during vacations in Canada. I think they were Ojibway-made Sadly, I didn't value them back then, but would treasure them now, if I had kept them.

Yes, especially the antique $100,000 Navajo blankets.

Several years ago I was opening a sparkling new Pepsi bottling plant on an Algonquin reservation when I wandered into the "teepee" of a native American craftswoman and I was introduced to the beauty of indigenous jewelry.

A parure of colorful turquoise sparks up one's eyes and ears and draws a beau's attention to your face, thereby distracting him from glancing nervously around the room, worrying that acquaintances might report his being there with you to his wife.

I wore a pair of Minnetonka moccasins just today. I’ve started looking out for authentic turquoise at thrift shops after gaining appreciation for it in Wyoming. I’ve got a ring with a beautiful chunk, and a bracelet with a small piece. Also a couple of vintage Ralph Lauren sweaters, hand knit Navajo patterns in desert/sunset colors.

If you’re looking for Native American jewelry, keep your eyes out for auction houses. This one specializes in Native American jewelry.

[quote] Years ago, I inherited some beautiful little boxes made of birch bark and porcupine quills,

Thank you r42. In my post at r40 I referred to "porcupine quills and sweetgrass."

I was wrong. That little basket and cover was made of porcupine quills and birch bark and smelled of sweetgrass. I'd give everything to enjoy that heavenly smell again and to still have that basket my ex gave me.

I was too young to appreciate it when I had it, as my Mom pointed out to me, so, eventually I let her take it. I think she gave it to someone who really appreciated it, or, sold it for a hefty sum.

Good for her and stupid of me.

OP, I hope you started this thread with good intentions but you type thick, as if you have no clue about Native American history or culture. You post a pic of the most cliche’ moccasins and act as though you can’t google the proper spelling of anything. I’m not an SJW and assuming you are just naive, I ask that you read about the American people’s and government’s attempts to slaughter the Native Americans from the moment we set foot on the continent. Then wear your moccasins with pride around rainy London.

R34

I love that movie beyond comprehension.

Dear r48 - I'm sorry I didn't spend several hours reading up on this topic before I posted and checking google for spelling. This isn't The Oxford University Debating Society, this is jokey DL. You set about trying to sound superior but end up revealing yourself to be extremely slow-witted.

Yes, especially their jewelry. I have an old pawn turquoise bracelet that had incorporated beaver claws in it, but it looks like wood or old amber. Also some chokers. When I used to wear them, people would assume (even Native Americans) that I was NA. I would have loved a headdress or a chest piece, but people would just scream "cultural appropriation"

Smell you, R48

Poor R48.

I try to appreciate Native American culture for what it is, but I can’t help but associate everything about it with living in the dirt.

What, R54, you mean "outdoors"?

i wonder if there are still "shamen" or whatever they are called around...

There are tons of NAs on Tiktok doing that shoe challenge. Their ceremonial clothes are spectacular.

R45, antique shops sometimes sell Native American jewelry at a good price. If you know a bit about the jewelry, Craigslist sometimes has some. Start by looking at a large amount of jewelry on a site like alltribes.com and get the general idea of prices and what you’re looking for. Then you’ll know if you’re getting a good deal.

R53 Don’t feel sorry for me. I stated my boundaries. I’m not mad at OP but his original comment seemed like he just didn’t care. I don’t know - our treatment of the NAs is so horrific that I don’t want to see it dismissed, for want of a better word. Like slavery. Having said all that, I have my mom’s cactus blossom necklace from the 70s. It’s pretty freakin’ amazing.

[quote]I don’t know - our treatment of the NAs is so horrific that I don’t want to see it dismissed, for want of a better word.

Hold up, Kemo sahbee. I personally have not treated any Native American's poorly. In fact, I annually contribute to their cause by way of slot machine or Texas Hold'em.

^ Americans.

R60, I don't necessarily think you'll agree with me on this, but the idea is that we whites all benefited from the taking of land from indigenous peoples and redistribution of it to mostly anglo-american people.

I haven't personally mistreated any N.A.s, but my family definitely wouldn't have become millionaires if they hadn't gotten Indian lands for free in the 1800s. Also, anyone white and American for more than a generation has benefited from being on top of the caste system in the U.S. That's how I think about it.

A friend of mine did a lot of volunteer work on a Rez in the 90s, New Mexico I think. It wasn't patriarchal or patronizing but he became a well-loved part of the community. When it was time for him to move on they made him an honorary tribe member and gave him the most beautiful headdress you have ever seen -- it was like something out of the movies. Amazing. To see one in person brought tears to my eyes.

