My Straight Coworker Hates His Family

say " I like the woods too!"

I see this look on the face of so many suburban dads carrying shit through airports and stores for their nasty wives.

Ask to see his big, fat axe.

[quote]I see this look on the face of so many suburban dads carrying shit through airports and stores for their nasty wives.

Elections have consequences.

Three kids will mean a large amount of child support. Unless the man is highly paid, there won't be enough left over to rent his own apartment, should he decide to leave.

Yup. He's trapped right where he is. I WOULD NEVER BE STRAIGHT.

No sympathy. It's obvious that's what happens when you marry and have kids. If you do it, you're an idiot and you get what you deserve.

if he was hot I would support him after he moved out and separated from wife.

Well, whatever you do, don’t kill them and bury them at your work site

Chris Watts? Are you following this thread? What would you do?

R5 Child support is usually only 20% or less of the person’s income and it also means he doesn’t have to spend another cent on the kids if he doesn’t want to. He probably spends more on them now living with them. He can also get his payments adjusted if he leaves his job or can’t afford it.

The noncustodial parent usually gets a better life after the divorce, especially if they are the one with a decent income.

When you produce kids (whether you're a man or a woman), you're responsible for them until they become adults. That's only fair to the kids and to society (which would have to support them if their parents didn't) -- that's a good argument in favor of legal contraception and abortion, so that both sexes can practice birth control and avoid parenthood if they're not prepared to take care of the kids.

That's pretty much all wrong, R10. Child support is a state matter. Different formulae are found in different states. One thing that is true is that the more kids, the higher the rate that must be paid. The higher the income, the more the assessment as these things are controlled by percent of income.

The non-custodial parent often ends up being the father. Where the father is a high earner, he will be fine. But if he is not a high earner, he won't be able to pay for his own one bedroom apartment. And without that, his kids won't see much of him as there will be no weekend visits. And if he gets sick, or loses a job, the child support obligation rolls right along. If he falls behind, he may never get out from under it.

Unless they have a lot of money, when parents with kids separate, there is a world of pain to spread around to everyone.

The world of the heterosexual is a sick and boring life.

The parent without primary custody seems to have it the worst. They usually have the kids every other weekend. The kids don't want to leave their friends and all their stuff, and have to spend the entire weekend together. I know several families like this, and see them all the time, usually out for breakfast on Saturdays and Sundays. Very little conversation, a lot of time looking at phones. Plus they are now paying to maintain two residences, which usually means less disposable income for both parents. That's not even taking new boyfriends/girlfriends/husbands/wives/step children into consideration. It's miserable.

Years ago, my boss was thinking of leaving his wife. They had three small children. I painted a picture of how his life would be, stressed the freedom he would give up and the financial consequences. I like to think it was part of the reason he and his wife got into counseling and worked things out.

I feel so bad for him. I hate hearing people are miserable.

I knew a guy like that. Four daughters. His wife and daughters ordered him about like he was their slave. After he died of lung cancer it turned out he had gambled away all his savings so the widow had to get a job. Retail. Tiffany, but still.

My coworker hates his wife. I don't get why they're together. He's such a cool, and good looking guy. She's an overweight and ugly bitch. Oh, yeah, he's an illegal immigrant and she's a US citizen. He's doing it for the papers. I forgot about that angle lol.

I've heard this one from straight guys in the office for about 30 years. He's not going to leave. He enjoys his pity party. Bitching about his wife is the most interesting thing he has to talk about.

I've noticed a lot of unhappy hetero marriages seem to produce 3 kids. It's like they thought spitting out one more sprog would save the day but it usually just makes things more dysfunctional. And the older kids usually get fucked over the most if the family isn't well off.

It is a horrible life. I see it in all my brothers - except one who seems to have a good relationship with his wife but they are hardcore Christians.

One of many reasons I’m grateful to be gay. May be hard as a kid but it’s a much better life as an adult. Why gay men feel the need to have kids with a partner is beyond comprehension to me. It’s a trap I thought only straight men got suckered into. Though gay divorces tend to be more equal since there usually isn’t a “stay at home” parent who earns nothing but can live off the other even if they get a divorce. Marriage is a horrible thing in my opinion.

Best method for sharing is if the parents move locations on the weekends. Rent a studio that the parents switch out of. That way the kids aren't disrupted and miserable and the house is maintained.

That does make the most sense r21. Most people are all about themselves and what they want, less so the kids.

Very few people actually have to get married and have kids.

Exactly r23. I wish that we would move away from this expectation. I feel like second wave feminism was more interested in breaking this kind of thing down. I don't know what happened.

OP, I'm convinced that about 98% of the "helicopter parents" who make a huge show of catering to their kids' every whim secretly feel that way.

R19 is right. He has two older and an 11 year old.

His eldest just graduated college and hasn’t looked for a job. He said she made her own lettuce wrap at dinner and he asked for one and she got an attitude and said no. He was devastated after having paid for her college she wouldn’t even share and the wife said nothing.

He doesn’t make a lot of money and his car just died. He’s Indian and said he respected his parents so much more.

He needs to man up, throw her out or pack his shit and get out.

He's either a man or a rug. Choose one.

WAI!T R26 are you OP and the guy is Indian, as in "arranged marriage" Indian? this changes the whole conversation.

WHAT?.....On the Maury! R28!

Well first, I would disable my neighbor’s surveillance cameras R9

[quote]Do your coworkers/friends say this stuff?

They don't flat-out say they hate their spouse and kids, but they bitch about them so much that it's obvious they are not happy in the situation they're in. If there's one thing I've realized, it's that there are many married straight people who are not happy at all with the choices they've made in life.

