Did you know that 44% of U.S. Workers Earn $18,000 Per Year

Republicans. They always favor corporations over workers and it has been like this for decades.

That's exactly what I earn. And, I work 30 hours a week for that. After taxes...$12500 a year.

And, just for those who don't know, that's too much money for me to qualify for the earned income tax credit as a single person. If I had one kid, that limit jumps to something like $38000 a year. It doesn't matter at all that I'm helping take care of my parents and their household.

I hate this fucking country.

What’s their to explain? How they got that number or why so many low earners? I think it’s a very believable figure and I don’t think it’s particularly noteworthy as most Western countries have a huge chunk of their workforce earning c. 20,000. Heck, in France an average salary is about $24K. Only the Scandinavian countries and Switzerland have figures that don’t make you weep for humanity.

But, the difference R3, is that in those European countries, you're not paying health insurance premium, tuition, child care with no help at all from society. You can actually live frugally without being destitute making that much. Not so in America, one of the worst countries on the fucking planet.

I make six figures, but am below the median income for my city. Income levels are not evenly distributed across the country. Poor places drag the average down.

R5, You sound like YourMilleinialCunt.

Did you lose part of your soul for every zero added to your salary? R5

I have read, and believe the notion: that in rich developed countries, 'poverty is a political choice'.

R4 in Washington DC, a single person can make $29,000 a year and be eligible for full benefits under Medicaid including vision and dental, a rent subsidy, food stamps, and other benefits. If they have a child, base income is increased of course and they have subsidized child care. Don't know how it is in the rest of the country.

R5 I sincerely don’t understand you point unless it’s:

[quote]Poor places drag the average down.

You speak of “poor places” as if they’re an act of nature. It’s strange.

I may be scrutinizing you to deeply, though.

*too

Here are 2 major reasons why: (1) Many low-wage workers aren't working 40+ hours per week; this lowers their incomes. (2) People make bad decisions at critical points during their lives (i.e, deciding to quit high school, having babies, picking unmarketable college major, etc). (3) People aren't doing anything to help themselves to improve their economic situation. Most of it is due to #1 and #2. I'm sick of whiners. I work 60 hour weeks. I don't like it, but it's what I need to do to earn a respectable income.

In 1990 I was making $24,000 a year after taxes and I lived quite comfortably. I'm making the same $24,000 a year after taxes now and I can barely get by.

R 12, I'm curious why you're making the same amount nearly 30 years later. Did you ever earn more than $24,000 during the past 30 years?

R13 as I had to change jobs either because companies closed, or layoffs, or reduced hours per shift, or personal reasons each new job seemed to pay less than the last one.

This is idiotic phrasing. 44% of people make exactly 18k?

Obviously not. What they are trying to express is the bottom 44% of workers make a median income of 18k.

R3 I'm French and 24k a year seem pretty okay to me especially if you don't have kids (and don't live in Paris). To give you a frame of reference, minimum wage is 14k euros (net), and a doctor (general practitioner) earns about 50k. When I was a student I could survive on 620 euros a month, with a rent of 320 euros for a small student's apartment in a not too big city. This was the strict minimum to stay fed, more or less correctly clothed, and have a roof over my head. That was ten year ago, so costs have increased a bit since then, but I'd say in the right city you can survive with 750-800 euros if you're single with no kids. And yeah, you don't really have to worry about healthcare. Usual costs are 2/3 covered by social security and for the rest most people have their job's private insurance. My personal insurance is 25 euros a month. So cost of life seems lower than for US people.

Surviving is one thing, as long as you never make a major purchase, travel anywhere, attend a concert, own a pet, etc.

[quote]Many low-wage workers aren't working 40+ hours per week

Exactly. All workers include those who only work part-time.

America needs to unionize again. Are any Dem candidates talking about this? It's the only way the working and middle class will turn from deplorablism to progressivism. We need another Hoffa without the criminal ties.

R19, how is unionization the answer to workers to don't want to work full-time? They will still earn lower wages because they choose not to work as much as someone else.

R16 Sure. I'm shocked by the salaries of people on DL tbh. I've always considered myself middle class but after spending time on here I think I am poor. The stats show I'm actually very average but so many people on here earn way over 6 figures and live in NY/SF/LA that I think they are in a bit of a bubble. No I am not living it up on 40K but have a nice life with enough for a few vacations every year and a few luxuries.

I also think many Americans, especially liberals, have an image of Europe that isn't in line with reality. The most left wing friends I have start spouting right wing rhetoric very quickly when they hear what Europeans are paid or what the tax rates are. Curiously too,the more left leaning the more likely they are (in my circle) to gush over wealth that was not earned but inherited as long as the heir is a blue state resident. Retail queens gushing over some heiress buying a 20 million apartment and whispering how great that the seller (another heir) offloaded it now taking advantage of Trump's inheritance tax rates. I mean,really? I think a huge blind spot for many urban liberals are the fiscal conservatives/social liberals. I'm so tired of the image of the redneck Christian type who is responsible for Trump while nothing is said about the educated, suburban Trump supporters or the wealthy ones.

Are Americans, left and right, willing to live a more minimalist lifestyle so that we can have a society with fewer extremes. Less abject poverty but less obscene wealth too? Will people embrace public transport if it's built and actually use it? Will the limousine liberals use the public school system? Will people embrace smaller vehicles? Will people let go and take their vacation days and paternity leave and 35 hour weeks if they got them? Again, very left leaning people I know are appalled by the EU countries who ban employees working more than a certain number of hours in a week. They take pride is working 80 hour weeks. I'm not sure that even the most liberal of my friends would want to live a more European lifestyle (the life of an average worker I mean).

I don't even understand your point R20. Part-timers will still earn more when wages rise. How is making more money not the answer?

If you restrict it people who work full time, the median income of an American worker is about 45k.

Median monthly income of full time workers by state.

R22, part-time workers can make more money today without increase in hourly wages by WORKING MORE HOURS. This is simple common sense. I would love to work part-time, but I wouldn't be able to afford to live. Therefore, I have a full-time job, and I am able to pay my bills and have a little extra for vacations, eating out, grabbing drinks with friends, etc. It sucks being an adult and having to work full-time, but that's life.

