It feels like conversion therapy for gay children, say clinicians

"It feels like conversion therapy for gay children," one male clinician said. "I frequently had cases where people started identifying as trans after months of horrendous bullying for being gay," he told The Times.

"Young lesbians considered at the bottom of the heap suddenly found they were really popular when they said they were trans."

Another female clinician said: "We heard a lot of homophobia which we felt nobody was challenging. A lot of the girls would come in and say, 'I'm not a lesbian. I fell in love with my best girl friend but then I went online and realised I'm not a lesbian, I'm a boy. Phew.' " The specialists expressed concern at how little confusion over sexuality was explored when a young person requested treatment to change their body. "I would ask who they wanted to have relationships with, but I was told by senior management that gender is completely separate to sex," a third female clinician said. "I couldn't get on board with that, because it isn't. Some people were transitioning their gender to match their sexuality."

The service said it was "a welcoming place for people from all sections of the LGBT community", adding that it had made exploration of sexuality a "more explicit" part of the assessment in response to staff concerns.

Nevertheless, the clinician said that her unease grew after meeting an adult woman whose transition to become a man involved having a double mastectomy. She had since changed her mind. "What can we do? We can't reverse that. Do we suggest fake breasts?" she said. "We have such a duty of care to these confused young adolescents, but I think we are failing them."

The clinic rejected the claims. "We always place a young person's wellbeing at the centre of our work," it said. "GIDS staff are engaged daily in thinking about the serious ethical dimensions of our practice. The diversity and complexity of individual cases will always be respected."

Several clinicians suspected that some of the "transgender" adolescents were reacting to homophobia at home.

"For some families, it was easier to say, this is a medical problem, 'here's my child, please fix them!' than dealing with a young, gay kid," the third female clinician said. At the service's "family days", a parent was allegedly heard saying that they didn't want their child to have gay friends because they "didn't want them mixed up in that hedonistic lifestyle". "It is converting people into heterosexuals," one of the clinicians said. "We had so many families who would talk about not wanting their daughters to be lesbian."Young people "repeatedly" confided their own "disgust" that they may be gay, according to the clinician.

In other cases, she felt young people had concluded they were trans because they didn't fit traditional gender roles.

"Children's bodies are being damaged in order to treat societal issues," she warned. She recalled a case of a 13-year-old child "whose parents were really pressurising us for puberty blockers". When the clinician refused to refer him, she claims one of the parents, a lawyer, wrote threatening legal letters to the service. The child was eventually referred for blockers.

Fucking hell! The parents need shooting.

She would have nightmares about her years at the Tavistock. "I would talk about it as an 'atrocity'. I know that sounds quite strong, but it felt as if we were part of something that people would look back on in the future, and ask, what were we thinking? In the future I think there will be lots and lots of de-transitioners who feel their bodies were mutilated as young people and who will ask, why did you let me do this? It is very disturbing."

Studies show that the vast majority of youngsters who begin puberty blockers go on to have irreversible hormone treatment at 16. Some go on to have gender reassignment surgery as adults.

All five clinicians expressed concern over how little young people and their families were being told about the impact of hormone treatment on fertility and sexual function as adults. One claimed young people were unable to give "informed consent" because it was regarded as taboo to discuss the impact of medical intervention on later sexual function in such a young cohort.

The clinic said there were no "taboo" subjects in its work, and that it did not "recognise this allegation as reflecting what happens in the service". It rejected allegations of conversion therapy and insisted that youngsters were being properly advised on the risks of and about what is unknown about medical intervention. Time and care was taken at every stage to ensure that individuals grasped the potential consequences of their choices, it said, adding that the service had become "increasingly aware" of the need to discuss the impact of treatment on future sexual function.

The GIDS's own internal review identified procedures around consent as an area of concern. It has recommended that written consent should be obtained before referral for blockers.

Another clinician described how youngsters entered his room enthusing about Alex Bertie, a transgender You-Tuber, and My Life: I Am Leo, a documentary about a transgender teen broadcast in a teatime slot on CBBC.

"These are very simplified stories about how easy it would be to transition into being trans… that transition is a solution to feeling shit. That is very appealing to lots of teenagers," the first male clinician said. I felt for the last two years what kept me in the job was the sense there was a huge number of children in danger and I was there to protect them from the service, from the inside."

One female clinician estimates that she referred about 50 young people for puberty blockers. She now believes she referred too many. Their outcomes remain unclear. "When you start them on puberty blockers, you're putting them on a pathway that could lead to sexual dysfunction problems and, for the younger kids, will definitely make them infertile. In what other specialism would physical intervention that leads to permanent change to the body be the first line of treatment for a vulnerable child? Activists will tell you it's unethical not to intervene. But we know that not everyone with gender dysphoria will go on to identify as trans for the rest of their lives."

One case has haunted her. "All the pushing was coming from the father to put the kid on puberty blockers. Thinking back on it now, I fear that the father was a paedophile and the child was being abused." There is no suggestion the service knowingly ignored the case, and the outcome is unknown.

The clinic, which is run by the Tavistock and Portman Foundation Trust and whose director is Polly Carmichael, says it is tracking the progress of 44 young people who began puberty blockers in 2011, and that all available evidence is discussed with families. "This is a rapidly developing field and psychosocial and medical professionals are working hard to ensure that we respond to emerging evidence in an appropriate and considered way," a spokesman said. The growing body of international evidence showed that "thus far, there is little reported evidence of harm," he added.

"The service undertakes careful assessments over time and continues to see young people whether or not they attend the endocrine clinic following this assessment," the spokesman said.

The clinic said it was aware of concerns and tensions between different perspectives raised by staff and "clinicians have a duty of care to raise safeguarding concerns", adding that there were "safe spaces" and structures in place for staff to discuss anything that worried them. It would not comment on specific cases but stressed that a young person's motivations and choices were discussed at each step.

What began in 1989 as a specialist clinic for gender issues is now under intense scrutiny. A report by David Bell, a former governor at the trust, revealed ethical concerns over "woefully inadequate care". Staff were furious with the GIDS executive's response to the report, which stated that its own review found no safeguarding concerns.

The whole service should have been halted when the number of "transgender" cases first exploded, one of the clinicians said. "That's the point we should have stopped because we didn't know what we were doing. Are we a service for kids with gender dysphoria, a medical disorder? Or are we a service for 'transgender kids'?" A GIDS spokesman said: "We are aware of tensions between different perspectives. These differences are inevitable in such complex work."

One clinician said it was understandable if her former employer was defensive, saying: "If they are getting it wrong, you have to ask, are they making kids infertile by mistake? Because if they are to truly acknowledge [our concerns], then they will have to ask themselves, what the f*** have we done to thousands of children?"

"In the future I think there will be lots and lots of de-transitioners who feel their bodies were mutilated as young people"

Fuck these people. And fuck the society that spawned them.

The sad thing is there was nothing wrong with these kids. Now, among other things, they are infertile and have mutilated genitals.

OP, TAKE YOUR MEDICATION. We get it. You have never taken a science class, you can't read a peer reviewed article. You don't understand that human rights are for all people. You truly do not understand that stripping people of their human rights because of their sexuality doesn't work for gay people. We get that you are science illiterate (that's a compound noun, so yes, it is correct). We get it. Now take your meds

The females who are succumbing are because of sexism, the men because of homophobia.

That's so fucking horrifying about the father and the puberty blockers. There's something very disturbing about any parent that doesn't want their kid to go through puberty.

Look at EJ Johnson. If he had the wrong set of parents he would have been easily classified as "transgender".

The first order of business at these clinics should be identifying homophobia in the parents. But probably some of these clinicians are homophobic, too.

R9, unfortunately, I think these parents are homophobic, think their kid is gay and immediately visualize them having gay sex and will do anything to avoid their kid doing it. Look what they did to Jazz.

R7

Trans has nothing to do with science. There is no scientific proof that men can have female brains. The only scientific evidence about trans that actually exists (vs. being concocted by morons like you who let made-up "rights" trump actual human rights) is that the vast majority are mentally ill and a large minority are fetishists.

No one has the right not to be offended. No one has a right to make other people lie to them to make them feel good about themselves. What we all have is a right to freedom of speech, thought, and association, and moronic cretins like you will annihilate all of our actual rights to serve the delusions of 1 percent of the population.

Do fuck off. Thanks.

It's been conclusively proven that there are no observable differences between male and female brains. Repeatedly.

Trans ideology is completely contrary to common sense.

"It's paywalled, so no link"

Yes, I'm sure that's the reason you didn't provide a link.

Again, another right wing troll farm dolt trying to sow dissent within the LGBT community.

Send that to the chick who declared that because I'm gay I have a woman's brain to all of my coworkers after she arrived late to her shift, R13?

er period instead of question mark.

