‘We’re at War’: New York City Faces a Financial Abyss

Thoughts and prayers.

She's fine. She sends her love.

" Myyyyyyyyyyyy little town blues are melting away........................"

Well, every big city is probably going to have to reevaluate and reinvent. The huge density push of the last 20 years and the sky high rents are going to be a thing of the past.

And it will wreak havoc on the economy. Most companies will be seriously downscaling their office space since they know employees can work at home now. There's benefits to them and to employees, but demand for commercial real estate space will plummet.

R3 that’s a good one, that’s funny

Are the adult book stores open? Any adult cinemas?

Since the hotel occupancy rate is so low are they offering discounts?

I love the smell of schadenfreude in the morning.

Tell me when it's edgy again.

Manhattan is still a ghost town when it comes to the office space. Most everyone is still working remotely.

When you think of the MASSIVE amount of people who normally commute to Manhattan for work its a a very big deal.

Half of NYC have lived in generational poverty for decades. Brooklyn and the Bronx , Chinatown - and Corona, Queens - are full of immigrants and poorly paid hourly workers whose lives have been heavily subsidized by the city in a way that makes their lives bearable. Without the money to support these subsidies, the quality of life will drop to levels that are not bearable - hunger, sickness, no heat in winter, no electricity...

I don't think the impoverished half of NYC will go quietly into the night.

Blame the President.

It’ll be like Death Wish again in 2 years.

I went to my office today to get my ID renewed. It was the first time I’ve been in the city for 6 months (I left the city in March to live with my sister and nieces in the suburbs).

NYC isn’t exactly a ghost town but it feels very empty.

I was stunned at all the construction still going on—big apartment buildings are being completed everywhere. I doubt anyone will buy those apartment to for years. This recession is going to become a depression soon enough

If you don't want to work you don't have to. This according to AOC.

Our problem is a mayor and governor who hate each other and we're in the middle. Bill deBlasio is never proactive. Reacts to situations and always slowly. Teachers and principals took a "No Confidence" vote against him. We're stuck, his final term ends November 2021.

Cuomo is bad too. He just criticizes deBlasio which doesn’t help. NYC is in a lot of trouble.i awe could actually use Bloomberg or even a sane Ghoulani type. If the city gets a socialist lite, it’s RIP.

But everything is great, it’s totally normal where I am, just with masks!!

A lot of people's day to day life is pretty great r17. If you are an office worker with a stable job who is now working remotely its all fine.

But this is about the economy of the city, which is not fine.

[quote]The unemployment rate in New York City is 16 percent

L.A.'s is even worse at 17.5%

I think it's a mistake sending the kiddies back to school there.

We can’t keep blaming DeBlasio and Cuomo when Congress refuses to help cities that have lost their economy because of Covid.

New York pays the federal govt billions of dollars and the GOP has handed all that money to the red states.

The whole point of the federal govt is to help when people and cities are suffering. The GOP only cares about the rich, not the rest of America.

As cities go, so goes the nation. Less income tax, declining real estate/office tax, less assorted fees and tolls, will be interdependent on multiple fronts. Get ready folks, a full on shit storm is coming no matter who wins the election.

"Our problem is a mayor and governor who hate each other and we're in the middle."

R15/R16 that's a tradition in New York State, are you too young to remember Ed Koch and MARIO Cuomo? They were at each other's throats for over a decade.

R21

See:

And:

I think most people are loving it. Life is better than ever. No commute! That's what I hear. Except for a small proportion who are expected to do more work for less hours.

All these office jobs where people are working remotely, many of them will go away by the end of the year. As furloughed people are starting to hit their 6th month and lose income, what is next for them? There will need to be bailouts for states, cities, and Medicaid. You can almost tell the Democrats are going to win in many areas in the next election, as they clean up this mess they will be blamed for causing it and the pain and price of the cleanup.

[quote]I was stunned at all the construction still going on—big apartment buildings are being completed everywhere. I doubt anyone will buy those apartment to for years.

Remember 201 W. 70th Street.

Yes, people are moving out, but they also are moving into Manhattan as well.

Was down in Tribeca/Chelsea on Monday for dinner and drinks with friends. Saw a few moving vans. all were people moving in, not out.

As for construction continuing, developers have no choice, they've borrowed money from all sorts of places ranging from floating bonds on Israeli stock market, to taking EB-5 money, and everything in between. Buildings have to be completed or money must be returned....

For projects that haven't yet broken ground, that is another matter. Some are going forward, others are on hold...

The obsession with this city is abnormal. What goes up must come down, and that’s a fact for all things in life. NYC was never ever going to keep going strong nonstop.

New York has never gone strong nonstop r30. It went through a big downturn in the 70s/80s but then recovered.

And New York is the most important city in America and arguably the world. Of course it is something people talk about. This board itself is New York based.

NYC is not the most important these days. Internet has changed things. Businesses are relocating these days because they realized NYC isn’t needed like it used to be years ago. You can do it all in any city now

The government has two options now: re-opening the economy and let some people die or continuing the restrictions and the whole economy collapses.

Well, the government has prolong the impending deaths of those fattards for months. If they are so selfish and haven't tried to lose weight, then why the whole economy must crumble for them???? Selfish fat people.

True r32. I've said this on other threads, but mid-tier cities all over the US are not the backwater shitholes they used to be. They've improved dramatically and are quite cosmopolitan now. NYC or LA or San Francisco are not the end-all be-all for young professionals anymore.

Many businesses started and based in NYC have been moving to other cities over the past few years, even before Covid. Now they’re moving even faster. NY1 did a segment on this days ago, of the many business owners in NYC who are moving. One of the main relocations are FL cities.

I work in NYC in the "entertainment" industry. it lost nearly 240,000 jobs in the week that covid hit. There is at this time NO sign that anything will reopen in the foreseeable future. you cunts who bitch on can go fuck yourselves, you nasty fuckheads.

oh, and this nonsense,

[quote] re-opening the economy and let some people die or continuing the restrictions and the whole economy collapses.

nothing like that will happen. a broadway show opens, two people get sick and die, the WHOLE show closes down. you idiots who only see a zero-sum world deserve to die of covid.

[quote]I love the smell of schadenfreude in the morning.—It smells like... victory.

i hope you die

tough times ahead...who is still collecting unemployment? are you guys back to work yet?

I'm going to miss vibrant, dense cites if they decline. Hopefully most or some can recover. Like someone upthread said - unless you get the hundreds of thousands of workers back, any city is going to be drastically different even if everything else is back to normal. And, even if office work "recovers," somewhat, I don't think it will ever be like it was at it's peak - thus cities will have to be different.

Yes, technology allows us to do so much more at home now - especially work and entertainment. And, many on DL seem to LOVE that. I do to a degree, but I also like being out in the world and experiencing the city "grind" with all the hustle and bustle.

"The government has two options now: re-opening the economy and let some people die or continuing the restrictions and the whole economy collapses. "

Government seems to have settled halfway in between.

BdeB has launched his latest salvo in race baiting/class warfare; he's going to bust SoHo by rezoning in aid of pushing in tons of "affordable" housing.

The workers aren't back yet. I walk around midtown Manhattan every day and it's pretty empty compared to pre-covid. The traffic is back for sure though...I go downtown in the financial district and it's quite empty as well.

Lots of empty retail stores downtown...

Only about ten percent of Manhattan office workers have returned. Midtown south down to Tribeca/FiDI are nearly empty. If it weren't for people who live in area things would be far more desolate.

There was some movement a few weeks ago to start bringing large numbers of employees back, but now with covid-19 numbers starting to uptick in certain areas, that's all off it seems.

Lots of empty retail everywhere, and things are only going to get worse IMHO.

Between offices no where near even half staffed, and tourism almost nil (especially international) places just don't have street traffic that drives much retail. Couple this with many having fled for places outside of city, and or doing much shopping online things are just very bleak for all sorts of retail.

Two final nails in many retailers coffins are limits on numbers of persons allowed inside at a time, and that landlords are largely not budging on forward and back rent. State and city have prevented evictions for both commercial and residential tenants, but in both situations that does not prevent rent from racking up each month. Sooner or later these various moratoriums are going to expire, then what? Just as with residential retailers are going to find themselves owing huge amounts of rent all at once.

When I can rent a Manhattan studio for 700 a month i will move back.

Families fled the cities in the early 50s due to polio fears. Cities will be back. The population will demand retail and services. It’s just a temporary cycle that will repeat again until a new COVID virus crosses species barriers and causes a new pandemic. But we keep short circuiting natures way of thinning the herd with medical cures. The earth’s population will soon exhaust the available resources and then all of these diseases will roar back with a vengeance. I’m sure I’ll be dust by then.

R46, I agree cities will bounce back to some degree. But, unlike post-polio, we have technology that enables more people to stay away - most importantly technology to work from home and shop - for good. If they feel safe, plenty of people will want to come back for nightlife, culture, tourism, etc., and plenty of people want to live in dense cities. But, the number of people who NEED to come back isn't the same as when business life was really concentrated in central cities.

R47 - agree. It’s different. I have a Corp job that sent everyone home to work since March. Seemed like it was working until they realized about 25% of the workers aren’t performing with remote oversight. Productivity is starting to become an issue as the work volume returns to precovid levels. They won’t tolerate this much longer. I suspect they’re looking for ways to get us back to the office.

I love working from home, but I know I'm not as productive as I am in the office. I get too easily distracted.

My garden, however, has never looked better.

2-3 year recession then we rebound. It all about COVID, getting a vaccine and getting treatment. Recession and depression depends on the economic policy.

Trump wants apocalyptic depression, fucking traitor. Republicans in congress want this too.

Biden wants wants to stop the depression with economic tools, stimulus and new deal/new energy policies. Stimulus will get us through the recession, prevents depression. Green New Deal will help our economy rebound for years to come, even after the pandemic.

Vote for Joe Biden PLEASE!