Does anyone understand what the dear boy at R20 is trying to say?

I've turned sour on unions. I was a former union steward for 15 years. I spent 80% of my time protecting 20% of the worst employees in grievances. Most of these employees should have been terminated, but fortunately for them, I was good at my job. 73% of the union dues collected went to simply running the union. There has to be a better way to achieve the desired outcome rather than unions.

R26, apparently people who work part-time are lazy-ass bastards who don't deserve more money, therefore unions are bad. That's what I got out of it.

The poster doesn't seem to understand the world of part time jobs. If you have these McJob type gigs, many of those people would love more hours and to be made fulltime, but their job isn't going to give it to them.

R29, if employers aren't giving workers full-time work, workers could either get another part-time gig so their total work hours would be 40+ or they could get a full-time job with an employer. In the beginning of my career, I was an adjunct professor at 3 different colleges until I finally landed a full-time position with one of them. I've always worked full-time, but my time was split among 3 different employers. It wasn't an ideal situation, but I was able to afford to live.

I think what R5 is pointing out is that a low six figure income in SF is not the same as a low six figure income on Des Moines.

I think pieces like this stick to white people so Repugs and racists can't blame their homelessness on their being a POC. .

At least it's not Russia.

I went to Vienna. People there can be cold.

Thanks R24. That’s interesting - surprising how little difference between states. TX at $3700 and CA at $4200! Despite massively greater housing, cost of living and taxes in CA. Explains why middle class loves TX.

There are times I hate living in a high cost area. I do work way more (60+ hours week) in a much more stressful job than the average American where I’m expected to be on call 24/7, I know I’m lucky to make what I do and live where I do. But there are definitely trade-offs. I fantasize all the time about living a simple life in a small house/apt in Flyoverstan and working 30 hours week. But I know it’s a fantasy.

The sick income disparity of CEOs vs workers - which is what OPs article is about - is a bigger issue. Capitalism without restraint naturally ends up there. Time for some socialism. Which, tbh, is what NY and CA offer to some extent - much higher taxes but much greater services for the poor. Yet most billionaires choose to live in these states - which blows away the myth that raising taxes makes the rich run away.

R33 Why is it w fantasy? I hear people say that all the time but you can more to middle America and get a low stress job and love the “fantasy” life very easily. What’s stopping you? Is it family commitments? Financial commitments?

I know several people who moved to the Midwest and it was very easy to find jobs and housing. 3 of them now own a home and love the simple life. 1 moved home to his parents town and 1 came back to LA. It’s very doable.

And the other down side to earning $18.000/year and paying into social security is that you have little chance to save money for your retirement and when you do retire your SS won't even pay for your rent.

[quote]many of those people would love more hours and to be made fulltime, but their job isn't going to give it to them.

The reason many jobs don’t want to give full time hours, is because they don’t want to provide full-time benefits, specifically healthcare.

This problem would be eliminated if employers were taken out of the health insurance equation, by having government-administered Medicare for All.

Team Warren.

Warren is the only one with a focus and knowledge on income inequality issues. This was her area of study for years. I first loved her when she wrote about it like 20 years ago. The possibility that she could be running for President would have never occurred to me. It’s a dream come true. Bernie is a relatively simplistic politician In comparison.

Hard to believe.

[quote] R35: And the other down side to earning $18.000/year and paying into social security is that you have little chance to save money for your retirement and when you do retire your SS won't even pay for your rent.

Whoa there lassie. Most people collect more from SS than they paid in. This isn’t a valid criticism.

I make $12.50 at Macy’s.

R39 - is that true. I can’t imagine. Of course, my parents died before retirement so I think of the of the whol retirement thing as benefiting those with better genes.

Most of my family members died very young. 3/4 grandparents died in their 60s. 2 uncles gone already at 55 and 61 so they got nothing for what they paid in. On the other hand my ex’s grandfather was a cop and retired at 55. His widow lived to be 100 and received a pension payment until then so they really got every last drop and then some out of that job.

Most job benefits are calculated on a 40 hour workweek. There are tons of employers in the US who are unable or unwilling to provide those benefits, so they restrict workers to fewer hours. By the way, lots of people work 39 hours - because that's the choice their employer gave them . They are still counted as part-time employees. 33% of children now are being raised in single parent households. That's a factor in people not being able to work multiple part-time jobs to make ends meet as some posters above said, trying their best to blame the victims. Most people raised in poor or lower middle class households are unable to attend college. They didn't make a "poor life choice" They weren't really given a choice. Yes, there are a ton of counter examples (poor people who struggled but ultimately dragged themselves out of poverty, dead beats who actually don't want to work more than the bare minimum, etc), but they are outliers rather than exemplifying the real situations most Americans deal with.

Love all the replies. I’m learning something with each one.

R37 Bernie also admitted in 2017 that Warren is his favorite Senator and in 2015 he wrote in his book that he had several private conversations with her to try to get her to run in ‘16 but she wasn’t interested. He also admitted that’s why he chose to run in ‘16.

Let’s not pit them against each other. They’re not attacking each other, neither should we them.

They are my two favorite candidates and pray that they’ve been working together behind the scenes this race to ensure a true Progressive Democrat wins.

[quote] R41: is that true. I can’t imagine. Of course, my parents died before retirement so I think of the of the whol retirement thing as benefiting those with better genes.

Yes, it’s true. See myth #2 on the link.

But I did peek at the Book of Life, and yeah, you’re gonna die right after you retire; so, well, sucks to be you.

R21 writes,

[Quote] The stats show I'm actually very average but so many people on here earn way over 6 figures and live in NY/SF/LA that I think they are in a bit of a bubble.[/Quote]

They are [Italic]Datalounge[/Quote]’s pro-Hillary/anti-Bernie “Democrats.”

R32 A DLer apparently visited Austria and he encountered more racism and homophobia there than in Croatia and Hungary (which I found hard to believe).

Yeah, and then Trump will say he "created" 266K jobs in one month, while no one points out that they're all jobs that make $18K or less per year.

