Are you a fan of his writing?
Do you think he was brilliant? Overrated?
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Are you a fan of his writing?
Do you think he was brilliant? Overrated?
|by Anonymous||reply 106||Last Friday at 7:42 PM|
I"m more a fan of his life, than his writing. Fascinating character.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||06/23/2020|
Never read a single book, but I know all about him as a pop culture icon and celebrity. He's more famous than his stories! Just like Jack Kerouac!
|by Anonymous||reply 2||06/23/2020|
The man certainly loved cats.
|by Anonymous||reply 3||06/23/2020|
I liked For Whom the Bell Tolls.
|by Anonymous||reply 4||06/23/2020|
I never have liked his writing - his sentences seem too short and inelegant as if he's purposely trying to write masculine. Like R1 I find him more interesting a person than writer.
|by Anonymous||reply 5||06/23/2020|
I believe he was one of the most overrated writers of the 20th century.
|by Anonymous||reply 6||06/23/2020|
Great work at first, then success pickled him.
|by Anonymous||reply 7||06/23/2020|
The literary types certainly HYPE him up.
A good example , excellent example of a writer/playwright who was NOT overrated- SHAKESPEARE.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||06/23/2020|
He is eminently readable. By that I mean I've struggled with some famous authors. Henry James comes to mind, Thomas Hardy I enjoyed. I was enamoured of "Orlando" ten years ago, almost devotional. A year ago I decided to reread it, and waited for the familiar magic to wash over me. I found it impossible to even finish it.
Hemmingway didn't infuse (or is it 'exude'?) a sense of, "I'm hot shit and you're lucky to have a chance to exist in my light." He was like Somerset Maugham in that way; he told a story, he told it well, you didn't feel like it was a chore to pick up one of his titles and realize that although there was a bookmark in place, you had a hard time remembering the last details of whatever you put down.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||06/23/2020|
I'm a fan of minimal, spare writing, but Hemingway's stories always leave me cold.
|by Anonymous||reply 10||06/23/2020|
He didn't understand women but thought he did. Painful to read his condescending clumsy efforts to portray believable female characters.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||06/23/2020|
Hemingway was a marvelous, skilled writer who wrote meaty prose but often, to me, seemed to suppress his intelligence for the sake of his masculine narrator's voice and point of view.
R9's comparison of Hemingway to Maugham is hilarious. It never occurred to me! Smart in its way, though, although I find Maugham's directness to be less about his trying to show his no-nonsense butchness (of which he had none) than to pare his insights into human character down to a form of realism. Hemingway always appeared to be wanting to prove himself as not being a pouf, which has been said often enough to be a cliche.
I admit it's hard for me to read either - I prefer Graham Greene among their contemporaries (as well as Eudora Welty, for that matter).
|by Anonymous||reply 12||06/23/2020|
I prefer Dr. Seuss. "Yertle the Turtle" is an overlooked literary masterpiece!!! Just sayin'.
|by Anonymous||reply 13||06/23/2020|
Yes, I’m a fan of his writing and also of those meat paws.
|by Anonymous||reply 14||06/23/2020|
Cats represent the feminine. He had severe masculinity issues. Suicide = gay.
Oh and he is unreadable. Writes like a robot.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||06/23/2020|
Had a very tiny penis, so I hear. Explains a lot.
|by Anonymous||reply 16||06/23/2020|
|by Anonymous||reply 17||06/23/2020|
He was hot.
|by Anonymous||reply 18||06/23/2020|
Anyone else think he was a seriously repressed homosexual? Did he have a crush on F. Scott Fitzgerald?
|by Anonymous||reply 19||06/23/2020|
I could have sworn I once read a letter that was presumably from Hemingway to F. Scott Fitzgerald and that it came across as very gay. But now I can't find it, so I must be remembering incorrectly.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||06/23/2020|
Oh, he's great. That book about a man trying to be a manly man. Failing, he tries to become a manlier man. A manlier man by being even more manly. More manly than a random fish/bull/bullet/etc. Failing again, he just decides that it's fine because at least he's not a fucking woman.
