Funny Lady: did it have to be SO bad?

[quote] It was the dumbest move in recent show biz history and it shows.

"recent'???

It was forty-five years ago!

The beginning of Streisand's transformation into a drag queen.

I agree. What the hell WAS he thinking?

[quote]It was the dumbest move in recent show biz history

Ya gotta love DL.

Better question about recent show biz: Who's the better actress--Mary Pickford or Lilian Gish?

In “recent show biz” history, i was only 96!

Funny Lady was a mess of a movie but even at its worst it was still better than the abominations that Babs directed: Mentl, Prints of Tide and Mirror Has Two Fugly Faces.

They wanted me, but my brother insisted on the James Caan role

Although she was contractually bound to make one more film for producer Ray Stark (Fanny Brice's one-time son-in-law), Streisand balked at doing the project. She told Stark "that it would take litigation to make her do a sequel." However, Streisand liked the script, which showed Fanny to be "...tougher, more acerbic, more mature..."

Although she was contractually bound to make one more film for producer Ray Stark (Fanny Brice's one-time son-in-law), Streisand balked at doing the project. She told Stark "that it would take litigation to make her do a sequel." However, Streisand liked the script, which showed Fanny to be "...tougher, more acerbic, more mature..."

Streisand explained: "It comes down to whom the audience wants me to kiss. Robert Blake, no. James Caan, yes."

The film grossed $40,055,897 at the U.S. box office, making it the seventh highest grossing picture of 1975.

Behind

6 - The Return of the Pink Panther

5 - Shampoo

4 - Dog Day Afternoon

3 - One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest

2 - The Rocky Horror Picture Show

1 - Jaws

r9=Howard Brackett

Ya gotta love the "recent history" comment. I went to see a production of "Hair" last weekend. I saw the original in 1970 when I was 18. I realized that it was nearly 50 years ago, and when I was 18, 50 years ago was 1920--which definitely seemed like ancient history to me. So for the young people in the production, I can only imagine what they think of the late sixties period they were portraying. REALLY made me feel old, as someone who had lived through some of the events depicted in the play.

The film fulfilled her 5 picture contract with Ray Stark that she signed before Funny Girl. She was beyond thrilled to no longer be his slave.

After Funny Lady wrapped, she sent Stark an antique mirror with the words "PAID IN FULL!" written in red lipstick.

R12, what does the gross have to do with it? Are you another numbscull who confuses popularity with quality?

"The songs are forgettable"

That's the new songs, the old ones are fine. The issue is that they cut off most of them mid-song, for unfunny comic affect or to go to the next scene.

Whatever Streisand wanted the character to be, it had no relation to the original of Funny Girl. That was a major mistake, turning an appealing ingenue into a bitter old bitch. Older and bitter could have been an interesting and complex character and story, but they didn't want to go there.

Streisand just isn't very funny.

The Swan Lake scene in "Funny Girl" is awful.

And by the time they made this, Streisand was taking herself too seriously to be funny.

Why did she never make the "Funny Grandma" sequel she teased Dick Cavett with?

Sweet Charity is ten times worse

I think any Barbra Streisand musical is going to be fun if only for her singing (at least for those who enjoy it).

In this case, the first half of the film is actually quite lively and funny; it's the second half that gets dreary and uninteresting. It's as though the first half is a musical comedy and the second is a soap opera.

There's also James Caan's undisguised contempt for Roddy McDowall, which is clearly out of gay-hatred. It's odd that Caan in real life has been accused of it, so it might be more than Caan's playing a role. It's uncomfortable to watch, and it makes one wonder if McDowall's screen time was edited down because of this.

Incidentally, the Funny Lady soundtrack album has different takes than the movie, and more of Blind Date, including the slow introductory monologue that was dropped from the film.

[quote]There's also James Caan's undisguised contempt for Roddy McDowall, which is clearly out of gay-hatred.

No, there are literally millions of other reasons to hate Roddy. He's very hateable.

[quote]it makes one wonder if McDowall's screen time was edited

It happens.

[quote]Whatever Streisand wanted the character to be, it had no relation to the original of Funny Girl. That was a major mistake, turning an appealing ingenue into a bitter old bitch. Older and bitter could have been an interesting and complex character and story, but they didn't want to go there.

The problem is that Funny Girl had next to nothing to do with the actual Brice, and was simply a vehicle for Streisand to make a big screen splash.

At least in Funny Lady, she's attempting to portray Brice, from the looks and mannerisms to the actual Yiddish theatre songs. I get it's criticisms, but its a much more enjoyable movie than the original, which has its moments, but ultimately suffers from an uncharismatic leading man, and an overlong story that could have been cut in half.

R23, Funny Girl was a Broadway musical that was bombing before it opened, and Jerome Robbins made THAT into a big Streisand splash, on stage that is. The movie merely tried to replicate it, and it was Barbra's first movie, people expected her - not Fanny Brice. To turn it into more of a Fanny Brice story complete with Yiddish and some Brice-like comedy routines was nuts.

[quote]The problem is that Funny Girl had next to nothing to do with the actual Brice, and was simply a vehicle for Streisand to make a big screen splash.

The problem with Funny Girl was that the producer was married to a relative of Brice's so they had to downplay what a crook Nicky Arnstein was and glamorize Fanny.

The saving grace of the film is Streisand's lovely rendition of "If I Love Again".

To me, Funny Lady is about clothes. Outfit after Bob Mackie over the top outfit. And wigs - Streisand's and James Caan's. I felt the same way about the 1974 Great Gatsby with miscast Robert Redford in the lead. Clothes, clothes, clothes, not much else.

^. I was transfixed back in 1974 by Robert Redford throwing clothes, clothes, clothes at the camera.

I was ashamed that I had a clothes hanging rack at home just 5 feet wide to hang all my clothes, clothes, clothes.

[quote]The saving grace of the film is Streisand's lovely rendition of "If I Love Again".

That is my favorite recording of hers. It's a great song, sung well, with a simple accompaniment.

Funny Lady is absolutely NOT a better movie than Funny Girl.

Except for the few minutes of Streisand singing "People," "Don't Rain on My Parade" and "My Man" in the first one, I don't think EITHER film is very good.

Omar Sharif is simply not a singer. And Streisand is a hammy and mannered dramatic actress.

Streisand is fabulous in Funny Girl. The most spectacular screen debut in film history, which is why she was justly rewarded with an Oscar for her performance.

An Oscar is absolutely no guarantee of a quality performance.

Both movies were great, Funny Girl being a classic. I also like the soundtrack to Funny Lady. I'm a big fan.

MAD magazine was right, though. Streisand pretty much played every character the same, so her spotty film career is a bit like installments from the "Carry On" series, except with Fanny Brice.

Mentl: Fanny Goes Camping In A Shtetl Star Is Born: Fanny With A Jewfro For Pete's Sake: Fanny's Brothel Years Mirror Has Two Faces: Fanny Goes To College Funny Lady: Fanny Does Drag Queen

FL has its moments and at the time I hated A Stor Is Born but rewatched it recently and rather enjoyed it Gaga’s movie stole many things from it.

Well, I love "If I Love Again," a period song sung quietly at the piano. It's a masterpiece. But some of that Kander and Ebb schlock is...painful.

I also find the costumes in FL to be way over the top and distracting.

I remember Pauline Kael ripping FL to shreds in her review. She wrote that Streisand behaved like a female impersonator in the film and that she copied Liza Minnelli in some of her numbers, especially "How Lucky Can You Get". Kael said flat out that the makers of FL wanted to not only emulate the success of "Cabaret" but also surpass it.

IIRC Kael said years later that Streisand called her after reading the review and told Kael that she actually agreed with it.

The same year Liza. Did a film Lucky Lady starring also Burt Reynolds and Gene Hackman. Do we ever talk about that movie ?

OY. That's a stinker. And I was so looking forward to Liza's return to the screen. It's hard to believe that she couldn't find a better property than that.

[R-22] I CAN'T stop laughing at what you wrote. Thank you! Still laughing now.

R12 Why are you lying about the top grossing films? The Rocky Horror Picture show was 34th that year not 2nd, and Three Days of the Condor with Redford and Dunaway was no 6 - and you completely omitted it.

The saving grace of the film is Streisand's lovely rendition of "If I Love Again".

I'd agree with you, R26, if you knew that the period goes inside the quotation mark: ...Streisand's lovely rendition of "If I Love Again." American punctuation, and I'll assume you're American.

Rocky Horror Show is still in its first run, yes STILL so it's numbers are accurate.

Funny Girl is enjoyable until she marries Nick. That last third of the picture drags like crazy.

I think it depends on when you saw it. I saw Funny Girl when it was re-released in 1973, and I LOVED it, the whole movie. I was sixteen. I only knew Streisand as a singer, and had seen her in Clear Day, and What's up Doc. I loved every minute of Funny Girl. If I had first seen it as a 30 year old after drudging through A Star is Born, The Main Event and Yentl, my perspective would be totally different. Btw, not a fan of Funny Lady.

Funny Lady is awful when Streisand does that very hammy, theatric version of "How Lucky Can You Get" alone on the stage.

It's so bombastic. Right down to the swinging light.

R40 I actually enjoy "Lucky Lady" even though it has its flaws. I was so glad when the DVD came out so I could actually hear the line, "It's so quiet here, you can hear a fish fart." Years ago, that line (the ending of a scene) was cut out of the network premiere, and when I saw it on cable years later, they cut out the last word so you only heard "You can hear a fish" which made no sense, but it was obvious by looking at her mouth that she said fart. Also it has a very cute Robby Benson, and her song ("Get while the gettin' is good") is OK, and the montage of the title song is very well edited together. Liza stands out among the three leads and got a Golden Globe nomination for the film. It was a horrible year for actresses so they had to fill out the comedy/musical category, and even with the Oscar nominations, some of those choices are for very obscure, forgotten art films which would have been looked over in a stronger year.

I have never seen Lucky Lady programmed on television. Does TCM ever show it? And speaking of obscure Minnelli films, what about the movie Liza made with her father, A Matter of Time, which also stars Ingrid Bergman and, if I recall, Charles Boyer? I've never seen this movie shown on tv either, not since the 70s when I saw it late at night on a network station.

R50 I recall "A Matter of Time" being on TCM around 2006/2007, perhaps a one time showing. For years, it was only available on a magnetic VHS which were the very first video tapes released, and over time, the copy at the video store I worked at began to skew very badly. Fortunately, it is out on DVD as part of a double bill with the Bette Midler/Ken Wahl disaster "Jinxed" which is pretty much unwatchable. "A Matter of Time" is lovely to look at, and Liza is quite moving in it, but the movie was horribly edited to something that even Vincent didn't recognize. He tried to get his name taken off of the credits, but American International refused. I checked Amazon on the DVD, and it seems to be out of print.

What a shame. I wish Liza would work to release a director's cut, at least to TCM.

I like some aspects of it. "Isn't It Better" and "How Lucky Can You Get" are great songs, but the rest are a bit forgettable. I liked that Streisand wasn't afraid to go full-on unlikable. She looks good in the movie, too. It's just a story that didn't need to be told. There's nothing anyone can learn from or feel much emotion for throughout the movie. It's about a woman who has it all and falls for someone she just sort of likes instead of loves like Nick. That's not much of a plot.

Liza actually sang "Isn't it Better" at a Streisand tribute concert a couple of years back.

"hat about the movie Liza made with her father, A Matter of Time"

AWFUL, even for Liza fans. Bad bad bad, and I don't think a re-cut would make a bit of difference.

That movie Lucky Lady looks so fucking bad!

Funny Girl was like Rocky I. Funny Lady was like Rocky II (and III and IV, etc.). Funny Lady was maybe like the 2nd half of "Coal Miner's Daughter."

FL was almost bound to be disappointing. People love to see the talented underdog, single (not married), and scratching their way to the top. Nobody wanted to see Fanny Brice in a boring marriage.

R35, Mad magazine was often correct.

One of the comments to that abysmal "Lucky Lady" trailer says that Stephen Speilberg was going to direct it, but did Jaws instead.

If true, that is hilarious. He could have done a totally forgotten dud instead of a hit that changed how movies are made/marketed.

Apparently, Liza wasn't crazy about director Stanley Donen who made disparaging remarks about her father. Her character is rather weather beaten and slutty, while with Pookie Adams and Sally Bowles, you could see that they were looking for love (although Sally denied that) which made them seem easy.