This is really an outrage.

But it’s a glorious economy! Everything is wonderful!!

R20, a lot of employers cut off hours before 40 hours per week, so they won't have to offer benefits. Some people end up with 2 jobs, working 20/25 hours at each, just to try and make ends meet. It doesn't even guarantee it, because the second foot traffic slows, they have employees clock out, before their scheduled time, to trim the payroll even further. Theme parks, retail and convenience stores are notorious for doing this.

I appreciate the focus on the white poor and working classes. For a while most of the upper middle class white people in cities had come to equate poverty with minorities. The upper middle class kids I went to liberal arts school with largely went into non profits, media jobs and social science/academics.

I think they all meant very well but were living in a bubble. Their cleaning lady, gardener, delivery guy, Uber driver was a minority so they forgot about the white poor. They also decide certain groups were victims and needed to be helped - prisoners for example. I’m reminded of the young man killed in the London attack who meant well but thought a terrorist released without evaluation could be turned not a model citizen through poetry. Many of my friends also dreamed of ending the cycle of black urban poverty through creative writing. All of them supported rehabilitating criminals and releasing them ASAP and displayed more concern from the criminal that the victim unless the victims was a minority. The girls couldn’t care less about feminism or women’s rights favoring prisoner’s rights, trans rights and the rights of religious minorities. It was a strange world for a working class kid like me because they had so many huge blind spots and were detached from the country at large.

The only answer is to acknowledge that millions and millions of people are struggling regardless or color or location. Only then will people see the true source of the problem. It’s absurd to have the working and middle classes directing their anger and frustration towards undocumented workers and the few welfare cheats.

I’ll also add that it frustrates me when people tell those struggling to just work harder, learn to code and get an IT job when they rely on this poorly paid labor. Don’t have a cleaning lady, order from Uber eats, travel frequently, order goods online every week and then tell the people working to bring you those services that their labor is so useless you think they should all leave if they don’t like it. A functioning society will always require the vast majority of the population to be worker bees. A society does not function with a bunch of doctors and tech workers. You need end users and patients too.

I make $13.00/hr. working full-time and earn about $20k a year after deductions.

My rent is $500/mo. in a sketchy neighborhood. I have a 20-yr. old car.

I've racked-up $12,000 in credit card debt trying to make ends meet.

I've heard it said that the cost of your home should be equal to one year's pay.

Around here a decent little house in an acceptable neighborhood is about $120,000.

Obviously, people have no choice but to buy one three to four times their yearly household income.

Brilliant, R52. Absolutely brilliant.

[quote] I make six figures, but am below the median income for my city.

Well, here's a little fucking hint for your dumb ass, the United States isn't only composed of cities. There are actually thousands and thousands of towns. These thousands and thousands of towns have small companies that pay shit. The towns that have bigger companies know that they are the only place in town that pays a semi-decent wage (but still a shit wage) and treat the employees like shit. And they do it because these people don't have any other options

While these employers pay shitty, extremely low wages, they also provide expensive, shitty benefits, that just keep going up in price while salaries stay about the same. Meanwhile, insurance, cars, homes, furniture, clothing, food, higher education and every other thing keeps going up in price. See how that works?

Fuck yall. I gotsa my Monday Night footbal, and a galaxy phone where i can text pics of mah dick. Me and my woman don't need lots of money long as we got chick fil A. And my ten old yr pick up truck running jus' fine. I don't need to save money long as i can fill up her tank.

It's true, but they only work one day per year

[quote] if employers aren't giving workers full-time work, workers could either get another part-time gig so their total work hours would be 40+ or they could get a full-time job with an employer. In the beginning of my career, I was an adjunct professor at 3 different colleges until I finally landed a full-time position with one of them.

Well that's so great for you and since it worked for you, it should work that way for every other person on earth. Why don't you wake the fuck up to the real realities of the bullshit you are spouting off about? You have no idea about anything. Here's a clue for you Einstein, the world doesn't exist on school teacher hours. No it doesn't. Most cities and towns in America run on a 24 hour a day schedule. I bet you are shocked to find this out.

Where are all these second jobs who are going to provide flexible hours so a person can have 2 jobs? . And even if these people have 2 jobs, how are they going to be able to afford health insurance? If they could even afford to buy health insurance on their own, the chances of them being able to afford to use it (with $5,000 to $7,000 deductibles) is slim to none

Most jobs in towns, there are over a hundred people applying for that job. Even shitty part time, minimum wage jobs. A car wash in town advertised for a part time, minimum wage ($7.25 per hour) cashier who would have to stand outside in Georgia's 98 degree sun during the summer and received over 250 responses on Craigslist. No fucking place that has 250 responses for a shitty job like that is going to agree to let their employee have off certain days and only work certain hours so they can work another job. NO THEY AREN'T. They're going to hire someone who will work whatever hours and days they give them

Your home should be worth one year’s salary? Not for decades has that been true for the majority. I believe the median salary for families is 47,000. Give or take a few thousand depending on the location. There’s very, very few places where a home is 50,000.

I’m a renter but my sister and her husband earn 80,000 combined and bought the smallest house they could find in a so-so neighbourhood. It was 270,000. My cousin in Ireland and her husband (2 teachers) are currently trying to qualify for a mortgage on a cookie cutter home in an estate in a Dublin suburb. The mortgage will be for €300,000 with a 60,000 deposit required. They earn about 70K between them. The biggest insult is that this house is a former council house so they are are handing over 8 years of savings and going 300,000 into debt for a house that is “worse” than the ones they were raised in. If you’re single forget it. I have some savings but could never qualify for a mortgage on my salary alone. I’ve thought about moving but then I would take a pay cut. It’s like navigating a maze out there.

Did Bill Clinton get revenge on anyone who voted to impeach or remove him?

I guess he made Gingrich exit Air Force one via the rear door, but he did get to ride in the first place. Gingrich subsequently made a fuss and appeared to be a fool, so it worked well for Bill.

Anyone else?

Sorry, wrong thread.

[Quote]. I believe the median salary for families is 47,000.

