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SONDHEIM: Clever or Clunky

I admit some of Sondheim's lyrics are very clever.

[quote]From Follies: Then you career from career to career

But then some are just clunky.

[quote]From Company: A toast to that invincible bunch. The dinosaur surviving the crunch.

Was Sondheim the master of the 20th Century musical or was everyone seduced by hype?

by Anonymousreply 272June 1, 2019 4:42 AM

The master.

by Anonymousreply 1April 23, 2019 7:10 PM

Master--Sweeney Todd is an out and out masterpiece. Much of his work does suffer from "Brilliant first act and quickly diminishing second act" syndrome. It's like he give up after channelling his genius into the first act.

by Anonymousreply 2April 23, 2019 7:15 PM

It's hard to say. Sometimes it's too much, but even they give me pleasure:

"She sits at the Ritz with her splits of Mumm's

And starts to pine for a stein with her Village chums,

But with a Schlitz in her midst down at Fitzroy's Bar,

She thinks of the Ritz, oh it's so schizo."

by Anonymousreply 3April 23, 2019 7:21 PM

Mitts not midst r3.

by Anonymousreply 4April 23, 2019 7:21 PM

I think his trouble has been that they always announce their cleverness so hard that they are sometimes too self-conscious. It's interesting to me that he considers one of the all-time greatest lyricists Dorothy Fields, and that he cites one of her simplest lyrics as one of his all-time favorites because of its simplicity:

"Grab your coat

And get your hat

Leave your worries on the doorstep

Just direct your feet

On the sunny side of the street.

Can't you hear a pitter-pat?

And that happy tune is your step.

Life can be so sweet

On the sunny side of the street."

That's memorable, but isn't trying to show off.

by Anonymousreply 5April 23, 2019 7:24 PM

More genuinely great Dorothy Fields, where she "inhales the idiom" (to use her own phrase) of the people who would sing the song without forcing things too much or trying to draw attention to herself:

The minute you walked in the joint,

I could see you were a man of distinction,

A real big spender--

Good-lookin', so refined.

Say, wouldn't you like to know what's going on in my mind?

So let me get right to the point:

I don't pop my cork for ev'ry guy I see.

Hey! Big Spender,

Spend a little time with me.

by Anonymousreply 6April 23, 2019 7:27 PM

Things like being careful with your coriander,

that's what makes the gravy grander!

by Anonymousreply 7April 23, 2019 7:33 PM

This hasn't anything to do with his lyrics but particular musical themes he has. If you listen to the opening of "Follies" (particularly on the Paper Mill Playhouse cast album) and the opening of "A Little Night Music", the music is brilliant in every way and a pleasure to the ear. "Follies" starts off soft and profound, and bam, it's brassy and grand. The "A Little Night Music" waltz starts off with the ensemble basically being the vocal you hear as the orchestra builds into a sumptuous symphony. It's the closest from Broadway we've had to a classically themed musical score, and whether I am in the theater or listening to it on the CD, it is just thrilling. I wish they'd not have put the dialog over it on the last "Follies" cast album. It is very distracting, while in the theater, I could multi-task listening to both the music and the dialog.

by Anonymousreply 8April 23, 2019 7:37 PM

I saw a production of A Little Night Music with a friend, and afterward he grumped about Now-Later-Soon, "Gr, I hate it when Sondheim shows off like that." I said, "Well, at least he's good at it."

I personally love Now-Later-Soon (and the rest of the lyrics for ANLM), especially this bit: In view of her penchant/For something romantic/De Sade is too trenchant/And Dickens too frantic/And Stendahl would ruin the plan of attack/As there isn't much blue in The Red and the Black/De Maupassant's candor/Would cause her dismay/The Brontes are grander/But not very gay/Her taste is much blander/I'm sorry to say/But is Hans Christian Ander-/Sen ever risque?

by Anonymousreply 9April 23, 2019 7:39 PM

I can’t stand Sondheim’s sing song talkie lyrics the most overrated composer ever.

by Anonymousreply 10April 23, 2019 7:56 PM

I think he's the master. And his music is underrated. So many beautiful themes. Too Many Mornings from Follies is so lush and romantic. I love that interlude before the final chorus where Sally and Ben sing together. It melts me.

by Anonymousreply 11April 23, 2019 8:08 PM

I can't answer right now, I'm tied up in my torture basement.

by Anonymousreply 12April 23, 2019 8:15 PM

But where are the clowns? Send in the clowns

by Anonymousreply 13April 23, 2019 9:18 PM

You're always sorry; you're always grateful. You hold her, thinking "I'm not alone." You're still alone.

Talkie, sing-song lyric, r10?

He's a master of his craft, and a seriously under-rated composer. How anyone can think LMM is the heir apparent is beyond me.

by Anonymousreply 14April 23, 2019 9:22 PM

Anyone can whistle...

by Anonymousreply 15April 23, 2019 9:26 PM

I'm less of a fan of Sondheim's later work (Assassins, Passion and Road Show/Bounce) where he often abandons the lush melodies of his earlier work for what a friend of mine calls "talking to music."

by Anonymousreply 16April 23, 2019 9:32 PM

I know there's a lot of dislike for (or at least indifference to) Passion, but I think it's his most musically sophisticated --and passionate--shows. I'll agree on the Bounce variations; Assassins is its own animal. I like it a lot, but lush melodies, not so much.

by Anonymousreply 17April 23, 2019 10:03 PM

Yay, I get to post my latest obsession!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 18April 23, 2019 10:39 PM

That's the sound of an audience losing its mind!

It's the pope on his balcony blessing mankind!

Folks, it's Funny Girl, Fiddler and Dolly combined!

by Anonymousreply 19April 23, 2019 10:49 PM

Clever. Sometimes he shoots and misses the mark, but who couldn't love " No I'm not getting married today"? "Being Alive", "Children will Listen". "Agony". "Have a little priest", "I Feel you, Johanna", " The sun comes up, I think about you (Losing my mind) ". Music for sensitive-souled gay men!

by Anonymousreply 20April 23, 2019 10:57 PM

I've always thought "I'm Still Here" was very clever. Yvonne De Carlo should have sued for royalties.

First you're another sloe-eyed vamp, then someone's mother, then you're camp!

It's totally her life and career.

by Anonymousreply 21April 24, 2019 3:58 PM

Still here

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 22April 24, 2019 4:19 PM

If you can not listen to the words of A Little Priest, it's actually a lovely waltz, worthy of ALNM.

by Anonymousreply 23April 24, 2019 5:45 PM

Passion is HORRID

Bounce is boring

The rest is genius

by Anonymousreply 24April 24, 2019 5:56 PM

I'm sure r24 would like to add that these are just *opinions*

by Anonymousreply 25April 24, 2019 6:19 PM

Road Show is just a pastiche of all of Sondheim's tricks.

by Anonymousreply 26April 24, 2019 6:25 PM

I'd say he can be both. There isn't a lyricist who doesn't know that they've written songs that are sub-par or just do not come across as envisioned (no matter how many times they try to fix before the show is locked down).

Enjoy "Into the Words" from Forbidden Broadway

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by Anonymousreply 27April 24, 2019 6:27 PM

No love for Anyone Can Whistle?

by Anonymousreply 28April 24, 2019 11:02 PM

Yay, I get to post my OTHER obsession!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 29April 24, 2019 11:26 PM

It's a great song.

by Anonymousreply 30April 24, 2019 11:28 PM

Relax, let go, let fly...

by Anonymousreply 31April 24, 2019 11:55 PM

I have a French friend who LOVES Passion. He credits this to not speaking or understanding English well. He turns the part of his brain off that focuses on story and words and just swoons to the music.

by Anonymousreply 32April 25, 2019 12:26 AM

That's probably the best way to listen to it. It's like a rhapsody. It *is* a rhapsody.

by Anonymousreply 33April 25, 2019 12:38 AM

A master? Yes.

The master?

No.

He had too many duds and even his hits failed to be hits.

by Anonymousreply 34April 25, 2019 12:44 AM

Nobody is bette than Sondheim.....Gypsy alone makes him the best Lyrisist in musical theatre history

by Anonymousreply 35April 25, 2019 12:49 AM

Sondheim is a genius. Watch his 80th Birthday concert with Stritch, Lupone, Marin Mazzie, and Donna Murphy killing "Leave You". I agree about Passion. It's tedious.

by Anonymousreply 36April 25, 2019 12:51 AM

Whatever the boat I row, you row.

A duo !

Whatever the row I hoe, you hoe.

A trio !

And any I.O.U. I owe, you owe.

Who, me owe ?

No, you owe !

