A Sociologist Examines the “White Fragility” That Prevents White Americans from Confronting Racism

White people, or rather white Americans, are not the source of all evil in the world. However, constantly telling them they are probably has more to do with the negative reaction than anything else. As with all groups of people, there are good people and bad ones.

Painting everyone in a particular group with a single brush, especially a tainted one, is hardly conducive furthering understanding or empathy towards others.

I would no more assume all black people are criminals because the vast majority of people incarcerated are black than I would assume all white people are "fragile" and racists. If you designate someone with a negative label, he will, naturally, become unwilling to continue in any meaningful dialog.

[quote]In more than twenty years of running diversity-training and cultural-competency workshops for American companies, the academic and educator Robin DiAngelo has noticed that white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism.

Or, Robin DiAngelo is just bad at her job.

It's in our nature to be self centered and see value in ourselves. But most of us, and that includes white people, grow up with the belief that for whatever reason (not rich / strong / pretty / intelligent / tall / popular / talented / manly / womanly / etc. enough) we don't have enough value and that breeds insecurity and a need for a superior vs. inferior hierarchy system to feel better about ourselves.

Racism is a desperate need to make yourself worthy by making others less worthy or unworthy (aka inferior) and in the process make yourself feel better about yourself (aka feeling superior).

Of course people get defensive and feel threatened when the expressions of their insecurities (like the need for a superior vs. inferior hierarchy system or the so called status quo) are challenged.

More propaganda from PC Social Justice Warriors. It's crap like this that will keep Trump and his kind in power for quite some time to come.

R1 The first fragile white snowflake to land.

[quote] White people, or rather white Americans, are not the source of all evil in the world.

White defensiveness and misrepresentation of criticism. Check

[quote] However, constantly telling them they are probably has more to do with the negative reaction than anything else.

Addressing racism is the cause of racism. Check

[quote] I would no more assume all black people are criminals because the vast majority of people incarcerated are black than I would assume all white people are "fragile" and racists.

Complete ignorance of how black communities are disproportionately policed and incarcerated at higher rates for low level offenses than white counterparts. Check

More racially charged bullshit.

More class issues blamed on race.

This Sociologist and her meanderings are for PC snowflakes only.

The solution.

[quote] More class issues blamed on race.

Paragraph 2:

[quote] They will point to friends and family members of color, a history of civil-rights activism, or a more “salient” issue, such as class or gender.

You're making the case that I have to buy this book and I really don't want to.

Clearly she did her data collection on DL. The inability of the OP and posters to recognize structural racism’s impact demonstrates the blind spot.

R9 DL is the microcosm. Also, your insinuations are wrong. I posted this for the benefit of the fragile caucasians here.

D’Angelo? I will not be lectured to on white racism by an Italian. They practically invented it. Hell, they got the ball rolling on illegal immigration and the displacement of the indigenous peoples of Turtle Island which they renamed America after Amerigo Vespucci. Then after Italy became a nation they allied with Hitler and still don’t have gay marriage. You break it, you bought it, bitch!

I’d rather live among blacks, Mexicans, and Asians then those goddamn wop fascists.

White fragility lol can you believe this retarded cunt.

White people are not fragile or thin-skinned regarding "racism". They simply just do not give a fuck what these attention-starved snowflake eternal victims in their own minds think of them. Get it through your head.

It's all fine and dandy to confront other people's fragility until the moment someone mentions Black homophobia.

Q: What’s the Italian word for “racist”?

A: Italian!

I don't need to be dominant - but I want to be equal. We have been compensating for 50 years with affirmative action, Equal Opportunity and diversity programs in the workplace. Unfortunately there will always be prejudiced idiots - but there are small populations that exist in every demographic - and you can't legislate punishment for people's ignorant opinions. Wasn't the fight for the last 50 years to see everyone as equal? Seems like we are now going backwards. Why are white men so under attack - it seems counter to the last 5 decades. When do we get to the students being admitted to universities are the best qualified regardless of race, creed, color, gender or sexual preference? How did it become possible that I could be told at age 49 my career advancement was over because I was a white male over 50 (or soon to be)? Shouldn't it always be the best qualified? I am sick of people playing their card - Hillary disappointed my greatly when she played the woman card . It made her seem weak.

r4 - I'm sure you won't believe this, but I am not white, nor would I defend any group, white or otherwise, simply based on race, religion, or socio-economic status.

The existence of structural racism is not in dispute. My point was that haranguing people as racist does worse than nothing to create an open dialog. What it does is close people's minds to any further discussion, let alone well-reasoned argument.

[quote]Complete ignorance of how black communities are disproportionately policed and incarcerated at higher rates for low level offenses than white counterparts. Check

Of all the misreading of my position, I find this the most interesting. While I definitely agree that some communities are policed more heavily and certainly access to better representation results in much lower incarceration rates, I think it fails to recognize that lack of education and other opportunities and general hopelessness for bettering ones life drive crime, not race. Race, as such, does not make one more or less inclined to commit crimes. As a practical matter, white collar crimes are more often committed by, well, white people, as they are more often in the position to commit such crimes.

Where we disagree is whether berating white people for being racists is helpful for reducing racism. On the one hand, one could argue that identifying problems correctly is the first step to solving them effectively and efficiently. Whereas, one could also argue that incendiary tactics are more likely to drive people to dig in and double down - not racism is the cause of racism, as you put. Rather, the argument I'm making is the proverbial flies with honey vs. vinegar because it not only does not alienate people who are not racists, but also is more likely to appeal to people who are.

R8, I'm not proving anything. My POINT is different to the author's, that's it.

I believe racism exists "systemically" insofar that there are racists in positions of power and in wealth, but for every black person who is poor and is for example, unjustly incarcerated, there is a white man in the same position.

Making this an issue of race solves nothing unless you have a tangible issue which can be solved. My takeaway is, it's offensive to say you don't see color(?) Okay.

Some people think that a proper discussion of race includes non-white people monologuing and haranguing, and white people listening meekly and agreeing, or confessing their own culpability in racist acts, as a way of inviting more haranguing.

Ain't nobody got time for that, outside liberal arts colleges anyway.

[quote] Of all the misreading of my position, I find this the most interesting. While I definitely agree that some communities are policed more heavily and certainly access to better representation results in much lower incarceration rates, I think it fails to recognize that lack of education and other opportunities and general hopelessness for bettering ones life drive crime, not race. Race, as such, does not make one more or less inclined to commit crimes. As a practical matter, white collar crimes are more often committed by, well, white people, as they are more often in the position to commit such crimes.

Your argument in your previous post was that it would be as ludicrous to assume most white people were racist or fragile as it would be to assume most black people are criminals because of the higher incarnation rates. You realize now how absurd this analogy is without examining the root causes of this incarceration rate. The root cause is in fact racism and harm inflicted on black communities through generations of American Apartheid. Furthermore, most black people are not in prison, but most of the white electorate did indeed vote for the despicable racist occupying the White House. What can be inferred there? Your analogy, made in good faith, is optimism to the point of fantasy and it still distorts the reality and ubiquitousness of racism in this country.

[quote] Rather, the argument I'm making is the proverbial flies with honey vs. vinegar because it not only does not alienate people who are not racists, but also is more likely to appeal to people who are.

We'll beg to differ on whether or not Oprah style sit downs about white supremacists being reformed by the kindness of ethnics is actually true to life. I don't think this is true of the vast majority of any type of bigot and and the "be nice, you're being divisive" line, to me, is another form of sit down and shut up. It takes nothing but a black athlete kneeling during the national anthem to cause whites in this country to collectively blow a gasket. Is it the fault of the person who takes a knee? I say no.

She and others in the “diversity industry” would be putting themselves out of a job if they didn’t claim Whites were always racist. As with 99.9% of everything, follow the money.