That's an individual, median household income is about 62k

But yes, I have never heard anyone make a claim about a house being one year's salary. That is ridiculous on its face.

I appreciate threads like this because they remind me what a bubble I live in and how fortunate I am. I live in a big city and make over $200k, and my husband makes about the same. Most of my friends do about the same, and sometimes I think that I'm not saving "enough" or that I can afford something I happen to want at the time. This reminds me to be grateful for my good luck, and not to complain, certainly not to others.

As a household that makes 400k you definitely need to realize that you are in an incredibly privileged position compared to most people r64.

I don't do as well as that, but do okay for myself and I actually like visiting some relatives who are fairly poor/working class. Reminds me how a lot of people live and how I should be grateful for the life I have.

My bro revealed his salary to me at age 60. It was $400k more than I imagined. I said, “Billy! if you remember your roots, you can save in one year enough to retire on (well, not really, but maybe in three years).

That was after I told him how proud our Dad would be. My Dad used to have dreams about finding money. His family lost most everything in the Depression, when his Dad got sick, and then died too young. Some days, his Mom would make him mashed potato sandwiches for lunch. Do you think that was a money saving thing, or just a cultural one? (Btw, he was rail thin.)

Okay, since this thread is still here, I'll share (although I'll probably be ripped to shreds). I net about $2000 per month. When I told my BF that, he gravely said, "I think I we may need to rethink this relationship". Yet I've kept his business afloat. I own a house, and it's paid for. Wages vary from state to state, and region to region. There are houses in my neighborhood selling for $10K. A couple of my friends have expressed reservations about vising me "in the ghetto", and I've just told them, "then, don't visit". I grew up here. This is my home.

I made good money in my 30s and saved like a fiend. It was a high stress, 24/7 job of absolute misery. By my 40s, I was having severe depression and anxiety. Insomnia, health issues, alcohol issues - taking medication to sleep for the few hours I wasn’t working just to get through the day / week. Unsustainable. I finally had to quit late 40s. Became suicidal.

Still recuperating - but have gotten off pills, alcohol and am finally realizing life is worth living. But now money is an issue and I don’t know how I’m going to make it to retirement. Despite aggressive saving, it still wasn’t enough - based on the amount “professionals” say you should have. I don’t know how people do it - and think it’s insane that not only have we not had a socialist revolt, but we are voting to cut taxes on the rich and corporations.

R68, I had the same experience making a lot of money, drugs and alcohol and starting over.

I'm happier making less money, but it's a lot harder to live on a lower salary now than when I was in college (in the 1990s). I was able to put myself completely through college with a minimum wage job. Now, I couldn't even afford the books with a minimum wage job

r56, the point is that not every location in the U.S. has 44% of its population making 18k. There are locations where most of the people make much more than that.

[quote]I actually like visiting some relatives who are fairly poor/working class. Reminds me how a lot of people live and how I should be grateful for the life I have

That's one of the most elitist things I've read on Datalounge and I've been here nearly 20 years. You like to go visit your poor relations to make yourself feel better? Pathetic.

[quote]they forgot about the white poor

No one ever, ever forgot the whites. That's propaganda and it's no surprise the Sanders supporters are trotting it out again.

The seeds of this "forgotten man" trope were planted in the 1980s when Reagan went out of his way to reassure the poor and working class whites that they were being listened to, while the "others" weren't. The others were people like black welfare queens and illegal Mexicans and they were made fun of by everyone from Reagan himself to Johnny Carson. They weren't really working class, that was a status that belonged to the good solid white folks of America.

As we moved forward culturally we started including the others as we always should have, and "working class" no longer meant primarily whites. And because white people weren't hearing "the white working class" all the time and instead only heard "working class," they decided they were forgotten. Then they'd see a story on Fox News about a so-called welfare queen and make up stories about how only blacks (and Jews, in NYC) could get welfare and it was unfair because we all know they're scammers, right?

Maybe you're sincere and you think this is a serious problem that Bernie (or whoever) will rectify, but if so, you just don't realize you're being played. You're contributing to the typical elitist tactic of pitting races against each other by saying the white working class was forgotten and the government only cared about working class people who weren't white, and that we have to "remember the whites" to save the country.

I work a zero hours contract and would love to take another job to bring my wages up. Its impossible though because my hours are so unpredictable, some days I work a full day and other days only a couple of hours. Having two part time jobs isn't possible for everyone.

[quote] I don’t know how people do it - and think it’s insane that not only have we not had a socialist revolt, but we are voting to cut taxes on the rich and corporations.

It truly is insane, especially given the low voter-turnout rates.

My husband and I make excellent salaries but I feel that, no matter what your salary, everything adjusts upward to fit your salary and you just feel middle class.

We live in a nice house, in a nice suburb, of a nice city. We’re never particularly extravagant. Yet, at the end of the month, the pay check seems to have dwindled.

That said, we are able to save for retirement and that takes a huge chunk of our pay. We’re also very cognizant of not overspending so we have a large pool of savings for a rainy day

There'd be no need for unions if the labor laws already on the books were enforced. And yes, it would be nice if they were competently and ethically managed. But I owe everything I have to unions. The truth is that if employers could get away with using slaves, they would. They have to be leveraged into paying a living wage.

R8: It's increasingly difficult for people to find housing in DC that accepts subsidies and there's a waiting list for many kinds of subsidized housing. A limited number of providers accept Medicaid. What looks generous often isn't.

Why? stagnated wages and zero support from the republicans. Union busting regulations, no minimum wage increase and huge tax cuts for corporates who pay almost no income tax.

There are many people with high incomes who do not belong to a union.

r75, I'm not criticizing you or even accusing you of lying about spending habits but thats what capitalism is. We are all trying to keep up with the joneses. You are spending more than what you make from within your upper middle class circle now. Perhaps not a bad thing; a stressful thing. But is it so bad to constantly crave what you don't have. As long as you aren't spending yourself into debt, greed is good.

r79 never said there wasn't but the power of collective bargaining ensures workers get raises. Not bullshit cost of living wages that stagnate below inflation. I make a decent living and have gotten a 1-2% raise every year. When you factor in inflation, I make less than I did when I started. I when I laid that out to HR they told me "you are well paid for what you do." HR creates mistrust among employees. Employees should all know what each other make. Instead HR frowns on it and tells you it is illegal or you can be fired for sharing that info. No you can;t.