R15, here is the link. Don't know what you are getting at with your comment. As pointed out by the other poster, it is pay walled.

R15 you can read it yourself if you put in your email.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

This is an epidemic. The problem is that there must be a support treatment for children who may be gay and their families extending into schools. If the choice is trans=attention and treatment vs not trans = dismissed, it would partially explain the choices.

The day will come when these abused kids will start calling out the trans people who encouraged this atrocity.

[quote] another right wing troll

It's only "right" in the sense that "right" means "correct."

Most people are still asleep, but when they wake up, there's going to be hell to pay. Parents all over the place and across the political spectrum are pissed off that their kids are being taught lgbTQ in school, which is mostly transgender propaganda.

The reading of "I AM JAZZ" to kids under 5 is just crazy.

Kudos to the posters on the DL who started to warn about this years ago.

OP (me) is no right-wing troll. I'm in academia, actually, and a proud liberal.

After the 80s epidemic of "recovered memories" of alleged sexual abuse and imaginary satanic rituals, patients who were victimized by their therapists who bought into that fad and persuaded them they were victims ended up suing the pants off the therapists and the clinics who promoted that foolishness. They destroyed lives and families, and eventually paid the price professionally.

Those of us who lived through that hysteria recognize another social contagion/fad when it erupts. Sure, there are people who feel more like themselves when they lives as members of the opposite sex. More power to them. But there's a difference between "living as the opposite sex" and "literally are the opposite sex". The first recognizes and conforms to reality, the second does not.

Teenage fads come and go. This one is especially pernicious because it promotes irreversible and potentially serious changes via drugs or surgery. If they wish to live as the opposite sex, let them live as that and become accustomed to it, while they wait to reach their majority, when they can either give informed consent for the treatment, or change their minds (as teens are wont to do.)

That's a sensible compromise - but the hysterics will have none of it.

It is conversion for gay kids. Just conversion: nothing therapeutic about it.

The UK journalists are on fire - friggin' standing up to the Trans Lobby the way the craven, xerox-machines that call itself the "media" in the US would never do.

Anyone have Ari Shapiro's email address? All of this needs to get to "All Things Transgender" ASAP.

[quote] It is now ‘transphobic’ to report doctors’ fears about trans’ children’s health

The U.S. media sucks. What will end this nightmare here are lawsuits. Victims with mutilated genitals and chemically-altered bodies suing their parents, doctors, pharmaceutical companies, trans organizations and individual trans people.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Finally people are speaking out. Imagine if these "trans" kids had parents who sat them down and said "You know it's ok if you're gay? We still love you. Sometimes boys like dolls and girls like sports. We just want you to be happy."

We went over this this morning in the last anti trans post from OP. Lets start with some scholarly articles from WHO.

Pick any peer reviewed article you want. Start with these. The science is real.

And look heres what the American Pediatric Association says about trans children

And look here, why its another peer reviewed article about transgender and genes.

Not for you, OP, we know you only did grammar school biology.

The people from WHO will also have to answer. They'll all be outed and the money trail will be investigated.

I could post peer-reviewed articles that expose the dangers of puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones and how this sudden rise in kids declaring themselves transgender is basically a fad affecting gay kids, and kids with other stressors and/or mental health issues.

Either you're a paid shill of the incredibly well-funded Transgender Lobby (using money corporations think they're giving to gay rights organizations), R30. or a gay-hating idiot, or both.

I love it. "All the scientists, and doctors are wrong "

R34, I'm someone with access to google.

I can google WHO transgender.

I can google AMA transgender.

But I hear you "all the scientists are wrong. That's not what I learned on 8chan."

Fucking morons

R35 does sound like a gayhater, doesn't they?

Even if you were right R32, how does that contradict anything said by the actual doctors who actually worked in the only NHS gendered clinic for children in Britain (before they resigned in disgust).? Or are you just sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting 'lalala' because you're too invested in your faux-progressive woke identity and can't cope with the cognitive dissonance?

That wasn't a rhetorical question, I would like an answer. I'm assuming you've actually read the article have you?

And R34 didn't say 'all the scientists and doctors are wrong' - they pretty much said the opposite - referring to peer reviewed and scientific articles. How many doctors are answering questions on 'AMA transgender'?

Talking of doctors being right, what of the doctors cited in the article above, yes?

This is very, very disturbing. But, I don't think it's because the parents are homophobic or sexist. A good friend is the mother of four. She's amazing! Great person, better mother. One of her daughters (now 14 years old) is very tomboy-ish. Sort of like Angie and Brad's girl. Loves dressing like her brothers. Short hair. All that jazz.

My friend, for years, was sure she was trans. And she wanted to be a good mom - and who wouldn't? - so she read all the literature out there, had talks with her daughter, made sure her daughter received all the love and support, etc. She was ready to start the trans route. With her then 11 year old. Again, the very best of intentions...

It's took me many long talks to finally convince her that she needed to let her daughter play around with gender roles WITHOUT medical intervention. Let her at least go through puberty for chrissakes! Well, it worked. And now her daughter has come out as gay with no desire to trans.

How many other parents, who don't have a big homo in their life like me, went the same route as my friend nearly did?

The whole system is fucked.

I think the reasons really vary R39 - your friend, like many well intentioned parent seemed to get caught up in the narrative that was available to her, which is how people make sense of their lives and what happens around them. I'm pretty sure my mum would have done the same if the situation had been the same when I was growing up (thankfully it wasn't), but she would have brought some skepticism to it because I thinks she would have instinctively felt that such extreme medical intervention wasn't right, but again, it was very different 25 years ago in this regard too.

One of the doctors quote indicated that at least some of the families were influenced by homophobia, but again this can also be conscious or unconscious - your assumptions about the world guide how you perceive it don't they? so homophobia may be so deeply rooted as to shape reactions in a way they're not even consciously aware of.

R38, R37, let me repeat, you can google. You can read the science for yourselves.

And listen carefully, you heterosexual, virginal teenagers posting in this thread.

Human rights are not in limited supply. civil and human rights apply to all people. The minute you decide some people aren't human enough, due to their sexuality, to be part of the community of humanity, you have put gay people at risk.

Do you actually think the bigots in charge of this administration will take the time to decide you have the "ok" sort of sexuality because you're gay and not trans? Every time you deny a person their sexuality, you make it that much easier for them to deny us ours.

But do you, little gaylings.

About 10-15 years ago wasn't hormone therapy a big thing for pre and post menopausal women until it came out that these therapies were causing cancer. Lupron for cancer treatment was always recommended by doctors to be for temporary usage for adults. Why is being marketed as being safe for children.

R35 where are the peer reviewed studies that biological men have no advantage in women's sports. The top varsity high school boys in track and field easily break womens world records. In Australia, a under 15 club team beat the women's national team. Martina herself said that at 21-22 she was BARELY able to beat a 44-45 year old Renee Richards. Richards herself has said if she transitioned in her early 20's she would've dominated the WTA during a era where some of the all time greats were playing.

Where are the peer reviewed studies that state that long term/lifetime testosterone or steroid use has no side effects.

The optics themselves are a disaster. A man who had no surgical intervention but put on a wig, tights, makeup and carries a hello kitty purse qualified for the Boston Marathon as a woman.

Transgender isn't a sexuality R41. The transgender person who is at the center of the Planet Fitness lawsuit is an obvious autogynephile who it turned out had numerous profiles on sissy fetish porn websites. As much as people made fun of Stefonknee, she was actually taken seriously, profiled on a mainstream LGBT news outlet and held positions of power in LGBT organizations in Canada all while claiming to be a six year old girl who met her "mummy and daddy" on a fetish website and who bragged about her "daddy" fucking her and then saying she plays with their grandchildren.

Ding Ding Ding! Here it is the transtapo's favourite word bigot. The only bigot here is you R[41] Definition of bigot 'a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions' Take your hormones and chill the fuck out.

Their other favourite words are: Russian troll, Republican and Trump lover. Dissenting opinions are not allowed; the T's are now feral.

Did someone refer to being T as a "sexuality"? LMAO some of you people are really just caricatures. This whole thing jumped the shark a while ago but they just keep going. The T's should move to strict muslim countries where they'd be loved. They're supportive of gays becoming T's because...homophobia.

You really sound like you're panicking now R41, because people are hearing the truth and not liking it.

And you still haven't read the article have you dear? I don't know who your calling 'bigots' because the people in the article are doctors who are writing about the treatment given to children in the only NHS funded clinic in Britain. The one they worked at until recently. I explained all this in the last comment remember? - and you would know even more if you read the article. It's what this damn thread is about, and you clearly haven't read it. You're just having a strop because other people have.

Also 'this administration', which administration? America? we're talking about a British article about a British clinic on this thread, are you lost?