The fact that Mayors Giuliani and Bloomberg helped turn Manhattan from a manufacturing centric economy to a tourist relying one going to impact NYC badly. Even once the pandemic is over (whatever that means) those who lost their entertainment and services jobs will have trouble becoming gainfully employed again because the businesses that employed them will either be out of business or unable to afford a full staff . It will likely take years to return to where we were before COVID.

IF you wipe out student loan debt, reset the housing market and go medicare for all, move back to each American has savings and credit. This also helps the economy. Decreasing the amount the stockholders are paid out, is not the only way to deal with our economy (this one is actually BAD long-term).

Giving more money over to Bezos, Gates or the Kochs is not going to help the economy. It hurts it actually. The damage grows the longer you stay in this voodoo economic model. We might have to raise the tax rate on billionaires and large corporations, which eliminates anyone is the US or operates within the US/Western World to be a billionaire (person or corporation).

Why are Americans helping the Saudi Royal Family make billionaires, and keep it? We really have to think about foreign policy, including economic policy on bad actors.

Every major city is dealing with this - NYC just had more deaths at the beginning.

So the obscenely wealthy landlords and finance guys and corporate executives may face 12 months of difficulty.

Boo fucking hoo.

Yikes, and I thought it was bad here in Norway. The unemolyment is just above 5 %.

R51

You don't know what you're talking about.

Manufacturing was on a decline in NYC long before Rudy Giuliani or Mike Bloomberg arrived.

For much of the northeast from Maine right down through what are now called "rust belt" states manufacturing began declining in 1970's if not earlier. Places began leaving at first for low cost areas of the south, then out of mainland USA all together to places like Mexico, Asia, etc..

Local issues such as high taxes, crime, race riots, corrupt unions, Mafia influence, all played a part. On federal level new environmental and other laws/rules, NAFTA and other treaties which opened up USA markets to foreign competition, didn't help either. Oh and don't forget the horrible "stagflation" economy that dominated much of the 1970's

It wasn't just NYC, but upstate New York, parts of NJ, Conn, PA, etc... all suffered lose of manufacturing base.

What Rudy G. and Bloomberg did was realize the past was gone and manufacturing wasn't coming back to NYC in any big way ever again, so what replaces that part of economy. NYC was and is doing vastly better than say Detroit, a former center of manufacturing that is still struggling to regain its footing.

More fresh hell for NYC economy; Broadway won't be reopening until at least June 2021.

This is going to cause all sorts of economic pain, in particular unless something is done on unemployment benefits everything will have ended long before that date.

The closing of Broadway is a signal to any potential tourists that New York is not safe for them to visit. So, all that revenue will be lost and citizens will have to make up the shortfall somehow. No services for you.

The effects of the economic downturn are beginning to be felt in Queens.

The economy is for the American people. you seem think think the money is just for the billionaires. Whenever there is a new energy and the country invests into it, there is a boom. Other countries are doing this, so we have no choice to do this, or unless we will be left behide. it hard to get out of not investing in science or energy. So green new deal helps the economy. Not investing in Green New Deal hurts the economy.

More importantly, we have to do it because Climate Change is real. The Climate Crisis is DIRE. We have to stop putting heat trapping gases into the environment. Think of the Covid Pandemic as a dress rehearsal for what HELLSCAPE is to come.

Solar technology and other renewables are so much better. Solar is unlimited. We have to go here.

This is real a no brainer. Green New Deal is every way leads to better outcomes across the board. Fossil Fuels is DEATH across the board, no matter how you are looking at it.

R57

Rubbish!

Many if not most Broadway theaters are old to ancient. Seats are far too close together and houses need (or hope) to have every one filled for each performance. Operating at reduced capacity simply isn't a viable option as shows just wouldn't break even out of the gate.

Backstage and in orchestra pit things are even worse; cramped and close quarters where social distancing just isn't possible. Few if any of these houses have modern HVAC systems capable of air cleaning/purification of even aircraft level much less a hospital. Thus cramming several hundred people in seats, and scores backstage right now is a formulae for disaster. Broadway is obviously shooting for some sort of solution by next summer such as vaccine, or maybe the epidemic has subsided.

Another shoe dropped today; NYC housing courts will resume hearing eviction cases starting next Monday.

With the ending of many social programs there will be no reason for many of NYC poor to stay in town. They will hopefully begin to realize there is more to life than free or low rent paid by the taxpayers and move to where things cost less and work and pay their own way. It will be a blessing for them as they will have much more self esteem for providing for themselves and for the taxpayers here.

Cuomo sent thousands of patients from hospitals back to nursing homes were they died, when a Hospital Ship and Jacob Javits Center were ready to receive them. Cuomo has written "American Crisis" with an October 13 publication date, praising himself for the wonderful job he's done during the pandemic.

R62

Who told you NYC social programs were ending? It just isn't true, and the "poor" aren't going anywhere. No other state nor city offers the vast and bizarre array of services and protections (legal and otherwise) as New York. Well maybe a few areas of California..

Just because NYC housing courts will resume business, that in no way means "the poor" will be facing eviction en masse. Things will go as they usually do, but this time with an added layer of covid-19.

Tenant will cry poor mouth *and* that some how they are affected by covid-19, and thus drag things out for a few or several months.

NYC giveaways will have to end in some way or another because they are losing billions in tax revenues.

[Quote] Cuomo sent thousands of patients from hospitals back to nursing homes were they died, when a Hospital Ship and Jacob Javits Center were ready to receive them.

Actually the hospital ship and JJ were never really ready to receive anybody . For most of its time in NY, the hospital ship wouldn’t take COVID patients. JJ also ultimate took so few patients because of all the red tape the federal govt (which manned the two places) put up in order to transfer patients there

[Quote] The closing of Broadway is a signal to any potential tourists that New York is not safe for them to visit.

Um, because it’s not safe to visit NYC

Will this become another 70’s style low point for NYC?

Prominent urban experts say that, assuming COVID is done in the next year, NYC will recover quickly. It also depends on who becomes president and will bail the city out.

Interestingly the GOP defunds the police by not funding big cities. Without money, the cities have to fire cops.

Why should the country bail NYC out? Even if there is a bailout, the city should reconsider its budgets. It also needs to fire the cronies who make up its public health department. Compare NYC’s public health department to that of SF, people should realize the importance of having smart, capable professionals for these important positions.

R65

City budget if billions short now, and that hasn't stopped much of the social spending. Nor will it in 2021 either because it is an election year, and every socialist, left, progressive, democrat running for any office from mayor on down has jumped on the "equality" and "inclusion" for the poor bandwagon.

Since almost entire city council, most borough presidents, the comptroller, and some other offices are term limited out in 2021 the game of musical chairs has begun. Those seeking to be elected to another office, or want a city, state or even federal appointment (assuming Biden wins in November) are all falling over themselves about inclusion, equality and whatever for the poor, POC, and other minorities.

Besides if city is still hemorrhaging red ink next year BdeB and city council will do what they've always done; raise property and other taxes. Again they are all largely term limited out anyway, so don't have to face ire of voters. The increases in property taxes aren't directly felt by most of BdeB's "BLM" supporters so it doesn't bother them much. They'll see it as BdeB is likely to frame things; asking (or rather making) those who are better off to pay more in aid of those who aren't.

NYC property taxes has gone through the roof in the last 20 years, more due to rate increases, which I've lost counts but is in the double digits, rather than because of increased property values.

Why can't city officials have a polite conversation about fraud and waste. I work in city government and honestly can tell everyone there is enough fraud and waste to correct that would make a tremendous difference. Also, there should be a residency requirement of at least 2 years before you can obtain taxpayer housing and other social services. This would slow the rate of people pouring into the city for benefits. NYC can no longer afford to be the provider for anyone who shows up asking.

[Quote] Why should the country bail NYC out?

NYC is the economic engine for the country. That’s why

[Quote] Compare NYC’s public health department to that of SF, people should realize the importance of having smart, capable professionals for these important positions.

Please, NYC Dept of Health is considered among the best in the world

RE OPEN THE GAIETY STRIP CLUB AND ADD LOTS MORE

INCREASING THE AMT OF WHORE STRIP JOINTS IN TOWN WILL DOUBLE TOURISM, DAHLINK

The mayor's wife, Charlaine McCray, created Thrive NYC to help the mentally ill. After spending more than a million dollars she's not able to give an explanation of how many people have been helped, meanwhile adding friends to the payroll for $100,000 salaries. This is one reason why the Feds don't want to give us a penny.

Chirlaine is a low life criminal and wouldn't even qualify to be a toll collector if she wasn't married to ding a ling Billy. Her close friend Maya Wiley is now running for mayor. If this cheat gets in you can forget any investigation of how Chirlaine wasted nearly half a billion dollars in her mental health blow out.

"NYC is the economic engine for the country. That’s why"

Show some responsibility in controlling your own finances before you start looking for a handout. Even your own posters on DL have criticized the total waste that is happening in your govt.

R77 for the deBlasio's to keep their hand in city government, Chirlane plans to run for Brooklyn Borough President when Eric Adams's term expires. The only reason Mayor Bill was elected twice is low turn out, Only 26% of registered voters bothered to go to the polls, and they were mostly city employees. He has referred to his "ex Lesbian" wife as the "co-mayor," a person no one has elected.

New York is a ghastly place, so crowded, with barely any green space. People have been sick of it for decades already and the plague gives them a chance to move away.

my townhouse has a lovely back yard and terrace and its worth 4 mill

Someone give me a succinct rundown on how Chirlaine managed to be on a task force in charge of free spending in the name of mental health? And New Yorkers are not protesting daily outside the mayor’s home to demand answers? Have people become so accustomed to ineptitude and outright stealing in NYC government?

[Quote] Show some responsibility in controlling your own finances before you start looking for a handout.

That’s BS. New York is the biggest, densest city in the country. New Yorkers of all income levels need services—healthcare, schooling, public transportation, housing, social services, police, fire, etc—like nowhere else in the US.