Solution: bring more legal and illegal immigrants

CBS has reported on this now.

The downside of economic freedom is that many people make very bad choices in their life.

The downside of unchecked capitalism is businesses will try to exploit workers as much as they can, and pay them as little as they can get away with.

It’s not hard to exploit them if they make very bad choices.

Unchecked capitalism is the problem. They’ve had their taxes cut in 1/2, overtaken all Mom and Pops and farms, control the workforce and our democracy. People always made bad choice and bad things happen. What is different now is the game is so stacked against humanity and the average person.

People are stuck in a time warp. They think $15.00/hr. is the gold standard (it may have been in 1988).

To me, you'd have to make at least $20/hr. to be above poverty level today. For a fulltime job, that would be about $33k a year after deductions. Try to live the America Dream on that. Think you can buy a house; a new car; save for retirement on that?

Considering lots of people are working hard and making less than 15/hr r88, yes currently 15/hr is still a gold standard that society hasn't been able to reach.

And you are conflating different concepts r88.

You have

1) Poor

2) Lower middle-class

3) Middle-class

4) Upper middle-class

5) Wealthy

Being able to afford a nice house, a new car, and save a lot for retirement means you are probably an upper-middle househould.

It's the GOP big business way. Pay low wages and never full-time work so you don't have to pay benefits or health insurance. Legislate women's bodies so abortions are impossible to get and create a permanent class of people totally dependant on the government who will vote for those who continue to keep them stuck in their station in life. Poor whites, who will blame their poverty on minorites, turn to Jesus for everything else and vote for Republicans who have no interest in changing any of that.

Say it again, sistah:

[quote]The downside of unchecked capitalism is businesses will try to exploit workers as much as they can, and pay them as little as they can get away with.

What is minimum wage in California ?

[quote] The downside of economic freedom is that many people make very bad choices in their life.

The downside of economic freedom are people are stuck in the classes they are born in no matter what they try

In April, 2016, California Gov. Jerry Brown signed the state's $15-an-hour minimum wage law into effect. As a consequence, the minimum wage went from $10 an hour to $10.50 an hour for businesses with 26 or more employees on January 1, 2017

American Capitalism is as close to the true aim of capitalism as Stalinism was to communism.

Lareg companies work to subvert capitalism by skewing laws in their favor

I know people who make minimum wage and I know people who make millions. It is my experience that money does not equate with happiness or a good life. I find it's quite the opposite.

[quote]I've heard it said that the cost of your home should be equal to one year's pay.

I never have. I think it was 3x-4x when I was growing up a million years ago.

I found this historical ratio chart FWIW. Shiller Case Home Price Index / U.S. Median Annual Income (Household). You can click for different time periods.

That's feel good nonsense r97. If you really knew people who make minimum wage you would know being poor is an incredibly stressful way to live. Not knowing how you are going to make ends meet is a torture.

The science reflects that. People are happier when they make more money, up til about 75k. Having that level of financial security makes life easier.

More money than that however does not increase happiness.

Left off link

R100, the model family via Vanamee is dumb. A model two-parent family that lives in NYC with a vacation home in the Hamptons, kids, private schools, etc. Does the average American even want those things? I already make 75k and although I am not totally satisfied, I definitely do not want most of those things the "model" Vanamee family. I agree with the people in the article who say there probably isn't one-number that applies to all (since 75k in NYC is not the same thing as 75k in Omaha). But 75k if you have 0 debt and are single is a really good number :-).

america is a shithole

I've was dirt poor when I was in my 20's and 30s. I took a second job in a restaurant because I got to eat for free the nights I worked. Working 2 jobs was incredibly stressful. But trying to get by on one shitty job was even worse. Whenever I hear people say "set aside 10 percent for retirement," I want to scream. They have no idea how impossible that statement sounds when you are among the working poor. I counted pennies in order to buy food. I didn't have 5 dollars at the end of the paycheck, much less 10% for retirement.

I did what I had to do, and by a miracle it all worked out and now I have money . Life is very fluid and changeable. Luck plays a huge factor, along with education and good decision making. I don't take my financial success lightly because I know how fleeting it all is.

My experience traveling abroad in Japan and Western Europe as well as having friends from those places, is that their middle-class or lower-middle class live simpler lives materialistically than American middle-class/ lower-middle class people. Better public transportation in those nations mean that cars are not necessary, nor do most people want the headaches of owning cars. Here, I see and know middle-class/ lower-middle class people driving cars they can't afford to own. Why are you financing a car to make payments that are greater than 20% of your income, and how are you getting financing for that? Even people who can afford to make car payments, they're driving these SUV monstrosities, I'm not talking about compact SUVs like Toyota RAV4's and the like, but mid-to large SUVs that guzzle gas and basically you spend same amount of money on gas as car payment.

Also, R21 makes a good point about how high the tax rates are in many of the European nations with government-sponsored services. I think they would give most Americans pause in the array of benefits offered as trade-off for paying upwards of 70-80% income tax. The high VAT in those nations are also not progressive, but they do discourage consumerism among all levels of income, including the large swaths of middle-class people.

Education including university is less costly or even free in many of those nations, but it is very competitive to get into university. Unlike here, where we encourage people to go to college and get any degree, even if they're not cut out for college. In Europe and Japan they make you take entrance exams that are designed to weed out people who don't belong in universities, here it is the opposite. Universities make sure they have remedial courses in English and math for students who never should've been admitted in the first place. They're more likely to flunk out, drop out, or graduate with a degree that won't earn them more than $40k if they're lucky, plus now they've got huge burden of student loans without the prospect of a great salary to offset the loans.