R24 Something has definitely reverted in our culture. Now everything is centered on the suburban picket fence mentality again. But now there's a twist, this lifestyle is being pushed by some media outlets towards gays as well. We would have a happier and healthier culture if we accepted that not everyone wants kids. There's no need to push people towards it. A certain segment of our population will always be breeders.

Always thought having kids would suck. But these people chose this lifestyle. They don't have to get married or have kids if they don't want to. They can get a vasectomy.

my husband craves attention and exclusivity... he says that to every gay guy who has a little time to waste... and y'all fall for it ! whether he loves me and the kids or not, he's screwed!

Can someone explain to me the compulsion to breed or crap out kids? I always hear about this so called drive among straights but I wonder how much of it is just narcissism or caving to societies expectations. And why do people have more than one or two?

R35 Straights can't stand to be different. They want to "fit in," regardless of how miserable "fitting in" makes them. So they do whatever it seems like everyone else is doing so that they don't seem like the outcast. Now that I think about it, most straight people never seem to get out of that high-school mindset of desperately wanting to be part of the "in" crowd.

I used to be an academic and the women I worked with would bemoan having kids. Many of them said they didn't want kids but went along with it because their husbands/long term partners desperately wanted them. I think straight guys want children but then don't realise the implications of having them. Perhaps women know what the impact will be and are the more informed (therefore more reluctant). So glad it's not something I have any interest in or, due to my sexuality, suffer any pressure about.

[quote]Can someone explain to me the compulsion to breed

People want da cum.

[quote]His eldest just graduated college and hasn’t looked for a job. He said she made her own lettuce wrap at dinner and he asked for one and she got an attitude and said no. He was devastated after having paid for her college she wouldn’t even share and the wife said nothing.

She didn't become an asshole in a vacuum.

And who says "I paid for your college, you owe me a lettuce wrap" anyway?

I'm [bold]GLAD[/bold] I had an abortion!

You just know his wife's name is Debbie.

Give him my number.

What R19 said. Just say "Sorry to hear that" and move on.

I think R36 has posted the most spot on comment in this thread. He just described almost every straight person I know, especially the men.

Straight family life sounds awful, based on my (male) work wife's stories. I always finish a conversation with him thinking I got the way better deal.

I know several women who wheb drunk had admitted that getting married and having children is the biggest mistake of their lives. They particularly regret having children.

No one can admit this, of course. It is the ultimate taboo.

I mean, it's certainly a stressful life, one I'm not sure I could tolerate. Straight people like to complain about how tough they have it. Some genuinely hate being parents, but for others it's bonding with other parents, or even a form of boasting (because family life has prestige). Or, if you're like my father, you lie about how much you did for your family and how they don't appreciate it (when he did absolutely nothing and had to be taken to court for child support when he left).

As for why people have families, if you've ever had a bond with either of your parents, or were able to count on your siblings, that's why. When it works out, being part of a family can be the best experience you can have. It can be terrible, of course, but for many people, it's a risk worth taking.

Most straight divorced people go on to second marriages and a surprising (to me) number of men have more children. It’s not like the vast majority of them divorce and live a carefree single existence forevermore.

Maybe it’s just the person that makes them miserable? I don’t know.

[quote] I know several women who wheb drunk had admitted that getting married and having children is the biggest mistake of their lives. They particularly regret having children. No one can admit this, of course. It is the ultimate taboo.

That was hard on my mother -- not being able to vent that she regretted having kids and resented us. And it didn't help that my dad appeared to be a paragon and no one believed her or sympathized if she criticized him. Needless to say, she was not a happy woman and was probably relieved to die fairly young.

It's a typical scenario. You are dating, falling in love. Sex is amazing. The touch of each other flesh intoxicating. Connected and committed now and you step into marriage. Two things happen. The princess and Prince charming begin showing their flaws, and in daily life these realities become irritating. Then you add in the first kid. Mom is the center of attention, along with the child and the husband becomes the hunter gatherer, and retreats into the background. The wife's focus and attention becomes attached to the child, and poof, the husband/wife relationship is not primary. Family life would be so much better if the center focus is keeping the adults in the relationship the primary directive. The kids would prosper better when parents relationship is kept alive.

[quote]Very few people actually have to get married and have kids.

Drop the “and have kids” part and I’ll agree with you. But the legal protections and benefits of marriage should not be discounted.

I would guess that there is more pressure than in previous eras to have a particularly generic, conformist family lifestyle. It's extremely lucrative and society revolves around exploiting that dynamic. I think people feel trapped by that, regardless of their relation to their family.

...what r52?

There used to be FAR more pressure to get married and have kids. In the recent era you have more people not getting married and not having kids. It's easier to make that choice than ever, try being someone in the 50s who didn't want to get married and have kids.

I don't pick friends who choose to raise a family, as I think it's a stupid idea to begin with.

R12 is correct about R10. That is dangerously inaccurate information. In NYS, child support is 25% of GROSS income for 2 kids. So if you make 200k a year, you are paying over $4k a month. In other states it is much, much less. Some states don't have guidelines for above a certain income, so it becomes a real wildcard. Also, some men get screwed over when it comes to college if they have a divorce agreement that says they have to pay 100% and then the kids turn out to be pretty stupid and lazy, but still want to go to a ridiculously priced university. Or they are great kids, but after college they want to get a masters in social work at Harvard. Nothing against social workers, I would be very happy if one of my kids became a social worker and loved it. But I sure as shit don't want to pay $400k to qualify them for that career. But most settlements include something like 50% of the going rate at an in-state university (which also varies widely across states).

I think divorce is less financially devastating for families who live in lower cost of living areas or have extended family around and flexible living arrangements (or are really rich) It is the cost of two households that makes it tough. I think the NYC area is particularly bad for families (divorced or not) because long hours and commutes make kids just something you pay for M-F.