Because it’s a huge city—we have rich and poor alike. Not taking care of the poor will just lead to more crime.

And with all that, it produces the most money for America. When NYC goes into recession, the nation follows.

[Quote] The mayor's wife, Charlaine McCray, created Thrive NYC to help the mentally ill.

Actually the idea of ThriveNYC is a good one—teaching the city about mental illness so we stop criminalizing it. The problem is the City Council demanded result within a year: “How many people aren’t mental ill anymore?!!”

Well, that was never the point.

[Quote] The only reason Mayor Bill was elected twice is low turn out, Only 26% of registered voters bothered to go to the polls, and they were mostly city employees.

And the shitty candidates against him. And the fact that the previous mayors cares solely about the white rich people in the city.

While DeBlasio hasn’t been a dynamic mayor, crime is at all time lows and he’s done a lot of good with expanding the city healthcare system. I give home credit for that

[Quote] Chirlaine is a low life criminal and wouldn't even qualify to be a toll collector if she wasn't married to ding a ling Billy. Her close friend Maya Wiley is now running for mayor. If this cheat gets in you can forget any investigation of how Chirlaine wasted nearly half a billion dollars in her mental health blow out.

Interesting that you consider these two black women criminals. What crimes exactly did they commit?

So Wall Street, which sucks money out of tax coffers, is just fine? Oh, they’re white over there.

There will be no investigation of Thrive NYC because most City Council members and Department of Investigation execs are Democrats and deBlasio has a history of being vindictive while he smiles in your face.

R82

Same way Evita Peron and similar slappers got their powers; by being close to a man that loves their wife (or mistress) too much.

BdeB rode his interracial marriage and bi-racial son into Gracie Mansion. Like Evita Peron he openly declared from day one to be for the "poor" and "POC", that has been his base, and still remains so. When you throw in SJP white liberal/progressives you've got the ghastly situation that has unfolded.

Between the two groups over past seven years BdeB and city council have opened up the doors to all sorts of spending and policies that are directly aimed at the poor, POC and others who make up their support base. Everything from free feminine hygiene products to basically deciding crimes below felony level are handled by slaps on wrist, if that.

Biggest honey pot of course is patronage; and in virtually every department of city government BdeB and that wife of his have shoved in marginally qualified persons who are raking in huge salaries, and will qualify for city pensions.

R87

Fact that Miss. Corey Johnson is practically on verge of a nervous breakdown and called off his mayoral bid is telling. Even he knows there is much stench with this administration that sooner or later will come out, and he wants to be far away when stuff hits the fan.

Because of the fiscal crisis, there is a moratorium on hiring in city agencies. When deBlasio was asked why his wife was able to add to her staff, he said "Thrive New York" is not a city agency." But their salaries come from public funds. Newspapers and radio-TV hosts have blasted him, He always responds with a shit-eating grin and aFuck You All attitude.

And the money kept rolling in from every side......

When the money keeps rolling in you don't ask how; think of all the people guaranteed a good time now!

R81

It was worth $4M.

It’s probably worth half that today. The outmigration from New York is ahistorical.

It will take 20 years for life in Manhattan to return to normal.

R83

Does it hurt to be that stupid?

R87, there was no investigation because there was nothing to investigate. ThriveNYC was only something horrendous for the conservative Ny Post.

The Council made ThriveNYC develop long term measures of success on which it will report yearly.

The goals and methods of ThriveNYC are still proper and the Council decided to let it continue.

DeBlasio won originally because Bloomberg bought off the Council to overturn the law about only two terms and then focused solely on giving the rich whatever they wanted.

That’s how NYC became an utterly generic city with a fucking Gap on every block.

R93, how’s the weather in Moscow, Vlad?

[Quote]. The outmigration from New York is ahistorical.

Actually not that many people are permanently moving out of NYC. People who have second homes have moved to those homes as long as the pandemic will last. Some people are buying homes in the suburbs, but it certainly isn’t anything significant.

Check out the linked podcast episode of Freakonomics Radio

Nor have real estate prices in Manhattan dropped considerably....which is kind of amazing.

[small]With the ending of many social programs there will be no reason for many of NYC poor to stay in town. They will hopefully begin to realize there is more to life than free or low rent paid by the taxpayers and move to where things cost less and work and pay their own way. It will be a blessing for them as they will have much more self esteem for providing for themselves and for the taxpayers here.

Ha-ha

[quote]With the ending of many social programs there will be no reason for many of NYC poor to stay in town. They will hopefully begin to realize there is more to life than free or low rent paid by the taxpayers and move to where things cost less and work and pay their own way. It will be a blessing for them as they will have much more self esteem for providing for themselves and for the taxpayers here. ha-ha

R86 is a troll and is throwing race into the mix. Disgusting.

Old friends in Santa Fe, NM report that for the first time in history, the median house price has reached $500,000. People are looking for other places and other ways to live.

Having lived in NM for a few years on an academic grant, I'm not sure this is much of a benefit to a place that has a great many poor people that the tourists who fall in love with Canyon Road, the Plaza, and other turista favourites don't see. The outskirts of the city and places like Espanola are home to many who work in the city and but can't afford to work there.

On the other hand, the city probably needs the increased taxes and GRTs from shopping and buying badly, as tourism is stifled and huge annual tax and revenues like Indian Market are cancelled.

If they're families with young children, I hope they checked out the NM public school system, which except for a few outliers in places like Los Alamos, is at the bottom of the barrel nationally, and they'll be shelling out for prep and private secondary schools as soon as the kids get out of primary school.

I wonder where all of this will lead in ten years.

^*work in the city but can't afford to LIVE there . . .

R98, I’ve also found that the rental market has not approved significantly in NYC since the pandemic. I’m working with a moderate budget, and the places suck as much as ever (bathrooms with no sinks, tiny bedrooms with no closets, ugly buildings, bad locations, etc).

NYC will come back and continue being a playground for the rich. Young people with stars in their eyes will keep moving to the city—they’re hungry enough to put up with its many annoyances.

For those of us who are neither young and hungry or wealthy, it’s a constant question of “Is this worth it?”

I Chineee. I buy condo in New York

You're an asshole, R105.

R60, theatres, concert halls and similar venues have opened in other countries with social distancing - i.e. the audience spaced apart and with a reduced maximum number. I don't know where you get this idea from that audiences have to be crammed together for theatres to be able to open once more.

I Chinx , I buy a condo in New York R106, now I am an ashole.

Not sure I believe this story, but....

R109. Please believe. I know someone working at the Louis Vuitton store in Soho on Greene Street and the store was terrorized by looters.

Theater and the arts are subsidized in Europe numbnuts. We actually have to live off ticket sales here.

R110 I didn’t want to believe it...

All the more reason to open them in the US even if just partially, r111. And not all theatres, concert halls, etc. are subsidised in Europe.

R101 is a absolute racist who throws off dog whistles and acts surprised when someone calls him out of his racism.

And still not one example of a single crime either of these so called “criminals” have committed. Not one.

“I’m gay but I’m conservative.”

Well, fuck you. Every right you enjoy now is because progressives went to bat against conservatives for decades.

“Im Jewish but I’m a Nazi”

R114 calls people racist when they expose Chirlaine as a thief and her protegee Maya Wiley as a do nothing Dem. It ain't cause they are black, it is because they are govt looters dear.

R116 That's basically spot on.

Another one bites the dust; Roosevelt Hotel in mid-town is closing permanently.

R102

Homeschooling will be the norm.

...811 square feet of space for $5,000 a month, ...

To accommodate social distancing the price for tickets would rise exponentially.

Broadway seats under $100 are already mythical. Few people could pay $700 per seat.

Now you know things are hitting the fan; highly competitive top public school districts in Manhattan are seeing an exodus of students.

District 2 which covers Greenwich Village is where many parents (straight and gay) move to because of highly rated public schools.

R110

Management has been ordered to “stand down” because of the potential social media backlash, and stores have been looted for millions because no one can stop them without fear of violent retribution.

People live in closets, and for decades medical schools and hospitals were not invested in. Factors that caused you to have a serious city-wide epidemic.

You all want to get rid of the dems and go Republican again. This is insanity.

You probably want to go more progressive, more empathy and science based policies.

" medical schools and hospitals were not invested in.."

Excuse you? NYU, Columbia, and even NYC/CUNY med school are all doing rather well with huge infusions of cash over past several years. Yes, the private medical schools do have a slight edge, but still..

Private hospital systems (New York Presbyterian, NYU-Langone, Northwell, Mount Sinai-Beth Israel....) are doing well enough and have received tons of donated and other money for investments. Mount-Sinai shut and is tearing down the old Beth Israel campus on east side and building new. Northwell is also busy tearing down vast swaths of UES to build and or otherwise making investments.

Where you do have problems is what it always comes down to; places that serve the poor which for all intents and purposes means bascially outside of Manhattan save small areas.

I work in theaters R113 and I’ve worked in Europe. It’s been my job for literally forty years. The VAST majority of theater and classical arts are subsidized in Europe. Period. We are not going to risk Covid so theaters can be open at 25% capacity which is UNSUSTAINABLE for American theaters of all kinds. PERIOD.

You are clearly a Trumpkin and I don’t argue with your ilk. You’re to stupid to breathe. Drop dead. Dismissed.

trump supporters were ranting about de blasio's outdoor dinning plan. WTF is wrong with you? Al Fresco dining is nice. Who is against no death and outdoor dinning?

NYers should never go with a republican ever again.

Yes, there is definitely all kinds of shop lifting going on. Every day in duane reade ( the one i go to ), people come in to steal stuff. as much as they can get. I know the cashiers and they told me.

Actually, as I entered the store last night, there was another short, white guy behind me and the sales person screamed at him to "get out" coz he's a shoplifter. He steals from the store a lot. The cops don't do jack shit that's why the thieves are brazen to go back every day to the same store to steal whatever they can get.

