Hello and thank you for being a DL contributor. We are changing the login scheme for contributors for simpler login and to better support using multiple devices. Please click here to update your account with a username and password.

Hello. Some features on this site require registration. Please click here to register for free.

Hello and thank you for registering. Please complete the process by verifying your email address. If you can't find the email you can resend it here.

Hello. Some features on this site require a subscription. Please click here to get full access and no ads for $1.99 or less per month.

How Italians Became ‘White

Catnip for DLers who never tire of this subject

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 345October 25, 2019 7:10 PM

Italians are whte. Apparently, OP has never heard of Northern Italians, who are light-skinned and even blond.

by Anonymousreply 1October 12, 2019 8:28 PM

Italians were not white.

by Anonymousreply 2October 12, 2019 8:31 PM

Literally no-one outside the US thinks Italians aren't white.

by Anonymousreply 3October 12, 2019 8:36 PM

False. They were not white throughout Europe for many years.

by Anonymousreply 4October 13, 2019 12:25 AM

Maybe now, r3; however, I remember reading some memoir from the 30s or 40s. A young Englishman's father told him that WOGs started in France, i.e, the French and people farther south were not quite white.

by Anonymousreply 5October 13, 2019 8:53 PM

People from Italy and Greece were considered “niggers” throughout Europe.

by Anonymousreply 6October 13, 2019 8:58 PM

Wait so I'm half Calabrese so does that mean I'm half black??

by Anonymousreply 7October 13, 2019 9:37 PM

Most the Italians who immigrated to America were southern Italians who were darker looking r1.

And yes, Italian immigrants faced lots of racism and were absolutely not welcome with open arms as fellow white people.

This isn't just an American thing, there was absolutely prejudice from Northern Italians to Southern Italians, especially to sicilians.

by Anonymousreply 8October 13, 2019 9:46 PM
Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 9October 13, 2019 9:47 PM

They were not considered white for decades, and there were even concentration camps for Italians in America, and many were murdered just like many of the blacks.

by Anonymousreply 10October 13, 2019 9:50 PM

r1 makes a stupid comment that completely misses the point of the article that was posted.

by Anonymousreply 11October 13, 2019 9:53 PM

R7, Calabrese = colored race.

by Anonymousreply 12October 14, 2019 12:48 AM

Hey, mambo, mambo Italiano

Hey, mambo, mambo Italiano

Go, go, go you mixed up Sicialiano

All you Calabrese-a do the mambo like a crazy

by Anonymousreply 13October 17, 2019 8:42 PM

[quote] Most the Italians who immigrated to America were southern Italians who were darker looking

Poor George Bailey was trapped into frittering his life away, playing nursemaid to a lot of garlic eaters!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 14October 17, 2019 8:47 PM

[quote] Catnip for DLers who never tire of this subject

Why do DLers never tire of this subject?

by Anonymousreply 15October 17, 2019 8:48 PM

So sick of these racist, white supremacist threads. I hope OP wakes up one morning to find he's turned into an albino.

by Anonymousreply 16October 17, 2019 8:50 PM

In "It's a Wonderful Life," it's pretty clear that Italians were considered to be "undesireables" by American WASPS.

They were like the Mexicans of the early 1900's.

Which is why no self-respecting Italian should discriminate against today's immigrants. They were basically in that position, a hundred years ago.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 17October 17, 2019 8:50 PM

George Bailey was a bleeding heart LIBERAL!

by Anonymousreply 18October 17, 2019 8:53 PM

Italians are white to Americans for the same reason Americans think people like Native Americans and even Asians and sometimes Hispanics count as “white”. Due to the abhorrent history of the US as far as slavery goes, everything’s more black and white as far as race goes than it should be for them, literally.

by Anonymousreply 19October 17, 2019 8:53 PM

It's not a black and white issue. (See what I did there?) Which Italians were considered white, and when, and where, are rather complex questions. All non-peasant Italians from Florence north have been "white" for centuries, in Europe. Poor southern Italians, not at all, except for the aristocracies in each state, of course. The grandees were white, obviously. It doesn't have much to do with skin color.

The USA had, in its immigrant history, extremely uncultivated and unrefined opinions on these matters, of course.

by Anonymousreply 20October 17, 2019 8:57 PM

Sicilian Italians, who are darker Italians, came to the US as immigrants and were kept out of the "white" category because of that. The fact that they also existed in the same spaces as African Americans made it even worse for them

by Anonymousreply 21October 17, 2019 8:59 PM

[quote] Sicilian Italians, who are darker Italians, came to the US as immigrants and were kept out of the "white" category because of that.

My understanding is that Southern Italians are even discriminated against by Northern Italians, because they ARE darker. As if they are from some other country.

It's fucking bizarre, how racists think.

by Anonymousreply 22October 17, 2019 9:02 PM

I know my mother’s northern European family did not consider Italians to be equal to Northern Europeans. Darker skin, plus they had their own church which they built themselves & it was built so poorly it was condemned by the town.

They paraded statues of saints in the street, which was considered idolatry. Even the Northern European Catholics were like “Don’t look at us. We don’t stick dollar bills on ribbons attached to statues.” There was also organized crime. Unfortunately, a lot of Sicilians who moved into our town in the 1940s were involved in black market ration books for food and gasoline, so townspeople considered them suspect.

But......Sicilians were always able to buy houses in “white” areas. African Americans would never have been allowed to buy houses where Sicilian Americans were able to buy houses. Townspeople didn’t like it when Sicilian Americans moved next door because they planted tomatoes and grapes in their backyards and didn’t care about weeds that grew along the edges of the yard and in-between plants. So neighbors complained that they felt they were in some “awful Sicilian farm area, next they’ll buy goats!” But they could not prevent Sicilians from moving in. People would sell their homes to Sicilians, but not to blacks. So Sicilians were considered white-adjacent, like Greeks.

by Anonymousreply 23October 17, 2019 9:14 PM

I'd bet their asses were clean, delicious and juicy!

by Anonymousreply 24October 17, 2019 9:18 PM

Hell, during that era, even the Irish weren't "white"! And the Irish are physically as "Caucasian" as anyone!

There was a book that came out some years ago, about an incident in which a group of Irish orphans were sent from New York to Arizona by the Catholic church, to be adopted by respectable Catholic families... which in Arizona were largely Mexicans. The Catholic authorities on the East Coast didn't have a problem with that, they saw the Irish and the Mexicans as two inferior ethnic groups, presumably equal in their spots near the bottom of the social scale. But when the Irish children got to Arizona (or was it New Mexico) the prejudices were different, and the local authorities freaked out at the idea of "white" children being adopted by "brown" Mexicans.

So yeah, ideas of who was "white" varied by region in the US, but the ideas that whites had superior status did not.

by Anonymousreply 25October 17, 2019 9:19 PM

My ex is half Sicilian...he once showed me a picture of his great grandfather. The man was pure African. He had gorgeous, exotic looking kids

by Anonymousreply 26October 17, 2019 9:28 PM

Melissa Gorga from the Real Housewives of New Jersey, is pure blooded Sicilian Italian.

FYI.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 27October 17, 2019 9:34 PM

White skin is the result of one single mutation in our human genome; nothing to be proud of.

by Anonymousreply 28October 17, 2019 9:34 PM

Sicily has all skin colors but yeah plenty of "African" but remember, North Africa was part of the Roman Empire. Carthage isn't that far from Sicily. North Africa has plenty of skin color variety, as well. Berber mixed with Sinai Arabs and Ottomons and Andalusians. And some "black" african but not all that much for example in Tunisia.

by Anonymousreply 29October 17, 2019 9:34 PM

Two Sicilians and their bambino.

English WASPS in the early 20th century, would have been horrified to have them move next door!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 30October 17, 2019 9:37 PM

Sicilian grandees

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 31October 17, 2019 9:41 PM

Northern Italians were not considered white back then, in the USA. That’s a lie.

by Anonymousreply 32October 17, 2019 9:51 PM

[quote]People from Italy and Greece were considered “niggers” throughout Europe.

You don't know what you are talking about.

The people who created the Renaissance, the Roman Empire, who were among the greatest artists, scientists, explorers, architects, inventors of all time, the people who created Venice, Florence, Rome....were never considered “niggers” throughout Europe.

What a dope.

by Anonymousreply 33October 17, 2019 9:51 PM

R30 has never been to Sicily. Knows nothing about what the various people look like there and who is among their ancestry.

by Anonymousreply 34October 17, 2019 9:54 PM

Again, the Greeks and Italians were looked down upon through Europe.

Back then they were mostly brown, as they were invaded by Middle Easterns.

by Anonymousreply 35October 17, 2019 9:56 PM

[quote]Again, the Greeks and Italians were looked down upon through Europe. Back then they were mostly brown, as they were invaded by Middle Easterns.

As I said: what a dope. Italy was the center of European culture.

by Anonymousreply 36October 17, 2019 9:58 PM

For R35

The Grand Tour

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 37October 17, 2019 10:01 PM

[quote] Again, the Greeks and Italians were looked down upon through Europe. Back then they were mostly brown, as they were invaded by Middle Easterns.

I would have to disagree.

There is an 1826 painting called "Greece on the Ruins of Missolonghi," painted by a Frenchman.

In that painting, Greece is portrayed by a white woman, being "savaged" by dark people in turbans.

I think it's pretty clear that the artist was trying to garner sympathy for the white Greeks, being attacked by the brown/black people.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 38October 17, 2019 10:01 PM

Americans are very myopic on this question.

by Anonymousreply 39October 17, 2019 10:04 PM

It’s funny. I’m black/biracial and I get mistaken for Sicilian/ Italian all the time by non Italian white people and black people

by Anonymousreply 40October 17, 2019 10:07 PM

Just more lunacy...

Ask an Anthropologist. Although humans are believed to have descended from common African ancestors, there are only 3 categories into which all people on Earth can be categorized: Caucasoid; Negroid; and Mongoloid. Any single person can potentially be more than 1 of the 3 depending on genetics.

Native Italians are Caucasoid only.

Appearance has nothing to do with what someone actually is. Gay people should know this rule of Mother Nature as well as or better than anyone else! I agree with R39.

by Anonymousreply 41October 17, 2019 10:09 PM

R33

It’s not about who created the Renaissance- this about who 19th century Anglo-Saxon Protestants wanted to live with and treat as equals.

A lot of this stems from English society - an island nation, the English looked down on almost everyone ... French (“frogs”), Spanish (“swarthy”), Irish, etc., etc.

Only fellow Protestant Dutch, Scandinavians, and northern Germans were excluded from their disdain

by Anonymousreply 42October 17, 2019 10:16 PM

R36 has no clue what he speaks of.

by Anonymousreply 43October 17, 2019 10:20 PM

[quote] there are only 3 categories into which all people on Earth can be categorized: Caucasoid; Negroid; and Mongoloid

R41 is posting from the year 1950.

Honey, the "three-race theory" went out of use, a LONG time ago.

[quote] The word race itself is modern and was used in the sense of "nation, ethnic group" during the 16th to 19th centuries and acquired its modern meaning in the field of physical anthropology only from the mid-19th century. The politicization of the field under the concept of racism in the 20th century led to a decline in racial studies during the 1930s to 1980s, culminating in a poststructuralist deconstruction of race as a social construct.

Do you hear that? Race as a SOCIAL CONSTRUCT. Meaning? It's fucking made up.