A lot of working dad / stay at home mom marriages are bad for the man when they have different child raising perspectives. Mom is the one doing that work, so dad doesn't get a say. That is why disliking a potential MIL is a HUGE RED FLAG. And it is a good sign if the in-laws all get along.

Marriage / kids is a diversification play. They may end up dragging you down or they may pull you up. Worse case, I may retire to a shitty condo in FL, but my kids will still visit me at least once a year. Unless they are really busy that year. I'm only half joking, but that is truly worse case. Without kids, I would just have a nicer condo. Also, my kids aren't assholes.

Children should be buried and not heard.

What r44 said.

Thank You, Mom for telling me when I was a child that human beings aren't required to have children. She also added, "And if mistakes are made, they can be corrected." She meant abortion.

Mom, you rocked!

I would compare it to the 1950s, R55, or perhaps the Victorian era in England. These were exceptional points in history and not the norm. I simply mean that people feel a comparable amount of societal pressure to engage in a very narrow and specific lifestyle. In other eras, while not as enlightened as today in other ways, there would be allowances made for those who chose not to for whatever reason. I'm not saying there is any punishment, social or otherwise, but people are pressured to marry, have families, and live in the suburbs, and gay marriage has tended to make that pressure more widespread. The 1950s is the best comparison to make, I think, because people were expected to demonstrate the superiority of the western lifestyle and consumerism, a scenario that seems to be repeating itself today. I repeat that I'm not saying that bygone eras were more liberal. People today have more options in theory, but face a huge amount of pressure to place themselves in a circumscribed and conformist situation.

^^ I meant to say, gay marriage has extended that pressure to a wider population rather than easing it.

I’ll out myself as a woman on DL for this question (gasp).

I work in a male-dominated job, and hearing the way 85% of my straight male coworkers talk about their wives and families has made me very reluctant to ever get married. These are men you’d make small talk with and think “he’s nice.” But they drink at work happy hours and talk about their lives like they’re trapped in Hell and their wives are Satan. I find it pathetic. Who put a gun to these guys’ heads and forced them to get married?

Their libidos did it. They are horny straight guys who need regular access to La Vag. Women tightly control access to those things.

If they were gay, their lives would be easier, at least as it regards ready access to sex.

Don't forget the overwhelming straight male ego! I've actually heard more than one post work happy hour breeder make a remark to the effect that "I gotta get my DNA out there!" as a reason for fathering children.

Your mom sounds Greta, R57. Society needs more like her.

Great* your mom sounds great*, not like an obsessive NYC-based French piano teacher.

I don't get the pity here. Nobody forced them into it. They decided to get married to a person of their choosing, and then decided to have kids. They got what they wanted, they need to deal with the consequences. No need to whine about it.

I know the women who read these threads aren't going to like hearing this, but I understand that some men are pressured into having kids by their wives when they aren't nearly so enthusiastic about it.

R66 Why don't they work it out at the beginning of the relationship? I'm not going out with anyone who wants to have/adopt kids. Just because they're straight doesn't mean having kids is mandatory. They just go with the flow to be like everybody else and then are upset because they end up with something they didn't want.

From the way I understand it, when the couples first get together the women are okay with not having kids at the time; they honestly feel that it's not that important, it's not a big issue, it's very vague maybe someday type thing. And then, when they're in their mid-30s, all of a sudden it becomes a priority for them that it really wasn't as much before.

R66, I don't think your comment is going to bother anyone. Of course some men are pressured into it (as are some women). By their partners, parents, friends, siblings, but mostly by their partners. Also, in a heterosexual relationship the decision-making power with regards to reproduction is very asymmetric.

None of that matters. The only thing that matters is that the kid has gotta be fed and clothed. The goddamned grifting straight people already have free public schools.

Did it ever occur to the coworker that his wife and kids may be happier without him, as well?

Also, he has the kids he raised. If he doesn't like them, it's his own fault for not being more involved in how they were raised and with what values.

Finally, the coworker sounds lazy. He'd rather get out, but is too lazy to get out. He'd rather not do any work to fix the existing situation or do anything to improve it. He's not a child and isn't without agency, yet whines to a relative stranger.

Also, isn't "my wife and kids don't understand me" the cliche come on by someone looking to hookup?

Ok, I can see that happening R66.

I swear I'd have a vasectomy if I were a young, sexually active heterosexual male. Then, in my 30s or 40s, if I were foolish enough to want children, I'd have it reversed.

No man, no matter how wealthy, powerful, and no matter how much he tells a woman he doesn't want to create a pregnancy, is a match for a woman who is determined to become pregnant.

We'll lie to you. We'll tell you we're on birth control. We'll tell you can come inside us because we "can't get pregnant now." ALL LIES

Men are fools to believe that shit. So best to take it off the table all together and fix things yourself.

Vasectomies are not always reversible and the time between vasectomy and reversal attempt may affect the likelihood of success. So men should also freeze sperm. I would seriously encourage my kids to do this except (1) It isn't my business and (2) I think it could cause future partners of theirs to view me with hostility. I think it says something about the straight male psyche that more men don't do this, but I don't know what.

Just pop that wife in the poop chute. Problem solved.

R71 yes it is a come on. As if I’m supposed to be turned on by my balding coworker bitching about his wife being a nag. The women I know who have fallen for that usually have very damaged self-esteem.

When it comes to that, they should just break up, R73. Better than to live a life of misery.

[R71] I was about to say the same thing! They always say the wife is crazy, too.

People have families because it’s your clan. I was an only child without any relatives nearby, and it was lonely. Some big families are fun and supportive. I know someone with lots of sisters and BIL and nieces/nephews who says it’s like being at a party all the time. You are never alone on a Saturday night. Of course this is contingent on the family being good people that you like.

r50, I also think thats one so many young adults nowadays are so neurotic, have personality issues, and emotional instability. Moms have forgotten they still need to be wives; they are overwhelming kids with attention. Also kids are included in too many adult leisure activities.