I've been at the store where they were robbed, probably gun point coz the cops were actually there taking statements etc. and the cashier was very upset and I kept asking her if she's ok and what happened but she wouldn't tell me.

R104

City is already coming back in many ways. Also no, rents didn't drop all that much for market rate units (an average of about 11%), but that could have been tempered by LLs throwing in extra months free rent in lieu of steep discounts.

NYC is fine. She sends her love

Defund the police........... until you need them.

Most police officers want better programs for members of their community. Joe Biden supports police officers, not the morons who run some abhorrent police unions. Bad police unions are spending money on themselves, integrating with KKK/white supremacist group and undermine the benefits and safety of police and their communities that they serve. Remember, most police office are good, and want to be the good guys.

Defund the police doesn't mean eliminate the police.

Pretty much all of the big cities are completely insolvent, in massive amounts of debt, and refuse to make cuts to their freebie programs (or reform their ungodly pension liabilities) because that is their voter base. Fuuuuck them.

With their overkill on lockdowns and COVID regulations they'll actually be forced to make some tough choices for once. I, for one, say fuck em - and I say this living in one of the largest cities in the country. They beg and plead to overcount on the census, they want Fed bailouts of their grift and vote-buying (while simultaneously criticizing the Feds at every opportunity), have become soft on crime, and WILLINGLY destroyed their own fragile economies and tax bases. They've already been killing their own small businesses for years now (then blame the landlords for it as if rent is the only expense on a business!) and have cut their throats in the name of "safety."

The "virus" did not create the economic problems. The politicians did. Because they didn't want to lose their cushy positions by oppositions saying "you killed grandma!" Can't have it both ways. STARVE THE BEST AND REAP WHAT YOU SOW!

Cut all social services except for the ones who truly need them, about 30% of the recipients. If people have to work and pay their own way, they will migrate to where they can afford to be. This artifical support system is bringing down the entire city with its massive costs. It should end.

What happened at 201 west 70th St? And yes, I googled.

I see Ronna Romney McDaniel at r124 and r135 has weighed in on urban policy!

High rents in NYC are NOT a problem? You're daft!

Other states are far worse off, and we do have eight MILLION people here after all!

Ronna Romney is home fighting the covid!

[Quote] [R114] calls people racist when they expose Chirlaine as a thief and her protegee Maya Wiley as a do nothing Dem. It ain't cause they are black, it is because they are govt looters dear.

Um, what thievery has Chirlane done exactly? Just because you and the NY Post want to believe she did something wrong doesn’t make it so. In fact, the NYC Council doesn’t think so either.

Wiley is a do nothing Dem? Please name some “done a whole bunch of stuff” Candidates.

[Quote] Defund the police........... until you need them.

Funny, the police in NYC haven’t been defunded at all, but everyone is complaining about the apparent looting.

What’s the point of keeping the same level of police funding if they’re not doing shit?

[Quote] Cut all social services except for the ones who truly need them, about 30% of the recipients. If people have to work and pay their own way, they will migrate to where they can afford to be. This artifical support system is bringing down the entire city with its massive costs. It should end.

Giuliani and Bloomberg did this and we ended up with a city only for the rich, lacking any sense of culture or art, with box stores invading every block. NYC became a fucking mall

Any concentration of wealthy people requires an extensive support system of people to pamper care for it: artists, shopkeepers, taxi drivers, nannies, housekeepers, dog-walkers, repairmen . . .the list is endless. Support services for the non-wealthy are in the interests of the overclass.

R139 is a DeBlasio troll apparently unaware of all the damage Mrs. DeBlasio has done with her mental health initiative THRIVE that has more than $500 million bucks missing. She is being sketchy about where the money went and is not accountable to anyone. A true grifter who hates Mother Cabrini enough to take her off the list of well deserved female statutes to be placed in the city. A first lady with no class at all.

Lots of you should rejoice because now the poor and middle class may get a chance to afford NYC again. All of the glitz and glamour will be covered in trash like the "grittier" NYC that DL wouldn't shut up about. You got your wish, the wealthy have stayed away and apartments may become affordable again. The roaring 20s, am I right?

R142, except that none of those people can afford to live in the city

[Quote] [R139] is a DeBlasio troll apparently unaware of all the damage Mrs. DeBlasio has done with her mental health initiative THRIVE that has more than $500 million bucks missing. She is being sketchy about where the money went and is not accountable to anyone. A true grifter who hates Mother Cabrini enough to take her off the list of well deserved female statutes to be placed in the city. A first lady with no class at all.

Yes, Vlad. If Chirlane were truly a thief, why did the NYC council renew the program? The money was accounted for and she added more objectives to measure.

And just because Italian-NYers packed the nominations box with Cabrini doesn’t mean she deserves yet another statue in NYC. There are other famous female Nyers to celebrate

Proof R146 is Chirlaine DeBlasio troll. She mishandled millions of dollars she was not qualified to handle. She has a staff of 12 who collectively earn over $2 million. One was working in Target doing God knows now earns $124k a year. Talk about helping out a family friend. The woman's only qualification is going to the same church services as Mrs. DeB. Nice job if you can get it. I still call Mrs. DeBlasio a grifter and criminal who has done nothing for the people of the city, the ones who pay taxes anyway.

[quote] Proof [R146] is Chirlaine DeBlasio troll. She mishandled millions of dollars she was not qualified to handle. She has a staff of 12 who collectively earn over $2 million. One was working in Target doing God knows now earns $124k a year. Talk about helping out a family friend. The woman's only qualification is going to the same church services as Mrs. DeB. Nice job if you can get it. I still call Mrs. DeBlasio a grifter and criminal who has done nothing for the people of the city, the ones who pay taxes anyway.

I'm not a Chirlane troll; I'm a truth troll.

There is just no proof at all that anyone "mishandled" money. The incomes people got for joining that initiative are commensurate with incomes of people who join other such initiatives at the Dept of Health. Her staff consists of people who have major roles in the various communities they are trying to target. If one happens to go to church with Chirlane, should she be immediately disqualified? NO.

ThriveNYC needed better accounting of finances and better outcome measurement, not unusual for many new initiatives that use the second year to reset. No one is a criminal or a grifter. The NYC Council renewed the effort because it saw its potential.

Stop reading and spouting the conservative junk the NY Post vomits out.

Here's a pretty even-handed description of the program and how it reset.

Chirlane is a grifter and was not elected to anything. She is unqualified and obviously biased against working people. Sad people fall for her con. If Trump gave Melania close to a billion to play with the libs would be crazed. This woman should be audited and made to pay back the wasted taxpayer money she spends so freely.

Thought this was a really good article touching on a lot of different aspects of the financial situation.

R150

The collapse of CMBS will bankrupt many companies.

NYC isn’t coming back this decade.

[Quote] This woman should be audited and made to pay back the wasted taxpayer money she spends so freely.

She was audited, you idiot. She was audited and grilled by the NYC council. And they renewed the program. Yes, they found she did nothing wrong, no matter what you want to believe.

And she was given money to run a program because she’s an educated, smart woman with a long career in politics.

Melania is basically a prostitute. That’s why she could never run a program. If BeBest is any example, it’s a mockery that is helping no one.

[Quote] Chirlane is a grifter and was not elected to anything.

Hardly anyone who runs government programs is actually elected to the position. Is the head of Medicare elected? How about Social Security? the military? NASA? NIH?

You have no knowledge at all about how govt works, but here you are, chest out, talking about grifting and having to be elected before anyone can do anything.

go away, troll

R152 = Mrs Mayor!

Hello! How's it going? Do you miss being a lesbian?

I wish you luck with your ongoing war against reality, darling Trumpanzee @ R134.

While we're at it, go suck on a bubonic plague infected rat.

Maybe the ridiculously high prices will finally come down.

I lived in NYC in the 90s and left in 1996, and did not come back for a long stay until 2017. I could not recognize it anymore. The prices of everything were so high I could not enjoy myself even as a tourist because I was always aware of how overpriced everything was.

R155

I’m sorry that you are so stupid

[quote] NYC is the economic engine for the country. That’s why

If that is so they don't need Alabama to pay their bills for them.

R153, the people who are appointed in the examples you give tend to be appointed on the basis of merit, experience and an exceptional career path, not because they're married to the mayor.

Boo Hoo, cry me a river. There's so much money in that town it could use a haircut. Let us know when rents drop to normal levels and realtors are not all multi-millionaires. Until then, sorry, not sorry.

Chirlaine wants to next be Brooklyn Borough President, of course. She will hopefully never get there. NYC needs to rid itself of Mr. and Mrs. Munster and their corrupt ways. Mr.s DeBlasio has some of the lowest approval ratings of a First Lady ever. She is detested by most people for her arrogance and corruption.

Here's the result of Mayor Bill's child-like behavior.

Here's the result of Mayor Bill acting like a child.

NY PHIL just cancelled its entire season

[quote] If that is so they don't need Alabama to pay their bills for them.

Alabama doesn't pay bills for anyone, even itself. New York would like the gobs of money it sends to the federal govt to be redirected back to it in this moment of crisis.

Instead the GOP is fine feeding conservative states with blue state money.

Mrs. DeBlasio and her buffoon of a husband should be in a Federal prison already so until the Dems can pass judgment on their own, they cannot expect to run the country.

How did DeBlasio happen? I mean, even a lot of Dems and a large segment of the left think he's trash.

Artists thrive in the midst of urban decay. From the late1970s-1983 my boyfriend's band played in dumps like CBGBs w/ Talking Heads, Blondie, Patty Smith, etc . . . I was a groupie/cocksucker,/art dilatant with enough flair to score the occasional pic on the arm of an infamous someone or a mention in Interview mag. Everyone I knew led a feast/ famine existence. We lived in the stylish slums of Alphabet City. By 1985 NYC had dusted itself off and our dangerous dumps, dives, and slums turned unaffordably middle class and dull. Urban decay . . . more please.

