I think Hamilton is just okay. Am I stupid?

[quote] I have a BFA degree in musical theater from a top school

You say that like it's a good thing, with some actual use or purpose.

r1- You'd think that'd be a good thing for evaluating the quality of a good musical.

It's over-rated, so no, you're not stupid. It's trendy and got a lot press, and it wouldn't have gotten as much without its gimmick of the way it was cast. Yes, there's some writing in it, though some of the words go by too fast for an audience to take it all in, and the cast (with the exception of LMM) are quite good. I thought "Rent" was way over-rated, too, though there were some good songs and performances in that, too. Of course, if its composer had lived, it wouldn't have gotten quite as much press either.

some "good" writing

My husband and I don’t like it either.

But, we’re eldergays in our 50s and don’t like rap.

Yes, you are.

[quote] I have a BFA degree in musical theater from a top school so I should be smart.

Trump University?

Having good taste is not a crime.

Overrated. I’ve listened to the soundtrack. It’s not my cup of tea.

I've seen it live twice and watched it on Disney...I still hate it. My husband loves it. I just don't get it. I've tried. It sounds dated and seems like a show fat girls like.

It's not about being smart or stupid and I don't know why you think it is. It's about taste.

Hamilton was too hyped for me to ever really enjoy it as what it was intended to be; all the "oh my GOD I just CRY SO HARD at this song!" comments have made me see pretty much everything about the show as Middle American camp.

And I agree with R10, it does sound dated, and I don't know why. Maybe it wasn't dated on release but has already aged poorly?

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one. You're welcome to your prolapsed opinion.

I did like In the Heights. Saw it on Broadway and it was enjoyable.

But I am so tired of hearing about this show, and I hate how this show became prohibitive pricing. $400 for a ticket. It was insane.

I watched it, bit of a drag to get through, though some fine performances, and later watched "Music Man" on tv that same day. "The Music Man" is a far superior show about Americana, values, with more effective speak-singing that you can understand nearly every word, and the songs are tuneful, memorable and brilliantly executed. Hard to understand a lot of what they are saying in the raps of "Hamilton" and if you can't get the words, they are not being effective to the points they are trying to make.

No. It’s overrated. Saw it twice and it’s a chore.

Rent and Hamilton are kinda novelty for NYC rich, old, fat farts. But if you ask me if they are entertaining or their songs are catchy, I would say no.

I didn't really enjoy it or most of the music. Other than "You'll be back". But I'll be honest I don't think its possible for me to give it a fair chance. AsI came across the demented fanbase long before I had chance to see the show.

By the time they were able to overpay for their tickets, it was almost incumbent on these audience members to hoot, holler and give standing ovations, so they convinced themselves before the show even began they were going to love it. How can it be overrated if it cost so much money? It can, and it is, even with all those awards. Same with "Rent". Both shows had some good numbers though and some excellent performances. "Hamilton" was staged well but with too much movement to cover up lots of exposition and off-stage action.

If you LOVE Rent, then yes, you’re stupid.

No, OP, you have good taste. “Hamilton” is gimmicky, overhyped, and it’s also kind of bad history in places. Hamilton was a manipulative, unethical scumbag. He was a genius too, but in the end, Burr gave him his just desserts.

too much exposition, doesn't pass the Bechdel test, and LMM needed a better rhyming dictionary.

r11- Exactly. I saw it live a few weeks before the original cast left and people were cheering like a madhouse when he started singing "I"m Not Throwing Away My Shot" and I thought why are people freaking out so much. It just started!

I thout Hamilton had some spectacular numbers in Act I, but the constant exposition gets exhausting by the second act, turning it into a long and dreary episode of Schoolhouse Rap.

Also, the rivalry between Hamilton and Burr seems forced and unconvincing, but that can be blamed on Lin-Manuel’s limits as an actor. He’s a great writer/composer, but his acting and “singing” are dreadful.

I agree about Lin-Manuel as an actor/singer. It's weird because everyone onstage is more talented and better looking than him. But he really hasn't had a stage career outside of the two roles he wrote for himself, right?

And wouldn't have.

