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No. 3 ranking official in the Catholic Church has been convicted of sex abuse

Cardinal George Pell, once the third most powerful man in the Vatican and Australia’s most senior Catholic, has been found guilty of child sexual abuse after a trial in Melbourne.

by Anonymousreply 16603/14/2019

Catholic church is evil

by Anonymousreply 102/25/2019

This is happening so often now that it's hard not to demonise the Catholic church. I mean so many priests and nuns are abusive and self serving how can any one believe in this evil institution anymore?

by Anonymousreply 202/25/2019

Silly queens ( of all sexual persuasions ) just love the frocks and the smells and the bells. All religion is pathetic bullshit, but how does the Catholic church gets anyone to join it's rank ranks these day?

by Anonymousreply 302/25/2019

Strangely, the two convictions happened months ago. It has now had its gag-order lifted and so can be officially reported. But this follows on from the quashing of the second conviction and Pell's lawyers are confident the first conviction will be quashed also.

Here is gay Catholic journalist, Damian Thompson's take on the trial - which he doesn't hesitate to describe as a parody of justice:

by Anonymousreply 402/25/2019

David Marr nails it. The final sentence is brutal but honest.

by Anonymousreply 502/25/2019

R4 I don't think much quashing will go on now the dirty bishop has been exposed, so to speak, despite the revolting Catholics' attempts to cover it all up, as usual. What a prick that Thompson guy is, why do grown gay men do anything in support of the shitty Catholic church?

by Anonymousreply 602/26/2019

R4 wow that spectator jurno is a piece of shit. He clearly diddled boys left right and centre.

by Anonymousreply 702/26/2019

What I think may happen - what I hope will happen! - is that more of his victims may be emboldened to come forward.

Clearly this is not an isolated incident - and his fierce protection of so many others accused in his corrupt church - make me wonder just how many others he’s hurt.

There have been many rumours. But he seemed so powerful and unasssilable. Now there is hope. So want the truth to come out.

by Anonymousreply 802/26/2019

I cannot think of a more fitting end to a deplorable organisation that has persecuted, tortured and murdered 100s of millions down thru the centuries.

by Anonymousreply 902/26/2019

"murdered 100s of millions down thru the centuries."

Hundreds of millions.

You're deranged.

by Anonymousreply 1002/26/2019

The Catholic church has always been a hiding place for perverts and losers, glad it's losing its' grip.

by Anonymousreply 1102/26/2019

[quote]You're deranged.

R10 Lemme guess. Ex-Catholic School and present believing Catholic.

by Anonymousreply 1202/26/2019

The press here in Australia are really going hard with this story now that they are allowed. Some of the language from journalists has been unusually strong. These bitches are pissed.

by Anonymousreply 1302/26/2019

1. I sincerely hope the brain-washing Catholic cult dies soon alongside the bloodthirsty Islamic cult.

2. BUT, on the other hand, this old Catholic man is being convicted on the undocumented, memory of one brain-washed youth (plus another who didn't appear in court).

3. I understand there are now more Lapsed Catholics than practising Catholics.

by Anonymousreply 1402/26/2019

Oz has a long history of lawsuits against the Catholic Church by children horribly abused by priest and nuns. Just like Pope Pius XII protected Nazi butchers, the current Pope protected Pell until it became impossible to do so.

by Anonymousreply 1502/26/2019

R14, I think this pope's unquestioning embrace of islam is telling. I don't believe in god or the devil, but these two organizations have been nothing less than diabolical.

by Anonymousreply 1602/26/2019

R5. David Marr is a failed actor.

He went to RADA but left for some unknown reason.

That's why he's so terribly, pompously theatrical in his monologues on TV. You can see Marr doing his dramatic intonations with lots of pregnant pauses whole the interviewer bristles with impatience.

by Anonymousreply 1702/26/2019

So what R5 ? What difference does that make to the effectiveness of his takedown of the pedo bishop?

by Anonymousreply 1802/26/2019

R18 meant for R17

by Anonymousreply 1902/26/2019

R17 Agreed, Marr is hilarious, I always look forward to him being a talking head on panel shows. Sooo dramatic! He should get a show in Sky News to balance all the right wing nut jobs.

by Anonymousreply 2002/26/2019

Pell [bold]really[/bold] hates the gays and would denigrate us - viciously - at any opportunity possible.

There is no possibility that Pell didn't know of and wasn't directly complicit in covering up paedophilia and protecting Catholic church perpetrators for decades. And as it turns out - himself included as a paedophile. The lies! The deceit! The concentrated and ongoing denigration of gays in Australia. I hope that his last years are spent considering his legacy and the outfall from it. But he won't because he is so entitled and feels justified to rape little boys and hate on the gays - just like the rest of the Catholic church.

Watching the story on the news today I heard some woman scream from the crowd, "I hope you rot in hell". I agree with her. That's exactly what he deserves if there was a hell. I should imagine that his friends in prison will provide a bit of hell for him to endure.

by Anonymousreply 2102/26/2019

What took them so long?

by Anonymousreply 2202/26/2019

Now, start jailing the ones who broke the law by covering up the abuse and moving priests to different dioceses and parishes.

Get a couple more high profile cardinals and bishops in prison for 20 years and this whole mess will disappear. Too many of these clowns think they are royalty operating completely independent of the criminal justice system and with total immunity.

by Anonymousreply 2302/26/2019

“...has been found guilty of child sexual abuse...”

All of them are guilty; most just haven’t been found.

The Catholic church is a sick fucking monster of an organization, and I am endlessly astonished that the whole world condones their child-rape factory just because they are so fucking rich and have brainwashed so many generations. Sick.

by Anonymousreply 2402/26/2019

You're 100% correct R24.

by Anonymousreply 2502/26/2019

So fucking glad to see the fall of the monster organization that is the Catholic Church in my lifetime. About fucking time, too.

Now leave us free of any organized religion and go fuck yourselves.

by Anonymousreply 2602/26/2019

R26 It’s not going to fall. People who are Catholiic are Catholic in their DNA, and in their educations. I work with a woman from Pennsylvania whose mother was abused by Catholic nuns in an orphanage. She grew up going to Catholic schools, and she was beaten and verbally abused by nuns and now knows several childhood friends (male) who were raped by priests.

She condemns the Catholic church every time it comes up in conversation—AND she goes to Catholic church service every weekend by herself and sent both of her kids to Catholic school and sings the praises of Jesuit universities daily.

I believe she could watch the Pope himself slaughter a dozen children at an altar, rape their dead bodies and then eat their brains and find a way to excuse it while simultaneously ranting about how awful it is. When the Pope came to town a few years ago, she insisted that we leave work to watch his stupid car drive by, and she shook when it did. These people are completely and totally brainwashed. It is the world’s largest and oldest money-laundering abuse cult, that’s all.

by Anonymousreply 2702/26/2019

Whats strange about this case is that as a priest at his parish there were also accusations and many young men came forward against other priests but never against him. Now 2 men have come forward with relatively recent allegations. He's 77 and no one has ever accused him before December. I do hope others come forward otherwise this is an odd set of circumstances that this only happened toward the end of his career. And no not all Catholics are brained washed. As my 90 year old mother says. There are two kinds of Catholics.

by Anonymousreply 2802/26/2019

R27 These hypocritical sheep are able to hold two thoughts in their heads at the same time, that's for sure. Morons.

by Anonymousreply 2902/26/2019

What's the other kind, R28? Only ever come across the brainwashed ones.

by Anonymousreply 3002/26/2019

The social justice kind. My uncle is a priest and started several soup kitchens and had almost 200 apartments built for the homeless and domestic abuse victims and their children where we live. Everything my mother and uncle do is to benefit the poor. They boycott and have been arrested and protest wars and all of that kind of thing. They don't care about abortion or same sex marriage. They really only care about human suffering. And don't get my uncle started on Trump.

by Anonymousreply 3102/26/2019

I see who you mean. We have them in Europe too. Very socially conscious. Sometimes opportunistic and abusive as well, sometimes sincere. It depends.

by Anonymousreply 3202/26/2019

So his rod and his staff weren't very comforting?

by Anonymousreply 3302/26/2019

R31 they sound great.

by Anonymousreply 3402/26/2019

They actually are. And not boring or preachy. It's innate with them.

by Anonymousreply 3502/26/2019

R35, I had an aunt like that except she was episcopalian. I think in their cases it has less to do with religion and more to do with kindness.

by Anonymousreply 3602/26/2019

Should a person need organized religion to be socially conscious and kind?

by Anonymousreply 3702/26/2019

I hope they go after Sister Agony.

by Anonymousreply 3802/26/2019

BTW, was brought up Christian.

by Anonymousreply 3902/26/2019

If this were any other organisation, racketeering charges would have been filed long ago the the shoe thing would up.

