Any advise on how to go Vegan and NEVER look back?

Are you a bottom?

You are the reason they're aren't more vegans.

My cholesterol was rising quickly. It was in the 250 range and I wanted to see if there were any alternatives to a lifetime of medicine.

I read The China Study. a book that is now considered a classic, on the scientific reasons for why veganism is better for you.

I went cold turkey and became a vegan and have never looked back.

My cholesterol dropped to 145, with the HDL and LDL is their perfect places--All by this diet change.

Did it cold turkey. Amazed at how easy it was.

I went lactoveg in stages, cutting down then out red meat, then eggs, then chicken/fish. Took about 6 months. In my case, going veg didn't do shit for my high cholestrol like a statin did.

The trick is to not get overly crazed about your dietary choices. For instance, I don't get overly concerned that the bikkie I'm offered with tea/coffee as a guest in someone's house may have eggs in it. I simply eat one or two appreciatively.

I have no plans to go Vegan, which I find extreme. And the constant quest for "vegan" substitutes, which are often tasteless.

To affect cholesterol, I've heard from many people that becoming vegetarian (whole continuing to eat cheese and other dairy) will not affect cholesterol much. Becoming completely vegan will

You cried over eating yogurt? Just kill yourself and let an animal eat you.

You have to ask, R1? He cried over yogurt.

About 25 years ago I became a vegetarian. After a few years, in my 20s, I still had high blood pressure. After going vegan (15 years ago) and losing weight, my blood pressure went down to normal range. When I go to the doctor for blood testing, my cholesterol gets flagged for being too low.

There are so many meat substitutes to help you make the transition. Most grocery stores carry more than one brand of veggie burgers, ground crumbles, chic-n, etc. Chipotle sells fake meat (vegan sofritas), and now Burger King's vegan Whopper has launched nationwide. I indulge in those things on the weekend. Throughout the week, my main source of protein is almonds, peanut butter, and quinoa.

We're apex predators with large brains that need a lot of energy. In other words, we are omnivores with the teeth and digestive enzymes to show it. Which isn't to say you can't be a vegan, but it's kind of pointless to agonize over the morality of eating a diet our species is designed to eat to the point of crying over spilt yogurt.

So figure out what you like to eat and then figure out how to adapt from there. You like yogurt and dairy? Look into nut cheese and plant-based milks. There are some excellent nut-based ice creams. Plan ahead and figure out what substitutions will work. And, if you don't know how already, learn to cook--check out Indian, Greek and Italian dishes. Learn everything you can about the many, many things you can do with legumes.

Or be a vegan 6 days a week and allow yourself cheese or whatever on the seventh or when meeting friends. Still better for the planet and you get the benefits that come with a bit of animal protein--i.e. that vitamin only found in meat--B12?

I haven't yet found a good non-dairy "yogurt." One thing I made that was delicious and non-dairy pudding made with Silk vanilla soy milk & chia seeds. Just chia seeds soaked in the vanilla milk plus a little bit a sugar.

I think it's easier to do in stages rather than cold turkey.

If you like mushrooms (I do), that's very meaty and satisfying.

[quote] We're apex predators with large brains that need a lot of energy. In other words, we are omnivores with the teeth and digestive enzymes to show it.

No, we're just a species that can survive in varied surroundings. That doesn't mean we should eat meat products at every meal. In fact, our teeth or digestive tracts look nothing like those of carnivores.

[quote] I haven't yet found a good non-dairy "yogurt."

I find the Silk made with almond milk the best. There's also a brand sold by Whole Foods but it's $4 for one cut so out of my price range

What about vegetable rights!!!

Beat your meat, not your vegetables.

Vegetarianism was very easy for me but being a vegan is difficult. Nutritional yeast works as an amazing cheese replacement. I still use it frequently even though I eat dairy.

I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

Vegan? VEGAN? You'll tear my hand-painted silk caftan out of my cold, dead hands!

First, watch The Game Changers on iTunes right now. Many world-class athletes are vegan and the strongest man in the world is vegan so don't let anyone tell you we need meat to be healthy.

Second, learn to cook and get into cooking. When you cook for yourself, your options are limitless and food becomes more adventurous. Don't depend on takeouts and processed food.

I've been vegan for over 16 years now. Best decision of my life.

Speaking of processed foods, that was quite a long list in R9's post. Vegan does not equate to healthy. Healthy eating equates to healthy.

I wonder if OP realizes that yogurt is not meat? I realize it's not vegan (it is an animal product) but she is preaching about how vile it is to eat meat and then has a breakdown over yogurt?

This is a weird thread. I think the OP was actually being totally sarcastic and trying out his hand at irony. But he did it so poorly that his attempt at humor is being taken seriously.

Nice, OP. Nice.

[quote]I don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

LOL. So you eat, what, vampires?

Watch "what the health". I went vegan that day.

[quote]We're apex predators with large brains that need a lot of energy. In other words, we are omnivores with the teeth and digestive enzymes to show it.

[quote]No, we're just a species that can survive in varied surroundings. That doesn't mean we should eat meat products at every meal. In fact, our teeth or digestive tracts look nothing like those of carnivores.

Your lack of understanding explains so very much about why you'd cry over yogurt.

If you can’t stick to a vegan diet, you obviously don’t want to be one.

(I don’t want to be one, either, but to each their own.)

Beans and rice are great for a Vegans or Vegetarian. I love making vegan cajun style red beans and rice. It's delicious and healthy. You can even add vegetarian sausage.

R12, Did I say we were carnivores? No, I said we were omnivores. No, our digestive systems don't look like those of cats, but they look even less like those of cows.

Having large brains takes a lot of energy--we didn't evolve as a vegetarian species. We can, thanks to the luxury of agriculture, manage as vegetarians, but we evolved to digest both animals and vegetables. I'm sorry if this upsets you, but it's one of those things that's obvious to anyone who's studied evolution.

Back to vegan foods--I've had better luck making nut cheeses than buying them. Yeast helps give nut cheese that earthy cheese flavor. Basically, a lot of vegan foods don't have that deep, savory quality (umami), so it helps to use the ones that do--mushrooms, tomatoes, olives, yeast (as an ingredient) can all help you feel less deprived.

Try a coconut milk yogurt--not the same as the real stuff, but has some similar texture/richness qualities.

I've been a vegan for 15 years now, and I wanted to warn people: After several years of veganism, when I had my annual physical, my doctor called me back in to tell me that my bloodwork showed a B12 deficiency. He seemed pretty worried. I had to go in for shots every two weeks for awhile, and then I switched over to vitamins. You place them under your tongue, where they dissolve. It brought my B12 level back up into the normal range. If your B12 level gets low enough, you can become temporarily mentally ill. So...don't let yourself get to that point.

Over all vegans don't live any longer than anyone else. And frankly, every vegan I've ever met was a mental case.

[quote]Having large brains takes a lot of energy

Well, that's something vegans need never worry about.

B12 is easy to get through most of the vegan meat replacements, and also nutritional yeast (which also has a lot of other great vitamins in it) where I think one spoon or two is more than your daily intake.

I went vegan cold turkey and didn't have any cravings or struggles, so I don't have traditional advice. One thing that may have helped is that the more I found meat and dairy off putting, the less I felt like I was missing anything. This girl is annoying, but the video is short and she explains many of the reasons why dairy is so grotesque. When your mind genuinely sees it this way, your stomach doesn't want it either.

Hats off to all of you. Cheese would be the obstacle I couldn’t get past. Real cheese of all varieties is one of life’s biggest pleasures and fake cheese wouldn’t do as a substitute.

forgive my ignorance, but what is wrong with yogurt, milk or eggs in regards to the treatment of animals?

[quote]I went vegan cold turkey

Ironic.

r33 Not to mention wool and honey.

R33/R35 Vegans see supporting the the wool and dairy industries as no different than supporting the meat industries as once the animals are no longer productive they get shipped off to slaughter. There's also the inhumane treatment many animals receive in these industries. Honey is a little more of a grey area and some vegans have no problem with it while some see it as exploitation of animals.

Perhaps vegans are right, in this day and age, where industry mistreats animals. In the olden days, it only made sense to use animals for our survival. We couldn’t have survived as a species otherwise. And traditionally, people didn’t waste a single part of an animal. At least antlers and bones were used as tools and ornaments, etc., and the spirits of the animals were honored.

