TMZ: LGBTQ group drops Martina Navratilova over transphobic comments

Love her!

Let me guess....the board is dominated by trans.

[quote]"Martina Navratilova’s recent comments on trans athletes are transphobic, based on a false understanding of science and data, and perpetuate dangerous myths that lead to the ongoing targeting of trans people through discriminatory laws, hateful stereotypes and disproportionate violence."

The science is clear. Men have numerous physical advantages over women even with their testosterone lowered. Those fast twitch muscle fibers don't just disappear. The people that have declared so called "trans women" are equally matched against genuine females are all men themselves.

Martina is an icon. Hopefully this wakes people up to how absurd this whole thing has become.

Good for her.

That's too sad. Of course Martina is correct.

It is cheating because mtf compete as women and use their biological advantage by presenting their psychological identity.

I doubt we'll see much of ftm competing as men for the obverse reason. Oh maybe gymnastics floor exercises or any sport set to music and requiring puffy shirts...

Mark me down as a gay man who loves her ability to proclaim fearlessly that the emperor has no clothes.

[quote]Athlete Ally

Time for this BS organization to fold. I have long believed that this organization was akin to Sean Cody porn. It’s run by that homophobic “gay for pay” porn-like “straight” white males (or was—founded by at least) who gay men would drop to their knees for at the drop of a hat. Like that Ben Cohen person. Gay men throwing money at the men because they’re hot—or what they jerk off to regularly with their porn addiction.

Based on a false understanding of science and data?????

Uh, no. I think Martina understands science and data just fine.

[quote]Time for this BS organization to fold.

Hit their sponsor list.

She is absolutely correct. Bravo for her speaking out. For a human being that feels the need to change, or more accurately, become the gender they feel they already are inside, I commend you/them. But shit on a shingle, there are unfair advantages that being born a genetic male give you, that no amount of training or hard work, can ever be attained by a woman athlete who was born a woman. Just cannot see how anyone can argue this.

It IS unfortunate for the Trans who loves sport and is good at it, but it is MORE unfortunate for ALL the competitors, who now have slim to NO chance to ever win in their field of endeavour.

Full time cross dressing men with psychological issues can please stop using gay men and lesbians as shields to push their agenda. We want no part in it.

R10 What does it "feel like inside" to be a man or a woman when you demonstrably are not? You've fallen for the propaganda yourself here.

Can I "feel" like a cat inside? The queen of England? There are no limits with queer theory. The idea is that there is no objective reality.

Athlete Alley's twitter page is lit!

Fuck this dude.

R14 Well no, Cyd, they haven't, you're right. Because all this trans shit is about 4 days old. But you can't tell me Caster Semenya isn't on his way to doing just that in the 800m.

That Cyd Ziegler was also emphatic that Aaron Hernandez was not gay—to a homophobic level. He should also go too.

R15 I'm fairly certain Castor is 100% female but with a naturally occurring higher testosterone level. Billie Jean King has said as much. Be careful with that.

Peak trans! It’s all downhill from here. The only question: how steep will the hill be? I’m sure nasty activists will ensure it’s a cliff. I feel bad for the legit ones.

R15 Actually they have at the lower levels. Girls have been losing out on a lot of sports scholarships for quite some time and have been quietly pushed out the way at an amateur level. We are just starting to see it hit major competitive sport in the last year or so.

The young girls at the lower levels matter just as much because they are being cut out of sport as they are barely getting started. If this continues unabated sport will be destroyed for future generations of females.

On a related note Trump Jr via Twitter has picked up on every one of these trans stories in the last few weeks. The left really needs to consolidate a sensible party position on these issues because it's guaranteed the GOP will run with it in 2020.

I'm sure she couldn't possibly care less.

R13, the replies are so heartening!

Cut off funding for any pro-trans organization. Who’s pulling the purse strings of this glorified hate group? Boycott them until they cry Uncle.

R22 That's every gay rights organization. The money spent on individual trans causes exceeds the amount spent on every other letter in the acronym combined by twofold. You'd be hurting us.

They also get substantial funding from individual benefactors like Republican ex-military goon and billionaire heir to the Hyatt fortune James "Jennifer" Pritzker.

It's a damn shame that someone who tells the truth gets the boot.

"Jennifer" is a STRAIGHT MAN married to a woman playing dress up and pumping millions into pediatric gender clinics solely for the purpose of turning (studies show mostly gay) children into medical experiments. So unbelievably fucked up.

[quote]I'm fairly certain Castor is 100% female but with a naturally occurring higher testosterone level. Billie Jean King has said as much. Be careful with that.

No. It’s long been rumored that Caster lacks any female reporoductive organs save a vaginal canal (so no cervix, ovaries, etc) and has testes instead of ovaries. If so, Castor is within the male range when it comes to disorders of sexual development, not the female range.

#itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish #itsafetish

If you don’t like the truth just identify it as a lie, I guess? Because it’s a fetish.

R26 Malicious and unfounded rumors are no reason to call a butch lesbian woman a man you fucking homophobic shitstain. Castor is clearly female.

R28 Castor has testes

Lol ok r26. I can see you’re a troll. Bye!

IIRC, it's not possible for someone biologically female to produce testosterone levels as high as Semenya's, suggesting that she has undescended testes. I feel sorry for her, but from what I've read she is intersex rather than female.

Intersex conditions are complex but it's my basic understanding that they almost always can be categorised as male or female following correct DNA /medical testing. The true hermaphrodite trope is pretty much just a trope. I also think Caster is probably genetically male however her upbringing and prior unawareness of this is not her fault. It's something that needs careful and thoughtful consideration by the IOC because there are countries that will seek out people like Semenya to gain advantage and medals. Top level sport is a very cut throat business as it is.

None of that however has anything to do with men who have lady feelings in their heads.

FFS, not falling 100% in line with the current trans agenda does not make one "transphobic"

She's absolutely correct. And Martina has about zero fucks to give for bullshit, I am sure.