R19 [quote] Some people think that a proper discussion of race includes non-white people monologuing and haranguing, and white people listening meekly and agreeing, or confessing their own culpability in racist acts, as a way of inviting more haranguing. Ain't nobody got time for that, outside liberal arts colleges anyway.

The author of the book is white. Lower your defenses-- whites still do most of the talking on matters of race in any setting or context. You've obviously made up your mind about who's worth listening to.

I work on a college campus r22. Generally, white women are the most obnoxious SJWs (Asian American women come in at a close second).

Most of the responses to OP only prove that they’re correct. Clap back, clap back. Wow.

[quote] She and others in the “diversity industry” would be putting themselves out of a job if they didn’t claim Whites were always racist. As with 99.9% of everything, follow the money.

I too believe the "diversity industry" illuminati and financial incentive being a much more probable explanation for this woman's motivations than having an enlightened cultural view and empathy towards 'non-whites'.

DiAngelo is probably not someone who wants to have an open discussion based on intellectual reasoning if it does not fall within the confines of "white people are the aggressor". But racism is not solely a white issue as any human being is capable of prejudice based on race, which she and her kind forget. Considering the tone of these people toward whites which wreak of condescension and bias, it is not surprising that a white person would react defensively about that one would act defensively. After all, most people when asked about an issue of racism, like most things, will relate back to themselves. If they are not racist they most don't surround thsemlves with racists and hence are not exposed to it, so it is no surprise that these people will be shocked when hyperbolic generalizations are made about their race.

I really believe that discussing race like this just fuels racist thought in the form of often contrarian backlash, which I will admit, is very understandable.

At the end of the day only so much can be done to stop racism, laws are put into place, education is required in schools, but how an individual is effected by these measures is a personal matter. Laws shape behavior and society very well. An example of this would be indoor smoking bans, which has arguably curtailed smoking more than any health campaign or scolding could do. When we reach a peak with what can be done in regard to race, then comes the psychologists, writers and "culture keepers" - - as I'm sure they regard themselves - - who are left with the policing of thought. Racism will always exist. It's biological.

I too teach in a University. The very worst offenders are the female white or black professors (usually with huge asses, btw) constantly invoking race. They are the ones who incite the students in order to further their departmental or administrative ambitions.

By the way, describing white people who do not engage with these endless pointless conversations about race as "fragile" is wrong. Their non-engagement is rather "toughness"

I want dominance. Gays have earned it.

You all keep proving that DiAngelo has a very valid point. Most white Americans are thin skinned when it comes to racism. Most of the responses are defensive and not a little hostile. Check your privilege.

[quote] By the way, describing white people who do not engage with these endless pointless conversations about race as "fragile" is wrong. Their non-engagement is rather "toughness"

Whites not engaging in conversations about race. Good one.

Dee, meet Fensive.

You don't understand what has happened to the humanities in American Universities, R30. Race is sometimes the ONLY conversation. Half the courses in the humanities invoke it.

I also think Western America has done a great job at eradicating racism in all its forms and that it is the remnants of racist thought and action basically just exist among the poor, mentally ill and uneducated. Solve those issues, which are for more pressing and you will alleviate this symptom. When I talk to people from certain parts of Latin America and poorer parts of the world, they are far more racist.

"It takes nothing but a black athlete kneeling during the national anthem to cause whites in this country to collectively blow a gasket. Is it the fault of the person who takes a knee? I say no."

No, that's not why "whites collectively blow a gasket". It's the tone-deafness of the kneelers that's at issue. What makes them think that it's ok to make a polarizing political statement while on the clock at their job? Would you get away with that on YOUR job? People sit down to watch a football game to relax and enjoy the game, not watch some narcissistic attention whore whine about the country and white people. It's also the lack of self-awareness....you have black men making tens of millions for throwing a ball around on a field in a country that provides such an amazing opportunity to them. But STILL, they whine like little bitches.

If someone is so unhappy here in this "evil racist" country they can either:

a) GTFO

b) take the country away from the "evil white people". (SPOILER: not gonna happen)

c) live your life with dignity instead of wallowing in victimhood and take advantage of what this country has to offer like millions of OTHER successful and happy minorities that live here

R32 Jordan Peterson vids are rotting your mind.

R29 is an obvious troll.

r35 I'm a leftist in the humanities and r32 has a point.

[quote]White people are not fragile or thin-skinned regarding "racism". They simply just do not give a fuck what these attention-starved snowflake eternal victims in their own minds think of them. Get it through your head.

Exactly.

I don't give a shit about Black peoples problems.

R34 Black athletes are not your property. Compulsory patriotism is not what this country is founded on. You should leave if you desire that.

White fragility in full swing. Don't get them started on "southern heritage."

Are "microaggressions" the very definition of fragility?

So fragile, so delicate. Like Blanche DuBois. Ah want mayagic....ah wants much white supremacy, sugah.

I never said that R39. Nobody is demanding the football players dress in Uncle Sam outfits cheer about the US. They are choosing to make a political statement while on the job, a statement that most people find ridiculous and offensive.

Tell me, has the kneeling done anything to help the black community? Has it made a difference in any way? HAS IT MADE THINGS BETTER? We both know the answer is no.

[quote]Your argument in your previous post was that it would be as ludicrous to assume most white people were racist or fragile as it would be to assume most black people are criminals because of the higher incarnation rates. You realize now how absurd this analogy is without examining the root causes of this incarceration rate. The root cause is in fact racism and harm inflicted on black communities through generations of American Apartheid. Furthermore, most black people are not in prison, but most of the white electorate did indeed vote for the despicable racist occupying the White House. What can be inferred there? Your analogy, made in good faith, is optimism to the point of fantasy and it still distorts the reality and ubiquitousness of racism in this country.

Your argument is equally flawed because it continues to recast my position incorrectly. Additionally, attributing all higher incarceration rates to racism does not take into consideration actual crimes committed. Dismissing actual crimes as a result of "American Apartheid" is apologist - belied by the fact that the majority of black people do not commit crimes. Committing crimes is still a matter of choice, irrespective of circumstances - no one has to commit a crime, we're not talking about a bunch of Jean Valjean's stealing a loaf of bread to feed starving children.

[quote]We'll beg to differ on whether or not Oprah style sit downs about white supremacists being reformed by the kindness of ethnics is actually true to life. I don't think this is true of the vast majority of any type of bigot and and the "be nice, you're being divisive" line, to me, is another form of sit down and shut up. It takes nothing but a black athlete kneeling during the national anthem to cause whites in this country to collectively blow a gasket. Is it the fault of the person who takes a knee? I say no.

You are NEVER going to convince outright racists - KKK, neo-nazi, white supremacist, militia people - not to be racist. There is no argument, discussion, facts, data, or analysis that will ever convince them to reconsider their ingrained racism.

I don't believe that the majority of people fall into this category. If they did, then an academic treatise like DiAngelo's would be even more irrelevant and useless - she would be, in fact, preaching to the choir. As polarized as the US is right now, I believe that the majority of people hover just right or left of center.

The issue is whether people who "might" be open to rethinking their ideas would be alienated. While it might be more satisfying to call people out, the question is whether that achieves true change and improvement - what does one hope to gain and accomplish by alienating the very people who MUST change in order for real change to occur?

Wouldn't the notion of "White Fragility" as the cause or source of anything only appeals to people who already believe such a phenomenon exists while alienating all other constituencies?

As a final point, it appears that her entire premise is anecdotal, rather than being based on a rigorous academic study - though I'm basing that on the article, not a reading of her boo - which would only further alienate people as it appears that much less substantiated. Whatever validity there might be in such a position is eroded by lack of discipline and peer review.