What's with Barbra in movies with ex-husbands who never see their children?

At least Omar was called out on it in Funny Lady, but Robert Redford got away with being super-romantic at the end of The Way We Were.

How did that happen, when he was a selfish asshole who had never seen his child?

[Quote]I'd agree with you, [R26], if you knew that the period goes inside the quotation mark: ...Streisand's lovely rendition of "If I Love Again." American punctuation, and I'll assume you're American.

I'm not American.

[R7] that made me spit my tea out of my fucking nose!

I saw a sneak preview of FL and again shortly after it opened. I know there where changes made but I can't remember what they were.

I had the soundtrack album as a teen, loved it. Though I do remember ONCE hearing on the radio a different version of "How Lucky Can You Get." It had a lot more echo, sounded like she was in a hall. I've never been able to find that recording.

On a Clear Day You Can See a Funny Girl Singing Hello Dolly Forever

OP is busy talking on her "new" Slimline Princess phone!

I assume it's aqua, r66.

Indeed, R67.

But all those wrong number calls. Her home is still NOT the Chinese take away!

Little known fact:

Liza was Streisand's original understudy in Funny Girl on Broadway, but was replaced with Lainie Kazan when she got the lead in Flora, the Red Menace.

Little known horseshit, R69. Completely false.

Has Flora, the Red Menace ever been filmed or recorded or produced? I assumed it was a comedy but the article on Wiki makes it sound rather dreary

Stanley Donen was the director of Lucky Lady??? I didn't remember that. I hate Donen. He was also responsible for getting Judy fired from Royal Wedding even when the documentation shows that she showed up every day and was never more than a few minutes late. Donen is a fucking creep. He didn't want to work with Judy, wanted to get rid of her, and because of her reputation, he was able to act as if she was the same mess that she was on Annie Get Your Gun when in fact, she wasn't at all. He's a prick. And I think he's gay! He probably would have been a Trump supporter.

Liza was waaaay to green to understudy any lead performer in 1964, dreamers.

Personally, I got no oobly boobly feelings from Funny Lady.

Ask for Funny Girl, she's the mortgagor, not the mortgagee.

R21

[quote] No, there are literally millions of other reasons to hate Roddy. He's very hateable.

Spill.

"No, there are literally millions of other reasons to hate Roddy. He's very hateable."

What the hell are you talking about? He was friends with everybody, a very well liked figure in Hollywood. I've never heard anything bad about him.

r76 is right--POPULAR people can never be disliked!!!

Think what a fantastic success Funny Girl would have enjoyed if a better singer and actress Like Eydie Gorme had played Fanny Brice on Broadway. She would have won the Tony. Or even Lea Michele.

Streisand is so substandard and her voice was very harsh during that time. She half arsed most of the score. An egotistical bitch from the start. She only wanted to be a Movie Star. Look at the dreck she made of that. She used to be overrated. Now she is thankfully forgotten.

[quote]Has Flora, the Red Menace ever been filmed or recorded or produced?

You want to know if it was ever recorded while posting a photo of the ORIGINAL CAST ALBUM?

Excerpts from "Flora, the Red Menace," featuring DL faves Mary Louise Wilson and Lenora Nemetz.

If it hadn't been for that movie, most people wouldn't have known I even existed.

How Lucky Can You Get??

DIdn't Liza win a Tony for that?

Judy Garland said in an interview that Liza had been cast as Barbra's understudy.

Barbra recorded "A Quiet Thing" from Flora, the Red Menace. It's sublime.

OYE. Barbar looks like Gene Hackman in drag @ R82. Though not as pretty.

Leather on my shoulder and a cock on my lips,

How lucky can you get?

KY in my pocket, right at my fingertips,

How lucky can you get?

Every night's an orgy, where the fun never ends.

You can circle my bed with my circle of friends.

Someone I am horny for is horny for me.

I'm his personal pet.

Wow, how lucky can you get?

Tie me up and fuck me is my favorite phrase.

When I see the chauffeur think I'll give him a raise.

How lucky can you get.

Weekends in the country with my master of course,

and a dildo to choke Mrs. Astor's pet horse...

R83. Yes, Liza Minnelli won the Tony Award for “Flora, The Red Menace,” which I believe was her first leading role on Broadway.

Miss John Simon reviews Funny Lady.

I was molested in Broadway back alley.

I liked the non musical scenes way better than the musical numbers.

Weird, because I thought it would be the exact opposite.

R89 Oh please, Lorna. Who'd molest you that you ain't already fucked.

Pauline Kael famously turned against Barbra upon seeing Funny Lady. Up until then she had been a big fan.

r90, bizarrely, the musical numbers are the weakest part of Funny Lady. Utterly incomprehensible, given Streisand's talent. But the songs are weak and the direction is even worse. And of course those hideous costumes didn't help.

Still lip synching the same dreck 40 years later. People paid for this shit?

Did Babs approach this role as her own "Joan Crawford film"? What with all the grand and somewhat over-the-top outfits, the affected manner of speaking, the constant bitchiness and the overall effect being that of a (to quote Ms Kael) female impersonator, this seems like the kind of role Ms Crawford would have played.

"Judy Garland said in an interview that Liza had been cast as Barbra's understudy"

Judy was HIGH

For all its faults, I think "Funny Lady" moves better than "Funny Girl," which as noted above, gets bogged down in melodrama its last third and becomes no fun. The story is that Fanny Brice, like in "Lady", was considering a return to Broadway when she died suddenly. So are we to assume that the ending of "Funny Lady" is moments before her death?

Barbra is in better voice than expected in that concert clip, but her patter makes me laugh for all the wrong reasons. "You sound like a broken record, girls?" What? "You think it's fun being famous?" Shut up, Barbra. You did this tour to buy a fucking painting. You have no right to complain.

Are you kidding r98? She sounds like someone's drunk aunt at karaoke. She has to have the background singers to drown out all her flat notes. It's so sad to think she wasted all her talented years making shitty movies when she could have been performing live. Her return in the 90's was excellent and her early 2000s return to the stage wasn't too bad either, but everything since 2010 or so has been painful. She doesn't have the voice left to sing some of these songs anymore.

There's a funny part of Kael's review where she comments on a Streisand TV special which featured a duet with Ray Charles:

There was a moment when he was singing and she was harmonizing , listening to him too charmingly, her fingers busy toying on the piano -- dear God, she was stealing scenes from a blind man.

Leslie Kritzer was a terrific Fanny Brice at Paper Mill Playhouse. She always gets huge rounds of applause on stage, but unfortunately doesn't have the name. She was terrific as Salome in "The Robber Bridegroom" and Delia in the otherwise forgettable "Beetlejuice".

You wanna know what it's really like? FAAANNNTAAASSSSTICCCCC

Ewwww. She just shit all over that perfectly fine song.

R98 - You don't know the song very well because the patter is taken from it and not Barbra's new comments.

R103 Are we talking about Kritzer? She can sing, but I can't say I care for that clip. It's a tough song.

R105, yes. I was referring to Kritzer's performance.

R103 Your sentence evokes a very ugly picture.

It's a tough song, but not for Lillias White.

Well, that's much better. I never loved that song, though. The lyrics are weird, all those mixed metaphors and baseball terms.

While we're on the subject of "Don't Rain on My Parade" - I've always wondered, on the broadway cast album, what the hell does Barbra do with her voice on the last "parade"? It sounds like a mistake. I've never heard such a thing.

R108 That woman has too much bosom.

She must be equipped with four bosoms.

R101. Holy shit. That Bitch sucks ass. I’d walk out of that on an airplane.

I've often thought Barbra's perfectionism stemmed from that flubbed note on the cast recording.

How did Barbra let them release that? Normally, on cast recordings, if a star flubs a note, they do another take.

I love the B'way cast album! It was recorded live - the entire performance with all the actors going through it spontaneously one afternoon. The movie soundtrack is over produced, I hate it.

Is that right, R115? That seems so un-Barbra, but would explain why she kept going after the voice crack in "Parade" and why they kept it in (actually it sounded kind of cool). Maybe she wasn't yet famous enough to throw her weight around and demand a retake?

I do think the movie soundtrack version of "People" is heavenly.

Barbra is no Linda Eder.

I like Barbra, but I always hated the song People.

[quote]Barbra is no Linda Eder.

She ain't no Mamie Van Doren either.

Sure, R116, she was the new kid in town, and young young young as her publicity said. I know Babs was in a Broadway show two years earlier, but she was young and "new," as in a new star. She sounded so much better in a spontaneous environment. Legend has it that the cast LP was released a week or so later.

'I do think the movie soundtrack version of "People" is heavenly.'

I'll guess this is the only 1960s version of People you've heard...in the movie, it's a perfunctory vocal.

R121, No, I had the cast album, her “People” album, the movie soundtrack, and then the numerous later live performances. The movie version is by far my favorite, so lush and emotional. I like that she didn’t have to belt and could express some of the lyrics softly.

[quote]She ain't no Mamie Van Doren either.

No. Barbra could never be a first lady. She's a jew.

Streisand is no Eydie Gorme either. Cuz, who is? Streisand could never sing this like THAT!!

[quote]Streisand is no Eydie Gorme

One thing she is, no doubt, always grateful for.

[quote]No. Barbra could never be a first lady.

Bless your sweet, little, retarded heart.

Her singing on the Funny Girl soundtrack is sublime. All the famous songs feature her best versions of them on the soundtrack. The OBCR, on the other hand, is not very good. And in fact, Streisand does not like it all, has never used it in any compilation and never, ever references it. She knows it isn't good. But she made up for it, tenfold, in the soundtrack recording.

I like “cornet man” and “the music that makes me dance” on the cast album. Oh and “Who are you now.”

The thing about Streisand is that she never really could duplicate her sound live. So naturally all of her fussed over recordings sound better than her one and only OBCR. She famously sang like shit on most nights on Broadway - as she often does live. She doesn't have stage fright. Bitch has performance anxiety. She has the same tone of voice live, but her voice is weaker and her mix between registers is not smooth at all live. She has a harsh sound and can't do it without either singing very weakly or adding a growl that doesn't become her. Some idiot keeps posting the same (beautiful) recording of her from some TV special of a song called Starting Now? Anyway she's lip synching. As pretty as Streisand's voice was, she could never string it together live with the power and clarity of her recordings. I wasn't born until 20 years after her TV special and anyone could see that she was lip synching. Not on the "My Man" number. Her voice there is pretty and powerful, but fully human and flawed. Some of these other performances and recordings are stupid. Funny that she did a good version of Memory from Cats - if not precisely because hers is not the best one. The Eb 5 was not Barbra's best note. It's not the highest note of the song, but it's the one that matters. Streisand sings a beautiful and simple vocal on that song. She should have done many more like it. But He didn't. Stoney End, My Name is Barbra and The Broadway Album are all anyone needs to hear from her. Barbra Joan Streisand if you're feeling indulgent. She's done nothing else worth listening to.

Streisand has two OBCRs--before Funny Girl she was in I Can Get It For You Wholesale, also recorded.

Very few singers are able to reproduce the exact quality and clarity of their studio recordings in their live performances. The only ones I can think of tend to be the ones with relatively weaker voices whose studio output doesn't hide the flaws.

The only singers with a powerful voice whose live performances I found matched their studio versions were Ella Fitzgerald and Ethel Merman.

[quote] Her singing on the Funny Girl soundtrack is sublime. All the famous songs feature her best versions of them on the soundtrack

I'd have to disagree. She sounds fresher and her singing does not seem as rigidly controlled on the cast recording as her later output would be. Her Borscht Belt schtick and atrocious diction make "I'm The Greatest Star" virtually unlistenable on the soundtrack. I have never been that keen on "People" or the mugging in "Sadie, Sadie" or the self-conscious "Aren't I funny?" moments in "You Are Woman, I Am Man".

"Don't Rain On My Parade" is great in the film, I agree. The tempo and the filming render it a sense of urgency that I can't quite feel on the OBCR. "My Man" doesn't really count because, apart from the opening of the song, the rest of the recording cheats and reuses the vocal track from the "My Name Is Barbra" album.

[quote] And in fact, Streisand does not like it all, has never used it in any compilation and never, ever references it. She knows it isn't good

Or maybe it's because the cast recording was produced by Capitol Records. It was her one of her only two albums not released under the Columbia label (the "Hello, Dolly" soundtrack being the other one) and she may not have been able to easily acquire the rights to the versions from the cast album. Besides she had so many other versions of the same songs, all recorded on Columbia albums, available to choose from.