[r33] dairy and eggs are the worst in terms of cruelty. They are consumed the most so they involve the most inhumane treatment possible. For ethical reasons, it's better to quit dairy and eggs before meat.

Or you could just keep chickens and be careful about where you source your milk.

By the way, the way to survive as a species is to be of use to humans.

R33 , good question. If you read the chapter in this book (Diet for a New America by John Robbins) about dairy animals, it will explain it.

Veganism is an eating DISORDER and from your own account you JUST DON'T HAVE WHAT IT TAKES! Murderer!

[quote] and meat-eaters' ignorance and evilness are disturbing.

You sound like you'll fit right in with other vegans.

[quote]Or you could just keep chickens and be careful about where you source your milk.

Thank you. I get so tired of these self-righteous vegans who think the rest of us love slaughtering animals. There are people who raise and maintain animals humanely - do some research and find them.

Virtue-signalling vegan bitch kvetches again. I eat meat to survive as I don't laugh at or mock the dead animals while munching on their meat. Vile? Fuck you, cunt.

R29

Adolf Hitler was vegan 🌱

According to the woman who cooked for him Hitler's favorite meal was sausages. Vegetarian (not vegan) meals were a medical prescription for stomach problems at the time.

R29, research suggest that vegans and vegetarians live longer, but like all food research it's hard to really nail that down to direct causation.

Thanks for the book recommendation, R40. I'm not R33, but I downloaded the Kindle version and look forward to starting it.

For R33, here's a quick thought regarding animal welfare from Howard Lyman (former rancher, now vegan), who wrote "Mad Cowboy" and "No More Bull." He said that, if you're a vegetarian for humanitarian reasons, i.e., because you don't want to see animals mistreated, you should be aware that battery hens and dairy cows have wretched lives.

OP - buy and eat a vegan sandwich. Then jump off a high cliff into the cold ocean.

[quote]He said that, if you're a vegetarian for humanitarian reasons, i.e., because you don't want to see animals mistreated, you should be aware that battery hens and dairy cows have wretched lives.

So do a lot of humans. I'd rather worry about and help them than be concerned about discontented cows.

It's possible to care about people AND animals, R49. You don't have to pick a side and say, "Well, people are suffering, so screw the chickens."

I have a pork loin baking right now. SUCCULENCE

Don't go through with it. Many vegans are mentally unbalanced.

They are no more unbalanced than the majority of people here R52.

Read The Vegetarian Myth. Vegans are cultists. Trying to reason with them is like trying to reason with cult members in Jonestown.

A life without bacon is not a life worth living.

I went on plant based diet about 3 months ago. I am 64. I found that your body really ages hellishly between 60 and 65 and Even tho I excercised my whole life and for decades went to the gym almost every day.....it didnt insulate me from health issues.

Ive always had food issues and have been on all kinds of diets but for a long time it was atkins. I ate nothing a few years ago for a year except turkey breast, non fat cottage cheese, and cheese. No carbs, ever. My PSA count jumped from 4 to 20 as to prostate which is really a red flag. In reading about an enlarged prostate/prostate cancer, there is suspected correlation between diet and prostate problems, specifically dairy is highly connected. It causes inflammation and so does eating meat. I am on meds to control effects of enlarged prostate and they work so far.

I was never heavy but I was over weight off and on. Im on blood pressure meds also. I was having chest pains and felt nauseated a few months ago. I knew if I went to a cardiologist they would have me on the operating table in an hr putting in a stent or some such.

Instead I went vegan, and my life literally depended on dropping weight fast........... No dairy, no fish, no meat, no chicken, no turkey etc etc. Ive dropped 35 lbs in about 3 months I can wear clothes I bought when I was at a much lower weight a decade ago.

It was easier this time around to stick to vegan/plant based as my life depended on it. Other stresses in my life also helped me push away the plate. I donate to peta and basically agree with their agenda which only reinforced going vegan all the more.

To answer your question, stick to the vegan diet for awhile and you dont even miss all the stuff you use to eat. Eat to live not the other way around.

Its easy to eat anything you want but its almost a guarantee if you reach your 60 s you will have major health complications. The body is very very forgiving when you are younger and it all catches up with you. Sadly.

[quote]Did it cold turkey. Amazed at how easy it was.

I love cold turkey! It's great with leftover mashed potatoes and corn.

R4, I love cold turkey and blue cheese

r56, what do you typically eat? I would think that a vegan (or vegetarian) diet would be very boring. Does anyone have any resource information? I'm not that good of a cook.

Yuck.

it helps to forget fish exist. If someone shows you four or five abstracts from PubMed showing the pescatarian diet has the lowest morbidity score tell them they are lying and cherry picking. Do this for every five abstracts from a variety of journals. Research scientists have nothing on orthorexics and activists when it comes to keeping up with the latest science.

If someone asks you about necessary fats for the brain argue that hexane-cleaned seed oils must be better than avocado oils , as avocados are not vegan. Accuse them of being shills for the avocado industry. Produce and upload a video on YouTube claiming that avocados, kiwis, butternut squash and almonds because of a system called “migratory beekeeping.” Commercial farms in states like California have to shuttle bees between farms in the backs of trucks because there are not enough native bees in the region to pollinate the plants on which they grow. Compare this commercial farming practice to the separation of migrant families at the border and the diaspora of ethnic communities. State that the trucks shuttling the bees are employed by cruel capitalists making the bees do uncompensated labour and are contributing to climate change.

If someone asks you what plants offer in 200g quantities the nutrients leucine, glycine, proline and collagen found in ianimals tell them those are either made up industrial names or carcinogens, or that Drs Esselstyn, Kahn and Greger say only 0.024 mcg of each is needed. if you can't remember the names just type in all caps, or shout if face-to-face 'PROTEIN IS MURDER!" or "BABY ANIMALS ARE DYING!" when someone in your line of sight is eating shrimp or clams or mussels.

it helps to forget fish exist. If someone shows you four or five abstracts from PubMed showing the pescatarian diet has the lowest morbidity score tell them they are lying and cherry picking. Do this for every five abstracts from a variety of journals. Research scientists have nothing on orthorexics and activists when it comes to keeping up with the latest science.

If someone asks you about necessary fats for the brain argue that hexane-cleaned seed oils must be better than avocado oils , as avocados are not vegan. Accuse them of being shills for the avocado industry. Produce and upload a video on YouTube claiming that avocados, kiwis, butternut squash and almonds because of a system called “migratory beekeeping.” Commercial farms in states like California have to shuttle bees between farms in the backs of trucks because there are not enough native bees in the region to pollinate the plants on which they grow. Compare this commercial farming practice to the separation of migrant families at the border and the diaspora of ethnic communities. State that the trucks shuttling the bees are employed by cruel capitalists making the bees do uncompensated labour and are contributing to climate change.

If someone asks you what plants offer in 200g quantities the nutrients leucine, glycine, proline and collagen found in ianimals tell them those are either made up industrial names or carcinogens, or that Drs Esselstyn, Kahn and Greger say only 0.024 mcg of each is needed. if you can't remember the names just type in all caps, or shout if face-to-face 'PROTEIN IS MURDER!" or "BABY ANIMALS ARE DYING!" when someone in your line of sight is eating shrimp or clams or mussels.

[quote]Any advise on how to go Vegan and NEVER look back?

63 responses and no "oh, dear" for the thread title? We're slipping.

Maybe it is a question of age?

Going vegan when you are old?

But as a DLer I do NOT age.

Nigella Lawson versus Gillian McKeith

R64 If I dedicated the time to correcting all of the spelling and grammar errors on DL, I wouldn't have time for cunty yet witty posts.

Do the “I only eat vegan for my health” vegans still wear leather shoes and eat honey? I really don’t know, which is why I’m asking.

Plants have a social life and communicate.

First world OCD problems.

[quote]I haven't yet found a good non-dairy "yogurt."

It needs to be one that I can cry over.

Buy some tofu and a neck brace

Variety. Make sure you do not fall into the trap of easy and quick, but boring.

OP

You should try breatharianism.

It is fantastic

OP

You should try Breatharianism.

Just fantastic!

[quote]Plants have a social life and communicate.