In the past ten years I have yet to hear one single straight woman say that she’s dying to get married and have kids. It’s women who pick up the slack when kids come into the picture.

If you want kids, whether you’re a man or a woman, great and good for you, but don’t blame your spouse for how much work they are. Kids demand a lot of time, energy and patience. If you can’t do it, don’t do it.

Some people have kids to anchor themselves into some kind of purpose in life. She want a 'mini-me' someone to take care of to feel special or fullfil the dreams, they didn't love themselves enough to follow.

Mothers, working or not, still do the majority of childrearing and housework. Men simply don't know how to, or want to, in general.

Children are not just a product of the parents, but in society at large. Children pick up on the feeling of to he time, from adults, media, school etc. I would even say we have mental health pandemic. There are too many people with the ability but not the wherewithal to have children.

Also, reproduction is a fundamental aspect to species as a whole. Mother Nature tricks us by making it fun.

[quote]From the way I understand it, when the couples first get together the women are okay with not having kids at the time; they honestly feel that it's not that important, it's not a big issue, it's very vague maybe someday type thing. And then, when they're in their mid-30s, all of a sudden it becomes a priority for them that it really wasn't as much before.

The reverse is very common as well. The woman is not particularly interested in kids, but when she hits 38 the guy knocks up a 25-year-old. There is a very strong instinct for straight men to spread their DNA, as someone said upthread, particularly as middle age continues. It's the same reason a lot of deadbeat dads with nearly adult kids who opted out of childrearing decide to havea second family, declaring "this time I'm going to do it right".

“Men simply don't know how to, or want to, in general.”

It’s that they don’t want to. Straight men can figure out lots of complicated things, but claim not to be able to remember to do basic daily tasks. It’s not as though gay men and women have magical abilities that straight men don’t. And some women coddle them at first because it’s fun to play house, but when kids come along you have real shit to do and no more time for carrying another adult’s responsibilities. It’s why if you talked to divorced moms they sometimes say it’s actually easier to raise kids alone.

I had a brother who married a bitch of a woman because he was 40 and wanted kids. He got the kids - who are the sole purpose of his life - but is stuck with a vile, mean, “stay at home” wife who he can’t divorce without ruining everyone’s lives including the kids. Seems like a miserable life to me - but at least he did it intentionally and didn’t get scammed into it.

I thank God I’m gay and don’t have kids. The life of a straight male parent is miserable.

Did your brother’s wife know he was only marrying her for the kids? Seems like she’s not the bitch in this situation...

The divorce laws in some states are so archaic, that they reward the non-working parent. It’s like welfare for wealthy people. The less the (usually) SAHM has worked, the more alimony she gets. I know someone whose wife hasn’t worked since her early twenties, the children are all grown, but she gets half his salary even though she has a large inheritance of her own. In our state you get alimony for life, so unless you get remarried or your ex dies, you get paid. The ex isn’t allowed to get a lesser paying job or retire, so is basically a slave. In my friends case, the ex wife is too ugly and weird to ever get remarried, so he’s stuck paying her forever. However, though divorce is expensive, its still worth it if you want to have some happiness before you die.

When I was a teen in the 70s I had a paper route Of the 90 houses I delivered to, 5 were owned by couples that didn’t have kids - but were around the same age as most of the couples that did. I collected money weekly and had the route all through HS, so I got fairly friendly with many of my customers. I noticed pretty quickly that four of those childless couples seemed much happier in general than most of the others, and a few of the dads were definitely miserable. Long before I realized I was gay I had decided I didn’t ever want kids.

Here's a radical thought - do you think there should be some sort of appreciation education for kids about parenting in school? There are some lame attempts in high school where you have to carry around an egg or a pound of flour all day to show you what it's like to have a kid.

But kids don't think about what parenting is required because they don't experience it. Hell, most people don't appreciate their parents until they are in their 20's and become adults themselves.

I think there can be some lessons on this and role-playing that could be helpful. Now, of course, for those neglectful parents that don't do the things they are role-playing, that could cause some complaints.

And I count myself as one of these ingrates when I was younger. I could have used some of this forced on me.

R53 I'm not r52 but he's not entirely wrong. It's not as extreme as it was in the fifties but I noticed a shift in the 2000s vs the eighties and nineties. Twenty years ago, There seemed to be way more couples, even straight ones, who were full on child free yuppies and our culture seemed a bit more accepting of that. During the 2000s I started to see a creepy baby fetish become widespread in our culture. I first noticed it in gossip rags. They used to run articles that mainly focused on Who was secretly gay, who was fucking who, and which stars were addicts. Then all of a sudden, all they cared about were "baby bumps" (ick).

We forgot all we learned from the 60s and 70s about freedom and liberation. Rethuglicans and Moral Majority shifted the focus back to family as the ultimate ideal. There really should,be training in how exhausting, stressful and life-consuming having kids is. Now it’s gone even further with this stupid 16 and Pregnant crap. Like being a single mom is a goal. Depo-Provera for all girls until 25. And free abortion. After that, if you’re stupid enough to have kids, it’s on you - no sympathy, welfare or alimony.

I hope he doesn’t tell his kids.

Corollary, I would never disrespect a Mom or Dad in front of their minor kids, if I could help it.

“Men simply don't know how to, or want to, in general.”

A lot of women don't know how to either. I am only in my fifties, but I babysat very young children as a teen. I knew how to take care of babies. I had a nanny who was only 18, but she had a 10 year-old sister she had helped raise. She knew how to take care of babies. Every kid is different, so I can't judge any individual situation, but there are WAY too many parents complaining about sleep deprivation - even when their kids are toddlers! Most of those parents are just incompetent, and it makes it hard on them. You can't really learn infant care from a book

"Then you add in the first kid. Mom is the center of attention, along with the child and the husband becomes the hunter gatherer, and retreats into the background. The wife's focus and attention becomes attached to the child, and poof, the husband/wife relationship is not primary."