It's made up, because humans belong to ONE RACE. The human race.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 44October 17, 2019 10:28 PM

That 3 race bullshit was proven bullshit YEARS AGO

by Anonymousreply 45October 17, 2019 10:30 PM

It's funny how in certain periods of European history Italians were seen as less than, obviously ignoring early European History!

In America, Italians were accepted as white only recently. It always cracks me up when you remind Italian-Americans of their history.

[quote]They were like the Mexicans of the early 1900's

The Mexicans were the early Mexicans.

by Anonymousreply 46October 17, 2019 10:31 PM

In the late 1700s northern Italy was ruled by the French then Austria and Russia which is why there are so many fair skinned blue eyed blonds there.

by Anonymousreply 47October 17, 2019 10:32 PM

[quote] It always cracks me up when you remind Italian-Americans of their history.

Former DL fave and model/escort Stevo Bobbio (now Theone) is of Italian descent and a huge and vocal Trump and wall supporter. He is anti-immigrant and when reminded that Italians were discriminated against, not considered white and were viewed as undesirable immigrants, he doesn’t take it kindly. He is from Staten Island.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 48October 17, 2019 10:40 PM

The FIRST colony in the USA was in now Florida, at St. Augustine. The colonizing Spanish were already a mixed ethnic lot on the boats that delivered them. Then, they intermarried and produced children with the Native Americans and then eventually slaves fleeing from the Islands.

by Anonymousreply 49October 17, 2019 10:46 PM

[quote]Italian immigrants faced lots of racism

By definition, racism does not include prejudice by people of the same race against each other. You must have meant prejudice or bias instead of racism.

by Anonymousreply 50October 17, 2019 10:51 PM

St. Augustine, Florida, is the 4th grade class trip. They're taken to the oldest school house in America, every year and taught that r50,.

by Anonymousreply 51October 17, 2019 10:53 PM

^r49, sorry.

by Anonymousreply 52October 17, 2019 10:55 PM

R44, I never said anything about race theory. OP and the remainder of commenters brought up that. You and some others have a fundamental misunderstanding about the difference between race, ethnicity and other factors. Of course we're all part of the human race. Read carefully -- I never used the words "race" or "race theory". A superior or pure race does not exist.

An Internet link, especially from a disreputable source such as Wikipedia that can be edited by anyone with internet access, is not acceptable concerning proven concepts taught in university Anthropology courses. I'd receive an "F" if I did what you did.

The topic of this thread is about Italians. They didn't "become white" because according to Anthropology they've always been caucasoid other than those individuals who happened to have ancestors who originated from an entirely different region of the world and were of different ethnicity and race, which is nobody's business. I'm not going to debate about semantics.

-41

by Anonymousreply 53October 17, 2019 10:59 PM

White dick, white dude.

by Anonymousreply 54October 17, 2019 11:00 PM

R48 he’s pretty dark for a so-called white person.

Why are so many porn whores so pro-Trump, aside from the fact that they’ve probably fucked the entire Trump family many times over.

by Anonymousreply 55October 17, 2019 11:03 PM

One of my grandfathers disparaged other ethnicities all of the time, Irish, Italians, Poles, Chinese, Japanese. He was an equal-opportunity offender.

The other set of grandparents were forced to marry in a pastor's parlor because he was a Catholic and she was a Protestant. Both families insisted on two separate receptions, excluding each other. My grandparents had to shuttle back and forth the entire night. My grandfather's Catholic family disowned him, so my father has never identified with people who share his surname.

We all know about the "family bachelor". They were ignored until they died, and then the family realized these men acquired wealth. Suddenly everyone wanted the will to be challenged so they were not denied compensation.

by Anonymousreply 56October 17, 2019 11:05 PM

[quote] White dick, white dude.

This is such an odd and simplistic statement, and very out of the blue.

HOWEVER. I must say that it is kind of accurate.

"White" people most definitely have "white" dicks and nipples. More pinkish, actually. Mostly Northern Europeans.

The next shade darker, would be brownish dicks and brownish nipples. Usually asians, mediterranean people, native americans, hispanic americans, etc.

The darkest shades of people have the darkest colored cocks and nipples. Mostly sub-Saharan Africans and people from the Indian Subcontinent.

It's not exactly scientific, but it's a good indicator about where people fall in the "color" or shading spectrum of humans.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 57October 17, 2019 11:09 PM

Can't see the OP article behind the paywall

by Anonymousreply 58October 17, 2019 11:12 PM

There are people who honestly think race is this immutable thing? That everyone has always agreed about what race is what, for millennia? Really? Come on. None of us is that stupid, please. That there's actually this thing called Caucusoid, and the only other options are Negroid or Mongoloid? Really?

by Anonymousreply 59October 17, 2019 11:20 PM

To make it simpler for those who have comprehension problems:

Regardless what you are, nobody shall ever be able to identify by sight exactly what you are. Anyone who believes that has serious problems I can't solve.

by Anonymousreply 60October 17, 2019 11:26 PM

[quote] nobody shall ever be able to identify by sight exactly what you are

You have it wrong.

People identify you STRICTLY by sight. If they see white, they think white. If they see "other," then you are other.

What they will never be able to identify, is your true ethnic background.

You have no idea how many people are "passing" as white, despite having African, Asian, and other backgrounds.

by Anonymousreply 61October 17, 2019 11:29 PM

[quote] One of my grandfathers disparaged other ethnicities all of the time, Irish, Italians, Poles, Chinese, Japanese. He was an equal-opportunity offender.

A political science professor of mine back in the late 90s/early 2000s told us a story of how he had recently visited a colleague’s home. The colleague was a professor at another university. My professor was Polish. I’m don’t know the nationality or ethnicity of the other professor but presumably Northern European. Everything was going well, and they were discussing books and the other professor’s large library/collection. The other professor responded something to the effect that’s it’s a pity he’ll have to move soon and sell the house. My professor asked him why he had to move. The other professor responded “They’re moving into the neighborhood.” “Who?” my professor asked. “The Italians” the other professor responded. My professor said he promptly left and never talked to the man again. Yes this was an isolated incident and involved two old Northern European men, but it wasn’t all that long ago.

by Anonymousreply 62October 17, 2019 11:30 PM

I had an Italian-American friend who described herself as "half Italian, half Sicilian" which confused me. My WASP elderly relatives did not consider Italians as white.

by Anonymousreply 63October 17, 2019 11:34 PM

The ones passing are often pretty damn white r61. Some people just decided in the 18th and 19th centuries for cultural and political reasons that only pure whites were actually white. It's like the argument about who is gay and who is bi and who is straight. One gay encounter makes you a homo. One straight encounter against a bunch of gay encounters makes you ... a homo.

And often you only get to be white by having a particular religion as well. Are Jews white? The assholes at Charlottesville sure didn't think so. Are the muslim peoples of the Caucuses actually Caucusoid? That's a tricky one, isn't it.

by Anonymousreply 64October 17, 2019 11:40 PM

My elderly German neighbor does not consider Italians white. She recognizes they come from Europe, but she does not see them as white.

Italians just have to understand many do not see them as white. What can you do?

by Anonymousreply 65October 17, 2019 11:43 PM

Fine by me if they aren't white to you. More (WHITE) Italian jocks for the rest of us!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 66October 17, 2019 11:45 PM

White-adjacent

by Anonymousreply 67October 17, 2019 11:52 PM

R61, you helped proved the point I was trying to make because as a black retired Navy officer stated to me recently, "We're still fighting the American Civil War." However, I don't want to make this thread about racial issues.

It's impossible to determine by the color of a person's skin and features that person's precise race or ethnicity. They shouldn't matter except when someone wants to know his or her ancestry, which should be a private matter, but it's not.

by Anonymousreply 68October 17, 2019 11:53 PM

To clarify

We are not talking about European history, art or anthropological definitions of race.

We’re talking about North American prejudices of certain groups of people against other groups of people. These are not imagined prejudices; they were very real and stereotypes still exist.

When my WASP aunt married a dark skinned Sicilian American in the late 1940s it was said that she was ugly and “couldn’t get a white man.” It was also said that her husband married her “so his children will look more white.” That was a very real attitude in a small town in the US that had nothing to do with the renaissance or anthropological designations. The article were discussing, if you’ll remember is “how Italians became white.” It’s primarily about historical American bigotry.

by Anonymousreply 69October 17, 2019 11:56 PM

[quote]Fine by me if they aren't white to you. More (WHITE) Italian jocks for the rest of us!

Nobody is dissing Italian-Americans. We are just discussing the fact that many people do not see Italians as white.Big fucking deal. Your heritage shouldn't go down the drain just because some others do not see you as white.

by Anonymousreply 70October 18, 2019 12:08 AM

[quote] When my WASP aunt married a dark skinned Sicilian American in the late 1940s it was said that she was ugly and “couldn’t get a white man.” It was also said that her husband married her “so his children will look more white.” That was a very real attitude in a small town in the US

That's actually still the attitude today, except with different groups.

Today, a lot of African Americans, Asians, and Latinos will marry white people for that very reason.

Not trying to generalize here, but there's a lot of truth to that statement.

They want their kids to have light eyes (not prevalent in any other groups, other than Europeans), and fair skin. However, due to genetics, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Nevertheless, fair skin and light eyes are actually quite prized, amongst many minority groups. So that little story you told, isn't necessarily fiction R69.

by Anonymousreply 71October 18, 2019 12:13 AM

Did someone say Italian?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 72October 18, 2019 12:13 AM

[quote] So that little story you told, isn't necessarily fiction [R69].

Erm, it wasn’t fiction. It was real. My aunt (and my father’s) family were old time WASPs in our town. They weren’t rich WASPs, they were just old townies. Her husband was a very good looking young Sicilian American but not considered “white” by other WASP townspeople.

by Anonymousreply 73October 18, 2019 12:24 AM

Many Northern Italians could pass for Germans, they're so white.

by Anonymousreply 74October 18, 2019 12:25 AM

Google the history of Trieste.

by Anonymousreply 75October 18, 2019 12:29 AM

America, you bore me with all your talk of race.

by Anonymousreply 76October 18, 2019 12:36 AM

I agree that we Americans are obsessed with race, but it's because we are the most diverse country on Earth, and we also have about 350,000,000 people.

Plus, we have people from pretty much every country on the planet, living with us.

There's a lot to talk about.

by Anonymousreply 77October 18, 2019 12:38 AM

As someone of Eyetalian descent on both sides, this thread always amuses me. 😆 I'm always mixed up for other ethnicities/races, but I think that's because there aren't many visible Italians on the west coast. My skin tone is almost identical to Ralph Macchio -- would DL consider that 'white?'

by Anonymousreply 78October 18, 2019 12:45 AM

R41 is correct about race.

As for the article, despite the headline (and this thread's focus) the article was basically just another anti-Columbus Day piece by the NY Times.

by Anonymousreply 79October 18, 2019 12:51 AM

There was a thread about this a couple of months ago and someone posted articles proving how Italians were not considered white for many years in the states and the people arguing against that ended up calling the poster a psycho and blocking him because he laid down facts.

Articles from old Italians that moved to America, articles from WASPs that don’t classify Italians as white etc.

DL hates facts.

by Anonymousreply 80October 18, 2019 1:33 AM

Real Italians were pretty brown. The reason Northern Italy had so many white people was because it was taken over by many from France, while Southern Italy was invaded by Middle Eastern folks and black people also.