It's kind of depressing to think that my rhododendron is getting more action than I am.

You bitches really think we humans were meant to eat animals? You all have convinced yourselves that it's fine to make yourselves feel better for being deplorables fucking up the planet and eating living beings.

Anyway, is there a good YouTube channel that shows simple realistic flavourful recipes? Made by "regular" people not those who look like detached IG whores.

OP, what do you like to eat now? That would help people to give advice?

Read How Not to Die, The Engine 2 Diet, Thug Kitchen, Veganist, Forks Over Knives, Skinny Bitch, etc. Buy vegan cookbooks like those form the Sarno brothers, or Fran Costigan (for desserts). Watch docs like Vedgucated or Forks over Knives.

There's an enormous amount of help out there. Just look around.

Being vegan saves animals, saves the environment, and saves your health. So do it.

Yes, I believe humans are meant to consume animals. At this point in human history, it’s not mandatory for survival. But at one time it was. I’d like to know how long a human could live in the Stone Age without consuming any animals or animal products.

Please explain.

Ok R56, you've aroused my curiosity. When do you check your PSA levels again? You can easily check your blood pressure, is it consistent? How about your cholesterol, although I'm sure it's doing great now you still might want to get a check up from a cardioligist at your age. ( Even work-out Diva Susan Lucci almost died from a blockage!) Altogether though, I am impressed by your new commitment.

R79 -- since humans can get all the nutrition we need from plants, there was no need to eat animals. Remember our close primate relatives, chimps and apes, are herbivores. We come from herbivore stock, and we are meant to be herbivore, as our teeth, intestines, and stomach all reveal.

Chimps are omnivorous and have been known to eat other chimps monkeys, along with a steady diet of bugs. Their teeth and jaws developed primarily for a frugivorous diet, not generalized herbivore fare such as grains, but they hunt and eat other animals.

I agree with the posters who said that meat has been part of the human diet for a long time - perhaps 1 million years, although that is a blink of an eye in evolutionary terms. BUT. For most of that 1 million years, meat consumption was opportunistic. The lion killed the gazelle, but ate his fill and left some behind. The tiger killed a water buffalo, but the herd surrounded him and chased him away before he could eat more than a few bites. Catching and killing animals takes specialized tools, skills, and planning, and probably happened fairly rarely until the past 250,000 years or so. Even so, some have estimated that most people in prehistory ate the equivalent of one pound of meat a month. That's a chicken leg.

Most of our ancestors and close relatives in the primate family survived on leaves, roots, fruit and nuts with the very rare meat meal. (Fish if they leaved near water). Considering that our guts evolved to eat this way, it makes sense to drastically reduce our meat intake and increase our vegetable and fiber intake to try to mimic our ancestral diet. (Other than the starving-to-death-in-the-case-of-drought-or-flood part). There is a fair amount of evidence (40+ year studies on vegetarian groups like the Seventh Day Adventists) that show that that type of diet reduces many types of diseases - and contributes to longevity, at least several years.

The emotional part about not harming or hurting animals is subjective and applied unequally. I have a close friend who is a wheat and pea farmer. He says that dozens of deer are killed on his farm every year during harvest because they hide in the tall wheat or stands of peas and the combine driver cannot see them until the harvester is right on top of them. Repeat this story over hundreds and thousands of farms across the country and you can get some idea of the carnage of animals involved in growing completely vegetarian crops. Then, as other posters have mentioned, there are leather shoes and coats, down coats, and many other products made from animals that we're not even aware of on a conscious level. Carnivores, whether eagles, sharks, felines, wolves or bears do not spend a single second mourning the deaths of their prey. But every bit of the dead animal contributes to the cycle of life. There are numerous insect species that live only the remains of the dead and would perish if animal death were eliminated. But I'm in favor of reducing factory farming and deliberate cruelty to animals raised for food or other products during their lifetimes. It's one thing to ill them quickly and humanely at the end, but up to that point, I think they should be raised with a decent quality of life. Not confined in cages doused in the poop of other animals housed above them and force fed food mixed with antibiotics at every meal.

[quote]We come from herbivore stock, and we are meant to be herbivore, as our teeth, intestines, and stomach all reveal.

Our intestinal tracks are moderate in length and are comprised of only 1 stomach. We have both flat and canine teeth. We are ominivores, not shorter track carnivores with mostly sharp teeth, nor longer track herbivores with mostly flat teeth for grinding.

Eat whatever you want, but stop spouting unscientific nonsense.

I ate a vegan hotdog. It was truly disgusting. Never again.

I've never understood why eating a diet that minimizes suffering pisses off so many people on the internet.

I don't care who eats what, but nobody likes a preachy asshole, whether they be vegan or Paleo. Set an example by eating the way that works for you, and if anyone wants to know more, they'll ask.

I think preachy vegans are mostly an internet myth. As much as people bitch about them I've literally never seen one. This same discussion came up here years ago and I asked all my friends, and posted to every mailing list that I was on (which is something people still did back in the stoneage) and asked if anyone had met such a vegan. Out of all those hundreds of people, one person said they knew someone who was kind of like that.

Lucky you, r88. I know many nice vegans, but just as many sanctimonious ones. Same goes for Paleo and Crossfit enthusiasts. People who think they have the one right for everyone else, because it works for them, are common as dirt- diets are like religion to a certain percentage of the population.

R77 I mostly eat dairy products and chicken once in a while. Not a fan of beef nor fish.

I love 🐄. They are delicious 😋.

Humans are natural vegetarians. Anyone with a brain knows that.

I've never met a vegan who wasn't preachy. Even in non-nonsense New Zealand we get loads of them. I bet they hate bible bashers though.

I guess we live in different universes, R93.

They served only greasy boiled hot dogs at fucking WOODSTOCK. And everyone was grateful for them!

Humans are natural herbivores. Science proves it.

R84 is Donny Trump, once again patrolling DL for possible friends.

Does it though, r96?

I would love to see those Vegan protesters stand in front of a hungry lion with their signs.

A lot of the online commentary at the time was about how they went to a predominantly rich neighbourhood supermarket. It would have been far more interesting in a rougher area, trying to separate the masses from their barbeque meat of choice, but those protestors would never risk it..

Being a vegetarian is fine, but we aren't physiologically herbivores. Be a happy vegan omnivore and stop trying to deny basic science. This also applies to ignorant Paleos who insist we're carnivores. Eat what works for you, which is your ability as an OMNIVORE.

We are not herbivorous because our digestive system is too short. Human have not evolved any of the feature required to digest plant matter efficiently. We do not have a multi chamber stomach like ruminates have. We do not have an enlarged cecum like rabbits do.

In fact, the human guts as a percentage of body mass half that of a chimpanzee, (10% vs 20%). Also the composition of that gut is different, 50-60% are small intestine in human vs 20% in chimp. Human colon is reduced. 17-23% in human, vs 52-54% in chimp.

Humans seem to digest many fruits, seeds, and vegetables quite well. We just don't have the extra machinery to digest things high in cellulose, as herbivores easily can.

I don't know why people are obsessed with what others eat or don't eat. I'm a vegan and have been for many years. Unless you paid attention to what I eat you would not know I was a vegan. Comparing a human to a lion is a false equivalency R98 and not very bright analogy. There are certain requirements an animal needs that they can't get in a vegan diet. We as humans can mix food in order to get our daily requirements of vitamins, protein, etc. It was mentioned upthread and I mentioned it months ago, but there are top athletes that since becoming vegan are outperforming themselves. It's not a one size fits all when it comes to food. It really is amazing the people here complaining about vegans when they are a pompous ass talking about how they love meat. BTW, I have yet to meet a vegan as described here and I have yet to meet a meat eater that is intolerant as those here.

I’m not just talking about MEAT. Vegans don’t eat any animal products, including milk and eggs. Please tell me how early humans subsisted on plants only. They didn’t eat any grubs or insects or mollusks?

Somehow our early human ancestors had access to all these nutritious plants that sustained them enough to procreate?

Are you fucking serious R102? I didn't know that in order to procreate one needs to eat meat, foul and fish.

[quote] We do not have an enlarged cecum like rabbits do.

Cecum size queen!