That's not the only reason that kids put such a huge strain on relationships - if you add a baby to the relationship suddenly the amount of daily work to do has doubled, if you add more kids it triples, if you add a house in the suburbs it quadruples! Straight never seem to see it coming or realize what's going on when it hits, because they've been raised to think of that shit as normal, but that's when couples start to resent each other for not doing their share or for putting childcare ahead of regular sex. And from what I've seen, straight men STILL think of the extra work as optional, something they don't really have to do and should be praised to the skies for "helping" with.

And that's without mentioning the financial stresses you get with kids and a mortgage! Which is also something they never seem to be coming. I can't imagine how miserable it is to be a breeding heterosexual in the modern world.

If you wonder why I come to the site, look no farther than this thread. There are few places online with discussions like this-- and trashy gossip and all the other things DL does.

[R94] True. You can talk things out without some crazies keyboard screaming about family sanctity.

The other hardship with becoming parents is that a lot of kids have disabilities of one kind or another which puts a ton of strain, financially and emotionally, on everyone. I know a few people with autistic kids, and they are a black hole.

Child birth is the biggest crap shoot of them all. Push hard, but you never know what the hell is going to slide out. And if there is any problem, your life is affected by it forever.

No way. I'll stick to slot machines, thank you.

Aren't the best things in life the hardest? Who said raising a family was easy?

If you think spending your life and prioritizing raising a kid over all else is one of the “best things”, feel free. But I think the point is it’s not. In fact, for a lot of people it’s a miserable drag on their life that turns out another human being who is just going to do the cycle of misery over again. Many try to justify it after the fact - but in cold logic, it’s not the “best thing” for most straight men.

All this complaining that straight men do is bullshit. They secretly love it, They actually like being pussy whipped and they would be completely lost without the family they claim to hate.

Well - let's face it - American work culture doesn't exactly make it easy. When I see my cousin in Sweden raising his two kids and how easy it is for them, I was like - sure, I'd fucking have a couple if we had this kind of support.

[quote] All this complaining that straight men do is bullshit. They secretly love it

It's not just straight men though. I've heard plenty of straight women bitching so much about their kids and their husband too that I don't understand why the fuck they bothered with any of it.

It's too bad we don't live in a society where people can be honest about things like this (regretting getting married and/or having kids). If people spoke about this more openly, maybe it would keep other people from falling for the trap.

[quote] That is dangerously inaccurate information

What a drama queen R55 is. Dangerous? really?

trust me, no lives depend on this inaccuracy

A few women I know have told me that they love their kids, but if they could do it all over again, they wouldn't have had children

Well - it's the in-between years that suck. A lot of them are thankful to having children once they are in their 20's and once the grandkids come along.

I don't think most people regret having children on their deathbed.

Agree R104. On the deathbed and old age, kids can be a good thing. But not ruining my life until 60 to possibly appreciate it when I’m old and dying (assuming the kids aren’t total screw ups, don’t hate me and actually want to deal with me). I’ll take a full and happy life from 25-60 over a slight enhancement in meaning on my deathbed,

R104, exactly. I think some comments here are confusing stressful lives with unhappy lives and confusing ordinary griping about the spouse (which happens with gay couples, too!) with wanting out of the marriage.

Having children is stressful, especially these days. The straight people I know are almost all married with children, and they seem pretty happy. Stressed out sometimes, and worried sometimes in ways that I have never had to be, but not unhappy. Unlike many of the commenters here, I don’t pretend to know their inner lives, so I can’t say if they’re truly, deeply happy, but every survey I’ve ever seen has shown that married people have higher levels of happiness and satisfaction in life than single people.

Also, if people didn’t have children, none of us would be here and the species would die out in one generation.

Sorry, but the smell of sour grapes on this thread is a bit overpowering.

Those surveys are conducted in a society that prioritizes marriage/family and therefore provides status, R106. There’s a built-in bias. I agree with you that being stressed out for a good 2 decades does not equal an unhappy or unfulfilled life. Single or childless people also experience w gefeat deal of stress; only the guarantee is that it’s not stress over raising a child. But I don’t smell sour grapes here. I only see people who are looked down upon or pitied (and yes every one of us has had that experience at least once) d by society for not having children observing marriage and children in a realistic way that is not necessarily allowed to be talked about in heteronormative society.

I would have more sympathy for straight co-workers if they hadn't been so tiresome when I was in my 20s and 30s, always asking me when I was going to have a kid. If they'd been a little less defensive when I said it wasn't for me (already a rewording of the "hell no" in my head). In short, if parents weren't so fucking self-congratulatory, maybe they could get advice instead of each setting up a blog to dispense parental advice, I'd give two shits about their sudden realization that parenting is hard enough without a job and just looks like a fucking hardship if you're juggling both work and family life. I appreciate how hard it is, but you don't have to do it. Remember when you were all, "Do you think you're just too selfish to want kids?"

This is beside the point of the thread but I can't help it.

Perhaps I see my parents through rose-colored, idealistic glasses, but, I don't think my parents ever would discuss the other to a 3rd party unless it was in praise.

Oh horrors. Let the species die out R106, if you are representative.

I'm straight and I find it hard to have sympathy for straight people like your co-worker, OP. Miserable straight people do say stuff like that. It's self pity that they chose frustrating lives.

In 20 years only some people will want to be parents. I'll guess the number will be similar to the number of people who elect to make their own soap or almond milk.