I'm in the same student loan hell but I applied for those loans knowing I have the earning potential to afford them. Still, I'm far from rich despite making mid-100k range salary. After tax deductions including modest contributions to 403k, my take-home or net salary is about $8k a month, and that is middle-class in Bay Area. My student loans and rent takes up over half of my salary, but hey I'm not complaining and count myself lucky. I tell myself if worse comes to worse, I can always work part-time into my 60s if I have to, many of my colleagues in healthcare do so anyways because they love their jobs so much. I'm lucky in that tele-medicine and the nature of my specialty allow me to see patients too. But while automation works in my favor, it is also killing jobs for many as Andrew Yang is putting forth in his message. A family getting by on $30k a year is not going to survive if one earner loses her receptionist job in the medical office because people can check themselves in now like I see in certain clinics and it's likely to become a trend.

R94 Why not the $15 an hour stated in the law?

And many voted for Trump because they believe he understands their struggle.

This could be a huge issue for whoever the nominee is this year: the job numbers are bullshit

Why papers like the NYT and WaPo report them like gospel is another story, but the vast majority of Trump Era job creation has been for crappy low wage jobs, often with zero benefits.

The gap between all the Millennials who have crap jobs like that plus tens of thousands in student loan debt and those of us with high paying jobs, parental support and zero loan debt is going to make today's level of inequality look like communism.

Warren’s area of study and expertise is the working poor, economic inequality and bankruptcy. The fact that she is not the most attractive candidate to the working poor is the story of the failure of democracy.

Refugee welcome

R109 Um, what?

Can you believe what a relief it would be for so many to have guaranteed healthcare, college, and child care without having to go bankrupt?

The $75K figure, BTW, is from 2008/09.

And never mentioned are variables of location and household size.

But maybe better than no rule of thumb at all.

Now: How does society get people from $18,000 a year to $75,000 a year?

[quote]many voted for Trump because they believe he understands their struggle.

The guy has difficulty understanding his toilet's struggle.

[Quote] Now: How does society get people from $18,000 a year to $75,000 a year?

Apparently not American society. Despite all the promises of riches, we have the least upward mobility in the developed world—only 5% change classes

R114 The American DREAM.

[quote]I've heard it said that the cost of your home should be equal to one year's pay.

I think what you heard might have been that the down payment on your home should be equal to one year's pay. So, if you are putting 20% down and make $40,000 a year you could afford a house that costs $200,000. That makes actual sense.

Why Bernie and Liz will win.

I just looked up the stats and 4.9% of American workers hold multiple jobs. To be honest I thought the number would be higher and it changes my perspective. It means a lot more of those 44% are relying on a median of $18,000 as their SOLE income. If you take out the students, housewives and early retirees picking up part time work that suits them that leaves something like 20% of the population working poor (simply unable to cover the basics like food, shelter utilities and health care).

Once you're in that spot it seems increasingly difficult to get out of it. Between zero hours contracts, rising education costs, and few entry level jobs with prospects the standard exits from poverty are getting blocked. You can't get a second job and save for college, you can't take a sort term wage cut and do a internship/apprenticeship/cadetship that will lead to something better.

No wonder the whole van life, off grid, tiny house stuff is so big. If your prospects of earning a living wage are near zero your best option is to change the way you live. Ditch the rent, taxes and utilities and $18,000 is a comfortable income.

Of course, in the long run that's part of the death spiral. The people who choose to work less, consume less and ditch their taxes might be making a sound personal decision, by dropping out of the economy that's one less producer and consumer.

[quote] Why are you financing a car to make payments that are greater than 20% of your income, and how are you getting financing for that?

After I paid off my last car, which I owned for ten years, I decided not to finance in the future. I like not having a car payment and wasting money on interest. When I bought my current car, I just wrote a check for the full amount. That’s the way to go.

[quote] It means a lot more of those 44% are relying on a median of $18,000 as their SOLE income.

Sole income but not sole means of support. Government benefits have to be added in.

[quote]Government benefits have to be added in.

Like what?

Health care? Food? Rent?

R120 is a fucking idiot. Please regale me with all the government benefits someone making under $20000 in America get, especially if they are a single adult. There is nothing.

[quote] After I paid off my last car, which I owned for ten years, I decided not to finance in the future. I like not having a car payment and wasting money on interest. When I bought my current car, I just wrote a check for the full amount. That’s the way to go.

Not if you can get 0% interest. It's funny that on a thread discussing trying to survive on under $20,000 a year, you think people can just save up the amount of money necessary to buy a car outright. Some of you are so out of touch it's shocking.

This was a great book on the subject

Apropos.

R124, I can't wait for those voters to riot against Bernie once he can't deliver all those promises he made.

R125 Are you a Republican or Neoliberal?

It’s okay to admit either. You shouldn’t feel embarrassed or ashamed...

R126, no. You don't have to be either of those things to dislike Bernie. His healthcare plan is underestimated by, what, a trillion dollars or so (literally)? His plans are just money spending sprees at their core. The media has been very easy on him. There is plenty of dirt on him to go around and when he runs, it will be just as bad as the Labour loss in the UK this week.

Voters thought Trump was going to fix all this. He was going to drain the swamp; bring jobs back to the U.S.; improve the infrastructure; introduce Trumpcare, the incredibly wonderful alternative to Obamacare... make America great again.

Did it happen?

If they vote him in again they deserve what they get.

Florida wages are laughably low yet cost of living keeps rising and yet everybody wants to move there because of weather apparently (the weather there sucks). That state will collapse in the future.

R127, I know where we can get a few trillion dollars right quick. Repeal the Bush and Trump tax cuts, there's trillions of dollars freed up for health care.

