Americanized Ethnic/ Foreign Foods

California Roll came from Toronto Canada.

I love Italian pizza, but I also love American pizza.

R2 I love Italian pizza for the simplicity of ingredients that are balanced flavor-wise. But I also love American pizza but only to a point when excesses such as stuffed cheese crust and over-abundance of toppings become too much for the taste buds to process. All the different toppings jostling for prominence, any pizza with more than 4 toppings is too much.

Guess what, OP?

This is common all over the world.

People try a foreign food & then adapt it to their culture’s with local spices & vegetables.

It's cultural appropriation.

OP, if you think English muffins aren’t from England, you’re very much mistaken.

English muffins are not from England, it originated in the U.S. but made by an English baker.

Example of what R4 describes: yoshoku, Japanese versions of Western food. Examples like tonkatsu date back to the 19th century.

It's possible - even common - to like both authentic foreign foods and the Americanized version. For me, the best example is Mexican. I like authentic Mexican cooking. I like Tex-Mex and California Mexican as well. They're all in the same taste family but are still distinct enough to be different, and they both taste good when well prepared.

fajitas - I love them.

Nachos were invented by a Mexican for American tourists. They caught on in the U.S. long before they did in Mexico. Mexican nachos are gas station canned cheese nachos, by the way.

I’ve also heard that Chicken/Veal Parmigiana is an American invention and nonexistent in Italy.

The hamburger. The taco. The pizza pie. The fried chicken. The list goes on and on.

OP/R7, there’s nothing in the article you link to that suggests English muffins originated in the USA. I guess that the baker you’re referring to was Samuel Bath Thomas, though you fail to provide even a name to back up your claim. But he didn't even arrive in NYC until the 1870s. Muffins, however, are recorded in England much earlier: e.g. in the letters of naturalist John Ray FRS, who died in 1705. Or in the poem “The Black Bird and the Bull-Finch," 1777: “ Hark! the shrill Muffin-Man his Carol plies”. Or even, apparently, in the UK Parliament passing a law to ban muffin-men ringing their bells constantly, in the 1840s.

It would be very clever of politicians in one country to pass a law about something, 30 or more years before that ‘something’ was (or so you claim) invented in another country. I’ll happily accept that muffins - as in oversized cupcakes - are an American thing. English muffins, no.

Casserole has a french name but there is no comparable type of dish France. Casseroles in France are loose stews that don't use eggs and cream as a binder.

I was never so disappointed in food as I was when I went to Italy the first time. Of course we were tourists. We didn't speak Italian. So we went to all the tourist spots. In ROme we saw all the things you see in Rome. Venice, Florence, Milan, etc. And the food was commercialized American versions of Italian food. It wasn't until we went to places like Asissi and Perugia and San Gimignano and Sienna that we started to see real food. One of the tour operators finally told us, "Stay away from the tourist spot. Go eat where the Italians eat." This was 20 yrs ago. I was young and clueless at 27, but it was a lesson learned. From that point on,whenever I travel to a foreign country I avoid tourist restaurants and eat where the locals eat.

I think all of these schnitzel variations like Veal Parmagiana and Chicken fried steak are from German immigrants interacting with other ethnicities in the U.S.

Chicken Marsala, for instance, was invented in the U.S. and is unknown in Italy. Weirdly, it seems to be huge in Ireland. We had an Irish customer at a place I used to work at who would come in every time we had Chicken Marsala as a special and would rave about it. A friend of mine's Mom has her special Chicken Marsala recipe she brought from Ireland.

I think all of these schnitzel variations like Veal Parmagiana and Chicken fried steak are from German immigrants interacting with other ethnicities in the U.S.

Chicken Marsala, for instance, was invented in the U.S. and is unknown in Italy. Weirdly, it seems to be huge in Ireland. We had an Irish customer at a place I used to work at who would come in every time we had Chicken Marsala as a special and would rave about it. A friend of mine's Mom has her special Chicken Marsala recipe she brought from Ireland.

[quote] Of course we were tourists. We didn't speak Italian. So we went to all the tourist spots.

that's your problem right there. Italy INVENTED tourist traps.

NY pizza, Chicago Deep Dish, Taco Bell, and CFS.

Deep dish pizza is a mismomer as it is not pizza but casserole. Cheesy casserole baked into bread.

Deep dish pizza is tomato & cheese quiche.

Deep dish pizza is nasty AF. Only NYC pizza is pizza.