Italian Americans aren’t all that Italian. DNA tests became a mainstream thing to do now because of Italian Americans. And almost every one that does a DNA test finds out they’re hardly Italian at all.

by Anonymousreply 81October 18, 2019 1:35 AM

R81 Interesting... I hadn't heard that. Are we talking a bit of admixture, or they're something else entirely? Everyone has blips, but some say they're questionable in these sorts of tests.

by Anonymousreply 82October 18, 2019 1:46 AM

[quote] Articles from old Italians that moved to America, articles from WASPs that don’t classify Italians as white etc.

I recall one of these threads where an Italian-American poster wrote that his grandmother told him something like “You might think you’re white, but never forget the whites don’t think you’re white.”

by Anonymousreply 83October 18, 2019 1:47 AM

A girl I went to college with was Italian American, as were her parents but her Grandparents came here from Italy. Her grandparents changed their last name eventually when they were here because of the way they were treated. They learned English, lost the accent, changed their last names and erased the Italian to be treated with the same respect as whites.

by Anonymousreply 84October 18, 2019 1:51 AM

[quote]And almost every one that does a DNA test finds out they’re hardly Italian at all.

I know several Italian-Americans who did the Ancestry DNA test and all it determined was whether or not they were Southern or Northern Italian. Of course lots of people have some admixture, but there is pure Italian heritage as well.

by Anonymousreply 85October 18, 2019 2:00 AM

I’m friends with a WASP from the upper east side. His family has lived in the UES for generations, and he comes from old money. He always always always speaks about Italians and how clueless they are to their own History, not only in Europe, but in America. He said if they sat and read books by white American men from the 1800s and early -mid 1900s, they would be shocked how despised they were by whites.

He hates how Italians earned their white tag and says many of them have to be more racist than WASPs to prove their whiteness, that’s why so many Italians are awful toward black people. He uses Giuliani as an example for this all the time.

by Anonymousreply 86October 18, 2019 2:00 AM

Those DNA tests break down where you’re from. They’re more than Italian. I assure you.

My friend only has 13 percent Italian, despite being raised “Italian” and having an Italian surname and all.

by Anonymousreply 87October 18, 2019 2:01 AM

I know he's an insufferable twat, but Nico Tortorella is 100% Italian and he looks so white he could pass for Anglo.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 88October 18, 2019 2:01 AM

How do we know he’s 100% Italian?? Lmao he isn’t.

by Anonymousreply 89October 18, 2019 2:02 AM

r87 those tests just say Italian, not anything else. If you had some Arab DNA, it would definitely be in the results. It's like saying there's no English or French ethnic groups.

Tortorella's entire heritage it Italian.

by Anonymousreply 90October 18, 2019 2:04 AM

We don’t know if his entire heritage is Italian. We haven’t seen the DNA results. And this is what DNA results look like in 2019. It’s broken down.

Where did you get the idea Nico is 100%??? Lmaoooo Nico is far from 100% Italian. He has an Italian name. And he says in his book he isn’t pure Italian but his mom won’t have it.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 91October 18, 2019 2:11 AM

Odd that you think there isn't an Italian ethnicity, that it's all something else. Granted there's admixture in Italy (just like everywhere else), but there is an Italian ethnic group. It would be like saying there is no French ethnicity, they're really a mix of English and German or something along those lines.

by Anonymousreply 92October 18, 2019 2:14 AM

R92 Agreed, I find it odd as well, but there a slew of odd people here on the DL when it comes to concepts of race, identity, or skin colour. Many ignorant people stuck on their false beliefs. Too much white supremacy and Northern European supremacy as well.

by Anonymousreply 93October 18, 2019 2:22 AM

r93 I think they're mostly older and are from a very different time.

by Anonymousreply 94October 18, 2019 2:24 AM

No DNA test comes up with just one thing in 2019. No one is 100% anything.

by Anonymousreply 95October 18, 2019 2:27 AM

R94 Yes, quite possibly. At the same time though, some seem inordinately proud of "whiteness" or a WASP background. There are real seething racists here as well, let's not fool ourselves for a minute on that one.

by Anonymousreply 96October 18, 2019 2:28 AM

Which famous white men have yellow skin?

by Anonymousreply 97October 18, 2019 2:38 AM

[quote]People identify you STRICTLY by sight. If they see white, they think white. If they see "other," then you are other.

A friend of mine in college was part Latino and part black, and it was clear from his appearance. However, everyone treated him the same as everyone else. I think it was because he acted like everyone else and didn't do anything to be separate. I believe if people completely assimilate, then they aren't an "other".

by Anonymousreply 98October 18, 2019 3:19 AM

My coworker is 98.5% Ashkenazi Jew. She's the only person I've ever met with fewer than 5 designations on her DNA chart.

I'm part Sicilian and my family members act like we're nothing but that. However, nobody has exceeded 25% Italian on either Ancestry or 23&Me. Most of us clock in at 14% or less, with Greek, Arab, Ashkenazi, German/French, and some junk DNA from parts of Asia.

I have 1.5% African, but it's not from my Sicilian side- my lily white bio mom has the same African regions on her results.

by Anonymousreply 99October 18, 2019 3:27 AM

[quote] The Moors weren't big on interracial dating, apparently.

And rape.

by Anonymousreply 100October 18, 2019 3:32 AM

[quote] and some junk DNA from parts of Asia.

What's that mean?

by Anonymousreply 101October 18, 2019 3:36 AM

I've never known any Sicilians who got their DNA tested, but several Italian-Americans came back with results that just said Italian, and a few percentage points of Greek or German.

by Anonymousreply 102October 18, 2019 3:39 AM

[quote]What's that mean?

"Junk" DNA is what falls in the 1% or less category. It often indicates where parts of haplogroups branched off from each other, sharing common original ancestry but not necessarily in direct relation to each other now.

by Anonymousreply 103October 18, 2019 3:44 AM

[quote] They learned English, lost the accent, changed their last names and erased the Italian to be treated with the same respect as whites.

Many Jewish people did the same thing.

by Anonymousreply 104October 18, 2019 3:45 AM

Lots of German-Americans did the same thing during WWI. There was a lot of anti-German sentiment in the US at the time.

by Anonymousreply 105October 18, 2019 3:48 AM

Nico Tortorella looks totally Italian/Italian-American to me. That he has white skin doesn't change the ethnic look. It was especially obvious when he was a Twink. Grew up with plenty of this type.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 106October 18, 2019 3:52 AM

Was Prince, the singer, white?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 107October 18, 2019 3:54 AM

R107 No, as a matter of fact, Prince was decidedly purple, with a raspberry beret.

by Anonymousreply 108October 18, 2019 3:59 AM

Nico looks more French than Italian.

by Anonymousreply 109October 18, 2019 4:01 AM

Why is Madonna considered white and Gaga is considered black? Yet they're both Italian.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 110October 18, 2019 4:02 AM

Italians and Irish are both Catholic and were both discriminated against, but the Irish are very definitely about as white as you can get (although some early Neanderthal bones were dismissed as being Irish, not pre-human.

So I’m going with the Italians only being considered “black” to the degree that they were treated worse than the Irish. And I don’t think they were treated that much worse. And southern Italians ARE more African than Northern Europeans. Yeah, they aren’t “black,” but genetically they are more black than Norwegians.

by Anonymousreply 111October 18, 2019 4:04 AM

Gaga is considered black?

by Anonymousreply 112October 18, 2019 4:04 AM

[quote] Why is Madonna considered white and Gaga is considered black? Yet they're both Italian.

Do they not both reheat pasta? Does not the 100th person believe in them? If you prick them do they not bleed?

by Anonymousreply 113October 18, 2019 4:06 AM

Irish were hated for being Catholic. Italians were hated for being Catholic and “non white”.

by Anonymousreply 114October 18, 2019 4:06 AM

I think of Italians as being Mediterranean people.

It should actually be a classification.

To me, people around the Mediterranean, share a similar look. From Southern Spain, to France, to Italy, Greece, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco.

These are ancient peoples, and they have been trading with each other, and inter-mingling, for thousands of years. Much more so than the rest of the world.

They share a similar look and similar diets. The biggest difference would be language.

Other than that, Mediterranean people are very much alike. Olive skin and dark, wavy hair.

by Anonymousreply 115October 18, 2019 4:09 AM

I am Italian American and the only time this shit ever comes up is when I visit the East Cost NYC, New Jersey etc. There is just a lot of old school racist there. I am sure the OP is probably from there.

Since he keeps posting these threads about Italians over and over and over again, it's pretty obvious he has a secret hard on for Italians. But he is so racist to him they are black and there in lies his internal conflict.

by Anonymousreply 116October 18, 2019 4:10 AM

[quote]southern Italians ARE more African than Northern Europeans. Yeah, they aren’t “black,” but genetically they are more black than Norwegians.

A National Geographic DNA study in the early 80s refuted this- only 3% of tested Sicilians had any discernable African ancestry.

Like I mentioned upthread, my African came from my blonde hair, blue eyed mother's side, not the Sicilian side. None of my other Sicilian relatives have any African DNA.

However, I suspect that we all originated from Africa at some point, and it's just a matter of degree as to how much of that ancestry is detectable.

by Anonymousreply 117October 18, 2019 4:12 AM

I've lived in England, France, Switzerland, Italy and Egypt with some time in Tunisia. Nico Twink looks like the Twink boys in Italy.

by Anonymousreply 118October 18, 2019 4:13 AM

[quote] Olive skin and dark, wavy hair.

That description reminds me of Palo. We were both in the Legislative Youth Program. He was a few years older than I. Very cute, dark curly hair, dreamy eyes.

by Anonymousreply 119October 18, 2019 4:14 AM

R117 sweetie, go to many towns in the Midwest and South. They’ll look at you crazy if you think you’re the same as them lmaooooo

by Anonymousreply 120October 18, 2019 4:14 AM

R118 no, you didn’t. And no, he doesn’t.

by Anonymousreply 121October 18, 2019 4:15 AM

Liza Minnelli overcame so much diversity.

by Anonymousreply 122October 18, 2019 4:15 AM

[quote] However, I suspect that we all originated from Africa at some point, and it's just a matter of degree as to how much of that ancestry is detectable.

I think a distinction should be made here between sub-Saharan Africans and North Africans, the latter of the two being Arabic and Berber in origin more than anything else. Ultimately we all originated from sub-Saharan Africa, but the DNA tests calculate percentages of more recent lineage.

by Anonymousreply 123October 18, 2019 4:17 AM

[quote] Liza Minnelli overcame so much diversity.

I was molested! Why does everyone forget that?

by Anonymousreply 124October 18, 2019 4:17 AM

I forgot to add that I find Mediterranean people INCREDIBLY hot.

by Anonymousreply 125October 18, 2019 4:18 AM

[quote]To me, people around the Mediterranean, share a similar look. From Southern Spain, to France, to Italy, Greece, Lebanon, Israel, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Morocco.

Southern Europeans and North Africans are distinctly different-looking.

by Anonymousreply 126October 18, 2019 4:20 AM

London, Paris, Geneva, Cannes, Alassio and Cairo. Suck it. From New York and with plenty of Italian neighbors. Nico certainly does not have a gallic nose, nor a great Roman nose. He looks like cute peasant Napoli stock. In the close set eyes, too.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 127October 18, 2019 4:24 AM

You could plop him down in Ireland and Nico would fit right in.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 128October 18, 2019 4:33 AM

r127 if you had no idea who Nico was, you would think he could be any number of nationalities.

by Anonymousreply 129October 18, 2019 4:34 AM

Dear Nico Troll,

Please start your own fucking thread.