There's also Pins and Needles, done I believe while she was doing Wholesale on stage. She has one great torch song on that album.

R128, That's bullshit. I saw her during her 1994 concert tour and her voice was phenomenal and she was 52 at the time. She didn't hit a single bum note the entire performance.

She was an amazing liver singer during her prime years, which ran up to her 1994 tour. After that is when she experienced vocal decline.

It's a real shame that she didn't tour in 1977 (after the success of A Star Is Born) and in 1985 (after the success of The Broadway Album). I love Barbra still, but my favorite years, vocally, are 1963-1976. Her voice was absolutely flawless then. I've seen her live several times. The best, by far, was the 1994 tour when she still sounded great. By the 2000 "farewell tour" her voice had begun its decline. I also saw her in 2006 and 2012. I didn't see the 2018 concert. I doubt I'll see her again because the glory days are gone. But I still love her albums and buy them. I liked WALLS a lot. There's some beautiful singing on that album.

The 2000 New Years Eve concert DVD is pretty amazing 136- I think her renditions of Dreamed of You and Auld Lang Syne are sublime- like hymns. I also think "Didn't Know What Time It Was" from the last concert DVD and the cuts Lady Liberty and Take Care of This House from the Walls CD are pretty incredible as well. Very very few ever wrap around songs, lyrics and melodies quite the same, beautiful timbre, phrasing and dynamics- at any age. In these songs I think you can discern vocal artistry from the (merely) great pipes that are the assets of lesser singers.

I like every track on WALLS. Beautiful songs and still great singing. Streisand is an artist to the bone. That, combined with her beautiful timbre, is what has given her the magnificent career she's had.

And yes, the 2000 concert still had some amazing moments. The voice was still beautiful and when she sang ballads she was as good as ever. The belting had begun to suffer, though.

"Or maybe it's because the cast recording was produced by Capitol Records. It was her one of her only two albums not released under the Columbia label..."

Are you kidding? Streisand hates the original cast album of Funny Girl BECAUSE it was spontaneous and she couldn't do ten takes of everything and edit like she did on her solo albums. The reason the OC album wasn't on Columbia was because they were punishing her - they didn't want her doing another Broadway show* and refuse to support it. She probably loved that part, but not an album she couldn't control.

*Columbia wanted her to do more TV and nighclubs to promote her records, not spend time on theater

Blow the bugle! Sound the cymbals! All my troubles fit in a thimble

Such glorious lyrics ... NOT.

“Tell those oobly boobly feelings I’m freeeeee!”

"Let's Hear it For Meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!" was such a lame attempt to do another "Don't Rain on My Parade," only with a plane instead of a tugboat.

And while people are making fun of the lyrics for Funny Lady, the lyrics to Funny Girl weren't that great either.

Girls, girls. Both songs suck. Musically, they're pretty great, but the lyrics...Christ.

There is an alternate, slightly slower simpler take of "If I Love Again" that appears on the Quad LP soundtrack, that is even finer and more delicately sung than the one in the film. It used to be on YouTube, but it appears to have been pulled - very annoying.

This expressionistic Robert Alton-directed Ethel Merman number from STRIKE ME PINK (1936) was used as inspiration to the gaudy Herb Ross "Great Day" . The latter is a mess, the former is sublime.

[quote]Girls, girls. Both songs suck.

Yes, but "Don't Rain on My Parade" works in the film. It's visually very compelling.

"Great Day" is pure Steisand vanity.

It could not be any less like Fanny Brice had it been disco.

The reason Capitol did the FUNNY GIRL Broadway cast album is simple.

Capitol put money in the show with the proviso that they could record the cast album.

I still can't get over all the bad decisions made regarding this movie.

I wonder if they considered asking Jule Styne and Bob Merrill to write some new songs.

That's one of the biggest mistakes they made. And not asking Isobel Lennart to write a new script.

And Carol Haney to do the choreography!

I like the musical numbers very much. What ruins FL for me is Barbra's performance that is endlessly sour as if she doesn't want to be there (especially since we know she didn't).

I always took it as Streisand trying to be a serious actress by doing a movie called Funny Lady and not being funny or charming once. It was like she wanted to show everyone the opposite of what she did in Funny Girl to prove she had range. It could have worked if the script was more interesting.

R154, sure, but the reality was that Streisand was trying to be all Women's Lib - tough broad stuff circa 1974 - at least in the first half.

It surprises me that Fran and Ray Stark ever approved that dreadful script. It makes Fannie into such an unlikeable bitch.

Streisand could have won the Oscar that year if the script had included Fanny's sudden death. A death scene could have guaranteed Babs a statuette. You know, like how she'd have been sure to win for TWWW (according to Babs anyway) if she hadn't been directed by Pollack to cover her face in a crying scene.

Best Performance by an Actress in a Crying Scene for TWWW followed by Best Performance by an Actress in a Dying Scene for FL.

R69 It sounds true! Like in a Michael Wolfe kind of way. It's true-ish. I'm gonna choose to believe it.

The clothes were divine, anyway.

TWWW was the last Oscar worthy performance Streisand ever gave.

Oscar worthy? Not bloody likely!

"according to Babs anyway"

That was according to Arthur Laurents, R157, not Babs. In addition, although I'd LOVE to see her die on screen, there is no fucking way Barbra Streisand would have ever gotten an Oscar for tripe like Funny Lady.

When she was much younger, she should have developed a film about Sarah Bernhardt. There are many similar facts in their lives. Streisand is Jewish and Bernhardt's mother was Jewish, though Sarah was baptized Catholic. Streisand lost her father when she was very small. Bernhardt's mother was a prostitute and Sarah never met her father. Both had larger than life theatrical personalities.

If Streisand was any kind of an actual actress, this was a natural for her. How she left it unexplored is a mystery. It couldn't have ended up worse that effing FUNNY LADY.

The only thing I remember liking about "Funny Lady" was James Caan's hairy chest.

I seem to recall LONG ago reading that Barbra was interested in playing Bernhardt.

Nice set of beads.

Streisand has never been much of an actress. In her early days, she had a lovely flair for comedy that she all but abandoned somewhere in the 70's and never looked for it again until those Fockers movies. She wanted so desperately to be considered a fantastic dramatic actress, but all her big dramatic roles and films were awful. Then again, it's hard to tell if it was her performances or the scripts that really sunk the films. She really should have done Gypsy 30 years ago. That would have been a great mix of her musical comedy roots (where she flourishes) and all the dramatic stuff she's always wanted to do. At least then, if she failed, we'd know it wasn't the material that was bringing her down.

In the 1970s Ken Russell wanted to make a film about Bernhardt with Streisand and sent her a script but the legend is that she never responded. Another version is that Barbra was creeped out by the idea that Sarah used to sleep in a coffin. We ended up getting a lousy Glenda Jackson in a lousy non-Russell version.

R163, WHO did you think inspired these 1969 Avedon photographs?

The 27-year-old Babs looks like a 47-year-old frau dressed up for a costume party in the Avedon photo.

I suspect that another reason Streisand was awful in Unfunny Lady might have been her own increasingly egotistical self refusing to listen to the director and trying to direct everything herself.

Streisand did talk about playing Bernhardt, but like to many of the projects she talked about, it came to nothing. Ingmar Bergman also wanted her to do a film version of The Merry Widow with Placido Domingo, and she never did that either.

As far as her dramatic performances go, she should have won the Oscar for TWWW. She really was the best that year. And of course we all know she turned down several roles that won Oscars for other people: Klute, Cabaret, and Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore chief among them.

I don't see Streisand in "Cabaret" at all unless they change the ending. She comes across as too Jewish and her character would suffer the same horrible fate as most of the other Jews in Germany at the time.

^^ Supposedly she was also offered THE EXORCIST.

How would that work, exactly - with a Jewish mother agreeing to let the Catlicks exorcise her child (??)

No, no, R174. Babs was to play the demon possessed daughter, not the mother.

The reason Streisand turned down Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore - VANITY. Vanity has ruined most of her film career like she didn't know what decade it was. It wasn't MGM of the 1940s, it was the nitty gritty 70s.

31 year old Babs thought herself too young to play the mother of a twelve year old in Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore, (her words), therefore it was rejected. AGE was her concern, not acting a character in a good script. I always thought Streisand cleverly intertwined her persona with the roles she played. But now I see that she can't differentiate herself FROM her roles. It's very Norma Desmondish.

31 is a bit young to be the mother of a 12 year old. Not unheard of, but I could understand that. Then again, this is the woman who still believes she's young enough to play the mother of two young children in Gypsy, so who knows.

Streisand wanted to be taken seriously as a dramatic actress as long as everything was shot from her good side. That's not the attitude of a true actress. Real actresses will go to deep dark places and aren't afraid to be seen in an unflattering light.

I thought the Alice story was that she felt she couldn't believably play a cocktail lounge singer though later in All Night Long she deliberately sang badly as an amateur country and western singer.

"31 is a bit young to be the mother of a 12 year old."

R177, she could have PLAYED 35. The role is not about HER, it's about Alice Hyatt. Streisand was supposed to be an actress. Get it yet? She doesn't.

And don't say Streisand could pass for 35 in 1973.

"And don't say Streisand could pass for 35 in 1973."

S/B - And don't say Streisand COULDN'T pass for 35 in 1973.

For all her claims I've never believed that Streisand wanted to be an actress. I think what she wanted was to be a movie star. That stardom came easily to her when her first film was a hit and she was awarded an Oscar for her performance. She essentially fulfilled her ambition early on and has subsequently been lazy and unwilling to stretch herself as an actress.

She met Jon Peters while doing For Pete’s Sake Funny Lady was next during that period while some projects made money the critics hated them. He didn’t want her to do Yentl.

She had to make Yentl for Papa's sake!

[quote]As far as her dramatic performances go, she should have won the Oscar for TWWW. She really was the best that year.

She should have been denied the Oscar for being in full makeup and hair seconds after giving birth. I hate that kind of shit.

As bad a Yentl was, it was far superior to Funny Lady.

I think Barbra did a great job of directing that film. But she should have cast someone other than herself.

Barbra was too old. And, again, wouldn't commit to the role of a boy, by being in flattering wigs and full makeup.

If she didn't have that Oscar, she'd probably be doing much more interesting work these days. Once people get that, they just phone it in. You have to be a true artist to have all the awards in the world and still be hungry.

While it may be the problem now, I don't think the problem was that Barbra wasn't hungry. I think it's just that she has horrendous taste.

In the mid-seventies, a couple of professionals who knew her when she was starting out stated that Barbra Streisand hadn't gone as far as they thought she would, and there were issues with taste. When I posted this here about twelve years ago, the DL queens went ballistic claiming Barbra was this and that and had achieved more than so-in-so, and how she was a peerless genius.

[quote]"31 is a bit young to be the mother of a 12 year old."

It would've played well in the South. Make her a grandmother and it'll break records in Kentucky.

It is a great tragedy that Streisand did not go to college. She is a brilliant woman, but not well educated. A college degree may have lessened a lot of insecurity which might have led to her being less controlling in her work. It might have addressed some of her awful issues around artistic taste.

She grew up in poverty and there was a lot of friction with her step-father. No one can fault her for grabbing the money and independence when it came. But it came so early. A little slower and she might have been better prepared for it.

Good observation. If she'd had just little more personal self confidence, it's awesome to think of what she might have done as an actress. She did want, desperately, the lead in Sophie's Choice but the director didn't want her. She even offered to audition for it.

Would Babs get away with casting herself in Mentl if she were in her forties right now? I could see SJWs and the trans lobby baying for her blood and shrieking that Mentl/Hamschel needs to be played by a trans actor.

R175, wouldn't she have been a better fit for the demon who possessed the child? The child could then suddenly burst into creepy renditions of "Happy Days Are Here Again" during each "episode".

"She grew up in poverty"

Not really, that's part of the myth. Barbra Streisand lived a perfectly average working class - middle class existence with a few ups and downs like everyone else. She always had a roof over her head, she always had plenty to eat, she always had subway fare.

She was raised in a housing project. Not middle class.

She had several residences growing up in Brooklyn, darling. No housing projects.

[quote]r191 She did want, desperately, the lead in Sophie's Choice but the director didn't want her. She even offered to audition for it.