You seem to be a homophobic (heterosexual) male who identifies as trans, probably young too I imagine, judging by the fact that you throw around the insult 'teenage virgin' and then sign off with the homophobic 'gaylings'.

Please go away and let the adults talk. Or stay and read the damn article.

You're shouting at people about 'trans rights' (put in inverted commas because it's literally an article about child protection issues) and you clearly don't give a fuck about young gay kids.

Yea the fact that R41 referred to it as a sexuality does ring alarm bells I have to admit. I'm really not saying that they are a fetishist, but that's clearly a possibility.

I can’t believe a mental health professional is coming out publicly with saying this. I can’t even say this privately even though I feel exactly the same way after treated children as young as 11 for being self-identified trans. I was accused of being transphobic by my colleagues when I brought up same points as the article.

That's awful R49. I'm so glad I'm not currently in a job where I have to deal with things like that, it must be absolute hell. I've never known as issue like this where people are making professionals terrified of actually safeguarding children, and terrorizing hordes of people into keeping quiet and denying what is right before their eyes.

This has to end at some point, maybe this is the start? things are starting to get better I think in terms of people speaking out. But the fear is well justified, I read about a campaign of terrible harassment against one woman who spoke up, including someone signing her 9 year old daughter up to a transgender porn site, signing her up for a child abuse site on the dark web, and making allegations to the police that her children were being abused. Truly depraved stuff, among many other things.

Kiwi Farms has whole sections on various prominent trannies (they call them "troons" or "rat kings") including ol' Wax My Balls, the Ogre, Cyclopath, Clymer, DL Fave, Zinnia and the one who posts pictures of himself with an assault rifle threatening to hunt "TERFS"

The posters on KF are self-admitted obsessives, but they provide a lot of information (and laughs) about some of the most loony trannies.

R51 Kiwifarms are pretty despicable, "asbestos eyeballs" doesn't do them justice... just a heads up for anyone who heads that way.

They do have information unavailable elsewhere.

Off topic, but speaking of Kiwi Farms; I wonder what ever happened to Bunnika.

Yeah, but Kiwi Farms is hilarious, and they do not hold back when they go after "troons" : they call out all the lunatics' bullshit that the rest of society can't because "transphobe."

I'd rather have the brutal honesty, take-no-prisoners of Kiwi Farms than the Woke Bro misogyny of the Trans-loving VICE or VOX or SLATE or SALON or Jezebel or the NYT or...

r35 Thanks for the information. At first, I was very upset that a father in the UK pressured this clinic to give his child puberty blockers so that he could molest his young victim for longer, but thanks to your completely unrelated-to-the-article links, I'm now not worried that the child is likely still being molested by a trusted loved one.

Conspiracy theorists have been accusing Tavistock of being involved in mind control and forcing social change for years. When I read in the initial posts that the clinic involved is a Tavistock clinic, that's what made me go Oh Shit. I'm not a conspiracy theorist (well, maybe a tiny bit once in a while) but when I read that Tavistock is trying to force social change.....

Google it. It's something of a rabbit hole.

R56 Are you referring to this book?

Interesting that the spanish language reviews are all negative.

It's official!

The father of the 4yo tarns has now made his twitter private.

Don't tell me he's shocked that people are disgusted by this? Wow, some of these fuckers really do live in a hugbox. This is reprehensible though. I can't wait till these kids grow up to either kill or sue their parents.

Yes, r57. But there is a lot more out there. I never regarded it as anything other than another dumb internet conspiracy theory until now. I guess I still don't. But it made me take notice and, I guess, laugh for recognizing the name and the old rumors.

More articles dropping this morning

Another

No child turns up at the Tavistock and Portman Trust’s Gender Identity Development Service on a whim. It is hard to imagine the anxiety and anguish that will have brought them and their families to the doors of the NHS’s only specialist clinic treating young people with gender dysphoria. Many will have spent months or years in consultations with their GP before getting a referral, only to wait many more months for an appointment. Many are likely to be suffering mental illnesses and some may be at significant risk of self-harm. At a time when demand for GIDS’s services has exploded from 94 in 2010 to more than 2,500 last year, the clinic is forced to confront ethical dilemmas as complex as any in modern medicine.

That makes it all the more important that its decisions are taken within the context of a clear framework in which ethical concerns can be fully aired. Yet The Times’s reporting on the concerns of five former clinicians who have resigned from GIDS raises important questions about its practices. They accuse the clinic of being too quick to dispense hormone blockers to pubescent children and to prescribe irreversible hormone treatments to children over 16. They fear that in its rush to medicate, GIDS is ignoring complex histories, including mental health difficulties, abuse and family trauma, as well as adolescent confusion over possible homosexuality. They accuse the clinic of “experimenting” with children by prescribing treatments for which there is little evidential support and whose long-term side-effects may include sexual dysfunction and fertility loss.

These are serious charges. The sharp rise in referrals in recent years certainly raises questions about the role of broader societal issues. The five clinicians to whom The Times has spoken worry that not enough attention is being given to the possibility that some children identifying as trans may be suffering from confusion over their sexuality. They argue that some adolescents find it easier to identify as trans than as gay and are being encouraged to identify as trans by lobby groups and anxious parents looking for medical explanations for their children’s condition. One clinician says that the clinic’s propensity to medicate amounts to a form of “conversion therapy” and fears the consequences when some patients want to de-transition in future.

The Tavistock insists its service is safe and that it places the young person’s wellbeing at the centre of its work. It says its staff are “engaged daily in thinking about the serious ethical dimensions of our practice” and that “its psychosocial and medical professionals are working hard to ensure that we respond to emerging evidence in an appropriate and considered way”. It adds that “thus far, there is little reported evidence of harm”.

Nonetheless, this is not the first time concerns have surfaced. Last year a group of parents of transgender children wrote to the board of the trust that oversees the clinic alleging that GIDS was “fast-tracking” children into life-altering decisions. A governor resigned this year, accusing the board of ignoring a damning internal report. Meanwhile, an internal action plan published last month acknowledged the need for more robust mechanisms for “hearing and, most notably, resolving points of concern raised by staff” and the need to be “curious about changes in the societal and evi- dential context in which [the clinic] operates”. The Tavistock has responded to these calls for change.

The bigger questions, however, are for the NHS. It cannot be right that policies relating to physical interventions in children with such far-reaching consequences should be left to GIDS. In other contentious areas of care, the NHS takes a hands-on approach to setting protocols, gathering evidence and monitoring compliance. A similar approach is needed towards gender dysphoria, if only to guard against the risk that well-intentioned efforts to ease suffering today give rise to greater suffering in future.

New guidelines for the treatment of young people with gender identity issues are to be drawn up by the Royal College of Psychiatrists.

The college, which sets professional standards, said that it was talking to paediatric specialists about producing its first guide to such treatment to deal with a rising number of cases and controversies.

The college said that local child mental health services needed to improve how they dealt with young people questioning their gender identity as not all of them required specialist care. It said that there was “no blanket approach” to tackling children’s gender identity.

The Times reported the concerns of former gender clinicians yesterday The Times reported the concerns of former gender clinicians yesterday The Times reported yesterday that five clinicians who quit the only NHS gender clinic for children had raised fears about its treatment of vulnerable patients. Their concerns included the need for better evidence for the use of hormone blockers to delay puberty.

The Department of Health is understood to be considering a review into the NHS treatment of gender issues but ministers declined to respond directly to concerns raised about the Gender Identity Development Service (Gids), saying that they were a matter for the clinic and inspectors.

Experts say that there has been a global surge in young people presenting to gender clinics. This mirrors the huge rise in referrals to the Gids, up from 94 to 2,519 since 2010.

James Barrett, president of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists, said: “It seems to be a global phenomenon at more or less the same rate and more or less everywhere.”

In the US there are 40 clinics offering hormone therapy to children, a decade after it was first offered there.

Bernadka Dubicka, chairwoman of the child and adolescent faculty at the Royal College of Psychiatrists, acknowledged the need for clear guidelines for good practice. “Working in child mental health is complex and this area is particularly complex,” she said. “Usually there is no right or wrong immediate answer.”

Young people’s gender identity could be “fluid” and each child needed thorough assessment by senior clinicians, she said. “There is no blanket approach to any one young person, it’s got to be a clinical judgment. Part of the problem is the lack of research evidence so we are more reliant on clinical experience.

“We are talking about developing guidelines but the answers aren’t straightforward . . . we need more research in this area across the board.”

After concerns that some mental health services were reluctant to help children with gender issues and preferred to refer them to Gids, Dr Dubicka said she wanted local services to be trained to do more. “There will be a lot of young people who have concerns or worry about their identity but those concerns might not need specialist treatment,” she said.

A review by the Tavistock and Portman NHS trust, which runs the Gids, has acknowledged the need for a more rigorous consent process for children considering hormone blocking. The trust says that concerns raised by staff have been properly investigated and there are no immediate safety issues but it has committed to a 26-point plan to deal with unjustified variation in treatment because of its rapid growth.