Oh, wait, that's all the books.
Overrated by, shockingly, men.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||06/24/2020|
Oh, wow, R18, i will save that for the next thread Of me with womanly hips.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||06/24/2020|
[quote] Of me with womanly hips
|by Anonymous||reply 23||06/24/2020|
I did enjoy his short story about an abortion -- Hills like White Elephants.
Otherwise, I think William Saroyan -- one of his contemporaries -- was better.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||06/24/2020|
R21- EM was a HARD drinker. That gave him MASCULINE credentials especially among straight men.
|by Anonymous||reply 25||06/24/2020|
Crazy Zelda Fitzgerald recognized he was a "latent homosexual" as they were called then. She wasn't so crazy, after all.
Before 1935 he was one of the great talents in American letters (albeit one who stole freely from Gertrude Stein) and HAF. After that, it was a relatively rapid descent into a hellish existence of writer's block, alcoholism, mental illness, and failure.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||06/24/2020|
I think The Sun Also Rises is one of the great American novels and his short stories, while variable can be very powerful. Never much liked A Farewell to Arms (die already, Catherine!) and The Old Man and the Sea is too self-consciously allegorical for my tastes. Haven’t been able to get through the other novels.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||06/24/2020|
If I ever do make it to Cuba, I would love to see his house.
|by Anonymous||reply 28||06/24/2020|
Say a play once where F.Scott was crushing on Papa. They compared dick sizes and danced the Charleston together.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||06/24/2020|
Never liked his writing, though I recall that a couple of short non-fiction pieces and letters were uncharacteristically good: simple writing, but not painfully spare writing. An interesting figure only in that he was so many places and crossed so many paths, but more as an historical than a literary figure.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||06/24/2020|
The macho persona was very annoying.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||06/24/2020|
Good, but overrated.
Overrated because for much of the 20th century, straight men thought it was cool to admire him. If you were a literary type then praising him gave you masculinity cred, and if you were a manly he-man he was the one literary author you could praise without fear of being thought effete.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||06/24/2020|
That's not writing That's typing.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||06/24/2020|
There has never been a better story about PTSD than EH's "Soldier's Home" (circa 1924). He was one of the greats, but he peaked at age 30.
|by Anonymous||reply 34||06/24/2020|
Datalounge hates anything too feminine or too masculine. Strictly middle of the road.
The Sun Also Rises made a huge sensation when it came out, and deservedly so. It’s one of the great novels of the 20th century and was enormously influential.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||06/24/2020|
He was okay. I preferred Margaux.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||06/24/2020|
Yes, "The Sun Also Rises" is a great and complex novel that defies being pigeon-holed as a hyper-macho screed.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||06/24/2020|
Forced to read The Old Man and the Sea in high school. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||06/24/2020|
Daiquiris with Tennessee
|by Anonymous||reply 39||06/24/2020|
^^Drinking daiquiris sounds so unlike someone like Hemingway.
|by Anonymous||reply 40||06/24/2020|
I enjoyed “A Farewell to Legs.”
|by Anonymous||reply 41||06/24/2020|
His son was transgender, wasn't he?
|by Anonymous||reply 42||06/24/2020|
Hemingway has a daiquiri named after him so it's not much of stretch. That and he was a full-on drunkard.
|by Anonymous||reply 43||06/24/2020|
Were daquiris considered girly drinks then? Or were they considered to be exotic foreign drinks suitable for a man of the world?
|by Anonymous||reply 44||06/24/2020|
R43, thanks for that. Daiquiris remind me of my aunt and her giant daiquiri glass for her frozen strawberry daiquiris, lol. That's why I found the connection to Hemingway funny.
|by Anonymous||reply 45||06/24/2020|
I've only read one of his.