This cerebration of cultural piracy and imperialism is disgusting.

I hate to add to the piss parade on Americans' idea of Italian cuisine, but tonight I just made for the first time Pasta Carbonara. It wasn't until researching and picking through recipes that I also read the idea that Carbonara was not brought here from Italy, but made here in the Italian style.

I think that in this modern age, it is entirely possible for a cuisine to find its way to America, be affected, return to its country of origin and affect that country's food. Or even more obvious, a chef from a foreign country come to America to study and learn, and return home, affecting the direction of that chef's own national cuisine.

It can slo work the other way. American chefs going abroad, learning about new flavors, ingredients and preparations that are easily transferred to existing American foods. That's how we get truffle fries, chipotle burgers, Shakshuka with meats, and yes, even Chicken Parm.

I will confess I am a bit shook to think Pork Tonkatsu is a bastardized Japanese dish. I spent 4 days in Tokyo with my Dad trying to help him find it on a restaurant menu. We had lived in Japan 20 years prior to that and he always found it easily outside the gates of the AF Base. Perhaps it makes sense now.

R25 I lived in Yokohama and taught English there, and would say even the Tonkatsu sauce served with the pork cutlet seemed thoroughly "Japanese" to me. I think of Tonkatsu as traditional bachelor food, or home cooking; something simple, rather than "nice" restaurant fare. Perhaps that's why it was rather hard to come by in Tokyo. Were you looking for it in very nice places?

It does belong to a class or category of traditional food made in imitation of European cuisine, or Yōshoku, much of this fare like Schnitzel inspired fried foods goes back to the Nineteenth century, so should be considered Japanese by now.

Japanese people told me it's often packed as a sort of "trencherman"'s lunch for more working-class types. I don't think of it as American really, just something you don't always see on menus, such as Barley Tea, Norimaki mochi, Isobeyaki, or Atsuage.

There were a string of little Japanese places very popular with Japanese tourists in New York on East 41st Street between Fifth and Madison that had all sorts of fascinating Japanese takes on American and French sandwiches and pastries, mostly made with rice flour. They were inexpensive and delicious and usually looked beautiful too.

Tex-Mex is not a variant of Mexican cuisine per se. It is a German-American colonial interpretation of native Meso-american dishes.

Chop suey! Chop suey! Living here is very much like chop suey!

It's Britishized, not Americanized, but chicken tikka masala's a classic one. I think it's now served in India, but it's of Anglo-Indian origin.

Wikipedia notes the origin of English muffins as being Great Britain--Thomas, it notes, used his mother's muffin recipe to create "English muffins".

Schnitzel with noodles

R26 interesting... thanks for your comment. We lived in Misawa in the early 80's, and I think that's where he got the original taste for it. Though I know we found it in Tokyo back in the day when we'd go down for the weekend and stay at the Sanno (both Old and New).

The trip I mentioned occurred 8 years ago, and neither of us recognized anything we thought we knew of Tokyo from long ago. Like trying to find old haunts in NYC. Eventually we did find a noodle shop that also served Katsu underneath the railway tracks in Akihibara. But to answer your question, no we were not looking anywhere fancy from the very start.

That would be almost all American food.

R31 Perhaps it was on trend awhile back with the restaurant industry, but no longer eight years ago when you had visited. Yokohama is more provincial obviously, yet there are trends there as well. Ramen shops and Yakitori Grills seems to be all the rage at the moment, and last few years.

I do enjoy the Tonkatsu myself, and can see it being enjoyed cold in a bento box... A really dedicated wife would probably make the sauce herself. The homemade version is usually chunky with vegetables in it. I find Heinz 57 Sauce really reminds me of the bottled store bought version.

There are so many Japanese dishes I enjoyed eating there I never saw on offer in restaurants... Like my favourite cold noodles with the sesame dressing, and chunks of black crunchy seaweed.... I forget the type of seaweed, sometimes there was a sour plum garnish or dried sprinkle atop as well. It would be served in people's homes, especially after a night of drinking.... Like cold Ramen, not the Glass noodles... Could never find it in any eatery.

[Quote] That would be almost all American food.

That would be almost all food. Purity is the handmaiden of ignorance.

Many of the dished served in Chinese restaurants are American Chinese food not found in any Asian restaurant a recent edition is Singapore Mei Fun curried noodles with shrimp and roast port or chicken. You will never see this dish in Singapore. I have a friend who lives in Singapore who likes to come to the US and eat American Chinese food since it can't be found in Asia.

addition not edition^^

Jewish rye bread is neither Jewish nor rye bread. Discuss.