Someone get the balls to shut this organisation down.

by Anonymousreply 4002/26/2019

Based on the evidence described in The Guardian, it seems that there would be grounds for finding reasonable doubt. I have as little regard for pompous, hypocritical clergy as anyone else on Datalounge but I don't like to see a conviction on less than very solid ground. When I watched one of the documentaries about the Golden Gate Killer, the lead investigator said that they had made "solid" cases against four suspects before they were cleared by DNA. There is a tendency to claim to find what your are looking for.

by Anonymousreply 4102/26/2019

R37 No of course not but in the case of my uncle/priest it gave him a platform and a jump off to get things done. When he came around asking for money or volunteers few said no.

by Anonymousreply 4202/26/2019

A crazy colleague of mine is a nutty reborn Catholic. He was ranting against abortion but didn't seem mad about the child abuse scandal at all. What a fucking insane ,crazy cunt he is. For all those nuts, Jesus Christ is not happy that Roman Catholics priest were screwing and blowing young boys. I wish that the Roman catholic false gospel people would realize the error of their ways. Instead they act like nothing has happened and everything is peachy keen. What a bunch of bullshit those fucking hypocrites peddle.

by Anonymousreply 4302/26/2019

Their excuse is is that the Catholic Church aren't the priests or congregation. The Catholic church is the host (communion) and the teachings of Jesus Christ., readings, gospel etc. Humans are sinners. I can't stomach it because of their hypocritical support of Trump. I'm pretty sure JC wouldn't be a Trump supporter.

by Anonymousreply 4402/26/2019

I would like to see the U.S. revoke the tax-exempt status of all churches.

by Anonymousreply 4502/26/2019

Let’s see. There’s only one witness. The other one has passed away. So it was one witness words against Pell. How did he even get a conviction ???? Even though I know Pell’s guilty

by Anonymousreply 4602/26/2019

R41

None of the rabids on here are going to be listening to the voice of reason on this issue.

There are MANY corrupt clergy in the Catholic Church. Most of the abuse in the States at least, according to the official independant John Jay Report discovered that 80% of the abuse was against adolescent boys between the ages of 12 and 17 and was done by clergy who otherwise described themselves as attracted to men, not children. That makes them as gay as you or me but gays who have completely lost any human decency they once may have had.

The report also found that the high incident rates in the Catholic Church were no higher than in any other institution and certainly not higher than in families. This leads me to three conclusions:

1. It's not celibacy which causes abuse - because the rate in families is higher.

2. The problem the Church has is with gay clergy who abused their position of trust shamefully. But ESPECIALLY with (gay?) Bishops who hid predatory clergy and moved them from one place to the next.

3. If abuse is no higher than in other institutions what REALLY makes people condemn the Church is that the Church claims to be something special and with an unique authority. People can't stand it at the best of times - but when whole swathes of the clergy are hypocrites then this drives people insane with rage - as we're seeing here.

As regards Pell - he called out the hypocritical abusive gays in the clergy - which made him enemies. And whilst there are MANY prelates in the Catholic Church who need stringing up - he is not one of them. The Guardian has acknowledged just how weak the case is in these accusations against him. It was enemies within the Church who don't want him to dig in to the Vatican finances who orchestrated all of this against him. FOLLOW THE MONEY. The corruption he was rooting out is what this trial is concealing and eventually even that truth will come out.

Will that make any difference to the people posting on here?

Of course not. One ludicrous poster above claimed the Church has tortured and killed hundreds of millions of people. When asked for evidence of that none was supplied.

You can F&F me as much as you like. Them's the facts. ESPECIALLY on the gay clergy abuse of adolescents stats. And until gays face up to those of their number who have a fixation on the twinks then you all have nothing to say. The whataboutery that straight men have a problem going after young teen girls doesn't change anything: As the Catholic Church is discovering - you've got to set your own house in order first.

by Anonymousreply 4702/26/2019

“The boys had broken away from a procession outside the Cathedral in East Melbourne minutes earlier, re-entered the building through a side door and snuck into the sacristy, a room where priests prepare for mass and disrobe afterwards. They took swigs from a bottle of sacramental wine.

But Pell, then 55 and a man of considerable physical presence, did not let them leave the room.

Instead, he exposed himself and sexually assaulted both boys.”

by Anonymousreply 4802/26/2019

R48

And since he was presiding that service and was last in that procession - he would have been last back to the sacristy in the presence of ALL the other people coming back in at the end of the service. He wouldn't have been there alone with them - the whole idea is preposterous.

This case - like the subsequent ones which have been thrown out before the gagging order was lifted - will be shown to be a pile of BS in very short order and Pell will be exonerated. Even one of the accuser's own Mother denies it could have happened and that the complainant was looking for financial reward!

Insane.

This is a political trial against an unpopular man who has made himself powerful enemies both within the Church and outside the Church.

by Anonymousreply 4902/26/2019

If only they could test the DNA inside the boys’ anuses.

by Anonymousreply 5002/26/2019

One other thing about my uncle/priest. When I was a kid I won a baseball at a festival which all of the World Series winner Reds had signed; Pete Rose, Joe Morgan, Tony Perez, Johnny Bench etc. Everyone thought it was so great and worth a lot of money. Well my uncle was going down to Louisiana or someplace to protest at a farm workers event and he was going to be with Caesar Chavez. I thought that would be a good name to add to my baseball so my uncle had him sign it. I have a baseball with all of the World Series Cincinnati Red's signatures and Caesar Chavez. My dad says I ruined it's value.

by Anonymousreply 5102/26/2019

Religion is a concept that is outdated. Islam, Catholicism, and the like have outlived their time in history.

by Anonymousreply 5202/26/2019

Jesus is the devil. Muhammad is Beelzebub.

by Anonymousreply 5302/26/2019

So what, R17? I’m Australian so am familiar with his c.v. Not sure what that has to do with his reporting of Pell’s conviction.

by Anonymousreply 5402/26/2019

He was convicted due to the testimony of one witness.

Unfortunately I can see Pell winning in appeal.

by Anonymousreply 5502/26/2019

R55 Is one witness even sufficient ? His words against Pell

by Anonymousreply 5602/26/2019

R28 - there have been other allegations.

There was a second trial - the so called swimming pool trial - that was the reason there was a gag order here in Oz on this first trial. Pell supposedly delighted in exposing himself and playing with his cock in front of kids at a local swimming pool. It was a long time ago - and was dismissed as it really was too hard to prove.

There’s also reports of earlier accusations - including one case in the late eighties/early nineties where he was briefly suspended from duties in the church while they carried out an internal enquiry. Unsurprisingly they said allegations could not be proved - but also - that they could not be disproved either! - which was a surprise. But he got to go back to work anyway - business as usual!