No pity for straight men. No one forces them to get married. Vasectomies are readily available. Stay single or *snip*, bro. Stop whining, we have our own problems.

Having children is a cultural phenomenon. Who wants them. Who raised them. How many. How they are raised. Most all of it is cultural. The folks at your country club may be paring down to just the two, but across town there ore other families with six to eight kids tearing up the place.

Nothing about child bearing and rearing is cut in stone.

Our culture pushes the family narrative because, in order to make our current Wall Street-driven economy work, you need a robust population of wage slaves. A culture of carefree single people who only need to support themselves might actually rise up against the insane working conditions of an Amazon warehouse or other corporate sweatshop. People with fewer obligations can’t be controlled as easily as the person with three kids who needs to provide them with food, shelter, and medical insurance.

That’s the real reasons they’re ringing alarm bells about the so-called ”population decline.” That and propping up our near-bankrupt social security system.

I'd rather make my own laudry detergent than have kids. In fact, I do (or my partner does - I do the laundry). Having kids today sounds very irresponsible. What kind of a future will be available to them? I guess people are oblivious, don't care or believe in fairytales. In fact, it seems most believe in fairytales, regardless of what they actually profess to believe in. That, plus a touch of nihilism and passivity.

[quote] Child support is usually only 20% or less of the person’s income and it also means he doesn’t have to spend another cent on the kids if he doesn’t want to. He probably spends more on them now living with them. He can also get his payments adjusted if he leaves his job or can’t afford it.

Hahahhahahahhahaha. No, not even close. It’s amazing some of the shit you morons pull out of your asses.

I always had a thing for men in their late 30s and 40s. Mostly married men, of course. They were so beautiful to me - handsome, masculine, mature. And almost to the very last man, they all had that mask of sadness over their situations, their marriages.

I never felt guilty about playing with them, because in addition to them blowing off steam sexually (and fuck, there was a lot of that to unleash) I was a friendly ear that would actually listen to them. None of these guys ever had a buddy to talk to about it, and if they did, that buddy also was in the same boat.

People without families are more easily controlled, rather than less.

[quote]My Straight Coworker Hates His Family

Unfortunately not uncommon among straight men. I am always in awe of how different men act when women are not around, and every time I ask myself how can women not see it ???

So many straight men resent their families, their kids, especially their wives that it baffles me what they even start a family in the first place. No wonder the majority of straight marriages head to divorce court.

Thanks, r110; r106 truly is insufferable.

[quote] but every survey I’ve ever seen has shown that married people have higher levels of happiness and satisfaction in life than single people.

Only the straight men. Single, childless women are happier than women married with children.

How so, R119?

See r115.

[quote]but every survey I’ve ever seen has shown that married people have higher levels of happiness and satisfaction in life than single people.

Church ladies will always say they are happier when in reality they just mean they feel financially secure.

The older straight married people I know that deliberately chose not to have kids have always seemed genuinely happy IMO, and way happier than many of the ones who did have kids.

[quote] [R24] Something has definitely reverted in our culture. Now everything is centered on the suburban picket fence mentality again. But now there's a twist, this lifestyle is being pushed by some media outlets towards gays as well. We would have a happier and healthier culture if we accepted that not everyone wants kids. There's no need to push people towards it. A certain segment of our population will always be breeders.

Yep, the more we rush to embrace heteronormative aspirations and values the more likely some old sociopathic queen is going to bury the bodies of his husbear and their adopted Chinese children in a hole out back by the septic tank. Setting back gay rights by 60 years.

You're still a jezebel, r118.

They would be much happier with a little back door action in their lives

r89

[quote][R53] I'm not [R52] but he's not entirely wrong. It's not as extreme as it was in the fifties but I noticed a shift in the 2000s vs the eighties and nineties. Twenty years ago, There seemed to be way more couples, even straight ones, who were full on child free yuppies and our culture seemed a bit more accepting of that. During the 2000s I started to see a creepy baby fetish become widespread in our culture. I first noticed it in gossip rags. They used to run articles that mainly focused on Who was secretly gay, who was fucking who, and which stars were addicts. Then all of a sudden, all they cared about were "baby bumps" (ick).

I think it was an internet thing. Message boards for mothers became a place for them gather to and advertisers and gossip rags knew what they wanted to read. Then there was the backlash to 1990s third wave feminism which throughout the 2000s you heard people like Sarah Michelle Gellar and Beyonce say they weren't feminists because they aren't man haters. With the fundie Bush in the White House wrought a new conservatism and post-9/11 there was a switch to all things cosy - vintage clothes, knitting, vinyl records, mac and cheese, home cooking, domesticity.

Then with Web 2.0 there was even more user generated home-making stuff of every kind.

The pressure to have a child (regardless of whether I had a companion or a reliable income) was intense between my late 20s and my mid-to-late-thirties. Because, like many DLers, I was 38 but looked younger. From co-workers, mostly.

R120 I think women can’t see it most of the time because it’s very painful to realize how high a percentage of straight men has contempt for women generally and the women in their lives in particular. It almost makes you feel crazy to realize it.

R106 Is the survival of our species really an argument? We're overpopulated. If anything, not reproducing would be the best thing to do. Also, everything comes to an end someday, human beings included. I honestly don't give a fuck if it happens sooner or later.

More mommy blogs, recipes, household hacks, and mommy drinks memes meant more stories about women but only straight married or divorced straight women. That's what happened. Fewer weirdos, and art is self-care you sneak in time for instead of your full-time focus. I like that there's more diversity in publications but wish it weren't mostly boring parenting stuff. No wonder the parents (not just men though) are bitching at work. All we need are for more parents to disclose how much they regret their choices. Because many do. Not that they don't love their kids but there seem to be parents who are more surprised than I am that their lives are so much harder now with kids.

Hear fucking hear R133.