Love,

Datalounge

by Anonymousreply 130October 18, 2019 4:34 AM

R115, you forgot Turkey!

by Anonymousreply 131October 18, 2019 4:35 AM

"African Haplogroup L lineages are relatively infrequent (less than 1%) throughout Italy with the exception of Latium, Volterra, Basilicata and Sicily where frequencies between 2 and 3% have been found."

Not sure if they made a distinction between Arab/North African and subSaharan, r123.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 132October 18, 2019 4:38 AM

[quote] you forgot Turkey!

And Syria!

by Anonymousreply 133October 18, 2019 4:38 AM

I could see Ireland but not France. Ireland has the black irish, after all. Anyway its hardly worth arguing over since it proves the point that nowadays Italians are seen as white as any other white euro.

by Anonymousreply 134October 18, 2019 4:38 AM

They became white? They've never done such a thing!

by Anonymousreply 135October 18, 2019 4:41 AM

...

by Anonymousreply 136October 18, 2019 4:45 AM

[quote] I could see Ireland but not France. Ireland has the black irish, after all.

Southern French look very different from Northern French to me.

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres

by Anonymousreply 137October 18, 2019 4:52 AM

After spending time in Tuscany, I wondered why (as a American) I had never met anyone from Toscana? The Italians I met were always from Sicily, so I was surprised when the Tuscans looked like my relatives. Austria - is not far. The Aldo Adige, the Alps are the Alps.

by Anonymousreply 138October 18, 2019 5:00 AM

R78 Oh honey, if you're Macchio's color, you are definitely not white. Nobody sees this boy and thinks white-white.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 139October 18, 2019 5:08 AM

Yutes.

by Anonymousreply 140October 18, 2019 5:12 AM

No one other than sociopaths has ever thought of Ralph Macchio as anything other than white.

by Anonymousreply 141October 18, 2019 5:17 AM

This is the same kind of racist bullshit I hear from people who think Italian food is only pizza, spaghetti, meatballs and "red sauce"

Take them to a restaurant with more northern style food and the freak out saying its not "real" Italian. they think its some kind of gourmet fake version.

by Anonymousreply 142October 18, 2019 5:19 AM

Not true r141, no matter how that makes you feel.

by Anonymousreply 143October 18, 2019 5:20 AM

[quote] This is the same kind of racist bullshit I hear from people who think Italian food is only pizza, spaghetti, meatballs and "red sauce" Take them to a restaurant with more northern style food and the freak out saying its not "real" Italian. they think its some kind of gourmet fake version.

Big Night

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 144October 18, 2019 5:24 AM

[quote] if you're Macchio's color, you are definitely not white

No wonder he still looks so young at 57.

Black don't crack! lol

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 145October 18, 2019 5:26 AM

You get your information about Italians from campy satires R144? That explains everything.

by Anonymousreply 146October 18, 2019 5:26 AM

OP, I am white you stupid bitch. All the rest of you are pink, blush, freckled, tan, but you are not white. Stop pretending, you are the lower class dark skins in my world.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 147October 18, 2019 5:32 AM

My totally Sicilian father was adopted by an Irish family, and he sticks out like a sore thumb in their family photos from his youth (or yute, for R140). They are all painfully pale and white, and he is as dark as an Arab. Strangers ask me my ethnicity fairly often, they can't quite figure what my background is, and whatever they guess is usually wrong. I'm just happy because I tan well, have good skin, and the natural oils have acted like a fountain of youth - I was carded buying cigarettes for a co-worker yesterday and I turned 40 this year (and I could give a shit if anyone here believes that or not). Thank God I'm a greasy wop.

by Anonymousreply 148October 18, 2019 5:34 AM

White people yogurt

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 149October 18, 2019 5:35 AM

Greek yogurt

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 150October 18, 2019 5:37 AM

Photo please, R148.

You sound hot!

by Anonymousreply 151October 18, 2019 5:40 AM

[quote]there were even concentration camps for Italians in America, and many were murdered just like many of the blacks.

Wtf are you talking about?

by Anonymousreply 152October 18, 2019 5:42 AM

The stupidest thing you can ask an American of indeterminate ethnicity is "Where are you from?" or "What's your nationality?" The former question will elicit the city or state from which they originate, and the latter will result in an answer of "United States" or "American". Ask what you really mean to ask, and you'll get the answer you seek: "Where are your ancestors from?" or "What's your ethnicity?" It's more accurate and less offensive.

by Anonymousreply 153October 18, 2019 5:48 AM

Some Italians were put into camps R152. Google history since you missed that fact from high school.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 154October 18, 2019 5:48 AM

I didn't miss it- it wasn't taught at my high school. Thanks for the link.

by Anonymousreply 155October 18, 2019 5:52 AM

[quote]I am Italian American and the only time this shit ever comes up is when I visit the East Cost NYC, New Jersey etc. There is just a lot of old school racist there.

I would have thought the opposite to be true. I grew up in northern New Jersey, in a neighborhood that was equal parts Italian, Irish, and Jewish, and I never heard of this "Italians are not white" nonsense until Datalounge, which I only became aware of in 2013.

by Anonymousreply 156October 18, 2019 5:53 AM

I grew up in California, I never heard that Italians were not white either. Only on the DL. I didnt even hear a single slur about Italians until I moved to LA and worked for a women who used to live in NY. She is the first one who told me what a Guido was. Of course since I look white even with an ethnic name she forgot I was Italian and then suddenly started tripping up over her words when she realized what she was doing.

by Anonymousreply 157October 18, 2019 5:58 AM

I think Italians on the West Coast tend to be more of Northern Italian extraction than those on the East Coast.

by Anonymousreply 158October 18, 2019 6:03 AM

R49 and R51, thanks for mentioning St. Augustine, FL, oldest city in USA. Spain ceded FL to USA in about 1821. Bigotry continues to thrive in Florida, a corrupt state. FL's flag is based on the Confederate flag,

Since it was mentioned this thread is about American bigotry and this topic was mentioned, for clarity Kentucky was allied with the Union during the American Civil War. KY was a poor state that never officially joined the war, and was also an Abolitionist (anti-slavery) state. President A. Lincoln, from KY, appointed James Speed his 2nd Attorney General, an Abolitionist from Louisville, KY. Louisville is an urbane city quite different from any other in KY.

R63, there's no difference between Southern Italians and Sicilians. My Italian friends explain there's an ongoing feud because many from Sicily consider themselves "an order above" Italians, just as descendants of Spaniards who colonized Cuba consider themselves superior to native Cubans, which is preposterous. A caste system still exists in Cuba.

R64, my understanding of anthropology is that Ashkenazi Jews and Arabs native to the Middle East are categorized as caucasoid, which includes Egyptians.

I was fortunate to have on my mother's side urbane German and Swiss Catholics. My father's side consisted mostly of German Protestants, many of whom are typical American bigots. Like my mother, I've always had friends of every color. We both suffered for that. The German and Austrian populations who brought Hitler and his Nazis to power were narrow-minded or racist Protestants who believed they were wronged. Former President Carter explained eloquently that's why most lower- and middle-class white Americans have voted for the GOP since the late 70s.

In America during the 20th century, nearly everyone except WASPs were considered "minorities" including Jews and Irish Catholics. My paternal grandparents lived in a "restricted area" where minorities weren't permitted.

Studies document that in general, heterosexual white Americans are bigots who consider themselves entitled, which is primarily how we got Trump in 2016. Remember, he did not win the popular vote. The Founding Fathers did want us to chose our President; we still do not.

My comment about American bigotry is the same as First Lady Jackie Kennedy's comment about Marilyn Monroe immediately after her death.... Both will go on eternally.

Everyone who reads this, please put aside your electronic devices, contribute every penny and every ounce of energy possible so that we can defeat President Trump (or the GOP nominee) in 2020. If we don't come together for that most important common goal, the USA is sunk like the Titanic.

-53

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 159October 18, 2019 6:07 AM

[quote]I think Italians on the West Coast tend to be more of Northern Italian extraction than those on the East Coast.

Where did you come by this quaint notion?

by Anonymousreply 160October 18, 2019 6:13 AM

[quote] Former DL fave and model/escort Stevo Bobbio (now Theone) is of Italian descent and a huge and vocal Trump and wall supporter. He is anti-immigrant and when reminded that Italians were discriminated against, not considered white and were viewed as undesirable immigrants, he doesn’t take it kindly. He is from Staten Island.

[quote] he’s pretty dark for a so-called white person. Why are so many porn whores so pro-Trump, aside from the fact that they’ve probably fucked the entire Trump family many times over.

[quote] He hates how Italians earned their white tag and says many of them have to be more racist than WASPs to prove their whiteness, that’s why so many Italians are awful toward black people.

Like so many porn whores who age out of the escort business, Stevo went into a "medical field" and got some license or certification to be a cosmetology nurse or some such thing. He's living in Staten Island, a hotbed of deplorablism, ethnic racism and conservatism (and pro-Trumpism). His cousin was recently killed and was identified as "Hispanic" on police reports based on his appearance. I wonder how that made Stevo feel to have a relative named as belonging to a group against which Trump builds his "base" and which Trump tries to exclude much like Italians were excluded and vilified. I think Stevo is a personification of the third quote above. He has "to be more racist than WASPs to prove their whiteness" because he doesn't look white at all.

by Anonymousreply 161October 18, 2019 6:15 AM

R99, thanks for sharing. Sounds like you're made of a delicious recipe. I won't ask for a photo, but won't avoid viewing one.

The Italian escort from NY you guys mentioned has a great body and attractive skin; he's definitely swarthy. His face doesn't do anything for me.

by Anonymousreply 162October 18, 2019 6:53 AM

Well now you all know. Among Jurassic era DL eldergays, some remember their own elders who lived in a time in US history when Italian and Irish immigrants were "the other" therefore somehow also "not white". (Irish were a monkey race.). These same DL eldergays know many finer distinctions now lost to 99.9% of Americans, such as a Cornell diploma is an embarrassment, and uncut penis is an untouchable abomination.

We're telling you NOW so we don't have to tell you again, later.

by Anonymousreply 163October 18, 2019 9:05 AM

It's funny how the idiots on here are calling those of us (who have actually been to Italy and met Italians) or saying Northern Italians are white.

by Anonymousreply 164October 18, 2019 9:26 AM

Where does poor Brenton Thwaites, DL fave, fall on this dubious spectrum?

by Anonymousreply 165October 18, 2019 9:49 AM

Growing up Catholic, Italians were my best friends in grammar & high schools. I can’t imagine school without them.

by Anonymousreply 166October 18, 2019 11:08 AM

R139, lol! You're right and I honestly don't care at all. In the summer, I tan even more. 'White' is such an arbitrary term anyhow. I don't mind my apparent ethnic ambiguity.

I do have to say that the east coast seems to have a much stronger Italian-American identity -- I guess probably because of sheer numbers and a more shared history. I mean, there are Italians out here, but they're sprinkled around. There's not like entire towns and tribal enclaves of Italians, lol.

by Anonymousreply 167October 18, 2019 12:25 PM

Those beautiful white Italians are among my finest creations.

You sound like a trouble-maker, OP. Why do you ask ?

by Anonymousreply 168October 18, 2019 12:45 PM

[quote]uncut penis is an untouchable abomination.

Some truisms remain in any era.

by Anonymousreply 169October 18, 2019 1:00 PM

R145 so because he isn’t “white” means he’s “black”?

