How are straight women allowed to take over gay men?

None of those women are str8

They aren't taking over anything. If you don't like their books, don't buy them.

BTW, back in the day, a lot of lesbian pulps were written by straight men

Well, some of the best gay male fiction authors were women. Like Mary Renault, but at least she was a Lesbian.

Isn't this the literal definition of "cultural appropriation?"

Don't get me wrong, I don't subscribe to that outlandish notion. But, it just demonstrates the utter disingenuous nature of the entire intersectionality framework - or at least its hypocrisy.

[quote]They aren't taking over anything. If you don't like their books, don't buy them.

The bigger issue is that that stuff swamps the gay fiction section of Amazon, and even gay male writers are starting to ape the style.

Maybe it will stop as soon as gays quit worshipping pop “divas” and start noticing the talent of gay men instead.

Most gay male writers with any talent are not interested in writing “romances” (unless they do it strictly for the money and then they often adopt a pseudonym). The openly gay male romance writers are typically frauier than the Karenest of Karen’s—just as dishonest and untalented.

Then don't read cheesy gay romance novels, r5. I don't know why gay men would ape their style since most gay men are not interested in that shit, anyway

[quote]I don't know why gay men would ape their style since most gay men are not interested in that shit, anyway

Because it sells.

r9, sells to whom? A handful of fraus? This shit never gets near the bestseller list.

They don't have to. They just self-publish on Kindle and cut out the middle-man.

Pixie Lit.

Pass!

[quote]Well, some of the best gay male fiction authors were women. Like Mary Renault, but at least she was a Lesbian.

Many of the gay male-themed novels published by gay-owned Alyson Books back in the 1990s were written by women under male pseudonyms - and I doubt many of their readers had a clue. Not saying that any of them were on Mary Renault's level, just that there's nothing new about this at all.

Listen, it’s bad enough that they were born without a penis. Apparently it really bothers them. So cut them some slack.

they can cunt off

[quote]Isn't this the literal definition of "cultural appropriation?" Don't get me wrong, I don't subscribe to that outlandish notion. But...

That "but" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. Really sounds like "I don't believe cultural appropriation is a thing unless it's about my culture, or unless I can troll about it."

Most male/male romance novels are written by women and for women. I don't care, except when they try to pretend to be gay males for some sort of street card (See Josh Lanyon)

[quote] Maybe it will stop as soon as gays quit worshipping pop “divas” and start noticing the talent of gay men instead.

Worshipping divas is about worshipping gay men. Divas have gay men as their stylists, writers, and producers. Divas all the creation of gay men.

That’s why gay men aren’t interested in female singers who do their own stuff — like Michelle Shocked.

We have disgusting slash fic frau voyeurs who come here to ask sex questions for their mpreg smut. I don’t give a shit about what gets anybody off, but no, you can’t research your way into knowing an experience impossibly foreign to your own. It’s like rural Klansmen writing urban African-American faerie tales. Gross and offensive.

How fraus came to believe they are entitled to colonize gay spaces and the gay experience is a mystery to me.

I’ve never found gay novels to be well written. I read all the time. Same with gay themed movies, they just don’t measure up to big studio movies.

I don't think that's necessarily true, R18. The likes of PJ Harvey, Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Deborah Harry, Patti Smith, Björk, Joni Mitchell, Kelis, Peaches and other talented (or at least "interesting" and fiercely independent) women all have had or still have respectable to sizeable (and very loyal ) gay fan bases. None of them would be described as "divas" in the sense you're talking about.

[quote] Worshipping divas is about worshipping gay men.

So, why not worship the real thing? Plenty of talented gay male artists and no one here ever talks about them.

I was completely unaware this was a genre. Just reading the synopses on Amazon is entertaining.

[quote] So, why not worship the real thing? Plenty of talented gay male artists and no one here ever talks about them.

Because of society's homophobia, it's easier for the mainstream media to package gay sensibility in a female package.

[quote]I don't think that's necessarily true, [R18]. The likes of PJ Harvey, Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Deborah Harry, Patti Smith, Björk, Joni Mitchell, Kelis, Peaches and other talented (or at least "interesting" and fiercely independent) women all have had or still have respectable to sizeable (and very loyal ) gay fan bases. None of them would be described as "divas" in the sense you're talking about.

I'm sure they have gay fans, but none of these are have fanbases that are as gay as Judy, Liza, Cher, Madonna, etc...