That character is supposed to be a blonde gentile, the daughter of a Nazi sympathizer.

She's not exactly the first actress to come to mind for that part.

This thread is interesting to me, as it shows how perspectives on artists change over time.

In the '70s, I would have said Streisand would be remembered as one of the greatest singers/entertainers ever.

But now I don't think she will be remembered much at all.

I now have sympathy for the people older than me who thought the same thing about Judy Garland.

[quote]r198 I don't think Barbra will be remembered much at all....I now have sympathy for the people older than me who thought the same thing about Judy Garland.

^^ Russian bot, clearly trying to tear our community apart ! ! !

If Barbra Streisand had died tragically right after the film of Funny Girl, she's be an icon of today that everyone would know and revere. Something similar would have happened if she died after The Way We Were, though not as strong imho. She wouldn't have descended into schlock, gotten old and fat, and distorted by plastic surgery.

If you don't think Barbra will be remembered "at all," you're an idiot. She will be remembered for her many superb recordings and for a handful of very good movies (Funny Girl, What's Up Doc?, and The Way We Were mostly.) She will also be remembered as the pioneer that she was. She opened the door for a lot of women who are not traditionally beautiful to have careers.

After everyone's dead, R201, it will depend how Streisand's story is spun. She most likely will be represented as a singer with a beautiful voice who did a few movies. All that other stuff will not work out of context in the year 2035.

No, no, no. No story. No spin. That's just nonsense.

ANY trained musician will recognize her unique vocal talent immediately upon hearing a recording. Any woodwind player. Any string player. Any pianist. Trained singers, even more so. If you are a musician or a singer, you well quickly understand how great her talent and her skill were when she was in her prime. That will never change.

Unskilled devotees of pop culture may or may not know what they are hearing. But I think if anyone listens, actually listens, to her singing, they will know she had great talent. Don't confuse pop culture with artistry.

I actually like the movie quite a bit. Barbra looked beautiful and had a wonderful wardrobe. Some of the songs were really good. Plus, I had a huge crush on James Caan at the time. It doesn't bother me that others don't see the value. I've found certain cinematic "masterpieces" to be incredibly boring.

R203, don't confuse trained musicians with average people who move on to the next person very easily. The untrained are the people who buy the records and tickets, and ultimately determine who is worth worshiping. And it's never forever.

Painful banter.

Overview:

A benefit concert for the Special Olympics and an opportunity to promote Streisand's upcoming film (Funny Lady), this special was a combination of Streisand interview with Dick Cavett and Streisand concert. Attended by President Gerald Ford and a star-studded audience, the concert section features a handful of Funny Lady songs and a couple of Barbra standards. Streisand's Funny Lady co-star James Caan also makes an onstage appearance for a duet of Paper Moon / I Like Him and Muhammed Ali presents Barbra with a special award.

R205, there will always be more musicians being trained and going out into the world. And even if Barbra Streisand is forgotten by the uncultured and uneducated members of the bourgoisie, her recordings will always be known to musicians everywhere. Because of her unique talent and ability, she is firmly in that exalted uppermost tier of singers.

Elements of pop culture will always fade away, but Barbra's recordings are forever.

Streisand will be remembered long after she is gone. She broke a mold as a leading lady and essentially did so due to singular talent and drive. She also took full control of her career from the beginning (full artistic control of her recording with her first album), also something that almost no one male and especially female did. Like many I believe she could have had a much better career in film- but I think film, being in front of the camera, was something she was the most insecure about and thus she did not take risks as much and turned down quality scripts in her prime. But then she became a producer and director- again breaking the mold for female stars. For doing so she has been called a control freak, an egomaniac etc. She simply did what men did- and she has essentially worked with the same creative team her entire career and musicians clamor to work with her in the studio. I know- my brother is one of them. She is famous for being able to hear a flat violin in an entire orchestra. But above all else she is one of the worlds great singers and recognized as such by peers from the past to the present in pop, soul and opera. Song writers as well. A lot of young people do not know the scope of her recorded catalogue or the published record of her work from music world. So what! Her last 3 CDs when to top 10 and 2 of them opened at #1, her concerts sell out in her 70s. That means nothing artistically- but it does mean that she still commands commercial success. She is far from perfect- Funny Lady had its moments but is was generally a disappointment. She should have done better in film as I mentioned. But keep in mind she went to the top very quickly in every medium- and the one she most consistently returned to is the recording studio. And in it's total, her recorded catalogue is unmatched by any singer- including Ronstadt and Aretha. Most of you know of only small parts of it- and why should you?

She has lived well, somewhat in a bubble of wealth and indulgence (collecting). Then again she has been making millions since she was 19, never self destructive and has given away significant amounts of her wealth since the very beginning of her career. Not sure I could keep it together if I had made those kind of bucks in my early 20s right through to now. She is the complete opposite of the victims in entertainment (Garland, Jackson, Elvis, Whitney etc). From her own mouth "the causes and issues I support are much bigger than my silly recordings". Every now and then she sticks her foot in her mouth- but always owns it and never stops speaking out for the good fights- many of them related to the LGBT community. Her granular knowledge of voting records of Congressmen is astounding and even helpful to check out if you $support/donate to pols. Because my parents were involved in philanthropic circles I know of significant gifts she has made over the years anonymously- in addition to more public gifts like the Cedar Sinai cardiology center for women with her name on it.

I think she is a great woman- never forgot where she came from, strong, gifted and most important- devoted to those who have not been as lucky as she has been and those who get the short stick in life. Like Fonda, Taylor and a few others she learned the real value of her fame (very early) to do good in the world and in doing so has transcended the entertainment world just as Fonda and Taylor have and did.

This concert clip is better with the audio off: slim Jim looks great in a tux.

Pioneering singer,, director, actress .... yes. But you all seem to forget her contributions to interior design.

It was SHE who popularized having a personal shopping mall built under one’s house!

I knew R208 was charlie after reading the first sentence. How may times have you posted a defense of your idol in this thread, ten? Do you think these rants will convince anyone to like her?

R206 I remember watching that as a teenager! LOVED the "More than you Know" scene. I even put my little tape recorder next to the TV, so I had audio which I listened to after, repeatedly. All this is so familiar, word for word. Never forgot what she said about being home taking a bath; I sort of think about it every time I take a bath.

As for Barbra's legacy, it's hard to imagine now because she's been with us forever, and (knock wood) in seeming robust health, with little drama. We take her for granted. She'll be a legend, rediscovered over and over again.

R209 I remember that duet, too. I still think it's rather charming. Jimmy sang well!

"Then again she has been making millions since she was 19"

When Streisand was 19 she was not making "millions," even after the opening of I Can Get it for You Wholesale. She make $200/week and played some tiny night clubs. She made $250K or something very paltry for her first movies. Records, under a million. TV, reportedly $5 million for ten years work. Live performances were few and far between at the time. Sure Streisand make some good money, but gross exaggerations do not help your endless cause.

She could have made better choices in her career. As others have mentioned, had she done Gypsy in her 40's or 50's, she might have really been something spectacular, but she never had a big sense of urgency and she loves to stall on things. Still, she's had an admirable recording career and you'd have to be completely tone deaf or stupid to not realize what a powerful, beautiful instrument she had. She still has some left, but it's a bit raspy. I did think she sounded pretty good in her recent London concerts and way better than her last few concerts in the states.

Compare and contrast:

James Caan and Babs in "Funny Lady."

James Caan and Bette in "For the Boys"

“For the boys” - that title always made me cringe.

All Oscar winners are remembered. Nominees to a lesser extent.

r218=M

Well maybe not millions right away- but she negotiated the best contract any new artist ever had with Columbia- creative control and compensation on units sold- no flat salaries. And she has renegotiated the same since. I don't give a rats ass who I convince or do not- you don't have to really "defend" her any more than you have to defend Elizabeth II. Their lives and their stories are huge. There are half a dozen others some deceased and some still living who I admire at least as much- people of extraordinary talent and distinction in politics, sports, and science. Such people save me from the despair of the Trumps and humans who do nothing but take from the world. She's remained pretty level headed with talent and success on a level and scale almost never seen in entertainment history. Not too many like her, ever. People should know about her story- it's much more complicated than most know. I'll be interested to see what her long coming autobiography contains- or does not contain.

You think Streisand negotiated her own record contract in 1962? Another ignorant insane claim.

Ditto the bit about having total artistic control of her first album. Too silly to countenance.

If you like Streisand but have lost touch recently because you think she's lost it, listen to WALLS. It contains her best singing in years.

Walls is good. Just Grammy nominated not that means anything anymore.

[quote] I don't give a rats ass who I convince or do not-

You would think this post would end here; but you'd be wrong.

A friend of mine, who is a screenwriter, was at Josh Brolin's house one day with some other people. He said at one point Barbra walked in, and when she did, electricity went through the room. (My friend is about 30 yrs old and straight). He said she has such incredible charisma that he immediately understood how she became so famous and remained so famous for so long.

[quote]And in it's total, her recorded catalogue is unmatched by any singer- including Ronstadt and Aretha. Most of you know of only small parts of it- and why should you?

Actually, Charlie, some of us _are_ familiar with much of her recorded catalogue. I still like her early stuff until around the Clear Day soundtrack album. Most of what she recorded in the 70s was MOR pop and she was completely out of her element here by her own admission. When she sang the lyrics of Laura Nyro, Carole King, Joni Mitchell, David Bowie or John Lennon, her much ballyhooed "singing actress" disappeared and she seemed to have no clue how to interpret their lyrics. The only decent-ish work she did in the 70s were "Lazy Afternoon" and (some songs on) "The Way We Were".

There was more of the same ghastly pop schlock in the 80s and 90s. Even the acclaimed Broadway Album has some songs that are overproduced and dated. The less said about its sequel, Back to Broadway, the better. By the mid -90s she had become utterly boring and predictable, and her recordings had become sterile, overproduced beyond belief, and devoid of anything human.

[quote]But above all else she is one of the worlds great singers and recognized as such by peers from the past to the present in pop, soul and opera.

Pop, maybe, but the claim that soul and opera singers recognize her as a great is a bit far-fetched. You and the other Streisand fanatics keep claiming that classical musicians and opera singers revere her, but the only evidence of this any of you are able to produce are the liner notes written by Glenn Gould for her album of lieder.

R227, you are correct that classical singers do not universally revere Streisand's body of work as a singer. But they do recognize the quality of her voice. Anyone who has ever spent time in a music conservatory has encountered wildly talented young artists who, for reasons of their own, never realize their potential. Babs did not realize her potential. She just failed in that way a lot more successfully than most.

Had she been better trained as a young woman, who knows where she might have taken it.

I read that "Classical Barbra" was cobbled together from the tapes, note-by-note.

R227, you deserve a prize for telling the truth so eloquently!

R227 Streisand got Leonard Bernstein to write the notes on the back of the "Classic Barbra" album.

I don't remember what he wrote but I remember thinking it was VERY carefully worded. It was tantamount to "What a lovely try."

That said, I did enjoy that album. But I thought it was very suspicious that the only song sung in English was the only one with a crisp, clear recording. It made me think the rumors that they had had to struggle to put together the other songs in post were true.

[quote]Ya gotta love the "recent history" comment. I went to see a production of "Hair" last weekend. I saw the original in 1970 when I was 18. I realized that it was nearly 50 years ago, and when I was 18, 50 years ago was 1920--which definitely seemed like ancient history to me. So for the young people in the production, I can only imagine what they think of the late sixties period they were portraying. REALLY made me feel old, as someone who had lived through some of the events depicted in the play.

r14- Time is like air- you can't see it- and if it weren't for science and watching things sway in the wind, we wouldn't even know it existed. So, for time, the only true indication of its existence is style...a look. Hence, as long as people are dressing and behaving fairly similar to the past, it could be a million years ago, and still seem like yesterday!

In other words, I think for you and folks around your age, the 1920s would seem like ancient history in the 1970s, because literally everything from attitude to language, to fashion, it was so very different! But, to young people today, they would be pretty silly thinking of the late 1960s or 70s in that same way, because there is far less of a difference between the hippie and "sexy 70s" eras and now than there was between the 1920s and the hippie era.

There's only so much a person can invent before they either just go off the rails into outlandishness in an effort to be original (like what we've seen a lot of in the last 15 years especially, unfortunately), OR we start repeating ourselves with styles of the past and mixing them up.