I also dated a guy who was 50% Choctaw with the most beautiful smile and biggest dick imaginable.

R62 Your ancestors in Europe worked very hard to build the technology and advanced culture that enabled them to become predominant in North America and build the modern world. Disease played a very big part in the decline of the Indians. Stop with the guilt, already.

Here's a good source for you, OP:

I love Native American stuff, I have a nice Navajo rug in my living room, and an old turquoise ring that's probably forth about 500x what I paid for it by now. The pottery is lovely, but I'm not getting any as long as I have cats, particularly one with ADHD.

Sadly, a man can't wear any more turquoise than a ring, unless he's an old Navajo, or a leathery old hippie who lives in Arizona or New Mexico.

I've had my fill.

I don't know where anybody would get the impression that the moccasins OP posted are kitsch.

I'm a tribal member and have been to many, many pow-wows and have seen up-close all of what is sold and traded at them.

The beadwork on those moccasins looks to be done by hand rather than attached to them as one piece. Again, I'm assessing them from the grainy photo, but if the beadwork was handsewn/attached to the underlying buckskin itself by needlepoint, I can assure you, they're one-of-a-kind, and nothing close to kitsch.

r63, I worked with a NA actor a decade ago, and they put him in tight leather pants. I swear he had a 24 oz beer can in his pants- we were all mesmerized by it. The costumer confirmed that was the real thing.

R66, a lot of guys wear NA bolo ties, bracelets, watches and rings. It’s a pretty unisex style of jewelry.

I bought a lot of NA jewelry from an elderly woman whose husband also had a bunch of NA jewelry. I got the impression he was a biker or dressed something like that when he was younger. He used to travel to the Southwest a lot and bought jewelry for both of them. There’s no reason why you can’t wear it with a black or gray suit, or a white, gray or black t-shirt for that matter. It’s very transitional and American.

Also, there are a lot of really nice NA belts and belt buckles. Some are ornate, others are minimalist and modern looking like the all-silver overlay Hopi designs.

I find there is a rather large segment of the "white trash" population into this stuff. The ones who claim they have Cherokee ancestry.

They buy made-in-China rest stop junk and decorate their trailers with it, like this:

Here’s some pictures of celebrities wearing Native American jewelry, male and female. Guys can even wear squash blossom necklaces with the right outfit. I noticed one guy wearing one with a white tank and a denim overshirt. Other guys wore bracelets, rings and necklaces with dress suits. It’s one of the few kinds of jewelry that looks right dressed very up or very casual. There are a lot of Native American designs that are chunkier and more masculine for men.

Some of the pottery and metalwork is pretty cool. If you have a cabin it’s nice accent decor. I have some Ojibwe stuff from the Midwest. The reservations are pretty depressing so I like shopping.

Moccasins and beadwork do little for me. I do have a frauen dreamcatcher though that I bought from a reservation in Ontario.

R73, they all look like they are wearing costumes en route to Coachella.

Real Native jewelry is handmade, and it’s pretty collectible and expensive now.

A lot of the original American turquoise mines in the U.S. are played out, and what’s left can be very expensive for Native American jewelry makers to buy. In China, there are some newer turquoise mines with nice stones.

But a lot of “turquoise” today in cheap jewelry is crushed bits stabilized in acrylic, or dyed. The really pretty stones or big stones are in vintage pieces, which are available everywhere.

Native designers now use a lot of non-turquoise stones due to availability and cost. If you look at modern designs, they’re using some stones they didn’t use in the past as much, like lapis, sodalite, amethyst, onyx and other stones. Or plain silver. Some of the lesser known designers don’t make a lot of money and have to sell a few pieces to buy more supplies to make more. It’s a good way to support the Native community.

This site shows “Old Pawn” (vintage) jewelry. Look at the descriptions. A lot of it is described by the name of the mine. Sleeping Beauty, Lone Mountain, Morenci, Pilot Mountain, etc. Turquoise with more copper in it has a greener tone. A lot of that is from Nevada, but Nevada also has some blue turquoise that’s really beautiful, and some of the closed mines had some really unique stones.

This vintage turquoise is from the famous “Number 8” mine. It closed in 1976.

Here’s a video showing turquoise from the Bisbee mine. Turquoise patterns are like fingerprints, each mine is unique. The matrix (veins) in the turquoise can be different colors depending on what other minerals are present in the stones locally. This mine was shut down in 1974.