Martina should spearhead the formation of an LGB group or be partnered with by people who are already doing this. A group focusing solely on LGB people would get more legitimate mainstream support than groups that currently exist and have no gatekeeping, focus on everyone but us, and resort to threatening, silencing, shaming, and attacking people for wrong think or lack of blind support.

r13: The responses in that Twitter thread warm my heart and give me hope that society is hitting peak trans.

Martina deserves a damn Datalounge award for finally getting this conversation going.

Wow, fuck these fools.

I meant r28 is the troll, not r26!

DROP THE FUCKING T. NOW!!!!

They are fucking DESTROYING everything we have worked for. How DARE they drop a legend like Martina!

Where's myy fuckcking Ativann ...

R38 It's not trolling to point out that calling a lesbian a MAN is homophobic you fucking morons. There is NO PROOF Castor Semenya is biologically male. NONE.

This is why straight women don't belong on gay websites.

Agreed, R40!

[quote]Martina Navratilova’s recent comments on trans athletes are transphobic, based on a false understanding of science and data,

They are correct. THEY do have have a false understanding of science if they think a man with balls and a penis constitutes a female.

This bullshit organization that has like 32 people on their board? WTF do they do anyway?

This org looks like a circle jerk and a resume builder. That's all. Nothing to see here. Move along folks - this is a bs organization.

R35 - agree. It’s time to separate those who are attracted to the same sex from those with gender dysphoria. These distinctions need to be made clear. With the recent lunacy from the SJWs, gays and lesbians have a lot to lose otherwise.

If I was on the Board, I'd like to think I had the fortitude to resign in protest. Actually, I'm sure I would.

R19 This will be an effective rally because current trans politics isn’t live and let live, it requires active participation from others.

Conservatives in policy aren’t concerned with gays because they’re generally more libertarian leaning and it’s adults, etc. Religious conservatives still think it’s sinful and a sign of the end of days, etc. etc. but a good portion of them have accepted gay rights are here to stay and aren’t expending energy to fight. Where you will still see fight/pushback is when it “forces me to be involved.” Ie the cakes, the wedding venues, etc. That’s where they’ve drawn their line. (At least as far as mass public outrage)

Current trans requires everyone to be involved. To state pronouns, to go along, to push girls out of sports, to possibly influence a custody decision. It’s not just adults wishing to be non-conforming and go about their lives. It’s not someone living privately in a way you disagree but are really not effected by. That’s where it will bubble up and that’s where people will push back.

Drop everything other than L, G, and B

From every sector of society.

When they come for a pioneer like Martina, the end is near.

This makes me angry. I hope thus marks a change in public thinking towards these trans bigots.

good 4 her !!!!!! many agree ..

we love u martina, ur a legend and sexy bitchess!!!!

[quote]"Jennifer" is a STRAIGHT MAN married to a woman playing dress up and pumping millions into pediatric gender clinics solely for the purpose of turning (studies show mostly gay children into medical experiments. So unbelievably fucked up.

James now Jennifer Pfeizer is one of the huge Pfeizer big pharma family. I think he also identifies as lesbian. Sigh.

Go Martina!

We need to separate ourselves from the Trans asap. These people will bring us down. Gay groups need to dissasosiate with any trans members. It's harsh but the only way to salvage our identity.

I am dreading the 50th anniversary of Stonewall. You know there's going to be 20 think pieces about how it was really a trans movement.

R54. That bullshit needs to stop. There are lots of photos from that night and I don't see any trans in them. Liars.

This whole thing is strange. Post-gay marriage in America alone, has turned gay rights on its head. No other country or state that legalized gay marriage two decades ago experienced this. There was no trans movement to this degree, straight people weren’t referring to themselves as “queer”. I believe this is an attack on gay rights and the gay community because of this incessant homophobic and wrong belief that homosexuality weakens nations. I really believe there is some anti-gay agenda at play here among very powerful people in government, pharma and business.

[quote] who loves her ability to proclaim fearlessly that the empress has a dick and is, in reality, an emperor.

Fixed.

Agreed, r56. Also anti-woman.

Putin and the Evangelical right are behind this.

I wonder how long the "everyone state their pronouns" nonsense will continue -- along with including them in email signatures (big in my corner of academia).

So why aren't gay leaders and feminist leaders rallying supporters to loudly protest this?

They have no problem with putting down white men at every opportunity. But put a white man in a wig and a dress and he declares himself a woman and they are fucking shaking like scared rabbits.

It's truly one of the most insane exhibitions of cowardly acts committed by activists of civil rights I've ever seen in a fairly long life.

Have you see worse, R60?

They should just have the Trans Olympics. Like the special olympics and the Gay Games. Seriously, let trans women compete against other trans women.

r56, you are correct. With the progressive one step forward, there are two steps backwards.

When Obama was elected president, we felt great a step forward out of our US racist past but then the reaction to him came Trump and nationalism which wants to preserve the country with a white majority.

Marriage rights pass, and you think, hey the country is moving forward but the reaction to that is the extreme trans movement which by its own construct eliminates the validity of same sex attraction.

I do hope that both examples will settle and we can move passed it. I think both instances are a very loud small population of the country that is dominating and fucking shit up for everyone else.

As usual, lesbians stepping up while homosexual men still remain publicly hidden.

#TeamMartina

R61 I guess not.

I was going to say, R66...I was thinking maybe during the AIDS epidemic? Lol.

That is some bullshit. Then TMZ itself is BS.

Over the QT.

Truly spoken, R48. This is shameful.

So pointing out the truth is now deemed "phobic". I swear some factions of our people are their own worst enemies. The only phobics I see in this scenario are the leaders of this group who dropped Navratilova. They're "truthphobic".

They're certainly sciencephobic, r71

Gives new meaning to reality check.

This thread will be deleted like all others. DL is afraid of being labelled transphobic.