Other than computer technology, I just don't think we are as different from 50 years ago as 50 years ago was to 100 years ago.

[quote]there is no fucking way Barbra Streisand would have ever gotten an Oscar for tripe like Funny Lady.

It was a very weak year for leading actress performances. The winner was really a supporting performance, but she was bumped up because of the paucity of strong nominees.

Barbra could have easily snagged a nomination.

Bernadette singing How Lucky Can You Get at the Oscars.

Streisand was busy filming ASIB.

[quote]r231 Streisand got Leonard Bernstein to write the notes on the back of the "Classic Barbra" album. I don't remember what he wrote but I remember thinking it was VERY carefully worded. It was tantamount to "What a lovely try."

The cover was flattering. [italic]C'est quelque chose.

R231, I took out that album just to see the quote because I didn't remember it. It's in very small print on the upper right side. I missed it in 1976. I have no doubt Bernstein didn't personally write it, and Streisand did't "convince him" or someone close to Bernstein to do it. It was probably arranged by the record company. WHY do people always think that the stars themselves do this shit? They don't - that's what publicity departments are for.

[quote]Time is like air- you can't see it- and if it weren't for science and watching things sway in the wind, we wouldn't even know it existed. So, for time, the only true indication of its existence is style...a look. Hence, as long as people are dressing and behaving fairly similar to the past, it could be a million years ago, and still seem like yesterday!

I wish we had some way of being able to mark the passage of time. It would be helpful if we, say, had the sun set in predictable cycles.

Oh, well! At least we have blouses.

[quote]But, to young people today, they would be pretty silly thinking of the late 1960s or 70s in that same way, because there is far less of a difference between the hippie and "sexy 70s" eras and now than there was between the 1920s and the hippie era.

You only say that because to think otherwise is to admit that your heyday is ancient history.

But the '70s are as old fashion looking now, as the '20s were in the '70s. There were no computers (that the public had). There were no smartphones. There was no Internet. TVs were tiny and had HORRIBLE picture quality. Cars were primitive. The clothes look ridiculous.

If Louise Fletcher hadn’t been bumped Ann-Margaret would have most likely been the winner. Can you imagine ?

R236 Yes, because Streisand is such a devil-may-care, hands-off artist, she would take absolutely no interest in the quotation from Bernstein on the back of her album.

R240, the Classical Album was recorded in 1973 and released in 1976. The only thing new about it was the Scavullo cover. Streisand was a megalomaniac, true, and she wants everyone to believe she does everything herself, but I do not think she was hands-on with this record. I do not believe she called up "close friend" Lenny and begged him to listen and write a sentence or two about her LP.

[quote]r238 But the '70s are as old fashion looking now, as the '20s were in the '70s. There were no computers (that the public had). There were no smartphones. There was no Internet. TVs were tiny and had HORRIBLE picture quality. Cars were primitive. The clothes look ridiculous.

We had TIMELESS EYESHADOW, bitch!

Scavullo photographed Babs well. I like the cover of "Classical.." and also her "Greatest Hits" album from the 70s. If I'm not mistaken the B&W photo on the cover of that hits album was also by Scavullo.

r237- In case you couldn't tell, it takes eyes to see the sun and the way it rises and sets. Hence what I said about "a look". It has to be something people can see- like I said in the first place. So, yours is a mute point. But, you tried.

Seeing is believing. So, as I said before, 50 years ago to today's time should not seem as ancient as 50 years from 50 years ago would have seemed.

r238- You may want to think again because you, too, missed the point! I didn't say there were NO CHANGES, what I said was that the changes were not as noticeably different as it was with 1920s to 50s years later. And if you can't admit that, it's you who doesn't want to admit to something, not me.

Just consider music as an example- in the 1970s, people were already cursing in songs, the hard sound was starting, and decorum at concerts was very different to the 1920s or 30s. But, can we really say that today's music is that different than the 70s? Not really. Variation, yes. True difference? No. When I hear Kate Bush, for example, she's not really that different from Lorde or St. Vincent. But, when I listen to 1920S/30s singers Helen Kane or Alice Faye, they are VERY different from both.

If you spent less time trying to be a smarty-pants, you might actually become smart! Imagine that!

[quote]So, yours is a mute point.

Oh, dear.

r245- Moot point. Happy, smarty-pants?!

I think he did the photography for her music video of Somewhere she has never looked more beautiful and yes haters Barbra is beautiful.

Oops I got Scuvullo mixed up with Cinematographer Andrzej Bartowiak who also made her look very good.

[quote] So, yours is a mute point. But, you tried.

Try harder with your literacy.

[quote]If you spent less time trying to be a smarty-pants, you might actually become smart! Imagine that!

I'm needlepointing this on a throw pillow as I type.

Auf dem Wasser zu Singen

^^r250- Haha, good one!

r249- Just stop. I was offering up a perspective that I think holds a lot of truth, and all you can do is criticize.

This is DL, but that doesn't mean there's some rule that says you HAVE to be a jerk at all times!

Like Mr Sinatra, R247, if Madam Streisand didn't have that voice - she would not be seen as beautiful by some. She, they'd, be just a couple of ordinary NJ/NY fugs.

R252 Yes, this is Datalounge. So you should expect to be taken to task for a remark that not only had a misspelling but also appalling punctuation. Learn how to use commas.

When Barbra did try to leave the beaten path and experiment, the public wouldn't buy it. The Belle of 14th Street and Barbra Streisand and Other Musical Instruments are two examples of her commercial failures, yet both are fascinating and, notably, contain absolutely spectacular singing. Up The Sandbox is another example of a project that failed and yet there is something very interesting about it and Barbra shows us a side to her that I don't think we see in any other film. I often wonder what direction her movie career might have taken had Sandbox been a box office success.

R255 While I agree with you that those projects were interesting, they are not particularly good.

I watched Up the Sandbox for the first time several years ago. It wasn't boring, but it wasn't very satisfying either.

I don't think any of those projects didn't do well because they were "too far ahead of their time" or other reasons. I think the didn't do well because they weren't all that good.

[quote][R227], you are correct that classical singers do not universally revere Streisand's body of work as a singer.

You couldn't be more wrong. Pavarotti said he would rather listen to a Barbra Streisand song than an aria by most of the reigning opera divas. Maria Callas, Marilyn Horne, Beverly Sills, Jessye Norman, Leontyne Price, Placido Domingo and Renee Fleming are all on record as being big Streisand fans.

I think Streisand could easily have been nominated for "Funny Lady", considering the lack of competition that year and the fact that it was a hit.

"Maria Callas, Marilyn Horne, Beverly Sills, Jessye Norman, Leontyne Price, Placido Domingo and Renee Fleming are all on record as being big Streisand fans."

I'll have to see a link to believe any of that, and I predict you won't have one. Callas? You're out of your mind.

R259 Even Jesus said he was a HUGE fan of Streisand's.

And now, in an act of blatant cultural appropriation.....

R260, we're Jewish.

The dressing room...

R263 That actually makes Streisand seem quite nice.

R251 That's a delightful little bon bon! I remember watching that TV special, and I had the album, too. I remember looking for it on iTunes a few years ago, but it wasn't available,

It was an offbeat Special, r265. Mary had a pretty offbeat Special herself in 1976....

r254- To address grammar and punctuation, while ignoring the heart of the message, is the surest sign of someone who has nothing of value to add (and that you're a crashing bore). Sad, but true.

Now, get lost, kid. Ya bother me.

R267, LEAVE. NOW. You don't belong here, buttercup.

[quote]you're a crashing bore

Someone thinks she's in a 1930s movie and speaking with a mid-Atlantic accent.

[quote]I'll have to see a link to believe any of that, and I predict you won't have one. Callas? You're out of your mind.

For your viewing pleasure, bitch.

r269- Why, thank you very much for the compliment!

You two asked for it!

I TOLD you she was a crazy bitch.

That Paris premiere looked scary. No wonder Streisand became such a recluse if every time she appeared in public there was such pandemonium. I remember at the Hello, Dolly premiere they had to run her into the side door of a building for fear she was going to be crushed. I think it was at that point that her fear of crowds manifested itself and she stopped performing live.

R270, and that silent film proves WHAT? That you're an idiot?

An analysis....

R276, That was the night that Judy Garland knew she had been replaced by someone younger and more gifted.

OH NO SHE DIDN'T!

I prefer her films to her albums.

But then I'm a rock Gay. When ya'll were buying the Funny Lady soundtrack in 1975, I was buying KISS Alive! and Led Zeppelin's Physical Graffiti.

Don't be ridiculous, R277. That was the night Judy did her show in a dry drunk.

THE night (??)

R276 Did the queen who did that video expect us to read all those words?

I may be in a minority but I've always found Barbra quite beautiful, especially in the early 70's when she had the long streaky blonde hair as shown in What's Up Doc? and on the album Butterfly and Lazy Afternoon.

Back to '65!

WEHT Sidney Chaplin?

Chaplin was a huge asshole. After Barbra ended their fling, he took his revenge by whispering "Nose" in her ear at every opportunity whilst onstage. He made the remaining performances with him absolute torture for her.

LESSON: Keep your legs closed to married costars, you trashbox hooker!

*****

Streisand's voice was absolutely glorious in the early-mid 70s.

I loved her voice best around 1964-1965, especially on the “My Name is Barbra Two” album. Young and fresh, but in full command.

Her voice was at peak from the late 60s right through to the 90s- still amazing in the 2000 concerts. These days she remains a great singer, but her elastic power is diminished and her tone is darker with an occasional rasp (although less recently than a few years ago). That said she still produces gems: Lady Liberty, Take Care of This House (latest CD) and Didn't Know What Time It Was from her last concert encore are sublime. Cannot think of anything or anyone better although I don't like to pit the best against each other. It's silly. I think she has finally been doing vocal exercises- which is why she has been in better voice recently rather than a few years back.

The recent London concert showed her in much better voice than she had been in previous years. She must be doing something right. I cringed when I heard she'd be tackling The Man That Got Away, but she rocked it.

What does any of this have to do with why Funny Lady was SO BAD?

Funny Lady isn’t so bad. True fans can find good moments.

She did a pretty smashing version of How Lucky Can You Get in her most recent concert tour- for an old broad.

"Ditto the bit about having total artistic control of her first album. Too silly to countenance."

Well, everyone at Columbia was thrilled when she said she was going to record "Who's Afraid Of The Big Bad Wolf?', they couldn't Wait to hear it. And "Happy Days Are Here Again" as a ballad was on everyone's top ten list to record.

R227 Sutherland in the mid 60s talked about Streisand in an interview for Playbill featured when both were on the cover as the best female singers of the day- Pavarotti many times throughout his career has singled out Streisand- Rene Flemming in her short bio of her evolution as a singer has as well- Marilyn Horne when interviewed in the 70s on 60 min identified Streisand as the consummate singer when asked who she thought was a great singer. I could go on- ever noticed who is in the audience at her concerts? Stars from the world of music (and Hollywood)- all types in the high price (orchestra) seats. Hate to say it 227, but she is one of those singers who the stars turn out to see. Wonder why? Are they all her friends. Same phenom at Garland concerts. Callas was asked in the late 50s who she thought the greatest singer in the world was- without hesitation she said Judy Garland- not someone from opera.

R296, have you ever heard of record producers? Barbra Streisand was helped and guided throughout all of it. She even appropriated from other singers.

charlie (R297) you have neglected to provide ONE LINK to support that clap trap. Not one.

The sad thing about WALLS is that while Streisand sounded better than she has in years years, it was a dismal album with mostly mediocre new songs (and concluding with a bizarre version of "Happy days Are Here Again") infused with the despair and hopelessness of living under a Trump administration. It made you wish all over again that Hillary was president.

I love WALLS. Great album and wonderful singing from Barbra. And I agree with the above poster who said that "My Name Is Barbra, Two" is a great album. Streisand's voice is flawless. Tracks like "The Kind of Man a Woman Needs" and "Where's That Rainbow" still give me chills.

“Where’s That Rainbow” - Always one of my favorites. When she starts belting that last verse, “oh IT IS EASY to see all right…” - yes, chills.

"Where's that Rainbow" is also one of my favorites - that big belting finish "OOOH YEAHHHH, I see that rainbow...for Ev Re Body...buuuuut MEEEEEEE" !" ("There are very few of us left!")