More teepees for sale, please. .

My Husband is Native American. He is Lakota. Rosebud Rez, South Dakota. He and his family(and I) are very involved with Native causes. Our house is filled with Native American art and antiques. We have a lot of Pendleton blankets and many Native quilts. We also give to Native charities. And they all go to Pow Wows and wear regalia(not a outfit) and dance. My husband being a Vietnam Vet earned his eagle feathers as a warrior. His tribe by the way is a matriarchal one. There is no such thing as "chiefs" as they are called leaders and can be voted out. The pipe they smoke is a sacred ceremonial pipe not a "peace" pipe. The bowl of the pipe is called "pipestone" and is mined in the upper midwest. Some history about my Husband and other Native Americans. What you didn't learn in school. The Indian Boarding Schools. Native people were not allowed to go to public school in So. Dakota. My Husband(Leo) was sent to a Catholic boarding school in Marty So. Dakota. For nine months out of the year he never saw his parents. His other brothers and sisters in other grades? He was not allowed to see or talk to them and if he did was beaten. The priests raped and beat him. The nuns just beat him. For punishment he was locked in a closet for 3 days with a bucket of water and nothing else. The abuse was horrific(one of his brothers died there). He still has the scars on his back and legs and still has nightmares. The Republican Governors and R Legislators in So. Dakota stopped any lawsuits that these children had against the Catholic church etc.

Here is some of our artwork:

For R75. This is Bokeem Woodbine in Fargo.

Here’s Bill Hader, for the Bill Hader fan who is floating around somewhere on DL.

I used to collect Mexican sugar skulls from the day of the dead. And then I went through a bad period when I ate them all.

R80 The Lakota are hard core. Very vocal in the UN system where I 've met some top Lakota activists. Impresive.

Apparently Prada made their own bolo tie. This story is from March 2020, back when people used to be able to go carefree to crowded social events.

The moccasins are very cool. I appreciate the textiles, and have a chair upholstered in an old Navajo rug. It's irather interesting how many of the designs have similar elements as Turkish flat weave rugs.

[quote]and have a chair upholstered in an old Navajo rug

That sounds really nice.

Thanks R88. It's developed some loose threads that I'm not sure what to do with, but it seems rather ancient. Much older than the chair.

Thanks for all the info in this thread, I'm learning a lot!

Navajo rugs are super expensive now. A lot of people use Kilims and Kilim upholstery with Western decor because it’s cheaper. Kilims are from Turkey and the surrounding tribal areas. A lot of the specific shapes have meanings.

R89, I have a bunch of kilims and I found a local guy who is from Turkey and cleans flat weave rugs professionally. The difference in quality between the last guy, who was an Oriental rug cleaner, and this guy, is night and day. He really understands kilim cleaning so much better.

Find a guy who specializes in selling Native American rugs and they will know somebody that can reweave or repair your woven chair.

I like this modern style with a bolo tie. This minimalist look is good for showcasing all kinds of jewelry.

[quote]and have a chair upholstered in an old Navajo rug

Wanna post a pic?

R94, I would if I wasn't such a luddite. I just saw a pet thread I had found interesting with some instructions for computer users. I only have ipad mini!

Some of those celebs may support Indian artists but some, like Aww-nold, are just poseurs who want to signal they have a home in Santa Fe or Taos, or have just been there.

Aww-nold was the worst governor Cali ever had.

"Stuff?"

Me like-um, OP. How! Please pass-um peace pipe!

[quote]It’s one of the few kinds of jewelry that looks right dressed very up

Only on the reservation, Tonto.

[quote]an Oriental rug cleaner

I got me an Oriental gardener and my neighbor had an Oriental laundry.

“Oriental rug” isn’t the same as “Oriental person,” R100. Rug sellers themselves call pile patterned area rugs “Oriental rugs.” It’s a rug category, not specific to China, and they’re made all over the world out of every material available.

Higher end Oriental rugs are usually wool. Sometimes silk. They can be worth tens of thousands. But it can also mean those synthetic rugs people sell thrown over a fence at street corners. It’s a very generic pile rug category.