I felt like I was in a high schiol field trip.

I haven't seen it but I know most things are overrated nowadays. You know what I like, and finally watched yesterday? I am Not Your Negro. Came away with a better sense of what Black people go thru and a firm belief that James Baldwin was a genius.

[quote]...(Lin-Manuel) really hasn't had a stage career outside of the two roles he wrote for himself, right?

Not really, but he miraculously got the lead in the Wesleyan production of Jesus Christ Superstar:

Not unlike when 1776 was foisted upon us unfortunate Bicentennial 8th graders.

Of course it is on the verge of being canceled now, due to its incorrect depiction of slave holding founders, as opposed to bring lauded six months ago.

Too many darkies singing songs about freedom. I likes darkies who make me laugh being afraid that the master gonna beat them. No girls showed their tits or clam either. Waste of time

'Rap' and 'musical theatre' go together like oil and water. Chalk and cheese. Swedes and Swazilanders. Aphids and elephants.

I didn't even try to like it. Something about L-LM's face puts me off (I think it's the beard), and living in a country where lots of popular music is German "rap" has put me off the genre forever (my 80s favorites excluded).

Haven't seen it, but have to believe it's been insanely overhyped.

DL Fave Rosie O supposedly has seen it more than 40 times, make of that what you will.

And Lin-Carmen Miranda, of course, cries all the way to the bank.

Some iconic musicals are just a matter of timing and the bloom is off the rose pretty quick.

I remember when RENT came out it was treated like it was this masterpiece of musical theatre. The end all be all of Broadway.

When you watch it now, it seems pretentious and juvenile.

It's enjoyable but it ain't all that.

Why does the logo for "Hamilton" have a guy on top of an anvil?

J’adore OP. She needn’t fear to be more strident in her convictions.

I liked it more than I expected, but have no need ever to see or listen to it again. It was worth 6.95 I paid for Fidney+.

Sorry, Disney+

It's great because it increases public interest in history and tells the history of the American Revolution in a new way. It's 100 times better than some boring Ken Burns documentary, military crap on the History channel, or Lucy Worsley. I don't really care for hip hop and don't have any interest in seeing the full show but I like that it excites students.

It’s not an anvil R36.

It’s a star with its top cut off and Hamilton in a triumphant pose on top of it.

[quote]I think Hamilton is just okay. Am I stupid?

The two are not mutually exclusive.

If you are having trouble understanding that, you have answered your own question.

I watched it on Disney channel. I didn't see what the big hype was about. I thought to myself, am I missing something. I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way. Won't be watching it again.

I had low expectations but actually enjoyed it quite a bit. It ran too long, and agreed with posters above that LMM is the weakest link in the cast (still good though).

I used closed captioning so I could read what I couldn’t understand.

[quote]LMM needed a better rhyming dictionary

There's some interview where he said someone gave him one, and then asks "do I look like I need a fucking rhyming dictionary?". Judging by the amount of assonance, yes.

It's pleasant enough.

It was NOVEL and I assume that is much of the reason for its recognition.

I had extremely low expectations — and I was not disappointed. A few decent numbers, but the rest was somewhat boring. I despise most rap music, so that likely influenced my disinclination to ever wanting to watch it. But, it was the last night at the beach and storming out, so a friend and I decided, what the hell. Because I knew it would be mostly unintelligible, I followed along with the script for much of the first act. Then I gave up. Two hours and forty minutes can drag when a lot of the music sounds the same. Wayyyyyy overrated? Like Rent, oh, yeah.

It’s awful. It’s an awful show. I couldn’t possibly sit through the whole thing.

I got Disney + just to see this for the first time (and original cast. I liked it but didn’t love it.

I expected to hate it but I didn’t. I liked it fine. That’s about the most I can say about it. It was fine and good.

But "rap" is monotonous rhythm without melody.

How can it sustain interest over 3 hours?

Give me Oklahoma or South Pacific any day.

Once a Broadway show gets skyrocketing hype, it can take decades for most people to see it clearly for what it really is.

Cats spent many decades viewed as almost a universal success and is only now being seen as the weak piece of art that it truly is.