I don't have a problem with an authentic ethnic dish being re interpreted or re imagined or even with fusion cuisines that combine various element, etc. If it's good, and it's a high quality item so what.

My problem is with things that are represented as authentic and they are fake. Like anything else. If a woman pays $2,000 for an Hermes bag that's what she ought to get. But if she pays $2,000 and gets a knock off fake then she is pissed right? Same thing with food.

[quote]Chicken/Veal Parmigiana

Here's my theory about that:

I always thought eggplant parmigiano was a Neapolitan thing, and then with Italians from different regions came to America, the non-Neapolitans (or perhaps their children when they became adults) began making eggplant parm as a new thing (since other regions make eggplant differently). Over time, they subsequently adapted the concept of parmigiana to other foods like chicken and veal.

Thank you R9.

Taco Bell is white peoples idea of what Mexican food is supposed to taste like.

Some foods are universal. Dough-wrapped meat or cheese. Brothy soup, meaty stew. Porridge. Meat roasted on a stick. Unleavened bread. Noodles.

Every cuisine has a version.

Wow are you me r42. I was just thinking that today.

[quote] a recent edition is Singapore Mei Fun curried noodles with shrimp and roast port or chicken. You will never see this dish in Singapore

You won’t find pancakes on Barbara, either

On the other hand, I watched Viennese cooking show which stated that the schnitzel in Austria originated in Italy. Like flouring the escalop cut of meat originated in Italy.

Jennifer 8 Lee writes about the extent to which classic dishes in American Chinese restaurants are classically American. She includes the American origins of fortune cookies and the tradition of shoving pikes of photocopies of Chinese restaurant menus in city apartment building lobbies.

Also described are the interesting networks of employment in Chinese restaurants, with bulletin boards noting that a waiter is needed in Littleton, North Carolina or a cook in Dead Fork, Nebraska - which can quickly land an good aspirant on a prepaid bus trip and in a new job on the day he arrives in town.

R35 I always order Singapore noodles! I'm kind of proud they were made up here.

Aren’t Singapore noodles similar to pancit from the Philippines?

R45 Correct! We have a winner! Hence the terms Milanesa, or Milanese.

R48 Similar but not the same, various Asian cuisines have recipes using rice noodles.

English Muffins aren't very popular in the UK these days, they only ever have a few dozen packets on the shelves in even the largest stores and they tend to end up unsold and reduced (they are only 70c for four to start with). I presume that they still use them in hotels as an upmarket version of toast.

French baguettes, panini and naan bread are purchased much more often.

Koreans copy Japanese classics, and Japanese create their versions of Chinese classics, and so on... We have the Schnitzel like , German inspired Tonkatsu in Japan becoming the "Donnkkaseu" in contemporary Korean cuisine.

Another popular dish with many iterations is the Ma Po Tofu/ Mo Dofu dish.

^ and I failed to mention its Korean cousin: Mapadubu

Ma Po Doufu is something that I like to order but do admittedly get pissed off when it isn't made with hot bean paste and finished with Sichuan peppercorn.

Singapore noodles, the one made with rice noodles and curry poweder, originated in Hong Kong.

Vietnamese Banh Mi originated in the country but was inspired by French colonialism.

Originally Sichuan, yet enjoyed by Asian people around the globe. Disclaimer: no dog mince is used in the following dish.

German immigrants to Texas in the late 1800s brought schnitzel with them, but for whatever reason, veal slowly gave way to steak and hence the popularity of chicken fried steak in that region.

R57 They're also responsible for most of the sides served with Texas BBQ- and the raw onion, pickles, and toast it's always served with.

Sum Ting Won Ton is only found here.

I once had a discussion about Singapore rice noodles with a Singaporese--and, yes, they're not found in Singapore, but they are authentically Hong Kongese.

Americans aren't the only ones who culturally appropriate. All sorts of Vietnamese food is influenced by the French. Tempura was the Japanese take on fried Portuguese food--"Tempura" is a version of Portuguese for "Time" since they noticed that the Portuguese ate fish on Fridays.

The best breakfast I ever had in my life was in Tokyo at a counter diner near a subway stop. A Salisbury steak with gravy and melted cheese over rice with a fried egg and a side of miso soup. So good that my travel companions and I ate there three times in one week.