R43 Compulsory oaths to a nation are also a political statement. One they wish to not engage in while racism and disproportionate police violence an encounters are so prevalent in their country.

[quote] Committing crimes is still a matter of choice, irrespective of circumstances - no one has to commit a crime, we're not talking about a bunch of Jean Valjean's stealing a loaf of bread to feed starving children.

I'll just leave this here before I get to the rest of your comments.

"white people are sensationally, histrionically bad at discussing racism"

This will surely provoke a nuanced, thoughtful, and productive discussion.

Actually, you know, R44 I think I'm good. I've done enough reasoning today. I'm pooped.

"She argues that our largely segregated society is set up to insulate whites from racial discomfort, so that they fall to pieces at the first application of stress—such as, for instance, when someone suggests that “flesh-toned” may not be an appropriate name for a beige crayon."

"Flesh" crayons were discontinued in 1962. The problem these "privilege" weenies is that their framework (and examples) stem from an essay penned in 1988. They continue to invoke and hearken back to arguments that are often old and outdated; younger generations are more apt to "push back" than older ones because they have grown up in a culture in which bandaids were NEVER "flesh" toned nor examples like "17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color."

This is the basis of their argument. Points like that.

The problem is that in "desiring" this "dialogue" about race is that it never celebrates successes or achievements, but either continually moves the goalposts ("microaggressions") or hearkens back to the sins of the past. In effect, they are never satisfied, just as the premise of white fragility supposes: anything less than complete and total deference and guilt is fragility/deflection/ignorance.

It's exhausting and people are well over it.

Why do I never hear Asians or Indians (from India) complaining about racism.

[quote] This will surely provoke a nuanced, thoughtful, and productive discussion.

Well it's certainly no "exhausting butthurt SJW libtards whining about nothing," kind of indictment.

r46 mentally ill people, black or white, have a tough time in jail.

[quote]I'll just leave this here before I get to the rest of your comments.

I will concede that my Valjean comment was both flip and fails to address what I agree is a systematic unequal treatment of poor (and often black) people by the criminal justice system, not to mention mentally ill or vulnerable people in society.

The story at r52 is ghastly.

Prison guards are the absolute worst humans.

"Over several decades, federal homeownership policies concentrated minority and/or poor families in neighborhoods where old, poorly maintained homes dominated the housing stock. One such policy, redlining, has resulted in a disproportionate exposure to environmental health hazards among low-income children and children of color. One of these health hazards is lead, which can result in poor development, including poor cognitive and behavioral outcomes that can lead to reduced academic success and lower lifetime income."

[quote]Most of the responses to OP only prove that they’re correct.

As you here demonstrate, this shows that the concept of white fragility for the "woke" is like false consciousness for Marxists , or denial for Freudians: you've created a thought-system where any attempt to disagree with your position just proves its supreme validity. Like Marxists and Freudians, you're ideologues--there's no point in arguing with you.

They’re just more polite about it r50. Besides that, you have no idea what they’re talking about when they converse with each other in their own language.

Let's constantly attack white people and accuse them of racism and hate. Surely that will endear them to us.

Black men sentenced to more time for committing the exact same crime as a white person, study finds

Is there any group that you couldn't write a fragility analysis on?

R60 Lesbians

Asians and Indians do complain about racism. Especially when it applies to college admissions. EVERY minority group complains about racism in some way because it exists. American society is racist. Why is this so hard to believe?

Racism is a social construct.

No. Racism is not a social construct. It is primal self-preservation. Which is why all of this song and dance is never going to eliminate "racism". It is not possible to ever completely eliminate it.

White people have to be blind to race in order to not be racist. What kind of bullshit is that? What are white people taught in their homes that they have to be colorblind in order to accept other races as equal?

Racism is partially a social construct. People used to identify as tribes like Igbo vs. Hausa or British vs. French. It wasn't this vague term "white"? The idea of a white race is a social construct.

[quote] I don't need to be dominant - but I want to be equal. We have been compensating for 50 years with affirmative action, Equal Opportunity and diversity programs in the workplace.

White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents

The University of Texas Austin was Abigail Fisher's dream school. Fisher, from Sugar Land, Texas, a wealthy Houston suburb, earned a 3.59 GPA in high school and scored an 1180 on the SATs.

Not bad, but not enough for the highly selective UT Austin in fall 2008; Fisher's dreams were dashed when she was denied admission.

In response, Fisher sued. Her argument? That applicants of color, whose racial backgrounds were included as a component of the university's holistic review process, were less-qualified students and had displaced her.

Students graduating in the top 10 percent of any Texas high school are granted an automatic spot at UT Austin. Other students are evaluated through a holistic review process including a race-blind review of essays and creating a personal achievement score based on leadership potential, honors and awards, work experience, and special circumstances that include socioeconomic considerations such as race.

A few are accepted through provisional slots that include attending a summer program prior to the fall. One black student, four Latino students, and 42 white students with lower scores than Fisher were accepted under these terms. Also rejected were 168 African-American and Latino students with better scores than Fisher.

. . . A 1995 report by the California Senate Government Organization Committee found that white women held a majority of managerial jobs (57,250) compared with African Americans (10,500), Latinos (19,000), and Asian Americans (24,600) after the first two decades of affirmative action in the private sector. In 2015, a disproportionate representation of white women business owners set off concerns that New York state would not be able to bridge a racial gap among public contractors.

A 1995 report by the Department of Labor found that 6 million women overall had advances at their job that would not have been possible without affirmative action. The percentage of women physicians tripled between 1970 and 2002, from 7.6 percent to 25.2 percent, and in 2009 women were receiving a majority of bachelor's, master's, and doctoral degrees, according to the American Association of University Women. To be clear, these numbers include women of all races; however, breaking down affirmative action beneficiaries by race and gender seems to be rare in reported data.

Contrary to popular belief, affirmative action isn't just black. It's white, too. But affirmative action's white female faces are rarely at the center of the conversation . . .

I would say that's more tribalism R66. Even tribes themselves, almost always consist of people of the same skin color.

THAT'S NOT FUNNY, R61

Could someone here point out to me at what time in american history, people of color passed laws so people with white skin couldn't sit here or could't eat there?

I'll wait . . .

Slavery was abolished 100 years before we were born. I'm not taking any heat for it. Suck it up, people.

How the U.S. Government Locked Black Americans Out of Attaining the American Dream

The wealth gap between white Americans and black Americans is stark. The median white family has somewhere between 10 and 16 times the net worth of the median black household, depending on who you ask. Between 2010 and 2013, as white households began to recover from the recession, black and Hispanic families saw their net worth drop an additional 20 percent.

Mehrsa Baradaran, a law professor at the University of Georgia, researches banking law, and how the U.S. government, in conjunction with the financial sector, has exacerbated economic inequality. In her new book, The Color of Money: Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap, she tracks the persistence of the racial wealth gap, from the end of slavery to today. Baradaran thoroughly diagnoses the ways the U.S. government and white-owned banks have historically shut out black Americans from prosperity, while boosting white Americans into the middle and upper classes. I talked with Baradaran about the structural causes of inequality, the cynical political messaging around black entrepreneurship by white politicians, and Jackie Robinson’s foray into banking.

This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.

Let’s start at the beginning. What is the genesis of the racial wealth gap?

It all starts with slavery. When we fought over slavery and, as an institution, it dissolved, we never confronted the justifications around it. Those things lingered, and so did this desire, this need—especially in the South—to use blacks as labor and not capital. Black bodies were capital, but blacks themselves could not control capital. They had to be labor. That lingered well after slavery.