Why do DLers think the only people around are white and black?

by Anonymousreply 170October 18, 2019 1:00 PM

Let me guess, OP is an African American

by Anonymousreply 171October 18, 2019 1:02 PM

R171 African Americans view Italians as white more than white people do... so I doubt it.

by Anonymousreply 172October 18, 2019 1:06 PM

R170 Yes, yes- there’s a whole rainbow 🌈 of big dicks out there! What are we fighting for??

by Anonymousreply 173October 18, 2019 1:33 PM

My brother had a friend in high school who was German on both sides of his family and he was quite swarthy.

by Anonymousreply 174October 18, 2019 2:01 PM

R174, or possibly the mailman wasn't German.

by Anonymousreply 175October 18, 2019 2:03 PM

Why do northern Italian men look so different from southern Italian men?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 176October 18, 2019 4:27 PM

Because many in southern Italy aren’t Italian. Italy was invaded by the French long ago and procreated there with Italians.

by Anonymousreply 177October 18, 2019 4:37 PM

When a friend from Morocco applied for US citizenship, he considered himself brown. The application listed the race of North Africans (Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia) as white.

by Anonymousreply 178October 18, 2019 4:46 PM

Why do you think that r171?

For me and the Black folks I know we don't spend much time thinking about Italians. If you are an East Coast Black person you know Italians rival Southern Whites as some of the most racist motherfuckers in the country.

by Anonymousreply 179October 18, 2019 4:54 PM

[quote]I didn't even hear a single slur about Italians until I moved to LA and worked for a women who used to live in NY.

Ethnic slurs are not racism. There are ethnic slurs for all of the ethnicities in Europe.

by Anonymousreply 180October 18, 2019 5:05 PM

Slurs = racism

by Anonymousreply 181October 18, 2019 5:08 PM

I’m of a monkey race?

by Anonymousreply 182October 18, 2019 5:08 PM

[quote]The application listed the race of North Africans (Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia) as white.

That's correct. The good thing about having so few races among humans is that even the simplest country folk can do the process of elimination and determine that if someone is not one of the other races, then what's left is that they are white.

by Anonymousreply 183October 18, 2019 5:11 PM

R182 Nobody told you that about the Irish diaspora?

"American political cartoon by Thomas Nast titled "The Usual Irish Way of Doing Things", depicting a drunken Irishman lighting a powder keg and swinging a bottle. Published 2 September 1871 in Harper's Weekly"

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 184October 18, 2019 5:31 PM
Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 185October 18, 2019 5:32 PM

One doesn't become white.

by Anonymousreply 186October 18, 2019 5:32 PM

North Africans are not white.

by Anonymousreply 187October 18, 2019 5:44 PM

[quote]Because many in southern Italy aren’t Italian.

Can it get any stupider?

by Anonymousreply 188October 18, 2019 5:46 PM

Southern Italians have very little admixture from North Africa. The Moors didn't leave very much of a mark.

by Anonymousreply 189October 18, 2019 5:47 PM

Facial reconstructions of Ancient Romans show that they looked the same as modern-day Italians.

by Anonymousreply 190October 18, 2019 5:48 PM

R41, contemporary anthropologists actually borrow from contemporary sociology and say that race is a construct. The three categories are not used today.

by Anonymousreply 191October 18, 2019 5:55 PM

The problem here is that there are a lot of informed people and a lot of ignorant people.

Someone talks about how Rome and Greece are seen as the origins of European culture, so of course Italians and Greeks have always been considered by Northern Europeans to be white, equal, better, whatever. The Grand Tour proves it, they say.

Nonsense.

The whole point of the Grand Tour was to experience the Renaissance and antiquity - what Greece, Rome, and the Italian city states were perceived as having been before they "fell" from the pinnacle of civilization. The thought was that Rome, which had absorbed Greece, "fell" largely because they were overrun by "barbarians."

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 192October 18, 2019 6:01 PM

[quote]The whole point of the Grand Tour was to experience the Renaissance and antiquity - what Greece, Rome, and the Italian city states were perceived as having been before they "fell" from the pinnacle of civilization.

Bullshit.

The Brits on the Grand Tour saw Florence and the Florentines with their customs and lifestyle as the height of gentility.

by Anonymousreply 193October 18, 2019 6:14 PM

Who’s the guy at R176?

by Anonymousreply 194October 18, 2019 6:30 PM

One grand tour route was about sexual tourism. It passed through Paris to Geneva. (Some through Brussels to Basel). Then, in Lausanne (for the Geneva route), there were brothels always freshly filled with Swiss Alpine farm boys and farm girls, who were considered a great and disease free delicacy. Then the Grand St. Bernard pass to Northern Italy. Torino brought more exciting sex workers. Finally Florence for a long long visit. Side trips to Venice and Bologna. Then the more sensual thrill of Southern Italy (and the roughest trade, but by no means unattractive). I saw a documentary about the scene in Florence where there were gangs of extravagant peacock like young men (teens) who would get commissions from the tailors for delivering the English gentry as clients, and the English gentlemen would become dandified in Italy.

by Anonymousreply 195October 18, 2019 6:34 PM

r195's style of writing makes my skin crawl.

by Anonymousreply 196October 18, 2019 6:37 PM

[quote] R195's style of writing makes my skin crawl.

And what color is your skin precisely?

by Anonymousreply 197October 18, 2019 9:39 PM

[quote] R195's style of writing makes my skin crawl.

And what color is your skin precisely?

by Anonymousreply 198October 18, 2019 9:39 PM

Same here, r196. He makes it sound as if Florence fosse nel sud dell'italia.

[quote]Then the more sensual thrill of Southern Italy (and the roughest trade, but by no means unattractive). I saw a documentary about the scene in Florence where there were gangs of extravagant peacock like young men (teens) who would get commissions from the tailors for delivering the English gentry as clients, and the English gentlemen would become dandified in Italy.

by Anonymousreply 199October 18, 2019 9:50 PM

R196 Understandably so, and I feel the same reading R35 's response "invaded by all those Middle Easterns".

by Anonymousreply 200October 18, 2019 9:50 PM

We are informing you about the Grand Tour NOW, so we don't have to inform you LATER. Our style is "Helena Rubinstein School of Purple Prose Glamourpuss Travelogue" and deliberately sick-making. The documentary is real, here:

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 201October 18, 2019 9:59 PM

"White" is not a thing. "Caucasian" is, and Italians are Caucasian.

by Anonymousreply 202October 18, 2019 10:01 PM

R42

No one was excluded from English disdain, Darling!

by Anonymousreply 203October 18, 2019 10:05 PM

r176, Ever heard of Austria?

by Anonymousreply 204October 18, 2019 10:06 PM

This thread is funny to me. I'm Italian-American - 4th generation. My Italian side comes from a place midway between Napoli and Roma so I guess that marks me as one of those dirty southern Italians. But Io sono Americano.

That's right, with hazel eyes, curly blondish hair etc. Go figure.

by Anonymousreply 205October 18, 2019 11:10 PM

Peter Scanavino from Law and Order SVU, looks pretty damned white to me.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 206October 18, 2019 11:24 PM

it's

EYE-talians

by Anonymousreply 207October 18, 2019 11:25 PM

I never even heard this subject until DL. Of course they're white.

by Anonymousreply 208October 18, 2019 11:31 PM

[quote] he considered himself brown.

Meaning what? There's no such race called "brown". The only ones who use that term are crazy SJWs.

by Anonymousreply 209October 19, 2019 12:50 AM

Mocha-brown.

by Anonymousreply 210October 19, 2019 1:22 AM

The food in central and northern Italy seems different than what you find in southern Italy. Do they even have red sauce in northern Italy?

This pasta is from the Firenze area.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 211October 19, 2019 1:38 AM

The comments about Italians not being white are beyond ridiculous. I think someone is trying to provoke the Guidos from the NE, which I found to be the most racist people, right up there with the rednecks. I grew up Italian American in the midwest and Italian Americans there were not as racist as the ones I met in NY, NJ etc. I think it might have something to do with being forced to assimilate in the midwest rather than live in a tribal setting like Bensonhurst, Little Italy, etc. And yes, I'm white-- the old school WASPs can fuck off, their time is done. Love how the Jews ate their lunch!

by Anonymousreply 212October 19, 2019 1:39 AM

That sauce is probably Bolognese, r211, which has tomatoes in it, which makes it a red sauce. Not marinara, but red sauce nonetheless.

by Anonymousreply 213October 19, 2019 1:41 AM

Florence has the best sandwiches in the world. They make for a quick and delectable lunch for travelers in-between sightseeing.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 214October 19, 2019 1:41 AM

[quote]The food in central and northern Italy seems different than what you find in southern Italy. Do they even have red sauce in northern Italy?

A meat sauce like that in Florence could be wild boar.

The classic dishes in Florence are grilled steak, white beans, bread soups, bean soups, sautéed black cabbage (Tuscan kale), sautéed turnip greens, sautéed swiss chard, porcini mushrooms, black pepper stew, wild boar stew, fried rabbit, or stewed rabbit or chicken, roast pork, pork ribs, squid with black cabbage, risotto, small meatballs (NOT on pasta), fried breaded cutlets of chicken or veal....it's very different from Southern Italian cooking. And not well known among Americans. Of course there are all kinds of pasta dishes but pasta is a first course.

by Anonymousreply 215October 19, 2019 3:01 AM

[quote]That sauce is probably Bolognese

It's not a Bolognese. Which is made with ground meat and is the specialty of Bologna, of Emilia

As I mentioned above it's probably wild boar. It could be duck.

This is a dish of "pappardelle al ragù di cinghiale"...wild boar sauce. As you can see it's like the photo you posted.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 216October 19, 2019 3:15 AM

The Italians in the West coast are the good Italians. The ones that stayed in the East coast were...undesirables.

by Anonymousreply 217October 19, 2019 3:39 AM

Born and raised in CT and the Italians around here were just like all the other white people. There was no "guido" element like the NYC and NJ Italians. Except for their last names, they were fully assimilated Yankees. I have no idea why the CT Italians were like that and so many just a few miles south were not.

by Anonymousreply 218October 19, 2019 3:42 AM

The waters, R218.

by Anonymousreply 219October 19, 2019 3:54 AM

Yeah, I dont get the racism of the East Coast Italians. I am on a Facebook group that is not supposed to be political, just about American Italian recipes. I thought it might be nice to see someones grandmother's recipe. Man, do some of the people there spew some really hateful shit. It's not even subtle, it's Trump paradise. All the progressive or liberal Italians left the group and the real Italians from Italy are really shocked like WTF is wrong with Americans, are you all like that? I think I need to leave that group as well.

And no its not because the West Coast is all from norther Italy. I don't know who made that up. Most of the Italians I know in California are from Calabria. About as far south as you can get.

by Anonymousreply 220October 19, 2019 10:19 AM

Well, in Northern Italia they eat more rice than pasta

Just saying.

by Anonymousreply 221October 19, 2019 11:36 AM

DL Eldergay race experts: were the Savoyards, of the Duchy of Savoy, French white or Italian white-adjacent?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 222October 19, 2019 11:41 AM

R220, you should leave the group.

by Anonymousreply 223October 19, 2019 2:26 PM

[quote]Yeah, I dont get the racism of the East Coast Italians.

On the East coast the Italian stuck together and created their Little Italys and Italian enclaves. Main streets and neighborhoods that were clean, safe and prosperous.

They held on to these areas and didn't abandon them as "white flight" was happening in other places.