No gay men worship Tegan and Sara or any of the man-exclusionary folk artists that played at Michfest.

It just so happens that because of society's homophobia most of our best work is done behind the scenes.

[quote]It just so happens that because of society's homophobia most of our best work is done behind the scenes.

Maybe if more people would get the fuck out of the closet it wouldn’t be that way.

Holy Mother of God, R18: you're referencing Michelle "God Hates Fags" Shocked, of all people?! Her producer, Pete Anderson, said she's ALWAYS been pretty far out there in WhackjobLand, but her career has been in shambles since, what, the late Nineties / early Aughts, I think? Might as well be wondering when that Patricia Nell Warren broad's "shocking" 1970s novel "The Front Runner" will be made into a major motion picture . . .

[quote] Maybe if more people would get the fuck out of the closet it wouldn’t be that way.

Yes, that would help someway, but not entirely.

[quote] Holy Mother of God, [R18]: you're referencing Michelle "God Hates Fags" Shocked, of all people?! Her producer, Pete Anderson, said she's ALWAYS been pretty far out there in WhackjobLand, but her career has been in shambles since, what, the late Nineties / early Aughts, I think? Might as well be wondering when that Patricia Nell Warren broad's "shocking" 1970s novel "The Front Runner" will be made into a major motion picture . .

That's one reason why she's a good example: I doubt she works with any gay men.

The more a female performer is the work of gay men the more she is popular among gay men -- e.g., Judy and Liza (could they ever marry a straight man?)

The less a female performer is the work of gay men the less interested gay men are in her -- e.g., most of the lesbian favorites, Michelle Shocked included.

Because men aren't allowed to be eff*minate, caftans and earrings are best realized by female celebrities on our behalf.

[quote]r19 you can’t research your way into knowing an experience impossibly foreign to your own.

Can gay writers write standard romance novels, then?

I guess not.

[quote]r19 you can’t research your way into knowing an experience impossibly foreign to your own.

Can gay writers write standard romance novels, then?

I guess not.

[quote] Can gay writers write standard romance novels, then?

I think it's fair to say gay men can write straight romance, but straight women can't write gay romance.

We live in a hetero-normative world and every gay man knows what straight couples are like. But straight women will never know most gay men's experiences (and nor do they care to mostly).

The straight women all seem to have one specific idea of how gay relationships work. I get that it's formulaic, but each story is basically a carbon copy with shockingly little variation. And they basically all end in some kind of heteronormative way, often involving children.

Maybe so, R25, but the statement that "gay men aren’t interested in female singers who do their own stuff" is simply not true--and like others have pointed out, Michelle Shocked is a pretty poor example of a performer who does [her] own stuff.

Not sure if people here are familiar with Ari Up (born Arianne Forster; she was John Lydon's stepdaughter and the lead singer of The Slits and died in 2010 at age 48), but a lot of gay men seemed to connect with her and her music, and she was as authentic and un-divaesque as you can get:

What about the dreaded "A Little Life"?

I don't know how you've all managed it but this thread is both the whiniest and the most entitled thread on DL.

We worship divas because they are gay male creations. Uh huh.

We know everything about women's romances but they can't know anything about our romances!

Gay males are always, always, always the victims of women...but not those straight men whose dicks we worship even though they gay bash us and actually hate us! How dare those women WRITE about gay men and love. How dare they!

[quote]No other marginalized group would stand for this.

Hahahaha from the thousands of years of women who were not even allowed to learn to read or write by men and had their lives, real and fictional, defined by those same men from the moment they were born to the moment they died. Same goes for blacks. White men, gay or straight, whining about being marginalized is hilarious. Fucking idiot.

[quote]Michelle Shocked is a pretty poor example of a performer who does [her] own stuff.

No, given how unlikely it is she's worked with any gay men I'd say she's a great example.

[quote]but a lot of gay men seemed to connect with her and her music, and she was as authentic and un-divaesque as you can get:

Never heard of her. None of that disproves my point though.

[quote]We know everything about women's romances but they can't know anything about our romances!

Correct. We all have straight parents, see constant images of opposite sex relationships in the media, see constant public displays of straight affection when we go out, etc.

All gay men live in a straight world.

There is no gay world. We're not even allowed this website.

Misogynist Troll Thread Closed.

F&F the radical feminist at R39.