In order to create wealth, you need capital. And if you are capital, and if you’re only subscribed to labor based on Jim Crow laws—which is exactly the purpose for Jim Crow in the southern economy, post-slavery—then you can’t build wealth. So that’s the genesis of the wealth gap. What I show in the book is that it doesn’t resolve itself. From the Civil War until today, the wealth gap has barely budged. In fact, the total amount of wealth owned by the black population has not grown at all appreciably—not noticeably—in the last 150 years.

You don’t actually need racists for this gap to get wider and wider.

You don’t actually need laws—and you don’t even need racists—for these things to work. You don’t need outright racism, you don’t need outright slavery for the wealth gap to perpetuate. Once you block a group of people from the mainstream arteries of commerce, they can’t create wealth. I show how the economy of segregation, the economy of exclusion, how that self-perpetuates. You don’t actually need racists for this gap to get wider and wider.

White people aren't fragile. They are strong.

This thread will end in tears

Also I'm sick of the "moral superiority of the oppressed" narrative

This thread is EXEMPLARY of white fragility. Did a white here go as far as saying ravosm has been "eliminated in the West"? LOL.

White people shouldn't discuss issues that effect marginalized and colored peoples. It's like a lay person talking about how to treat cancer. Really? Just shut up, and work to learn so that we can ELIMINATE racism.

Yes, r77. Because, for example, the Han Chinese certainly aren't racist toward non-Han ethnic minorities.

The Han Chinese admit they are racist though, unlike white Americans. Also, guess what, China has a form of affirmative action for ethnic minorities as well.

[quote] Also I'm sick of the "moral superiority of the oppressed" narrative

But you're not sick of white superiority or your own sense of personal superiority.

This thread is a textbook example of "white fragility". Nonwhites live with the real day to day consequences. Consequences that impact most every aspect of their lives, including their finances and their health. They push through it everyday. Whites have a complete meltdown and start throwing shit at the walls at the mere mention of what is objectively true. As if someone might find out a great big secret or as if white supremacy might suddenly be snatched away from your greedy little hands.

There is no end to it.

r80 has issues

Keep telling them r80. They won’t listen though.

Agree. R80.

R38 And kevin hart and dave chappell don't give a fuck about sensitive effeminate white queens hurt feelings either.

Just because you like a dick up your ass and in your mouth, doesn't mean your a minority who deserve special rights.

May the rightwing continue to eat you alive.

[quote] The Han Chinese admit they are racist though, unlike white Americans. Also, guess what, China has a form of affirmative action for ethnic minorities as well.

Affirmative action mainly benefits white women. Is that the "ethnic minority" to which you are referring?

White women always benefit from everything.

r56 said it best

Whites don’t care about blacks, racism, or any pther “black issues”.

Whites don’t think about blacks, ever.

Except when we have to interact with a black persons for some reason, and then we are immediately reminded of why our parents always warned us to avoid blacks.

I do see white people as fragile in a different kind of way. When white people get a taste of poverty they become so depressed and start overdosing on opioids or painkillers. Black families in the same financial situation are actually way more optimistic about the future. This is why I believe the division in America was widened-- white people aren't accustomed to poverty.

The effects atrocities of slavery are still present today. Look at the black community, still laughed at when they object to the use of blackface which has seemingly predominated fashion as an accessory or style this year. I try to feel sympathetic for whites who are allies but the majority of them prove to be bigoted or simply close minded when I bring up issues like reparations, having work forces which are 50% of colour (and 50% women btw).

"Let's constantly attack white people and accuse them of racism and hate. Surely that will endear them to us."

What the hell makes you think they want to endear us to them? They just want to be left alone. Are you functionality retarded?

R90 thank you. Whites ALWAYS succumb to drug abuse when times get tough. Black folks have struggled for generations so we are more strong willed. It's ironic since masculinity, strength and perseverance are in the West, "white" concepts perpetuated through ideallic white imagery.

Oh, yes. Racial minorities NEVER succumb to drug abuse. They also never use drugs. Nope. In fact, this is exclusively a white, American problem.

Sweeping generalizations (r89, r90, r93) don't make your arguments come off as particularly sophisticated.

R80 needs to be read closely, however, because what he announces is a world-view. Racism is something that affects all people of color, every day, every aspect of their lives, their finances and their health.

There is no "outside" to this view of an omnipresent structural racism. It functions as a theology, as others have noted.

People aren't racial minorities if they are in their native land...

People of color should not be apologetic for their harsh words and treatment of whites. Do mothers treat the serial killers who murder their sons with respect and "open-mindedness". Being open minded, that's a privilege of whites.

White people aren't built for tough times. It's not in their DNA! They can't handle not having shit. Remember when Bush was leaving office during the great recession in 2008. Every week on the news you'd hear of white men coming home and shooting there families dead and killing themselves because they lost their jobs or because the house went into foreclosure and because the family business wasn't doing well.

Once again, whites are not built for hard times. They can't take it. They don't know what to do with themselves without $$.

Agree R98.

Whites lack melanin, a compound which is found to actually create the dark colored solar system which surrounds us. If whites lack this vital compound which has created life, what does that say about blacks in comparison to whites? Who is the superior race? I've been considering this ever since it was brought up at my Black Excellencey group.

Am I wrong about white people and drugs? Aren't we in the middle of an opioid crisis? I'm confused.

I don't support racial supremacy in any form by the way. I'm just making an argument. Because the rhetoric was a lot different when the drug crisis was affecting the black community. Why aren't more white people being sent to prison for drug addiction?

R102 your so very right. But now it's suddenly a crisis since it effects whitey.

[quote] White people aren't built for tough times. It's not in their DNA! They can't handle not having shit. Remember when Bush was leaving office during the great recession in 2008. Every week on the news you'd hear of white men coming home and shooting there families dead and killing themselves because they lost their jobs or because the house went into foreclosure and because the family business wasn't doing well. Once again, whites are not built for hard times. They can't take it. They don't know what to do with themselves without $$.

This woman is brilliant. Call white's racist and say if they try to defend themselves then they are "fragile" There is no winning.

r106 meet r56.

For R90 and R93, who apparently slept through history class:

the United States was populated initially by white European immigrants who were usually fleeing dire poverty (and war) back home with no possibility of bettering their situations in their native land. They crowded into filthy slums in New York, worked in mines, factories, or on the railroads in conditions that are unimaginable today. They went west to stake their claim on a patch of dirt and attempt to make a living from it, risking starvation, Indians attacks, crop failure and extreme weather, all for the chance to have something of their own, because there was no possibility of that in their native countries. None. Material comfort, education, social mobility, were nonexistent outside of a small segment of society. There is no way of knowing how many of them died trying. Many of their descendants lost what their ancestors fought so hard for in the Dust Bowl, and another generation lost their land in the decade-long drought of the 1950s, and had to start over again from scratch in the Northwest and California. There was no unemployment, no welfare, no food stamps.

The opioid crisis cited as an example of how white people supposedly can't cope is about 2 decades old (more recent than the crack epidemic) and affects a demographic that ironically didn't exist until well-intentioned anti-poverty efforts created the permanent welfare class.

[quote] [R80] needs to be read closely, however, because what he announces is a world-view. Racism is something that affects all people of color, every day, every aspect of their lives, their finances and their health. There is no "outside" to this view of an omnipresent structural racism. It functions as a theology, as others have noted.

African American women and their babies are dying at alarming rates. According to the most recent data, black mothers are three to four times more likely to die in childbirth than their white, non-Hispanic counterparts, while the death rate for infants born to black mothers is more than twice that of infants born to white, non-Hispanic infants.1

A growing body of research suggests that even when clinicians control for education, income, and health, black women and their infants are dying at significantly higher rates than other groups of U.S mothers and babies. And while race is a consistent factor threaded throughout the data, the driver of these disparities is racism.