R101, I used to work in a machine shop with a bunch of right-wingers. I couldn't care less what they ate, not my monkey, not my circus, but they cared a really weird amount about what I ate, to the point of coming up to me out of nowhere any acting all defensive about hunting and eating meat. You'd think a simple, "Dude, I don't care. Live your life however you want." would be enough, but it strangely wasn't. It was like they were personally offended by me being a vegetarian.

Sigh, no we didn't evolve as herbivores. That's the kind of thing that really makes those of us who studied human evolution just kind of roll our eyes. Even now, we cook a lot of our grains and vegetables in order to render them digestible.

R83, A million years isn't a blink of an eye as far as the evolution of humans go. Our particular subspecies of human is only a couple of hundred thousand years old at most. All indications are that early members of it were hunter-gatherers like modern nomadic groups. (Yay for coprolites.)

r106 We didn't evolve AS herbivores, but we evolved FROM ancestors who were largely plant eaters in behavior and diet and only opportunistically omniverous. In other words, we don't really have any evidence that the first thought a chimp has in the morning is how delicious a little monkey would be for breakfast, and only reluctantly swaps out a banana. It seems quite evident that plant foods are primary in their diets and the diets of most primates, and animal and insect food secondary - whereas, we know that a lion is never going to dream of eating a banana first thing in the morning. So most primates have the physiological capability of being omnivores, but their proportion of plant food to animal food is probably going to be something like 90/10. (Other omniverous animals like bears and dogs are going to have a very different ratio, and their guts are distinctly different than ours). The changes in our guts from other primates show that our homo sapien ancestors ate smaller, softer, richer (more nutrient-dense) foods than the big apes and I don't think we really know when that change began, but certainly by 250,000 years ago teeth and gut had changed significantly from our more distant ancestors. Much of that new diet could have been nutrient dense fruit, such as figs, some could have come with the invention of cooking food, but definitely small animals and insects were consumed on a fairly regular basis based upon coprolytic evidence. Some aspects of our evolution have progressed pretty quickly since 500,000 BC, but some have hardly changed. That's one of the reasons that we share 98.8% of our DNA with chimpanzees. I think that's why the longitudinal study of Seventh Day Adventists I referenced in an earlier post shows distinct health advantages to a plant diet.

Some humans live almost entirely upon flesh (Inuits for example), but the majority around the world in primitive cultures eat mostly plant food (ie ranging from 49% of their calories downward). . The iKung in African only eat meat amounting to about 10% of their diet.

[quote] After going vegan (15 years ago) and losing weight, my blood pressure went down to normal range.

This has nothing to do with veganism. You lost weight. You could do that with Lean Cuisine or modifying your diet on your own.

[quote] You bitches really think we humans were meant to eat animals? You all have convinced yourselves that it's fine to make yourselves feel better for being deplorables fucking up the planet and eating living beings.

In general, I don't eat them til they're dead.

R107, We're not descended from chimps. We share a common ancestor, but we're different in a variety of ways--including habitat--savannah, not jungle dwellers.

And we were eating animal protein way back--as in some of the earliest cave dwellers left behind oyster shells.

We're the most social of animals, able to work in large groups. And one of those things we did in large groups was hunt--we're not scavengers, we don't tolerate rotting food the way dogs can. The access to dense protein meant we got enough calories to support large brains. Both our hands and feet evolved so that we could use tools more efficiently and move upright. Which, again, made us better hunters. FWIW, there seem to have been some more vegetarian-oriented early hominids, but those subspecies died out.

As I said above, we have the luxury of modern agriculture so we can maximize caloric intake without hunting, but hunting and eating meat are key factors in how we evolved. Do we need the same percentage as a carnivore like a cat? No. But it's not nothing either--doing without takes some serious workarounds that wouldn't happen in a hunter-gatherer situation.

Um, R29? That statement is ridiculous. First of all, there have been no studies whatsoever to confirm your ignorant statement. However, here are some facts for you:

Vegans have a lower all cause mortality rate.

Well known vegans (well known because there are not a lot and these ppl were and are pioneers) are still alive well into their 80s without having to take meds (McDougall, Esselstyn, Campbell.) not to mention Ellsworth Wareham who went vegan in his late 40s and only recently died at 104 years old.

It is a FACT that animal "foods" are NOT good for the human body. Wake up, dude.

Yes, R85 because real hot dogs are NOT disgusting.

The parts of an animal that are not "marketable"..you know, lips, penis, balls, nails, eyelids..whatever....are used in hotdogs.

Lets not forget the rat parts.

YUM!

Vegan hot dogs are GROSS.

I have vegan friend on FB. Every single one of her posts is about animal cruelty. Every single one. Like four or five a day. I had to block her.

Conversely, a very good friend is also vegan. He never brings it up and love him dearly.

Hot dogs: Every part of the pig except the squeal

Vegans may live longer, but if you can't have bacon, is it really living?

R97 needs to know that the Science-based medicine site is about as bogus as it gets

SPOILER ALERT: We’re all going to die, no matter what we eat.

I’m hoping for a massive coronary in my sleep. Much better than cancer. A surprise bullet to the back of the head wouldn’t be too bad, either.

It sucks. So I’m gonna enjoy all things in moderation.

From NPR -- more proof that humans aren't designed to eat meat.

R118, Not proof, by any means. The writer basically wimps out midway on her claim and then switches to the usual pro-vegetarian stuff and away from the science. Doesn't touch the fact we have particular enzymes developed to digest animal proteins, nor the metabolic requirements of having unusually large brains for our size.

Also, we're not *designed* for anything, we evolved eating meat and our physiology reflects that. Leave the "designed" stuff for religion. The fact that the term is even used in the article is a strike against it.

“Also, we're not *designed* for anything, we evolved eating meat and our physiology reflects that. Leave the "designed" stuff for religion. The fact that the term is even used in the article is a strike against it.”

Agreed.

Lions aren’t just kings. Lions are also killers. They are built to be meat-eaters. They see a wounded animal and they see opportunity. They stalk, they pounce, and then with long, razor sharp teeth, they gnash into the back of that wounded animal’s neck until she dies. They salivate at the dead body and then dig into it like a feast. These are the actions of an animal who is meant to eat meat.

A lion has a physique perfectly suited to hunt and kill. He runs wildly fast so he can overtake another animal; he can jump on and stun an animal with speed and precision. He has dagger-like teeth and claws that rip open flesh; with no tools at all, he can tear apart muscle and bone. The lion’s jaws are powerful (they can crush bone), but they only move up and down in chomping-like way, which means they have to tear out chunks of flesh and swallow them whole.

A lion has no tenderness for the animal who is in front of him – he only sees food. Eyeballs, intestines, nothing is gross to him. He has extremely acidic digestive juices in his stomach which will kill any bacteria from the carcass he’s eating, and his short, smooth colon zips the waste quickly through his system as if it were a garbage chute.

Humans, on the other hand, see a wounded animal and feel a pang of sympathy. Most of us are repulsed to see a dead, bloodied animal. (We’re excluding sociopaths here.). We have soft fingernails, and molars that grind by moving side to side as well as up and down, so we can chew our fibrous (plant) food. We have weak stomach acid, meaning that raw, rotting meat could kill us. And we have a very long, windy, notched intestinal tract which allows for more time to break down fiber. Rotting meat could get stuck in the notches and rot while bacteria flourishes on the very slow way out to our bumhole.

Anthropologist Dr. Richard Leakey says it this way: “You can’t tear flesh by hand, you can’t tear hide by hand. Our anterior teeth are not suited for tearing flesh or hide. We don’t have large canine teeth, and we wouldn’t have been able to deal with food sources that require those large canines.”

So when someone says, “Humans are meant to eat meat!”, you can tell them that the exact opposite is true. Sure, we’re omnivores in that we can eat just about anything and survive, but ideally, our systems are best suited for plant-based food – things that are grown in the ground or on trees, and peacefully harvested.

[quote]Humans, on the other hand, see a wounded animal and feel a pang of sympathy. Most of us are repulsed to see a dead, bloodied animal.

First World rubbish, R121. Humans around the globe see a wounded animal and think food as well. Especially humans living in overcrowded areas or with haphazard access to food. A hungry human who doesn't know from where/when his next meal will arrive has no tenderness for animals. The human digestive system has adapted to local conditions vis-a-vis food availability, so that they can eat what would probably kill someone like you.