In order to maintain what they had, their mentality was to shun and keep people away who they perceived as a threat to their way of life.

by Anonymousreply 224October 19, 2019 6:40 PM

Gee, a cuisine differs from one locale to another. Who'da thunk?!

by Anonymousreply 225October 19, 2019 11:14 PM

[quote] I dont get the racism of the East Coast Italians.

Watch the Godfather movie.

There's a scene where the five mafia families meet, and they are discussing selling drugs.

One of the conditions for allowing it, is that they keep it out of the Italian and "white" neighborhoods. They one of them says the line, "Sell it to the n****** and the dark people. They're animals, anyway."

That pretty much sums up their attitude towards blacks and Hispanics.

Interestingly, many Italians can also look Hispanic, and vice-versa.

by Anonymousreply 226October 19, 2019 11:24 PM

The dialogue to which r226 which is a bit more nuanced:

[quote] I don't want it near schools! I don't want it sold to children. That is an infamita. In my city I would try to keep the traffic in the dark people, the colored. They are the best customers, the least troublesome, and they are animals anyway. They have no respect for their wives or their families or themselves. Let Them lose their souls with drugs. But something has to be done, we can't have everybody running around doing just what they please, like a bunch of anarchists.

by Anonymousreply 227October 19, 2019 11:35 PM

Actually, that was the attitude of most whites in the time the Godfather was set. It wasn't just Italians.

by Anonymousreply 228October 19, 2019 11:42 PM

R222: White-adjacent. "White people" meant Great Britain, maybe Germans and Scandinavians.

by Anonymousreply 229October 20, 2019 12:56 AM

How come Hollywood, America's entertainment business, only had 2 basic races - white, negro. And Asian. In most film history, all the Mediterranean countries including white arabs could be romantic leads and all white colored people of North and South America. The only race walls were negro-white and asian-white. Italians were not "white adjacent" in Hollywood nor were Mexicans (if they were "European" white Mexicans).

by Anonymousreply 230October 20, 2019 1:06 AM

r230 it's just some DLers who are delusional and possibly crazy. You'd think Italians were black the way they carry on. Ridiculous.

by Anonymousreply 231October 20, 2019 1:15 AM

R230

And what about the Jews?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 232October 20, 2019 10:13 AM

[quote]I never even heard this subject until DL. Of course they're white.

Of course you haven't, unless you spend a lot of time on SJW social media. This argument doesn't exist anywhere in the real world. And it's only here because some (reverse) racist LSA trolls brought it here. It's an infection and we need an antibiotic, stat.

Same shit, different day----logic defying propaganda perpetrated by angry BLM harpies with a huge axe to grind. They think they can win allies by telling white people they really aren't white. Not a good strategy. If it's backfiring here--on a liberal site, it will induce even more division in the wider population.

by Anonymousreply 233October 20, 2019 10:55 AM

R230 it wasn't that simple. Those people were not always accepted, that took time to happen.

If anyone doubts that this is true, and that whiteness was guarded from people who "look white" look up videos of interviews with Desi Arnez and Lucy. They discussed how nervous they all were before the show aired that America would not be accepting of Ricky and whiter than white Lucy. So imagine how Italians and many others were viewed.

by Anonymousreply 234October 20, 2019 11:14 AM

Bullshit, R234. Everyone LOVED me. Including whiter than white Ava Gardner.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 235October 20, 2019 11:32 AM

Latins were seen as exciting Latins but they were still white enough. Not "white adjacent". There was racism in housing and hiring of course. But in things carnal and pleasurable, less so.

by Anonymousreply 236October 20, 2019 11:46 AM

Explain Omar Sharif's success. Excitingly Egyptian but no race taboo.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 237October 20, 2019 11:50 AM

Gilbert Roman. AKA Luis Antonio Dámaso de Alonso

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 238October 20, 2019 11:55 AM

I think Puerto Ricans will transcend their color and become white.

by Anonymousreply 239October 20, 2019 12:11 PM

Funny how everyone seems to think that whatever race they are not is beneath them,

The coincidence of birth always puts them on top

by Anonymousreply 240October 20, 2019 12:21 PM

[Quote] I think Puerto Ricans will transcend their color and become white.

Suddenly, when whites realize they are beginning a minority in the US, they will embrace Latinos as white

by Anonymousreply 241October 20, 2019 12:21 PM

It’s my understanding that the emergence of prominent Italians, particularly actors like Al Pacino and Robert Deniro, helped move Italian Americans into the white category

by Anonymousreply 242October 20, 2019 12:23 PM

I knew Italians were bianchi long before I heard of DeNiro or Pacino.

This is perhaps THE stupidest line of thinking you vaginos have ever perpetrated.

by Anonymousreply 243October 20, 2019 1:03 PM

[quote]If anyone doubts that this is true, and that whiteness was guarded from people who "look white" look up videos of interviews with Desi Arnez and Lucy. They discussed how nervous they all were before the show aired that America would not be accepting of Ricky and whiter than white Lucy. So imagine how Italians and many others were viewed.

You people are so fucking stupid.

One of the very biggest TV stars of the 1950s was Perry Como. His show ran from 1948. It was a was always in the top 10.

He always mentioned his Italian heritage and occasionally sung in Italian on the show.

"An example of Como's popularity came in 1956, when Life conducted a poll of young women, asking them which man in public life most fit the concept of their ideal husband: it was Perry Como"

" A 1958 nationwide poll of U.S. teenagers found Perry Como to be the most popular male singer, beating Elvis Presley, who was the winner of the previous year's poll."

In the 1950s he had a 12 year contract with NBC.

"In 1959, Como signed a $25 million deal with Kraft"

That would be about 220 million dollars in todays money!

And what about " The Frank Sinatra Show" 1950-52 and his Timex specials

"In 1957, Sinatra formed a three-year $3 million contract with ABC. ABC agreed to allow Sinatra's Hobart Productions to keep 60% of the residuals, and bought stock in Sinatra's film production unit, Kent Productions, guaranteeing him $7 million."

In the 1950s people like Dean Martin, Bobby Darin, Vic Damone, Frankie Laine, Mario Lanza, Al Martino, Connie Stevens, Frankie Avalon, Connie Francis, Louis Prima...etc were all over the TV

by Anonymousreply 244October 20, 2019 1:17 PM

[quote] logic defying propaganda perpetrated by angry BLM harpies with a huge axe to grind

Why does the Bureau of Land Management get mentioned on so many DL threads?

by Anonymousreply 245October 20, 2019 1:52 PM

Marylin and Joe DiMaggio.

One of the more famous interracial marriages.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 246October 20, 2019 2:06 PM

I believe there are eldergays well over 70 who are referring to their parents' experiences when THEY were young, on the Eastern seaboard, so a century ago.

by Anonymousreply 247October 20, 2019 3:21 PM

You have to remember that DL eldergays stopped paying attention to the world decades ago. It's not just the race and ethnicity shit, it's a lot of other shit in threads here, like why Millennials are lazy because they're not buying houses and why can't they just pay for college working a part time job etc. etc. Old, bitter and out of touch to a degree that's rather alarming.

by Anonymousreply 248October 20, 2019 3:25 PM

R241 that's already happened in Chicago

by Anonymousreply 249October 20, 2019 3:55 PM

[quote]It’s my understanding that the emergence of prominent Italians, particularly actors like Al Pacino and Robert Deniro, helped move Italian Americans into the white category

Oh Good Lord.

We needed the 1970s actors Al Pacino and Robert DeNiro to move Italian Americans into the white category?

So Alan Alda was considered what race exactly? And Anne Bancroft? Sonny Bono? James Darren? Dom DeLuise?, Ben Gazzara? Paula Prentiss? John Saxon? Connie Stevens ? Frankie Valli? Frankie Avalon? Fabian? Dean Martin? Tony Bennett? Bobby Darin? Kaye Ballard? Richard Crenna? Yvonne De Carlo? Vince Edwards? Buddy Greco? Vic Damone? Jerry Vale? Anthony Franciosa ? Aldo Ray? Guy Williams? Ernest Borgnine? Victor Mature ? Frank Sinatra ? Perry Como? Don Ameche ? Lou Costello? Jimmy Durante ? Nancy Sinatra? Frankie Lane? Robert Loggia?...and etc and etc...?

by Anonymousreply 250October 20, 2019 4:36 PM

[quote]Suddenly, when whites realize they are beginning a minority in the US, they will embrace Latinos as white

No, it's the other way around. Latinos who identify more with White culture than Latino..

by Anonymousreply 251October 20, 2019 4:41 PM

[quote]Marylin and Joe DiMaggio.

There is an old video on Youtube where they're called interracial.

by Anonymousreply 252October 20, 2019 4:53 PM

White parents wouldn't let their kids listen to Connie Francis records back in the 50s because she was considered non-white. Crazy!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 253October 20, 2019 4:56 PM

Fabian looked almost WASPY to me.

by Anonymousreply 254October 20, 2019 5:00 PM

Fabian looked almost WASPY to me.

by Anonymousreply 255October 20, 2019 5:00 PM

[quote]There is an old video on Youtube where they're called interracial.

Oh please. Sports figures of that era like Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra, Rocky Marciano etc. were considered nothing other than white.

by Anonymousreply 256October 20, 2019 5:07 PM

White or not, they are Roman Catholics.

Papist scums.

No and thank you.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 257October 20, 2019 5:17 PM

[quote] Oh please. Sports figures of that era like Joe DiMaggio, Yogi Berra, Rocky Marciano etc. were considered nothing other than white.

Clearly you were wrong.

by Anonymousreply 258October 20, 2019 5:24 PM

[quote]Clearly you were wrong. —Youtube

Post it please. Looking forward to seeing it (and who ever said it).

Thanks in advance.

by Anonymousreply 259October 20, 2019 5:34 PM

My grandmother, born in Massachusetts in 1899 to Italian immigrants, was named Mary but would sometimes go by Marie because she thought it made her sound “French” and not Italian.

My Dad would always kid her, his mother in law, as coming from Sicily, and she would also quickly correct him and say Napoli. They’re all gone now, but I did manage to track her parents to 19th century Naples, after all.

by Anonymousreply 260October 20, 2019 5:40 PM

R5 never have the French been considered as Italians, it never happened. The French are Gauls and Franks, coming from Germany. In the west of France there are Celts. They are even in the north especially mixed with the English. They share a border in the south with Italy but they do not have the same complexion. During the massive immigration of Italians to Marseille, mainly, the Italians even mocked on the part of the French. In America, the French do not have the same history as the Italians. The French are the first and oldest America allies since they are the ones who will save the Americans' ass during the war revolution. They were also "owners" of Louisiana until Napoleon sold it. To confuse Italy and France, there are only uneducated and ignorant Americans to do it.

by Anonymousreply 261October 20, 2019 6:02 PM

[quote]They share a border in the south with Italy but they do not have the same complexion.

Laughably ridiculous.

by Anonymousreply 262October 20, 2019 6:11 PM

R262 Maybe that's laughable for an ignorant. FYI Italians were even discriminated by the French during Italians massive immigration in France because they were (and are still) darker than the French. So you can laugh all you want, but you cannot rewrite history and facts.

by Anonymousreply 263October 20, 2019 6:21 PM

When the EU considers design matters, like for cars, they use the Dutch as representative for the tallest population, and the Sicilians as representative for the shortest population.