So yeah - scratch the surface - and there’s more stuff there. Again, just hope more and more victims now feel they will be heard if they step forward. He was just too powerful and scary in the past - no one could challenge him. Now - maybe not so much.

by Anonymousreply 5702/26/2019

Sold his soul to the Devil. Assuming he had a soul to begin with.

by Anonymousreply 5802/26/2019

Now for the defrocking

by Anonymousreply 5902/26/2019

R55, R56, of course one witness is sufficient. This is the law, not mathematics. The trier of fact evaluates the credibility of each person who testifies. One person’s credibility, in light of all surrounding circumstances, might easily outweigh another’s.

by Anonymousreply 6002/26/2019

R54 You're right. This theatrical newspaper journalist is only incidental to the main point of this thread.

I was merely suggesting to R5 that Marr (who was sacked from his previous well-paid job at the Herald and now suffers in a low-paid position at the Guardian) like to over-dramatise things, placing himself in the middle of the drama, behaves like an old queen and is jealous that bishops and cardinals wear such nice dresses.

by Anonymousreply 6102/26/2019

Just announced that Pell has been removed and deleted from the Vatican structure where he was 3rd highest ranking in the world. Maintains his innocence of course...

by Anonymousreply 6202/26/2019

R62 Which is what those in positions of influence in the Vatican wanted all along.

The first trial of Pell on these charges reached a 10-2 verdict of his innocence.

Further charges were thrown out as unreliable.

This trial result will go to appeal and Pell will win it.

But Pell the enforcer who was making life difficult for the corrupt prelates in the Vatican most certainly won't be re-instated to return to his investigation of corruption in Vatican finances. Pope Benedict spoke about 'wolves surrounding him' at his election. He was talking about other Cardinals and Bishops. Pell, being an unlikeable bruiser with an appetite for a straight fight was brought down by the machinations of some very powerful forces.

And that's what this was all about, all along.

by Anonymousreply 6302/26/2019

Pell is a nasty reactionary put into power by Wojtyla and Ratzinger. He has always played the inside game and I highly doubt that he was going to bring down the Vatican inner guard. Glad that he is out of power.

That said, I read the trial documents carefully and -- with regret, I have to add -- I find the charges brought against him implausible. An attack just after Mass, two boys rather than one, the denial of the victim (who later died of an overdose) that he had been sexually assaulted. I find it all unlikely.

by Anonymousreply 6402/26/2019

The Catholic cheer squad are out in force today it seems! Trying to muddy the waters and cast doubts on the validity of Pell's child rapist conviction. Also attempting to equate being a homosexual male with being a paedophile!

Over the years there have been plenty of noises made around Sydney about him sexually assaulting little boys but he was so well connected and protected nothing would stick. It was said that because of his position and supporters, victims would be ignored by authorities and police and targeted/threatened/harassed until they gave up. This is well known.

In his position he was directly aware of and directly responsible for covering up Catholic clergy paedophiles and hiding child rapists within the church for decades. For decades. The Vatican is fully aware that every single allegation against Pell is true and that's why they were so quick to dump him once the conviction was made public yesterday.

The protection has stopped. Pell thought he was royalty and nothing could touch him and now it has all come crashing down.

by Anonymousreply 6502/26/2019

Some of Pell's many hateful comments about gays and lesbians over the years:

by Anonymousreply 6602/26/2019

And finally the filthy, hateful child rapist paedophile George Pell is now in prison where he belongs.

Because of the crimes he has been rightfully convicted for, he will be isolated from the general prison population due to safety concerns...

by Anonymousreply 6702/26/2019

R66 please don’t link to that god awful site, thanks.

by Anonymousreply 6802/26/2019

Oh, calm down you dizzy bimbo r65. No one is defending Pell. No one is saying the witness is lying.

What some are discussing is because the sole witness is the accuser, that will be used to Pell’s advantage by his lawyers in the appeal. No is saying he didn’t do it and that is isn’t a thoroughly nasty piece of work.

But we can discuss what we guess may happen without you clutching your fucking pearls.

by Anonymousreply 6902/26/2019

This view of Pell’s child rape by his lawyer during his summation today hasn’t gone down well here.

Absolutely appalling.

by Anonymousreply 7002/26/2019

Why do people readily accept this abuse happens in the church, but if anyone points out the same behavior in DC or Hollywood they are called insane or a conspiracy theorist?

by Anonymousreply 7102/26/2019

[quote]The former prime minister John Howard was among those who provided character references for Pell

FUCK HIM

by Anonymousreply 7202/26/2019

R71 Because priests are not scapegoated as people are in Hollywood and DC. Because priests are hidden and protected by Catholic Church power while people in Hollywood and DC are accused, tried and condemned by media. Because despite centuries of Catholic Church abuse, its cultural hold and power means that it remains largely above investigation, criticism or condemnation.

by Anonymousreply 7302/26/2019

R47 /r63 is absolutely right.

Pell is in this position because he was one of the main people calling OUT the abusers.

But the abusers have been in charge for so long that they have risen to the highest ranks of the Vatican. The very, very HIGHEST. Very easy for them to arrange for these sudden accusations (for there were none until very recently, in contrast to many other Bishops and Cardinals who have been being accused for decades), so that they could strip him of his position and thereby shut down the most effective enemy to the abuse culture in the Catholic Church.

The HIGHEST in the Catholic Church are behind this kangaroo court, and they're doing this to this man BECAUSE he hates the abuse of twinks and is trying - was trying - to stop it.

by Anonymousreply 7402/26/2019

[quote]Pell is in this position because he was one of the main people calling OUT the abusers.

Rubbish! Pell is "in this position" because he is yet another Catholic Church kiddie diddler, an abuser of children. He is not the "scapegoat" R74 claims, otherwise he would have been turned over by the Vatican back in 2015 to face prosecution.

by Anonymousreply 7502/26/2019

I follow a few very progressive Jesuits on Twitter. Outspoken and, again, progressive on so many issues. Today? Crickets. I am disgusted.

by Anonymousreply 7602/26/2019

Pell's aloofness has not helped matters.

I think there are professional victims who have been taken up by the "The Catholic Church Is Only Evil' brigade, and with time on their side, and Pell's dour demeanor, a win was won.

by Anonymousreply 7702/26/2019

Life has taughht me that most people are not brave, R76. Especially when their livelihood is at stake.

by Anonymousreply 7802/26/2019

Despite the recent media gag, Pell has been spoken about at length, and the abuses of the Catholic Church at the Australian national-level for a long-time (and a pet favorite cause for the national broadcaster, the ABC).

All this media attention and discussion makes a jury trial inappropriate. But of course, their was no option for a trial by a judge when it was all occurring in Victoria.

by Anonymousreply 7902/26/2019

R13 What, you think it's just been now? ABC has being going hard on the Catholic Church for a very long-time, all at the expense of not covering other Christian denominations who have their own sordid histories of abuse. There is a very strong anti-Catholic sentiment from the likes of the ABC and supposed journalists like the Anglican David Marr.

by Anonymousreply 8002/26/2019

There are 'victims' that claim that a supposed, very quick, touch of their clothed backsides, is the reason for their long trail of destruction via drug and alcohol abuse as well as their criminal and violent actions.

Rather than take responsibility, a the 'survivor' industry has manipulated and used their supposed 'victims' for their own causes, be it the anti-male brigade, or the anti-Catholic Church brigade, or both.

by Anonymousreply 8102/26/2019

R18 Righteous damnation of the Church, makes for better theatrics. Theatre has no time for the truth. He isn't a journalist, he's a soapbox dandy always with some clever put-down to recite.

by Anonymousreply 8202/26/2019

Centuries of conquest, theft, cultural destruction, persecution and genocide, an horrific worldwide record of child abuse, and still the faithful rush to the defense of Mother Church.

Madness!!

by Anonymousreply 8302/27/2019

The Roman Catholic Church ended with the death of Pius Xll in 1958. Since then it has been ruled by the satanists.

The only true Church today is the Orthodox Church, which was restored n Russia by Blessed Putin.

by Anonymousreply 8402/27/2019

R80 - get real!