Isn’t it a problem that everyone sees themselves as middle class? Plumbers and receptionists think they are middle class. Teachers and nurses and middle managers think they are middle class (traditionally there were the middle class) but now people in the top 5% taking home 6 figures also think they are just middle class!! That is the most shocking to me. Yes I get that when you live in NY/LA/SF, pay rent and save for retirement you are not going to drive around in a Rolls and spend your summers in St Tropez but you are educated, you are living in nice homes and you are saving for retirement. That was always seen as an upper middle class lifestyle. That already puts you ahead of 75% of Americans. Most people are either not saving for retirement at all or they are saving far too little. The couple here earning 400K “feel” middle class. I mean they’re in the top 2%, why are they feeling like that? I wonder if we’re comparing apples and oranges as a society? When I was a kid an upper middle class family had 2 cars, an annual vacation, a nice home, investments and savings and some extras. It seems to me upper middle class families still do have all those things but they no longer feel privileged, they feel they are just middle class. Hmmmmmm. Who are they comparing themselves to? The number of ultra rich has grown so perhaps now upper middle class families are comparing themselves to those people are feeling shortchanged? Whereas 30 years ago the upper middle class had fewer ultra rich to make them feel inferior.

Leaving aside the economic discussion it just seems like such a waste and a pity that someone who is clearly privileged and among the highest earners in the western world could feel “meh” and a bit depressed about their situation.

Some other thoughts on some of the posts 1) in Western Europe a doctor would be luckily to see 6 figures. More like 50-70K for a 40 y/o doc in France for example. That same doctor would not be getting government benefits and would be paying very high taxes. A nurse would be in the 30-40K range. Maybe some perspective.

2) it’s not fair to say that people earning low wages made poor lifestyle choices. I’ve come to the conclusion that having parents who are self sufficient and can offer you support is the gold ticket in life. When your parents are struggling and you need to support them you’re starting with such disadvantage I don’t think you can ever recover. Almost all of my (lower middle class) friends are supporting their parents in some way now. Almost all of my upper middle class friends have received support from their parents in the past, are not supporting their parents now (the parents are home owners, have pensions, have health insurance..) and will inherit money when their parents pass. My lower middle class friends have struggled to pay for their parents’ funerals by comparison. - A lot of younger people are educated but cannot get secure jobs with good benefits. They get contract jobs, flexi jobs, jobs that hire them as independent contractors etc and when they can get a job the benefits are a pale imitation of what they were even a decade ago. I work with a few kids who went and got a second degree or a masters in STEM because they were told during the crash that would be the true guarantee. They quickly found that moving to the larger cities with their qualification just led to a barista job and offers of contract work and internships. Contrary to popular myth you cannot just study STEM and walk into a 6 figure job at Google. A law degree is often an expensive burden for a young person from a modest background without connections. I work with kids with law degrees who feel lucky to have this job. 30 years ago they could have landed this job (with better benefits) with an Associate’s or a high school education if they had connections.

Great points R131. The inheritance of financial stability isn’t just money - it’s not having to pay for your parents from an early age and not worrying about money at an early age. Father died poor at 60. I started working at 22 out of college and have been supporting my mother for 30 years. That is a chunk of money that I don’t have as my own safety net - while most fiends are waiting for their inheritance to fund their retirement or upgraded apartment.

The only good thing is the work ethic. I never had the luxury to “do what you love”. I had bills to pay. Worked 60-70 hour weeks for decades and am still terrified of not having money. I believe in socialism.

R131 Great post.

R132 I hear you. Good for you and I commend you on your discipline and sense of responsibility.

Oh well big dummies won't vote. Half of these cunts either voted for Trump or didn't vote at all. America is the dumbest rich nation, and that will soon be over with as far as being the most powerful. The quality of life was so great in America that the dummies reproduced tenfold and outnumber us all.

LAWD.

Usurers have destroyed America

[quote]But yes, I have never heard anyone make a claim about a house being one year's salary. That is ridiculous on its face.

I heard that growing up in the 70's. My father was an engineer at an aerospace tech company maybe making about 30,000 a year. We bought, lived in and sold a lot of shitty houses because he was also a licensed General contractor. Sort of like flipping like they do today but back then no such thing, you couldn't get loans for spec like that so we lived in shit hole houses for about a year fixing on the weekends and when they finally got livable, he would sell and it would be back in another shitty house. I think the average price for a 10 year old house in an middle class neighborhood that was clean, safe and in a suburb was about 25,000 - 40,000. So yeah depending on your income it was in fact equal to one year's salary. No one made much money doing that, so most people stayed put back then.

But that was really the beginning of the end. Interest rates started going up, house values went up people started buying and selling like crazy. The rest is history. Salaries never even came close to matching that ever again.

Even though both my parents worked, we could have lived off just his salary for a family of 4. And he had a lot of spare time, 40 hours a week was actually the social norm, unlike today where usually it ends up being 50 or 60. Can you imagine the life you could have today if your salary would be lose to the cost of a typical house?

R137 Amazing.

Great economy!!!

I am living on 1,800. a month and am doing fine here in East Jesusville. My share of the housing expenses is about 400. a month. My car is paid for and now that I am retired I hardly use it. I have one to two overseas trips a year and a few short local ones. Most of the extra money goes for travel. Aside from the holidays it is a very slow life. The days involve reading library books, trips to the gym, cooking, gardening and pet care. It isn't as exciting as when I was 23 in San Francisco but at my age I enjoy the peaceful life.

$30,000 in 1970 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $198,872.16 in 2019

It was not in any way a normal salary for Americans.

The U.S. average in 1970 was $6,186.

The average home price in 1970 was about $24,000.

Or, about four times the average annual wages of $6,186 noted above.

link, sorry

R142 - you have my ideal,retirement. I need to get somewhere that housing and living is cheap. Though I think I’d have a problem sharing a house. But with al these multi-millionaire retirement threads, it’s good to remember it can be done on much less than a million.

r145, to combine threads, you can can go to Cleveland and pick up this house with three apartments for $80K. And take minivacations at Flex Spa down the street!

Well done R146 - brilliant cross referencing! Though that neighborhood in Cleveland is a no-go from my experience. East of 20th is sketchy and gets sketchier the closer you get to East Cleveland.

Which is why I don’t get why FlexSpa is there. One of the nicest bathhouses in America but surrounded by ghetto. If you don’t have a car to park in their enclosed lot, you have to call a taxi to get you at the front door.