No, we owe

Together !

by Anonymousreply 37April 25, 2019 12:56 AM

I'll receive them in the Red Room

And impress them with a feast

Then retire to my bedroom

Where I'm planning to stay until Monday at least!

by Anonymousreply 38April 25, 2019 12:58 AM

That’s a deep cut, r38. Bravo!

by Anonymousreply 39April 25, 2019 1:00 AM

Another vote here for Passion. Deep, passionate and haunting. Donna Murphy was brilliant as Fosca.

by Anonymousreply 40April 25, 2019 1:31 AM

I have gone to Moscow

It's very gay

...well, anyway,

...On the first of May

by Anonymousreply 41April 25, 2019 1:39 AM

I love Ethel Merman and Mary Martin singing "Send in the Clowns" because Stephen Sondheim made a few changes in the lyrics for them .

by Anonymousreply 42April 25, 2019 1:56 AM

"How anyone can think LMM is the heir apparent is beyond me."

Trust me, r14, nobody does...

by Anonymousreply 43April 25, 2019 2:05 AM

Well, at least one person (LMM) does. And actually I've seen that comment written several times. It makes my blood boil.

And being "the master" isn't about *hits", r34.

by Anonymousreply 44April 25, 2019 2:10 AM

We will be praying for such "clunkiness" when he shuffles off this mortal coil and we're left with nothing but drivel and dribblings.

by Anonymousreply 45April 25, 2019 2:12 AM

"...turning and reaching and waking and dying."

by Anonymousreply 46April 25, 2019 2:15 AM

[quote] We will be praying for such "clunkiness" when he shuffles off this mortal coil and we're left with nothing but drivel and dribblings.

Mary!

by Anonymousreply 47April 25, 2019 2:16 AM

There are two Sondheim scores I dislike (Passion and Road Show), and one song that's just horrible (Ah, But Underneath).

But other than that, he's the king. Night Music, Follies, Sweeney, Pacific Overtures, Company, Sunday in the Park, Into the Woods, even Merrily - that's an astonishing output right there.

by Anonymousreply 48April 25, 2019 2:21 AM

I wouldn't reduce Merrily to "even Merrily;" it's a terrific score. And I'd include both Forum and Whistle. And Passion. I wouldn't fight for Road Show.

Why do you think Ah, But Underneath is horrible? "As changeable as a chameleon, with all that entails/But nobody knows what was really underneath all those veils." I love it.

by Anonymousreply 49April 25, 2019 2:25 AM

Anyone who can write "and be hopelessly shattered by Saturday night" is okay by me.

by Anonymousreply 50April 25, 2019 2:28 AM

Weren't we chuckleheads then?

by Anonymousreply 51April 25, 2019 2:30 AM

I love those stealth rhymes, r50.

by Anonymousreply 52April 25, 2019 2:31 AM

Go away, I need ya

Come to me, I'll kill ya

Darling I'll do anything to keep you with me till ya

Tell me that you love me oh you did not beat it will ya

BLUES!!!!!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 53April 25, 2019 2:34 AM

^now beat it will ya

by Anonymousreply 54April 25, 2019 2:35 AM

r37 We passed on that one. But it was good enough for Marcia and Carol Brady.

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by Anonymousreply 55April 25, 2019 3:05 AM

Too much pushing a narrative into a few lines, rather then letting the overall feel of a song, push a story. And sometimes, it's better to let the actors act out / talk out what is happening, rather then pushing the plot through a clunky talking-sing song.

by Anonymousreply 56April 25, 2019 3:11 AM

He criticized Noel Coward for writing the kind of love songs that someone who has never been in love would write. Yet he gave his own young male lovers lyrics like "I feel you, Johanna and one day, I'll steal you;" and "I pine, I blush, I squeak, I squawk/Today I woke too weak to walk." That is a brilliantly clever couplet, but has any young man ever woken too weak to walk because he was in love?

This is minor nit-picking of course. Sondheim is a national treasure.

by Anonymousreply 57April 25, 2019 5:12 AM

[quote]Why do you think Ah, But Underneath is horrible?

Because it’s so inferior to both the songs that previously held that spot, particularly “Lucy and Jessie,” which is perfect.

It’s also the equivalent of Sondheim masturbating. Too clever by far, self-consciously so, in a way that the other two aren’t.

by Anonymousreply 58April 25, 2019 5:19 AM

[quote]I wouldn't reduce Merrily to "even Merrily;" it's a terrific score

Well, it’s fine, certainly compared to his last two. But I’ve seen the show four times (including Broadway and La Jolla) and it’s really bad. And I was glad he allowed this last revival to put “Rich and Happy” back, because “That Frank” is a stinker.

by Anonymousreply 59April 25, 2019 5:26 AM

" has any young man ever woken too weak to walk because he was in love?"

In the world of comedy, absolutely! Extremes of appetite, behavior, polarities...the comic essence.

"He criticized Noel Coward for writing the kind of love songs that someone who has never been in love would write."

Coward was British, so as far as the emotionally reserved lyrics go, I'll say "arguably." But the music? Unequivocally no. In song after song, he touches the heart with a turn of musical phrase that devastates.

by Anonymousreply 60April 25, 2019 5:38 AM

OP I always thought the line from Follies should be 'careen from career to career' and never got the 'career from career to career' so I was interested when you chose that line as an example of being clever.

What am I missing in that line - I don't get it.

by Anonymousreply 61April 25, 2019 5:48 AM

R10 You can dislike Sondheim all you want, but he ain't overrated. Even people you disdained him (Jerry Herman, Richard Rogers) were a bit jealous of his talent.

My favorite score is still Sunday in the Park with George. As a teenager Showtime was showing the production with Mandy and Bernadette, I caught a bit of it and thought, 'I just don't like this'. Then I would catch another part and would think ' what is going on here' and was intrigued enough to tape it (remember vcrs?) and watch from the beginning. It then blew me away.

I didn't know theater could be like that. I got chills when Bernadette, singing as the old woman Marie (Dot's daughter), points to all the women in the picture:

There she is, there she is There she is, there she is Mama is everywhere He must have loved her so much

I've loved theater (particularly Sondheim and Kander/Ebb ever since.

by Anonymousreply 62April 25, 2019 6:03 AM

^ who had disdain for him

by Anonymousreply 63April 25, 2019 6:04 AM

What happened after Passion. That was brilliant then all we've had or different versions of the Mizner brothers story.

It was the first Sondheim score I just don't respond to, in any version. I even like Pacific Overtures which I thought I would hate.

Does he have one more good score in him? Is he working on anything?

by Anonymousreply 64April 25, 2019 6:09 AM

[quote]I always thought the line from Follies should be 'careen from career to career' and never got the 'career from career to career'

Didn't you think of looking up the definitions of "career," r61? It has two, one as a noun, one as a verb. Sondheim is using both definitions in that line. As a verb, career means "move swiftly and in an uncontrolled way in a specified direction: the car careered across the road and went through a hedge."

by Anonymousreply 65April 25, 2019 8:26 AM

R64, he's been working with David Ives for several years on a musical based on two Luis Bunuel films.

by Anonymousreply 66April 25, 2019 11:02 AM

[quote]There she is, there she is There she is, there she is Mama is everywhere He must have loved her so much

Except of course she doesn't see her in any of those. Seurat redid the women in his paintings for new lovers as old ones departed.

by Anonymousreply 67April 25, 2019 11:50 AM

"A weekend in the country

Taking rambles, having leisurely chats

A weekend in the country

Wiith the brambles and the gnats"

I love how the word 'gnats' lands in the music. He never cheats rhyme nor scansion, yet he always writes each line specifically for each cearacter(s) who will sing it. The people singing the lines above are all headed out for a weekend in the country that they don't want and already know they won't enjoy. Gnats!

by Anonymousreply 68April 25, 2019 12:20 PM

‘Nuf said. Madonna is the gilt on the lily.

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by Anonymousreply 69April 25, 2019 12:40 PM

From Joanne in "Company" to Phyllis in "Follies".....presenting the former Miss Adelaide, Vivian Blaine!

And Selma Diamond ("Night Court") singing "Broadway Baby". Oh what a hoot that must have been!

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by Anonymousreply 70April 25, 2019 12:46 PM

[quote][R37] We passed on that one. But it was good enough for Marcia and Carol Brady.

I sang it with my Uncle Philip when he took me back to Atlanta to see where he and my Daddy grew up.

by Anonymousreply 71April 25, 2019 12:50 PM

R58, I love, love, love "Ah, but Underneath". I prefer it to "Lucy and Jessie". Personally, I think "Ah, but Underneath" explains Phyllis to a 'T'. Everything she did after marrying Ben, her underlying insecurities, leaving her believing, "some times when the wrappings fall / there's nothing underneath at all" should hit the audience hard... and the lyrics do, especially when the somewhat discordant horns play right after to close the number.