This great English prose writer (who was very scornful of 'awful Americans') did pay attention to Hemingway's prose. I think because it was like American cinema— quick, direct and without flowery adjectives.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||06/24/2020|
I've not read much of his work. But his biggest fans I've found to be men who annoy the shit out of me. Insecure men. They validate something about themselves when they cheer for Hemingway.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||06/24/2020|
I think a lot of people have a less than favorable opinion of him based are their knowledge of him as a cultural figure. But, in my opinion, 'The Sun Also Rises' and 'For Whom the Bell Tolls' are probably among the greatest novels written in the twentieth century. Also, there are many really great short stories like the already mentioned, 'Hills Like White Elephants' and 'Che Ti Dice La Patria.'
|by Anonymous||reply 48||06/24/2020|
I've only seen the movie of 'The Sun Also Rises'.
I couldn't quite see the point; it's about male impotence, isn't it?
|by Anonymous||reply 49||06/24/2020|
He was a cruel, homophobic bastard. Once, he saw an obviously gay man, and uttered to his friend, something akin to “see that fairy”? He walked over and punched that man in the face, thereby knocking him to the floor.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||06/24/2020|
Mmmm, those hairy forearms...he was DEFINITELY a literary genius!
|by Anonymous||reply 51||06/24/2020|
Alec Guinness records in his diary how embarrassed he was at Noel Coward being effeminately outré at the dinner which Hemingway hosted when they were filming 'Our Man in Havana' in Cuba.
|by Anonymous||reply 52||06/24/2020|
It's hard to believe that Hemingway is only 31-years-old in OP's photo.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||06/24/2020|
R53 He had a wide head— just like Teddy Rooseveldt and Grace Kelly.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||06/24/2020|
R53 That's what alcohol bloat does to a person
|by Anonymous||reply 55||06/24/2020|
R55. 55-year-olds today look younger than 30-year-old Hemingway in that photo.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||06/25/2020|
The Old Man and the Sea was a bore.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||06/25/2020|
I liked his memoir about Paris, A Moveable Feast. He was famous for being a nasty man, but it's surprisingly sweet-tempered, with only a few nasty moments.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||06/25/2020|
I was a lucky sport.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||06/25/2020|
Hemingway once called Orson Welles a faggot during a film screening, according to Welles. Great clip here:
|by Anonymous||reply 60||06/25/2020|
Was writing considered a hyper masculine pursuit before?
|by Anonymous||reply 61||06/25/2020|
Yes, R61, as was being a painter. Thinking of the AbEx a-holes of the 50s, but always masculine prior to the Pop movement I'd say.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||06/25/2020|
R61 Writers such as Shakespeare were flowery, poetical, periphrastic and effeminate.
Hemingway came along and deleted ALL adjectives and adverbs.
|by Anonymous||reply 63||06/25/2020|
The current generation don't make use of adjectives and adverbs.
|by Anonymous||reply 64||06/25/2020|
r33 Truman Capote said that about Jack Kerouac--specifically regarding "On the Road--not Ernest Hemingway.
|by Anonymous||reply 65||06/25/2020|
R63 Truman Capote said that in the context of the current scene.
Hemingway was established 30 years prior to that.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||06/25/2020|
R63 This Hemingway permits some adjectives and adverbs.
|by Anonymous||reply 67||06/25/2020|
R65, to be fair, did Capote like any other single living author on earth?
|by Anonymous||reply 68||06/25/2020|
I love that clip R60, thanks for posting it.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||06/25/2020|
r63 Could you please help me understand what you mean? On the face of it, it doesn't make sense. Capote's remark was directed at all of the so-called "beat generation" (of which Hemingway was certainly not a part) and specifically about Kerouac. The remark was made on late-night television (Johnny Carson's Tonight Show, I believe) with no reference, direct or indirect, about Hemingway.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||06/25/2020|
r65, He thought very highly of Willa Cather's work and briefly knew her in his youth.
|by Anonymous||reply 71||06/25/2020|
The reply to r65 was intended for r68. Apologies.
|by Anonymous||reply 72||06/25/2020|
I wonder how the Truman Capote would have coped in our crazy world today.