Racism, an evergreen toxin in American society, has long served as the primary ingredient of racial inequality. This year marks the 50th anniversary of the Kerner Commission, a bipartisan group created by former President Lyndon B. Johnson to investigate the country’s seemingly endless civil unrest. The commission’s final report identified “white racism” as the main source of unrest in communities across the country.2 The commission stated, in no uncertain terms, that “our nation is moving toward two societies, one black, one white—separate and unequal . . .

I got my data from Pew. I'm not talking about ancient history. I'm talking about modern America. Middle class white Americans have tasted poverty for the first time and it scares them.

"White people are fragile and frail and cannot cope when confronted with hardship" LMFAO!!! Sure Janiqua!

Poverty has never been an issue selective to one race. There may have been periods in American history where certain factors made a specific race disproportionately poorer, but anyone can fall victim to poverty. This is why I hate the term "white privilege" as someone who is white and has grown up in the working poor.

r21 sums it up perfectly.

r17 is full of shit.

Don't bother telling us what race you are -- nobody's going to take your word on an anonymous forum. You sound like just another knuckle-dragging, white, entitled racist like the cretins @ r7 and r13, whose hysterical reactions could only come from avowed racists.

Tell us, "Flies With Honey," how, EXACTLY, would you address the problem without addressing the problem?

When I was younger I lived in a neighborhood that had a large black population. I would never, ever EVER live in a neighborhood like that again even if I was given a house for free, with all utilities and taxes included. And that's all I am going to say.

[quote]for every black person who is poor and is for example, unjustly incarcerated, there is a white man in the same position.

The FUCK there is, r18! Who does he think he's fooling?

Yes, Black neighborhoods are so horrible that large groups of white people have decided to move into them. Gentrification is another good example of racism. Your neighborhood becomes more valuable simply because 1 white person moves in and your home losses value simply because a black person lived in it.

White = Emotional Strength

It's not the neighborhoods, it's the old houses. Every instance of gentrification I can think of, the so-called traditionally black (or Hispanic) neighborhood was a white neighborhood a few generations ago, so technically those city hipsters are reclaiming the neighborhoods their grandparents deserted for the burbs after WW2. The CD in Seattle, Echo Park in LA, East Austin, same.

[quote]Once again, whites are not built for hard times.

This is the most hilarious, stupidest thing ever said.

Gee those Europeans with their hash winters created magnificent cities, societies and invention.

Now tell us about the great literature, architecture, medical advances, exploration , science, technology, engineering, etc of Sub Saharan Africa.

So what r120 you didn’t help create them.

Yes, r121 PONED r120. Take that, r120!

See, many white Americans are uneducated and know nothing about the wealthy empires of West Africa. West Africans accomplished plenty.

Poverty in the US is a relative term. Poor people in the US live pretty well compared to a lot of other countries.

R123, And South Africa has Sun City.

R123 LOL. Nice try.

White is alright.

R125 And let's not forget Wakanda.

The trouble that I have is reparations. I was not around when slavery existed. My relatives were peasants in Ireland when blacks were being shipped to the US and mistreated. So why should I have to pay for what I did not have a part in?

White people are intrinsically sociopathic apart from being fragile. Funny since those things seem incompatible.

[quote]White people are intrinsically sociopathic

Then why do you want to be around them so badly?

[quote]White people are intrinsically sociopathic

Fortunately they don't give a shit about you. That should make you happy.

Blacks are happy to live in filth and poverty. Look at any country in Africa for proof of that.

Absolutely no desire or motivation, let alone the brainpower, to improve their circumstances in life.

Much easier to just blame someone else, like whitey, and demand free handouts.

The United States didn't kill Jews in the Holocaust but US government still awarded Holocaust survivors 12 million dollars in 2015. Victims of Jim Crow and state sponsored violence are still alive and they received nothing. No one seemed to complain about the misuse of their tax dollars when given to Jews.

White men squealing and whining like piglets. They assume that everyone else should defer to them, that the world was created primarily for them, and that the rest of us may take the crumbs from the table when we are given permission, but only after we beg and lick their boots.

European countries are still pulling massive amounts of money out of Africa. Some African nations are in massive debt because they are still paying for their freedom from colonization and imperialism. There are reasons white people are blamed.

Sooooo many obvious trolls here.

You girls are too exgaerrated, too out there in your attempts to imitate the black extremists. Subtly always dears.

[quote]Some African nations are in massive debt because they are still paying for their freedom from colonization and imperialism.

The African nations are in massive debt because they are run by black people with IQs of 65.

Using “you’re racist” as an argument is actually an ad hominem fallacy—you’re commenting on someone’s character instead of the issues themselves. That’s why white people won’t engage this nonsense anymore.

R136 Exactly! European countries are taking all of Africa’s resources!

White people are LEADING the nonsense. Who are social justice warriors usually? White women.

R139: If someone is being racist, then their character IS the issue. If the racist shoe fits, wear it. That this has to be explained to an ostensible adult is disturbing...

I'm a person of color, a black-hispanic male, who is a paying member and I seldom post. I think the reason is because I'm not white. My viewpoint is always different to that of the whites on here. This thread makes me sad to be honest and I'm reconsidering my subscription to this place.

So much for you white people to learn WTF.

Someone else said it - your place is not to argue but to learn from what poc say.

Please stay and tell us your viewpoint R143

I agree with 143. The commentary sort of proves the book’s point.

I've only read the OP post of what that "Sociologist" wrote.

All that guy did is demonstrate that it's people like him who are making it impossible for any honest talk on racism.

White people complain about being called racist but seem to be ignorant of all the racist laws and systems they still benefit from. It's like white people and poc study different history books. For instance, white people literally track the percentage of Native American blood in Native Americans, if it falls under a certain percentage they lose claim to their land. Native Americans can't even marry interracially without fear of losing their ancestral land to white people.

[quote]Someone else said it - your place is not to argue but to learn from what poc say.

How did black people feel when they were told "their place"? It's phrases like that that point out who the racist is.

[quote]White people are intrinsically sociopathic

lol white people look like saints next to Arabs.

I’m white and black people I don’t know scare the shit out of me. I’ve seen so many act violently that I can’t help how I feel. I have been mugged twice, both by blacks, so I’m sure that (and watching the news as a kid) plays a role. Homeless white people usually give me the same feeling. Honestly, I can see why cops are more aggressive with blacks- it’s self preservation.

The black people I work with and are friends with are great and I love hanging out with them. As a group, they terrify me though.

R139, that’s exactly what a racist would say.

Arabs are white.

Jews are not.

“Ghetto” is a wop racial slur designed to justify letting minority neighborhoods fall into disrepair.

Jews only claim to not be white when they want to leech onto and/or hide behind organizations and laws that protect people of color. It's cowardly and disrespectful to those people of color who are truly oppressed.

Sorry Jews, nobody is buying it. Your'e white.

Fake news!

Arabs are caucasian, but not white.

Essence of enlightenment

Whites are the leeches, not Jews. Jews are the ones being leeched off by whites.

Jews are not white. Imposing white racial identity onto Ashkenazi Jews is a form of racism. You Cracker parasites call us white so you can falsely claim our achievements as yours. This is why we hate you and why all the other races hate you, too. Stop co-opting Jewish racial identity and stop projecting your inferiority onto nonwhites.

R154, get lynched. I mean it. You Cracker trash deserve everything bad you did to anyone of color.

Show me a white Jew and I’ll show you an albino.

White men have been raping black and Jewish women for centuries. It’s time to return the favor.

Nazism was the last straw. The entire white race will be on the hook for that forever.

[quote]White men have been raping black and Jewish women for centuries. It’s time to return the favor.

Jewish women, unless black, are white. Next.

No they are not you fucking Cracker. Jews are people of color. Stop projecting your toxic whiteness onto us you ofay vermin.