For me, "Lucy and Jessie" is too clever by half.

by Anonymousreply 72April 25, 2019 1:01 PM

"Ah, but Underneath!" has a text that better serves the character of Phyllis. She reveals things about herself in that song that are searingly painful. "In the depths of her interior were fears she was inferior...." Keeping a fear like that under wraps is something to which we can all relate, yet Sondheim has brilliantly used the burlesque genre as a way for Phyllis to reveal her pain, layer by layer. "The Story of Lucy and Jessie" has such tongue-twister lyrics that no one in the theater, save for the Sondheim Queens, are getting even half of the lyrics. The story is lost. Phyllis is not well served.

However, the music for "The Story of Lucy and Jessie" better fits the moment in the show when Phyllis's folly is examined. The pent up anger, as well as the woman's cool, are right there to be experienced. "Ah, but Underneath!" is a more cerebral thing and while it talks about Phyllis's contradictions, they don't really manifest in the song.

We might as well throw in "Uptown, Downtown" for consideration. All three of them are great songs that any composer or lyricist would envy. But none of them really are perfect for Phyllis's moment in the show in the way that Sondheim nailed Sally's moment in the Loveland Sequence. It speaks to Sondheim's genius that he could have three near misses of this extraordinary quality.

by Anonymousreply 73April 25, 2019 1:23 PM

Selma Diamond in Follies???? THAT I would have loved to have seen

by Anonymousreply 74April 25, 2019 1:36 PM

Nicely written R73.

"Uptown/Downtown" is a great stand alone piece... I'm sure there are many cabaret singers who would love to add it their repertoire; but good Lord it's exhausting.

One reason I love the Paper Mill's recording of "Follies" is that all of those rejected songs are included and we get Dee Hoty preserving the Phyllis numbers. She's dynamite on the CD.

by Anonymousreply 75April 25, 2019 3:06 PM

[quote]one song that's just horrible (Ah, But Underneath).

I know I'm in the minority and will probably get kicked out of Musical Theater Village and stoned, but I like "Ah, But Underneath". Is it a perfect song? No way. But I like it so much better than the other two songs he had in that spot.

In the depths of her interior

were fears she was inferior

but no one dared to query her superior exterior!

by Anonymousreply 76April 25, 2019 4:00 PM

"And we have some shepherd's pie peppered with *actual* shepherd on top!"

Master.

by Anonymousreply 77April 25, 2019 4:08 PM

[quote]but has any young man ever woken too weak to walk because he was in love?

There was that one night in Brazil where I enjoyed the attentions of several gentleman callers all at once, they just kept coming and coming, appearing out of thin air. The next day I was too weak to walk because I was in love with Brazilian cock.

by Anonymousreply 78April 25, 2019 4:09 PM

[quote]OP I always thought the line from Follies should be 'careen from career to career' and never got the 'career from career to career' so I was interested when you chose that line as an example of being clever. What am I missing in that line - I don't get it.

r61, career can also mean to move swiftly in an uncontrolled manner. It's such a perfect line because it reflects Carlotta's bumpy existence.

by Anonymousreply 79April 25, 2019 4:12 PM

I think I prefer Ah, But Underneath a bit more myself. I really wish they'd given that number to the non-dancing Jan Maxwell in that last Broadway revival. I remember seeing her do "Lucy and Jessie" in D.C. and wanting to crawl under my seat to escape it. I'd never seen anyone work so hard for so little. She moved like a linebacker. To make matters worse, she was brilliant in every other moment in that show. I'm still convinced that number cost her the Tony.

by Anonymousreply 80April 25, 2019 6:26 PM

One of my favorite too-clever-by-half Sondheim songs is Please Hello from Pacific Overtures. Admirals from five different countries try to persuade the Shogun's councilor to sign trade treaties. The US admiral sings a pastiche of a Sousa march, the British admiral a Gilbert & Sullivan patter song, the Dutch a clog dance, the Russian a dirge and the French a can-can. On top of that the order in which the admirals and appear and the things ask for or promise are historically correct, AND they speak in pidgin versions of their native languages. Virtually NO one would get all that on first or even second listen, except for, perhaps, the pastiches. Sondheim rewards repeated listens.

I also love this couplet from Chrysanthemum Tea in the same show: "If the tea the Shogun drank will/Serve to keep the Shogun tranquil."

I've never seen Pacific Overtures (except for poorly filmed original production on YT) and would love to see a full-scale revival with a full orchestra and something approaching Boris Aronson's original designs. I know the reduced version was revived a couple of seasons ago, but PO would look fantastic at the Beaumont at Lincoln Center.

by Anonymousreply 81April 25, 2019 8:36 PM

r81, the original production filmed for Japanese TV is currently on YT. It's the best version I've seen over the decades (usually, the videos were washed-out and faded) and as close an approximation of the Broadway mounting you're ever likely to see.

by Anonymousreply 82April 25, 2019 8:45 PM

I love all of Pacific Overtures. A Bowler Hat is sublime, as is Poems. And of course Someone In A Tree. I wish the show got decent revivals; the Studio 54 one was passable. Just.

by Anonymousreply 83April 25, 2019 8:49 PM

I think I saw the original production of PO two or three times (when a ticket top was approx. $15!), and it was always sparsely attended. It remains to this day the most beautiful production I've ever seen, sharing pride of place with the Follies sequence in you-know-what, also designed by the masterful Aronson.

by Anonymousreply 84April 25, 2019 9:05 PM

I saw it too (although only once, and also in a half-empty house) and was so moved by it.

by Anonymousreply 85April 25, 2019 9:13 PM

He's a master lyricist. The music is hit and miss.

by Anonymousreply 86April 25, 2019 9:14 PM

Baloney.

by Anonymousreply 87April 25, 2019 9:20 PM

"Once I was a schlepper. Now I'm Miss Mazeppa."

by Anonymousreply 88April 25, 2019 9:22 PM

You want Cole Porter/Noel Coward lyrics coming from a stripper?

by Anonymousreply 89April 25, 2019 9:24 PM

Another vote for Pacific Overtures. It was my second Broadway show on my first day in NYC. The first was the Saturday matinee performance of CHICAGO with the entire original cast. Pacific Overtures was overwhelmingly beautiful. I had studied the cast album from the day it was released and knew every word. To see it all realized on stage was a magnificent experience.

Silly me. I was in college and thought Broadway would always be like that. It remains my best day as an audience member.

by Anonymousreply 90April 25, 2019 9:29 PM

I'm electrifyin'/And I ain't even tryin'!

by Anonymousreply 91April 25, 2019 9:31 PM

Sondheim is very self-conscious about his cleverness in his lyrics, and some people love that and some people don't. I can actually see both sides to the argument. There's no denying he's had an enormous influence on other lyricists and composers and thus is a very major figure in the history of Broadway (probably THE single most important and influential creative figure after the 1950s); but it's also possible to dislike him and to consider his work precious.

I've always been a big fan, though some of his songs do make me wince a bit as their self-consciousness.

by Anonymousreply 92April 25, 2019 9:36 PM

I love the island Manhatten!

Smoooooke on your pipe and put that en!

by Anonymousreply 93April 25, 2019 9:40 PM

"I was in college and thought Broadway would always be like that"

The saddest words ever posted on DL theatre threads. I feel you, poster.

by Anonymousreply 94April 25, 2019 9:46 PM

A double "baloney" from me as well, r87.

by Anonymousreply 95April 25, 2019 9:49 PM

Lovely post, r90. Thanks.

by Anonymousreply 96April 25, 2019 9:55 PM

I saw Pacific Overtures.

I was glad I saw the show and admired the songs, but could see why it wasn't a mainstream hit.

by Anonymousreply 97April 25, 2019 9:58 PM

THIS, bitches

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by Anonymousreply 98April 25, 2019 10:15 PM

Master lyricist but has only written two really beautiful melodies..."No One Is Alone" from "Into The Woods" and "Unworthy of Your Love" from "Assassins"

by Anonymousreply 99April 25, 2019 10:21 PM

sez you, r99.

by Anonymousreply 100April 25, 2019 10:23 PM

I dooz R100

by Anonymousreply 101April 25, 2019 10:38 PM

[quote]"And we have some shepherd's pie peppered with *actual* shepherd on top!"

Whenever I see Shepherds Pie on a menu, I ask the waiter if it’s made with actual shepherd.

by Anonymousreply 102April 25, 2019 10:44 PM

I hope you're a good tipper, r102

by Anonymousreply 103April 25, 2019 10:54 PM

R102 is every waiter's nightmare!

by Anonymousreply 104April 25, 2019 10:57 PM

Yup.

by Anonymousreply 105April 25, 2019 10:58 PM

Only two “really beautiful melodies,” R99?

You forgot “Send in the clowns” which is so beautiful it became a standard covered by everybody from Judy Collins to Sinatra. My favorite version: Sarah Vaughan.