But as much as we love "Belting Barbra", my number #1 Barbra recording is "My Buddy/How About Me", showing what a sensitive singer she was and how delicately and expressively she could express emotion. More than in any other song of hers I think, every inflection in every line has meaning, and that cri de cœur ("You'll FIIIIIND somebody new, but what am I to do?") rips me up every time.

Well, if we're going to talk about great Streisand performances we can't overlook "Since I Fell For You" and "One Less Bell/A House Is Not A Home", both from BARBRA JOAN STREISAND. I think both of these tracks rank among the finest recordings she's ever made.

The singing in her early television specials is spectacularly good. Even The Belle of 14th Street--which is not a good show--has some of the most beautiful singing she's ever done. I mean, everything Barbra did in the 1960's will pretty much knock you dead.

It’s with her delightfully shy modesty that Babs won over the public, not her singing.

Let’s be real.

I just don't understand why Jaye Presson Allen felt she had to turn Fannie Brice into such a raging cunt. Nobody wants to see somebody that unlikeable on the screen.

[quote] Nobody wants to see somebody that unlikeable on the screen.

You have a point there.

Barbra missed the chance to make a lot of good movies. It's a shame.

[quote] I just don't understand why Jaye Presson Allen felt she had to turn Fannie Brice into such a raging cunt.

Funny how when Ray Stark hires female screenwriters, that still doesn’t appease critics.

Missed the chance to make good movies, AND give good concerts in her vocal prime.

But she gives to charity!!!!!

- charlie

I think the two biggest losses (among the roles Streisand turned down) were "They Shoot Horses, Don't They" and "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore."

Is vanity the reason she didn't do Gypsy when she was in the right age range? She didn't want at that point in her life to be seen as having an adult child? If I'm mistaken and she did play mother to an adult child before 60 let me know. I know that Davis didn't like having a woman as old as Theresa Wright(though playing younger) as her daughter in Little Foxes. And there was only a 10 year age difference between the two women.

Interesting that in Dolly she had no problem playing a middle aged widow.

R31, you haven't been reading this thread.

I'm the only one I know who likes the second half of Funny Girl. Wyler's mastery of drama is on full display. Especially when Shariff is offered partnership in the casino. The shifting emotions of all three actors is beautifully done. Also the post trial scene and the scene of his return in her dressing room at the end. Good dramatic stuff.

From the accounts I've heard, Streisand was offered the Lansbury revival of Gypsy in the early 70's and she felt she was too young and also didn't want to do stage play ever again (a bargain she's kept to this day). I'm not sure how far the negotiations got in the 80's/early 90's before the Bette Midler version happened, but she was pitching Madonna for Louise, so she couldn't have been that vain about playing a mother if Madonna was her pitch for that role. Who knows what happened. Maybe she never got a script she liked.

"Especially when Shariff is offered partnership in the casino"

It's SHARIF, one F. He said he invented the name from the sheriffs in American westerns. He took "Omar" from General Omar Bradley. (Source: Sharif explained it on a 1975 Mike Douglas Show).

I swear I read/ heard something about Scott Rudin trying to get Barbra to do Gypsy on stage. I think he wanted her to do it on Broadway and then make a film. Although, I can't remember where I heard that. May have been a podcast with Barbra. But as someone has mentioned Barbra refused to do another stage musical. It's well known what a difficult time she had doing Funny Girl. In her recent London concert she talked about it, how she had recorded scenes/ done costume tests and that she worked on the script. She then admitted that it'll never happen now and how hard that was for her to accept.

Found the source. *** Correction, Scott Rudin wanted her to do it on Broadway and film it. Not make a separate movie.

According to Liz Smith, Barbra was offered the CZJ role in Chicago first, but turned it down because she didn't feel like she could do the dancing required. She even told Harvey Weinstein that she was too Jewish for the role.

The Oscar-wiinning roles that Streisand turned down:

Klute

They Shoot Horses, Don't They?

Cabaret

Chicago

Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore

Julia

The Exorcist

Don't forget Lady Sings the Blues, R322.

At least she became aware of her limitations as a dancer: even her minimal moves in "Great Day" are pretty bad. But she was in great voice, and Ray Stark sold the shit out of "Funny Lady" and made it a hit. James Caan was very funny in "Slither" a couple of years earlier, but the comedy in "Funny Lady" is so lame it's beyond saving, and he is horribly hammy. He looks great, so that's a nice compensation.

I thought James was fine in the movie. He was a surprisingly competent singer.

I must have had Irene Sharaff in my head.

Jimmy was good in FL, but that wig sucks.

Caan was/is bald?

He had an Jewish afro, R328. Apparently the movie producers wanted more hair, straighter hair wig.

I hope Barbra releases these scenes she apparently film for Gypsy. I have this crazy image of her crafting a makeshift set in her basement mall and performing "Rose's Turn."

Dear Barbra....I wish she hadn't been so lazy. I wish she had been more driven to prove herself as an actress. She could have done some really good work all through the 70's and 80's.

I just can't see her as Gloria in "They Shoot Horses". Fonda really conveyed the despair under the brassy veneer, although, as critics noted, she was a Texas tramp with a Vassar accent.

Yeah, no way Barbra could have done They Shoot Horses as well as Fonda. Streisand was always better in comedic parts, and I honestly don't think she ever had it in her to portray Gloria's nihilism. Same for Klute - I don't think Barbra could get to the vulnerability and fear underneath Bree's hard exterior.

[quote] The Exorcist

I can see why they wanted her as the Devil.

R333 Totally agree. I can't envision her in those roles, nor could I envision her in Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore. I think her problem was that she was either too insecure or scared to let go and really become a character. Maybe if she had the right director, one she actually listened to. She then may have shown herself to truly be a talented dramatic actress. I saw Nuts and she's all kinds of wrong. It's like watching Streisand act as a troubled prostitute than Streisand be a troubled prostitute. You always see her not the character. I think her comedic talents were impeccable though. Her physical and vocal acting in Funny Girl and Hello Dolly are brilliant. She should have done more comedic roles, she really nailed them.

These were not the only roles Streisand turned down, these are only the famous ones. There's probably a dozen or more we don't know about.

A woman gifted with intelligence and immense talent who was also uneducated, generally, and untrained in either music or theater. She accomplished what she accomplished by sheer dint of will and her own gifts.

She got the career she earned, but not by any means the great career she might have had.

I’m glad she didn’t take the role of Alice because then I’d be stuck waiting for the phone to ring whenever [italic]Barney Miller[/italic] wants to do home scenes with somebody’s wife.

The recent Streisand book suggests that she was leery of strong directors, though she did work with a few--on Nuts, for instance, when there were tremendous fights between him and Streisand every day.

But it does explain why she managed to destroy the most prestigious offer she ever had--the Ingmar Bergman Merry Widow. I don't know how he thought she as going to sing a soprano operetta part, but the notion of Streisand in a Bergman film is fascinating, at least to Streisand fans.

She sabotaged it by asking for script rewrites. Boom! He cancelled the project then and there.

>>The Oscar-wiinning roles that Streisand turned down:

Klute

They Shoot Horses, Don't They?

Cabaret

Chicago

Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore

Julia

The Exorcist

She almost accepted some of those roles, but then Gary stuck his fat nose in...

I would've loved to see her version of The Exorcist.

She would’ve turned it into a 70 mm musical called [italic]Hello, Pazuzu![/italic]

I do have to wonder if her agent, Sue Mengers, wasn't to blame for her turning down some of these parts. I always hear horror stories after the fact of actors saying that they had no idea they were offered these wonderful roles because their agent turned the producers down because they didn't think their client was right for it/wouldn't like it/didn't offer enough money. That's a tragic part of the business. Sometimes, I don't think a lot of actors even get to read the script before their agent passes on it.

That is very true, R343. IT just tells us how easy it is to have a bad relationship with your agent--who should be the one person you can trust.

There was story some years back of an actress asking her agent to get her a meeting for a part she wanted, and his reply was, "You're not right for it." He refused to help her.

So she went to the movie makers on her own and got the role.

Then her agent had the gall to demand a commission for it.

I remember Streisand saying at one point that she turned down Cabaret and Julia because they had no director attached at the time and she didn't know they'd end up with such great directors.

I work with actors all the time and you'd be shocked by how many times they have to demand an audition because their agent won't help them out. They end up landing the role and the agent still wants their percentage. It's incredibly fucked up. Why should they get a percent when the actor had to fight for it themselves with no help?

There was one who begged the producer not to even talk to her agent, because he had no idea she'd even taken this role and, since she got it without him, he'd demand a percent and she didn't want him to have it.

I can't really see her being very good in any of those pictures. Maybe Horses, but even that. She's too broad of an actress.

Liza would have been better in Funny Lady. She sings "How Lucky Can you get at 9:17.

Jon Peters was the main one responsible for Barbra turning down so many great roles. He wanted her to do big box-office movies, like ASIB and The Main Event instead of Oscar-worthy movies like Julia and The Turning Point. Mostly because he could produce them and make lots of money for himself.

During the Jon Peters era, she reigned at the box-office, but she probably lost an Oscar or two.

Peters did pull her down a good deal. His taste was appalling.

But she knew he had an excellent instinct for making movies that would make her a ton of money despite the fact they were shit. Making money was always Babs no 1 priority another reason why at the time she was right for Gypsy she knew it would not make the money she wanted to make. She had better money making prospects at the time or she had rotten vanity projects which because of her super inferiority complex she had to make.

It helps to know that Jon Peters is illiterate. He was probably watching cartoons when he was 30.

"I do have to wonder if her agent, Sue Mengers, wasn't to blame for her turning down some of these parts"

That's what I thought in the 1970s. I thought Streisand's friendship with Sue was clouding her mind and resulted in keeping a do nothing agent. However, It's since come out that Babs was so indecisive she was the do nothing one, Sue was right there with script after script, deal after deal. There is absolutely no reason Sue Mengers would WANT Streisand to sit around and do nothing, she wouldn't get a commission.

A Bergman and Streisand collaboration would have been insane. I feel like it would have either been a masterpiece or disastrous R339. This is pretty random and off topic but at a talk Liv Ullman said that Bergman was invited to a party at Streisand's house. He was going to go but then found out it was a pool party and immediately cancelled. No wonder Bergman died on an island isolated from society.

Sue Mengers was always trying to get Streisand to work:

Barbra was very careful about which projects she accepted and took a great deal of time to make up her mind. She and Sue bickered like sisters over all manner of points—often when Sue was trying to get her to accept an offer and Barbra was vacillating. “She was totally obsessed with work, with career,” Streisand said. “I was very different. She couldn’t get me to work.” Earlier, Barbra had turned down They Shoot Horses, Don’t They? and Klute, because there was no director attached when they were offered to her. Both roles went to Jane Fonda.

Barbra sometimes wondered how deep Sue’s loyalty ran. She would find herself in the offices of CMA listening to Sue talking to one of her other clients on the phone. “Yes, darling,” Sue would say. “Of course, darling.” Then Sue would hang up the phone and say, “Cunt.” Barbra asked Sue if she spoke that way about her behind her back, but Sue always seemed horrified that Barbra would think her capable of such a thing.

When Sue pressured Barbra to accept a script, the agent could be as manipulative as she was with any of her clients. “Sue knew how to push your buttons,” Streisand said. “She was very clever. She could make you feel very unworthy about your talent or your age: ‘You’re getting on. You’d better do this movie.’ ”

Fellini should have worked with Barbra, not Bergman. He would have gone to her pool party (and mall) too.

It was Sue who declined JULIA for Barbra:

The year of the hijacking, 1979, was not a good one for American films—but that didn’t distress Sue. As always, her paramount concern was to find the right vehicle for Barbra. It was a tough task: Barbra remained fussy about material. Sue had turned down a number of scripts for her out of hand because she thought them inappropriate, including Julia, a World War II–era weeper that became a big hit for Twentieth Century Fox, with Jane Fonda and Vanessa Redgrave.

Sue was dead set against Barbra’s dream proj­ect, an original screen musical based on Isaac Bashevis Singer’s story “Yentl the Yeshiva Boy,” which the star had long envisioned as her move into writing and directing. Sue could not conceive that there was an audience for Barbra playing a woman who disguises herself as a boy and winds up falling in love with a fellow student of Talmudic law—singing the whole time. “Sue was always against Yentl,” Streisand remembered. “She would say, ‘How can you play this? You’re going to play a boy?’ ” Sometimes, Sue was downright derisive about it in front of other people—not noticing that she was hurting her friend’s feelings.