Best advise:

just eat a green vegetables salad.

Then kill yourself.

You went vegan AND you will never look back.

Yes R 117 but dying of cancer or having to have a triple bypass or take ,meds to stay alive after suffering disease is no way to live. Its not about dying its about living a life of quality vs a life of illness. Older vegans that eat Whole Foods live active lives w no meds vs fat oldies in a wheelchair or stents etc

Eating meat once in a while is fine - it's just that the human population is out of control. 4 billion humans (let's say roughly half of the world's population) eating meat - that's too much.

We're still growing and deforesting the planet to make room for agriculture (incl. soy foods). Deforestation leads to the extinction of wild animals.

Going Vegan is just a bandaid. Some kind of population growth disincentive is a better long-term solution.

[quote] SPOILER ALERT: We’re all going to die, no matter what we eat.

While that's true it's also about minimizing the suffering of others, including animals, while we're here.

People don’t eat meat once in awhile. Meat eaters eat it daily and feel as if its a necessity. Its not.

r123 Have we learned NOTHING from this thread?

Oh, dear.

This entire thread makes me want to eat a perfectly charred, juicy bacon cheeseburger...while wearing leather shoes.

The whole "humans aren't designed to eat meat" thing was brought up on a vegan thread a couple of weeks ago and debunked so I assume this is an attempt to try again?

You can go to all sorts of Peta articles and sketchy Medium blogs and find fake "proof" that we're really herbivores and Big Meat has been lying to us since 500,000 BC to trick us into eating animals, but the truth is that we are omnivores. You can choose to go vegetarian or vegan but don't lie and say we're not supposed to eat meat or not designed for it, that's like lying about climate change or vaccines. Stop acting like your wishes or feelings trump science. They don't.

[quote]the majority around the world in primitive cultures eat mostly plant food (ie ranging from 49% of their calories downward)

If it's 49% at most then it's not "mostly" at all. Mostly would mean over half of their calories were from plant food. No "primitive cultures" fall into that category by your own admission.

[quote]I think preachy vegans are mostly an internet myth. As much as people bitch about them I've literally never seen one.

You haven't seen this thread that you posted in?

Erectile dysfunction and vegan diet.

I don't understand how veganism minimizes suffering. Insects and animals are killed through pesticides and they get ground up by farm machinery. More animals are killed through pesticide run off. These animals are being killed for food. Is being poisoned by pesticides much different from factory farming? Unless you grow your own food you can't say your diet minimizes suffering.

The movie, "The Game Changers" will be offered on Netflix starting tomorrow. In the film, young athletes are given a device to put on their dick while they sleep. They are first given a meal with meat before bed. The next night they are fed a vegan meal. Afterward the doctor goes over the results with the three of them.

R132, obviously I meant seen as in "seen in person." Also, you can't tell me with a straight face that the vegans in this thread are worse than the vegan haters.

R134, it takes about 6 pounds of plant protein to produce one pound of animal protein, so meat eating causes a double-hit of suffering. Not only do the crops grown for animal consumption cause all the bad side effects you mention, but then the animals themselves suffer, many horribly, and are killed for their meat. So yes, I do say that not eating meat reduces suffering.

I made pork chops for dinner. And used bacon on the salad.

FUCK, they were good!

[quote] People don’t eat meat once in awhile. Meat eaters eat it daily and feel as if its a necessity. Its not.

Not everyone is Texan, ya know :). Some people eat fish twice a week and meet a few times a week. Not necessarily every day. Beef and lamb are not always cheap - so not everyone eats them daily. Many cultures avoid pork. Chicken is more popular.

[quote] it takes about 6 pounds of plant protein to produce one pound of animal protein, so meat eating causes a double-hit

Yes, but meat is also more satiating than animal protein. One can eat a whole can of chickpeas and still feel hungry soon. But a can of chicken or tuna is much more filling.

*than plant protein

R64 R129

Dear Oh, dear!

Advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice advice

Am I forgiven?

[quote]People don’t eat meat once in awhile. Meat eaters eat it daily and feel as if its a necessity. Its not.

Ridiculous assertion, especially without data to back it up.

R142 the data is clear. DYOR

I skipped most of the posts on this thread, which I thought, frankly, would be much funnier, which is why I came here in the first place, after reading OP's cringe-inducing post.

Proud to say I enjoy a nice steak, a hamburger, chicken, lobster, any kind of fish, scallops, clams, shrimp. Delicious. I also enjoy pairing these things with red wine or white. I also enjoy all kinds of vegetables, though it's hard to get really well prepared vegetables. And I love fruit and chocolate. I enjoy all those things, along with a nice martini or Manhattan. It's called enjoying life.

If you want to be vegetarian or vegan, go right ahead. But don't crow about it and don't act like you're stunningly superior in your morality. Or that you'll live longer.

And somehow sweaty, overweight, lonely R129 wonders why he has no friends.

R144 Data does suggest that vegans live longer.

Does data suggest that, r146? Because that doesn't hold true in my experience. I know 3 vegans, all of whom have had bouts with cancer. Not true, percentage-wise, with vegetarians or meat eaters I know. I'm not saying veganism causes cancer, I'm saying it doesn't necessarily make you live longer, considering everything else that isn't diet related that can kill you.

R147, Yes, it does. I don't claim it's proven because nutrition and health are complex, and cause and effect are really hard to nail down in nutritional studies.

Proof please, r149.

And by the way, living longer isn't always a good thing.

Data that suggests but can't be proven isn't terribly compelling.

Talk about crowing R144. Get off your fake superiority horse R144. Someone asked for advice to how to become a vegan and instead you crow about what meats, foul and fish you eat.

r151, OP writes "I definitely believe that eating meat is a vile and heartless thing to do and meat-eaters' ignorance and evilness are disturbing" and you don't call that acting morally superior? Fuck off.

Don't forget cringe inducing--crying over eating yogurt. How mentally unstable is that?

With the understanding several vegans have me blocked, I now choose to offer sincere advice:

Energy drinks and beer may be vegan, but high consumption of them are not recommended for people over the age of 40.

Have a knowledgeable dietitian help you plan a diet, so you get maximum nutrition. Don't assume vegan diets or fruitarian diets will prevent cancer: Steve Jobs was wealthy and brilliant, but his diet didn't save him. Octogenarian billionaire Warren Buffett on the other hand, drinks Coca-Cola and eats at Dairy Queen.

Sugar isn't friendly to the body.

The brain needs ample and healthful fats regularly. Omega-6 fats from industrial seed oils are not considered healthful fats. Hydrogenated fats are not considered healthful either.

Meet or exceed the recommended daily intake of Vitamin B12 from chlorella, nori and nutritional yeast.

OP try it on first. Do it two days a week, then increase to three days, etc.

Oh R147 your anecdotal reference is complete bullshit. Try reading a little. There are literally hundreds of meta studies that indicate vegan plant based consumption reduces all cause mortality esp food borne atherosclerosis. Your story is complete horse shit.

No, it isn't in fact, r156. And do calm down. Enjoy your veganism all you like, but don't assume you'll live longer. Oh, and fuck off.

R157 try picking up a book so that your ignorance does not emerge the victor. And grow up.

Whatever, r158. And do fuck off.

Satisfying a piggish urge to meat eat is gross and selfish. Killing beings so that you can shove carcass down your gullet into your fat belly is disgusting. The beautiful animals win in the end though.

I shall R159. When you mature. So you know. Lol.

r158 speaks for herself.

r160 says nothing at all.

Enjoy your veganism, hunties. And fuck off.

R162 educate yourself. And mature a lot.

Fuck off, r163.

I plan to tonight,R164. Sounds like you need a good one too!!

Nope, I'm doing just fine there, r165 (though there is a difference between fucking and fucking off).

R156 maybe for you. Fucking off is fun so thank you for the suggested quest. . Very appreciated.

With pleasure, r167.

Perfect R168.

Because people seem incapable of google searches here, I guess I will have to link several studies

Another

And another

Thanks R170. There are literally hundreds of mete analysis that distinctly reflect that meat and dairy are responsible for a higher rate of disease and all cause mortality. Meat eaters get pissed when told and call vegans assholes- after berating them and saying how crazy we vegans are. The fact is they know its bad but prefer to ignore it.