R119 I would love to hear the fantastical details of that Frau algorithm!

Yes, I am controlled by my desire to travel, go to the opera & meet people.

R136, you came up with a new DL term:

Fraulgorithm!

as my mother used to say: “It’s better to be single and wish you were married than be married and wish you were single”

^^ Ain't that the truth!

R89, you expressed the sense of some of what I was trying to say (R52). I was a bit incoherent.

Quora is full of parents, men and women, who deeply regret having children.

Oh really? Isn't that where you must use your real name (or something that sounds like a real name)?

What I hear from my male straight friends is that, after say age 10, the kids don't interact with the fathers that much and don't appreciate them like they do their mothers.

Many women are very territorial about 'their domain' - as much as they say they want an equal partner, they really don't. They want the man to pay for things and support them, but women rule the households and the kids. Men just feel like they are boarders who happen to be paying the lionshare of the rent.

Obviously its a sweeping generalization, but many men feel left out of the equation. Yes, the roles have shifted some - but not really. Nobody looks at a stay-at-home Dad and says to him - we appreciate you because it is the hardest job.

There are still double standards.

Yeah men and women. Not all of them some seem genuinely happy with their marriage and family but most are not. They all seem to stay in their current situations out of fear, financial constraints or a sense of obligation.

When I was 22, there was no way I wanted a spouse and children. Especially children. I wanted the world and I forged out on my own to get as much of it as I could. Along the way, I had some terrific adventures. I don't regret being free when I was a young man. That freedom opened so many doors.

At 62, I profoundly miss the presence of a family around me. Parents, aunts, uncles, my only sibling... they're all gone. Some adult spawn and even the occasional visit by a grandchild would be welcome. I look at those who, when they were young, made decisions that were very different than mine and I must acknowledge that their choices are paying some valuable dividends.

Only one thing is certain. We can't have it all. Every choice inevitably leaves behind it the choices we did not make. Not being surrounded by family on Christmas has its down side, but it has its up side, too. (As I am reminded every holiday season when my friends' families seem to go on the attack.)

The trick, and it is quite a trick to pull off, seems to be about finding the contentment you can find in the circumstances you have. Though Dorothy Gale said it better at the end of "The Wizard of Oz" than I just did.

Agree R145 - the main benefit of having kids comes after about 60. But I still don’t regret choosing an independent life and not having kids for my own selfish needs. I’ve tried to maintain relationships with all my nephews and nieces - but am under no delusion that they would take care of me in old age. As a loner, I dream of not having to deal with family gatherings at the holidays. But I know that might change at some point. All in all, I’m glad I didn’t sacrifice my life for kids. Especially when I see how often they are a heart-wrenching disappointment.

The very, very occasional visits from grandchildren!

Meh. At least 6 of my co-workers have cut their parents or their spouse's parents off dead for over a decade. They don't give them a text on their birthday, a visit in the nursing home over Christmas holidays, nothing.

It's an unwise decision to procreate based on expecting a yearly visit in your twilight years.

Yeah R148 is the reality offset to R145. You are as likely to be deeply disappointed in how kids turn out and/or ignored. To expect more is a risky gamble - of your prime living years. In the hope that the bad mood years will be a little less so in your final days.

Now that I'm getting older, yes, I see that old age without children, grandchildren, or any younger relatives is going to be tough.

But many of my breeding age peers are realizing that their children aren't going to be there for them in their old age, that I'm hardly going to be alone in that particular boat. Their kids are estranged, or on drugs, or are a financial drain, or have in-law issues that have ruined relationships, or mentally ill, or are just plain useless. Having kids in today's world is a huge strain, a drain on your resources, and there's absolutely no guarantee of any payoff. Breeding was never in the picture for me, for a million reasons on top of the gay thing, so at least I've been able to get used to the idea of a lonely old age. It's coming as quite a nasty shock, for the breeding straights.

There are no guarantees, but remarkably often you get back what you give.

My mother cared for her parents when they were aged, up to the point that it would have significantly diminished her own quality of life to do more.

When Mom grew old and needed help, I did the same. I could have done more - and I feel guilty about that - but the fact is, I learned by example.

Thus, if you have children but ignore your own parents and treat them as a burden, if you nurse grudges against them and complain angrily about their slights to you, even though you have grown into a successful adult, then you can expect the same from your children when you grow old.

These are the dilemmas that we childless folks have escaped, at the cost of having no one to look after us.

Btw, who are these people who have cut off various relatives that everyone claims they know? I don't know a single person who has totally cut off his or her parents. I know some who have distant or cool relationships with parents, or who talk to their siblings but rarely, but none who have totally cut them off. I certainly wouldn't care to be friends with anyone so unforgiving, bitter or careless of personal relationships.

I hate his family also. Maybe he will follow in my loverboy Chris Watt’s footsteps. 🤞

Happiest straight guy Ive ever known is 58,single and childless. When he was in his early 20s he had a pregnancy scare with some one night stand and he got a vasectomy right after. Hes good looking,well off,nice house,all the toys he wants and never lacks for female company. The second they start trying to put the screws on him for marriage,out they go.Whats funny is he tells each and every one he will never get married yet they all still try eventually. Hes even had a few over the years swear he knocked them up even though they know he got clipped! He was with one lady for 12 years,then when she pulled the old "marry me or Im gone" he let her go ! Every other guy we worked with envied him mightily,and every single one said they wished they'd have done the same. Ive only known a few men over the years who truly seemed to enjoy their kids.Ive also known only a few men who didnt cheat either.