Yeah - the Royal Commission here found many cases of abuse from many different faiths - but the fucking Catholic Church here was the worst offender. Maybe something with their stupid ‘celibate’ lifestyles while cloistering men with men and women with women - and the weird views and pronounced opinions opinions they feel happy to make about the GLBT community - while it’s been estimated that anything up to around 80% of priests are closeted, conflicted gay men.

I am ashamed to have been baptised and a confirmed a Catholic. I’ve long since lapsed - but I’m so angry at their hypocrisy, their homophobic rhetoric and above all - the harm they’ve done to so many - with until now - hardly any consequences.

I will never set foot in one of their corrupt and defiled places of worship ever again.

So fuck off with your oh-it’s-just-anti-Catholic-bashing! - and go read the report handed down by the Royal Commission and try and channel some energy into compassion for the victims.

And seriously - the Catholic Church is far and away the most vocal faith against gays and lesbians! So wtf are you doing defending them here on a gay gossip site? Some sort of Vatican troll? Just fuck the fuck off!

by Anonymousreply 8502/27/2019

So DL brethren - Oz angry lapsed Catholic here again. I want your advice!:

How best to channel my anger at this corrupt organisation that’s done so much harm here?

What can an individual do?

I’m not a user of social media. But letters to the editors of the dailies? Letters to my MP? Letters to the top and local parish priests here? Just saying how angry and disgusted I am and just what are they gonna do about it? Write the Pope? Wear a sandwich board with something suitably inflammatory outside the Catholic cathedral in town?

Would anything an individual does have any effect?

Maybe i could start manufacturing millstones? (Matthew 18:6)

Any thoughts?

by Anonymousreply 8602/27/2019

R86 - support the accusers.

by Anonymousreply 8702/27/2019

R87 - but how exactly?

I mean - I’m not being facetious! - but in what way? What form of support can I offer? What concrete thing can I do?

by Anonymousreply 8802/27/2019

R85 Just discovered the exclamation mark, dear?

by Anonymousreply 8902/27/2019

Who is the idiot at R89?

by Anonymousreply 9002/27/2019

I bet 92 percent of Catholics would remain active members of the church even if it rebranded honestly as “The Holy Roman Catholic Church: The World’s Largest Child-Rape Factory, Plus Hoarders of Gold.”

by Anonymousreply 9102/27/2019

R88 Pure emotional behaviour won’t help them. Research if you can donate to their legal funds. Likewise if you you run a business or have a useful professional skill - dry cleaner, phone repairer, tutor, dentist, makeup artist, electrician - get the word out that you work gratis or cut a good deal for victims of childhood sexual abuse or bullying by Catholic Church associates.

Also, holding up placards outside your local parish and yelling at the ladies who do the flowers or school teachers will just have the local police sighing at you to move along and write you up for disturbing the peace. You could more usefully protest celebrity Catholics and gays who publically support Pell - Andrew Bolt, Miranda Devine, Tony Abbot, Barnaby Joyce and Alan Jones - is he “officially” out?

by Anonymousreply 9202/27/2019

QUELLE SURPRISE!

by Anonymousreply 9302/27/2019

It's basically just a pedophile club.

by Anonymousreply 9402/27/2019

R92 -

Alan Jones - out? LOL! Are you kidding?

Nah - he just hasn’t met the right woman yet... (and those little public toilet difficulties were a complete misunderstanding!)

(For the non-Oz here - Alan Jones is a vile conservative shock jock here. Nasty, closeted old queen. Sanctimonious, self righteous - and in thrall to big corporate bucks. I suspect his demographic are all pretty much dying off - just wish he’d hurry up and join them. Utter waste of space - total hypocrite).

by Anonymousreply 9502/27/2019

Jones was accused of getting too close to the students at King’s, from memory.

by Anonymousreply 9602/27/2019

R96 - thought that was why he was ‘let go’ from Brizzie Boys’ Grammar too. Had a friend who worked next door at the Girls’ School - who said rumours about why jones left swirled around for years afterwards - it had been considered a bit of a scandal at the time - before jones became a public figure

by Anonymousreply 9702/27/2019

40 years ago I attended a catholic school where the abuse was rampant, known about by the entire monastic community and entirely covered up. It took 40 years for it to be exposed and the junior school closed down. The monastic community also now has far less involvement with the senior school because they simply couldn’t be trusted to ensure the safeguarding policy requested of them. The choice of senior figures, two in particular most recently, was to cover up the abuse continuously. But every member of the community was and remains culpable. The hard, cold truth is that many simply did not care. The monastic community and the reputations of individuals took priority over the duty of care these men had to the boys, some as young as eight.

I just looked at the website for the school and, obscenely, it mentions a celebratory gathering held when the junior school was shut down, as if it had a history they should be proud of rather than one of child rape. They lacked both the courage and the humility to recognise their own crime. Both virtues I was under the impression should be integral to men of the cloth.

Anyone who continues to defend the church should be ashamed of themselves.

by Anonymousreply 9802/27/2019

When sex scandals broke in Boston 20 years ago, I wondered why the bishops who were moving these fiends around weren't indicted and their puppet-masters in the Vatican not indicted in absentia or something. All the popes knew this shit was going on....globally! Ratzinger was the head of the office that oversaw all this horrific business. He, of all the possible candidates, was the one who was voted pope. The church is rotten to the core and it begins at the top.

I say this as someone who was raised Catholic and lived in a parish that was very well-run and, for the most part, that was very supportive and protective of its parishioners, including the children. I think the difference was that parents were very involved in everything. So many gave a lot of their time and it made a big difference in my life and the lives of my friends. What a betrayal to so many, especially and primarily what a horrific betrayal to all those abused.

by Anonymousreply 9902/27/2019

Catholic Church =nightmarish hypocrisy of the highest order

by Anonymousreply 10002/27/2019

Well said R98. And just look at all the defenders posting in this thread.

by Anonymousreply 10102/27/2019

Let's go back even further, R99. The Polish prince, the "beloved" John Paul II orchestrated a huge amount of cover ups throughout the world and was still able to keep a tight light on the scandals. Ratzsinger had no such luck.

And yet the mother fuckers made John Paul II a god damned saint.

by Anonymousreply 10202/27/2019

I grew in a town that had priest scandals and I got out of dodge when I turned 17 and went to university. The cases I wear most familiar with occurred during the late 80s/early 90s when my brother attended one of the schools and there were multiple suicides and imprisonments later in the decade.

What galls me isn’t primarily the Church, which I never had much interest in as a child and mistrusted entirely by about age 6 and my parents didn’t make me attend. What amazes me is that the sexual abuse was enabled by the community. By lay Catholic workers, by teachers, by local city councillors, state representatives, federal MPs, police, EVERYONE knew but it’s just the way things were. All these outside entities LET then get away with it. There was a local politician who was quietly gay and did heaps for the community, who was later acccused of abusing teens, and was murdered. He was at the Catholic schools fundraising constantly. Another mayor and state representative was married and closeted and a full on Catholic. My parents were told by a local lawyer friend who that these guys were suspected to be in a sex ring with a prominent judge and a famous actor and a celebrity writer. There’s money and favours intertwined from the bottom up and children are the collateral damage.

The person that harmed my brother and myself most was a psychotic ex-nun who caused me to have a nervous breakdown at age 8 and drew blood from my brother when she pulled him across the room by his earlobe at age 12. And this was in the 80s! We weren’t the only ones, there were a few kids each year. The vice principal, the principal the diocese, other teachers, other parents, politicians, social workers - everyone knew about her rage and no one did anything because she was a) a proficient, organised teacher who taught heaps and organised many projects and arts and sports and b) a super massive catholic who did heaps of unpaid work for the parish, as did her ancient mother.

by Anonymousreply 10302/27/2019

R103 - a good article on just that topic in The Guardian.

Like you - so many of us are like wtf are all the people who run the catholic organisations who aren’t actual priests or nuns going to do? At the moment - they’re just like the republicans - enabling corruption.