The chickens et al always do come home to roost.

Meta

Uh-huh. Well, I'll continue to enjoy my life, and I won't worry that eating a burger once a month will mean I'll only live to be 85 or 86 instead of 88 (though there's no guarantee of that, as we all know). But thanks for your concern. Kisses!

What I think we have learned from above is that someone's limited experience outweighs cohort and statistical evidence. "I once knew someone who had a bad reaction to a vaccination, therefore all vaccinations are bad and dangerous for all people". (That's an example from a different kind of anti-science topic, but it comes from the same impulse.)

As for the old “we are all gonna die”. Ya. But it’s about living not dying. Wanna live with stents or be wheeled onto ER for bypass? Wanna suffer with cancer? Jeez. Not to mention the absolute horror and cruelty to beautiful animals. Good god.

R175. Once a month? Right.

Any of those things can happen to vegetarians or vegans, r177, and you know it. And yeah, r178, about once a month for red meat. Or do you claim to know all about my eating habits, too? Must be that moral superiority that makes you that much attuned.

R179. It is far less for vegans, and studies have concluded so. Most heart disease is food borne, and a lot of cancers as well. And not from plants.

Yes, I know that you eat it more than once a month. If you only ate it once a month you would not be defensive.

Well, you're wrong, r180. Sorry if having a burger once a month won't kill me fast enough for you. But you're such an animal lover that I'm sure your love of them also extends to the people who eat them, right?

R181, we both know that you "enjoy" basically every meat and fish source known to man. You said so yourself. So, ya. Even if you eat a "burger" once a month (doubtful), you "enjoy" your meat. And, you will likely die of a heart attack.

Actually, eating fish is very good for you. I eat a lot of fish, though I do love lobster and scallops every now and then. As for how I will "likely" die, again, you're so knowledgeable. And why on earth would I be defensive when you're predicting, all the while gloating, at how I will die, and OP saying people who eat meat are "evil"?

I wouldn't be such an asshole as you to take a stab at how YOU will die. Because you certainly will. And the likelihood that it will be at age 95 in your sleep is quite slim.

Actually, R183, fish is NOT good for you. You clearly have read mainstream bullshit articles that are supported by the source about whom they are writing. Its not good for you. Do some research. Despite the BS that the keto ppl have started, any animal product that you eat is eventually going to make you sick. One way or another.

Yes, I will die too. But, I will enjoy a long life absent from food borne illnesses.

Oh, and R183? My great grandfather is still alive. So is my grandfather. So is my father. None have heart issues or any other issues. The only meds my GGF takes is blood pressure meds. Guess what they ALL have in common? NO MEAT. NO DAIRY. Oh, and my grandmother is still alive and runs marathons. No meds, and guess what she does not eat???

I was born into a vegan family and we ALL enjoy good health. I am proud to say I NEVER ate an animal product. It is unfathomable to me that anyone would defend it. Its not only a horror to animals, but to your health.

Fish is fine. In fact, someone I know was advised to go on a Mediterranean diet by her doctor for blood pressure issues, etc. Fish, vegetables. She's doing quite well on it, and losing weight.

And good for you, r184. I'd rather be dead than be around judgmental douches like you.

r185--my grandmother just died a year ago. She was 102. She ate white bread, chicken, tuna fish, chocolate...

R186, you are judgmental as well. And you are trying to figure out a way around scientific proof.

R187, good for her. Rare, for sure.

I reject the idea that vegans will outlive everyone else who aren't, that's all. I'm sorry that's so hard for you to accept.

Yeah, it's rare for anyone to live to be 102, r189.

R190, your rejection does not make it untrue. Studies belie that rejection. Many, many studies.

Nor does it make it any kind of a fact that you will outlive me, r192. Not that it's a contest--for me, anyway.

R193, but very likely indeed.

Arrogance, moral superiority, and a Nostradamus-like ability to see the future--all that from not eating animals. How wonderful for you. No, it's not very likely, r194, because of course you have no idea. Consider this, though: what does it mean to live long and have such unattractive qualities? I'm glad the vegetarians I know aren't so self-righteous.

R195 not arrogant, just know what I am talking about. Try research. Ever see a heart IRL? Well, I have. I am a med student. I have seen a meat eaters heart (and dairy) vs. a non meat eaters heart. The latter had ZERO athero. The former was replete with it (latter died in car accident former of guess what?) So, I know wtf I am talking about. You can name call and get angry all day. But, facts are facts. Keep eating your meat. You will die early. And, of a heart attack, more than likely.

Get her--r196 is a med student!

I regularly see my doctor--a real doctor, not a med student. No cholesterol, no heart issues, no high blood pressure. I exercise and maintain a good weight.

Die early, will I? Fuck off, junior.

R197, sure. I told you...I plan to! Thank you!!

You've already fucked off, as far as I'm concerned. You just don't seem to know how to act on it.

R199, ok. That is clearly an interloper on the stage of witticism. Have a great day, and I hope you too can fuck off!

R134 It minimizes suffering because if you eat animals you still have to grow the plants that will feed them anyway, with the consequences you mentioned, and also kill the animals themselves. It's also more efficient because you'll need more resources to produce enough meat to feed someone that to feed someone directly with plant based food. And you can minimize the environmental impact by choosing to buy organic, local food or just growing some stuff by yourself.

High intakes of heme iron have been shown to be associated with cancer and cardiovascular disease. Nitrates and nitrites are added to meat during the curing process. Some investigators believe that nitrates from vegetable sources may have potential benefits, particularly for cardiovascular health, but nitrate/nitrite from processed meat has been associated with increased risks of different cancers.

A separate cohort study conducted by the Mayo Clinic last year also found similar results and caused the authors to recommend a plant-based diet:

And, yet, if you look at the diets of people who have lived past 100, they're not vegans. Okinawans, for example, eat a lot of vegetables, very little processed food and small amounts of fish and meat. The oldest person in the world, now 117, eats fresh vegetables, fruit, mutton and fish.

Not sure why some people think that any one who eats meat eats it daily. I don't and, per person, beef consumption is down in the United States. I dislike ground beef, so meat's relatively expensive. There was really only a fairly brief period where Americans ate meat every day if you don't count tossing in a bit of salt pork into the baked beans.

Basically, it's the same thing as always--keep your weight reasonable, exercise, eat a bunch of vegetables, small amounts of animal protein and cut down on the salt, sugar, hydrogenated fats and heavily processed foods. Lots of different countries manage this. The life expectancy of Monaco is the highest in the world, followed by Japan. Neither is a vegetarian culture--Monaco's basically French, which means dairy. Europe, in general, though, treats its dairy cows better than in the United States.

Moderation really seems to scare people though--not sure why.

Someone who's finally reasonable AND has stats. Thanks, r203.

Okinawans eat primarily vegetables and soy. VERY little meat. The vegetables and soy serve to protect the heart against disease. The amount of meat they eat is extremely low .

There are studies after studies to prove how bad meat is for consumption.

The Japanese eat a lot of fish. Second longest-living people on the planet.

veganism is dumb. Depriving yourself is too extreme. You'll be miserable. Just be a happy vegitarian and enjoy life while maintaining a healthy diet.

The studies on longevity in Japan focus mainly on the islands where ppl keep a 90 percent vegetarian diet. The city dwellers that consume animals do not enjoy the same longevity.

And Japan is still the second longest living. How about Monaco, r208?

In Monaco they eat a lot of vegetables as well. They eat FAR less than we do of all food, but again....they do not treat meat as a main meal. They have ten years on us, this is the medi. diet which is NOT meat based. Again the vegetables when consumed as a large part of the meal will serve to PROTECT against the harm that the meat brings. This too has been studies.

Yet they eat meat. And dairy.

Anyway, moderation (a hamburger once a month, for instance) is just fine. And of course plenty of vegetables!

Sure, moderation in regard to smoking serves the same purpose. But why do it at all. It is a health risk.

R205, But they do eat it and they eat fish. It's not an all or nothing diet. I expect they eat enough to get the nutrients and extra calories that animal protein provides and little enough to not have the same effects on heart health that a diet heavy in red meat has.

In other words, moderation. Also, if possible, eat local--better for the planet if your food doesn't have to travel several thousand miles. Plant a garden if you can. If a bit of bacon makes kale more edible for you that's not a terrible thing.