I loved Japanese food when I was stationed there...my favorite was curry shrimp or beef over a bed of impossibly fluffy rice. Also, gyoza. They are truly best made from scratch. And it seems that every culture does have a version of a dumpling.

Every culture also has its version of raw meat and rotting food.

Some of this thread reads like a reddit forum for the Oberlin student body.

Sushi is often made with mayonnaise and corn. In Japan. OP is an ignorant tryhard.

When I worked in Midtown some years back, there was a Japanese restaurant in the East 40s that served only Tonkatsu. It was very basic and great food, and was patronized mostly by Japanese. They would warn any western customers immediately upon entering that the restaurant didn't serve sushi, so there would be no misunderstanding once the party was seated.

Ironically, tonkatsu was invented in the 19th century as a type of Western cuisine. It's not just Americans who create variations of food from elsewhere. Everyone does it the world over.

R65, my Japanese friend loves mayonnaise. She had me try the Kewpie brand, which isn’t bad, but a bit sweet. It has its place, for certain things. She also puts corn in her ramen.

American here, of Italian/French descent. I absolutely love "Americanized" Chinese food - it's cooked to order with plenty of stir fried fresh vegetables, and the portions are super generous.

[quote]Taco Bell is white peoples idea of what Mexican food is supposed to taste like.

You learn something new every day.

Americanized Ethnic Foreign Foods are belong to us

R69, sometimes I get a craving for chicken chow mein, which was a staple of the Chinese-American cuisine of my childhood. The portion is vast, and it's served on an equally vast portion of rice, with plenty of soy sauce. With a side of dumplings or ribs, it makes a winter weekend treat for me about once a year.

R72 Why would chicken chow mein be served with rice?

It's the the equivalent to ordering spaghetti and meatballs and serving them on top of polenta

Here's what the Japanese do with an avocado. Doesn't look great to me.

R74 Anything that's been grilled tastes wonderful! I've gotta try this.

R74 There is an Italian inspired variation called Grilled Avocado Caprese.

R64 Are you calling Oberlin students fat? Sizeist as fuck.

I'm kind of confused why mayonnaise is the official food of white Americans, because most ethnicities like it more. White Americans often won't eat it. Asians and Mexicans dump it on everything, black Americans use it as a binder and put it in cake.

Just something I've noticed.

White people's condiment really ought to be mustard since white people go nuts for it and most other races don't eat it at all.

[quote]Anything that's been grilled tastes wonderful! I've gotta try this.

Not avocado R75, and esp not when you put soy sauce on it!

I think, just like the Japanpanne have a problem with multi culturalism, they just can't imagine food tasting different than soy sauce. You can get decent, even authentic Chinese, Italian, French, Mexican, Moroccan food anywhere in big Western cities, but you just can't get good Western food in Asia.

Asians are less likely to adapt to different cultures.

R79 Why is it worse than putting balsamic vinegar on an avocado like the Italians do? If you read the recipe it is only one ingredient in the mix. I guess you haven't been to any restaurants in Europe or major American cities where chefs are mixing Eastern and western ingredients and cooking techniques.

That's not it R80. My point is that the Japanese can't do anything with an unknown fruit than putting the standard soy sauce on it. That's not mixing or adapting. Also grilling an avocado is like eating raw potatoes.

R81 I loathe soy sauce so can see your point. But The Japan was an isolationist Country for 214 years (Sakoku) until the mid 19th century (mainly to keep the British out). During the 20th Century they were either ignored or hated, they have isolated themselves again during the current Covid19 pandemic.

They really don't have much idea of Western food or society, Island Nations can have really fucked up concepts of how everything is in the wider World.

That's a good question, R73. It was just always served with rice in the local Chinese restaurant where I grew up. Everything was served with rice. Even fried rice was served with rice. Just kidding ... but everything else was. People expected to get rice in Chinese restaurants in those days, even if their main dish included noodles or other starch.

And, anyway, you'd eat mashed potatoes with a meat pie, wouldn't you? Why have just one starch when you can have two?

Finally, spaghetti and meatballs on polenta sounds good.

I love the Japanese take on curry. The 'curry' sauce I tried was mostly turmeric and pepper for spice, miso paste and pear juice for the liquid with some vegetables and blended to a silky texture. It shouldn't work, yet there's something so inoffensive and clean tasting about it, it's hard not like it. They also use this sauce as a topping for panko-crumbed meat or fish.