Or “Losing My Mind” ... or “It’s Our Time” ... or many, many more.

by Anonymousreply 106April 25, 2019 11:07 PM

"Master lyricist but has only written two really beautiful melodies..."No One Is Alone" from "Into The Woods" and "Unworthy of Your Love" from "Assassins":

More like his least interesting. No One Is Alone is reminiscent of The Candyman and Unworthy is a pop manqué.

by Anonymousreply 107April 25, 2019 11:18 PM

I am a very good tipper.

Some of them look puzzled, but most of them laugh.

by Anonymousreply 108April 25, 2019 11:24 PM

Sondheim = Clever

When challenged by the NY Times to rhyme one of the many rhyme-less words (like orange, silver, purple, month, ninth, etc.) Sondheim came up with this solution:

To rhyme a word like “silver”,

Or any rhyme-less rhyme,

Requires only will, ver-

Bosity and time.

by Anonymousreply 109April 25, 2019 11:43 PM

I once rhymed "orange" with "car eng-ine" but forget when, where, how or why.

by Anonymousreply 110April 25, 2019 11:48 PM

Never liked Sondheim, then I saw this...

Prior, I found his music affected and pretentious (like this sentence). This performance really hit me regarding how brilliant a lyricist and composer he is. Both give talented musicians a broad field to express themselves (really takes off at 3:15) . He's a genius IMHO.

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by Anonymousreply 111April 25, 2019 11:50 PM

Well, if I watched Julian Ovenden sing THRENODY FOR THE VICTIMS OF HIROSHIMA, I'd love Krzysztof Penderecki, too.

by Anonymousreply 112April 25, 2019 11:54 PM

Into The Woods is shit.

by Anonymousreply 113April 26, 2019 12:02 AM

No, R12. It's the straight jacket.......whatever you do, don't get into the straight jacket!!! (Because your trick will hide the key and rob you!)

by Anonymousreply 114April 26, 2019 12:05 AM

"When you're in a tizzy, dizzy wiz ze mutual detante!"

by Anonymousreply 115April 26, 2019 12:56 AM

Sondheim will always be an acquired taste for the masses. I don't even think it's the music and lyrics themselves. I think it's because he tends to always gravitate towards darker, less feel good shows. Company, Night Music, and Into the Woods seem to do well because they're slightly lighter shows than Sweeney or Follies or even Sunday. Still, they have a certain darkness to them that you wouldn't find in a Jerry Herman show. Imagine a Jerry Herman Into the Woods or Company and you'll see what I mean.

People still complain about act 2 of Into the Woods because it's depressing and dark, but to me, it's what makes it worth seeing. That's where the writers seem to have something to say. The 1st act is a blast (when performed well), but the 2nd act is where it really finds its humanity and grounds these fantastical stories in some very universal emotions and truths.

by Anonymousreply 116April 26, 2019 1:30 AM

You're absolutely right, r116. I'd say the same holds true for the second act of Sunday; without it, it's just a little piece about a peculiar artist making a painting and ignoring his mistress in the process. And while both may seem a bit dark, they do--as you say--find their humanity and give us all something to feel, and something to believe in.

Who else does that? It's true that his collaborators generally offer the idea, but it's Sondheim's writing, both words and music, that ultimately shape and tell the story.

by Anonymousreply 117April 26, 2019 1:47 AM

Not a day goes by especially sung by Bernadette a few years ago....that's my Sondheim "Mary!" Moment

by Anonymousreply 118April 26, 2019 2:05 AM

"but the 2nd act is where it really finds its humanity and grounds these fantastical stories in some very universal emotions and truths." "find their humanity and give us all something to feel, and something to believe in."

What emotion? What truth? That no one is alone? That sounds pretty facile, not to mention untrue, to me. As far as SITPWG goes, all it's wrangling about art can't disguise the fact that it has no second act, and whatever "truths" it has to offer are insular and esoteric. There are properties about artists that truly make you care about the subject and their struggles because they're presented in human terms, such as Huston's MOULIN ROUGE or Minnelli's LUST FOR LIFE. But SITPWG isn't one of them.

by Anonymousreply 119April 26, 2019 3:21 AM

[quote]You forgot “Send in the clowns” which is so beautiful it became a standard covered by everybody from Judy Collins to Sinatra. My favorite version: Sarah Vaughan.

It's a dirge.

by Anonymousreply 120April 26, 2019 10:36 AM

In addition to "No One is Alone," and "Unworthy of Your Love," R99, what about "Joanna"? It's a beautiful melody, too, as is "Kiss Me" ("I loved you even as I saw you...") And my God, what about "Sunday" from Sunday in the Park? And Pretty Lady, and Send in the Clowns, and the movie version of "The Glamorous Life," and "You Must Meet My Wife" has a beautiful melody even though it's a comedic lyric.

by Anonymousreply 121April 26, 2019 11:01 AM

Oh, and "Multitudes of Amys," cut from Company, is a gorgeous melody (and lyric).

by Anonymousreply 122April 26, 2019 11:01 AM

r114 It's STRAITJACKET, dear.

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by Anonymousreply 123April 26, 2019 12:44 PM

[quote] one of the many rhyme-less words (like orange, silver, purple, month, ninth, etc.)

Roses are red

and violets are purple.

Sugar's sweet

and so is maple surple.

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by Anonymousreply 124April 26, 2019 12:47 PM

I'll add "Pretty Women" to the beautiful melodies category.

Personally speaking, Sondheim had me as a fan the first time I heard "Being Alive" (way before I knew anything about him).

by Anonymousreply 125April 26, 2019 1:38 PM

Interesting the love here for "Being Alive." It just makes me want to slap the shit out of Bobby.

It's the whiniest song in the world. If Carlotta Campion could step out of FOLLIES for a moment, she would kick Bobby's ass.

by Anonymousreply 126April 26, 2019 1:41 PM

I've wanted to bitch slap several Bobbys too, R126 (especially Raul). In other productions of Company, I've wanted to hold Bobby in my arms and stroke his hair to soothe him. at the end of the show.

by Anonymousreply 127April 26, 2019 2:04 PM

The problem with Being Alive is too many actors (and actresses) push it. The song sells itself when sung simply. It's when they add all the bombast that it becomes heavy. They "Mandy Patinkin" it. You want a good Being Alive? Sing it a capella! Go on, I dare you.

by Anonymousreply 128April 26, 2019 2:19 PM

I will never like the extended vowel sound on "Someooone" and "Somebooody." It's awkward to sing and unpleasant to hear.

There, I said it.

by Anonymousreply 129April 26, 2019 2:23 PM

I'll add more gasoline to this fire: When I first heard "Being Alive," it was from Barbra's first Broadway Album. Between that and "Ladies Who Lunch" (medley with Pretty Women), it made me get the OBC Company album and buy tickets to the next time the show was revived. (Don't remember the date-late 80s, early 90s, but the show closed before I saw it and I got a refund. Still have never seen it live.)

by Anonymousreply 130April 26, 2019 2:33 PM

In 'Being Alive' Sondheim celebrates the good and bad of being in a relationship because 'being alone is not being alive' . In the final verse, however, he pleads for help to survive 'being alive' , that is, being in a relationship. I think that what Bobby really wants is intimacy and also freedom. I can relate to that.

Didn't Sondheim acknowledge years ago that he originally did see Bobby as a gay man ? When are we going to see that version ?

by Anonymousreply 131April 26, 2019 2:35 PM

Doesn't have to be, r120!

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by Anonymousreply 132April 26, 2019 2:44 PM

Well, that was just fucking awful, R132.

by Anonymousreply 133April 26, 2019 2:49 PM

The first musical I saw as a teen was "A Little Night Music." I still recall the impact the wit of "A Weekend in the Country" had on me. I suddenly knew that there were other people in the world who were like me.

That being said, I thought Sunday in the Park with George was disappointing. The first act was great, but the second act was from a different show.

by Anonymousreply 134April 26, 2019 2:54 PM

[quote]Didn't Sondheim acknowledge years ago that he originally did see Bobby as a gay man ? When are we going to see that version ?

We've already begun to see it. Starting with the London revival in the 90s, one of the husbands makes a pass at Bobby. I think they've incorporated that into every production since as well as adding the stupid "Marry Me A Little."

by Anonymousreply 135April 26, 2019 2:55 PM

She made compliance into a science,

One of the giants -- loud or lewd or lah-dee-dah-dee,

Everything to everybody.

Sober or junkie

Clever or chunky.

She sucked off every spunky, hunky flunky!

by Anonymousreply 136April 26, 2019 3:00 PM

I've always wanted to see a video of "Ah, But Underneath" sung over clips from Bette Davis movies. Maybe I'll do one and post it to YouTube.

by Anonymousreply 137April 26, 2019 3:02 PM

I no more than appreciated the original Broadway production of "Sunday in the Park." It had an arch quality that distanced me from it. And, yes, the first and second acts seemed too disjointed by half. The heavy hand of James Lapine is always a suspect when things grow frosty on stage. Mandy Patinkin is also taxing in his won particular way. Bernatdette Peters did what she could to break through all that. But, ugh.