I suspect he would have been so busy on Twitter and TV that he wouldn't have had the time to write his little stories.
|by Anonymous||reply 73||06/25/2020|
I'm sorry r73, but you embarrass yourself when you refer to "his little stories." You may not care for such "little stories" as "Miriam," "Children on Their Birthdays," or "A Christmas Memory," but they (and others of his) remain reliably in print and are still regularly anthologized. Little stories, indeed.
|by Anonymous||reply 74||06/25/2020|
^. Ok, they're not little, they're short.
|by Anonymous||reply 75||06/25/2020|
The themes of masculinity are layered throughout his work. He lived in a different time and I do believe him to be at least bisexual with a lot of self loathing and questioning that comes through. For instance, for Sun Also rises he chose a impotent straight male character, undermining traditional masculinity. The female lead is introduced as part of a group of gay men and she has a male name, a male haircut and is a sexual pursuer more like a man. The Garden of Eden has a lot of role reversal as well with both characters (male and female) taking on each others looks and sexual roles. I think those who simply focus macho hunter/soldier/sailor male archetypes aren’t digging deep enough.
|by Anonymous||reply 76||06/25/2020|
|by Anonymous||reply 77||06/25/2020|
"Marcelline claimed in her memoir that their mother, Grace, had wanted twins, but instead got her and brother Ernest 18 months apart - so she raised them as 'twins' - sometimes dressing them as girls."
Marcelline being Hemingway's sister.
|by Anonymous||reply 78||06/25/2020|
Some of his work was wonderful, but his style is just too cold. When it comes to alcoholic American male writers of the 20th century, I much prefer William Faulkner.
|by Anonymous||reply 79||06/25/2020|
I didn't care a whole lot for his writing style - the terse, short sentences - but his life was fascinating, plus he loved cats. He was certainly a man's man. A number of years ago, I owned a book of short stories, and each one was a "take off" of a particular writer's style. The Hemingway story was spot on, and dryly funny. I gave that book away, but now I wish I hadn't. I can't remember the title.
|by Anonymous||reply 80||06/26/2020|
I don't think his plots are very interesting. I don't remember which version it was, but at some point they had a really hard time dramatizing A FARWELL TO ARMS. The producer moaned, "It's written with water."
|by Anonymous||reply 81||06/26/2020|
R81 I wonder what 'written with water' means.
|by Anonymous||reply 82||06/26/2020|
Huge pussy hound. Big Bush supporter.
|by Anonymous||reply 83||06/26/2020|
R76 You sound like you know Hemingway's stuff. What would you recommend for someone new to Hemingway?
|by Anonymous||reply 84||06/26/2020|
He was in love with Gertrude Stein.
|by Anonymous||reply 85||06/26/2020|
R85, who could resist her feminine wiles?
|by Anonymous||reply 86||06/26/2020|
R84 those are my two favorites I mentioned. I think he also had some interesting short stories like the Short happy life of Francis Macomber. A moveable Feast is an easy read and about his life in Paris after the war and his ideas on writing and other famous writers at the time. I didn’t enjoy his war centered novels, old man and the sea or the Nick Adams stories as much.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||06/26/2020|
Did Hemingway enjoy any Cuban cock during his time on the island?
|by Anonymous||reply 88||06/26/2020|
"Was writing considered a hyper masculine pursuit before? "
No. Writing was a male-dominated field in Hemingway's time, of course, but it was a field that had been open to women since Jane Austen's time, as well as discrete gays like Oscar Wilde and Walt Whitman. Writing in general was considered to be work for the highly educated and sedentary, or even effete, unless you were a war correspondent or a big city crime reporter or something. IMHO a lot of Hemingway's obsession with masculinity and appearing masculine was bravado, and a reaction to something in himself that he saw as less than perfectly butch, and didn't want to accept.