I haven't been able to see it--couldn't get tickets, don't have cable. But I've tried to watch the clips that are available, and I just don't get it. I find it borderline cringey and don't enjoy the songs at all. This surprised me, as a friend of mine saw it early in its run in NY, before I'd even heard of it, and absolutely raved about it; this is someone I almost always agree with on matters theatrical. So I assumed I would agree with the rave review.

R53 That's hardly true, Cats was certainly being mocked as a tacky tourist trap by the 90s, and I imagine much earlier. Forbidden Broadway was certainly poking fun at it by the mid 90s.

Sheesh r28 that is awful. No talent on display.

r54- it's not available on cable. Disney + is a streaming service. You could get it for $7.

For someone who likely shaves a few years off her real age, r55 is certainly being a stickler for the amount of years tonight.

The point is that we don't know how Hamilton will be viewed a decade from now. Not even in a Forbidden Broadway show who's job is to make fun of every show.

But r55- Fordbidden Broadway pokes fun at every musical. And it's the finest form of flattery. That said, CATS was not uniformly considered a success for decades. More like 5 years and then it became a joke. Same with A Chorus Line too. I hear actors were eventually too embarrassed to put it on their resume.

Forbidden

R58 Except you're shaving decades off, and it was ridiculous to say it's only now seen as a joke, when it's been a joke for decades.

And sure, R59, FB makes fun of all shows, but it bases the jokes in truth. And as it says, it was an embarrassment of a show and existed just because of tourists. That wasn't created out of nothing.

OP, you're crazy, I balled like a hormonal, sixteen year old.

Very rarely is anything that gets extreme amounts of hype worth watching. I haven't gotten around to watch Hamilton yet but I'm not expecting to be blown away. Though I think a lot of hype for certain things depends on whether you're in the target demographic for a piece of media or not.

For example look at the legions of straight dudes on twitter that tear down any big budget female lead film for being bad when these same dudes love and idolize equally mindless and meritless films targeted at them.

It was much better than Cats.

It was much better than Cats.

I cringed-watched through about the first 20 minutes but then I got into it. It’s entertaining enough. I’m glad I didn’t pay $400 to see it. But who knows, seeing it live might have been different.

*Spoiler*

Groff was a big reason I liked it. I have only seen him in the serial killer show but I didn’t know he was so talented. He is definitely husband material. Is he single?

I have no desire to see it.

I loathe the contrived Lin-Manuel Miranda with the heat of ten billion galaxies.

LMM comes across a dumb, non-Black person trying to be "cool" and show he can "rap" when really he is not a very good rapper. He's Latino but he's basically a white-bro trying to prove "he's down."

It's popular so "woke" white people can feel good and be like "look, I like the rap music too!" now.

I liked it more than I thought I would.

What people are saying here is how I feel about The Great Gatsby. I feel like I'm missing something there.

[quote]I balled like a hormonal, sixteen year old.

Oh dear.

It's brilliant. I'm pretty obsessed with it. Op, if you aren't in it from the first watch you won't be.

Thanks, R57. I really have no idea what Disney+ is and am not motivated enough to acquire anything with the name DIsney on it.

r51, it's not all rap. It's a variety of different musical styles and one is hip-hop

One of my favorite songs. Also Satisfied is amazing.

Satisfied...

This is such an amazingly staged scene

^ That label says 'explicit content'.

Is it sexy?

Here you can enjoy this song, and get a sense of one story line in the show. They have animations for most of the songs. You don't have to see LMM.

Satisfied is the best staged number in a Broadway musical since Hairspray’s Welcome to the 60’s in 2002.

And while I can get while people don’t necessarily like the score, as a integrated musical work Hamilton has a formal richness, a density of ideas and a theatrical ambition that leaves most Broadway musicals looking like the stolid relics of a bygone age that the actually are.

And it is beautifully, beautifully staged. I’d argue that Andy Blankenbuehler‘s choreography is as integral to its staging as LMM’s contributions. Howell Binkley’s lighting design also feels similarly important. And not withstanding LMM’s limitations as a performer, from the film of the OBC it is/was performed to within an inch of its life by an insanely talented cast.