But then, a few years later, I saw the National Theater production with Philip Quast and Maria Friedman. The production had its own more modest physical production. It was not a derivative of the Broadway production. And it was wonderful. It had heart. It had warmth. It had a continuity from start to finish that really was missing from Lapine's production.

The video of the Broadway production preserves all of the misguided excess. How I wish there was a bootleg to be had of Quast and Friedman.

by Anonymousreply 138April 26, 2019 3:16 PM

I remember seeing "Follies" in London. It had amazing production values for the Follies segment. The stage rose into a revolving wedding cake, with men dancing with top hats and canes, for "Make the Most of Your Music."

I loved Diana Rigg singing "Ah, But Underneath." I agree that it is an exercise in Sondheim showing off, but it is a fun song and was wonderful in the show. And he has something to show off.

by Anonymousreply 139April 26, 2019 3:19 PM

I loved Forbidden Broadway skewering the too-precious Mandy Patinkin with "Somewhat Overindulgent"

by Anonymousreply 140April 26, 2019 3:22 PM

The problem with Bernadette in "Sunday In The Park" was that she was never a good actress to begin with. Her performance is how a high schooler would play a period piece. Speaking very distinctly and with "proper" diction as if you're in a Noel Coward farce was not the correct choice. I would have rather seen her just use her Queens accent like she did in every other show.

by Anonymousreply 141April 26, 2019 3:34 PM

THANK you, R119, for injecting much-needed realism into this thread.

by Anonymousreply 142April 26, 2019 3:36 PM

It's funny how American think they have to go English to play period pieces.

I remember Cynthia Nixon in "World Without End" speaking with clipped received pronunciation.

It was the fucking Middle Ages -- that way of speaking hadn't been invented yet.

by Anonymousreply 143April 26, 2019 3:38 PM

Well, good luck to some of you when Sondheim's gone and all you've got is his "heir apparent," LMM.

by Anonymousreply 144April 26, 2019 4:20 PM

BEING ALIVE is hardly whiny. It starts as a justification for Bobby's isolationism...but then it gradually evolves into a cri de coeur for connection. This is one of Sondheim's great themes, which surfaces again and again in other songs, like ANYONE CAN WHISTLE and WITH SO LITTLE TO BE SURE OF, among others.

by Anonymousreply 145April 26, 2019 4:21 PM

Sondheim made a big leap forward in his life and his writing when he advanced from writing about 'Bobby's isolationism' to writing 'No One Is Alone.'

'Being Alive' is whiney. Instead of singing about having someone cater to all his needs and assuage all his fears, Bobby needs to just go into the woods.

by Anonymousreply 146April 26, 2019 4:45 PM

Yes, r146, but do you really think whatever Bobby learns there will help when he returns there?

by Anonymousreply 147April 26, 2019 9:56 PM

Clever. The recent revival of Company on the West End was perfection. The gender swap made so much more sense, and Amy becoming Jamie worked beautifully.

by Anonymousreply 148April 26, 2019 10:23 PM

Has there been any serious talk about a transfer?

by Anonymousreply 149April 26, 2019 10:38 PM

Oh, yeah. They are definitely trying to transfer. Why wouldn’t they?

by Anonymousreply 150April 26, 2019 10:52 PM

Yes, of course. But has there been any movement, other than on chat boards?

by Anonymousreply 151April 26, 2019 11:01 PM

[quote]BEING ALIVE is hardly whiny. It starts as a justification for Bobby's isolationism...but then it gradually evolves into a cri de coeur for connection. This is one of Sondheim's great themes, which surfaces again and again in other songs, like ANYONE CAN WHISTLE and WITH SO LITTLE TO BE SURE OF, among others.

Probably his grandest theme. Both Georges say “connect” to themselves several times, Passion and ALNM are all about the need to connect, and even the assassins shout “Connect!” at the audience.

Means you get to connect!

That’s it!

Means the right to expect

That you’ll have an effect,

That you’re going to connect—

Connect!

Connect!

Connect!

by Anonymousreply 152April 26, 2019 11:21 PM

Loved the picture, R123. Regardless of how it is spelled, don't let Sondheim put that on you......you'd literally be tied up and at his mercy.

by Anonymousreply 153April 26, 2019 11:52 PM

I call bullshit. ^^

by Anonymousreply 154April 27, 2019 12:45 AM

[quote] find their humanity and give us all something to feel, and something to believe in.

Mary!

by Anonymousreply 155April 27, 2019 12:47 AM

[quote] And my God, what about "Sunday" from Sunday in the Park?

MY GOD!

by Anonymousreply 156April 27, 2019 12:51 AM

[quote]The problem with Bernadette in "Sunday In The Park" was that she was never a good actress to begin with.

Bermadette's a phenomenal actress, with the Tonys to prove it.

by Anonymousreply 157April 27, 2019 1:03 AM

I first saw Being Alive performed by Patti Lupone on the Carnegie Hall Sondheim Celebration thing -- the televised package. I watched that whole event over and over and over; it was really formative for me. Being Alive was my favorite song from it. It was probably 15 years later when I first saw a full production of Company, and I realized that as much as I'd loved the song, I'd never understood the full progression Bobby makes through the song. Moving from dismissively saying, "someone to hurt you too deep" to pleading, "somebody hurt me too deep" brought the tears streaming down, immediately. MARY!, I know.

by Anonymousreply 158April 27, 2019 1:34 AM

For R158

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by Anonymousreply 159April 27, 2019 1:36 AM

As a show enthusiast, and attempted actor, I got the chance to live near or in New York when Sondheim’s greatest shows played there. (I missed ACW, but, hey, so did the rest of the world. I never saw WSS onstage, though I loved the movie. I did see the Tyne Daly Gypsy, though, for some reason, I never much liked Gypsy.)

Company twice, first as a tryout in Boston, but both times with Dean Jones. Follies twice, and also the London production. ALNM twice. PO twice: the obc then the first revival. Sweeney twice, with that extraneous iron foundry. Merrily in previews. SITPWG: both obc, NT, and the incredible Jake Gyllenhaal. ITW: obc and first revival, with the best cow. Passion obc, which I first hated, then grew to love the score. The Nathan Lane Funny Thing. Wise Guys at the Public, with all that flying money.

Funny, how I just seemed to take them all for granted, as if they’d always just continue to flow. I guess it was the Silver Age of musicals, not as shiny as the greats, darker, even tarnished. But, Lord, how those shows linger in the mind.

I moved away from New York in 1987. The last show I saw before leaving was a preview of Into the Woods. Fitting.

by Anonymousreply 160April 27, 2019 2:03 AM

[quote]Sondheim will always be an acquired taste for the masses. I don't even think it's the music and lyrics themselves. I think it's because he tends to always gravitate towards darker, less feel good shows. Company, Night Music, and Into the Woods seem to do well because they're slightly lighter shows than Sweeney or Follies or even Sunday. Still, they have a certain darkness to them that you wouldn't find in a Jerry Herman show. Imagine a Jerry Herman Into the Woods or Company and you'll see what I mean.

I can't sign on to this. Sweeney has been produced by almost every major opera house on the planet except the Met - plus the successful Doyle revival on the West End and Broadway. And calling Company, Night Music and Into the Woods "light" is off the mark. In their own ways they're as "dark" as Sweeney.

by Anonymousreply 161April 27, 2019 2:29 AM

Why must "light" be a pejorative? I agree that there is plenty of "dark" in "Into the Woods," but I wouldn't use that word for Company or Night Music.

by Anonymousreply 162April 27, 2019 9:23 AM

R158 Tell me about it, it always makes me cry too!

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by Anonymousreply 163April 27, 2019 10:10 AM

Embarrassing.

by Anonymousreply 164April 27, 2019 5:38 PM

The hands on the clock turn/But don't sing a nocturne just yet...

by Anonymousreply 165April 27, 2019 5:58 PM

I always loved the song "Being Alive" isolated from the show, but in the context of the show, I never felt like it made much sense. I always thought Sondheim's original final song "Happily Ever After" worked better and jived with the tone of the show better.

by Anonymousreply 166April 27, 2019 10:28 PM

I agree. I love the song but it's too abrupt a switch from his commitment-avoidance all evening, and it's hard to understand what changed his mind. But Happily Ever After is really too negative. It seems to me that the climax should have been a decision on Bobby's part to get some distance from his meddling/busybody friends and decide for himself how he wanted to live his life. And a song that reflected that kind of positive growth would have made a great ending.

by Anonymousreply 167April 27, 2019 10:33 PM

[quote]loud or lewd or lah-dee-dah-dee, Everything to everybody.