Northern Italians are taller and may even be blonds. The North is more industrial and wealthy. There’s some interest in an independence movement in the North, as they consider the South to be corrupt layabouts and moochers.

by Anonymousreply 264October 20, 2019 6:22 PM

[quote]The French are Gauls

The Gauls settled in Piemonte. Dope.

by Anonymousreply 265October 20, 2019 6:22 PM

[quote]Maybe that's laughable for an ignorant. FYI Italians were even discriminated by the French during Italians massive immigration in France because they were (and are still) darker than the French.

LOL.

Have you ever even been to Piemonte? Torino? Aosta? Cuneo?

The Gauls settled in Piemonte.

Just stop with your ignorance.

by Anonymousreply 266October 20, 2019 6:25 PM

R264 Italian blondes are extremely rare

by Anonymousreply 267October 20, 2019 6:25 PM

For the imbecile troll on here, yes French are Gaults

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 268October 20, 2019 6:39 PM

Well Switzerland has an Italian speaking and semi-culture region and there are plenty of blonds. There is a "blond belt" through the Alps to include France, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Slovenia. Also Bavaria is the place in Germany with more blonds. Not to say all mountain people are blond, but it's common enough. By the way, a quarter of SPANIARDS have light eyes. Yum!

by Anonymousreply 269October 20, 2019 6:40 PM

[quote] yes French are Gaults

No one here said they weren't.

But they also settled in Northern Italy.

I was adressing this dumbs comment: (The French) "share a border in the south with Italy but they do not have the same complexion." And "they were (and are still) darker than the French".

Swim club Brescia

Yeah, they're positively darker than the French!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 270October 20, 2019 6:44 PM

Following the Frankish victory at the Battle of Soissons in AD 486, Gaul (except for Septimania) came under the rule of the Merovingians, the first kings of France. Gallo-Roman culture, the Romanized culture of Gaul under the rule of the Roman Empire, persisted particularly in the areas of Gallia Narbonensis that developed into Occitania, Gallia Cisalpina and to a lesser degree, Aquitania. The formerly Romanized north of Gaul, once it had been occupied by the Franks, would develop into Merovingian culture instead. Roman life, centered on the public events and cultural responsibilities of urban life in the res publica and the sometimes luxurious life of the self-sufficient rural villa system, took longer to collapse in the Gallo-Roman regions, where the Visigoths largely inherited the status quo in the early 5th century. Gallo-Roman language persisted in the northeast into the Silva Carbonaria that formed an effective cultural barrier, with the Franks to the north and east, and in the northwest to the lower valley of the Loire, where Gallo-Roman culture interfaced with Frankish culture in a city like Tours and in the person of that Gallo-Roman bishop confronted with Merovingian royals, Gregory of Tours.

by Anonymousreply 271October 20, 2019 6:46 PM

[quote]By the way, a quarter of SPANIARDS have light eyes. Yum!

Only 25% ???

Well, no wonder the British discriminate them

by Anonymousreply 272October 20, 2019 6:49 PM

[quote] There is an old video on Youtube where they're called interracial.

Link please.

by Anonymousreply 273October 20, 2019 7:19 PM

[quote]There is an old video on Youtube where they're called interracial.

Maybe Marilyn was black?

by Anonymousreply 274October 20, 2019 7:21 PM

R270 I was adressing this dumbs comment: (The French) "share a border in the south with Italy but they do not have the same complexion." And "they were (and are still) darker than the French".

Have you ever been in France ? I doubt it. Yes French people are much more paler than Italians. and to take as an example a swimming team is ridiculous. On one hand because the French of this photo may be from different immigration, ( unlike Italy France was more open to immigrants), on the other hand because swimmers are generally more exposed to the sun. I was in Italy and I lived in France. Sorry to tell you, but the white French are much paler and blonds than the Italians because they are located further north. They are also Celts like the English and Germans. It's a matter of history and geography whether you like it or not. Seems like that makes you mad but facts are facts honey.

by Anonymousreply 275October 20, 2019 7:22 PM

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres, quarum unam incolunt Belgae, aliam Aquitani, tertiam qui ipsorum lingua Celtae, nostra Galli appellantur. Hi omnes lingua, institutis, legibus inter se differunt.

by Anonymousreply 276October 20, 2019 7:26 PM

[quote]I Italians were even discriminated by the French during Italians massive immigration in France because they were (and are still) darker than the French.

Northern Italians are quite fair. This notion that all Italians are olive-skinned and swarthy always seems to come from Americans.

by Anonymousreply 277October 20, 2019 7:28 PM

R277 Looks like you are frustated. French were even invaded by the Vikings. Viking's name in french is Normand. Their land Normandy. Sorry but when i see Macron i can tell that he is blonder than Salvini or Giuseppe Conte. And Macron was born in Normandy

by Anonymousreply 278October 20, 2019 7:37 PM

Everybody was invaded by the Vikings, dear. And we all know who the Normans were.

by Anonymousreply 279October 20, 2019 7:43 PM

R279 hahaha i knew you were frustrated. No, NOT everybody were invaded by the Vikings. You sound like a little Italian bitter and full of complexes. But i'm not even surprise, Italians were always obsessed by the color of skins. After all they invented fascism with Mussolini who was Hitler's idol and everyone knows what happened.

You can try all you want, but the majority of French people look like him (Macron), and the majority of Italians look like Salvini.

TRAVEL honey, travel!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 280October 20, 2019 7:56 PM

Two racists together. On the left the Italian on the right the french

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 281October 20, 2019 8:02 PM

Well French Canadian like Trudeau in Quebec are also paler than Italians, just saying. Not saying Italians are less pretty, you just need a pair of eyes

by Anonymousreply 282October 20, 2019 8:19 PM

Trudeau looks beautifully adjacent to me. A light creme color.

by Anonymousreply 283October 20, 2019 8:21 PM

IKR ? this frenchie can take me when he wants

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 284October 20, 2019 8:30 PM

R275 What is it about this sentence you don't understand?:

"(The French) "share a border in the south with Italy but they do not have the same complexion.""

The Gauls settled in Northern Italy. The people look no different than the French do on their side of the region.

A little history of Northern Italy:

"later, starting from the 5th century BC, the area was invaded by Celtic – Gallic tribes. These people founded several cities like Turin and Milan and extended their rule from the Alps to the Adriatic Sea."

"After the fall of the Western Empire, Northern Italy suffered heavily from destruction brought about by migration from Germanic peoples and from the Gothic War. In the 570s the Germanic Lombards, or Longobardi, entered Northern Italy from Friuli and founded a long-lasting reign (with its capital in Pavia) that gave the medieval name to the whole Northern Italy and the current name to the Lombardy region. "

"The end of Lombard rule came in 774, when the Frankish king Charlemagne conquered Pavia, deposed Desiderius, the last Lombard king, and annexed the Lombard Kingdom to his empire changing the name in Kingdom of Italy. The former Lombard dukes were mostly replaced by Frankish counts, prince-bishops or marquises."

by Anonymousreply 285October 20, 2019 8:36 PM

R280 Yeah Matteo Renzi and Marcon are soooo different in coloring.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 286October 20, 2019 8:44 PM

*Macron

by Anonymousreply 287October 20, 2019 8:45 PM

This is a really dumb and bigoted thread. Dumb and bigoted go hand in hand.

by Anonymousreply 288October 20, 2019 8:59 PM

Attenzione! Young Italian office workers lip dubbing.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 289October 20, 2019 9:09 PM

R271 and R285, would you please provide links? That period sounds fascinating.

by Anonymousreply 290October 20, 2019 9:12 PM

R290 Except that what R285 is saying is pure bullshit. French kingdom have nothing to do with Italy. Much more related with the UK kingdom since there were french kings that became England kings and vice versa. I knew Italians were fucking jealous, it's well known in Europe but i didn't how envious they were towards the French people, wow...

Ask me who was the king of the Francs (? His name was Clovis! He was French.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 291October 20, 2019 10:52 PM

Also here's the link of the dual monarchy of England and France.

(Alphonse, who currently lives in Spain (not in Italy), is the eldest male descendant of King Louis XIV. That's the great-great-great-great grandfather of Louis XVI, France's last king before the fall of the monarchy and the one who was guillotined during the French Revolution)

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 292October 20, 2019 11:03 PM

R290 Here's the link about Northern Italy

Which explains the Celtic – Gallic tribe invasion, the migration of Germanic peoples, Charlemagne conquering Pavia etc.

Also note:

"After the French Revolution in the late 18th century Northern Italy was conquered by the French armies, many client republics were created by Napoleon and in 1805 a new Kingdom of Italy, made of all of Northern Italy but Piedmont that was annexed to France, was established with Milan as capital and Napoleon as head of state. "

No wonder so many Northern Italians look similar to the French and more Northern countries.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 293October 20, 2019 11:09 PM

Do you mean grandson, retard?

by Anonymousreply 294October 20, 2019 11:10 PM

Thanks, R293.

by Anonymousreply 295October 20, 2019 11:13 PM

R23, was your mother Mrs. Gustav Ketterer?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 296October 20, 2019 11:15 PM

How could whites keep their hands off swarthy Italian men?

jungle fever?

by Anonymousreply 297October 20, 2019 11:16 PM

[quote]hahaha i knew you were frustrated. No, NOT everybody were invaded by the Vikings. You sound like a little Italian bitter and full of complexes.

And you sound like an absolute loon. The Vikings left a mark throughout Europe. Including much of Italy.

by Anonymousreply 298October 20, 2019 11:24 PM

R298 Yes and that poster is a total idiot.

The Vikings had settlements in Southern Italy and Sicily and is why you'll see light hair and eyes and fair skin in those regions.

"Norman, member of those Vikings, or Norsemen, who settled in northern France (or the Frankish kingdom), together with their descendants. The Normans founded the duchy of Normandy and sent out expeditions of conquest and colonization to southern Italy and Sicily ..."

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 299October 20, 2019 11:36 PM

R295 Serious and educated people know you're right if they ever studied history at school. But you are on DL a website full of trolls and Italians always had issues with the color of their skins. Always. No wonder why Italy systematically have racist leaders. They are known to be the southern Europeans that immigrate the most in other western countries but they don't want migrants in Italy. Every European know how racist they are. I'm British and even I can see a difference between the Italians and French. Just ignore the trolls who absolutely want to b Celtics, it's pathetic. Last time i went to Turin (northern Italia) i didn't see any Red or blonde hairs. Italians dream of being as white as Scandinavian but they have tanned skin, black eyes, black hair for the vast majority of them. Italians always had an inferiority complex. Mussolini was one them.

by Anonymousreply 300October 20, 2019 11:41 PM

R298 Much in Italy? Only in Sicily. You know how small Sicily is you idiot?

by Anonymousreply 301October 20, 2019 11:49 PM

[quote] but they don't want migrants in Italy.

Meanwhile the Brits vote for Brexit.

by Anonymousreply 302October 20, 2019 11:52 PM

There were two Sicilies!

by Anonymousreply 303October 20, 2019 11:55 PM

R303 Imbecile

by Anonymousreply 304October 20, 2019 11:56 PM

[quote] Last time i went to Turin (northern Italia) i didn't see any Red or blonde hairs. Italians dream of being as white as Scandinavian but they have tanned skin, black eyes, black hair for the vast majority of them.