So, while everybody is free to like it not like any work of art and that has nothing to do with intelligence or being dumb, I also feel that Hamilton is a pretty extraordinary theatrical work.

Groff was a bit terrifying as King George, but the character was toned down in the London production (I guess because the King’s insanity is a delicate subject in the U.K.)

I saw Hamilton in 2015, actually on the night they did the A Chorus Line tribute. I slept through half of Hamilton but some of the cast are very talented based on their ability to sing from ACL. I have no particular bias against Hamilton, it just didn't seem that great to me. I know people who have seen it and say its life changing.

A lot of people who saw Hamilton never saw a musical in their life. So I think some of the wow factor was seeing a broadway show for the first time.

But you can’t say it was worse than anything else that’s been put out. There isn’t much competition these days.

love ya, R77, but Blankenbuehler needs to learn how to show, not tell. His extremely underwhelming work on the Cats movie showed his true colors. Binkley's also done better (and more important/challenging) work elsewhere.

"LMM comes across a dumb, non-Black person trying to be "cool"

So, like you?

R78 That king has lots of saliva dribbling down at 1.48

I've only seen clips of "Hamilton" but it comes across as one of those shows that the kids on the "Fame" TV series would have come up with.

[quote][R78] That king has lots of saliva dribbling down at 1.48

That’s why he’s known as “Groffsauce.”

R77 MARY!

R77 is getting some good weed during lockdown.

Hamilton was written by a hack closet queen.

This play has about as much in common with Alexander Hamilton as Donald Trump has with normal underwear. I knew Alexander Hamilton - truth be told he wanted to marry me but I said no. Even so, this is fiction even for made up stuff. You had to be there.

[quote]LMM comes across a dumb, non-Black person trying to be "cool" and show he can "rap" when really he is not a very good rapper.

I remember during that Tony’s broadcast when it was nominated that every time they showed him he looked so NEEDY. It was pathetic.

R90 Hell, not just during that Tonys. I only remember this because I re-watched it recently but after the Next to Normal performance at the 2009 Tonys it cuts to someone linked to NtN in the audience, and behind him is LMM - and he's gesturing at the camera to try and get the focus on himself.

LMM is kind of like Trump in that way.

There is absolutely no reason that Potus needs to enter this tread. Can't we have any space that is free of him. Keep him out of here. r89 and r92

The only thing I hate is the LMM worshiping like he's the second coming. Most of those people are band wagoners too has he's been doing his craft years before Hamilton.

Like Cats,like Rent,like Phantom,like Sunset Blvd theres about 3 songs in the whole thing I might want to hear a few times . I find with most musicals thats the case . Blood Brothers really comes to mind.

With the exception of "Tootsie" which was just serviceable, David Yazbek actually writes better scores (music and lyrics), but while he has a Tony, hasn't the press adoration of LMM. But Yazbek's shows will probably revive better in the future.

I still haven’t watched the last 40 min. of it. Watched to the interval the 1st evening - which felt like it would never come - and then some more the 2nd evening...

The cast is amazing, save for the charisma void at the centre - and the staging is great.

But the writing is...not great. There are so few scenes that have any immediacy, that are actually happening, and the rest of it is all this declamatory representational history lesson stuff talking about stuff that’s happened or is gonna happen - which isn’t exactly dramatic. It actually made me miss Les Miserables, of which I am not a fan, but at least managed to locate the drama.

The Hadestown score is better than Hamilton, though it totally rips off Hamilton’s staging and has similar dramatic problems (though not as bad as Hamilton).

Hamilton is right-wing propaganda. I know people can like Evita while deploring the fascism of the Peronism, but the whole core of Hamilton is anti-historical propaganda.

Is still have not heard discussion about how the Disney production is different from the stage version? I assume they cleaned it up quite a bit to make it palatable for a family audience who was unable to handle something so innocuous as Love, Victor. And do they basically rewrite History and not have him die at the end, it just wouldn’t be a Disney production without a happy ending? I’m imaging something like the Pocahontas film?