There are people for whom a vegetarian/vegan diet really doesn't work--pregnant women have really high nutrient needs--vegan diets aren't recommended for them. People prone to anemia are another group. People with various digestive issues can't always handle breaking down all that cellulose.

It varies among individuals and in individuals. The diet you need at 15 is different than the diet you need at 80.

Again--moderation, common sense.

Yes, R213 and again..they eat PRIMARILY 90 percent...vegetables and soy, which serve to protect them from the harm that the animal would cause. Here in this country, you can see the effect when vegetables DO NOT serve to protect because the main meal is MEAT with a tiny, if any, amount of plants.

By the way, R213, many pregnant women do not eat animal products. And, anemia affects more meat eaters than vegans.

I eat plenty of vegetables, and the "harm" you speak of is rendered so negligible when meat is eaten in modest amounts and in moderation that your argument is pointless. I'm not talking, either, about how too many Americans eat--sugar, processed foods, etc.

And the smoking analogy isn't the same (nor do I smoke).

And yes, not eating meat every day--so it isn't the main meal.

The harm rendered by meat is now something that should be measured? How about NOT eating it and NOT risking that harm caused by meat? The elephant in the room here (aside from the vast amount of studies supporting a vegan diet) is the HARM that we are doing to the planet AND to other beings. That is really what is the most abhorrent. Eat meat all day, but don't pretend its not harmful. It is a horror on every level, but more so for the planet and for beautiful animals.

..and, its not the harm that I speak of...its the actual harm.

Yes, it is something to be measured in human beings who enjoy eating fish or steak every now and then. How about NOT preaching what people should enjoy? And who eats meat all day?

I am not preaching. I am debating fallacy.

And, most Americans eat meat all day long. In the context of morning, noon and night.

r222, I don't see that. I don't do that, anyway.

Get her @ r221!

R223, you don't see it? You dont know ppl that eat eggs and bacon for breakfast, a turkey sandwich for lunch and steak for dinner? Meat is a staple in this country. You don't see it?

No, r225, be amazed, but I live in NYC, and I don't see that. I know people do that, but it isn't everywhere and it isn't among people I know. Try to wrap your mind around that.

R226, I go to school in NYC and I see it daily. NO idea where you are looking. Screamers does good business but nothing like meaters.

Well, r227, I know actors, health fitness people, other kinds of artists. Other professionals--doctors, architects, people in arts admin. All the people I know eat sensibly, exercise, are thin or fit. They don't eat meat three times or even every day.

R228, my point is that MOST AMERICANS eat meat all day long. How you do not see that is beyond me.

I said I know people do--but there are actually people who know better, and just about everyone I know knows better.

R230 that is fine. However, MOST Americans eat it all day long. Which is why we suffer from disease.

And my point is if you choose to eat meat moderately and not every day, it's your business and it won't kill you.

Who the fuck would want to live an extra 10 years!!! This shit life??!! Just gimme a steak smothered in gravy and leave me the fuck alone!!! It's the only joy in my life!

There's a lot to be said for not trying to live to be 95 or 100.

R215, Yes, of course, anemia's more common in meat eaters because anyone prone to anemia is told to stay away from a vegan diet. And, yes, there are pregnant vegans, but it's not advised. Some women do okay, but I've personally known more than one woman who switched from being vegetarian during pregnancy.

R231, There's a big difference between veganism and eating "meat all day long"--I fall in between the two, so do lots of people. If you're concerned about the planet, though, rest assured, the primary meat eaten by Americans is chicken. Depending where you are, a diet that includes chicken and eggs can have a lower carbon footprint than a vegan one--chickens are also helpful if you keep an organic garden--they eat bugs. In turn, a truly free-range chicken turns out tastier eggs.

I'm pretty amused by the vegans here that are pretending that the diet of the Okinawans and Monagasque are really vegetarian while, at the same time, they are upset by the mere thought of yogurt being consumed.

By the way, we eat a lot of meat, but you know who eats more? The Spaniards. But they eat a Mediterranean diet and Spain's considered one of the healthiest countries in the world with a low rate of obesity.

Rates of obesity correlate pretty well with life expectancy. The states with the lowest rates of obesity are Colorado, Hawaii and California, with Hawaii and Colorado being the two states with the greatest life expectancy. (I suspect their gun control laws give them that extra edge over Colorado.)

Hawaii and California aren't on the bottom of meat eaters--California's actually quite high. However, both states lead in eating leafy greens. Hawaiians eat a lot of fish and California cuisine is basically a variant of the mediterranean diet.

In other words, lots of fresh vegetables, olive oil and moderate consumption of animal protein--preferably the lower fat kind. It's really the same thing over and over. Throw in some whole grains of your choice and your good to go.

The all or nothing approach isn't necessary and has that all-American puritanical streak to it.

Meat eaters that continue to support it with fallacy - keep eating. Kill yourselves slowly and support the slaughter of animals and damage our planet. Most of you will die soon or be outnumbered in the future anyway. As a Z gen I look forward to it.

Its amazing how meaters use the debunked soy study to denigrate soy and yet the HUNDREDS of meta studies proving how bad meat consumption is can be ignored or disbelieved. All because meat dangers are an inconvenient truth.

r236 will be very disappointed to see meat eaters continue to survive, as moderate meat consumption doesn't in fact kill people. But isn't it charming how she's stated her true desire: "Most of you will die soon or be outnumbered in the future anyway. As a Z gen I look forward to it." What a cunt--and proof that fanatical vegans are just as insane and unyielding as any Trumper.

"Be outnumbered"--what, in the future, r236, no one will be allowed to eat meat? LMFAO!

In the future plant based options will be more prominent on the food spectrum. Meat eating will seem as preposterous as cigarette smoking. Which of course in its day was considered healthy.

By the way moderate meater- you may want to read a little research about that moderate meat eating and how it fairs poorly on your cholesterol level.

Cuckoo Z Gen has spoken! Because of course they can confidently predict the future ("In the future...") and just who will die.

Not a matter of clairvoyance. Trending factors portray this to be true.

"Trending factors." Cuckoo Z Gen.

You think Burger King et al are selling plant based products in order to satisfy a hunger for exclusivity? They have only the best team to study predictors. Plant based options are the future. And they will outsell meat to such a degree that meat will see its way to the same fate as tobacco.

Tobacco is still quite legal. And leave it to a cuckoo Z gen to think living until you're 95 is a wonderful idea. Because a cuckoo Z gen has no idea what life brings and can see only one thing--their ideology.

So your 102 year old aunt had a shitty life until what age?

Grandmother not aunt

Your grandmothers shitty life started at what age? She lived to 102.

She certainly had a very rough time of it up from her mid-90s until she died--partial to complete blindness, other ailments related to extreme old age, depression that she was living so long for no real reason. Things you don't even think about because you have no fucking clue. You think not eating meat and living long guarantees you happiness until the end? Talk about clueless.

Sounds like she suffered from ailments long before her death. Interesting lol.

Eating a healthy plant based diet is protection from risk. It is the difference between sleeping with your front door wide open vs locking it. Doesn’t mean you will be a victim of crime either way but the risk factor is certainly a culprit in the event that you exercise the former practice.

No, she didn't have other ailments one before her death, so you're wrong, and what's with LOL when talking about a woman in old age? Shows your "sympathy" for animals doesn't extend to people.

*"No, she didn't have other ailments before her death"

And you seem to think you won't have any ailments afflicting you, particularly if you make it to your 90s? Boy, are you dumb.

Ellsworth Wareham was mowing his lawn at 102.

Esselstyn and Campbell and other vegans are in their 80s and live very active lives sans medications of any kind.

Oh. And so does my great grandfather my grandfather grandmother father and mother. None ever consumed animal products. My cousin is a well known body builder who never ate meat and kicks ass.

Meat is an unnecessary consumption that does far more harm on every level than any good.

Yes I do. My great grandfather has NEVER been in the hospital and has zero ailments and takes zero meds. He is 98.

Good, then go on your idiot assumptions based on knowing a handful of people. By the way, what do you think it costs to live until you're 100? Most people can't afford it.

Eaten

R257 that is such a strange argument. An appeal to probability based on fuzzy reasoning.