This thread is not only transphobic but Islamophobic as well.

R17 She doesn't have a uterus or ovaries but does have internal testes (as I recall). That's not 100% female.

^^^ I think situations like that people are more likely to approach with empathy and a willingness to compromise. Being born intersex is much different than being a 20 year old man and deciding you’re a woman.

A "willingness to compromise" is what has brought women's sport to this ridiculous point, R77.

There should be no compromises on genetic males (whether transgender or intersex) competing in female sports. Maleness is simply too big an advantage. Empathy for individuals born with intersex conditions should not outweigh empathy for the 50 per cent of athletes who are born female, and their right to fair competition. The rule should be if you have a Y chromosome, you don't get in.

Simple solutions: make the male field open to all, including intersex athletes or add a third field for intersex and trans athletes.

Women’s sports are for XX women.

Unfortunately both groups need to be freely discussed here, R75. The fact that they are not fuels people anger even more.

I went to their website (Athlete Ally), and they had a place for comments. So I obliged them, and left one.

[quote]When Obama was elected president, we felt great a step forward out of our US racist past

But not out of America's hypocritical past (and present) as R63's post illustrates.

Real women are not going to take this lying down. Gay men should not be supporting any attempts to deplatform lesbians.

I would bet the majority of her peers totally agree with her but are too terrified to say so. They see what happens if you do.

They're coming for the gay men too, R83. The latest tranny-term is 'TEHM' (= trans exclusionary homosexual male)

Well at least this new “term” isn’t very pronounceable. And these do not need to be all caps. Take some of it’s power away by not shouting.

Should we come up with our own? DMIA? Delusional Mentally Ill Autogynephilias?

MIF? Men in frocks?

How about SHIT:

Sexist

Homophobic

Ignorant

Tr*nscultist

How many hours until DL delete this thread?

This is ridiculous. If this group is convinced Martina was wrong, they should've point by point contradicted what Martina said, instead of just accusing her of being a bigot. Martina's views are sensible, if there are persuasive arguments in opposition, let's here them. This should be about educating people, not shaming them.

My head hurts.

R62 — ITA

I would even enjoy watching trannies compete against one another!!

Sites like Queerty and InstictMagazine remain silent about this issue.

Yes the tweet from PinkNews is absurd, but the comments call 100% bullshit. I take this as a positive sign. It reflects what I have seen in real-life interactions: when people learn what is really going on, their eyes are opened and their opinion of the trans movement/cult/whatever you want to call it changes very quickly.

In defence of Martina Navratilova

Trans activists are carrying on like a religious sect.

Coincidentally there is a bill requiring high school students to participate on sports teams that match their biological sex working its way through the South Dakota legislature.

Fuck those militant trannies. I stand by Martina.

The world's gone truly fucking crazy.

R32, I think most people wouldn’t have a problem with intersex people competing as the gender they identify as since its a biological condition and there would be some ethical roadblocks in trying to determine their “correct” gender. But the system as it is now does not make distinction because people with gender identity disorder or athletes who want an edge by commiting as a different sex that they have biological advantages over. It’s again more accommodations that ignore scientific reality and a slippery slope. What’s next? Schizophrenics using one of the voices in their heads as legal proxy? People with multiple personality syndrome getting social security cards for each of their identities?

I am thoroughly disgusted by this. Martina was a gay rights trailblazer who had to the courage that come out in a time where there were true disadvantages and mockery for doing so. Organizations like Athlete Ally arguably wouldn’t exist without people like her. And once again the brigade of straight white women with borderline personality order and purple hair force their way into organizations like this with a lie about being binary, take control, reorganize the rules to fit their agenda, and force out the people who truly deserve to be there. It’s like the most perverted version of straight women having bachelorette parties at gay bars.

R100 the majority of board members there are men.

My mistake, R101. I just assumed it was like most of the other LGBT organizations that have abandoned the LGB for the T.

R74, so they don't mind being labelled racist and misogynist, yet they are nervous at being called transphobic? Why?

Trans is the new black.

Scared trannies will come after them with an axe r103. They’re not known to be the most stable, nonviolent types.

GLB must now separate from the T. Have same sex sex is different than changing your sex. Or even having a cock and saying that you are the opposite sex.

Agreed r106. Being male attracted to male or female attracted to female is a sexuality. Cross dressing, autogynephilia etc., are not.

Martina has done more with her guts and achievements for the community than practically the entire rest of the alphabet soup.

I like Wings Over Scotland's twitter page, "pronouns: Your Majesty."

"Martina has done more with her guts and achievements for the community than practically the entire rest of the alphabet soup."

She literally gave up MILLIONS of dollars in sponsorships so that other, less fortunate people could be free. How many people would be willing to do that?

I read that about too R 110. Thank you for saying and including that as well.

Homosexual men have not been as brave as lesbians in this.

[quote] Can I "feel" like a cat inside? The queen of England? There are no limits with queer theory.

r12 is the relatively fancier cousin of this sorry woman.

R113 makes a fundamental error, as do the queer theorists.

Queer theory holds that boundaries are inherently bad and it's always radically liberating to transgress them. It follows therefore that anything that transgresses conventional morality is good in the eyes of queer theorists. But this is nonsense. Boundaries and moral codes often exist for good reason.

The moral case for repealing legal and social prohibitions against homosexuality has never rested on 'transgression' as an inherent good. It has always rested on the fact that same-sex relationships harm no one. Even the fundies can't say who is harmed by gay relationships. They have to resort to repeating that the Bible says it's a sin, etc. In other words - dogma, not reason. When homophobes like the woman above try to compare homosexuality to pedophilia or bestiality, it's easy to point to the difference: the latter harm children and animals, whereas same-sex relationships harm no one.

Trans is not like gay liberation because there are clear harms to pushing the idea that people can be born in the wrong body - female athletes lose the right to fair competition, children are being sterilised and mutilated by unscrupulous doctors who falsely claim to be able to change their sex, and so on.