(I too vividly remember a really sadistic nun who became the principal of my catholic school when I was young. My only regret is that she’s not still around now to face some consequences for her evil behaviour! However - I know at least some parents confronted her and read her the riot act and withdrew their children from the school - so she didn’t exactly bully everyone! - and think she was moved on after only a couple of years and was replaced by a nun who’d been teaching there and was genuinely a kind and caring soul. Love to know what went on behind the scenes - but my parents let me transfer to a public school by then. I hated being at that scary fucking place!)

by Anonymousreply 10402/28/2019

R102 Even more horrific, those motherfuckering monsters canonized Hitler's Pope and Saviour of Nazi Butchers, Pius XII.

by Anonymousreply 10502/28/2019

How the Catholic Priesthood became an Unlikely Haven for Many Gay Men

by Anonymousreply 10602/28/2019

R105 No. They didn't. But don't let any facts get in the way of your insanity.

And this American Rabbi would certainly be in favour of that canonisation and his inclusion in Yad Vashem - for the thousands of Jewish lives that he actually did save.

by Anonymousreply 10702/28/2019

Take a listen to Cardinal Pell himself being interviewed by the Police concerning the allegations.

On balance, I believe the Cardinal in this instance.

by Anonymousreply 10802/28/2019

I think everyone posting in the thread should state beforehand if they're a Lapsed Catholic, a Practicising Catholic or an idle trouble-maker.

I'm a Lapsed Protestant and I don't care what happens inside the Catholic Church because I know the institution will be DEAD by the year 2050.

by Anonymousreply 10902/28/2019

Another thing, the police are generally people of middling to below intelligence and there is a general level of incompetence and corruption surrounding their activities - ESPECIALLY in Victoria where this case was tried.

by Anonymousreply 11002/28/2019

Calm down. Priests sexually abuse children only on days that end in “y.”

by Anonymousreply 11102/28/2019

Of course it is absolutely mandatory that everything be black and white. Either all Catholics everywhere and at all times in history are or have been complicit and enabling of sexual abuse or none are. Either every priest throughout history has been diddling boys, or none has. Either all priests are diddling little prepubescent boys or those who have had sex with the underage have only ever slept with teens who are barely underage. Either every priest who is ordained in the Catholic church takes an oath that he will endeavor to abuse as many boys as possible or a very small percentage do so on their own recognizance.

God forbid that there be qualifiers, or, even worse, facts and statistics in a discussion like this. It would be beyond terrible to say something like the following: there is a relatively small subset of priests who have been horrifying serial abusers, and because of their ability to be put in positions which gave them access to boys and protection from normal prosecution, they did damage to many thousands of boys around the world. Better to say that all priests have done it.

Terrible to say: the erroneous belief of many people in the hierarchy of the church that confession and counseling would be sufficient to "cure" a sexual abuser led to many being reassigned over and over again, giving them even more opportunities to re-offend. Better to say that they did these reassignments on purpose, hoping that more and more children and teens would be damaged for life.

Terrible to say that many people have been inspired by their faith for centuries to found hospitals, rescue starving children in far-flung places, found schools and universities. Better to say that if they would have done so anyway, without a belief system that encouraged it - because after all, through the centuries, there have been so many hospitals and schools and universities and children rescue organizations founded by the non-religious.

No one likes to say it, but scratch any organization - boy scouts, mormons, southern baptists, orthodox jews, indian schools, odyssey houses, ashrams - and you're going to find sexual abuse of minors......and lots of it. The common denominator is an organization that prioritizes saving itself from scandal over the plight of the damaged and abused. The Catholic church only happens to be one of the largest. But proportionally it's in the same ball park as all the others.

The real criminals in this are the people higher up on the ladder who AFTER copious scientific evidence established that there is no real cure for a sex offender STILL reassigned and protected abusers. This is the real scandal, and the reason that people are horrified.

by Anonymousreply 11202/28/2019

R112 There's a lot of wisdom in what you write. If I may, you write:

"Either all priests are diddling little prepubescent boys or those who have had sex with the underage have only ever slept with teens who are barely underage."

I think the statistics indicate that the vast majority of the abuse is done by priests who otherwise identify as gay and may well have had sexual experience with men prior to those they then go and target: teenaged boys. What I therefore find unacceptable is the categorical refusal of those in influence and power in the Catholic Church to acknowledge that there isn't a subset of monsters called paedophiles in their midst but, in fact, a subset of homosexual clergy within their midst who are in a stage of adolescent arrested development that brings them to target twinks.

Why doesn't the Church do this? - and the latest Vatican Conference EXPLICITLY took it out of consideration - because, as you'll know as (manifestly) a member of the clergy yourself and gay yourself - vast numbers of the clergy ARE gay and hiding that fact in the priesthood - and these issues are too close to home for them.

The denial of that elephant in the sitting room means these prelates WOULD RATHER categorise the problem as paedophilia and generate the understandable horror and hostility to the whole Church as a result - than admit that the Church has well over 50% of its clergy as homosexual, some of whom have seriously harmed adolescent boys because of their sexual preferences.

The actual proportional levels of paedophilia - of perverts attacking and abusing young children of either sex - are no higher in the Catholic Church than any other human institutions.

by Anonymousreply 11302/28/2019

Predictably, he's arguing his convictions should be overturned, or he should receive a retrial, because, he claims, there was a "fundamental irregularity" in his trial that prevented him from entering a plea of 'not guilty' in front of the jury.

So here we go, the old paedo gets to appeal. The institution with hundreds of billions of dollars flexes its wealth, and Pell gets to really fuck over the victims all over again.

by Anonymousreply 11402/28/2019

Why are there no 'pedophile' protestant ministers or rabbis?

by Anonymousreply 11503/01/2019

Well, off the top of my head there's Brian Houston , the chomo founder of megachurch , Hillsong. A guy named Manny Waks, grew up part of the orthodox community in eastern suburbs, was abused, and eventually presented evidence to the Royal Commision, and also founded Tzedek, an organisation that fights child sex abuse in Jewish communities here and around the world. And there've been a few Anglican schools with teachers found guilty of sexually abusing girls and boys, as well as 'children's homes'. and other children in care organisations run by proto churches. But yeah, I take your point, it's the Roman Catholic Church that's been getting more attention than others.

by Anonymousreply 11603/01/2019

R115 Amongst the Orthodox/Haredi Community there is an absolute omerta on raising these questions outside of the community - much like amongst Jehovah Witnesses. It brings shame. Cases do emerge from time to time, however.

Amongst Muslim populations there is the language barrier and cultural norms which haven't seen the issue emerge as it undoubtedly will in years to come. Female Genital Mutilation, for example, has been against the law for 20+ years in the UK. The FIRST and ONLY prosecution for this happened last month. Crazy.

Last week the Southern Baptists of the United States had to confront 700 cases of child abuse by their (married) ministers over a 20 year period:

by Anonymousreply 11703/01/2019

R114 There have been far too many perverted predators amongst Catholic clergy in recent decades. I don't believe Pell is amongst them. I think this is a hit job at the behest of fanatically anti-Catholic authorities in Australia and with the collusion of mafiosi-like Cardinals in the Vatican who definitely do not want that old bruiser investigating their corruption.

And they've won.

He won't be going back to Rome to continuing his investigations into financial corruption ever again even when he is exonerated (as he will be) of these accusations that should never have led to a conviction in the first place.

by Anonymousreply 11803/01/2019

All religion is bullshit, without exception. The greatest sadness in all this is the human need for ' the answer' to life, which can not been found in any religious storybook. The fact the Catholic church is collapsing under its own rottenness is a step in the right directions for humans to grow the fuck up and stop believing in fairy tales, however, as we see here,members of the cult are still striving to present it in a positive light, that's brainwashing for you. Catholic priest = pedo in everybody's mind now for a very good reason.

by Anonymousreply 11903/01/2019

R115 - there’s actually a case in Oz and Israel right now of a female child abuser - former headmistress of a girls’ school here who fled to Israel to avoid indictment/arrest - see link below.