[quote]White men, gay or straight, whining about being marginalized is hilarious.

Gay men aren't marginalized?

Muriel, delete this cunt.

White gay males are the most economically well-off group in the country. You all also claim to be the creators of all worthy culture, right? You cannot be the richest group and the shapers of culture while also whining about being marginalized.

Strictly based on personal experience, the vast majority of straight women are neutral or indifferent to gay men and would have no interest in these M/M romance novels, or maybe pick one up once out of mild curiosity. At the risk of being Captain Obvious, the women who attend these types of events form a small subculture within a subculture. All the psychological explanations for this particular preference among heterosexual women (see also: Yaoi) have been discussed before, including on this board, so I won't go into that here

R40: Michelle Shocked "reads" as lesbian, even though she is not, and hostile to men, even though she is not.

[quote]R35 But straight women will never know most gay men's experiences

As if they have no gay friends and family?

I don’t think we’re quite as exotic as you think we are.

That's not true r45. Gay men have a slightly high income than straight men, but if you are cutting people into groups Indian-Americans have the highest average income.

But averages are just that averages, the rich and powerful in this country are primarily straight white men.

THE FRONT RUNNER, the first bestseller about gays (and probably the best), was written by a woman.

THE TALENTED MR. RIPLEY was written by a woman.

What OP needs to do is stop sitting on hobo dicks ‘round the clock behind dumpsters and sit down at his DESK to write that [italic]revolutionary [/italic]gay novel he’s convinced we all need.

Women aren't the victims of gay men.

But they should be.

R50 sums up the majority of gay men on DL. If you don't like that characterization referring to you, do something about it. Silence is agreement.

R37, good call. The Slits are great. Two members of the Scissor Girls became educators. A lot of what gay men and women accomplish is still pushed back. Usually because it falls into the unglamorous world of community service. Good thread!

Honestly this is not as annoying as when women go to gay bars.

[quote]What about the dreaded "A Little Life"?

The author is a lesbian.

And R50 doesn't belong among civilized human beings. Muriel, use your power for good and rid us of some of these assholes, ffs.

Lesbians and straight men make more than gay men.

White British ciswomen complaining about being marginalized is hilarious.

There's no such thing as "cis women" or "cis" anything.

Ha! And the second you can’t attack gay men privilege no longer exists!

Gay men and straight women steal/borrow from each other all the time. Drag is an example of this. Without women this art form couldn’t exist.

Not true r55, at least not according to the recent data which shows the average gay man now earns slightly more than the average straight man.

Hey it's this thread again. I'm a little surprised we haven't seen the "A vegan ruined my dinner party" or "Fat people aren't really human" threads lately.

R61 I remember the stupid dinner party thread about a guest who ruined the whole affair by having the audacity to bring Raley’s cupcakes.

[quote] Gay men and straight women steal/borrow from each other all the time. Drag is an example of this. Without women this art form couldn’t exist.

Disagree. Drag borrows next to nothing from women.

Because they can.

....

It's always funny when dykes who are totally signed on with all left-wing 'privileges' suddenly recoil when they hear the word cis and turn into Tucker Carlson.

R63 sure. Keep telling yourself that.

[quote]—How many drag artists preform dressed as, or in tribute, to other men?

If you actually watched that video you'd see it's all gay men dressed up as caricatures of the work of other gay men. Judy Garland, Joan Crawford, Carol Channinng, et al are all the creation of gay men.

Note how few drag queens dress up as famous females who write, produce, control their own style and content or use other women to do it. Who dresses up as Melissa Etheridge or kd lang or Michelle Shocked?

[quote]R55 Lesbians and straight men make more than gay men.

No. Some of the cliches we see in many lesbians ( old trucks, flannel shirts, nut loaf, moving in together quickly) partially spring from the fact that they have less money. They’re also more likely to do their own carpentry etc. because it’s cheaper than hiring someone.

Lesbians are more likely than gay men to be raising kids, as well, which means there’s even less money to go around.

[quote]This shit never gets near the bestseller list.

Well...not [italic]never

There are a few gay men who write gay romance. It's no more or less a genre field than science fiction, cozy mysteries or whatever. I think it's awful that straight women choke the market. So own voices is important unless you are gay in which case anyone can tell your story? I'm not saying they can't right them but certainly they should acknowledge some of the problems with this. The fetish gay men and not just gay white men from what I have seen on Amazon.