R168 Get! Get Outta Here, FRAU!!!!!

I wouldn't bet on NYC falling apart and becoming a new bohemian paradise. Big tech certainly isn't.

This is debunked, R135.

On a per capita basis, red states receive *less* per resident in Federal monies than blue states. Blue states DO pay more on a per capita basis but that is because the mega-wealthy largely live in blue states, shifting the curve.

Federal monies going back to red states are a larger percentage of their overall budget than blue states, BUT the red states' budgets are usually much smaller compared to blue ones.

In your example:

Alabama: $32b / $6,600 per resident

New York: $177b / $9,100 per resident

It's also important to note that those who receive entitlements (often funded with these fed $) identify as Democrat so it's not going to your wingers just because it goes to a red state.

Statistics can be used in many ways. But the notion that blue states pay for the red states is not true.

^^ that was to R165

R171, that's just twisting the statistics.

Sure, NY may receive more per resident, but blue states pay the large bulk of federal taxes.

That means the money, whether it goes to red or blue states, mainly comes from the blue states.

As for [quote] It's also important to note that those who receive entitlements (often funded with these fed $) identify as Democrat so it's not going to your wingers just because it goes to a red state.

That's BS. No one ever asks political affiliation. Whites make up most of the welfare recipients, and Medicare is considered an entitlement. Most federal money that goes to states can't be traced down to individuals so there can be no such correlation (like money that goes to build a hospital, for example).

You troll make a point that is feasible and then follow it up with a blatant lie that kills your argument altogether.

[quote] It's also important to note that those who receive entitlements (often funded with these fed $) identify as Democrat

Liar

[quote] Statistics can be used in many ways. But the notion that blue states pay for the red states is not true.

Um, your post is a bunch of BS because it shows nothing like that at all. It just shows red states get less per capita, That money, even less per capita, is mainly coming from blue states.

Soon after Bill was elected, he had a high fence built around Gracie Mansion, the official residence. He was always late for morning meetings, which insiders attributed to Bill and the Mrs. smoking pot every night behind the high fence. At one public event in the Rockaways, he was so late they started without him.

R171, this report refutes your BS numbers.

New York State ranks 47th for amount of federal money it gets per capital: $1792/resident

Alabama ranks 7th at $6694/resident

[quote][R155] I’m sorry that you are so stupid

Oh wow. I guess you told me. How shall I ever recover?

While I'm finding a way to somehow go on with my life, please feel free to explain to the class how ripping the lid off all public health regulations in the middle of a raging pandemic would cause the US economy to come roaring back. Mention the Swedish model once and you'll get smacked. Hard.

R167, he is trash, and the voters were not excited by him. I think that the big real estate interests that dominate the city (see the excellent article linked at R150) figured that they could work with him, because he's so malleable, and everything seemed to be going well.

He had a "D" after his name, which means automatic election in NYC, no matter how good or corrupt the candidate. When it comes to electing politicians, New Yorkers are incredibly stupid.

[quote]On a per capita basis, red states receive *less* per resident in Federal monies than blue states.

Nice try Boris, but not twisting facts dose not make it so. It's not about "per resident". Total money from Blue states going out far exceeds what red states contribute.

And stop quoting Lindsey Graham for your talking points cunt. He just said the same thing word for word during the hearings.

[quote]When it comes to electing politicians, New Yorkers are incredibly stupid.

I will second that!

"He had a "D" after his name, which means automatic election in NYC."

Guiliani (R), Bloomberg (R)/(I)?

These are the two previous mayors.

"Guiliani (R), Bloomberg (R)/(I)?"

"When it comes to electing politicians, New Yorkers are incredibly stupid."

Oh no, the Kushner family might lose some real estate!

[quote] He had a "D" after his name, which means automatic election in NYC, no matter how good or corrupt the candidate.

Maybe if Republican leaders weren't so absolutely awful, they'd get elected more.

R186 - You're speaking only of the city. My understanding is that "upstate", as it were, Republicans do get elected, quite often.

"Absolutely awful" is exactly what de Blasio has been, ditto Ed Koch, ditto David Dinkins. It's not so much the absolute awfulness of Republicans, it's the tribal domination of a city that is overwhelmingly urban liberal left. They'll vote for any absolutely awful Democratic candidate.

Really, quality doesn't seem to have much to do with it. Everyone knew de Blasio was likely to be awful. Nicole with the difficult last name never stood a chance. Mike Bloomberg was elected as a Republican and served 3 terms. If he wasn't 1000% better than de Blasio, he was hardly worse.

De Blasio's real last name is Wilhelm and he changed it first to Wilhelm-de Blasio and then again as he rose in the city's politics just to "de Blasio" to sound more "NY Ethnic", and he was a child of privilege.

He is phonier than a $3 bill and I don't know a single resident of New York, and they ALL fall into the Liberal Left Upper West Side demographic, except the couple who live in Brooklyn - in wealthy Park Slope.

Every one of them hates de Blasio's guts.

The problem with NYC is not its mayors--it's because the city is so huge, with huge disparities in wealth.

Koch, Dinkins, Giuliani, Bloomberg, DeBlasio have been awful in their own ways. Giuliani benefited from the Clinton economic boom but took full credit for it. Bloomberg's laser focus on the wealthy at the expense of poor, often minority NYers, led the the backlash that brought us DeBlasio.

DeBlasio should get credit for supporting the lowest crime rates in decades and expanding healthcare services to all but he's dealing with a crashing economy--one that the federal govt is in no hurry to help with.

[quote] It's not so much the absolute awfulness of Republicans, it's the tribal domination of a city that is overwhelmingly urban liberal left. They'll vote for any absolutely awful Democratic candidate.

Please do tell us who running as the Republican candidate would have been a better when the Dems got elected

[quote] Mike Bloomberg was elected as a Republican and served 3 terms. If he wasn't 1000% better than de Blasio, he was hardly worse.

Bloomberg was only elected as a Republican the first time. He changed from Dem to Republican because he couldn't get the Dem party support

[quote] Everyone knew de Blasio was likely to be awful. Nicole with the difficult last name never stood a chance.

Nicole Malliotakis ran against DeBlasio and was too busy knocking gay marriage and complaining about the 9/11 Mosque. She wasn't elected, not because NYers don't vote for Republicans (NYers have often had Republican mayors), but because she was awful and hateful. She relied on the typical republican playbook--try to scare people.

Now, she's running against Max Rose in Staten Island for a Congressional seat with the same stupid strategy.

A brain dead Republican is better than DeBlasio, sorry but DeB is that awful.

Vote for me, bitches. I'm better than all of them.

This man can save NYC. Nobody else, especially not the corrupt BFF of Chirlaine DeBlasio, Maya Wiley, arf arf.

R194, no he can’t. A wall streeter will only care about pleasing the rich.

We’ve tried that too many times already

[Quote] Nobody else, especially not the corrupt BFF of Chirlaine DeBlasio, Maya Wiley, arf arf.

Um, corrupt how exactly?

Crickets

[Quote] A brain dead Republican is better than DeBlasio, sorry but DeB is that awful.

Actually no he’s not that awful

R196 doesn't even need a reply, just a Chirlaine apologist who has never read anything anywhere about the missing millions of funds that the unqualified and unelected Chirlaine had no business overseeing from the get go. I would have no problem if NYers started chanting lock her up at the mention of her name.

R198, you’re obviously an anti- Chirlane troll, nope to use innuendo for us to start hating her.

Do you work for a rival campaign or something? A GOPer maybe.

You can keep saying she’s somehow corrupt and a criminal and that no unelected person should run a program (how would America run is every program was run by someone who have to be elected?)—- but you have an agenda.

[Quote] just a Chirlaine apologist who has never read anything anywhere about the missing millions of funds that the unqualified

And yet the NY council renewed the funds.

Take your trolling elsewhere!

Troll alert for 200. Chirlaine is a grifter and was elected to nothing. She is corrupt as the day is long. Poor suckers who think she is a good person. The meek won't inherit the earth, only grifters like Chirlaine.

Chicago voted best large city....again.

[quote] Troll alert for 200. Chirlaine is a grifter and was elected to nothing. She is corrupt as the day is long.

...According to the candidate you represent, of course

"DeBlasio should get credit for supporting the lowest crime rates in decades and expanding healthcare".

R188 The violent crime rate had been dropping long before Wilhelm became mayor. He has nothing to do with falling crime rate - violent crime has dropped sharply across the US. Some theories include the effects of Roe V Wade, and the game Grand Theft Auto (after GTA became popular, actual car theft/car jacking declined) - among other theories. None involve anything that Wilhem has done.

The sole reason for the expansion of access to healthcare has been ACA. In NYS, expanded Medicaid has let to 1/3 of New York residents being covered by Medicaid. NYS spends about $70 billion a year on Medicaid. Wilhelm has absolutely no role in this - but Cuomo does.

[quote]Another one bites the dust; Roosevelt Hotel in mid-town is closing permanently.

Will someone please think of the bedbugs!

Bill and Chirlaine will hopefully be run out of town by a posse of middle class taxpayers sick of their grifting and spending like drunkards to give freebies to people who don't work and never will try to find work.

Why don't they house the homeless in the Roosevelt?

[Quote] Bill and Chirlaine will hopefully be run out of town by a posse of middle class taxpayers sick of their grifting and spending like drunkards to give freebies to people who don't work and never will try to find work.

And this attitude is exactly why NY voted out Republicans....like you

[Quote] The violent crime rate had been dropping long before Wilhelm became mayor. He has nothing to do with falling crime rate - violent crime has dropped sharply across the US

And he kept it low over 6 years.