It can happens anywhere with any faith or organisation. But it does seem to be disproportionately high with catholic priests, brothers etc. I’ll leave you to ponder the reasons for that.

Oh - and if George Pell we’re not the whitest of White guys and a Catholic - and was instead a leading Muslim cleric here - all of those defending Pell would be screaming for his blood. Fucking crazy.

by Anonymousreply 12003/01/2019

R120 "But it does seem to be disproportionately high with catholic priests, brothers etc. I’ll leave you to ponder the reasons for that."

It actually isn't. No statistical measure confirms that. In fact, the Catholic Church levels are no different than any other institution and thus, ipso facto, are lower than family levels of pedophilia.

And yet this IS, indeed, the prevailing reading of what's emerged over the last 20 years: "Catholic priest = pedo in everybody's mind now for a very good reason." R119

And I'll leave you to ponder the reasons for that perception. And whether that has anything to do with a population and a media primed for using any stick the Church offers them to beat them with.

by Anonymousreply 12103/01/2019

What other institutions are you referring to R121? Are they institutions that tell people how they should lead their lives and judge those they deem sinners? Any institution playing that game had better make sure it is beyond reproach, but then Catholicism is queen of 'Do as I say not as I do'.

by Anonymousreply 12203/01/2019

R122 For example, the BBC here in the UK. Omnipresent, moralising and state-subsidised with a tax which, if you don't pay it, gets you a criminal record. Check up their treatment of the egregious Jimmy Saville case.

But I'm also including: national childrens' homes, national education, the Football Association, the Scouting movement, the National Health Service, other Churches and religious institutions. All of them, statistically, have levels of abuse like the the Catholic Church but we never hear that in the media. For sure, only a few of them claim a moral authority as the Church does but their influence on the young is undoubted.

A Church should be held to higher standards, however, I do agree with you - simply because of what it claims to represent. But the ridiculous idea repeated very often on this thread that, "Catholic priest = pedo in everybody's mind now for a very good reason" reveals that very powerful forces hostile to the Catholic Church have also completely framed this narrative. Not only is it not true about the Church it's also completely unbalanced. Much more abuse occurs in families but no-one would say, "Father of a family = pedo in everybody's mind now for a very good reason" - even though the stats and evidence show the rates are higher than in the Catholic Church. But we don't say that because that's not the way the media have spun the story of family abuse, nor, indeed, what people want to believe about families.

A bit more lucidity - as R112 wrote - is what I'm advocating.

by Anonymousreply 12303/01/2019

R121 - really? Could you please give some citations of the stats you talk about that indicate catholic priests and brothers are no more likely than other religious groups to offend?

Just that we have recently had a two year Royal Commission into institutional child abuse here in Oz - and while there have been abusers and predators of every stripe - the Catholic Church seems to harbour a disproportionately high number of ‘em.

You sound like the Pell defenders here - unable to accept that the Catholic Church is anything less that perfect and that it’s just the odd bad apple. Which may well be! - but Jesus wept! - those bad apples had a massive support group of enablers and protectors behind them to make sure that they were looked after and the victims were ignored, shamed, blamed or paid off with non disclosure agreements. The whole process was like a factory production line! - which would tend to indicate they’re no stranger to the process...

I have a lot of sympathy and compassion for their victims - but none whatsoever for that corrupt, defiled church. And what do they care? The west isn’t their focus now. The money is to be made in developing countries - and you just know that there are kids there being used and abused by these supposed men of the cloth as if nothing has changed.

Pity the poor church? Go to Hell.

by Anonymousreply 12403/01/2019

R124

Happy to. Whilst it's from the wikipedia article linked to - everything is footnoted from reports, articles and reputable evidence which you can check - and specific mention of the situation in Australia which you raise:

Philip Jenkins, professor at the Department of Religion and History at Penn State University, questioned the theses of increased sexual abuse among priests, saying the percentage of priests accused of molesting minors is 1.8%, much of which is not about pedophilia alone.[338]

Hofstra University researcher Charol Shakeshaft was the author of a report on sexual offenses in schools. As she said, the problem of sexual violence is much more serious in schools than in the Church.[339]

"Think the Catholic Church has a problem? (...) The physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

Despite this, the media ignored information about sexual violence in schools and did not inform about them. Instead, they focused on the Catholic Church. According to the report, up to 422,000 students from California will be victims of sexual violence in the future.[339] A report issued by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR) in 2002 stated that contrary to popular opinion, there are more allegations of pedophilia in Protestant congregations than Catholic ones, and that sexual violence is most often committed by volunteers rather than by priests.[340]

It also criticized the way the media reported sexual crimes in Australia. The Royal Commission in Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse revealed that between January 1950 and February 2015, 4,445 people alleged incidents of child sexual abuse in 4,765 claims. The media reportedly reported that as many as 7% of priests were accused of being a pedophile, but ignored the same report on the Protestant Churches and Jehovah's Witnesses; Gerard Henderson stated[341]:

"That’s 2,504 incidents or allegations in the period between 1977, when the Uniting Church was formed, and 2017. This compares with 4,445 claims with respect to the Catholic Church between 1950 and 2015. And the Catholic Church is five times larger than the Uniting Church. Moreover, the Royal Commission did not include allegations in the period 1950 to 1977 with respect to the Presbyterian, Congregational and Methodist communities which folded into the Uniting Church in 1977. This would take the number of allegations beyond 2,504, especially since it seems that child sexual abuse was at its worst in the 1960s and 1970s. (...) Allegations against the Jehovah Witness religion, on a per capita basis, are dramatically higher than for either the Catholic or the Uniting churches." — Gerard Henderson

by Anonymousreply 12503/01/2019

The Catholic Church has been abusing children for centuries and continues to abuse them worldwide. To grasp at isolated cases of alledged child abuse as a means of deflection and moral mitigation is monstrously absurd.

by Anonymousreply 12603/01/2019

R125 - so you wanna quibble about the percentages? You feel the Catholic Church is being poorly done by here?

Well - as has been said - there is abuse by members of religious orders across the spectrum. But instead of carrying on and on about how Catholic priests aren’t all that bad in comparison - why not look at the church’s response to the victims. Instead of mindlessly barracking for your religion of choice like it’s some football team you’re rooting for - why don’t you put your energy into acknowledging the church’s woeful conduct and treatment of victims - and doing something about that?

The Catholic Church is huge and wealthy and the protecting of perpetrators and mistreatment and smearing of victims has been on an industrial scale.

Don’t you think it’s a pretty low bar to be just trying to argue that your priests are no worse than anyone else? As if there’s some conspiracy here! When if the church itself had actually done something, faced the problem years ago when it all began to come out - and behaved nobly and honorably and treated victims with kindness and compassion and decency - instead of an inconvenient PR problem! - then perhaps everyone wouldn’t be so down on them?

And face it - for all their holier than thou attitude - it’s simply about maintaining the church’s wealth and the status quo. They’re terrified they will be bankrupted paying out on all the abuse claims. It’s all about the money.

Despicable hypocrites. Vile.

by Anonymousreply 12703/01/2019

The canonization process of Pope Pius XII dates to shortly after his death in 1958. He was declared a Servant of God in 1990 and Venerable in 2009. Father Peter Gumpel is currently the relator of Pius XII's cause for canonization.

Another Catholic mass murderer on his way to canonization.

by Anonymousreply 12803/01/2019

R128 But has he been canonised or not? Is he called St Pius XII? No hasn't.

End of.