Everyone who criticizes that song usually points to "lah dee dah dee" as a weakness, but I take more issue with "loud or lewd."

The song is supposed to be showing that she could be the opposite of what she seemed, so it trades in contrasts. Loud and lewd don't sound very dissimilar to me. Indeed, it sounds like the very same person.

I think "prude or lewd" would have fit better, as it not only adds a rhyme, prude provides a better contrast to lewd than loud.

by Anonymousreply 168April 27, 2019 11:13 PM

"it's hard to understand what changed his mind"

The Elaine Stritch character makes a pass at Bobby and says "I'll take care of you," presumably meaning a boy-toy sort of arrangement.

But Bobby retorts, "But who will I take care of?" Meaning something else altogether.

And that's the flash of lightning and crack of thunder. When Bobby confesses to feeling compassion for another human being, that's when his rite of passage begins. Getting away from his friends is only half the battle. And Being Alive beautifully captures the working out of his conflicted status to future commitment. I can't imagine another song that would work better.

by Anonymousreply 169April 27, 2019 11:24 PM

I hadn't focused on the compassion element of that epiphany. Thanks--interesting point.

by Anonymousreply 170April 27, 2019 11:56 PM

You, too, must have read Joyce and Joseph Campbell. r170. Can we live in a house by the sea together?

by Anonymousreply 171April 28, 2019 12:05 AM

I think that Company's biggest weakness is that every relationship in the show is shown to have huge flaws. (Infidelity, drinking, inequality of partners, etc). Why should Bobby pine to have a relationship like those? Being Alive, I think, is meant to be his reflection on what he has seen. But "Alone is alone, not alive" is basically a paean to the notion that a relationship, no matter how horrible, must always be preferable to being alone (which doesn't read true, either as a psychological truth or even just looking at what he has observed - and, after all, his role in the show is as the Observer). However, read as his openness to a possibility of trying to find (or create) a relationship BETTER than those he has observed, the song could work - but that is not ever made clear by the staging leading up to it. Strangely, for me, the song is more effective all on its own - not in the context of the show.

by Anonymousreply 172April 28, 2019 12:31 AM

Clunky.

by Anonymousreply 173April 28, 2019 12:32 AM

COMPANY started as a series of one act comedies and sketches by George Furth about contemporary relationships, to be played through the evening by the same few actors and actresse. Despite all the heavy reworking of it, it still plays that way. It was stated above the Bobby is 'the Observer.' That suggests that the interesting actions and ideas in the play are those which he observes and I think that is correct. HIs observing of them isn't all that interesting. He isn't, either. That interchange with Joanne may be intended to set up "Being Alive," but it's not enough. The 11 o'clock number is given to an uninteresting character whose role in the play is not important enough to support it.

But Stephen Sondheim! Boris Aronson! Michael Bennett! Jonathan Tunick! So much talent lavished on Hal Prince's idea of how to tart up an evening of modest one-act sketches. The fact remains, it started out as not much and, at its heart, there it stays.

by Anonymousreply 174April 28, 2019 12:16 PM

I think the creative team understood all this, r174--or at least Sondheim has several times described Bobby as a cipher who was added as a means of stitching together these disparate sketches. Still, in terms of making a silk purse out of a sow's ear.....

Not everything has to be Long Day's Journey Into Night.

by Anonymousreply 175April 28, 2019 12:42 PM

"Not everything has to be Long Day's Journey Into Night."

That's a more interesting idea than any idea you'll find in COMPANY. It would make a great thread on these august pages.

by Anonymousreply 176April 28, 2019 12:47 PM

With every lyric, every syllable, Sondheim signals how very clever he (thinks he) is. It often gets in the way of enjoying the song.

by Anonymousreply 177April 28, 2019 1:38 PM

Moose Charlap posting at R177.

by Anonymousreply 178April 28, 2019 1:44 PM

^ It pains me more than I can say-the lack of taste that they display. ^

by Anonymousreply 179April 28, 2019 1:45 PM

I yield to no one in my love for the magnificent LONG DAY'S JOURNEY INTO NIGHT, but let's give credit where it's due..

Though it may have started out as disparate one-acts, Prince not only gave the show a coherency, through line and central metaphor (Manhattan as marriage/relationships), but also imbued the evening with a surreal atmosphere and a non-linear, prismatic and Cubist style of looking at its subject matter (just as he channeled Magritte on ALNM). Add the plastic and design elements to the mix and you have a Wagnerian "gesamtkunstwerk," a total work of art. A profound achievement in any genre but particularly for the musical theatre, and it's too bad the intellectual rigors of the concept musical seem to have fallen into desuetude into today's market.

by Anonymousreply 180April 28, 2019 1:51 PM

My goodness, r180; take a seat.

by Anonymousreply 181April 28, 2019 1:53 PM

"The sun comes up, I think about you

The coffee cup, I think about you"

Oh dear.

by Anonymousreply 182April 28, 2019 2:00 PM

what are you oh, dearing about, Moose? you can't be finding fault with that lyric, can you?

by Anonymousreply 183April 28, 2019 2:07 PM

Clunky.

by Anonymousreply 184April 28, 2019 2:14 PM

Oh, go clunk yourself.

by Anonymousreply 185April 28, 2019 3:30 PM

"Lounging in their caftans and planning a brunch..."

by Anonymousreply 186April 28, 2019 4:17 PM

Sondy.

by Anonymousreply 187April 28, 2019 6:03 PM

Christine Ebersole as Mary Tyrone in JOURNEY! the Eugene O’Neill musical.

by Anonymousreply 188April 28, 2019 6:28 PM

Mandy Patinkin as Vakulinchuk in POTEMKIN! a new Sondheim musical allegory of the Trump administration (loosely based on the film Battleship Potemkin.)

by Anonymousreply 189April 28, 2019 6:38 PM

[quote]The problem with Bernadette in "Sunday In The Park" was that she was never a good actress to begin with. Her performance is how a high schooler would play a period piece. Speaking very distinctly and with "proper" diction as if you're in a Noel Coward farce was not the correct choice. I would have rather seen her just use her Queens accent like she did in every other show.

Guess the director was out sick when she rehearsed.

by Anonymousreply 190April 29, 2019 2:01 AM

It's intolerable/Being tolerated.

by Anonymousreply 191April 29, 2019 6:26 PM

"The woods are just trees,

The trees are just wood."

Clunky

by Anonymousreply 192April 29, 2019 6:53 PM

Before you dismiss it, R192, why not at least quote the entire passage?

LITTLE RED RIDING HOOD:

The way is clear,

The light is good,

I have no fear,

Nor no one should.

The woods are just trees,

The trees are just wood.

I sort of hate to ask it,

But do you have a basket?

by Anonymousreply 193April 29, 2019 7:06 PM

r192, by any chance did you start this thread so that you could write "clunky" at regular intervals?

by Anonymousreply 194April 29, 2019 7:13 PM

R193/R194 - It's just my opinion. Take a deep breath and let it go.

by Anonymousreply 195April 29, 2019 7:29 PM

You're welcome to your opinion, r195, but your repetition of "clunky" is a bit annoying. Take a deep breath and use your other words.

by Anonymousreply 196April 29, 2019 7:34 PM

R196 - Clunky response.

by Anonymousreply 197April 29, 2019 7:37 PM

I've always found him to be a true master. Take Follies for instance - the book isn't great. There's some clever, fun, bitchy zingers here and there, but that's about all it is. It's almost like an episode of Dynasty or an old Joan Crawford movie or something, but the moment the characters sing, their inner lives come flying out and it's incredibly moving. All of a sudden, these people become real, flawed, interesting human beings with hidden desires and secrets they can't express. I always love how "In Buddy's Eyes" is written to sound like a big brag about how great Sally's life is, but the entire song is a lie. Sondheim always gives the actors something to play. "Everything's Coming Up Roses" is another great example of that. It sounds like your typical big Ethel Merman "park and bark" triumph song, but Rose is falling apart at that moment and trying to persuade herself that everything's going to be fine. Most lyricists and composers settle for the surface level, but Sondheim always digs deeper.

by Anonymousreply 198April 29, 2019 8:47 PM

I prefer Kander and Ebb.

by Anonymousreply 199April 29, 2019 9:06 PM

R199 "Funny Lady" is everyone's favorite film.

by Anonymousreply 200April 29, 2019 9:07 PM

"Take Follies for instance - the book isn't great"

Let me amend that: The book is arguably the greatest ever written for the American stage.

Astounding in conception and execution, it works on so many levels:

an examination on the recklessness and ruthlessness of youth and love; a meditation on time and its ravages; a critique of the American Dream; an entertaining overview of the entire history of American musical theatre; an exorcism of illusion, worthy of O'Neill or Albee; characters with whom anyone (certainly of middle years) can identify...