NHS England said: “The NHS’s approach needs to be clinically led but based on consideration of all available research evidence, international standards and public consultation.”

R62 You mean there were no fucking guidelines untill now?

The guidelines have been coming from Mermaids and Stonewall, R66.

This whole thing needs to be looked at much more closely, but any attempts at debate or research are quickly closed down. I don't think they're going to get away with this one though. It's out in the open now and the public are not standing for it.

R66

Lobby groups like Mermaids have been heavily involved in writing previous guidelines. This is a quote from the linked article

Susie Green’s experience of helping her daughter change genders led her to become one of the most active champions of trans-rights, an issue which is growing in social and political salience and attracting more than its fair share of controversy as a result. She is currently involved in writing care guidelines for prepubescent children as a member of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health.

What is deeply concerning about this is that Green's professional background is in IT not healthcare and especially not mental healthcare. Her qualifications to be writing policy are totally subjective and driven only by the fact she took her own child abroad for drug treatment and SRS because they were too underage to receive those treatments in the UK. The country that did the SRS on her child (on their 16th birthday) actually changed their laws to over 18 following what Green did.

This is a woman on a mission to convince the world what she did was morally and lawfully right because it's totally irreversible and I don't imagine she can allow herself a moment of doubt to creep in. Like all zealots her need to be right and recruit other true believers is put above everything else including child welfare. She is not someone who should be involved in writing healthcare guidelines for pre-pubescent children.

"Puberty blocker use threatens the maturation of the adolescent mind. Puberty plays a key role in structural brain development and its delayed timing can be linked with an increase in adverse health-related behaviours and in mental health status during adolescence. It is misleading to suggest that puberty blockers are reversible. Going through a developmental process at age 20 that should take place at age 10 is not the same thing."

No wonder then, that so many " trans kids" have Borderline Personality Disorder. They've never matured mentally beyond 8 or 9 years old.

These doctors/parents are deliberately brain damaging their children.

I agree that Susie Green has a need to validate what she did, and she also, like Jazz's mum, has made a career out of the whole thing. These people have created an industry around this that must be paying a good few wages.

Boy: "Mommy, if my wee-wee gets hard when I see a naked man- does that mean I'm a girl?"

Mommy: "Yes, dear. We'll get you on hormones then schedule you for surgery. We're not having any homosexuals in the family".

Quite apart from having zero training R68, I would have thought what she did to her child would make her uniquely unqualified to write any guidance for parents.

T is a mental illness

R39, just curious, but why do you think your friend defaulted to thinking her daughter was trans instead of a much more statistically likely lesbian?

I don't think your friend is a raging homophobe but I do wonder if more educated parents have trouble recognizing their own internal homophobia. I just find it odd they attach so strongly to the trans label when it is supposed to be a super rare condition.

Also, R39, sometimes I notice people can be fine with guys but it it is their own child it is a different story. Because for some parents they can't help but see their children as an extension of themselves.

For example, who would have thought gay-friendly Cher would have had trouble with a gay daughter?

^fine with gays ^but if it is their own

This trans movement is starting to scare the shit out of me.

R39 your well-meaning friend is the exact type of parent that needs to be analyzed by a professional for hidden homophobia. If it could be identified and brought out into the open, your friend wouldn't be having trans discussions with her tomboy daughter.

The Times UK is a Rupert Murdoch rag.

Lucy Bannerman spends a lot of time on Twitter doing the standard anti-trans trolling thing, focusing on Mermaids a la Graham Linehan.

The clinicians are not named. One says she gave puberty blockers to a girl that she now thinks was being raped by her pedo father. So... I mean, am I crazy to wonder why she didn't do anything at the time? SHE is the one who fucked up there. Either she knew the girl was being raped and did nothing and now regrets it, or she's gone a little off and retroactively added a false pedo claim to her current concerns.

No one bothers to mention whether she's contacted the clinic or even social services about the possible abuse.

Anyway, I expect more than anonymous gossip on a right-wing rag as proof of anything. This thread is just a carbon copy of the Reddit GenderCritical thread, anyway.

[quote]The only scientific evidence about trans that actually exists (vs. being concocted by morons like you who let made-up "rights" trump actual human rights) is that the vast majority are mentally ill and a large minority are fetishists.

List those peer-reviewed articles with scientific proof that most trans are just mentally ill fetishists, please. Don't need to link, just the authors and/or titles are fine. Thanks.

Ayiff ah could turn back Tiiiime!

[quote]The clinicians are not named.

Can you blame them?

[quote]I can't wait till these kids grow up to either kill or sue their parents.

[quote]The parents need shooting.

[quote]She was a con artist who couldn't operate without a dick in her.

[quote]Kiwi Farms is hilarious, and they do not hold back when they go after "troons"

[quote]Boy: "Mommy, if my wee-wee gets hard when I see a naked man

[quote]Conspiracy theorists have been accusing Tavistock of being involved in mind control and forcing social change for years. When I read in the initial posts that the clinic involved is a Tavistock clinic, that's what made me go Oh Shit. I'm not a conspiracy theorist (well, maybe a tiny bit once in a while) but when I read that Tavistock is trying to force social change.....

You people need some fucking help.

R84 They need less help than anyone who thinks they're the ones who need help.

I'm sure the troll at R41 had their comment crossed out earlier but now it's clear. Wonder what happened there?

This is the type of stuff Mermaids use in their training sessions, trying to link masculinity and femininity to biological sex.

A boy with a penis who likes ballet, dolls and Disney musicals needs assistance.

A girl with a vagina who likes cars, science, sport and prefers trousers needs assistance.

It's reverting to ridiculous 1950s stereotypes where the men fly the planes and the women serve the drinks.

R87 "Barbie and GI Joe"??? Fucking Seriously? How did we get here? I thought we were past this bullshit.

What if, like me, you were raised by Anthroposophists and went to a Steiner school? No plastic toys or gendered anything, not even clothes.

Is that environment oppressive to trans kids or do trans kids, in fact, not exist in an environment where gender isn't a huge fucking deal?

My friend is definitely NOT homophobic - latent or otherwise. Her daughter expressed the desire to be a boy in action and word. As do MOST gay children (I did!) for at least some period of time during their development. So the only info my friend had, on her own, was:

My daughter seems to want to be a boy. Great! I'm liberal. I'm an LGBTXXOO ally. She must be trans!

If this had occurred ten, fifteen years ago? She just would have assumed it was a stage or that her daughter was a budding bull dyke. And she would have been fine with that!

Remember, most straight progressives think trans is a good thing. Hell, I did for most of my life. And, for the most part, still do. The constructive criticism is just now surfacing and, as well all know, is getting tons of backlash in the Almighty Church of Twitter.

I do believe, once "wokeness" also includes critical thinking, common sense, and, you know, not plying your children with hormones, drugs, et al, that their young bodies shouldn't be dealing with, this cult will shrink. It so reminds me of how, during the 80s, everyone (including my mom) was diagnosed with Multiple Personality Disorder. Like gender dysmorphia, a real things, but very, very, very, very, very rare condition. Once people realized that it was just the trendy du jour disease, it went back in the shadows.

Are any American media (gay or mainstream) outlets reporting on this?

Told y’all....but you didn’t listen...you said that I was being anti transgender...

R87 I used to play with Both Barbie's and GI Joe's.

That's fucking disgusting R87. people who think that are girl who doesn't do ballet in pink dresses and boys who don't aspire to be GI Joe are not 'really' a girl or a boy is warped. It is also deeply homophobic, which seems to have passed under most people's radar for a long time.

And I hope you identified as a non-binary trans-person while doing it R93?

As I'm still banned from Twitter (I refuse to take down a tweet that says biological sex cannot be changed), I'm curious how this is being received by the unhinged activists there...?

Biology is a "social construct" R96.

I guarantee that when the backlash starts in earnest, the radical feminists and gay men who have been speaking out against this for YEARS will get no credit.

Definitely R98, everyone who shouted down or insulted someone who was speaking the truth will conveniently forget about it and pretend they were on the right side all along.

I wonder how we retake the big "gay rights" organizations when the time comes. Will they same people be in charge of them? Will Human Rights Campaign, et al. go out of business and be replaced by something else. The Southern Poverty Law Center (not a gay organization) is an example of an large important organization which is imploding and may just go out of business. I sort of hope our's do as well since I would not trust the present leadership and staff of the ones we have now.

I don't think anything will be done about this until the mutilated children themselves start to voice their regrets and anger. So sit back and wait 10 years or so. If you think the powerful trans lobby will allow anyone to speak the truth, you are sadly naive and delusional.

R100 I think we need to begin replacement groups locally, to start, and do what we can to cut off their funding.