Cost of living varies so widely by location. But inflation everywhere is insane. I remember getting into the workforce and thinking of I made 100k a year one day (this was mid 90s) I’d be rich. Made That living in dallas 10 years ago and lived like a long. I made more than double that now in nyc and live check to check and I don’t live extravagantly. I’m not ooor bit my life does not feel like someone who makes more than 250k a year. I live in a great area Of Manhattan in a pre war. No doorman. No gym. No dishwasher. Rent and taxes and the cost for everything in big cities is unfathomable. We went to dinner last night and each had an entree and two small apps and two glasses of wine and the bill was $198 pre tip. And this place was listed as $$/$$$. I usually only now get drinks at a happy hour or go Without as a cocktail or glass Of wine on many nyc restaurants is $16-$18. I know I’m lucky to make such good money and can’t imagine how people making so little do it. I grew Up super poor with factory worker parents. I’m grateful for where I’m at but scared for the future. The constant inflation isn’t sustainable.

How the hell do they survive on $18K a year. Hell the minimum I've made in the last 30 year is $35K and the last 20 have been six figure jobs. Put it this way if I calculate my car payment, insurance and housing it comes to $21,012 per year. That's not even counting food and utilities. So how do they afford a place and a car?

Part of the problem is that so many people think that what they earn and what they get paid are the same.

If you get paid $500K, does your labor actually create that much value? Or rather do you get paid that much while the value is being created by people making a lot less than you?

Certainly people getting paid one million or more do not actually earn it. That is not humanly possible.

R20 you idiot they only give people 30 hrs so they don't have to give any benefits. Typical victim blaming.

The shitty US system is why communists and dictators eventually take over. Personally Im ready to see some violence and bloodshed, that's the only way things will change. Wait until no one can drink the water because someone has poisoned it or they cut off the power. That'll get things moving. I'm white and I really hate the WASP's and all the rich people. Remember what they did during the French revolution.

Something to think about:

[quote] If you get paid $500K, does your labor actually create that much value? Or rather do you get paid that much while the value is being created by people making a lot less than you?

I can't wrap my head around a doctor only making 50K. At that rate what's the point of the extra work if I'm not even cracking six-figures?

Because it's not true r154. The average salary for a primary care physician in France is about 95k, still much lower than America, but not 50k.

There is no reason for this to be the case.

"The problem with America is that people who make $700 an hour have convinced the people who make $25 per hour that those people who make $10 an hour are ruining the country. "

r157, Where did you get that from. Is that original? You should write for the NY times.

[quote] R69: I'm happier making less money, but it's a lot harder to live on a lower salary now than when I was in college (in the 1990s).

Haha, you made me laugh! I also remember when I was in college in the 1970s, if you had a prepaid meal ticket for meals M-F, and were inventive, you could literally go weeks with zero dollars in your wallet.

After graduation, my first place had only three monthly bills: rent, cable, and electric. My car was paid off, so that could have been a forth monthly bill. These days, I have two mobile devises; mortgage fee, HOV fee; three property insurance plans; long term care insurance; electric; Comcast, and property tax for car and home. My car is paid off, again. So, that’s 12 recurring bills. Plus credit cards, but those aren’t recurring expenses. It's much more difficult to function as part of society today, if you have no money at all.

R157 I totally agree with r158. I just cut and pasted sent it out to friends. Truer words were never been spoken!

Life is hard . It is harder when you can't see forest for the trees.

Life is hard . It is harder when you can't see forest for the trees.

r158 r160 I saw that quote on a friend's Facebook. If I knew who the original author was, I would have gladly given credit.

Again, this should not be the case.

The real problem is the group who wants to make $700/hour, but have no skills to justify it. Same for those who want minimum wage to be $25/hour. You have to think- how many burgers to I have to flip to justify $25 each hour?

R165 not really the same thing because if minimum wage had the buying power from the 1970s, minimum wage would have to be around $20 an hour. That's back when minimum wage work was considered a stepping stone for those new to the job market. We should ask why flipping burgers 50 years ago was somehow worth more and justified, but suddenly it's not.

That's because the specific dollar amount of the wage shouldn't be the focus when determining the value of labor, when it all depends on the buying power of that dollar. What good is a minimum wage of $100 an hour, if the bare minimum cost to survive requires more like $1000?

The whole economy and job market needs to be taken into consideration as well. The more society progresses with technology and the more jobs that can be outsourced globally, those jobs left over, that can only be filled by people locally, should have some justification for gaining more value.

r165, what skills are worth $700 an hour?

Amazing, R166.

Why?

The original minimum wage was about 62 Cents an hour, paid by Henry Ford in the early 1900s. That 62 cents had more than 2x the buying power of the federal minimum wage today.

It always amazes me when people say that job is so simple, they are just doing this or just doing that. Have you ever worked in a hot greasy kitchen with bitchy customers and not even expect a tip? Have you ever worked in a checkout register in a market where you cant even leave to take a shit until you get your legal 5 minute break every 2 hours? It's not that easy, I did both of those when I was young.

In a capitalistic society money is not equal to how hard you work, it's equal to the demand. Dose a guy basically playing a game hitting a ball on a field really work more than an paramedic saving your life? Dose a CEO of a bank really put in blood sweat and tears earning 250 times more than Fireman risking his life to save your own? No of course not. So stop with the justification bullshit you have going on in your head about who deserves minimum wage and who doesn't. Bottom line, you are just looking for excuses to justify why you deserve to be paid fair but others are not.

Preach, R171.

Half our country is in poverty, but let’s cut SS, Medicare and other benefits whilst giving tax breaks and subsidies to the rich and apathetic.

Not ever household makes 66K it is an average that includes above the poverty like to the billionaire .1% ers. It is called screwing the curve.

CEOs are sociopathic con artists who have convinced corporate boards that they “need” them. Then cronyism ensure if they do get fired, their contract pays them millions in severance. While the average worker is lucky to get 2 weeks pay - maybe $1,000. It’s corrupt. People say socialism leads to corruption - but ignore that it is already corrupt.

For example if take 1000 people and 999 of them make 10K a year and 1 makes 10 million a year, the average income is 19,990 k a year. Keep in mind 1% of the population controls 99% of the wealth

You think Doomberg will attract these voters?

Answers please.

DID YOU FUCKING KNOW????????