I’d rather watch a production of Mack & Mabel.

r99, interesting editing. Especially the rewind in Satisfied. They is a youtube video of deleted songs. Mostly the beginning or more talking us into the song parts of existing songs. No censors just made it tighter.

R99 - the only change they made from the broadway stage version was audio-blurring two of the three "fucks" in the lyrics -- the material in the video at R101 was cut from the show during the writing / workshopping / off broadway process.

I saw the show a few times with the OBC, and it definitely looses a great deal in the filmed and edited version - the talent of the actors is perhaps more apparent but the overall immersive sweep of the staging & choreography suffers; and the energy and excitement of watching a live performance is obviously gone -- so weaknesses are more apparent. Even so, it was one of the better, more original new musicals of the last 20 years - a much better artistic achievement than Rent. The hype was definitely insane, but the show was still quite good.

Lin was not as good a singer / actor than the rest of the cast, and Javier Munoz his alternate was much better than he was, but Lin did bring a certain charm and psychic energy to the role that is all him and that worked live. As the live production didn't translate completely to this recorded version, I also think a full movie musical version like "1776" won't work as well as the stage production either.

I want to see it but only because of the positive and negative reviews. But not sure I want to spend $6.99 just to watch it. I'm not into the Star Wars stuff.

Anyway, for the poster who said they liked/preferred In the Heights, see the link below.

TO each his own. I think Hamiliton is extraordinary because the brilliant story, lyrics,and music came out of one head. We have never seen anything like this on stage before. Knowing In The Heights, I would never have expected he could raise the bar so much.

Others may think it's not so exciting a show.

Life goes on.

OP, I would say yes to both of your questions.

He only asked one, R105.

Excerpt from the original script— B*stard Wh*re Sh*t Sh*t B*stard Wh*re A** Sh*t Sh*t F*ck A** A** C*ckold Wh*re Pr*ck Motherf*ckin' B*stard Sh*t Sh*t (a) B*stard Wh*reson Sh*t Sh*t Sh*t Sh*t Sh*t Sh*t Sh*t Sh*t Sh*t A**hole PAY YOUR F*CKING TAXES

“‘Maybe’ is a worse ‘no’.”

OP is damning in her faint praise and hesitant self-deprecating criticism.

Just saw the film/show for the first time. Oh my fucking god, the choreography is horrendous. But I’m with you too, OP. As a show it’s just okay. It’s great that it gets young people excited about theatre, and I know I’m not the target audience, but it’s still the triumph of an enormously successful p.r. campaign.

Why Gen Z Turned on Lin-Manuel Miranda:

Why is it that the majority of people on this site HATE everything? It's so odd.

I loved Jonathan Groff's King George III

[quote] Why is it that the majority of people on this site HATE everything?

Insecurity. To some people, it would be terrible to admit to liking something that some anonymous queen thinks is trash.

No, OP. You're right. Nobody with actual taste in musical theatre likes Hamilton. It's pedestrian bullshit. There's a reason all of the fans are 12 year old white girls. Great pieces of theatre tend to not have the same fanbase demographic as One Direction.

You have excellent taste, OP.

I found the constant movement very distracting. And there's a reason everyone loves "You'll Be Back" — it's a tuneful song, sung solo onstage by an actor who can sing, and the words are comprehensible, and funny. It makes a funny character out of King George.

There don't seem to any other real characters in the show, particularly Hamilton himself. Was he funny, charming, fierce, vain... what?

The only character I actually "felt" was Angelica, and she is hardly an important part of the history.

Overall, as a history "lecture" set to music, I thought it was fine. Not my favorite. I'll take Gypsy for $2000 Alex.

I think it's total crap.

I get criticized for it all the time and it just makes me dislike the show even more.

To say the show is "total crap" just shows that you are an idiot. It's a great show, which you should be able to appreciate whether it's to your personal taste or not.

I was disappointed after all the hype. One attention seeking queen posted a photo of himself on bended knee proposing in front of the empty Broadway stage . The ushers should have thrown him out. A rich friend saw it cheap pre-Broadway at the Public, then spent $600 to see it again, then visited Hamilton’s house and posted a photo of the Hamilton bobblehead you can only but there. A third friend posted lyrics every day for weeks.