Who could ask for anything more?

by Anonymousreply 201April 29, 2019 9:15 PM

Sondheim's great, but he's no E. "Yip" Harburg.

"How about an elephant?"

"I'd wrap him up in cellophant!"

"What about a hippopotamus?"

"I'd thrash him from top to bottomus!"

Brilliant.

by Anonymousreply 202April 29, 2019 9:24 PM

[quote]Let me amend that: The book is arguably the greatest ever written for the American stage. Astounding in conception and execution, it works on so many levels: an examination on the recklessness and ruthlessness of youth and love; a meditation on time and its ravages; a critique of the American Dream; an entertaining overview of the entire history of American musical theatre; an exorcism of illusion, worthy of O'Neill or Albee; characters with whom anyone (certainly of middle years) can identify...Who could ask for anything more?

OK, Widow Goldman. The check is in the mail.

by Anonymousreply 203April 29, 2019 9:26 PM

R202 I bet you love "Brush Up Your Shakespeare"

by Anonymousreply 204April 29, 2019 9:36 PM

[quote]The problem with Bernadette in "Sunday In The Park" was that she was never a good actress to begin with

The problem with this comment is that it’s total shit. I’ve seen her be brilliant three times (Mack & Mabel, Sunday in the Park, and Gypsy which I saw late invthe run). She was excellent in Sally and Marsha and Into the Woods. She was very miscast in AGYG, but gave it her best. She was not so good in The Goodbye Girl, but was okay in Night Music and so-so in Follies. Oh. And then back to outstanding in Hello Dolly.

by Anonymousreply 205April 29, 2019 9:37 PM

Brush Up Your Shakespeare is a great song, but once you’ve heard it four or five times, you’re permanently over it.

by Anonymousreply 206April 29, 2019 9:39 PM

I saw Bernadette in "Gypsy" as well.

She CANNOT act. Period.

She also stank up "Follies", acting like a kewpie doll on Thorazine.

by Anonymousreply 207April 29, 2019 9:39 PM

[quote]The problem with this comment is that it’s total shit. I’ve seen her be brilliant three times (Mack & Mabel, Sunday in the Park, and Gypsy which I saw late invthe run).

Mrs. Lazarro, how are things in the old neighborhood? Your Bern has done well, hasn't she? But really, you do gush a bit too much.

by Anonymousreply 208April 29, 2019 9:39 PM

[quote]"Funny Lady" is everyone's favorite film.

Those ooglie-booglie feelings are gone!

by Anonymousreply 209April 29, 2019 9:41 PM

In the icebox You'll find in a can Some leftovers Of Moo Goo Gai Pan

Suck on that, Steve.

by Anonymousreply 210April 29, 2019 9:47 PM

R186 LOL!

by Anonymousreply 211April 29, 2019 9:52 PM

I thought there was talk about a remake of the movie "The Last of Sheila" a few years ago. (Talk about clever.) What happened?

by Anonymousreply 212April 29, 2019 10:23 PM
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by Anonymousreply 213April 29, 2019 10:31 PM

Who is that Seth Rudetsky wannabe?

by Anonymousreply 214April 29, 2019 10:35 PM

[quote]Sondheim's great, but he's no E. "Yip" Harburg.

D'accord.

I might be manishish or mouseish

I might be a fowl or fish,

But with thee I'm Eisenhowzish.

Please accept my propasish

You're under my skinish,

So please be give-inish

Or it's the beginish of the finish of me.

by Anonymousreply 215April 29, 2019 10:36 PM

E. Y was great for wordplay and social commentary, but when it comes to characterization and theatricality, SJS takes home the prize.

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by Anonymousreply 216April 29, 2019 10:46 PM

Sondheim and Legally Blonde. Sounds about right.

by Anonymousreply 217April 29, 2019 10:49 PM

R213, that man has one of the single most unpleasant voices I've ever heard in my life.

by Anonymousreply 218April 30, 2019 3:37 AM

I love Follies and think the concept is great and the script works great for the show, but I agree with the post that said it wouldn't be much without the music. The characters only become truly interesting when they start singing. A show like Gypsy for example could actually possibly still be interesting without a few of the songs. We learn about Rose, Louise, Herbie, etc. through dialogue as much as through song.

by Anonymousreply 219April 30, 2019 3:40 AM

Goldman's script for the original production of FOLLIES is brilliant. It's also dark and depressing and thrilling, but not entirely commercial, or possibly not well suited to its time, or possibly entirely too well suited to its time for anyone in the theater to be comfortable. It is so many things. But it was never intended to be a straight through narrative from which the songs could be removed. Not ever.

That is part of the brilliance of what Goldman and Sondheim and Prince and Michael Bennett and Boris Aronson created. Each aspect of the production worked with the others, was dependent on the others, was enhanced by the others. All these momentary scene fragments are happening more or less simultaneously. Carlotta is with one group at the party reminiscing about the FOLLIES while in another part of the the theater Phyllis and Sally are privaely sniping at one another and up above the ghosts watch it all.

It's all a jumble that comes pouring out at the audience, not a narrative. It's both the strength and a weakness of FOLLIES. It's a breath taking thing to attempt, but difficult to pull off. If the pace and the tension is not maintained, the audience can easily get lost. If the production loses them and they start searching for a narrative, they won't find one and they will never reconnect with the production.

by Anonymousreply 220April 30, 2019 1:25 PM

The problem with Follies is that no one can recreate the experience of the original. The book worked fine (maybe a bit ahead of it's time) It was surealistic but very funny and of course they can never get a cast who actually lived through that era(s) anymore. I'm very glad I got to see it (twice!)

by Anonymousreply 221April 30, 2019 1:38 PM

The cast AND the audience had lived through those times. That's another big part of what made the original unique. Everbody in the audience was just as much a part of this cultural nervous breakdown as was every actor on the stage and every character in the play. It was as if there was no fourth wall. Everyone was there reliving their own pasts. No wonder so many people disliked it as there was people who loved it.

The National Theater just proved that one can produce a very fine FOLLIES, but no one can reproduce that unique collective experience of the original production.

by Anonymousreply 222April 30, 2019 1:44 PM

I love the music of Follies. The problem is the book.

by Anonymousreply 223April 30, 2019 1:56 PM

If the music is good, it should speak for itself.

by Anonymousreply 224April 30, 2019 2:03 PM

And it does, r224.

by Anonymousreply 225April 30, 2019 2:20 PM

And when it speaks, R224, what precisely should it say?

We eagerly await your substantive reply.

by Anonymousreply 226April 30, 2019 2:26 PM

R226 - Calm down. Sondheim can exist without you defending him. You are not Sondheim. Take a deep breath.

by Anonymousreply 227April 30, 2019 2:28 PM

Calm down, R227. Sondheim requires no defending.

R224's post in its current form is meaningless. I've given him/her the opportunity to put some meat on its empty bones.

by Anonymousreply 228April 30, 2019 2:30 PM

R228 - Take your meds. Get out of the house more. Listen to some new music. You have so much to offer. Don't get stale.

by Anonymousreply 229April 30, 2019 2:32 PM

[quote]All these momentary scene fragments are happening more or less simultaneously. Carlotta is with one group at the party reminiscing about the FOLLIES while in another part of the the theater Phyllis and Sally are privaely sniping at one another and up above the ghosts watch it all.

I think the recent London revival handled this the best. The stage was on a turntable and so the audience understood that they were moving through different parts of the theater. Additionally, they added a "documentary crew" which followed Carlotta around. So some of the dialogue that didn't totally make sense in other productions was sharpened by Carlotta directing it towards the camera and interviewer.

And Josephine Barstow is the best Heidi ever. Her "One More Kiss" was the best I've ever seen that song performed, vocally as well as visually.

by Anonymousreply 230April 30, 2019 3:34 PM

For R193 and others... always refer back to a Forbidden Broadway parody...

The thoughts are clear

If un der stood

I have no peer

'Cause I'm so good.

The story's the star

The stars are just wood

I sort of hate to ask it

But what's a rhyme for basket?

by Anonymousreply 231April 30, 2019 4:20 PM

R231 - Brilliant.

by Anonymousreply 232April 30, 2019 4:38 PM

[quote] "Take Follies for instance - the book isn't great".... Let me amend that: The book is arguably the greatest ever written for the American stage.

Sigh. Sondheimites.

by Anonymousreply 233April 30, 2019 5:13 PM

[quote]I thought there was talk about a remake of the movie "The Last of Sheila" a few years ago. (Talk about clever.) What happened?