R127 Ah, well then you should have made yourself clearer. You're not actually interested in any (more) facts and certainly not in correcting any errors. You're just interested in taxing me as some kind of twisted apologist for the Catholic Church trying to spin this situation in the best way I can. So let me clear: When a member of the clergy has been found guilty of child abuse (not accused of it) they should be thrown out of the clergy, excommunicated from the Church and whatever civil penalty their nation decides (and in some places that might still be the death penalty) that penalty should be applied. Bishops and Cardinals who are proven to have deliberately stonewalled public investigation should be likewise treated.

Since most of the abuse has been done by gay priests going after adolescents (see the John Jay Report for the 80% statistic on this abuse of 12-17 year old boys) I would - for the forseeable future - remove all gay seminarians from seminary and would request that priests who are gay also leave the ministry. (Few will do that, of course.)

Most of these measures are the measures Pope Benedict XVI tried to have implemented in the Church WITHOUT the co-operation of many Bishops and Cardinals. He should have threatened them with excommunication for refusing to co-operate. But he was too weak or too indulgent. His error. Pope Francis, on the other hand, talks the talk but does not walk the walk at all and has, I would argue, a TERRIBLE record on facilitating abusers including restoring the priesthood an abuser who had been penalised by Pope Benedict.

I appreciate that this all falls on your deaf ears.

Do enjoy your time seeking mob justice. That has nothing to do with the truth and - as far as I can tell - more to do with your hatred of the Catholic Church. Mobs, of course, believe themselves entirely justified in doing what they do. It's crystal clear to them.

Just like you.

Have a GREAT day.

by Anonymousreply 12903/01/2019

The Catholic Church apologists like R125/R129 have arrived en masse.

Don't you dirtball scumbags have anything better to do, like diddle young boys, rape nuns, or have drag contests in your flowing robes and exquisite jewelry.

by Anonymousreply 13003/01/2019

And R125/R129 and all the other Church defenders on here, I'm going to put this plain and simple so even a pseudo-intellectual such as yourself can understand it.

Sexually abusing children is a crime, a felony. Aiding and abetting criminals is a crime, another felony.

Ergo, the abuser and his protector are BOTH criminals and should do the appropriate hard time in prison. As Ina Garten would say, now how easy is that?

Stop trying to obfuscate with your bullshit. Who do you think you are: Donald Trump (another gangster who has never been punished for his crimes).

by Anonymousreply 13103/01/2019

In my opinion The Vatican treasure vaults and museums should be liquidated to pay off every person who can prove they were the victims of priestly sexual abuse. It should also be stripped of city/statehood and be converted into just another section of the city of Rome. The Church will always exist in one form or another. But it needs to be about 1/100th the size it is now. Reduce it in size and wealth and it will be equally reduced in power.

by Anonymousreply 13203/01/2019

[quote]Why do people readily accept this abuse happens in the church, but if anyone points out the same behavior in DC or Hollywood they are called insane or a conspiracy theorist?

Hollywood is full of Jews and homosexuals, so it always attracts the usual garden variety antisemites and homophobes who think everything good that happens to anyone Jewish and/or gay is part of a conspiracy. In truth, it is Christians and Muslims alone who are engaged in a conspiracy. Multiple ones as a matter of fact. All of them with genocidal end goals.

These two death cults need to be destroyed or they will destroy humanity as we know it.

by Anonymousreply 13303/01/2019

R27 I get that though. I'm not Catholic but I went to Georgetown. Catholic Social teaching is lovely and we used to go to Holy Trinity Church just to hear the sermons that were a tour-de-force of philosophy. So I can see hating the institution but liking the faith. Of course some people can't do that.

by Anonymousreply 13403/01/2019

R44 I know a lot of Catholics and I don't know a single one that supports Trump. What Circle do you travel in?

by Anonymousreply 13503/01/2019

R131 Why THANK YOU for repeating back to me what I already said:

"So let me clear: When a member of the clergy has been found guilty of child abuse (not accused of it) they should be thrown out of the clergy, excommunicated from the Church and whatever civil penalty their nation decides (and in some places that might still be the death penalty) that penalty should be applied. Bishops and Cardinals who are proven to have deliberately stonewalled public investigation should be likewise treated."

You then came along to explain to me this:

"Sexually abusing children is a crime, a felony. Aiding and abetting criminals is a crime, another felony.

Ergo, the abuser and his protector are BOTH criminals and should do the appropriate hard time in prison."

Which is exactly the same thing as I'd already said, minus the Church's excommunication part and my willingness to see the death penalty to be applied which I don't see you subscribing to.

People just see what they want to see.

It's called prejudice.

And your anti-Catholic prejudice is as clear as day. You're just not used to being called out on it.

by Anonymousreply 13603/01/2019

Christians are smarmy. I realized last night that’s why I dislike them. How can they sit there and smile while projecting their inferiority and depravity onto me and distorting the Torah to justify it? They make me sick. Muslims are even worse for the same reason, but at least they’re upfront about wanting to kill you and destroy everything that you value.

by Anonymousreply 13703/01/2019

R137 for some reason that reflects on you, you're conflating religions here. I don't know a single Christian who quotes the Torah.

by Anonymousreply 13803/01/2019

So let me get this straight, R136. I attended Catholic school from kindergarten through 4 years of college. I was an altar boy from 5th grade through high school. My aunt was a nun and Cathic hospital administrator. And yet I am anti Catholic and have anti Catholic prejudices. Wow, you are just like the Trump gangsters: you are either for me or against me, there's no middle ground.

by Anonymousreply 13903/01/2019

[quote]I bet 92 percent of Catholics would remain active members of the church even if it rebranded honestly as “The Holy Roman Catholic Church: The World’s Largest Child-Rape Factory, Plus Hoarders of Gold.”

The church has been bleeding parishioners since the abuse scandals hit, so I'd take that bet.

A Pew survey found that, as of 2015, while 32% of Americans were raised Catholic, just 21% remained so. That drop off is more than twice the rate at which Americans left Protestantism. Church attendance also fell sharply.

by Anonymousreply 14003/01/2019

R123 The BBC? Really? That just betrays your right wing tendencies and makes your defense of the Catholic church even more sinister. You can point the finger at other child abusing organisations but Catholic priests are still leaders in the field and it does nothing to clean the massively filthy stain the Catholic church is today, it has an appalling reputation which it has thoroughly earned. Catholicism, like all other religions, is a ridiculous load of bollocks that does much more harm than good. Shame on you for asking for sympathy for that rotten, child abusing, closet-case ridden cult.

by Anonymousreply 14103/01/2019

So Pell is being held in Isolation and is apparently quite sick, with two heart conditions.

by Anonymousreply 14203/01/2019

Lapsed Catholic. However, I liked the new Pope. I was hoping the church was changing for the better. And now it's all gone to hell. Plain and simple.

by Anonymousreply 14303/01/2019

R139 Like I said in an earlier reply, R112 calls for nuance, not for black and white. I agree with his assessment. But I don't agree with yours nor where it comes from: I can hear the axes grinding from here.

R141 Yes, the BBC. Absolutely the BBC. In the UK its influence is far, far more far-reaching than the Catholic Church's.

"Catholicism, like all other religions, is a ridiculous load of bollocks that does much more harm than good. Shame on you for asking for sympathy for that rotten, child abusing, closet-case ridden cult."

So, in fact, along comes these scandals - which are heinously evil and for some of them I would quite liberally use the death penalty in response (would you?) - but they simply confirm your pre-existent hatred for the Church and allow you to feel morally superior in doing so. But, of course, if it hadn't been that it would have been something else. There's no discussion possible with such attitudes.

And presently, you're the in the mob.