After all that, I was disappointed, to be fair, largely due to the circumstances. When I was in NYC my housemate called to tell me my dog was dying, I had a horrendous fight with my father, and the two friends I went with hated each other. I saw some of the original cast, but not LMM or Groff.

Three years later everyone is raving about seeing it on Disney +. The show is not worth bringing those memories.

BTW, when I saw Rent, there were still tons of show groupies. Absolutely hated Rent from start to finish.

R111 I don't. I actually like Lin-Manuel Miranda, and think he was hot with that long hair. He's still cute with the short hair, just not hot. I would say Hamilton is [italic] different [/italic]. That it is to other musicals. I'm not keen on hip-hop or rap, yet I know it speaks to many, and as a poster upthread mentioned, it really speaks to youth. My friend's eight and ten year olds sing/rap the music from it. It can be both hilarious, as well as annoying at the same time.

R110 An editor really needed to work on that title, it sounds like Miranda is sexually aroused by young people.

It cracks me up that “You’ll Be Back” is a fave among Boomers. It sounds like a jingle for a 70s breath mint ad.

I hope Lin Manuel develops a musical about the late, great astrologer Walter Mercado. The capes alone would make it worth seeing.

R122 That would be hilarious, and has all the makings for a high-camp masterpiece. Is it Netflix that has the film? I forget, but there most certainly would be much interest.

Wasn’t In the Heights supposed to come out, did they shelve it because it’s a bomb?

In the Heights was not finished before the pandemic hit.

R125 It was done and to open at the end of June. But the pandemic may have just been a good excuse to shelve it. Maybe they will use all the extra time to rework it and try to fix it.

Disney owns the film, and as we all know musicals owned by Disney are always high art.

Disney owns the film, and as we all know musicals owned by Disney are always high art.

I've watched 3 times and it's really grown on me. And I've had the "You'll be back" song stuck in my head for weeks.

As someone else said, LMM and Phillippa Soo (Eliza) lacked chemistry. Soo has a gorgeous voice, but I wasn't surprised when Amelie, her post-Hamilton role, closed after only a few weeks. I loved Jasmine Cephas-Jones, Daveed Diggs and Christopher Jackson. I was meh about the rest of the cast. There were moments that felt like a cast member made a joke during rehearsals and they worked it into the show, like the ridiculous beat box scene with Eliza, Alexander and their son.

As much as I like LMM, the man can't sing, act or dance. He's a brilliant composer, though.

Meant to add that I think a big part of the hype for Hamilton came from all the high school drama club Gleeks who developed crushes on the cast members. Miranda did an excellent job cultivating that following with the daily lotteries for tickets and accompanying cast appearances at the stage door in the middle of the day.

OP, I have a VERY similar background to yours and was also quite underwhelmed by “Hamilton”. I really enjoyed it but found it to be incredibly overrated and undeserving of its accolades.

The criticism here of Hamilton is SO bad.

It’s not biting, it’s not creative, it’s not interesting. It’s worthless in explaining what the show lacks and why it isn’t good.

People who hate something should do better.

I say this with all seriousness: every single person I know who likes Hamilton is overweight.

For years, Broadway had been mostly for tourists.

Native New Yorkers who are into plays, usually try to catch them before the hype seeps in and the prices are prohibitive. I forgot what major play I saw years ago, it previewed at the Puck building, the tickets were fairly low. The same cast ended up in the Broadway version, where the tickets were extremely expensive.

Years ago, I belonged to a ticket club, the older woman who ran it always managed to get us decent tickets for major 'hit' plays for only $25 and this wasn't too long ago, early 2000s. I had no idea how she scored these tickets,. The price to join the club was also low, around $10 a year. When I heard people were paying hundreds of dollars to see a sold out play, it was laughable, especially as I was getting tickets for $25.

A lot of the over the top raves about these plays are pure hype. Especially when some Hollywood celeb is in a play for a limited run. The play is suddenly a "must see".

For years, Broadway HAS been mostly for tourists.