Listen dude- you live in NYC. So do I. Why don’t we meet next week at screamers? We can debate this through. I will buy the pizza. I will be wearing an NYU t shirt. And I sorta look like Chance Crawford- at least I have been told. We can meet next Wed at screamers?

I can meet anytime after noon on Wed. Just tell me what time and what you will be wearing. Lunch on me. You will like the vegan pizza. Promise.

Keep this image in mind. Think of how your arteries are slowly being unclogged by going vegan.

Yes R262. Game changers on Netflix says it all.

Most important: Take it slow, phase it in. Find delicious vegan versions of your favorite foods (in the grocery, at vegan restaurants, via recipes you can make at home).

Don't beat yourself up if you "slip" sometimes. It's ok: just keep bringing yourself back to the path.

Make sure you calculate your macros (nutritional needs in the form of carbs, fat, and protein). A meal plan by a service like Muscle For Life (I guess it's now "Legion Athletics") can guarantee you stick to them. You tell them your goals and your physical stats (the latter to calculate your basal rate), and the foods you're up for eating regularly. It's $79 and if you stick to the meal plan, it virtually guarantees success.

If your protein needs are high (working out to build muscle, therefore probably need 1 gram per pound of body weight), protein shakes are probably needed. You can make them into smoothies with frozen fruit. Vega Sport protein is good for that.

Subscribe to VegNews: colorful, great motivation, lots of food ideas.

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Check out LiveKindly OP. New ideas, good support.

Check out LiveKindly OP. New ideas, good support.

Game Changers has an interesting bit about meat consumption and the hardness and frequency of erections on young male athletes.

OP, why put so much pressure on yourself? Ease into it. Go vegetarian for a while then cut dairy in parts like switching to plant based milk, cutting out cheese, etc.

Also, go into it with the mindset that you will try it out and see if you like the diet as opposed to never going back.

Stay away from the fake shit that is nothing more than junk food. Eat real food.

I was going to post that I didn't see the value in living close to 100 years, but if one has dementia, which seems likely given a lifelong diet eschewing healthful fats in preference to glucose, one doesn't have a firm grip on reality. All that climate change, large cities washed away, fiery forests and fields affecting agriculture, animals going extinct from habitat destruction (is that preferable to being eaten to sustain a fellow human? Vegans say yes)... enjoy that glorious future. If your Alzheimer's mind projects a fresh and shredded you in a bathhouse with young studs, while some underpaid careworker clips your toenails and checks your adult undergarment as you fantasize in your wheelchair or hospital bed, you won't mind so much.

Also, it's been posted and overlooked a few times in this thread, but ingestion of pesticide-laden plants and deregulated processed foods do not prevent cancer. With 19 billion capillaries in our bodies, on average, virtually 100% of us have microscopic cancers by the time we’re 70 years old, more than 40% of us by age 40. There’s a good chance you have pinhead-size cancers in your body right now. These “cancers without disease” aren’t typically a problem, as they can’t grow larger than 0.5 mm without a blood supply.

But if cancer cells get constant blood and glucose? That’s when you can end up dead.

Pollutants in the air and water can cause cumulative damage. So can emulsifiers, additives, preservatives, industrial oils and hydrogenated fats. The posters who structure their arguments on the axis of fresh, local, unprocessed and nutrient-dense post in unassailable (at least sane and informed posters don't assail) logic and truth.

R270, I don't know that OP's main motivation is health.

OP, if you love pizza and other 'processed" foods, there are plenty of vegan options. Don't give up your favorite foods because others are vegan for "optimal health" reasons.

Vegan doesn't have to be "earth bowls with green goddess dressing." Have an Impossible burger with gooey cheese and and a vegan strawberry milkshake if you want.

If you're on the West Coast (or Boston, try Veggie Grill. If you're in CA, try Monty's Good Burger, too (ignore the many Instagramming hipsters - it's wroth it).

OP, if you're into fitness and weights, check out Nimai Delgado's videos. He'a on Instagram, too.

What about living food?

And, yet, for all this talk of vegan longevity, the vegans here all ignore the inconvenient fact that the people living longest are eating meat along with their veggies. If meat's that deadly, then people who eat it shouldn't be living to 117.

Then there's this woman--the longest living of them all--smoked, drank, downed red meat and sugar. She did eat a lot of olive oil, though.

Follow Bosh.tv on Youtube and you will find lots of vegan recipes.

R274, she's an outlier. And who knows how much longer she would have lived were she a vegan with a balanced diet.

That said, some of us go vegan for reasons other than longevity. You night not accept that. It's probably all just virtue signaling to you. That's ok.

Have a big steak this weekend. Cook it in butter. Have some Malbec with it and a good cigar afterwards. Keep it up. Enjoy.

Even your dick will appreciate a vegan diet.

How much LONGER she would have lived, r276? She was 117! She might have made it to 120 if only she's been a vegan!

I've met plenty of you people who claim there is no point in living if you can't enjoy food.

The second you get hit with a heart attack, you're the first ones to reach for a kale salad.

Just make sure you have saved plenty of $$$$$$$$$$ to live past 90, because it's going to cost you, especially if you live in the U.S. Most people don't have enough savings to live past 85 and they're dependent on Social Security alone. So see where that gets you, vegans. You better be rich.

Cheaper than dog food.

I'm not even talking about the cost of food. I'm talking about the expense of living, period. And it's pretty ludicrous to think a diet of vegetables is going to spare one from any health issues in their 80s, 90s. Health care in the U.S. ain't cheap, as everyone knows.

Actually, she lived to 122 and, independently, to the age of 109.

Eat more vegetables and fruit for your health, but don't jump to the conclusion that you can never have any sort of animal protein again. Less isn't the same as none.

It's so much easier now than it used to be in the 20th century. Just make sure you get plenty of B12 or you will spaz out. And don't be tempted to fill up on masses of potato based snacks or peanuts or you'll pie quickly.

I don't honesty know what a healthy diet is and I don't think one diet works for everyone. I am 99% vegan and eat very little junk food, the diet works well for me. My weight is low, my numbers are all good and I'm not on any medication at age 62.

For me, it's not primarily about living a long time, it's being healthy and able to be active with minimal pain that is important.

r283 Or, she might have been a fake. Some Russian gerontologists believe so and have published a paper about it. They think she died and her daughter assumed her identity in order to avoid hefty inheritance taxes. Still, even if that's true, she still lived until 99.

In the UK, farmers are furious over Tesco's sweet ad about a kid who doesn't want to eat animals. Intense.

Sure, there are some people that abuse their bodies, and live til the 80s and longer. Thing is, they are very RARE. There are way too many studies that point to the fact that animals are not healthy consumption. And, aside from that, the industry itself is killing the planet. Not to mention MURDERING animals. So, yeah...go ahead and eat it, but stop defending it.

"... there are some people that abuse their bodies, and live til the 80s and longer. Thing is, they are very RARE."

Define abuse, r288. Don't bother--I already know, you define it as eating meat. But people eat meat and it isn't rare at all for people who eat meat to live into their 80s and longer. Abuse of one's body involves substances and mental illness that goes untreated, and not exercising, and eating too much, as in meat.

As for the meat industry killing the planet, it's specifically climate change that's killing the planet.

And as for eating meat, no one is defending it; it's having to defending oneself from the charge that one is evil for eating meat.

R289, like I said, lets meet at Screamers and have the debate! Lunch on me!!! what do you say?

Why would I go out of my way to physically meet you to have what you call a debate, and I call a difference in what we choose to eat? You have no more ability or right to ask me to meet you than you would have a right to say, "Meet me at my church so I can show you why you should be a member of it."

By the way, Ive eaten at Screamers. It's fine and no more than that. Will you go to a burger joint with me if I go to a vegan place with you?

R291, sure. I will meet anyplace to debate the topic. Name the place.

You'll eat a burger, not merely meet at a burger joint? You mentioned lunch at a vegan place.

I will not eat a burger, R293, but I will meet you at a burger joint. I have never eaten an animal product in my life.

Well, as I said, I will not go out of my way to meet a total stranger anywhere to have a pointless discussion, because it wouldn't be a debate. There's nothing to debate, so I'll spare us both a waste of time and decline your generous offer.

lol, R295.