That's why 'Some people are gay, get over it!', was such an effective slogan, BTW. It pointed directly to the fact that trying to suppress a common aspect of human existence, which has zero impact on other people's lives, was stupid and irrational.

Trans, on the other hand, does impact others in negative ways. 'Some hulking men want to compete in women's sports, get over it!' doesn't work quite as well.

'Some kids need their gonads shrivelled and their healthy body parts cut off, get over it!'

See?

There is also the fallacy of “feeling” like the opposite sex. What does being a man feel like? I don’t know, all I know is my lived experience of being a man. It is absolutely impossible for me or anyone else to know what being female feels like because it is an amorphous idea that even if it could be quantified *I have never experienced it because I am not female*.

A desire to be part of the societal stereotypes of femininity or masculinity or even to emulate a physical resemblance does not mean you ARE inherently that sex. It just means you fall outside the social expectations of your biological reality.

Can we please stop applauding the mental illness known as trans? Im tired of this bullshit. Navratilova is right, and she should know, as she was out there alone in 1981 championing gay rights and being an out athlete dominating the world stage. A true hero in the gay world and rightly so. For a gay right organization to remove her for what is clearly an intelligent assessment of "female" trans athletes is ridiculous. It is the very height of male privilege and patriarchy to live ones life as a male, with male opportunities and access, and then decide to proclaim yourself "female" and claim there is no difference between you and people born female. A quick DNA test would deflate that argument. Rubbish.

I wonder who was in that board that removed her? Gay men? Lesbians? Straight men? Straight women?

*on

The tweets from Trans et. al. keep insisting that “not ALL trans women are winning in women’s sports, so it’s not unfair.” By that logic because some bio women could beat men, then women’s sports shouldn’t exist at all and all sports should be integrated. Wonder who will dominate then...

Of course it's not about any given trans woman being able to beat any given female, it's that the BEST trans woman will ALWAYS beat the BEST female. Serena could kick my (male) ass in tennis, but that doesn't invalidate women's tennis as a whole, since the best male tennis players will always beat Serena, no contest. The Jonathon Liew piece in the Independent wishing for a women's sport dominated by trans women will eventually get his wish. The population proportion of trans women doesn't support the number of trans women champions in women's sport that we are seeing, in time this will correct itself.

r89 These threads have actually been surviving for a LOT longer than I think anyone thought. Muriel peaked by Martina?

YAY MARTINA !!!! LUV U BABE

It's so strange to see the vast majority of people on social media agreeing with Martina. We're watching mass Peak Trans happening in real time. The general public are waking up to something that DL realised about four years ago.

Yes I hope we are witnessing Peak Trans too. There might be people who truly feel trapped in the wrong body but those individuals are rare. Letting people just identity whatever they want is one of the main problems. Allowing a biological male to put on make up and a wig and just say he is a woman is ridiculous.

I'm afraid Martina opposes transgender; not transsexual. Apparently, a coach of hers was transsexual.

Some people are going to compare this situation to gay marriage and other equal rights issues. Gay marriage was about equal rights plain and simple. Gay marriage didn’t involve throwing other minority groups under the bus and dissolving all of their hard work.

You say that R126 but Datalounge makes fun of gay men who get married to each other? Like today? There was a thread I blocked after I posted asking why these men, who aren’t transitioning into women, are put down for using the rights awarded to them? It’s not the weight people are making fun of either. I think any and all gay marriage announcement is made into a thread and met with hostility here.

It's time for us to stop accepting the ridiculous, pejorative misnomer "transphobic" for people who say, hey, live your life as you choose, but a man is a man and a woman is a woman, and don't attack us when we point that out.

Pretty soon there'll be "autismphobic" to label people who don't believe vaccines cause autism, and "knollphobic" for people who don't believe that JFK was shot by someone in the grassy knoll, and "explosaphobic" for people who believe the WTC and Pentagon were destroyed by planes and not controlled explosions.

I won't be labeled "cis" and I won't be labeled "queer" and I won't be labeled "transphobic." I'm not scared of or angry at trans people. But they have not, and cannot, change sex. Period.

How many FTM trans have competed against men?

This person wasn’t a professional athlete but a FTM was on The Ellen Show around two years ago and admitted that being a girl on the girls team she came in #1 but after she started to transition into a male and play on the male team she was #8. Of course none of the males on the team complained about the FTM playing on their team because they knew they would still win.

Race relations deteriorated during Obama's administration.

When we criticize fundamentalism in Christianity I have never heard once the term christianophobic used. That's because it's sanctioned by the extreme left. Otherwise they'll throw the words Transphobic and Islamophobic around like confetti.

Yep, R132. Between 2020-2024 it’s going to be a dark time for gays, in my opinion. Or, if not a dark time, then a time where nothing happens for them such housing and labor laws.

If we abolish the notion of gender and/or allow people to legally be any gender they choose, or no gender, then how can we not do the same for race? Race, unlike gender, isn't binary, so if Elizabeth Warren actually identifies as Cherokee, or Rachel Dolezal as black, why should they not get treated as such? Why were they criticized?

Remember the guy who was in his 60s but identified as someone in his 20s? Why was he mocked? At least he WAS in his 20s for 10 years. Bruce/Caitlyn never was a woman for a nanosecond.

I want to go back to the time when sex and gender were not used indiscriminately to describe physical reality. A person with XY chromosomes is very definitely male regardless of what he chooses to call himself, what he wears, who he dates, how he performs social expectations.

We need to make people aware that breaking gender roles is progressive, not saying “I like pink therefore I’m a girl”.

Interesting video and very interesting commentss.

I think the video at R136 anecdotally proves just how much social media is to blame for the current batch of trans craziness. Five or ten years ago I was so pro-trans. The people who I knew were truly trans. Not just confused gay teens hating themselves for one reason or another.