I've posted here already and have rewatched it 4xs.

I can't get enough of Chris Jackson's silky voice as Washington.

My day perks up as David Diggs prances around the stage singing "What did I miss?" as Jefferson and "You don't have the votes, ha ha" and "Never going to president now", in Hamilton's face.

Try it again Op. First view you'll appreciate Odam's perfection as Burr singing "Wait for it" and the "Room where it happened" , Goldsberry's singling Angelica's regret in the brilliant "Satisified" and Diggs' spitting words in "Guns and Ships".

But you will come to be astonished by Soo's pathos singing "Burn", Jefferson's nuttiness, Washington's honor and humility together, along with Peggy slutting it up as that Reynolds woman all in the 2nd act. I first couldn't get enough of the first act and the 2nd it just got so serious but it's brilliant in a different way.

You can enjoy it here

Hamilton is the epitome of tourist theatre. I hated when they were trying to pass it off as intellectual back in 2016. It's in the same league as Phantom and The Lion King.

OP always has sounded like he gets paid for starting threads here.

Quora here at the lounge.

It’s a zeitgeist show, like Rent. And we all know that crappy eras get the overrated shows they deserve.

Hamilton is about one thing and one thing only: Lin Manuel’s insufferability and ambition. It doesn’t help that he is a terrible actor, singer and dancer.

It really is relentless and low-brow camp masquerading as brilliance. Hard pass.

R142, Lin wasn't terrible. He was okay and got the job done but the cast around him was outstanding.

The song writing was brilliant.

I’ll give him clever, but brilliant is a stretch. His word smithing is stronger than his music.

Lin's incredibly talented when he stays behind the scenes. The problem is that his ego is too big for him to ever stay behind the scenes. He's starred in every single play he has ever written.

Anybody who writes main roles for themselves in their work is an egomaniac.

He’s not skillful when writing for any other character but....himself.

r147, are you kidding. All the characters around Hamilton were all better than A. Ham. They had better songs and moments.

Burr was written with emotion and complexity, as was Angelica and Eliza. Thomas Jefferson and Washington were very skillfully written.

I definitely am the type to need multiple viewings to get obsessed with some musicals....but the key is wanting to go back for viewing number two.

I haven't felt that obligation with Hamilton. It's fine, I didn't hate it, but no song stuck in my head. It's also so rap heavy, and I'm not as into that.

Oh well.

Although his intro number is my favourite song in the show, am I the only person who thinks that if Daveed Diggs' performance of What Did I Miss?, meaning the choreography and facial expressions, had first been seen on, say, a Tonight Show, it would be condemned as too "Jim Crow"? I'm not American, or even very woke, but I was a bit stunned. Can some Americans comment on this for me?

Also (disagreeing strongly here with R148), why is it that Miranda has written Jefferson as a leering ignoramus? His comment about the financial policy being too long to read boggles the mind - Jefferson's personal library was so large and diverse (and in so many languages) it is classified by the Dewey system in the Library of Congress. I get that Jefferson is meant to be Hamilton's competition, but surely in life he was competition at the same or a higher level? Hamilton's ability to outwit someone who can't even make it through his policy hardly seems like a victory for our hero to be proud of. (Whether Jefferson would have made it all the way through this show is another matter.)

I'm perfectly prepared to believe Jefferson was a bighead, but intellectually limited, in any degree at all? Nup.

OP, I thought the show was novel (as a rap musical) and enjoyably energetic. I did think it dealt with the death of Hamilton's son and the effect on his marriage with surprising sensitivity, though otherwise Eliza's ballads were lost on me. After seeing it once in the theatre and once on Disney+, I couldn't sit through the whole thing again.

What Did I Miss was such a weird song for them to give Jefferson. He's supposed to be this awful villain who actively uses his position of power to hurt people and they give him a jaunty, class clown, Oliver and Company style song as an introduction?

Yeah you're stupid.

Or maybe you can't appreciate the rap style of musical.

Everything about it is incredibly well done. The ensemble is amazing. The lighting is spectacular. The performances are all high caliber.