[quote] “Sue was always against Yentl,” Streisand remembered. “She would say, ‘How can you play this? You’re going to play a boy?’ ” Sometimes, Sue was downright derisive about it in front of other people—not noticing that she was hurting her friend’s feelings.

Well, Sue was right. Streisand, in wig, full makeup, and 40, was ridiculous as a boy.

"Yentl is mental!"

It was Sue who declined JULIA for Barbra? GOOD WORK, Sue. Streisand would have looked like a fucking idiot in that movie.

Wait. Streisand was up for a movie where she has to sneak into Nazi Germany by looking like she wouldn't even HELP a Jew? LOL

Barbra's main objective was certainly not money, as the above poster claims. Had it been, she'd never have spent 15 years pursuing and finally making YENTL. No one ever, EVER, thought Yentl would be a money maker. Streisand knew it wouldn't be. It performed decently but was not a blockbuster. But it was her dream project and she finally made it despite the naysayers.

If I were an actor and I found out that my agent had passed on a great script without even showing it to me, I would fire that agent immediately. I would want to see everything offered to me, no matter what.

I think the Merry Widow with Bergman would have been lovely. It would have co-starred Placido Domingo and they'd have sounded beautiful together. I think Streisand, for all her talk, didn't have the courage to do something like that. Although this is true: in the 1970's, when Barbra was studying at the Actor's Studio, she offered all three networks "Romeo and Juliet" starring herself as Juliet and all three TV networks turned her down.

How ironic she did most of her best film work before she went to the Actor’s Studio.

Barbra was very limited. Almost every role required a stretch - oh she's a hot zany college student, oh she's a hot high-class hooker, etc. I never saw Yentl, but do think she was best cast in Funny Girl (obviously) and The Way We Were. In fact, I'm guessing Katie Morosky is pretty close to her personality.

Cutting Roddy McDowall out of any movie constitutes a hate crime.

a FUNNY LADY parody appears in a 1975 Mad Magazine. Not that it was so hilarious...but that Mad readers could even relate to an extensive Barbra parody...must have been an early DLer on staff....

r363 = Barbara Thorndyke

R365 Elder here, MAD parodied all the mainstream films back then. There weren't a million jillion billions movies and TV shows like today. I specifically remember the one they did for TWWW: "The Way We Bore."

NO ONE today would have the guts to do anything like STOKELY AND TESS.

[quote]r345 she turned down Cabaret and Julia because they had no director attached at the time and she didn't know they'd end up with such great directors.

Seriously, how could she star in WWII stories like those without her obvious Jewishness becoming part of the story? Were we just supposed to ignore that she's Barbra Streisand?

It would be like casting a black actress as Scarlett O'Hara, and expecting an audience to ignore what it could see.

I qualified what I said about her being into money except for vanity projects. And Yentl was as big a vanity project as has ever been made. Singer thought it was ludicrous(why did he sell her the rights? He knew what would happen.) It could have been a beautiful film correctly cast and directed. Don't Rain on My Parade at the end surrounded by impoverished immigrants has Barbra parodying her entire career. A great talent torpedoed by the worst decisions in American show business.

[quote] It would be like casting a black actress as Scarlett O'Hara, and expecting an audience to ignore what it could see.

Hey, I won an Oscar for playing Chinese.

R371, So did I, bitch, and I was also playing a man.

And in the same year Streisand tried to do the same, no less.

"Were we just supposed to ignore that she's Barbra Streisand?"

OF COURSE NOT! For all of her yakking about wanting to be an actress, Barbra Streisand really wanted to be a MOVIE STAR. Just like Rita Hayworth, no acting required.

I still say Babs didn't want to play Lillian because....well....

r 368 thanks for that MAD link / elder gay here also regrets the edge of satire that seems forever lost in my lifetime

btw r369, Lillian was Jewish.

[quote]r371 Hey, I won an Oscar for playing Chinese. — Luise Rainer

I was almost nominated.

[quote]r376 btw [R369], Lillian was Jewish.

That's true. But I believe Jane Fonda was brought onboard immediately, and I don't think there was ever any doubt that she would play the starring role of Lillian.

When other actresses (like Faye Dunaway) have been mentioned in connection to the project, it was always for the role of Julia.

But maybe there were earlier talks with Babs, before Fonda was signed.

There was talk of remaking THE WOMEN in the late 70s with Streisand as Sylvia, Raquel Welch as Crystal, and Faye Dunaway as Mary.

Streisand might have done a good job with a busybody, comedic role that.

"But maybe there were earlier talks with Babs, before Fonda was signed."

I think that was the timeline, r379.

Re Lucky Lady, it had three different endings. The original had Reynolds and Hackman dying in the final battle, and then cut to Minnelli three years later, remembering the men she loved.

The Stanley Donen began to worry It was too serious for the way the rest of the film turned out. So he filmed another ending, taking place years later when they’re all older. All three were in bed together and fumbling around, and Minnelli says “You’d think by this point we would have gotten this routine down.” But the old age make-up looked terrible and it tested badly, so Donen just cut the last ten minutes and improvised an ending with existing footage. All the stars were upset, especially Minnelli, who felt that the original ending featured some of her best acting.

Streisand would actually have been excellent casting as a 30ish Lillian Hellman in “Julia,” although Jane is really excellent in the part.

[quote]Jon Peters was the main one responsible for Barbra turning down so many great roles.

We all have our crosses to bear.

Here's the MAD parody of Funny Lady R365 referred to. You can click through the pages.

I saw an interview on TV where Fonda admitted all her greatest roles were initially offered to Barbra, who turned them down. "I owe my career to Barbra Streisand." I remember her saying. So the Julia offer was not just hearsay. Along with Klute and They Shoot Horses. I think Streisand could have played a very interesting Lilian Hellman, although I love the film as is and think Fonda is great in it.

FUCK YOU OP, and the rest of you naysayers.

[quote]r384 Streisand would actually have been excellent casting as a 30ish Lillian Hellman in “Julia,” although Jane is really excellent in the part.

I don't know if the script was tailored for Fonda once she took on the role, but she does a good job with the vulnerability/fear angle. Lillian Hellman was brusque and confident in real life, and that's surely how Streisand would have played it. But that's not exactly the character we see in the film.

Re: JULIA, this is really funny : )

[quote]although Jane is really excellent in the part.

She isn't. She gave her usual wooden performance. Barbra, Shirley MacLaine, or Julie Christie would have been superior in the role.

R390 That was very funny.

What I thought telling about Julia, is that you knew that Fonda was the star because the camera was on her when Meryl was talking.

[quote]r391 She gave her usual wooden performance. Barbra, Shirley MacLaine, or Julie Christie would have been superior in the role.

STFU. Fonda is probably the best natural actress of her generation. She is very alive. Almost nakedly so.

"Maria Callas, Marilyn Horne, Beverly Sills, Jessye Norman, Leontyne Price, Placido Domingo and Renee Fleming are all on record as being big Streisand fans. ="

Glenn Gould (no relation), too.

Luciano Pavarotti, too. He even mentions her in his book, specifically her Classical Barbra album which he admired.

Lucy story from Lee Tannen, author of "I Loved Lucy: My Friendship with Lucille Ball."

(On the car radio) Someone was singing 'Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas'. "I hate all female singers!" Lucy said, turning down the volume.

Tannen: "Lucy, what do you mean? You love Barbra Streisand, Judy Garland and Lena Horne!"

Lucy: "Those are actresses who sing. Jesus, don't you know anything?"

Sorry, but Jane Fonda is brilliant in "Julia," as is Vanessa Redgrave.

The scene in the cafe is breathtaking, and Fonda's expression when Julia tells her that her daughter is named "Lillie" is just beautiful.

Shirley MacLaine could never have pulled that off. Streisand couldn't have, either. Julie Christie, perhaps, but Fonda was perfection.

R387, I still think that was Jane Fonda bullshit. Streisand was not going to get the role in Julia no matter what she or Jane said.

"especially Minnelli, who felt that the original ending featured some of her best acting."

Every notice that most everyone says I coulda won an Oscar of that scene wasn't cut? We can't evaluate it, so might as well claim it was your best acting.

Jane Fonda has never convinced me she's anyone other than herself whether she's in drama, comedy, or sci-fi.

And Streisand HAS?

Streisand wasn't the one doing those Viet Cong radio broadcasts.

That book sounds good, R396. I just ordered it from the public library.

I like cheesy little memoirs by friends of stars, find their mundane nuggets more revealing and fun than weighty biographies. Nothing good like this has ever been written about Barbra, I don't think. One day I hope.

Lots of people are going to come out of the woodwork after she dies, but not before.

R402, a very careful first hand account of pre-fame Streisand - My Life with Barbra, by her gay boyfriend Barry Dennen.

Alternate ending, r383....

Rent-a-Cop also had an alternative ending that would have cinched a second Oscar for Liza had it not been cruelly left on the cutting room floor.

I'm sure she would have won an Oscar for her Evita screen test as well.

Law & Crime:

Adam Schiff: President Trump ‘Doesn’t Give a Sh*t’ About What’s Good for America

^ Well....oopsie.

Funny Lady was bad, but does it really warrant impeachment?

Roll call!

[quote] Funny Lady was bad, but does it really warrant impeachment?

No, but I do!

Wendy Hiller won a best supporting actress award for Separate Tables and was pretty angry because her best scenes WERE left on the cutting room floor. So she was pretty much how the fuck did I get this? And not in a happy way. More in a rubbing salt in the wound way.

A journalist asked Hiller what she hoped the Oscar would bring, and she said, “Lots and lots of lovely MONEY!”

[quote]Adam Schiff: Diva Babs ‘Doesn’t Give a Sh*t’ About What’s Good for Movies!

Adam Schiff: She IS Too Old for Mama Rose

Oh dear....what have I started?

We love you for that, r408.

Adam Schiff: Barbra Streisand ‘Doesn’t Give a Sh*t’ About What’s Good for Roslyn Kind!

Oh c'mon r419, does ANYBODY give a shit about Roslyn Kind?

R420=Mrs. James Brolin, Malibu

Roslyn made her own kind of music....

I always got Roslyn mixed up with Julie Budd

Julie mixed herself up with Babs....

Roslyn’s the one who’s pretty enough to get ice cream.

Why doesn’t she whip THIS number out in her sister’s concerts?

You’re telling me!

You’re telling me!

Roslyn’s the one with only one marriage, to a gay guy. No dates that we know of. She also giggles uncontrollably like a 7 year old.

428 replies? Strongly hate aka love , perhaps ?

Julie Budd was a tiresome Streisand imitator.

We hear a lot about roles she turned down in the 70's, but I wonder what she turned down in the 80's? There must have been some.

Julie Budd is not a Streisand imitator, darling. She was a teenager in 1969 when she got on Sullivan because she resembled Streisand and sang in the same style. Roslyn Kind's career started the same way. Neither of them would have gotten the time of day if there were no similarities to Babs. The difference is that Julie blossomed into quite a good singer and has worked consistently, while Roslyn languished away...a job here and there, then appearing on The Nanny. I don't know how she supports herself, she must be on Barbra's payroll along with Jason.

Julie Budd auditioned for Evita in a Chanel suit.

Julie Budd = real name Edie Erdman

Roslyn Kind = real name Rosalind Kind

Roslyn Kind auditioned for Coco in rags.

"Coco in Rags" was a smart little experimental play with music presented by Ellen Stewart at Cafe La Mama.

Lainie and Julie. All of these NY Jewish girl singers know each other well - Julie, Lainie, Karen Wyman, even Leslie Gore when she was alive, other... It's like a sorority. I don't think Streisand has it in her to be friends with former rivals, too insecure.

Huh. I have no memory of Karen Wyman.

[quote]Coco in rags

We were never in "Rags."

I love her voice, great clip, R437. Karen still works.

I WAS Rags.

[quote] I don't think Streisand has it in her to be friends with former rivals, too insecure.

Why would Barbra want anything to do with those losers?

Lainie is a convicted shoplifter and a danger to society.

Barbra became a tired imitation of herself by the end of the 1980s. Her desire to stay modern and current meant she gave crap songs better renditions and they deserved while treating great material frivolously. Case in point: her dance Pop version of “Shall We Dance,” which she might’ve actually been able to pull off if she had done it during the disco years. Instead, she drowns it in synthesized riffs that would make Alfred Newman and Robert Russell Bennett turn over in their graves and bump into each other.