It also illustrates the power of escalation of commitment. Once you've committed to something that may be a bit negative or have negative elements, you actually commit with even more rigor. Most of these kids had internal doubts, but they were part of a community, so they went all in, despite those doubts.

r114's picture is next to the dictionary definition of "incorrigible". They're either a TERF troll or weirdly aspire to act like one.

I disagree with r138, and agree with r114.

I’ve been out since the early 90s, am college educated, have a professional career, own my home, & have saved well for retirement.

Nothing rad or queer about me. I should have credibility within the gay community...

Letting same-sex couples marry does not require changing the definition of sex.

I agree with r114 too. And agree with r12. It's not uncommon for mentally ill T's to also "feel" that they're some other make believe thing in addition to their make believe womanhood. Like Stephonknee, who claims to be a little girl. Or the ones who want to be treated like babies (250lb babies). Or that MtT who also fantasized about being disabled and got himself a wheelchair and handicapped parking pass and everything. Or the "dragon lady." Are the rest of us supposed to take them at their word that they're actually babies, little girls, disabled, or dragons? Or are we only required to pretend to believe that they're females because they all identify as such?

Agree, R141, like this transgender woman who:

"became so obsessed with Bratz Dolls as a teenager she had bum implants to look like one"

and

"who became dazzled by...Jackie Stallone"

[quote]Rather than seeing gender as something external to us, influencing and shaping us against our will, a gender identity is, its proponents argue, within us. What this means in practice is this: A woman is a woman not because of her sex but because she identifies with the sex stereotypes associated with ‘woman’.

This piece was posted in the other thread, and it's worth a read if only for it putting into words the biggest problem I personally have with trans activism, in that it's subtly redefining words and insisting that anyone who disagrees with the new definition is a bigot. I've said this before: I'm not against trans people and I will treat them exactly the same as anyone else, including using their preferred pronouns (within reason), but supporting trans people does NOT give them carte blanche to redefine the REST of society.

So, do you think gender dysphoria is a mental disorder and should be treated as such?

So far, there is no sound evidence men and women have inherently different brains or any are in the brain that determines gender identity. I don't have a gender identity. Outside physical attributes I don't know what being a man is supposed to feel like. This is something that frustrates me about trans activism, it puts words in people's mouth.

I believe there is a masculine thought and feminine thought. Regardless, there are physical attributes to the sexes that makes one more dominate than the other. I don't deny someone feels they are the opposite sex of which they were born. What I do deny and support Martina is men, because of their physiology, have an advantage in sports over women.

Beleving somehing is not factual. Men and women are not bound to different sets of thoughts.

There is definitely a masculine and a feminine thought R146.

Transgender people exercising their male privilege.

'including using their preferred pronouns (within reason)'

What do you mean exactly here 'within reason'?

r149 Not this.

Prove it r147.

There are just thoughts. These will be shaped by your life experience.

Finally. When are medical professionals going to respond to this? Why do pharmaceutical companies going to respond? Last time I checked, women's bodies responds to not only certain illnesses, but medicine differently than men's. Why is no one mentioning that even with female hormone therapy, most transmen never reach the hormone levels of bio women. When do all of these professionals, start being professionals?

When they’re no longer afraid of being stalked, doxxed and sued into oblivion r152. There’s a reason a high percentage of trans are convicted violent criminals.

Stop the madness!

R153, then we're fucked.

Here is what I don't understand, if transgenderism is a disconnect between a person's perceived gender in their brain, and the sex or gender of their body, why is the only solution focused on changing the body to fit the mind, and not changing the mind to fit the body?

r156 because that would be transfobic.

Yes R156 this is why transgenderism has been rightfully considered a mental illness for decades.

Imagine if a severely underweight and dangerously unhealthy anorexic went to their doctor and insisted that they are too fat. Imagine the doctor not ordering mental health treatment and nutritional counseling, but instead ordering diet pills and liposuction. Imagine the far left indulging this delusion and demanding that that yes we all must acknowledge that they are indeed too fat even thought they are clearly too thin otherwise you are an ANOREXIPHOBIC. Imagine the scientific community going completely against science and telling us that body weight is what you imagine in your mind, not what physical data clearly shows. Imagine the government paying for liposuction for someone 30 pounds underweight and bone thin. Imagine the far left demanding laws be made punishing people for not agreeing that a dangerously unhealthy and underweight person is fat. Imagine important resources and support groups for people actually suffering from anorexia being hijacked and revamped to accommodate the delusions of the faux-anorexics.

The trans agenda is beyond Orwellian at this point.

That should have been "Imagine important resources and support groups for people actually suffering from OBESITY being hijacked and revamped to accommodate the delusions of the faux-fatty"

I've posted way too much lately.

I'm laid up and have way too much time on my hands.

Here's Martina.

I was lucky, very lucky to get a job at a restaurant in Beverly Hills.

Martina was a regular. When you are a server you have a special access.

This woman is a treasure.

I've met everybody. She was/is one of the best.

F the haters. She speaks the truth.

Martina Navratilova has and has always had the BIGGEST MOUTH in sports, or show business for that matter. What kind of fool puts her on the board of their organization and not expect her to shoot her mouth off? Because it's a prestigious position? LOL.

The problem is that there is no scentific evidence that a sense of gender identity is located anywhere in the brain. If there were such thing then we all should experience a feeling of gender (in my case I have never felt such thing). People would not detransition either.

Gender dysphoria is not in the brain; it's in the mind, self-perception, how they reflect on others based on gender stereotypes.

You obviously have never met her r161.

Shame on all of us for attacking our own.

[quote]What kind of fool puts her on the board of their organization and not expect her to shoot her mouth off?

She's not "shooting her mouth off," she's a smart woman expressing an informed opinion. Do you have a problem with that, Mr. Sexist?

R161 - Obvious (and pathetic) attempt to discredit her.

What's your self serving interest in doing so, R161 ?

I need to be clearer for those with comprehension problems.