R84 Japanese curries are my favourite. Even the boxed curry bases are excellent. (like chocolate bars you break up into your own stews). R79 You would be surprised how many authentic french desserts and patries are available in Japan. It was something I hadn't really expected. Other things often seemed a bit off though.

^ pastries

The Paris Baguette chain of pastry shops that are popping up around the US is actually a South Korean company..

R87 That doesn't actually surprise me at all.

The company that runs Asian Chao also runs a Cajun themed chain of restaurants (I can't think of the name right now). Anyhow, Asian Chao's "Bourbon Chicken" doesn't actually contain bourbon, supposedly it's named after Bourbon Street in Louisiana. I believe their Cajun restaurants also sell it.

Hey guys, if you like tonkatsu sauce & have trouble finding it, try A-1 steak sauce. IMO, almost interchangeable.

How Milanese is Chicken Milanese?

[quote] Americans aren't the only ones who culturally appropriate. All sorts of Vietnamese food is influenced by the French.

The Vietnamese were colonized by the French for several decades. I'm going to give them a pass for "cultural appropriation."

[quote] My point is that the Japanese can't do anything with an unknown fruit than putting the standard soy sauce on it. That's not mixing or adapting. Also grilling an avocado is like eating raw potatoes.

Lived in Japan and never did eat or see soy sauce on any type of fruit.

Disagree that grilling an avocado is like eating raw potatoes. Do I want to eat a grilled avocado? No. I prefer it cold or room temp.

R90, interesting. I've never had actual tonkatsu sauce, but wouldn't have guessed it to taste like A-1.

R94 I think much of it tasted closer to Heinz 57 myself, but there are different varieties. Perhaps only the kind popular in Yokohama tastes like 57?

Fettichini Alfredo, I love it! Basically a cream sauce with lots of Parmesan cheese cheese if it's made right. But it's unknown in Italy. However, there is some truth to it getting it's start there. The story goes that a restaurant in Rome named Alfredo's? Served a fettichini dish that was similar but it was only made with butter and cheese. No cream, no milk. It was discovered by some old school Hollywood celebs in the 40's I think. The restaurant is still there but only famous among foreigners. Real Italians will do their usual food snob thing and pretend they never even heard of such a thing.

[quote]How Milanese is Chicken Milanese?

Well, if you replace the chicken with veal then it's very Italian. The fried chicken cutlet that has found it's way into many cultures is a result of limited access to meat. But chicken being a lot more inexpensive and a abundant made a logical substitution. Hence, we got chicken Piccata, chicken Marsala, chicken Milanese etc. I believe even German Schnitzel was their interpretation of this Italian original, although they use pork.

Chinese Chicken Salad is not Chinese, who would have thought? And French Fries are not French, what is this world coming too. Next you are going to tell me Taco Bell is inauthentic!

Scotch egg isn’t Scottish & doesn’t have scotch in it.

R96 There is no truth to the Italian origin story. [1769] "To dress Macaroni with Parmesan Cheese Boil four ounces of macaroni till it be quite tender and lay it on a sieve to drain. Then put it in a tossing pan with about a gill of good cream, a lump of butter rolled in flour, boil it five minutes. Pour it on a plate, lay all over it parmesan cheese toasted. Send to to the table on a water plate, for it soon goes cold." ---The Experienced Engish Housekeeper, Elizabeth Raffald, introduction by Roy Shipperbottom [Southover Press:East Sussex] 1997 (p. 144)

Moscow Mules are not from Moscow.

You reference is incorrect R100. I don't care what book it came from. Pasta with butter and cheese has been made for hundreds of years in Italy before someone deiced to put it on a menu. Alfredo dose exist in Italy, just not with cream and only in one or two restaurants and was invented there. And by the way, they don't use macaroni!

So now we know where the "cream" in Alfredo sauces comes from that Italians find disgusting. Thanks Elizabeth Raffald.

Macaroni was the generic term and used to describe all shapes in England at the time.

Yes we know that r103. Cultural appropriation bastardized.

And dear idiot at R102 the reference is correct.

Generally I have been really lucky with my cats and scratching. One cat only scratches appropriate items. The other cat is there 90% but she has this thing for the left arm of the sofa. It's the only verboten item she scratches and after more than a decade, what's the point so now I don't even bother to stop her.

I love a wee dram of a McDonald’s Shamrock Shake every St Paddy’s Day.