Not a Streisand imitator? Maybe not as a stated aim, but what in the world is this?

Also, I am an elder and I have never, ever heard of Karen Wyman.

Don't forget me. I actually understudied the bitch on Broadway.

This one's better, r444, plus you get Fanny.

Barbra is ludicrous every time she tries to sing R&B. Listen to her cover of Bill Withers’ “Grandma’s Hands” if you dare.

I was about 13 when Butterfly came out, a devoted Barbra fan. I was appalled by the album cover, grossed out by the FLY, and mad that they changed the distinctive typeface, which had been consistent since the first album. I hated all the pictures inside of her hanging all over Jon Peters. And I wasn’t crazy about the songs. Today however, I like a few of them. Even “Guava Jelly.”

Does Butterfly have "Life on Mars"? I once played it to a friend as a joke.

R448. Yes. David Bowie was said to be less than impressed. I wonder what Bill Withers thought of "Grandma's Hands."

David Bowie trashed it in a Playboy interview.

Barbra and Shirley MacLaine were very good friends for a number of years, up until the 2000's when they seemed to have a falling out.

They have the same birthday.

[quote]David Bowie trashed it in a Playboy interview.

Was that before or after his Nazi phase?

Shirley MacLaine filmed a "bit" for Barbra's New Year's concert.

It was stupid, with Shirley doing her tired schtick about having lived past lives.

"Bloody awful."

-- David Bowie, correct

Babs and Shirley were very friendly acquaintances, they were never "very good friends." In other words, Shirley didn't share her vast knowledge of the before and afterlife with her.

R446, She sounds amazing! Aretha couldn't have come close to singing this song as good as Barbra, and she was the Queen of Soul.

[quote]She sounds amazing! Aretha couldn't have come close to singing this song as good as Barbra,

For which Aretha remains rather grateful.

R455: This from the man who did Christmas specials with Bing Crosby?

[quote]For which Aretha remains rather grateful.

Yeah, so grateful she’s dead!

Bing Crosby is considered very cool for Christmas. Go into any Starbucks even today.

The other 11 months out of the year, he’s just a dead guy who beat his kids.

Pretty much.

The inside of the Butterfly album must be seen to be believed. It's basically a Jon Peters tribute collage.

Streisand recorded two Christmas albums despite being Jewish. Since most secular Christmas songs are written by Jews anyway, it’s just as well.

Johnny Mathis also recorded “Kol Nidre” for the same label.

Thank God she never married him.

R464, When the dick is that good, you do things like that.

Carole King did the same thing with one of her Ricks at the time. Those girls and their trophy men!

Yes R260

Outside of Christmas the once immortal Bing today is as popular as Al Jolson.

R464 It makes you wonder about Barbra and her "strong woman" persona.

It seems very needy to plaster your album with photos of your boyfriend who is just using you to get into the industry.

R468 Carole King was always insecure about her looks. If a cuter, younger guy with a big dick looked at her, she would get out the checkbook.

That guy was a drug addict who beat her. He was living in a van when they met. What a prize.

Apologies for going off topic, but this doesn't seem worthy of its own thread. Jon Peters recently listed his LA condo. Nice enough, though can't say I love the decor.

Barbra and Jim Brolin really lucked out finding each other. He's so handsome and seems a decent guy. Always liked the story of how, during a low point in his career, he drove wistfully past a big, glittery party at Barbra's mansion and felt left out and depressed, never imagining in his wildest dreams he'd end up marrying her, the greatest star. Funny how life works out sometimes, you just never know. There's hope for us all!

R467, is the Jon Peters was a sex maniac troll. Peters was an illiterate asshole who voted for Trump. Why Streisand ever gave so much over to him surprised everyone who ever knew her and ruined her career in the mid-70s. Guess she liked dumb guys at that point.

Peters produced A Star is Born (1976), which was (adjusted for inflation), the biggest success of her movie career.

Peters produced A Star is Born ONLY because he was slipping Streisand big D on the regular.

R478: So he did to her what he and Peter Guber went on to do to Columbia Pictures after Sony bought it out.

Jon wasn't as persuasive as he thought. According to reports he promised Robert Stigwood to get Barbra to agree to do the film of Evita because they thought the soundtrack sales would add to the film's success but Barbra said no. She preferred to make Yentl and even though director Ken Russell pursued her when she was in London, she still said no.

I was the best Evita. Me! Me! Me!

In one of the Streisand biographies, there was a story of how Jon Peters wanted Barbra's voice to have a raspier rock & roll sound to it for the ASIB soundtrack, so he drove her up and down Sunset Boulevard in a convertible while she sang topless at the top of her voice. They did it late at night so no one would see them.

"Peters produced A Star is Born (1976)"

Ha ha, he did what he was told by Ms S, you fool.

Wasn’t the story that Jon was the first guy to push back, and that was part of the attraction?

Apparently he was a thug and she loved him because he frightened her. That was one of the things that came of the scandalous piece in New York magazine before A Star is Born came out.

One of her more recent bios claimed Barbra turned down the role in the original [italic]Freaky Friday[/italic] that ended up going to Barbara Harris, who originated the lead female role in [italic]On a Clear Day You Can See Forever[/italic]. That ended up becoming a hit and one of the few 1970s-era Disney comedies that actually holds up.

Re up thread about agents turning down roles that their clients were unaware of - apparently Sue Mengers turned down Playing for Time because she felt Barbra was a movie star and wouldn't do a television movie - a shame.

There was a stigma against movie actors doing TV at the time because it was a sign you were washed up.

That didn't seem to bother John Houseman.

Barbra turned down Bedknobs & Broomsticks, which eventually went to Angela Lansbury.

I have never heard her name in conjunction with that movie, R488. All the suggestions to play Miss Price other than Angie were younger than her, which would have made the relationship between Eglantine and Emelius a May-December romance once David Tomlinson replaced Ron Moody.

Pic of Fania Fenelon whose story was Playing for Time.

Barbra turned down "Deep Throat" because they wouldn't promise to film her going down on men only from her good side.

Her cult-like devotion to Peters reached its nadir when she agreed to his demand that she strike a second "a" from her full name and become known, legally and professionally, as "Barbra Jon Streisand-Peters". Only little Jason's plaintive cries of protests caused her to rethink the matter and retain "Joan".

Jason was right. I hope he pulled the "you're not my real father" card on him at least once.

R487 - Faye Dunaway did The Disappearance on Aimee for television after Network so she certainly wasn't washed up at the time.

... of Aimee

Uhh, did someone say Evita?

[italic]Network[/italic] was a movie about TV, so she would have been a hypocrite not to do at least do a movie-of-the-week.

Shelley Winters didn't mind, either, and it's not like they could take her Oscars away for making one crappy movie after another after she won two of them.

It's Streisand who still has a bug up her butt about TV. She thinks it's still 1975 in that respect.

The biggest problem I had with [italic]Yentl[/italic] is not the ludicrous conceit of Barbra as a teenage boy when it was no less ludicrous than Mrs. Edwards trying to pass herself off as a man in a similar movie a year earlier where Webster's dad played a homosexual. It was the fact that she hogged all the songs for herself in a movie where Mandy Patinkin is the male lead. I can think of plenty of spaces where his character or even Amy Irving's could have joined in and it would have made more dramatic sense.

She was more believable as Mrs. Dolly Levi.

Gently doesnt bother me just like Hello Dolly. The script is written as if she wasn't supposed to be convincing. Shame she didn't make movies. She wanted to do War of the Rose's but Danny De Vito didn't like her.

If Judi Dench can make movies at her age why cant Barbra ?

Because she wants to be in control of absolutely everything.

Because Judy is an old woman and accepts it. Barbra has had so much bad surgery she looks like a Picasso.

"There was a stigma against movie actors doing TV at the time because it was a sign you were washed up."

Right R487. Mostly movie STARS didn't do TV, John Houseman wasn't a star. That's the reason Elliott Gould didn't do the TV MASH. In hindsight he should have done the TV series since his movie super stardom had a short life. R486, movie stars didn't even do talk shows or TV interviews, it was beneath them and their status. Some movie stars went on specifically to plug a movie in the 1970s, but it was not common. You didn't see Streisand, Pacino or Redford on Johnny Carson. Burt Reynolds, yes, and I think it cheapened him and resulted in him not getting better roles imho.

[quote]Mostly movie STARS didn't do TV, John Houseman wasn't a star.

No, just an Oscar-winner co-starring with a Golden Globe winner and a future Emmy winner.

[quote] That's the reason Elliott Gould didn't do the TV MASH.

Only to end up doing a flop sitcom for Embassy right before Norman Lear dumped it on Columbia called [italic]E/R[/italic] that also enabled the rise of George Clooney before playing the father of a walking talking antisemitic stereotype on the worst TV show in history.

Streisand did Carson when she was a newcomer and he felt good about showcasing her to a national public. After that she became too big and too demanding to condescend to ever appear on his show again. Clearly the right side of her face didn't ruin her career chances.

[quote]"recent'??? It was forty-five years ago!

For this crowd, that's recent. There are still delusional queens who can't accept the fact that [italic]Bedknobs and Broomsticks[/italic] is the greatest movie ever made so they project LucyMAME's flaws onto it and its star who should have been allowed to reprise her Broadway triumph on screen, even attacking the far superior [italic]Auntie Mame[/italic] to do it.

I don't know what was more humiliating for Roddy, being the center of a lot of post-production editing battles, getting busted by the FBI for piracy, or this:

The other screenwriter besides Jay Presson Allen was Arnold Schulman. Yes, the same Arnold Schulman who is partially responsible for the hot mess that is [italic]The Movie: A Chorus Line[/italic].

[quote]r505 There are still delusional queens who can't accept the fact that Bedknobs and Broomsticks is the greatest movie ever made

Q: What does Angela Lansbury masturbate with?

A: Bednobs and broomsticks.

When did they stop making beds with knobs anyway? I imagine the sequel would be about Miss Price having to reverse the fortunes of a bedknob factory that is near bankruptcy. That would contradict the original film when she said "for your information, the most accomplished of witches can't make money out of thin air. Have you ever heard of a rich witch?" Keep in mind, the movie was set before Barbra Streisand was born.

Lansbury's collection

Roddy McDowall actually directed a movie called [italic]Tam Lin[/italic] that the studio took away from him and cut to ribbons and dumped into grindhouses under a different name, only for it to be restored after his death.

[quote]She wanted to do War of the Rose's but Danny De Vito didn't like her.

Praise be. That was one of Kathleen Turner's best performances, and, as in their previous movies, she really clicked with Michael Douglas. She was fierce and really turned the divorce battle into World War III; with Barbra it would have been a War of the Fockers yuck-fest. Turner was nominated for a Golden Globe, but didn't stand a chance because they put Jessica Tandy in the Comedy category too: for Driving Miss Daisy!

R503, do you not understand that there is a vast difference between Robert Redford the star in the 70s and John Houseman the elderly character actor with some awards in the 70s???

You mean the same Robert Redford who's giving up acting because all he can get anymore are Mickey Rooney's leftovers?

Why didn't Gower Champion direct more movies. I think he only had one credit and it was a flop comedy. He was an actor so he was familiar with camera techniques and he was certainly one of the top four director choreographers of his era.

[quote][R503], do you not understand that there is a vast difference between Robert Redford the star in the 70s and John Houseman the elderly character actor with some awards in the 70s???

Yeah, John Houseman was a much better actor. The whole "star" system was and is the problem because it values fuckability to str8 guys and recognizability to basic bitches over actually being appropriate for the part. See also: the umpteenth LucyMAME thread.

[quote] Why didn't Gower Champion direct more movies. I think he only had one credit and it was a flop comedy. He was an actor so he was familiar with camera techniques and he was certainly one of the top four director choreographers of his era.

Was this it?

He directed another film after not being allowed to choreograph the movie [italic]Hello, Dolly![/italic]. The film flopped and the screenwriter blamed him for misjudging the tone.

No, darling R514, this one:

You mean the mediocre actor who rode on Paul Newman's coattails until the day he died?

Fat, queen John Houseman has some fans today, huh?

Some of us who weren't alive in the days of segregation and universal sodomy laws were impressed to learn that Ricky's grandpa from [italic]Silver Spoons[/italic] also worked at the Mercury Theater with Orson Welles and helped develop what became [italic]Citizen Kane[/italic]. There was life before television, you know.