Jewish, Asian, Latina, and Black women are ten thousand times more intelligent than airheaded honky bitches.

Jews are the least homophobic Abrahamic religion by a wide margin.

Can any asshole call himself a "sociologist" nowadays? Does the title have any meaning anymore?

How did this turn into an anti-semitic thread?

Can the Jews please make up their minds R158? I thought they were the oppressed victims of world-wide hatred as is usually claimed here on DL? Now they're beacons of perfection that whites strive to be and leech off of? LOL you are seriously deluded.

And speaking of parasites, I'm looking at you Israel!

Jews are behind the transanity.

How about stop changing the goal posts as to what is racism. For instance, we were taught that acting colorblind and not seeing race was how not to be racist, now that is considered racist.

R170, Yes, and if you ask them what the rules are, they shout back in your face, "It's not my job to educate you!"

The inmates are running the asylum.

The SJW goal of refusing to recognize white allies and work to create a worthy way forward, and continuously smear them with the likes of the very worst is not helping anyone.

It's odious and obnoxious. On top of that it doesn't help anyone.

R171 I actually had one of these "diversity instructors" say "It's not my job to educate you!" to me. I wanted to just get through the class so I didn't argue, but I wanted to say, "Actually, that is the definition of your job."

We'll see him on All in With Chris Hayes next week!

All these threads about racial issues recently. You'd think the Russians (and their American Republican collaborators) were trying to stir up racial strife again, much like they did in 2016. Be aware of nefarious characters trying to divide us on the basis of race and other factors, DLoungers.

R175 Racial issues have been talked about among Americans for decades. Now with the internet, voices are amplified. Get over it. We're in a new era. If you're so squeamish about it, don't visit discussion forums.

Oh great, Matt Anscher found this thread...

Oh no...the Matt Anscher accuser found this thread....

R178, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that R163 is Anscher.

IMO, white people are just fed up with it all.

R180

Fed up of what? Black folk see killed on THE DAILY because of systemic racism. Tell me how whites are working to stop that? Because if they were, then maye whites would have a reason to be TIRED.

LOL. Also, POC of Datalounge, let's starting referring to caucasions simply as "whites", it's dehumanizing and whites do it all the time when referring to black people.

[quote]Tell me how whites are working to stop that?

Seriously, with a current US population percentage of 72 percent (and higher percentages historically), you don't think whites have been involved with stopping racism? If whites were the monolithic racist enemy of your dreams, it'd be 100 percent oppression 100 percent of the time. And you dream of "dehumanizing" others - based on skin color, no less. You're a sad traitor to the ideals of good people who want a more fair and just world.

I'd say enjoy your hate, but you won't because it's just going to eat you up inside and that's no fun for anyone.

Try and be a better person. It's a choice, not a skin color.

R177/R179 is who this sociologist is talking about.

Calling us whites is somehow bad? I have been referring to us as whites my entire life.

Fell free to do so.

I have to admit, sometimes I'm embarrassed to be white when I see other white people's actions and comments.

No person of color told white people to adopt a colorblind racial policy. Colorblindness is a strange concept that evolved from white people thinking they understand what minorities want. There is no way a person of color would ask society to ignore the culture and history associated with their ethnicity. You can embrace diversity and not be racist.

Sane people want their people and culture left in peace. Only borderlines and bipolars need others to validate them so much.

R169 is an antisemite. Christians and Muslims are pushing tr*nscult propaganda along with all the pedo shit they and they alone normalized.

[quote]R169 is an antisemite. Christians and Muslims are pushing tr*nscult propaganda along with all the pedo shit they and they alone normalized.

The moment the oppressor classes started trying to str8splain, whitesplain, and goysplain their way out of their collective culpability for racism, sexism, antisemitism, homophobia, ableism, and lookism.

Wops and camel jockeys hate gays but love trannies.

R189 was actually intended for R167.

For most white people what separates racists from non racists is the n-word. If you say it, you're racist. If you don't say it you're not. And that's it for them. They don't see leaving the city for a lily-white suburb "for the schools" as racist. They don't see complaining about affirmative action admissions to colleges while staying silent on the wide range of legacy and special admissions for white students as racist. They don't see judging all black women by that one black welfare mother with multiple kids by multiple men as racist. I guess, I'm just shocked at how tone deaf white people can be about race.

[quote]They don't see leaving the city for a lily-white suburb "for the schools" as racist.

Their kids will not get a stellar education nor get into a good college. They'll also be harrassed endlessly by the other kids. No thanks. Call it whatever you want, but whites refuse to go along with the utter uncivilized bullshit that are majority black schools.

[quote]Their kids will not get a stellar education nor get into a good college

I disagee r193. You may have a point about living standard and environment, but if a student achieves academic success it really shouldn't be a problem. Maybe it's different in the U.S. (I'm in Canada) but I doubt it. What does location have to do with the school's you're accepted into?

Oh boy R194, you need to take a tour of US inner city schools for one week. Then get back to us.

R150: And here is where the rubber hits the road. Do you recognize that that is wrong? And do you fight internally to not feel that way? I have problems with black women based on my work experiences, I know it's wrong and I try to fight that prejudice, but it's there. If you make no effort to fight your prejudices, then you are a racist.

r194 bless your Canadian heart. Location and demographics make ALL the difference in the US.

I don't have time to pull up the exact stats, but if Massachusetts were a country, its public schools would rank among the top 4 or 5 countries in the world.

Conversely, if Mississippi were a country, it would rank somewhere in the bottom third, surrounded by developing nations.

It makes a BIG difference.

Yes I understand some areas are known for having schools with violent student populous', low marks, etc, but r193 was basically talking about white kids attending inner city schools and not being able to get into good schools for that reason.

I guess my question is, do post secondary schools in the U.S. choose students based on whether the which they attend are deemed good or not? If so, that sucks.

[quote]No person of color told white people to adopt a colorblind racial policy. Colorblindness is a strange concept that evolved from white people thinking they understand what minorities want. There is no way a person of color would ask society to ignore the culture and history associated with their ethnicity. You can embrace diversity and not be racist.

I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. --Dr. King.

While many people still argue over his meaning, this is basically where the idea of color blindness comes from. The idea of color blindness isn't about so much ignoring race, as it is about treating each person as an individual, which is a great equalizer. Basically it is treating black people, the same as we evolved to treat white immigrant groups such as, Italians, Jews, Irish, etc... who were treated as different or other, because of their history and culture, but then society evolved to treat them as individuals regardless of culture or history. The only way we will ever have full equality is to view all people as equal individuals.

But, so many today do not seem to want equality. The same way that integration used to be the goal, yet today we activists calling for various minority groups to be allowed to self segregate into specific residence halls, safe spaces, etc... Instead of focusing on our differences, we as a society need to focus on what we have in common, not what separates us.

Race is a social construct, that needs to be torn down not reinforced.

In my case I've confronted racism. I'm Italian-American - the love of my life is a black man. In fact we're staying with another friend of mine she's a black woman. Why?

Because I know that law enforcement is biased, that the majority of drug users are white people, that basically everything we've been told is wrong. And I have but one criteria in life - if you want to associate with me you have to not be an asshole. It's really simple.

R201 "the majority of drugs users are white people"

Really doubt that anyone's even quantified those statistics, but even if it were the case it's a moot point. Anyone can be a drug dealer.

"Black folk see killed on THE DAILY because of systemic racism."

The majority of black murders in America are performed by other black people. You are killing each other.

The "systemic" factor is that you live in a fatherless culture. The murder/death rates plummet when black people are raised in a home with both their mother and father. It also gives them a higher standard of living. And makes them less likely to get involved in criminal behavior. (Same thing apply to whites too.)