I usually work in midtown right across from Rock Center and above the concourse. Work for a global firm and we've been remote since March. Everybody. Support staff. They didn't even let people go you'd think might no longer had relevance. It's going very well; the U.S. offices are very busy and making money. So, everybody normally considered essential on site are doing it remotely, and there's been a skeleton staff rotating on staggered shifts since Phase 3. So, the local Cafe Metros, Duane Reeds, Dunkin Donuts, the million food places in the concourse - how are they surviving? Well, many (most) aren't. My question though is my company is doing well. They shifted to virtual over night, already had the IT infrastructure to make it work, and issues like staff working remotely, which probably would have been talked about without resolution for years, were solved over night with staff working remotely and effectively. This being the case, why should companies like this one pay through the nose for premium mid town real estate that can house their hundreds of employes? Why not shrink down and just rotate people in and out as needed, which turns out to be less often?

It's all the businesses that supported hundreds of thousands of people working daily that I wonder about. What if even when COVID is over it turns out that in-person model is obsolete and firms dont' go back?

R210

Dump CMBS now.

The defaults are going to be astonishing.

That McCray woman announced this week she won't be running for borough president of Brooklyn next year.

As many of us who actually live in NYC have been saying; rumors about city's demise have been greatly exaggerated.

Some employers are leaving/shutting down true, but Big Tech is doubling down on NYC.

I wonder if those offices will be filled, if ever. Google and Facebook have already announced workers will be WTH until at least July 2021 and FB has also announced that most of its workers will be WTF permanently.

I don't think there is anyway around the fact that the office culture as it was pre-Covid is not coming back anytime soon, if ever. For tech and most everybody else.

In other local NYC news from last week Deutsche Bank will not fully reoccupy FiDi office before moving uptown.

DB leaving marks final nail in coffin of Wall Street being home to big banks. DB was last man standing down there, and even they had plans to make tracks.

So strange when you think of buildings like 40 or 60 Wall Street even late as 1980's still home to large banks. Now so many of those buildings have been either torn down and property redeveloped into luxury housing, or just gut renovated into same.

Big tech isn’t actually moving into those spaces R213. Signing a contract is meaningless. They’ll just sue their way or settle out of it when they refuse to take the space because their workers revolt and won’t go into an office. No real estate company can go up against Google when they refuse to pay rent.

I live in NY and midtown is devastated. No one is there. It’s abandoned and empty. These reports I keep seeing about how NY is perfectly fine are delusional. Restaurants are dying. Stores are closed. Offices are continually being emptied. Trains are around 10-15% capacity. It is absolutely an exodus and it’s not stopping.

Do any of you really honestly think that anyone (Republican or Democrat) has a real plan to deal with the mess that New York and the rest of our country has found itself in since covid hit?

Gov. Cuomo announces New York movie theaters to reopen, but not in NYC

Cinemas can resume showings Oct. 23 at 25 percent capacity, with a maximum of 50 people per screen, Cuomo announced at a morning press briefing.

He limited the reopenings to counties outside of New York City, including Nassau, Suffolk, and Westchester, with low coronavirus infection rates and no hot zones.

Large cinema chains had implored Cuomo to allow the reopenings.

R215, is FiDi real? That article assumes we all know and use the term "FiDi" for Financial District.

We don't

[quote] Gov. Cuomo announces New York movie theaters to reopen, but not in NYC

Who the heck needs to go to a movie now? Movie theatres were pretty much dying as a business even prior to Covid.

The absolutely last place I'll risk my life for is the movies.

R216

Live on UES, streets are packed, outdoor drinking/dining etc... is so busy you cannot get down Lexington, Third or Second ..... Traffic is a nightmare, especially on Second, and so it goes.

Mid-town is still no man's land because many companies have yet to bring back remotely even 50% of employees on a daily basis.

Is it all unicorns and roses in city atm? No, but things are still vastly better than March-August.

When, unless or until Broadway, performing arts, and the rest of Manhattan's major businesses (including indoor dining and nightlife )open to at least 75% mid-town is going to be dead as a dodo.

But what do you or anyone else expect? Between Mussolni in Albany, Big Bird in city hall, and associated other persons in government or not who are intent on keeping much of city shut down for long as possible; but not telling businesses or anyone else how they are to manage fiscally why the fuck would any one bother?

Best Cuomo and BdeB et al can come up with is same tired old song; "we need federal aid from Washington........"

R221, we’d all be fine if you’d just wear your fucking masks.

Between the Hassids and the hipsters, YOU all are the problem, not Cuomo and DeBlasio. They’re not causing Covid infections to spread—you all are.

Things are shut down because no one wants another 20k New Yorkers to die

R208 you don't know me, and you certainly don't know if I am a Republican. I happen to believe Chirlaine is a criminal and has the look of a moron. Nobody voted for her and she has no business running anything, especially a mental health initiative which she knows nothing about.

Republicans almost seem like a better option than another Bill DeBlasio wannabe like Maya Wiley or his fugly wife Chirlaine.

NYC spends ridiculous amounts of money on programs that get us no where. Endless free housing, SNAP, Medicaid for generations and generations. Some are truly poor (still not right for someone to rely on these programs for life unless they are disabled) and cheat the system (e.g. Hasidic Jews). Reading that European cities subsidize theater is amazing. NYC caters to the least common denominator. We need an overhaul. I hope taxes stay stable or go down and the dead weight leave.

Yeah, rumor is the NYC office of the company I work for is going to be a test case for the entire firm going virtual in large part.

Some of the argument for in person, particularly staff, is staff will slack off if they're not supervised/watched. Well my experience is the opposite. Without supervisors clocking their presence and work ethic, staff are ultra-responsive in order to register on the radar and let TPTB know they're on the job.

It's just that there's an enormous service industry built around people going to work. If, because of COVID, we find out we can do digital / remote much more effectively than previously believed, and assumptions about people's accountability turn out to be wrong and they ARE accountable WTF, what happens to the service infrastructure. Talking business districts, not local districts. In my Brooklyn neighborhood the restaurants in their outdoors format are packed. I noticed Sunday night how many have invested in space heaters and individual outdoor stations encased 3/4 in clear protective barriers and 1/4th exposed to the sidewalk to qualify as "outdoors". I don't know if this set up can function as effectively in a snow storm as indoors, but locally, restaurants and other services won't go away. Those that serve business districts I wonder about.

With all this gloomy narrative around the demise of our large, once-thriving cities, why the heck hasn't the stock market followed suit??? Except for the last few days, it has recovered almost everything that was lost in March when it dipped waaaaay down. But the V-Shape climb back to nearly record levels baffles me when all you hear is how this virus has destroyed so of the small business world.

At best people will come back to the office (only when a vaccine is safe and reliable and readily available) but the culture of 5 or even 4 days a week in the office will be over. Some will WFH permanently and some will institute a hybrid model.

I know my co-workers are talking about only being in the office max 2 days a week once the pandemic is over.

Why is the Dow nearly back to its peak? Easy. Mnuchin and the Fed have been propping it up for the election. I expect it'll all come crashing down if/when Trumpito loses.

Speaking of European governments subsiding the arts and comedy, see what I did here?

R224

You are forgetting that lone among all states New York has a constitutional mandate to "care for the poor". This trickles down to local governments and has been expanded to include housing as a "right". Hence all that spending on social programs.

Rudy G. and Mike Bloomberg did their best to cut social spending, and their administrations were hauled into courts time and time again by social justice warriors, and advocates for the poor.

Stock markets haven't reflected actual US economy in decades....

Then consider since 2008 recession Federal Reserve has pumped trillions into equity markets, basically propping up banks, the Dow, etc...

Inflation has been nil to zero for over a decade, and nothing on horizon seems to indicate it is going to return anywhere near even 2% anytime soon.

R202 .. what in the hell kind of fuzzy math gives they BS?? Chicago is a shit hole. Don’t get the appeal

Furthermore if you examine who makes up S&P 500 nowadays as opposed to say 1960's and you'll find a vastly different world.

The top five companies in S&P 500 are Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, Alphabet and Facebook ; unlike GM, IBM, Ford Motor Company, etc.. the former do not manufacture anything.

Here is Fortune 500 listing of companies from 1970; care to guess how many of the top ten are still on that list today?

Yet another economic shoe falls....

Metropolitan Opera's musicians have been out of work for nearly six months with no pay; now one-third are packing up and moving out of NYC because they can no longer afford to remain.

Tons of places for New Yorkers to go wheee they can get a job and be more financially comfortable. But they’re too good for that....

Things aren't going to open up until July. Because that's when "google" and the other tech firms opens their offices up again - as in employees will be going back to in-office working. When the tech companies get back to the office, that's when other businesses/offices will return. It has to do with businesses NOT wanting to lose their own tech employees by telling them to go back to the office early. Right now they can't bring in anymore through the VISA program due to COVID, so the tech companies are running the show. IE: Bloomberg will open up when google opens up etc. Thats the time frame. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this in this thread - don't you guys live or work in NYC, or have friends/business contacts that do? Everyone knows this is the plan.

Google and other tech firms along with whoever already have begun bringing back decent enough numbers of employees. Key word here is "voluntary", in that many places aren't telling people to return back or else. Nor will any employer make such a move long no state or federal law gives them some sort of immunity against employee liability for covid-19.

JP Morgan began ordering people back "or else", then workers started testing positive for covid-19... things soon changed.

You are most definitely a Trumpkin R223. You type fat, entitled, and stupid.

No one is going to work in NY offices until a WORKING Covid vaccine is available. PERIOD.

It’s more than that for the singers R235. About half. And they won’t return.

Turns out that a ‘service economy’ actually means a servant economy, and servants need to get paid. The middle class left Manhattan decades ago.

[quote] I happen to believe Chirlaine is a criminal and has the look of a moron. Nobody voted for her and she has no business running anything, especially a mental health initiative which she knows nothing about.

I happen to believe you're an idiot who uses your own feelings, and not evidence, to make opinions.

You may believe Chirlane is a criminal but that doesn't make her so. In fact, no body that is charged with evaluating programs has found much wrongdoing at all. You would do yourself a big favor by reading other articles rather than the ones in the NY Post.