SPLC is a scam, it's a front set up by a huckster who knew how to suck money out of well intended liberals.

I started to examine them more closely when they categorized orgs that were critical of trans ideology as hate groups. Never giving them a dime again.

R45, they also call us “queer”...even though it is dehumanizing & we don’t want to be called queer.

I don't think it'll take ten years for a significant number of kids to start speaking out about trans regret, R101. Maybe five.

I'm R49, this topic touches a nerve for me because I work in the field. A few response before I give my own experiences/ opinions.

R50, yes it does disturb me tremendously that we mental health professionals should just take the child's/ parents' words at face value instead of doing further assessment to gain a better clinical picture of a very complex issue, one that's partly influenced by sociopolitical climate today.

R90, I agree with the point about MPD and the over-diagnosing of it in the past. Hopefully the over-diagnosis of gender dysphoria will be dialed back once we (society, mental health/ medical professionals) begin to take a second look at it without the threat of being labeled as transphobic.

R66, there are guidelines that are formulated by professional governing bodies (American Psychiatric Association and American Psychological Association). However, understand that guidelines are not the same thing as standards of practice. Treatment guidelines tend to more aspirational (e.g. in the perfect world) while standards of practice may vary among institutions. The institution in question (according to the article) has an aggressive approach to the diagnosis and treatment of children with supposed gender dysmorphia. I'd venture to guess as an extension of that, the clinic has partnered with endocrinologists who have equally aggressive, experimental approach to hormone blockers in the pediatric population. Psychologists can diagnose mental health conditions such as gender dysphoria, but they cannot prescribe medications including hormone blockers. Psychiatrists/ NPs can both diagnose and prescribe but in these cases we consult with pediatric endocrinologists/ endocrinologists to develop individualized treatment plans.

My background: master's in/ certified as family nurse practitioner; 3 more years getting doctorate as psychiatric mental health nurse practitioner (DNP-PMHNP) now also certified in psych; total of 5 years postgraduate study/ 7 years of clinical practice as both FNP and DNP-PMHNP. Part-time position as FNP but do most of my work in the mental health setting. I'd noticed a trend for young adults/ teens/ children to identify as transgender about 7-8 years ago.

Most of these patients that I'd dealt with also had concomitant psychiatric condition(s) along with self-identified gender dysphoria. It isn't out of the norm for individuals with severe emotional/ mental health issues to identify with "trendiest" condition of the day, case in point the trend of people who claimed to be victims of satanic cults in the '80s. Being transgender is trendy today, no other way to put it. I've come across trans patients (pediatric to adults) who are pretty messed up, with/ without being on hormone blockers, because they really aren't capable of making informed decisions based upon factors such as impaired cognition, intellectual development, or mental health condition. Once treated a man in his late teens with complex psych history who within a couple years time had identified as trans, even though there was nothing in his history that indicated this important development. He was quickly put on hormones, developed breasts and other feminizing features. Went on great for a few years before his other mental health worsened and other medical problems surfaced which were related to hormone therapy. Another boy was only 10-11 years-old but had identified as trans and put on hormone blockers. I was more concerned with the fact that he had a preoccupation with having sex/ boyfriends at his age than anything else, if he'd been a cisgender child we'd be suspicious of potential abuse. But the fact that he identified as trans, all professional/ clinical judgment don't get applied because we're supposed to hone in on treating his gender dysphoria.

Really disgusted at the acceptable narrative today regarding transgenderism/ gender dysphoria, it doesn't account for biological, medical, and psychological facts but is instead all based upon emotions.

To the people bringing up peer reviewed articles to support their position on transgenderedism, have you not been following the scandals about the entire academic journal industry over the last several years? There are lower level journals that publish anything, as long as you pay them. Other journals won't publish anything that might "offend" certain groups. Even the major journals regularly publish articles that have to be retracted because they do not meet basic standards.

Many are already speaking out but at the moment their voices are dismissed and quashed, probably because they are mostly young women at the moment.

Research into detransitioning is being blocked currently because it's deemed transphobic.

It will snowball eventually and there will be a tipping point.but it will probably take class action lawsuits for a lot of people to take notice and rethink.

Great post R106

r106 that is chilling. Can you think of any other disorder where patients have basically turned the tables, and now control therapists?

Why is the profession so spineless? I don't mean to sound harsh but what would you be afraid of in neglecting to investigate a sexually precocious 10 year old? As you know that usually means one thing. Are there legal penalties for not shepherding GNC kids through transitioning that are worse than not reporting sexual abuse of children?

Please help me understand.

Everyone is so spineless about "transphobia" because the Transgender Lobby (and it is a lobby) uses the hard work and good will of decades of gay activism as its sword and shield.

And, via its complete infiltration into the leadership of formerly gay organizations, it uses the money corporations donate to what they think is LGBTQ almost solely for extreme transgender issues, such as this issue.

So last night I was digging around, because after noticing that the Transgender Lobby uses the same MO in country after country - even the bills they put forward have the same names in different countries (for instance, the "Equality Act" in the US and UK)- I was convinced there was something global behind this.

And there is: check out the Yogyakarta Principles, specifically the Plus 10. Originally, the Principles were a group of prominent human rights activists' worthy attempt to stop discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

However, the Principles were hijacked by the Transgender Lobby and are now the template for all the bullshit they are managing to codify into law worldwide.

R110, my point was I did have concerns about possible abuse, but the thinking is that the child's gender dysphoria overrides the possibility of abuse. There has been a prevailing, liberal viewpoint regarding sexuality that has permeated into what's considered healthy/ normal in children. I can think of many instances where female pediatric patients ages 10-13 who wished being sexually active or are already sexually active. When I expressed my concerns to colleagues (this was when I was a new FNP; I work mostly as psych DNP now), I was told that my concerns were due to my anti-feminist views towards sexuality. I kid you not. Relative to that, I think sexualizing children also plays a role in the acceptance of young children identifying as transgender, even if the issue of sexuality isn't a main factor and doesn't declare itself until later during childhood/ adolescence.

Many factors go into this insanity that has resulted in the blind acceptance of gender dysphoria. It's both a combination of top-down influence, academia is very p.c. these days and that mindset filters downwards eventually influencing clinicians. Also the current climate does not lend itself to anything that smacks of anti-p.c.. The trans movement has piggybacked onto the gay/ lesbian movement for equality, so by extension anything that remotely calls the trans movement into question is an attack on gay/ lesbian equality. This is bullshit of course because now trans rights override women's and children's rights to not be discriminated or experimented on. As for the profession being spineless, again it's a loaded question, partly we're still in atonement over the fact that homosexuality was fully removed from DSM in 1987 (DSM is our bible from which we make diagnoses). So in the case of transgender children the pendulum has swung so far away from evidence-based practice which also takes into consideration the safety of patients. Now it's more like what happened in the heydays of over-prescribing opioid painkillers, where clinicians are supposed to take the words of patients over all other aspects of the clinical picture. Well, look what happened with that, now we have an opioid epidemic thanks in no small part to the guidelines presented to prescribing clinicians (pain control was a patient's right so we should always base treatment on that one factor). Luckily there are guidelines, laws, and tracking measures that we have to follow when we prescribe opioids. Will we have a similar measures in place for supposedly transgender children? Remains to be seen.

Reminds me of anti-vaxxers.

Junk science, propaganda, denial of reality. Vaccines cause autism, women can have penises.

Welcome to the 21st century.

Many people following the children being transitioned issue are now speculating that part of the whole push to transition pre-pubescent children is to lower the age of consent for sex too. If a child at 5 is considered able to make life-altering decisions regarding their own body, could that child not also be trusted to choose to have sex?

Twitter just banned Cambridge-educated philosopher and radical feminist, Jane Clare Jones, for tweeting a home truth about modern Transgender activism. Yet Twitter allows pedophile accounts where they offer to trade porn.

Pedophiles have rebranded themselves as "MAPs" (Minor-Attracted Person) or "Non-MAPs" (Minor Attracted Person who claims they will never act on their urges.) A few months ago, MAPs and Non-MAPs were all over Twitter ( I haven't checked lately) while Twitter was banning feminists like Meghan Murphy for tweeting that men are not women.

r112, thanks for explaining. It seems there are two approaches that are totally at odds with one another for patients are uncomfortable in their own body and feel like a 'mistake': 1) work with them and get them to love themselves as they are, or 2) agree with them and confirm their perception that they are in the wrong bodies, start them on lifelong medication and surgery.

Seems like the gay 'movement' (such as it is) was all about #1. Now we are being dragged backward.

Isn't it's now a criminal offence in some places for a parent not to allow a child to transition?

R114 Fuck me I've just been in Twitter and you're right! There are pedos all over the fucking place being all woke about themselves. I want to puke.