People watched it again and realized it was clunky.

by Anonymousreply 234April 30, 2019 5:14 PM

Send In The Clunk

by Anonymousreply 235April 30, 2019 5:28 PM

Clunky, clunky, clunky. If the SJWS wanna talk about white male privilege, he’s the epitome of it. Wealthy family, Hammerstein as his friend’s dad. Critics pushing him for years and audiences largely rejecting him. It’s a major case of The Emperor Has No Clothes.

If you’re gonna spend a hundred dollars at least for a theater ticket, people want a toe tapper. Not some pretentious, atonal nonsense that is only designed to show off how clever the lyricist thinks he is. NEXT!!!!

by Anonymousreply 236April 30, 2019 5:55 PM

The National Theatre Follies was the best I've ever seen. The addition of the documentary crew and turntable added so much. The Loveland wasn't quite grand enough, but for once, the book didn't feel like the weakest part of the show. It probably helped that they went back to, more or less, the original book.

by Anonymousreply 237April 30, 2019 6:03 PM

R236 - Well said!

by Anonymousreply 238April 30, 2019 6:13 PM

Your blather is not only ignorant (you don't have the first idea of what atonalism is) but meaningless, r236. Like it's Sondheim's fault that he was born into a wealthy family with connections or as if that has to do with anything. He networked like everyone else, created his own opportunities, and most important, worked his ass off. For the first 15 years of his career, Sondheim had more commercial than critical success., with WSS, GYPSY and FORUM. He was not only NOT pushed by critics, he was overlooked or dismissed. After the failures of WHISTLE and WALTZ, it's quite possible his Broadway career would have ended if not for his friendship with Prince and his subsequent breakout with COMPANY--and he was 40 when that happened. So much for privilege.

by Anonymousreply 239April 30, 2019 6:28 PM

Sondheim apologists are exhausting. But not as exhausting as a Sondheim musical.

by Anonymousreply 240April 30, 2019 6:32 PM

Oh please, R239. Don’t credit WSS, Gypsy, and Follies as success attributed to his talent. Those shows succeeded despite him, and clearly his poorer instincts were curbed by collaboration, which is why his later work is such transparent garbage. I’ll give the guy Sweeney Todd, even though I find it a very boring score. It is a legitimate success.

And his success was entirely dependent on his connections. Everyone is going to give Oscar Hammerstein’s protege a chance. All those rave reviews were written by people who thrived on glitterati hivemind, each one looking to each other for a reaction, and promoting a theatrical agenda in under to not look stupid or out of the loop. That’s why his shows would open to raves and then bomb with audiences almost immediately.

by Anonymousreply 241April 30, 2019 6:48 PM

NOT Follies, I meant Forum

by Anonymousreply 242April 30, 2019 6:48 PM

R241 - Well said.

by Anonymousreply 243April 30, 2019 6:52 PM

"Those shows succeeded despite him, and clearly his poorer instincts were curbed by collaboration, which is why his later work is such transparent garbage"..."Sweeney Todd, even though I find it a very boring score...is a legitimate success."

Nonsense compounding nonsense.

by Anonymousreply 244April 30, 2019 6:58 PM

You want exhausting? r236 is exhausting, exceeded only by r241, who is likely the same poster. No critic has ever "pushed" a Sondheim show, and the man didn't succeed because of Hammerstein. I think these posts sound jealous, petty, angry, and uninformed.

the sniping and flouncing will commence in five....four.....three.....

by Anonymousreply 245April 30, 2019 7:07 PM

Neither flounce nor snipe, ladies. SHUN R241. Isolate him. Don't respond.

Let him go spew his bile at All That Chat. Where he belongs.

by Anonymousreply 246April 30, 2019 8:15 PM

And then there was the Abbot/Who worshiped at my feet/And dressed me in a wimple and in veils/He made a proposition/Which I found rather sweet/And handed me a hammer and some nails./In time we lay contented/And he began again/By fingering the beads around our waists/I whispered to him then/"We'll have to say Amen"/For I had developed more Catholic tastes.

by Anonymousreply 247April 30, 2019 8:22 PM

Children Will Listen and Not While I'm Around are practically the same song. Did Sondheim recycle material? Or did she just run out of ideas?

by Anonymousreply 248April 30, 2019 8:43 PM

R248 You are deaf

by Anonymousreply 249April 30, 2019 8:55 PM

Come to think of it, most of her songs sound the same.

Was she ever nicknamed Songsaim?

by Anonymousreply 250April 30, 2019 9:04 PM

....and a jerk.

by Anonymousreply 251April 30, 2019 9:26 PM

EVERYBODY RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE!

CLUNKY! CLUNKY! CLUNKY! CLUNKY! CLUNKY! CLUNKY! CLUNKY! CLUNKY!

by Anonymousreply 252April 30, 2019 9:34 PM

I'm not saying Stephen Songsaim hasn't written any good songs. Au contraire. It's just that once you know her trick, it spoils the overall illusion.

by Anonymousreply 253April 30, 2019 9:44 PM

It’s his shtick

by Anonymousreply 254April 30, 2019 9:45 PM

Yeah, so clunky you're quoting it 50 years after the fact, r252.

"It’s his shtick"

No, dearest, it's his style. Listen to Beethoven or Wagner or Bernstein enough and you'll hear all their "tricks," too.

by Anonymousreply 255April 30, 2019 9:47 PM

Songsaim blue, everybody knows one.

by Anonymousreply 256April 30, 2019 9:49 PM
Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 257April 30, 2019 9:57 PM

You know the DL lives so long as SS provokes a cat fight.

by Anonymousreply 258April 30, 2019 10:08 PM

Whether you like his music or not, it is factually incorrect to call it "atonal."

This is a technical term that, like "tonal," relates to the organization of harmonic relationships of Western music.

It does not mean "music I don't like" or "music that seems to lack melody" or anything of the like.

And there has never been a Broadway musical that is atonal even in part. That word does not mean what you think it means.

by Anonymousreply 259May 1, 2019 6:23 AM

Yes, but this typefies many of the posts on this thread. People don't know what they're talking about, or they resort to endlessly repeating stupid insults. You don't like Sondheim's music and/or his lyrics? Fine--go start a Jerry Herman thread.

by Anonymousreply 260May 1, 2019 12:43 PM

[quote]You don't like Sondheim's music and/or his lyrics? Fine--go start a Jerry Herman thread.

Dude, this thread IS FOR people that don't like Sondheim too, hence the CLUNKY in the title.

by Anonymousreply 261May 2, 2019 12:20 AM

[quote]Whether you like his music or not, it is factually incorrect to call it "atonal."

Well except for the Letter Quintet in Sweeney where it was a deliberate homage to 12 Tone compositions (which are atonal).

by Anonymousreply 262May 2, 2019 12:21 AM

The Letter Quintet is an isolated instance. It doesn't change the face that people are using "atonal" incorrectly to mean "I don't hear melodies in this music."

The first twelve notes of the second act of Candide form a perfect tone row. That doesn't make Leonard Bernstein's music atonal.

This kind of logic chopping obscures the main point, which is about the meaning of a specific word that has been mis-applied to Sondheim since the 1970s. It degrades the language when the uneducated start throwing highfalutin words around to try to give a scholarly cover to their opinions.

by Anonymousreply 263May 2, 2019 2:10 AM

^^^change the fact, not change the face.

by Anonymousreply 264May 2, 2019 2:11 AM

You tell 'em, r263.

by Anonymousreply 265May 2, 2019 3:22 AM

Don't encourage him r265. He just might tell us again.

And again.

by Anonymousreply 266May 2, 2019 12:04 PM

You're a real queen, R266: smug and stupid.

by Anonymousreply 267May 2, 2019 1:41 PM

[quote] To rhyme a word like “silver”,

[quote]Or any rhyme-less rhyme,

[quote]Requires only will, ver-

[quote]Bosity and time.

That sure beats the hell out of "ambrosia" and "knows ya".

by Anonymousreply 268May 2, 2019 1:44 PM

[quote]EVERYBODY RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE! RISE!

I love Sondheim and have seen all of his shows, but I hate that part of the song.

It is, of course, made even worse when sung by a screeching harpy like Elaine Stritch.

by Anonymousreply 269May 2, 2019 2:41 PM

I'm not sure I'd even call the Letter Quintet atonal. Dense and chromatic, sure, but still tonal and conventionally harmonized.

Bernstein was a master of 12-tone rows that still landed appealingly (and excitingly) on the ear in such disparate works as CANDIDE (mentioned above), KADDISH, FANCY FREE, WEST SIDE STORY, etc.

by Anonymousreply 270May 2, 2019 3:00 PM

"To hold-a da clamp/Widout-a da cramp/Wid all dat saliva/It could-a drive-a/You crazy"

by Anonymousreply 271May 6, 2019 7:13 PM

The bird from the sea

Not knowing pine from bamboo

Roosts on anything

by Anonymousreply 272June 1, 2019 4:42 AM
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