No, no one voted for her, but no one votes for anyone who runs programs. DeBlasio won the mayorship twice and he gets to choose who runs programs. No a single person who runs ANY of the programs in ANY administration has been directly elected.

What's worrisome is your reflexive belief that Maya Wiley is somehow corrupt. Your throwing out words like "She corrupt" without a single piece of evidence makes your views untrustworthy.

You just come across as a partisan to be ignored.

[quote] I happen to believe Chirlaine is a criminal and has the look of a moron.

Hmm--not use exactly a moron looks like. I would assume, with a lifetime of looking the mirror, you are well acquainted with the features.

[quote] NYC spends ridiculous amounts of money on programs that get us no where. Endless free housing, SNAP, Medicaid for generations and generations. Some are truly poor (still not right for someone to rely on these programs for life unless they are disabled) and cheat the system (e.g. Hasidic Jews). Reading that European cities subsidize theater is amazing. NYC caters to the least common denominator. We need an overhaul. I hope taxes stay stable or go down and the dead weight leave.

What do you mean "get us nowhere"? It gets poor people housing, food, healthcare. In a country that refuses to increase the minimum wage, there are people who require these necessities, even while working. The world blames people for being poor when it's more often society keeping these people in the cycle but sticking them in places where schooling is poor, pollution is high, choices are few.

The irony of your statement about European countries given theatres subsidies is hilarious. European countries give theatre subsidies AND gives housing, food, and healthcare benefits to its poor.

All that abandoned, un-money-laundered commercial real estate, sitting there empty.

Almost brings a tear to your eye.

Almost.

The GOP doesn't want blue states to get bailout money so has purposely been dragging its feet.

The point of govt is to help people when times are tough. Well, times are tough, mainly because of the piss poor handling of this by the Fed govt, yet it won't help the economy going---so here we are.

The Met Opera was already in deep financial trouble well before Covid, R235. The Met has relied on a small number of very wealthy donors to prop it up. Those donors have died, and the new generation of rich people (tech types) are not interested in opera.

About 5 years ago, I attended the annual Christmas dinner/gala at the Cloisters. Only members who have higher level of membership get invited to attend, and it cost around $600. I was 40 at the time and was sat at the "young adults" table. About 1/3 of these "young adults" worked for the Cloisters/Met and were asking us how to get more "younger" people to join and attend museum events and give money. I know very few younger people who have a strong interest in medieval art and had no answers.

[quote] The Met Opera was already in deep financial trouble well before Covid, [R235]. The Met has relied on a small number of very wealthy donors to prop it up. Those donors have died, and the new generation of rich people (tech types) are not interested in opera.

As an opera lover, I'm still shocked that the MET has done little to attract a younger audience. Sure, there's an opera here or there that will bring in masses of young people but the average age of the audience generally seems about 60.

Plus, the auditorium is just too big--4000 seats! It's just not a good experience for 50% of the seats because they are so far away.

Considering there isn't much of an opera audience being developed, it would be nice to go to a much smaller house.

[quote] Metropolitan Opera's musicians have been out of work for nearly six months with no pay; now one-third are packing up and moving out

They could always learn coding.

R241

Don't understand why those musicians and orchestra weren't getting at least unemployment. It might not have equaled total normal monthly income but NYS benefits plus that $600 per week was pretty generous.

If they qualifed for highest NYS UI benefit that would be around $500/wk, add $600/wk and you have $1,100 per week for March through end of July. They also would have received LWA payments of $300/wk for six weeks.

Meanwhile over at Kennedy Center (who received $25 million in federal bailout money just before covid-19 hit), also laid off their orchestra and other workers.

Speaking of Europe and performing arts, at least France, Germany and some other continental nations did right by cultural groups affected. Great Britain OTOH much like USA basically left people on their own...

In France unemployed performing artists are getting UI until summer of 2021.

R249

It's never going to happen; NYCO tried to get a new opera house at the former Red Cross property on Amsterdam Avenue and it didn't happen either. Many reasons sunk that scheme but in particular strong objections from MET opera who did not welcome a new modern house for their rival.

If it wasn't for Robert Moses, eminent domain, and urban renewal Lincoln Center campus wouldn't have been built in first place. Those days are long gone as no politician in NY or Washington has the belly to fight for taking any large parcel of land in Manhattan to create anything, much less new performing arts space.

New York State theater, MET opera house, etc.. all are huge barns of places built during post-war era when there were still huge audiences (of wealthy and even middle/working classes) who attended performances. Those audiences have largely died and or are dying off, and there isn't anything remotely in future demographics indicating things will ever return to previous levels of attendance.

Only option would be to shut down the MET and or other theaters, tear them down and build new modern (smaller) houses. That would cost tens if not hundreds of billions just for one theater alone, so don't see that happening either.

Good one R250

City plans to put more homeless shelters in HK, and the girls aren't having any of it......

R249 - The Met and every other large cultural institution has been bringing "art" into the schools, and students to the arts with free museum tours, free tickets to dress rehearsals and matinees, for decades. It's been decades since they could expect any government funding without those programmes (the same is true for Arts Council funding in England).

And yet, the numbers of attendance at live performances, concerts, and exhibitions in America (according to the NEA web site) continues to fall. Price is one factor; the pervasive culture of self-referentiality, instant grasp, and shorter attention spans is another.

The Met, like those other institutions (fill in the names: Met Museum, MOMA, ABT, NYCB . . .) have been busting their arses trying to cultivate younger audiences for the last 25 years. It hasn't worked.

Just google what happened to the Brooklyn Museum of Art when it went "populist" to try to get the surrounding population of mostly low-income kids to come in. Why else do you think the BMA is now selling off that Cranach and other pieces in its tremendous collection to stay alive?

I last went to the BMA on a visit to NYC to see a wonderful Sargent exhibition several years go. It was gorgeous day in April six years ago. The Park and the Museum were packed - with middle- and upper-class white people.

And yet, the BMA is still in trouble.

If anyone is being honest, opera particularly is an acquired taste difficult to acquire later in life. It was always a self-selected smaller group. The houses ARE too big, the prices too high to attract younger, newer audiences.

I lived in Santa Fe, NM, as noted elsewhere, for several years on an academic grant. The Georgia O'Keeffe Museum has been trying, also for 20 years, to bring in the population from Airport Road and Espanola, with those same school tours and its very worthy Arts Education programme.

It's still isn't working. The audience for the GOKM remains middle-aged white people, especially women, who revere O'Keeffe as a "feminist icon". The families on Airport Road and in other parts of the city that aren't living on Museum Hill, don't go to museums on Sunday. They go to church, out to lunch with the rest of the family, etc. I encountered perfectly lovely ordinary Hispanic families who would no more think of heading to the Plaza area to go to the GOKM on a weekend then flying off to Siberia.

But they'd taken their grandchildren to Disneyland at least three times.

And that's what these institutions are grappling with.

Now that royalty and monarchy are not the norm, the state needs to be the patron for high art. It cannot be expected to be popular or easy listenin' or viewin'.

R257 - The State in Europe has acted as exactly that patron. You don't think that the German government would allow to happen to the Berlin Phil what happened to the Philadelphia Orchestra, do you?

There has been a stronger sense of responsibility by the State toward "high art" in Europe. In America, it was the rich philanthropists who underwrote it. In Henry James' "The Golden Bowl", it is the self-made millionaire who leaves Europe to return to the coal-fields he rose from to endow and art museum so the plebs could have access to high art.

But in both America and Europe, up until the 1970s or so, the prevailing view was that a great nation deserved great art and that's why funding was abundant in both places.

Then there was a shift toward "art with a social and political purpose" (what does it actually DO?) came in, in America, and the cultural institutions, instead of standing their ground and asserting that great art doesn't need a job and isn't responsible for righting the wrongs of society and the failures of government, were so afraid of losing what state funding they had, that they scrambled to put together programming that appealed to the increasing pressure to demonstrate that art has to "do something".

This trend began catching up in Britain much later. But it wreaked havoc in America, where institutions seeking funding more or less agreed to the erosion of the idea of the importance of art for its own sake, for the sake of state funding.

And that's where we are now and that's why saying the State should take over is a double-edged sword. The State, at least in America, won't take over unless it gets something else out of it that is politically useful to it. It comes with conditions, you see. You have to remember the NEA and NEH are taxpayer funded entities.

The German government has supported the Berlin Philharmonic not because it "reaches out to under-served populations" [that's the grant lingo], but because it is a national treasure occupying a mighty and revered peak in the world of classical music. It honours Germany itself and demonstrates its level of culture.

American musical institutions are, unfortunately, no longer viewed that way. Americans don't value those institutions as, until recently at least, Europe did.

Yes opera is pretty much dead. So are museums--but at least NYC has millions of residents and attracts millions of tourists.

But the younger generations don't have any connection to either so I see much of NYC's cultural attractions dying.

Wow this thread is sort of freaking me out! I think things like opera, and fine art, classical music viewed through today’s lens or cancel culture and “centering around whiteness”, applying today’s standards to the past seems to cast derision on much of what once we found valuable. It’s almost like the Right can get what they want with the Left who will help to decimate the arts by deeming it racist, classist,,sexist etc. we are pushing forth to a brave new world.

R260, huh?

Derision isn't cast on these because they apparently center on whiteness, it's that they haven't and wont reach today's youth. They are relics of the past.

People who go to the opera in the US has always reveled in it being exclusive--but that exclusivity made it lose touch with the those who would make up the next generation of audience members.

The young have almost infinite entertainment on their cell phones now. Why bother going for a 3 hours show of people hollering at you?

R251 I had a friend who worked at David Segal's violin shop on the UWS, and sometimes I would go by to visit - I needed to upgrade my violin and a member of the Met Opera orchestra tried out a number of violins in my (low) price range to help me choose. My friend told me that other orchestra members didn't like his violin (too cheap) and he was encouraged to buy a violin that was $75,000 (typical price for a top orchestra violin). Now it was partially subsidized by the Met and he got a no interest loan from them. But still - a huge cost for top level orchestra members.