Those that hate it are probably the same type of people that would be happy over at the Theatre Gossip thread discussing Follies for the millionth time or Gypsy or Compayny or any Sondheim play.

Clearly it's not for everybody.

It IS for everybody that truly loves and appreciates music and brilliant staging and all the things that make theater exciting and magical.

R152 Hi Lin, we were just discussing the juxtaposition of your lack of on-stage talent and your egocentric habit of making yourself the lead in every piece of theatre you've ever composed! Now tell us, Linny, what's your secret?

You're very original 153 I've never read a response like yours before.

hackneyed and tired

I don't think anyone's denying that he put it together skillfully, that the concept was sound and that it definitely landed at the right time in history, but to say that everybody who doesn't love it can't appreciate good music is ridiculous. I think my biggest issue with the show is that there aren't any sweeping songs that get stuck in my head, up-tempo or otherwise. There's a very current pop rap hip-hop sensibility to it which will definitely appeal to a lot of people, but it's the show's musicality that I feel is sometimes lacking.

Also, people like you r152 who insist that it is the Holy Grail and anybody who doesn't immediately agree is an idiot is a huge turnoff. I enjoyed the Book of Mormon for what it was, but the years of hype were excruciating and now I'm getting a little frustrated with people who are raving about Hamilton. American history isn't nearly as interesting to non-americans as you might think it is.

....but good for you that you love it so much.

It's easier to swallow peddling warm memories of fascists when it's somebody else's country like Argentina. When it's your own, it just comes across as pandering for money, in a word, Lin, PROSTITUTION.

Even Americans aren't really interested in American History. The only people I know who are super into history like that are old straight white men who would think musicals are too "queer" to enjoy anyways.

I want this man:

But he wasn’t in the show when they did the Chorus Line celebration.

R150 -- I think you are misreading the portrayal of Jefferson a bit -- he didn't read the whole proposal because he wasn't able to; but because his own egocentricity / high self regard and hatred of Hamilton made putting in that effort beneath him, in his mind. It's not that he couldn't, he just couldn't be bothered.

As to the staging of "What Did I Miss" you are catching the subtext correctly, but perhaps because you are not American you are missing the intentional point of it. The obvious conceit of Hamilton is that the very white Founding Fathers are played by actors of color - and while this certainly can be a turn off to more conservative Americans the staging of the show goes deeper than just the surface visuals. They take old American cultural (and showbiz) tropes about African Americans and intentionally push them hard to turn them on their head.

One old racist assumption about black men is that while they might not be intelligent, they are extremely, even dangerously strong physically and so sexually potent that white women need to be protected from them (and from their own almost uncontrollable desires for them). See the history of lynchings and the 70's Blacksploitation movies Drum and Mandingo. So here we have George Washington the "Father of our Country" as both the most eloquent and enlightened character and also physically a big, "scary," black MoFo.

Another black show biz trope is the flashy overdressed pimp -- see everything from SuperFly to Starsky and Hutch. Jefferson was a indeed dandy, and here he is introduced not only as an 18th Cent pimp in purple velvet, but his whole opening number draws heavily from Minstrel Show choreography and performance style - where black performers wore blackface and "cooned it up" to please a white audience; but now another august white Founder (and slave owner who had an affair and children with one of his slaves) is tapping it up for us like the silliest darkie since Butterfly McQueen. These types of choices are why I think the show is so brilliant.

Lin took that old show business axiom to heart: “if you can’t wow them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.“

I thought his axiom was you gotta get a gimmick?

Nope - it’s “Give 'em the old razzle dazzle.”

And he must be having a Brazzle Dazzle Day with all that Disney money, but artistically it's worth zip to me.

Thank you, R161. If that's what they're trying to do I can't speak to the success of it, not being American, but thank you for explaining a point of view that I totally didn't get. It's not that I don't know the black tropes: it's that I don't know what you can and can't say about the Founding Fathers without causing a ruckus.

One of the only good things about this pandemic and lockdown, is Lin Manuel Miranda is not the special guest on every freaking late night talk show every god damned day for years. He's been pimpiing the fucking shit out of this musical for years now. Enough already!