Dummies, I have been a fan of Martina's since 1976. I love her, her tennis, her outspokenness. But she IS outspoken - on EVERYTHING, and has been for more than 30 years. She says whatever she thinks without filter. Good. My question is why this LGBTQ group would expect her to change just because she's on their board. This comment is not "discrediting" her, as has been said, even you - the pathetic one R165. Guess you're new to Martina World.

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

Martina Navratilova asks: ‘where did I go wrong’ on ‘the transgender problem’? Umm...

Unfortunate article.^

Love how the press (well, the Guardian, bastion of all things outre) frames this as a conflict between two groups (trans and women) with equal rights to compete.

Hey Guardian, It's "women's" sports, not "men who think they are women's" sports.

That a person is biologically female is quantifiable, Guardian. Feelings in heads are not.

The End

Even when voicing disagreement people still have to be so obsequious towards transgender people. If you are clear that it is biology that makes a woman a woman you should stand by that in every sentence.

I’m sad Martina apologized.

Martina is a coward and sell-out. Look at her twitter—retweeting that AOC asshole and “Islamophobia”. Fuck her.

Where did Martina apologize? I don't believe she did.

Is it worth having this last thread if sooner or later DL staff will delete?

R172 she only apologized for using the term "cheating" but then doubled down on everything else she said. She's not backing down.

The article at R168 is from Outsports which recently came under the control of a man who identifies as a woman called Dawn Ennis.

The back story of Dawn Ennis who recently took over control of Outsports. Dawn is now back to identifying as a woman.

^^would this person be put in a mental institution back in the day?

PinkNews is alo pretty much invested in calling lesbians transphobes. I stopped visiting that site long ago.

Ex-swimmer Sharron Davies on why she opposes transgender athletes in women's sports.

I love all these people R180. Good for her. Protect women’s sport.

Oh good lord, that Outsports article compares Martina Navratilova to Josef Goebbels. TERF Twitter is not having it.

^That managing editor got scared about going over the line, yanked the comment, and gave a lame excuse without really apologizing.

EDITOR’S NOTE: A reference to Joseph Goebbels and Nazi propaganda known as “The Jewish Question” has been removed from this article. It was seen by some as implying that Martina Navratilova, in her describing the issue of transgender inclusion as “the transgender problem,” was herself advocating extermination of trans people or otherwise imitating Nazi-like behavior.

The POS didn't "imply" anything. This sort of hysterical rage when women talk back is typical of these assholes. Extra bonus "woke" points for smearing if the woman is gay.

With this and too many other things, the Guardian is in fucking sufferable.

I'm glad Martina didn't back down. She's very brave. It's just a shame that her peers are so chickenshit.

To be 'transphobic' literally means you have to have an irrational fear of trans people. Nothing in Ms Navratilova's comments suggests she has an irrational fear of trans. Ms Navratilova's does, however, seems to have rather rational concerns about trans.

The mainstream world loves Martina. The sensible part of the world won't condone what is being done to the brave Martina.

Woman/man, sexual orientation, they have something in common, they are biological realities and testable.

That Outsports site is not very professional. The articles read like a post on Datalounge.

Martina was a trailblazer for the lesbian and gay community. How dare they do this.

Again with the jars:

I was on a hair loss drug that lowered my testosterone and increased my estradiol and was still stronger and faster than the average woman.

Geriatric men, who have lowered testosterone and increased testosterone and geriatric women who have lowered estrogen and increased testosterone (the opposite for women due to menopause) are STILL stronger than geriatric women regardless if they have higher testosterone.

*oops increased estrogen (for men) typo.

I wonder how this will end. I wonder if we will see LGB-only organizations or if LGB people will wander homeless now...

This all started when we caved in and put the L before the G.

50-100 years from now, we will see here in the US (as well as other places) what we see in Iran. You can’t be gay but you can transition into the opposite gender or remain celibate. Some countries will say “fuck you” to this but the US usually caves to things like this and American gays cave too. It’s all PC.

I have a feeling the t will be moving closer to the front of the alphabet soup

Wasn’t there a story yesterday about a gay man forced to wear a wedding dress to his wedding?

It won't be 50 years from now, R197. UN Aids has some kind of brochure that I saw on Twitter, but can't find again, where it encourages men to love transgender "women" (who BTW have a very high rate of HIV)

If you go to the transgender sprinter thread, you can see that 20 US Attorney Generals of "liberal" states have filed an amicus brief in a Florida transgender school bathroom case, in which the AG's rewrite the definition of biological sex.

How can you define yourself as a gay man when there's no definition for the word "man"?

From the amicus brief:

[quote] But neither Title IX nor its implementing regulations define “sex” in terms of biological sex; and present-day understandings of sex recognize that a person’s status as male or female is based on a variety of physiological and psychological traits that do not necessarily equate to external genitalia or the assignment of a particular sex at birth.58 Title IX should not be read to ignore these developments.59

Martina retweets “Islamophobia” tweets so tread with caution with her.

Wow, R200. That is just crazy. I think I’m all done with Democrats.

Link r201, otherwise I believe you're full of shit.

Look at her twitter.

But even if Martina has different views on other subjects than you do, how does that invalidate her thoughts on this issue, R201?

She's a world class athlete who faced tremendous discrimination as a woman and as a lesbian. She had a transgender coach herself. She grew up behind the Iron Curtain and knows first hand the insanity of totalitarianism. She has fought for lgbtQ rights, before there was an lgbTQ, at huge risk to herself.

This kind of ideological purity is why the US it is in. Before, people would cross party lines to work together on issues they were concerned about. Now, it's "you are in lockstep with me on EVERY SINGLE ISSUE or you're a "Russian bot" or "Trumpkin" even if the accused has spent their life working on progressive issues.