“Flat weave rugs” refers to rugs woven without a backing, like kilims or dhurris. Kilims are usually from Turkey, Afghanistan or other Arabic countries and hand woven, usually made by tribal women. Dhurris are usually flat weave Indian rugs. They aren’t always some type of pattern specific to India. They’re just made in India. They can be very generic in appearance. Dhurris and kilims used to be made not only as rugs but also as packing material for shipping. Tribal people use kilims not only as rugs but also as room dividers, wall insulation or blankets. Women are taught to weave them as girls and the skill is like their dowry, because they can support the family with it. Kilims have patterns that are not usually generic. The different geometric patterns and symbols woven into the rugs usually have meaning, sometimes people, fruit or flowers or symbolize something. They can be stories. They may differ depending on the tribe. But a lot of times they’re the same.

“Persian” rugs refers to wool or silk rugs made in what was formerly Persia, now Iran. They’re often finer grade rugs than the generic “Oriental.” They can be worth tens of thousands of dollars.

Here’s a video about some symbols used in Navajo rugs. What’s interesting about this is rug makers around the world have been using woven symbols to describe certain things for centuries. For example, rivers, mountains, etc. Some rugs tell a story. Others have good luck symbols.

Here’s some other traditional symbols woven into Navajo rugs.

To show you some other symbols woven into rugs, these are symbols used in kilims. Next time you look at a flat weave tribal rug, see if you can identify some of these common symbols. Some patterns are used in tribal rugs around the world. They aren’t random, they mean something.

What Navajos call the “whirling log” design is what modern people recognize as the swastika. People from India used this symbol too. It’s traditionally a good luck symbol and very auspicious. It’s sad the Nazis ruined it for so many people, but the traditional meaning is completely different from their usage.

We had a silk Oriental rug when I was a kid, and that was the softest rug that I've ever sprawled on. That thing lasted 40 years (I was hoping to inherit it ) until my Dad ruined it with his hoarding.

R 105, Didn't the Nazis reverse the symbol, so it flowed the opposite direction?

R106, Here’s a Navajo rug woven in 1900. Looks like it. It’s so similar though, you know where they got it from. It’s interesting that white supremacists wanted to use an Indian good luck symbol as their symbol. But they believed in a lot of very ancient mythology, and a lot of the fake “Nazi religion” they made up was based on ancient mythological ideas.

Maybe Hitler didn’t know where it came from. I don’t know how well East Indian or Native American designs would have been known in Germany back then, probably not at all. The one on the German flag is also tilted, you don’t see that on tribal items. Probably they used a flag designer who knew his symbols, since flags often use colors and designs to symbolize meanings.

Here’s an interesting article about the ancient and modern use of the Swastika. It was traditionally a religious and holy symbol in many religions. Many countries in modern times have completely outlawed the use of the Nazi symbol and only allow the religious swastika, which is a slightly different symbol.

I wish people were taught what the difference is. In America, due to the First Amendment, people can use whatever symbols they want, even if it’s offensive, but if people knew what it symbolized and that it was so related to the Hindu and Native American culture, maybe white supremacists would find something else. The ancient symbol actually symbolizes religious and spiritual beliefs of people of color, which is ironic.

R87, if you go by common rug patterns, it seems like people traveled around various countries of the world maybe hundreds or thousands of years earlier than we know.

There are tribal rug patterns dating back hundreds, maybe thousands, of years all over the planet. Rug weavers in Turkey or Japan or the Americas weren’t looking up rug patterns on the Internet. How did they learn these common patterns and assign them common meanings? I wonder if somebody has tried to track down these patterns based on when they first appeared.

Tribal rugs are traditionally made by tribes of nomadic (traveling) people. How far did they or their rugs travel? Tribal flat weave rugs were once used to pack fragile items like furniture for shipping. The “valuable” rugs back then were the Oriental pile rugs with a backing, tribal rugs were thought by Europeans to be cheap rugs, not as refined as pile Oriental wool or silk rugs. I’ve read that some people who received goods packed with kilims back in the day just thought of them as cheap packing material and threw them away! In those days, everything arrived by ship after long journeys. A lot of goods shipped to the Western United States had to go around South America. No Panama Canal then. So the trips were many months.

Was somebody packing fragile goods on ships with tribal rugs in Europe or Asia, then the rugs arrived in the Americas and Native American rug weavers copied some of the symbols? Or did ancient tribal nomads walk or sail across to Alaska thousands of years ago and the rugs were carried down from there?

Who's had Native American cock? Spill it , DLers!

[quote]Disease played a very big part in the decline of the Indians. Stop with the guilt already.

R64 The European settlers brought in the 'disease' (chicken pox) that killed the Native Americans. There's plenty of room for the guilt.