A few top players get string instruments loaned to them (by rich donors or from arts organizations, but most have to pay at least partially for these instruments and this is a huge cost for the musicians.

Average salaries are $140,000 - $150,000/year so they are receiving 1/4 of their usual income, and if you are paying of an instrument loan, that $3000/month won't go so far.

R261 - They aren't "relics of the past". Great art is great art whether it was born 500 years ago or 50 years ago or 5 years ago - it's like saying there's no reason to look at Velasquez or Da Vinci because they're the past.

It's that the cultural zeitgiest is now laziness, self-referentiality, and short attention spans. Anything that takes a bit of work to understand or get to know that doesn't take hold of the imagination instantly is too much trouble.

And ffs cut the crap about opera and exclusivity. Lots of people who went to the opera in America, went because they loved the music. The Met of the 1940s and 1950s was packed with people in cheap seats and Standing Room, faithful patrons. My friends born and raised in New York City remember climbing the notorious steep steps of Carnegie Hall up to the cheap seats at the top of the house because their parents took them there as kids because they wanted them to have those experiences young.

What is it with you people always reducing everyone and everything to some idiot stereotype?! You act as if everyone in the house was seated in the front rows and boxes! Who do you think was sitting up there with the pigeons and in the Standing Room areas?!

Jesus.

R258 you are correct. I lived through that and was a participant. Too depressed to write a proper response. But thank you.

R264 - It's baby out with bathwater syndrome, and, I agree it is terribly depressing.

R260

[quote] They aren't "relics of the past". Great art is great art whether it was born 500 years ago or 50 years ago or 5 years ago - it's like saying there's no reason to look at Velasquez or Da Vinci because they're the past. It's that the cultural zeitgiest is now laziness, self-referentiality, and short attention spans.

The popular culture has changed. While, yes these are works of genius, they are not works modern youth relate to much anymore.

It's not laziness; it's lack of exposure. Is your lack of understanding of Han Dynasty Chinese sculptures laziness or lack of exposure? It's the sames with millennials and opera/fine arts. It's not their fault the arts have been ripped from their school curricula. Their parents don't even understand--and all of this has to be cultivated.

What's really interesting is the number of openings this creates in the arts and music fields after 2021. Anyone who can't wait a year for their orchestra or theater job to come back will leave. That means weaker unions and less work, but more space for younger workers or those who are just new to the industries in 2021. For example, a lawyer or executive who hates his job could switch to an arts admin role in less than a year.

That's not very interesting at all ^.

R266 - Han Dynaste Chinese sculptures aren't my culture: Mozart, ballet, and Van Gogh, are. They are European and easily accessible in theatres and museums everywhere.

You've missed the point: the schools and these institutions have been working their arses off for decades, partly because their state funding depends upon it, to "expose" each generation of schoolchildren to the arts.

You've, again, forgotten all about those Arts Education programmes that every major American and British cultural institution has been engaging in for the last 30 years. You can't get Arts Council (in England) or NEA (America) funding without it. You can't even get funding from non-state institutions, e.g., the Henry Luce or Mellon or Carnegie or Rockefeller or Ford foundatons for the arts without it.

"How does this project reach out to underserved populations?" It's on every bloody arts grant application in the fucking West.

It hasn't worked. And it hasn't worked because the surrounding culture has nurtured ever shorter attention spans and extreme self-referentiality, and exchanged flash for depth and substance. Did you ever SEE footage from Leonard Bernstein's famous concerts for young people and the marvellous job those concerts did explaining the basics???!!!

Exposure has been the name of the funding game since the late 1970s. And, yet, with every passing decade it becomes clearer that you can't detach them from their phones, YouTube, the telly, the cinema . . .

It is culture, not exposure. The Met, the Royal Opera, ABT, NYCB, the NY Phil, the Cleveland, the Philadelphia, the LSO, the BSO, the Royal Ballet, Ballet North . . . they've been dragging kids into dress rehearsals, demos, free concerts, for years.

The intended audience isn't buying it. It's culture, a goodly part of it, I am sorry to insist, is the West's decline into intellectual apathy and laziness.

The question is which group of people will come in and take over? The Russians (like in London), Middle Eastern princes, the Japanese (like in the 1980s) or some other wealthy foreigners?

Chinese

R269, they claim they are doing a lot of exposure but the truth is it’s a sprinkling here or there. Plus you need more than exposure to school kids with field trips, you have to splash it all over media.

The culture has changed. Hollywood makes trillions without mentioning opera or DaVinci, who why bother? Even Broadway has become the Las Vegas of the East to cater to lowest tourist common denominator.

Yes, the culture has changed but so has true exposure. That’s said, why you say that Han sculptures are not your culture so you don’t know about them, lots of minorities feel the same about the contents of the MET. Just because we live in America doesn’t mean we have to know every detail of European cultures.

[Quote] It is culture, not exposure. The Met, the Royal Opera, ABT, NYCB, the NY Phil, the Cleveland, the Philadelphia, the LSO, the BSO, the Royal Ballet, Ballet North . . . they've been dragging kids into dress rehearsals, demos, free concerts, for years

And most have always found it a absolute bore. Now, it’s just faster to get a thrill from a 90 second TikTok video than to sit through a three hour opera

Would someone ring me when they start selling off the artwork in The Metropolitan? I have my eye on a few pieces. TIA!

Forcing children to the opera will turn them off to the arts faster than anything. You might get one little boy or girl to be interested, but the rest will avoid all forms of performing arts after " enduring" the opera.

[quote]Forcing children to the opera will turn them off to the arts faster than anything. You might get one little boy or girl to be interested, but the rest will avoid all forms of performing arts after " enduring" the opera.

Opera worked in the days when children had to sit through Catholic mass said in Latin. But today's children don't want to sit through something sung entirely in a foreign language.

I think the Brits have it right with Christmas pantomimes. A campy show that allows children to interact with what's going on onstage.

[Quote] Now, it’s just faster to get a thrill from a 90 second TikTok video than to sit through a three hour opera

Try Liberace. You might like him. He plays speeded up classical, with the boring parts cut out as he used to say.

Fuck Liberace.

Conducting in Boston.

I think some young people will still "discover" the arts and cherish them, but probably not enough. And, one-time or two-time exposure via school is a good entry point, but kids really have to be around adults and groups of people who value the arts and expose them repeatedly. Even then, it's far from a sure thing that a kid will develop an affinity and love for the arts - but there's a better chance.

I wonder if people will eventually get sick of their phones because it's not novel anymore and they'll want "real world" experiences just because they'll seem fresh. I'm guessing not.

[quote] I wonder if people will eventually get sick of their phones because it's not novel anymore and they'll want "real world" experiences just because they'll seem fresh.

That's why they are moving into VR

Those arts education programmes add huge budget lines to cultural institutions that could be spent on acquisitions, expanded concert seasons, and new productions. I've written those grants in my time.

The comment about just a "sprinkling" of exposure supports my point: the arts institutions are being asked to do a job that really isn't their job. That's why the old "a great nation deserves great art" approach was a far better one.

You do the nation a disservice by NOT stewarding great art and making it available to those who are interested, and then you let the population sort itself out. It was always a self-selected population, but at least funders knew that that was part of the picture and cities and nations still should steward the art and make it available to those who cared.

The idea that the Met Museum or the National Gallery or American Ballet Theatre or the Royal Opera House or the Chicago Symphony are there to act as culture parents and spend exorbitant amounts of time, staffing, and funds to coax, beg, and plead their case to a population amongst which 95% would never be interested, anyway, is the root of the problem.

You fund the arts because they mark out a civilisation that did something besides plunder, sprawl, go to war, and kick balls across fields. It's the funders I'm angry at.

Today, the orchestra seeking support for its new season can't get funded unless it can demonstrate why exposure to the Jupiter Symphony will enrich a 14 year old's life, broaden his perspective, and help raise his "core" skills of critical thinking and literacy.

Yes: I kid you not. I've written those grants and had to use those phrases. Cultural institutions supported all kinds of studies that, surprise, showed that "involvement with art" raised students' critical thinking, problem-solving, and literacy skills. There were holes big enough to drive lorries through in those studies, but they're quoted all the time in grants.

Then, of course, the grantees have to figure out some sort of "metrics" to demonstrate the beneficial impact of "the arts" on the young, which ignores the glaring fact that one of art's fundamental attractions is that it isn't measurable.

"Metrics" was the other big word that came into the philanthropic sector 20 or so years ago.

God forbid music and art institutions should get funding because they are stewarding the best that humanity has to give, and holds up a mirror that shows us for once something besides a species relentlessly cruel, stupid, selfish, short-sighted, carnal, doomed to live a short life and die. I mean, really, why fund that?!

Art may indeed broaden perspectives, enrich lives, and even raise one or two kids' core academic skills occasionally - BUT THAT ISN'T WHY GREAT ART EXISTS.

Trying to discover a practical "purpose" for art undermines the very quality that is its central attraction: it is unseizable, and magical precisely because of its defiant unseizability. It comes out of a cauldron, not a nicely wrapped Cadbury's Easter Egg Assortment box. In fact, Mozart's work, like that of so many other of the giants of art in all forms, are amongst the most subversive things in the world.

I'm sorry to rant on about this, but it broke my heart to see one of the most mysterious and subversive and precious things we have finally also commandeered by the Commentariat and the sociopolitical agenda-driven elites, and it enrages me that the arts institutions, instead of putting up a fight for art's right to exist in and of itself, let them do it.

It's more than just a surrounding culture of short attention spans and self-referentiality - If the fucking Arts Council in England and the NEA in America don't revere art and fund art for its own sake, why expect the hoi polloi to feel differently?

As above so below. The fish rots from the head down.