Fuck

This Atlantic article is almost a year old. Has it been posted here before?

it was posted here and IIRC r119 the author got major blowback from trans activists.

I really hope this is some kind of 4chan joke.

R98, we will get blamed for letting T happen 😢

Yeah, me too, r121. This has *got* to be satire. Doesn't it?

I'm a post op trans woman who is trans and lesbian and MAP! I'd say I'm a hebephile with my aoa being about 11 up!

I have an amazing therapist who has helped me to actually be proud of being a MAP and she views it for what it is!

R111, maybe it’s Putin. He obviously knows how to weaponize social media & definitely wants to sow chaos. He epitomizes homophobia & misogyny.

Those hypnotic sissy porns did not produce themselves.

Maybe they're better off transitioning. They'd probably get mocked and called faggot by gay men on here anyway

R114 is exactly right — if children are young enough to decide their sex, the (insane) thinking goes, then they are young enough to have sex.

Combine that with the “sex positive” push the left has had since the 1990s...& sane people who don’t want children having sex are “prudes.”

The push is parallel to legalizing prostitution. The Ts call radical feminists TERFs, & people who do not consider porn “empowering” or want to legalize prostitution SWERFs.

Most of the MTFs who get killed are prostitutes. And they claim they will be safe is it is legal...but in truth, they are probably being killed by angry johns who figured they were getting the dick sucked by a woman. (And not a man in convincing woman-face.)

[quote]This is very, very disturbing. But, I don't think it's because the parents are homophobic or sexist. A good friend is the mother of four. She's amazing! Great person, better mother. One of her daughters (now 14 years old) is very tomboy-ish. Sort of like Angie and Brad's girl. Loves dressing like her brothers. Short hair. All that jazz. My friend, for years, was sure she was trans. And she wanted to be a good mom - and who wouldn't? - so she read all the literature out there, had talks with her daughter, made sure her daughter received all the love and support, etc. She was ready to start the trans route. With her then 11 year old. Again, the very best of intentions... It's took me many long talks to finally convince her that she needed to let her daughter play around with gender roles WITHOUT medical intervention. Let her at least go through puberty for chrissakes! Well, it worked. And now her daughter has come out as gay with no desire to trans.

R39, how the hell does that story translate to the mom NOT being homophobic? I don't think you understand the word, or the whole concept of this thread, so perhaps you should bow out.

The transgender push was not originally a Putin scheme, R124, the Yogyakarta Principles were drawn up by a group of prominent human rights activists who, unfortunately, didn't think through the effects on gays and women.

Although I'm sure that Putin and the GOP welcome trans activism as a way to split apart the Democratic party. Women make up the base of the Democrats; by next year, this issue will be upfront enough that many women will feel disaffected and probably not vote/volunteer for the Dems, because women would be voting for their own legal erasure and 0 protection from sexual predators in spaces that should be relatively safe.

This is handing the GOP the election on a silver platter.

Also, some people can be fine with gay guys but still have a problem with lesbians. Or vice versa.

Unlike the MPD craze of the '80s, the current Trans Industry is not going to go away. There is too much money be made, both in running clinics and doing expensive surgery as well as supervising a lifetime addiction to hormones and other medications (drug companies).

The Medical Industrial Complex is estimated by some to be worth more globally than the Military Industrial Complex. And that's a shitload.

Here's an article about some of the power players behind the Trans movement (it was posted in another thread recently).

r116 Yes, this case is in Texas.

R127, I appreciate your view on my friend. But you're dead wrong. My friend is not, in any way, homophobic. She was misguided and guilty of drinking the trans kool-aid. To her, it was never at the expense of gays. That's why this issue is so dangerous.

I dealt more with why and how in a previous post.

And thank you so very much for inviting me to exit the thread by your perceived incompetence in my part. I hear your concern - but I'll happily stay involved in this thread, as I feel it's important.

And (yes, I realize this might be too much of a challenge for you) I'd encourage you to try and understand the many nuances and contexts that might bring a parent to even consider "transing" their children. Lumping them all as homophobic (which, of course, is often a factor) doesn't tackle the entirety of the complex issue at hand and certainly won't go very far in stopping the practice.

Five years is not enough. The backlash starts now.

R128 Trans issues go back a lot further than Putin. And, the religious right in America has not embraced or pushed for it, read about the Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City in the 1970s. Whereas Muslim countries, such as Iran, have fully embraced sex reassignment surgeries as a way to "fix" homosexuals, conservative Christians have not and will not. It would violate one of the central beliefs of Christians that God make no mistakes. It is the same reason conservative Christians have been slow to accept that gays, lesbians, and bisexuals are born that way, because if that is true, then a person's sexual orientation is part of God's creation and can't be changed or seen as sinful.

What evidence supports “gender affirmation”? In a letter to the editor published last fall in the Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, the Endocrine Society’s leading journal, a group of endocrinologists who specialize in gland and hormone disorders state that “there are no laboratory, imaging, or other objective tests to diagnose a ‘true transgender’ child.” Therefore, they ask, “how can a physician ethically administer GAT [gender-affirmation therapy] knowing that a significant number of patients will be irreversibly harmed?”

Answering this question is urgent because gender dysphoria among youth is increasing at an astonishing rate. In the U.K., where medicine is centralized and highly regulated, the National Health Service’s only gender clinic for children and young people saw 2,519 referrals in the 2017–18 fiscal year. This is an increase of 400 percent in the past four years. In the U.K., girls seem to be disproportionately affected. For instance, Britain’s national youth gender clinic has seen a 45-fold increase in females seeking medical help for gender issues in less than a decade. In 2009–10 there were 40 girls; in 2017–18, there were 1,806.

In the U.S., where medicine is less regulated, numbers are harder to come by, but we have an idea. Last summer The Atlantic reported that there are around 40 youth gender clinics in the United States. (Until 2007 there were none.) This does not account for hospitals and other practices offering treatment, so there may be considerably more. In 2017 the Williams Institute at UCLA School of Law estimated that 150,000 youths between the ages of 13 and 17 identify as transgender. In 2019, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimated that 2 percent of American high-school students, or around 300,000, identify as transgender. Estimates vary, but just about everyone agrees that the youth transgender population is increasing fast.

Teenagers are idiots, that's why we have laws to protect them. The parents clearly aren't.

Why does admin penalize these threads? Who runs DL?

[quote]Who runs DL?

The dago Mafia.

Dagoland has an age of consent of 14 and allows sex changes but has no gay marriage. It also has the fucking Vatican right next door.

R139 and r139 is the anti - Semite troll.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Chilling, R141.

R142 imagine if this happened on DL! MARY!

We should start a "Let's Be a Segregated Prison Wing for Dataloungers" thread, R143.

The transgender woman in R141 video used to be a man called Anthony Halliday, arrested for both physical and sexual assault.

[quote]You know it's ok if you're gay? We still love you. Sometimes boys like dolls and girls like sports. We just want you to be happy."

Yeah, but the best way to do that would be to say "You can do whatever you want, just don't hurt anyone" or just "Sometimes boys like dolls and girls like sports. We just want you to be happy" instead of throwing the gay thing in there until they hit puberty and it actually means something, like when you notice that they seem to be fawning over people of the same sex. At that point I think the first two sentences would be appropriate as well. Children don't give a shit about that stuff. They just want to play and have friends.

Sorry, 132. If your friend was "sure" her daughter was trans just because she was "tomboyish," then I'm going to stick with "homophobic" as a description of your friend's attitude, although I suppose she could just be ignorant and not necessarily homophobic.

Of course she was ignorant! As are most well intended, hetero liberals! They don't follow the trans activists like we do. They just assume that supporting trans = woke and a must do as progressives because that's what most liberal trendsetters tell them!

She only changed her mind after I informed her of what's really happening. After I got through to her? She couldn't be more supportive of her now out lesbian daughter.

R148, if all of that really went down the way you explain it, I think it's horrifying that your friend cared more about appearing "woke" that she did about what's best for her daughter.

She wasn't concerned about appearing woke! I don't get why this is so hard to grasp. She ASSUMED, like most hetero liberals, that being trans is just as normal as not being trans. And that if your child expresses gender dismorphia in any iteration, being 100 percent supportive of gender fluidity and/or trans IS the correct thing to do. This is solely the fault, IMHO, of the SJW left who went all in on trans without really understanding just how complex an issue it is.

This is what we're up against. It's up to us to educate. Calling these parents homophobic or trying to appear woke (I shouldn't have used that term - my bad) isn't going to change any minds. Their is no way my friend would respond to being called homophobic. Her entire life (political leanings, friendships, moral imperatives, core values) screams otherwise.

But talking to her in clear, common sense terms DID change her mind. Quite easily, actually. Again, it's up to us to change the narrative.

She's not just homophobic does an idiot. Plenty of straight girls are tomboys too.