Martina is more than right on this issue. She if fighting for your rights, because the Transgender Lobby is redefining biological sex in a way that will erases gay men and women (see R200)

R191, jars appear to be kryptonite to trans "women". Sports bodies should just start requiring that athletes demonstrate that they can open a jar before competing professionally - apparently not a single trans women would qualify. Problem solved.

My mother has been successfully opening jars for over 60 years now .

"She had a transgender coach herself."

R205, Renee Richards is a transsexual, not "transgendered." There is a difference.

It looks like it is always heterosexual men who think they are women the ones who are constantly demanding that they be included in women-only spaces. Gay men who think they are women don't seem to be this pushy.

I’m gonna block R 205. No Islam-apologists for me. Go away.

I don’t trust her. Her views will change. Just watch.

I don’t trust her. You can’t defend Islam and then have opinions on transgenderism. If Islam was the majority, I’d either be dead or a “female”. Forget it. I don’t trust her.

Trans women are men. When anyone pretends otherwise, they are simply being polite, not reflecting an inherent truth. If you oblige people to ignore biological reality, rather than using their good grace to respect chosen names and pronouns, they are eventually going to call bullsh*t and call back. That’s starting to happen.

*push back not call back.

We called men women when we were asked nicely and it didn’t really matter. If you expect us not to notice in competitive sports or sexual encounters, you’re not being reasonable. The general population does not share the trans delusion.

........

If the Transgender Lobby and the spineless Democrats/ corporations backing them have their way, and the definition of biological sex changes to anything goes at the federal level (it's already been changed by many states) via the proposed Equality Act, you as a gay man, R212, will have no way to describe yourself because neither the words "gay" nor "man" will have any meaning.

And you, like every other gay man, will lose legal protection. Thanks, Trans, Inc.

But you know that, and you're here to disparage Martina in the vain hope that it will bring people to the gay-hating manipulations of Transgender, Inc.

[quote] The back story of Dawn Ennis who recently took over control of Outsports. Dawn is now back to identifying as a woman

What on earth? It's crazy that a person who clearly has a history of mental instability is now in a position where he's practically deciding the course of an important LGBT organization.

I'm a slightly bi gay man who grew up as a girly boy up until my mid teens. I even had some people asking me wouldn't I rather be a girl. Now a man in my forties I still don't view myself as traditionally male but I'm happy being who I am. So I do understand to a point what trans people are going through in their minds.

For a long time I was defending trans people here, especially because right wingers and Russian trolls were attacking them. I still think some trans people truly are happier living in their bodies after transitioning, and that it's really up to an individual what they do after they've reached adulthood. However I do now think kids shouldn't be allowed to start the treatments until their puberty is truly over. I've actually always thought that way since I saw with myself what a difference a few years made. That said I never felt like I was really a girl.

Now the sports thing. If Renee Richards says trans women have an advantage against women in sports I believe her way more than people like Don/Dawn Ennis. Especially if those trans women haven't gotten rid of their cocks and balls. I wish all the best for trans people and I know their lives haven't been easy but this fight about being seen as equals with women in sports they are going to lose. Especially when they start winning more and more. And especially if they still have male genitals.

It really is alarming how quickly trans women have taken over almost all gay organizations. I mean how many of us would really want a person like Don/Dawn Ennis or Caitlyn Jenner presenting us or deciding what's good for us? I recently caught an episode of I Am Cait where she was traveling in a bus with her trans friends. It was quite telling how she behaved when she got heated up when people questioned her Trump support. She behaved like someone who's the only one knowing the truth. She had no intentions of letting anyone affect her decisions. Obviously not all trans women are like her but many seem to be. It was also quite telling when an old school transsexual pioneer traveling with them said of herself that she is not a woman but a transsexual. Many current day trans women really seem to be playing power games and are trying to get into positions where they're ruling women and the only way to do that is becoming women themselves. Or pretending to become women since apparently 90% of trans women hold on to their dicks and balls. Knowing how primitive the sex change operations still are I certainly get that but they really shouldn't be pretending to be women when they are not. Especially in sports.

[QUOTE] Queer theory holds that boundaries are inherently bad

No they aren’t! State your boundaries whenever possible! Tell them NOW so you don’t have to tell them THEN.

R215, the ONLY thing Martina apologized for is calling ALL trans competing against women cheaters. That's it. That isn't even an important part of her op-ed.

The rules that allow trans women to compete against women are what the cheat is.

Nonetheless I do believe there are males who ARE cheating and pretending to be transwomen so they can compete and win all that comes with winning - scholarships, records. It will be interesting to revisit these people 5 or 10 years from now.

r219, if they're found to not be living "as a woman," shouldn't they have to pay the scholarship back?

[quote] I'm a slightly bi gay man

r217 You do know that "gay" isn't something you identify as, right? It's a word that describes your innate attraction, as in "a man who is exclusively attracted to the same sex is a gay (homosexual) man, regardless of how he 'identifies' himself." So if you experience both same-sex and opposite-sex attraction to any degree above zero, you are a fully bi not gay man, and you should be proud to be bisexual (and stop appropriating a sexual orientation that doesn't apply to you)!

R117 He's nice and he has depression but you already knew that.

"Trans gal" Liam "Lily" Madigan is mad again. And again grasping at the coat tails of actual women who've actually done something positive for both women and transsexuals. . A dim, useless, young man, less than average in every way, pretending to be a lesbian and a socialist, telling Martina "You're a transphobic bigot. Block me thx" plus a selfie that's been put through a few dozen filters.

His entitlement is offensive. And if he identifies as a lesbian, well no; women are lesbians because they are attracted to their shared biological reality which men don't possess. Lesbianism is a trait aligned with biological reality; it's not an identity. R223

R221, I'm Kinsey 5, and it really does make me a slightly bi gay man. I know saying it like that sounds funny but calling myself bi wouldn't sound right since I've been living as a gay man for over 25 years. My lust for women was always weak and even though it still is there I haven't fantasized about women since my early 20s, and even then it was forced to a point. I'm sure most gay guys feeling the same wouldn't even see themselves anything else than gay but in my teens I had a few love affairs with girls my age which showed me I can love women. Sex with my last girlfriend when I was 19 was fun and loving even though I was lusting way way more after men at the time.