You musn't have really looked, lots of Italians in that region are fair and blue-eyed.

by Anonymousreply 305October 20, 2019 11:59 PM

They have the best cocks!

by Anonymousreply 306October 21, 2019 12:00 AM

Oopsie my post was for R291 R292 not or R295 of course

by Anonymousreply 307October 21, 2019 12:01 AM

R158, a brief history of Italians in California. Initially, they were mainly from northern Italy and up until 1890, there were more Italian immigrants in the west coast than New England. This doesn't describe me though -- my mother is directly from Naples and dad is Italian-American of Sicilian extraction. He actually grew up in NY, and man, some of the stories from his youth sound like another world!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 308October 21, 2019 12:02 AM

[quote]Last time i went to Turin (northern Italia)....

Sure Jan.

by Anonymousreply 309October 21, 2019 12:05 AM

R 305 Yes sure, they are Scandinavian

*roll eyes* not a single person I met in Turin or Palermo was blond or red. blue eyes are rare. But you can not know that since you've never been there,you clown! of course it must exist, but not as much as in England, France, Belgium and Germany

by Anonymousreply 310October 21, 2019 12:13 AM

Italians are located in the south of Europe. They do not have the same climate as northern Europeans. So, logically, they are more skin mate, that's simple logic, simple science. Physically they look like the Greeks and sometimes to North Africans. They are very close to north Africa geographically.

by Anonymousreply 311October 21, 2019 12:26 AM

Do most Italian men know how to cook?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 312October 21, 2019 12:28 AM

I’m Italian American with blondish hair and green eyes. When people tell me that I have White privilege, can I tell them to fuck off?

by Anonymousreply 313October 21, 2019 3:40 AM

Yes, R313.

by Anonymousreply 314October 21, 2019 3:43 AM

[quote]When people tell me that I have White privilege, can I tell them to fuck off?

You certainly can.

White but not white-white.

by Anonymousreply 315October 21, 2019 3:45 AM

[quote]I’m Italian American with blondish hair and green eyes. When people tell me that I have White privilege, can I tell them to fuck off?

Sure, 99% of us already do..

by Anonymousreply 316October 21, 2019 3:48 AM

Sorry Italians, Datalounge has revoked your white status! Turn your cards in immediately.

by Anonymousreply 317October 21, 2019 3:54 AM

[quote]Italians are located in the south of Europe. They do not have the same climate as northern Europeans. So, logically, they are more skin mate, that's simple logic, simple science.

For the geographically challenged at R311:

Florence Italy is further North than Nice, Cannes, Montpellier and Marseille France.

Bolzano Italy is further North than Geneva and Lausanne Switzerland as well as further North than Lyon and Vichy France.

Milan and Venice are further North than Bordeaux and Grenoble France.

The most Northern part of Italy is further North than some parts of Austria.

What a dope.

by Anonymousreply 318October 21, 2019 3:58 AM

There goes my White Privilege, I wonder if reparations are in order.

by Anonymousreply 319October 21, 2019 4:50 AM

[quote] Do most Italian men know how to cook?

I would say yes, the majority. Most Italian men know at least a few good preparations of basic dishes. Even my dad, who is all thumbs in the kitchen, has a few good recipes up his sleeve.

by Anonymousreply 320October 21, 2019 4:58 AM

There was a point in time where even Germans weren't seen as white to the eyes of Anglo-Saxon Americans.

WASPs and Brits used to be the most race-obsessed people on Earth. The one-drop rule is actually more stringent than the Nazis' Nuremberg laws.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 321October 21, 2019 5:16 AM

Ben Franklin was not the culture. It was because of the Germans that the US refused to have an official language. They were accepted as white from the start, crazy quote (and who says it's accurate) notwithstanding.

by Anonymousreply 322October 21, 2019 12:17 PM

When Forest Hills, Queens was first developed around 1908. It was a highly restricted community. Only native born white protestants were allowed to purchase or rent there.

by Anonymousreply 323October 21, 2019 12:42 PM

Tutti gli Italiani sonno perfetti

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 324October 21, 2019 2:26 PM

[quote]Ben Franklin was not the culture. It was because of the Germans that the US refused to have an official language. They were accepted as white from the start, crazy quote (and who says it's accurate) notwithstanding.

First off, why would you try and cast suspicion on that quote? The eighteenth century wasn't that long ago, in terms of history. There are figures born over 2,000 years ago that we can reliably quote in much longer than that one paragraph. I highly doubt that it is possible to tamper with an entire paragraph of a relatively recent historical figure without historians suspecting fraud.

And secondly, the fact that Germans have always been recognized as white before the eyes of the law does not mean that they were Always accepted as such in American society of yore. Someone said above that, although the whiteness of Italians was suspected among more established groups, they never faced the legal restrictions imposed on blacks.

by Anonymousreply 325October 21, 2019 3:07 PM

* much greater length

by Anonymousreply 326October 21, 2019 3:08 PM

It's clear that many of you here don't follow human population genetics News closely, but you still want to speak authoritatively about the subject.

Sicilians have NO African ancestry. And the only part of Europe where North Africa has left a genetic impact lasting to these days is the Iberian peninsula, especially the western part of it, namely Portugal and Galicia.

Sicily and southern Italy as a whole, however, received very large genetic influence not from Africa but from the MIDDLE EAST. A recent study comparing genetic samples from modern and ancient populations shows that populations of what is now Iran first settled in Sicily in the Bronze Age.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 327October 21, 2019 3:26 PM

r265, you might want to look up the word "Gallic."

by Anonymousreply 328October 21, 2019 3:52 PM

They're a bunch of real fredos!

by Anonymousreply 329October 21, 2019 5:23 PM

Why aren't we talking about the ugly white Dutch with their massive peters?

by Anonymousreply 330October 21, 2019 7:15 PM

What the hell does an olive skin tone even mean anyway?

by Anonymousreply 331October 22, 2019 12:47 AM

It is a direct result from eating too many olives R331. Once you acquire it, it creates deep and irreversible epigenetic changes in one's DNA, and is therefore heritable.

by Anonymousreply 332October 22, 2019 3:05 AM

"I think Puerto Ricans will transcend their color and become white."

It will never happen. Puerto Ricans are not only part black, they're part Indian.

by Anonymousreply 333October 22, 2019 8:20 AM

R244 what the hell does that have to do with Desi Arnez, who is Cuban? That concern about whether or not America's whites would accept them as a couple came from Lucy and Desi's own mouths during an interview. Google it, it was a real concern for everyone involved. Luckily, he was accepted, but no one was sure he would be, before the show aired. Desi is by no means brown, or swarthy, so how do you think latino and Italian people who were would have been viewed?

by Anonymousreply 334October 22, 2019 8:30 AM

Check out number 9.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 335October 22, 2019 8:38 AM

9. "She fought for TV’s first interracial couple Did you know that Ball and Arnaz made TV history as the first interracial couple? Ball also had to fight to keep Arnaz as her TV husband.

Kathleen Brady, author of Lucille: The Life of Lucille Ball, told NPR in February 2014 that CBS didn’t want Arnaz, especially since the network was unsure about his accent and Cuban heritage. “CBS and its sponsor, Philip Morris cigarettes, were adamantly opposed to this,” Brady said. “They said that the American public would not accept Desi as the husband of a red-blooded American girl.” However, Ball defended Arnaz, and according to Brady, she told CBS that they’d have to either cast them both or neither of them."

by Anonymousreply 336October 22, 2019 8:40 AM

[quote]Desi is by no means brown, or swarthy, so how do you think latino and Italian people who were would have been viewed?

I answered your question.

Italians were considered white and fully accepted on TV. Perry Como and his huge success is an example. His show debuted years before "I Love Lucy". Perry Como BTW was Southern Italian, born in Italy.

And if you're talking about couples, well, there was Louis Prima and Keely Smith. They were one of the most popular acts of the 1950s.

Julius LaRosa was also a regular on TV and debuted before ILL. Same with Vic Damone. Jimmy Durante had a show starting in 1950 before ILL. There was the Frankie Laine Hour in 1950 before ILL. Etc and etc.

Italians were European. The experience of the Cubans and Italians was very different.

Here are two wildly popular swarthy Italians on the most successful variety show of the 50s singing in Italian.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 337October 22, 2019 4:03 PM

Italians don't look remotely like North Africans. Have you even seen one? North Africans look more like Brazilian mulattoes.

As for climate having something to do their skin color, that might be it, bit only to some extent. According to research on skin reflectance among human populations, Spaniards and the Portuguese are as light skinned as Belgians and Poles despite the widespread impression that they're really dark compared to other Europeans (see the image below for an example of such a study). Most likely they look darker because they tan more in their native countries, which, however, has no impact on the results of those studies because they analyze only parts of the body not often exposed to the sun, such as the inner side of the upper arm.

Italians, however, or at least Central and South Italians, do appear to be darker than other Europeans, though. Again, see the image below: the Italian sample, which is from Rome, was found to have the darkest skin among the four European countries analyzed.

North Italy is another matter; genetics studies show North Italians have about the highest frequency of alleles for light eyes and fair hair in Southern Europe, so presumably their skin is correspondingly lighter as well.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 338October 22, 2019 7:52 PM

People don't realize the variety in North Africa, either. Isabelle Adjani is half German half Kabyle. The Kabyle have their own looks. Often including light eyes and fair skin.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 339October 22, 2019 8:28 PM

I'm the OP who originally started this thread by simply posting the NY Times article that I found interesting because it described how badly the Italian immigrants were treated by the mainstream culture and how they assimilated into the mainstream culture. It is part of our history that people should know about.

One of the things that struck me when I moved to NYC years ago was the extreme prejudice against blacks exhibited by Italian-Americans and Irish-Americans (looking at you, Staten Island and Howard Beach). I sorta got how the white "lost cause" Southerners came about their bigotry. I could not understand however how immigrants who were treated so horribly when they arrived here (including lynchings) could, in a few generations become so racist themselves.

by Anonymousreply 340October 23, 2019 1:31 AM

Irish in Ireland and Italians in Italy are the same way r340.

by Anonymousreply 341October 23, 2019 1:35 AM

R340 More racist that the Whites who fled the city after the 1964 Equality laws? More racist than the Whites who barricaded themselves in gated communities or in the Levittowns that kept out Blacks?

by Anonymousreply 342October 23, 2019 1:37 AM

[quote]Sicilians have NO African ancestry. And the only part of Europe where North Africa has left a genetic impact lasting to these days is the Iberian peninsula

Yet my DNA results from 2 different companies, along with those of my half siblings who share the same father, shows almost 2% African, not all of it Northern. I agree that Sicilians have very low percentages- I'm the one who posted the 3% link further up- but to say we have NO African seems disingenuous. National Geographic's data and my results show it's possible, if not probable.

Even my lily white mother had measurable African results, also not Northern. The recent updates are showing more African DNA for everyone these days.

by Anonymousreply 343October 25, 2019 3:58 PM

So what if Italians are not white-white ? Look at the Basque/Spanish from the Southwest, they were treated like second class citizens by the white men that came from the East, I you don't see the Spanish bitching like little babies.

Just a few decades ago you could see the "[bold]No Spanish[/bold] or Mexican allowed" signs throughout the Southwest.

Italians = Babies

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 344October 25, 2019 4:15 PM

I don't care.

Bring me Encolpe and Giton.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 345October 25, 2019 7:10 PM
Loading
Need more help? Click Here.

Yes indeed, we too use "cookies." Take a look at our privacy/terms or if you just want to see the damn site without all this bureaucratic nonsense, click ACCEPT. Otherwise, you'll just have to find some other site for your pointless bitchery needs.

×

Become a contributor - post when you want with no ads!