Why don't you go after black "celebrities" who promote pimp/ho/drug/thug culture. Tell young black men to pull up their pants, and young black girls to stop twerking and pumping out babies out of wedlock. It's easier to blame whitey for everything. But a lot of black culture is fucked up. Stop glorifying thug culture. Take responsibility when you procreate. And stupid welfare moms should not allow thug boyfriends around their children. It leads to high rates off molestation, and it fucks kids up.

"Tell"

R203 why don't you take responsibility to tell the white community to stop smoking meth, molesting our own kids, and get off welfare? Tell them to cover their tits and quit tattooing themselves out of job opportunities. Oh, wait... you're not responsible for the white community? What's that you say? All other whites in this country aren't waiting for the word from you in what to do in their lives?!

Imagine that! Well do carry on telling the black guy how he needs to tell all the blacks in the country how they should live, because no doubt he wields such power. I'm sure they are all waiting to hear from him on the edge of their seats.

I agree with you R203 but whites are equally to blame for this situation. It's whites, largely white Jews, who control the narrative by means of having most of the influence when it comes to the music, film, and entertainment industry in general. It's largely THEM who push this thug culture, several black entertainers have complained about this over the years but the minute they do that, their careers are over. Even Tupac started to become very vocal about this shortly before he was murdered.

The black community has largely been brainwashed over the years and used politically by wolves in sheeps clothing who use them to further their own agenda. There are a A LOT of people, including many blacks, who get very rich manipulating the black community to continue embracing thug/welfare culture (dependence on the state). Whenever someone points this out, especially if they're black, they are relentlessly attacked, ridiculed, and silenced.

And 204 is correct as well, but 204 also doesn't recognize that it's much easier for a white person to "shed that skin" of white trash/ghetto culture than it is for a black person. And oddly, when a white trash person pulls themselves up and out of that they are praised by their own, but it doesn't seem to be the same for blacks, it's like they are persecuted by their own if they pull themselves out of the ghetto. So it's a complicated situation all around.

Well I've always said that white people got the black people they wanted. Remember black wall street? Redlining? Throwing away job applications with names that look African-American?

Whites wanted blacks on the bottom with no hope and that's exactly what we got. And all that it entails. Don't complain about it now with buyer's remorse.

[quote] No person of color told white people to adopt a colorblind racial policy.

I agree with r200 that this is completely ignorant and ahistorical bullshit. The mainstream civil rights rhetoric of the 60s and early 70s was almost entirely about working towards color blindness.

I wouldn't go that far R206. Maybe in the first part of the 20th century yes, but we have come a long ways since then. Blacks have a lot more control and a lot more opportunities now.

[quote]Blacks have a lot more control.

Displaying your racism full centre while trying to talk about black people's advancements? Lol.

What R209? What is racist about what I said? I was saying that as a positive thing!

?????

R210

Your use of the term "blacks" to describe black people is dehumanizing..

White people are called "whites" by everybody and we don't give a shit.

Well I apologize then, what term should I use then? I was told African American is no longer acceptable as it is exclusive. So what is the acceptable term(s)?

I know of not one white person that has a problem with being called white or whites, that's what we are! I feel like people purposely look for things to be offended about :(.

R208 you missed the point completely. You haven't a clue. If the gist of that comment flew above your head, and it did, the subject at hand really is out of your depth.

I absolutely got the point R214. I as much as agreed and expanded on it in the next post.

I mean post R205

The OP is just trying to stir up shit.

I blocked him and DOZENS of posts disappeared.

R204 Here is the fallacy in your words: Yes, there are white meth heads. Yes, there are white cousin fuckers. Yes there are white fucked up young men who want to shoot people or blow things up.

BUT WHITE CULTURE DOES NOT GLORIFY THAT BEHAVIOR. Because we understand that it is aberrant and detrimental to society as a whole.

Black culture celebrates pimps, thugs, prostitutes, gangs, murderers(hell, hip hop has 50+ artists with some form of murder/killer in their self chosen appellation.

Until black people realize that they are driving the bus which is destroying their people there is not a damn thing whites could do, even if they wanted to, to "save" them from the path they have been on since Jim Crow ended.

And quite frankly, I and many former civil rights activists from the seventies have pretty much given up. I still hope for the best---but I now expect the worst--and I am seldom wrong in that.

It is true. Figures like Cardi B and Nicki Minaj, two of the only mainstream black women in music both only perpetuate black stereotypes with their purposeful illiteracy and vulgarity and crudeness; singing about sucking dicks like they're candy, literally. This is in contrast to the violent and mysogynistic rap of black men.

Now this would be all fine and dandy if blacks cultivated the jazz, blues and funk scenes which they once did. These genres proved their ability to compose beautiful, melodious and poetic works. This is all more or less gone now.

Shape up blacks.

If you want to see the kind of bitterness being paraodied in this thread, go look at black SJW twitter. It's unfathomable how stupid and trivial their rhetoric gets.

"BUT WHITE CULTURE DOES NOT GLORIFY THAT BEHAVIOR."

Really? Have you heard country music? Seen the Trailer park boys and other shows like it? Watches mafia movies and tv shows? You're hilarious.

"singing about sucking dicks like they're candy, literally. "

But when Arianna sings about walking side to side because her pussy hurts from too much dick, that's not white culture? Stfu.

R220 but do those examples represent white culture on the whole, or are they niche subsects of white culture. I mean, some blacks argue that country is black in origin, like they believe all musical genres are.

Rap is black culture. Go look at "black twitter" or the rap charts. Or tell a black person rap isn't "theirs".

R220 Have you ever heard country music? It does not glorify drug use, it doesn't glorify murder, it doesn't glorify promiscuity. When it does glorify drinking, it is usually in the context of celebrating after a week of hard work. And when it discusses murder or promiscuity it tends to focus on the downsides to the behavior not to glorify it. At its heart country music is about hard work, family, patriotism, and spirituality, really the opposite of rap.

Also judging by the way r220 (whom I assume is also r221) types, it is very obvious they are of high school age.

Get out of here, Denise whose pronouns are they/she.

And now we're back in the 1990s blaming music genres for societal problems (and laughably claiming country music has superior "values"). Never change racial conservatives, never change.

The stances taken on this thread on both sides seem to promote "separate but equal" which almost seems inevitable. There will be no consensus building in the years ahead.

R222 read what you wrote again and ask yourself if rap culture represents all black people in the world, or even in America. Think hard about that one. I won't even dignify r224 with a response. Here is a tip for you r222, blacks aren't a monolith. Just like we aren't.

R225 I'm not blaming musical genres for anything, but I will support country music as having much superior values as a genre to rap. In fact most genres have superior values to rap.

R226: Keep making shit up there babe. Maybe the other trolls will believe you. No thinking person who's actually read the thread will.

R227: Not content to be racist, R224 has to be misogynist and anti-trans too. TRIFECTA!

I have been, quite frankly, astounded of the staying power of rap. I thought it was a flash in the pan style that would quickly fade. It's expansion into mainstream is even more amazing. Not a fan , though.

"Have you ever heard country music? It does not glorify drug use, it doesn't glorify murder, it doesn't glorify promiscuity. When it does glorify drinking, it is usually in the context of celebrating after a week of hard work. And when it discusses murder or promiscuity it tends to focus on the downsides to the behavior not to glorify it. At its heart country music is about hard work, family, patriotism, and spirituality, really the opposite of rap."

Translation: When whites aren't exemplary, that's that individual, not all whites. When blacks aren't exemplary, that's all blacks. That's their culture.

R225 Denise whose pronouns are they and she, how am I blaming musical genres for societal problems? I am not saying that blacks kill because of the violence within their music. I am saying that white peoples' intrinsic feelings about black people are what you deem racist because of the way blacks portray themselves.