Which leads us back to the question of whether Hemingway was a deeply closeted gay or bi. Surely someone here is old enough to heard any rumors that were going through the gay grapevine in the mid 20th century?
|by Anonymous||reply 89||06/26/2020|
One conclusion you can get from "A Moveable Feat" is that F. Scott Fitzgerald was a major douchebag.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||06/26/2020|
I took more from alcohol R79 than it ever took from me.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||06/26/2020|
I attract madmen and small animals.
|by Anonymous||reply 92||06/26/2020|
All that machismo was overcompensating for a little something else.
|by Anonymous||reply 93||06/26/2020|
OP's photo is EH in the early 40s. When he was over 40, not 30.
He was still HAF when he was in his early 30s. The booze bloat hadn't happened yet.
|by Anonymous||reply 94||06/27/2020|
I haven't read much about EH's life, but I've read a few books on Gary Cooper and the relationship they had always reads like Hemingway was completely in love with Cooper and idolized him as the ideal male. I guess know they'd be a "bromance". Cooper died in May '61 and Hemingway killed himself 6 weeks later.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||06/27/2020|
One of my English professors used to say that a great moment in literary history was a day Ernest Hemingway caught a fish and decided not to write about it.
|by Anonymous||reply 96||06/27/2020|
r96 Bravo. Thank you for this.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||06/27/2020|
I am not much for fiction but much prefer Hemingway to say... Joyce who is circuitous. Get to the point dammit, and don't dwell on it either! His burgers are really good. It's the capers...
|by Anonymous||reply 98||Last Monday at 3:40 PM|
I had to read “For Whom The Bell Tolls” in high school - I kept falling asleep on the couch as I plodded through it. I’d read “The Old Man and The Sea” several years earlier - 8th grade? The writing was so simple it seemed like a children’s book. Also read “Gatsby” in high school - while I was too young at the time to fully appreciate “Gatsby” I was plenty old enough to know “Bell” is lousy.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||Last Monday at 4:16 PM|
Was he circumcised?
|by Anonymous||reply 100||Last Monday at 4:21 PM|
R89 I'm not old enough to have heard any rumors on the gay grapevine but Hemingway DID invite the flamboyant Noel Coward and the epicene Alec Guinness to dinner.
|by Anonymous||reply 101||Last Monday at 4:21 PM|
Who remembers when Danny Partridge turned in a story written by Hemingway as one he'd written to Laurie, who was substitute-teaching his class, to prove she was treating him unfairly? She derided his story as immature and poorly written. I guess one of the writers had it out for Papa.
|by Anonymous||reply 102||Last Monday at 10:31 PM|
I think this thread has come to its conclusion.
|by Anonymous||reply 103||Last Tuesday at 3:27 PM|
r101 Are we to believe that it doesn't occur to you that he might have had other reasons for wishing to dine with two of the greatest artists of the 20th, and in Sir Alec's case, 21st, centuries? Both were masters of their respective art(s), as well as being celebrated wits--though witty as Guinness was, he was not anywhere near Coward--but who was? Still Guinness could casually remark in one of his diaries, "Bumped into Dirk Bogarde in Fry's splendid vegetable shop on Cale Street. He was fingering oddly shaped tomatoes with a knowledgeable air."
Perhaps he was doing research. Both Coward and Hemingway were avid gossips so there's also that. There are many reasons why he might have invited them. If in the unimaginable, to me, possibility that he might have had a sexual interest in either, or both, do you really think they are anywhere near what his type would likely have been?
|by Anonymous||reply 104||Last Thursday at 7:58 PM|
I read somewhere that being drunk makes you more creative.
|by Anonymous||reply 105||Last Thursday at 7:59 PM|
Dear Johnny R104. I am the ultimate fan of the artistry of the late Sir Alec Guinness— over decades of appreciation via almost 60 movies, his memoirs and his recordings of the TS Eliot poems.
And I can also appreciate Noel Coward's extraordinary talent but I have no idea of the late Hemingway's intentions when he invited them both to dinner.
I know of people who live in idyllic tropical islands who adore the sun and sand but go crazy unable to speak with someone in the English language.
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