Years ago on a Canadian documentary about being gay in the 60s a trans woman talked about being forced into psychiatric treatment by her parents when she came out as a gay man. Shock treatment, drugs, institutionalization.

The doctor finally told the parents that their best option was for him to become a her which she did so they would finally leave her alone.

As an adult in her 50s she completely regretted what was done to her in the name of mental health. She knew she was a gay man and she was turned into a woman because her family couldn't accept him as he was.

I imagine we'll be seeing many storied like this in the next few decades.

It's hard to imagine that the tide will turn any time soon. Too many people are making money off it and have vested interest (pedo brigade, big pharma, etc.). I'm 30 years old and I don't see this happening in my lifetime.

r145 thanks for posting that. The person sounds ... unbalanced. I can see why people who have a shady/criminal past would have an incentive to change name/ID and then go after anyone who dares to 'dead name' them.

why is this thread now greyed out?

The trans heard a rational sound and threw down their dilating dildos so they could rush over and silence us r155. WW the first post and let's get it un-greyed.

W&W OP's post to save this thread.

r145 Holy fuck so this asshole, who is being help up as a paragon of trans rights and leader of the community is a sex offender and con man and no one is saying anything?

Not the only one, r158. Charles/Charlotte Clymer is another.

R158, R159 Makes you wonder about Bruce Jenner.

I already know Brucie didn't lop off his cock, there's no fucking way, he is the epitome of male privilege, white male privilege. As someone said, if you can get out from under oppression by changing clothes, you aren't really oppressed.

You don't have to wonder, R160; remember when his own daughters caught him sniffing their skirts? So gross...

He was prancing around the house in their underwear when he thought they were gone and he wouldn't be caught. This isn't a rumor; he himself admitted it in an interview!

Do not forget Stef-on-knee who set fire to a house with his wife and some of his 7 children inside. Now he is a fetishist and a 6 year old who likes to have sex in public and to play with young children.

[quote]She wasn't concerned about appearing woke! I don't get why this is so hard to grasp. She ASSUMED, like most hetero liberals, that being trans is just as normal as not being trans. And that if your child expresses gender dismorphia in any iteration, being 100 percent supportive of gender fluidity and/or trans IS the correct thing to do. This is solely the fault, IMHO, of the SJW left who went all in on trans without really understanding just how complex an issue it is. This is what we're up against. It's up to us to educate. Calling these parents homophobic or trying to appear woke (I shouldn't have used that term - my bad) isn't going to change any minds. Their is no way my friend would respond to being called homophobic. Her entire life (political leanings, friendships, moral imperatives, core values) screams otherwise. But talking to her in clear, common sense terms DID change her mind. Quite easily, actually. Again, it's up to us to change the narrative.

I'm sincerely happy that you were able to get through to your friend and change her mind, but I'm sorry, I still think it was incredibly naive and stupid of her to equate tomboyishness with being transsexual. Why did she immediately go to the assumption that her daughter was a female who needed to transition to being a male, rather than considering that she might just be a lesbian -- or even just a tomboyish straight female? If she succumbed to brainwashing by the SJW left (to use your own term), that's her own fault. She is an adult with a mind of her own, and she should learn how to use it without you having to talk sense into her.

When you think about it, it’s a variation on heteronormativity - you like boys therefore you must be a girl.

DROP THE T, ALREADY.

How do we do that r167?

R150 - I completely agree, it is the well-meaning progressives who have had their thinking distorted by the normalisation of current trans narratives that we need to talk to. I don't know why people struggle to understand that it is not that your friend was either stupid or homophobic, just that (I assume) she is so surrounded by the idea of a trans identity being the go-to explanation of gender non-conforming behaviour, which was undoubtedly supported by any internet searches, that it didn't occur to her to think otherwise.

That's how people make sense of their live and the live of others around them - interpreting attitudes and behaviours through the explanations that we are surrounded with. Nothing that we do or say is inherently normal but it's normal within an historically and socially changing context - which, almost by definition, most of the time we don't even notice.

The issue with the current trans narrative is that it has slipped under the net without scrutiny and now any scrutiny is met with a barrage of insults/threats/harassment. There was a window of time in which to properly challenge it that seemed get missed as it was over before almost before it began, and now it's much harder to fight against.

Perfectly stated R169!

Scrutiny is now a lost part of the critical thinking process.

All too true, R169: Think about the slow creep of the Trans-acceptance narrative. It's been happening for years, but so subtly that those of us who woke up, only woke up recently, and 99% of the population is still asleep.

TransAmerica, Transparent, The Danish Girl (?), Chaz Bono, Bruce Jenner, drip, drip, drip until some of us sat up, "OMG - men are legally competing in women's sports, entering women's locker rooms, kids are being transitioned and propagandized in the classroom, biology is now a spectrum, misgendering is a crime, lose your job if you refuse to state your pronouns..."

But society, well the Progressives, have been so effectively propagandized that pointing out the absurdities and dangers of all of the above is now considered bigoted.

Masterful propaganda ,masterfully executed.

R171 but deep down most don't accept it and will turn on it in a minute when the wind starts blowing in a different direction. People will drop it just as quick as they "accepted" it.

"Think about the slow creep of the Trans-acceptance narrative."

Remember the days of "But we just want to peeeeee!!!"? Yeah, right...

The propaganda push directed to parents/mothers goes back to Ma Vie En Rose, hundreds of articles in parenting magazines, endless morning tv show pushes of books for preschoolers, like My Princess Boy and on and on. Parents were told over and over, it is a trans girl or a dead boy. Now they rightly fear losing custody to the state.

Here it is, The Holy Grail - this is why across the US, laws are being passed that will destroy women's rights, and the media, except for conservative media, won't touch it - why? Because the same laws claim to protect sexual orientation.

But they actually don't once the definition of sex includes gender identity, because no definition of sex=no definition of sexual orientation.

Yet again, gays are being used.

[quote] Colorado billionaire Tim Gill, the man dubbed "the mega-donor behind the LGBTQ rights movement" by Rolling Stone, disclosed that his strategy is to implement sexual orientation and gender identity laws as quickly and widely as possible at the state level. "We're going into the hardest states in the country," he said. "We're going to punish the wicked."

"punish the wicked"? Wtf does that even mean?

Apparently, "The Wicked" means the little girl sexually assaulted in a bathroom, as mentioned in the article at R175.

I had noticed the use of SOGI (Sexual Assault Gender Identity) to describe LGBT efforts, now I know why. The Transgender Lobby are tying the two together to get transgender "women" access to women's spaces and women's athletics, known full well that politicians must agree or be accused of being anti-gay.

This Gill man whose funding the local laws mustn't be too bright if he can't figure out that the backlash will destroy gay rights.

I live in a European country with a large muslim population. Something tells me 'women' with dicks won't be allowed in women's changing rooms. When muslim women swim at the pool, the place is closed off. No way they'll be allowed to shower together.

[quote]Now they rightly fear losing custody to the state.

Then dismantle the state.

[quote]How do we do that [R167]?

Start new gay organizations and demand DNA tests from all applicants.

This is horrifying and heartbreaking.

Trans is a weapon of war against homosexuality on two fronts:

-It is basically telling lesbians to settle for male-bodies sex partners and gay men for female-bodies ones.

-It is allowing heterosexuals to usurp gay identity and culture in order to achieve that end.

So many stories like this. This has clearly become a way for criminal men to fake their way into a new life after prison.

[quote]I don't know why people struggle to understand that it is not that your friend was either stupid or homophobic, just that (I assume) she is so surrounded by the idea of a trans identity being the go-to explanation of gender non-conforming behaviour, which was undoubtedly supported by any internet searches, that it didn't occur to her to think otherwise.

If she, as a mother, didn't have the basic critical thinking skills to separate rhetoric from reality and understand that her daughter might just be a lesbian, or a "tomboyish" girl, rather than needing to transition to being a male, then the mother is indeed stupid. It should not have been the responsibility of her friend (who's posting her) to talk sense into her and thereby protect that child. Gay people haven't suddenly stopped existing just because there are now so many more people who undergo some degree of gender reassignment. Only an idiot would fail to realize that, and I don't know why you struggle to understand it.

R178 but Muslims are okay with males who have their penises removed, right? So, they would be okay with some trans women using female facilities.

I haven't had a chance to watch this all the way through, but here is Gad Saad's interview with Olympian Ana Paula Henkel regarding trans infiltration of women's sports and other issues. Thought some of the posters here might find it interesting.

R185 No. Just the idea of a man seeing their uncovered hair, never mind their naked body, is unthinkable to them. Whether he has a penis or not is irrelevant. Like I said, men are not even allowed to look at muslim women in bathing suits at our local swimming pool.

No R184, if you think it is that simple then I suspect that you don't realise how pervasive trans rhetoric is, and how successful. It is not only idiots whose first point of reference is the trans narrative when they are confronted with a tomboyish girl or a feminine boy, and that is the truly scary thing.