I think it is - or was - different for men. None of the good stuff - like the sainthood that Mother’s get just for giving birth. Father have to pay the bills but don’t get as much out of it. Then the wife and kids can take off and he still has to pay the bills and sacrifice his weekends to “entertaining” kids. And in old age, men seem more independent than woman. And they don’t live as long and can pay for themselves more often. I get it for women biologically, financially and culturally - but like Fran Leibovitz, I am baffled why gay men would go out of their way to have kids. Straight men have to get suckered into it.- gay men don’t.

[quote]Btw, who are these people who have cut off various relatives that everyone claims they know? I don't know a single person who has totally cut off his or her parents. I know some who have distant or cool relationships with parents, or who talk to their siblings but rarely, but none who have totally cut them off. I certainly wouldn't care to be friends with anyone so unforgiving, bitter or careless of personal relationships.

Because r252 they can see you are a self-satisfied cunt and don’t tell you anything truthful about themselves.

I had dinner with my partner's parents last night. It seems family, marriage, are a big deal to some people. Just as village gossip, etc. It's a way to define themselves - I don't know, it seems rather primitive to me. I would prefer not to.

I told this story before, but I worked with a guy in his 50s who had a full time job and a part time job. He was supporting his wife who refused to work and both his kids who were in university. He got the second job because his daughter wanted a new car--not a new used car--a brand new Jeep.

One night we were working and he didn't feel well so I told him to go lie down and I'd finish the work myself.

When I went to check if he was ok I found him on the break room floor. He wouldn't wake up and didn't have a pulse. I called an ambulance but it didn't matter he was already dead.

At the funeral his son was pissed that his father didn't leave any money behind for him to finish school and he'd have to get a job to pay his own tuition.

I would hate to be a straight guy with kids and a cunt wife.

As we all know the frauen view their pussies as an ATM

When you get married and have children, you enter a club with privileges that extend to the work world. Not all members of this club will lord over their status to single friends. However, in subtle and not subtle ways, may in the club do.

I have a couple of close female friends in what appear to be in happy marriages. One of them makes more money than the husband. However, the husband does not clean bathrooms and toilets, does not do laundry. This woman is primarily responsible for child transportation. I don't think this is a unique situation.

For many men, when they marry a woman, they gain club status, gain a house cleaner and a nanny. Not true for all men, I know.

OP here.

This afternoon, on a Saturday, my phone rang and I saw it was my coworker. He asked if he could talk to me about something personal and I said yes and he started crying. We’re not even that close, we’ve never hung out outside of work and don’t even work in the same office, but I wasn’t going to tell him no or be mean to him since he was in such distress.

Today was his birthday and nobody in his family wished him a happy birthday. He was calling from a parking lot at Jack-in-the-Box getting food because his wife only cooks for the kids and not him.

Tomorrow, they are going to Europe for his nephew’s wedding and he spent $10,000 on the tickets and doesn’t want to cancel.

The reason he called me is because he wants to ask the CEO of our company (my boss) if he can move to our office over 1,000 miles away. He wants to sell his house and get away from his family, but does want to make sure his kids get medical insurance. He said his wife works part time and doesn’t make any money and doesn’t have insurance through work.

I reiterated to him that he needs to tell them how horrible they make him feel, but he said he’s just a coward. He said even his sister calls him a coward. I told him I would speak with someone in upper management and see what they say about him moving to one of our new office. I don’t know that they even need a full-time on-site person in that new state. He said if that doesn’t work out he’s moving to the Philippines.

"He was calling from a parking lot at Jack-in-the-Box getting food because his wife only cooks for the kids and not him. "

I bet if you asked him, he'd say he has absolutely no idea why his wife is so cold to him. And if you asked the wife, she could spend several months complaining about him.

I'm afraid this is an incredibly common pattern among straight people. The husband spends years being thoughtless to the wife, expecting her to cook and clean and birth and bring up children for him, and listen to him and forgive him and cater to his sexual needs, while he does little in return but stick around. When straight women get fed up with this, the husband has NO clue why the wife is angry with him. He thought everything was fine the way it was.

If R160 is referring to the OP's Indian guy, this goes x10. Indian guys are quite unabashed about expecting the wives to work, clean, pop out and raise children, and be a servant to their parents-in-law. And to be grateful for the lifestyle.

What I've observed with family and friends is very different from the picture most people on this thread have painted. While there have been a few divorced couples and I know one henpecked husband and one long-suffering wife who seem to stay married through inertia, most seem to be happy in their marriages. And I can't name one person I know with kids who regrets having them, including some where that lack of regret is a complete mystery to me. Sure there are times the parenting responsibilities are stressful and they complain about specific things, but the unanimous opinion seems to be it's worth the downsides.

[quote] And I can't name one person I know with kids who regrets having them

No shit Sherlock. That's because they have IQs of over 50 and realise that no one with any common sense would ever admit to creating a child you later realise you were better off not having.

Why the hell do straight guys get married? Because everyone else is doing it? I'd say that is the main reason. It's not like they can't get women to date or sleep with them without marrying them. It just seems like the average straight guy HATES all that ball & chain domesticity stuff....AND with fucking shitty kids!

They need to think that shit out first.

r162, I thought my sister had a good marriage. One day, she called me saying she was getting a divorce and her husband had been a dick for the past 5 years...which was never shown around us. You never know what is going on behind closed doors.

R151, you seem very innocent.. i hope for you that it's not a mental disability that limits your cognitive abilities...

I have a female friend in her early 60s that admitted to me over a glass of wine that she regrets having her children. Her daughter is a bipolar alcoholic mess and her son is a convicted felon who is in and out of incarceration. She’s a genuinely decent person, she just won the reverse-lottery in terms of children. I’m 50 and I’ve never had anyone besides her openly admit this.....although I’m sure MANY people feel this way.

Good for him for making a move, even if he is a pathetic coward.

I volunteer to “comfort” your straight friend when he gets lonely.

He’s old, fat, and Indian.

R170 - ok I take my offer back.