People here are comparing decades' worth of music to Ariana Grande and The Trailer Park Boys.. Lol

R232 white feelings about blacks has been the same for centuries, long before rap was ever a thing. You really have no ability to think logically.

R233, Denise, you can do better than this!

Conquest and conquer was the way society worked throughout history. Whites were not exclusive to this.

[quote] Translation: When whites aren't exemplary, that's that individual, not all whites. When blacks aren't exemplary, that's all blacks. That's their culture.

R231 I said no such thing, I was simply defending a genre of music that you defamed without knowing what you were talking about. I do not judge people by the music that they listen to.

And, for your information, I was raised with the belief, and continue to hold to the belief that every person, regardless of race, should be judged individually not by their race or culture. There are good white people and bad white people. There are good black people and bad black people. For that matter, there are good gay people and bad gay people. But, with the understanding that in truth most people are neither good nor bad but a mixture. And, no person's actions should reflect on their race, family, or culture, but on their self.

R232 do you really think that there haven't been white women singing whorish lyrics since way before Ariana? I could go back decades before rap and niki minaj existed with examples, but that's not white culture, that's just individual examples in your mind.

I agree. Separate but equal is what everyone truly wants. I am sick of the obfuscations and justifications for really awful behavior.

It gets worse every year, and I say that as someone who unfortunately remembers "colored bathrooms." Black people had such strength nd dignity in the sixties and seventies when thy were finally given all the rights and privileges which had been denied them since they first arrived on these shores. Dr. King KNEW that each had a personal responsibility for all. He did not minimize bad behavior by one or two of the whole.

Fatherless homes as well as the normalization of multiple pregnancies from non-relationships was the death knell for the upward trajectory of blacks as a whole. White people made that happen, and black people took the bait. Sickening.

R234 Mary, we're not discussing conquest and conquer right now, do try to keep up. I know with your double digit IQ it's a struggle.

No one genre has perpetuated ideas of violence, drug abuse and excess as much as rap has. This is basically fact.

No other genre is more predominantly black than rap.

Do the math.

R238 we also weren't talking history either yet you brought it up, as all extremists with little comprehension of the sheer magnitude of violence which was common place then. You clearly miss the point.

You people act like things are BAD now.

This is the most diplomatic and safe world we have ever seen as human beings, count your blessing you weren't born during feudal times, or a Jew in Egypt at the time of the pyramids.

The stupidity in this thread is astounding. Violence, single moms, drug use and selling, it's all up across the board with all races. If it's up more among blacks, I've got news for you, whites are doing bad enough in these regards that we have no room to point fingers.

R241 I don't disagree that these are raceless issues, but if we want to discuss white prejudice maybe we should also consider what black media and entertainment are doing to help destigmatize blacks ...squat.

The point is, R241, that whites removing themselves from that type of harmful lifestyle is much more likely because in white culture that kind of lifestyle is the exception, not the norm, while that lifestyle is largely what is considered not only the norm in black culture, you are also ridiculed by the black community for WANTING OUT of that lifestyle (wanting to be "more white")

You just can't find a broad enough or skewed enough brush to paint with.

Racists always lie and defend themselves and claim they aren't racist. If a white person denies that they're racist, it proves that they're racist.

R243 that lifestyle is the norm for whites, this isn't 1957.

R242, this is where whites also hold a lot of the responsibility, they are the ones that control the industry and decide what music, image, lifestyle of black Americans is promoted. I mentioned this in R205. Black people are encouraged if not forced to make that music and promote that lifestyle if they want to make any kind of living.

I agree that it would be great if jazz, soul, etc were more mainstream, even R&B which rarely gets as much attention and promotion as rap.

So it hasn't been cleared up yet, we're not allowed to say bl*cks, African American is too exclusionary for some AA's, what is the current acceptable term? I like Black Americans myself.

Listen to the lyrics and the ugliness of the music. Can you imagine children growing up listening to this in an already unstable household?

Just ban the racist, transphobic trolls. They're not here to engage this important discussion, they're here to black bash and trans bait. It's obvious a woman named Denise spanked the one troll when he was in 1st grade and he can't accept the fact that it turned him on and he'll NEVER be able to recreate that scene ever again.

Whites use and sell drugs as much as blacks do, yet blacks are incarcerated more and longer for it. It's this way with everything.

That's weak R251.

Not as weak as offering no opposing facts like you r252.

Not as weak as offering no opposing facts like you r252.

I hate white people so much OMG

I'm fairly certain that works both ways.

I found this discussion fascinating and quite relevant after the events of the past week. I am probably one of those fragile white people the author wrote about. Two years ago, my college brought in a consulting group to offer a workshop on undoing racism. Three-quarters of it was a historical overview. The penultimate session was an assault in which the white people present were told that they had to complete the sentence "I like having white skin because." The people of color were asked instead to share something they loved about their culture, and the moderator noted that the white people present had no culture because their grandparents had given it up to be white. We were also told that everything we as white people had achieved was a function of our white skin. After that, there was a final session of reconciliation in which we were supposed to contemplate group action to eliminate racism. My ears were still ringing with my Black co-workers' complaints about micro-aggressions, which struck me as trivial and childish. It was almost amusing to hear a former boss complain about micro-aggressions when he had been condescending, insulting and inconsiderate as a supervisor. Six months later, there was a follow-up session, consisting of senior managers who lived in the suburbs describing the seminar as a life-changing experience that had dropped the scales from their eyes. I assumed they were sucking up to the college's president, who saw the seminar as the second coming. I thought the people offering it were hucksters who made a living off liberal guilt. At no time was there any discussion of the poors outside the door in one of the most segregated cities in t-he country.

I think there are functional ways to get white people to contemplate their privilege but this wasn't it. The process is inevitably painful but if it's too painful, people shut down. I also reject the proposition that I have all this work to do, but my former supervisor has no obligation to explore what a jerk he is because a history of discrimination absolves him. I grant you that I had two afternoons of discomfort, which is nothing compared to what people of color experience over a lifetime. My feeling was that I was a convenient target for a lifetime's worth of anger, when I am a wholly inconsequential cog in a wheel. I think that Black anger is the flip side of White fragility and there needs to be some way to express and reckon with it that doesn't involve using bystanders as punching bags.

These thoughts surfaced this week as I was told that if I was really serious about being an ally, I should travel to the worst neighborhoods in the city and sweep the broken glass from trashed storefront windows off the sidewalks. I wrote a check instead to provide families with food. I will be happy to contemplate the true meaning of being an ally when the people who looted those stores contemplate why theft is not a victimless crime.

You know what's really behind white "fragility" and their failures to get deep and personal in discussions about race?

"I got problems of my own", that's what.

Anyone would think tribalism is unique to the pale-skinned of the planet and that people in the Far East and Middle East and Africa are somehow immune to the instinct to divide the world into "Self and Other".

It's as old as homo sapiens itself. This We're All Brothers and Sisters bit is a novelty of the 20th century in the First World. No one in China or Japan subscribes to it, and the 160 million people in Nigeria, which is 95% black, doesn't subscribe to it.

They can screech all they like: most of humanity when called names and upon hearing demands like this psychologically digs its heels in and doubles down. The demand encourages resistance.

For the hunter-gatherers, tribalism was a tool for survival. Now, in the modern post-industrial era, cooperation amongst groups is core to survival. But it's up against the old DNA screaming Us First!

In my old age, I'm moving away from Freud and toward Adler: it's the Power Principle that motivates, because it also plays into the distribution of resources. No one believes there are enough resources for everyone.

I lived through the 1960s and 1990s. I saw riots and demonstrations like these. Nothing much changed.

As Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

And that includes people who are other colours besides white.

bump

Fallon