If it was only people who were complete idiots or obvious homophobes then it would be easier to fight and it would be less pernicious. What's scary is that a lot of parents and policy-makers and teachers, who have otherwise progressive attitudes to the world, and who think critically on other things, believe in this precisely because it has been so normalised, precisely because the trans cultists have been so very very successful.

We may call her approach idiotic, and rightly so, but I think you underestimate how successful the normalisaiton of this attitude has become if you think it is in unusual or that it marks her out as particularly stupid. It's the fact that otherwise intelligent and competent parents and professionals believe in this, without even thinking about it, that terrifies me.

Most transwomen haven't had their penises removed R185.

R187 I was under the impression that because a Muslim country like Iran actually funds sex change surgeries that these men would then be fully accepted as female.

R189, I know but I thought Muslims accepted the males who did have the surgery as female.

Sorry R191, I missed the word 'some' in your original comment.

R188, thanks for explaining. I understand, but I still think one has to be very stupid, ignorant, naive, and/or credulous to believe that any tomboyish young girl must really be a boy and needs to transition. As if homosexuality has suddenly ceased to exist and/or is not considered an option anymore because it's unacceptable or, at least, unfashionable. On the other hand, I don't doubt that there are a lot of stupid, ignorant, naive, and/or credulous people in the world, and unfortunately, some of them are parents. So if that's your point, then I actually agree with you.

R190 you don't interact with any Muslims on the daily basis, do you? You really think a man with his junk cut off would be allowed to shower with Muslim women? Look at their naked bodies?

R193, every school has its trans child. In fact, I'm willing to bet that most private schools have a trans child in each class, and LA and NYC have a few in each class. A CDC study released in January 2019 found that almost two in every 100 high school students consider themselves trans.

It's a fad, and the kids go online and find creepy grown-ups who teach them how to threaten their parents with suicide in order to get them to agree to transition.

I know kids who are caught up, which is one of the reasons I'm so alarmed.

The difference between thinking one is trans and any other stupid, high school fad, is that now laws in many states make it illegal for parents, counselors, medical personnel, etc., to intervene and get the child some therapy. Instead, the child must be immediately confirmed, often meaning puberty blockers, that are incredibly dangerous.

So don't scoff at what parents are going through, try to understand that the Transgender Lobby, while we were sleeping, has propagandized academia, government, the media, the entertainment industry, the Medical Industrial Complex, etc., and the only people who can undo the damage are gays themselves, because, all of this has been done under the aegis of lgbT and it's really only gay men who can undo it.

this is worth a read

Tavistock: Former Clinicians Call It Conversion Therapy.

r196, what is "Medium" and why won't it let me read your link without signing in?

Graham Linehan, the Irish comedy writer who has done a lot to bring attention to gay kids being transitioned, and who has been sued and subjected to the police as a result, has had his article removed from MEDIUM by Trans, Inc.

This excellent website is the work of the woman who was physically assaulted by transgender activists at Speakers Corner in London a few years ago.

Rewriting history, erasing homosexual people.

I'm frustrated. It's hard to find articles on sexual orientation (homosexuality) from recent years since many of them are lumped together with gender identity (transgender).

Beng touted as a hate crime against trans people but really just two guys arguing over a gun.

Detransitioners are becoming more common on youtube.

Their ranks are growing exponentially, R203. McKinnon, Malloy, Clymer, Jones, and Jette-Knox of Twitter are nervously trying to distract everyone's attention away from them. For some strange reason, "lived experience" just doesn't count when it comes to detransitioners. Hmm...

They will just say they weren't truly trans r204. They will never admit it is true.

‘Yeah, I’ve got a vagina. But it’s mine and I’m a guy. Therefore it’s a guy’s vagina."

Appropriating maleness.

And appropriating male homosexuality.

A woman cannot be a male homosexual.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Trans activist challenged by a gender dysphoric person.

Yep r210, always, they always move the goalposts. Why can't she concede that detransitioners are real? What is she so threatened by? Also notice that she was scrolling through her feed for hours just trying to find something to get offended by. Like this chick and her fucking stupid headphones. "Alex Jones has a pair of headphones that completely covers his ears. "If I'm ever out and about I usually wear them," he says. "So I don't hear hear anything transphobic."

If you want to chuckle, or maybe even laugh out loud, read the links on this thread

The very fact that people can be swayed into believing they are of the other gender shows there's no such thing as an innate gender identity. I never innately knew I was male; I got to know because I was informed by the outside world based on my biological reality. What we have here actually is people feeling strongly identified with gender stereotypes of either sex.

The World Health Organization (WHO) just decided that it will stop classifying transgender people as having "gender identity disorder," a mental disorder, they now have "gender incongruence"

Which begs the question, "Incongruent to what?"

There seem to be a lot of gay men, whoops, same-genital attracted men, on the DL who like to bake and garden. Are they "gender incongruent" too?

Hey, WHO - there are 7 billion plus gender identities, because we each have our own. Alternatively, there is no such thing as "gender identity" we are all just individual personalities, many of which combine traditional gender roles.

But we all, even 99.98% of the intersex, have a distinct biological sex, easily identified by our genitals.

So perhaps, WHO, we should let people be people, and go back to biological sex as a way to classify distinct legal groups and keep the more vulnerable biological sex safe?

It is sane but perhaps not congruent with an agenda, R214.

Very interesting post by a user called i m b i b i t i o n n.

Please, Muriel, red tag and ban all of these raving mad anti-trans obsessed cunts. We despise them, everyone despises them.

Seriously, you'll be helping these ladies learn to accept responsibility for their actions as well as their hate-speech and to build their own insane anti-trans website instead of infesting our normal, Gay website. Let them stand on their own two sensibly shod feet for once.

FINALLY !A brand new LGBT organization has just formed to question the transitioning of children and all the rights of other vulnerable groups the Transgender Lobby is destroying

[quote] An organization to address over-medicalization of gender dysphoric youth, medical harm to trans-identified minors, & gender ideology rights conflicts

^Fuck off.

[quote]The reading of "I AM JAZZ" to kids under 5 is just crazy.

5 year olds don't need I AM JAZZ. They need to be taught how to read, write, count, draw, play games, how to behave in a group and how to have respect for people and things.

Interesting, R216. I have read that the backgrounds of many such young women includes rape and sexual assault, it makes being a woman for some feel too vulnerable. Of course, plastic surgery does not fully resolve that vulnerability.

[quote] 5 year olds don't need I AM JAZZ. They need to be taught how to read, write, count, draw, play games, how to behave in a group and how to have respect for people and things.

That is exactly, word for word, what they said about "Heather has two Mommies" and books about Gay Dads. Word. For. Word. You are a dumb and obvious bigot.

Part of children learning respect for people is learning about those people, Gay, Lesbian, Trans, Black, Disabled, whatever they may be.

Nice R218

If you want to know how Transgender Activists, including the infamous WPATH, snowed the medical profession, starting from the mad con artist, John Money, this is a must-listen.

This is an industry and a cult, and it's destroying the lives of gay kids with tremendous profits for the Medical Industrial Complex.

[quote] A physician who was in the Johns Hopkins Univ. Hospital group where "transgender medicine" was developed describes the lies, bad medicine, and fraud behind that movement. Quentin Van Meter, MD, FCP is a pediatric endocrinologist. He is a Fellow of the American College of Pediatricians and the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists.

It IS conversion therapy for gay children.

A few days ago on TV a mother told about her transgender boy, that a lesbian girl, how she told her mother about her gender identity. The mother paraphrased: mom, I like girls. I think I'm a boy.

Wow r226. Just wow.

The more you listen to cases of gender dysphoria the clearer it becomes that it is tightly related to gender stereotypes. Gender stereotypes are always there.

Hear what Douglas Murray says about trans.

Backlash is finally beginning, these rich white parents aren't going to put up with this shit anymore.

The Trans Horde are trying yet again to get professor Michele Moore, a children's activist and an editor of a journal of disability studies, fired, for standing up for kids being sucked into the Gender Vortex.

Moore cowrote last year's book "Transgender Children and Young People: Born In Your Own Body"

She's being railroaded for calling for careful consideration of the outcome before railroading "gender non-conforming" children into a lifetime of medication.

[quote] “The purpose of the book is to extend the conversation about transgenderism. Lack of open debate about transgendering children is a casualty of a current culture of offense-taking and identity politics which has had a serious impact on many aspects of free speech. Progressive politics and ethics should surely compel us to reflect upon and discuss theories and practices that may lead to the chemical and surgical transformation of the healthy bodies of children and teenagers. As a society, we are all morally responsible for our young people and, in our view, it is a derogation of our responsibility if, as adults, we did not openly talk about such a serious topic.”