Well done.

by Anonymousreply 14403/01/2019

R144 All religion is a joke, but I still have an opinion on the criminal behavior of those who run it, and it can only be a very poor one given the facts. I don't deal in moral superiority, that's Catholic ( and other religiously minded types ) currency and how hypocritical of them given how they turn a blind eye to the horrors of their organization . With your Gammon-esque hatred of the BBC ( plus your pride in favouring the death penalty ) you just add to your self portrait of cliched reactionary and come to the discussion with as much bias as you accuse me of.

by Anonymousreply 14503/01/2019

R145 "I don't deal in moral superiority"

Come back to me when you're a little bit more lucid about yourself. If I've identified your posts correctly, on this issue at least, you deal in little else.

by Anonymousreply 14603/01/2019

According to you R146 a right wing Catholic who thinks the BBC is a danger and wants to hang 'em high, sounds like you're the one looking down your nose from an imaginary place on high.

by Anonymousreply 14703/01/2019

R147 "According to you [R146] a right wing Catholic who thinks the BBC is a danger and wants to hang 'em high, sounds like you're the one looking down your nose from an imaginary place on high."

In that post you merely confirm both your resolutely ingrained tendency to moralise and your spectacular lack of self-awareness about doing so.

Bravo. You're at a "Michael Jackson Fan" level of wilful ignorance.

I think we're done here.

Cheerio.

by Anonymousreply 14803/01/2019

R147: You're talking to a right wing troll who is not gay and doesn't belong here, but also isn't even Catholic as the troll supports the death penalty against the teaching of the church. FF and ban the trifling little bitch and have a drink to celebrate your triumph, you beat him before any argument even started.

by Anonymousreply 14903/01/2019

R148 I consider my description of you factual beyond reproach, you have as much bias as you accuse me of, except yours results in defending someone convicted of pedophilia and an institution that fosters the practice . R149 I know they are either shit stirring interlopers or sincere loons, but it can be fun to give them enough rope either way. You're right tho', it's probably best to ignore them into oblivion.

by Anonymousreply 15003/01/2019

I’m having problems with the pro-Catholic at any cost poster.

So - it seems like you’re upset coz you feel the Catholic Church is being unfairly targeted here as they’re just one of many organisations and institutions who abuse and hurt kids and other vulnerable people.

And fair enough - there are many othes that do abuse and hurt! Schools - both private and public - the military, sporting organisations - and arts organisations - charities - any big group can have this kind of thing happen - it’s not just the Catholic Church. We get that.

BUT - in this case - Pell - it is about the Catholic Church. And he’s the highest ranking of that church - so far! - to be called in this. And convicted. And there have been many others in recent times - and clearly in the exposure of these stories - it becomes onbiois how the church hierarchy has gone out of its way to support the perpetrators rather than the victims. So why wouldn’t reasonable people get angry and resent an organisation that did this?

This is a story that’s happening right now - so you’ll have to excuse everyone for talking about it. And if some people are perceived as anti-catholic just now - can you blame them? And what exactly are average, ‘good’ Catholics doing to demand a better church? Are they able to communicate with their church’s leaders that they need to do much better?

I suspect the Vatican remains aloof and above such petty concerns - and only ever really tries to change course when they see problems on the bottom line of a balance sheet.

And eventually this will blow over. And there’ll be another scandal somewhere - and people will say negative things about that organisation and want better scrutiny and oversight - until another scandal comes along. Maybe another catholic one? Because you just know there’ll be more to come...

by Anonymousreply 15103/01/2019

Hope this link - to an Oz weekly newsmagazine works...

by Anonymousreply 15203/01/2019

Ian Thorpe, when he was closeted, unemployed, living in the Hollywood Hills (why?) and pissing through his winnings and sponsorship earnings became a profile of Alan Jones when he lost his money. Jones set him up with the head of the WestPac Bank for refinancing.

by Anonymousreply 15303/05/2019

Sentencing today

by Anonymousreply 15403/12/2019

6 years, with 3 years 8 months non-parole period. The entire sentencing was on TV in Australia.

by Anonymousreply 15503/12/2019

Parole in 3+ years

by Anonymousreply 15603/12/2019

Did any other Australians see the ABC 4 Corners episode on Pell? Sickening.

Plenty of evidence and multiple witnesses corroborate that Pell has been a pedaeophile for decades preying on boys as young as 7 and 8 years old. These two choir boys which have been why he was prosecuted and found guilty are only a small part of his paedophilia over the decades. Imagine the lives he has destroyed - most of them too ashamed to come forward because of who he was and their devotion to their church. Not to mention the fear of not being believed. I heard some woman on the ABC Victoria news tonight say he effectively killed the second choir boy by proxy.

The bullshit being repeatedly posted above about a conspiracy because he had enemies in Rome is just that - bullshit. Pell is a filthy predator and paedophile who raped young boys (never females) and covered up his own and his colleagues paedophilia for decades because he felt he could get away with anything and was above human decency and the law. Hope he dies in prison and is never to destroy another person life again.

by Anonymousreply 15703/13/2019

^ I refuse to watch this video or any Four Corners show.

The filmmakers think they're Stanley Kubrick. Every scene has over-DRAMAtic music, with actors doing 'dramatisations' of undocumented gossip, plot points withheld until later in the episode to increase the DRAMA!

They love doing womens stories with lots of weeping music.

by Anonymousreply 15803/13/2019

You must be thinking of another show R158 or completely out of your mind (which I suspect you are). The ABC Australia is a very serious broadcaster and most respected source of news in Australia. No music. No dramatisations or undocumented gossip.

That episode was particularly shocking - detailing decades of his paedophilia to little children.

by Anonymousreply 15903/14/2019

Everything that the ABC presents is thoroughly vetted (just like Leaving Neverland was). The 4 Corners report on Pell which ran about 40 minutes by was brilliant. Went through the allegations in chronically order and also the fact the the choir boy from 1996 first went to police in 2012. The pool boys from the 1970s went to the media in about 2015 without ANY knowledge of the choir boy allegation. It was very clear that George Pell had a pattern of child abuse. I do suspect though that he will win his appeal but I hope not. It will be a blow to the victims of all child abuse crimes.

by Anonymousreply 16003/14/2019

The word on the street in Australia is that the appeal will have to be a really good one to get up. You could see from the sentencing how seriously and judiciously everyone involved has been treating this case.

Also, the recent Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex Abuse is said to have redacted a lot of stuff about Pell because of the upcoming court case, and that will all be released - presumably after the appeal - so stay tuned.

by Anonymousreply 16103/14/2019

They seem to really know how to pick their victims out of the crowd. I'm not blaming the victims, but some kids would scream bloody murder and report them. And some kids don't, until years later- or never. That' s the ones the pervs go after.

by Anonymousreply 16203/14/2019

Of course they know how to pick their victims R162. That is a predators main talent - to know exactly which victims they can abuse and exert power over. That's what paedophiles do.

I was stunned to learn after watching the 4 Corners piece that Pell was doing this since the 1970s! What a fucking bastard and all that revolting, hateful, offensive shit he said about gays over the decades. Pell's exerted power/opinions are one of the reasons we have only just had same sex marriage legalised here. I hear he's been separated in prison due to safety concerns. I'm sure the inmates would love to get their hands on such a notorious paedophile. If there really is a god then Pell will die a lonely, degrading, slow and excruciatingly painful death while still incarcerated.

You're absolutely right R161. Everyone is being so careful to do and say everything by the book so that nothing can be used in the appeal. I fear his conviction will be overturned on appeal now that he has been made an example of but I'm still hopeful it will stick. We'll see in June.

by Anonymousreply 16303/14/2019

At least they tried and convicted him in a court of law. That rarely seems to happen in the US.

by Anonymousreply 16403/14/2019

R102 The Pope blamed the degenerate US church. Meanwhile the misdeeds of priest and nuns were happening internationally. So it just wasn't closeted gay priests that were responsible foe this mess. It was the entire body of The Roman Catholic Church.

by Anonymousreply 16503/14/2019

The American Catholic Church finally laid down some strict guidelines as to how to handle the pedophiles and those that cover up. BUT the Vatican told them it was a no go! Huge mistake on the Vatican's part. A third of American Catholics are walking away. And when more scandal is revealed, more will leave.

by Anonymousreply 16603/14/2019
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