I grew up in a small homophobic town and dating guys in my early and mid teens was not an option, especially after being constantly bullied for being a girly boy. Some girls however seemed to love femme guys like myself and that's why I started dating them, because why not. I tried to force myself to like them sexually and to my satisfaction there was enough straight in me to do just that. A butch girl in my class used to call me a lezzie.

I'm telling this to show that I get how complex gender issues and sexuality can be. I've never really felt at home with any group of people. I've been told by straight boys I'm a disgusting sissy fa ggot. I've been told by gay men bisexuals are disgusting and should all die. I've been told by some women I've gone after that I'm gay, not that there really has been that many. In a way I feel genderless, sort of like Orlando from Sally Potter's movie. Not surprisingly Boy George was my hero when growing up, I was 12 in 1984 after all. I assume some trans people feel like me, like they're neither a woman nor a man, but they try to be one.

The past few years have been weird to witness. I have wondered what my life would be like had I grown up during a time like this. I've been seeing a therapist for the past two years to treat my depression, which was at least partly caused by the bullying in my teens. Before settling on with my current one I saw a couple others briefly. One of them, a straight woman, rather quickly suggested I might be trans after hearing I'm gay and had been quite girly back in the day. It felt weird to hear that, especially since I hadn't suggested it myself. It made me wonder how many young people are asked the same thing, and who start thinking they might be trans if they don't completely feel like a boy or a girl.

Iain M. Banks wrote in his Culture scifi novels how people lived for hundreds of years and some changed sex many times during their lifetime. It's a beautiful fantasy but we're not there technologically yet. You just can't turn a man into a woman, or vice versa. There's always a sense of having to pretend around trans people, whether you like it or not. The reality is trans women are not women, although obviously I'm sure some are more than others. But in sports they have an advantage over women. If you want to compete you compete with and against other trans people, it's as simple as that.

A long post, sorry for that.

He's a dick. He's probably whatever Oppositional Defiant Disorder kids are when they're too old to be called that. Has a standard cycle- 1. Posts aggressive, stupid goading tweet, 2.Harvests the responses 3. Retweets for sympathy and donations 4.Inevitably gets in over his head and is proven wrong/has lies exposed, 5. Needs to 'have a break from Twitter" because twanzphobia !1!, 4.Brave return in less than a day, with a filtered selfie, captioned 'Feeling cute', and demanding praise. Repeat.

r225

[quote]Sex with my last girlfriend

This is where I stopped reading. It's bad enough we have to deal with heterosexual nonsense in the rest of the world, I have no time for it here.

R227, unfortunately that tells more about you than me. If you want to have an honest conversation with someone you don't just shut down and turn away if you hear something you don't want to hear. Especially when you're the one who commented on my earlier post about bisexuality. Now you're too high and mighty to talk about it? Acting the way you do really doesn't make you any better than people like Don/Dawn Ennis who act like there's only the truth they're presenting, and act insulted when people don't play by the rules they've created thenselves.

Detransition & Self Acceptance

I respect Martina for her stance on this issue.

AFP: Women’s tennis chief welcomes transgender players

HONG KONG: The women’s tennis tour would welcome transgender players, its chief executive told AFP on Friday, after Martina Navratilova caused a furore by branding trans athletes as cheats.

Steve Simon, CEO of the Women’s Tennis Association, said the tour’s policy was in line with Olympic standards, which state that male-to-female trans athletes can compete without gender reassignment surgery, subject to a maximum testosterone level.

“The WTA has always been an organisation based on acceptance and providing people equal opportunity,” Simon said by phone from the official launch of this year’s WTA Finals in Shenzhen, China. “Right now our policies do provide for (transgender players),” he added. “They are not necessarily in line with Martina’s position. “But we respect all the various opinions... she’s looking for the topic to be debated further and I think it’s a very fair position to be taking.”

[quote]The WTA has always been an organisation based on acceptance and providing people equal opportunity

Nothing about it is equal for the women when they're forced to compete against men, Steve.

Anyone here think Steve Simon would be up for dating transwomen who hadn't undergone SRS? Because they're [italic]totally[/italic] identical to women as long as their testosterone levels are lowered a bit, right?

Now Debra Messing's on their shit list for posting a pic of vulva cupcakes on International Women's Day. Unlike Martina, she groveled for them.

Men hijacking Women's Day. Ballsy bastards.

Nothing says Women's Day like an MRA's wish to murder women.

r231 Couple things:

1. As many of us have said, nothing will advance the inevitable segregation of trans women from female athletes faster than letting them compete against each other, so I applaud this article. Given time, transwomen will dominate "women's" sports, since the best trans woman will ALWAYS beat the best female, and that is indisputable, biological fact.

2. LMAO at:

[quote]“But we respect all the various opinions... she’s looking for the topic to be debated further and I think it’s a very fair position to be taking.”

Evidently he doesn't understand that to TRA's, even entertaining the idea that a debate might be possible is LITERAL VIOLENCE and TRANSPHOBIC. I always love when these uninitiated but good-spirited people enter the trans-wars and think what they're saying is reasonable (often it is!) but don't understand that TRA's will rip them to shreds for it. Anything short of total dogmatic alignment is transphobic and you are a bigot if you disagree.

Likewise, detransition is being more and more talked about.

Testosterone levels are such a small part of what makes men stronger and faster than women. Pumping Nadal, Bolt, Mo Farrah, Phelps with estrogen would likely make them slip down in ranking compared to other male athletes in their field but they would still trounce other non-elite men and elite women. Of course a ftm wouldn’t have a prayer in most men’s sports but I would hope contact sports would have the sense to say no to a ftm who wanted to get in the ring with McGregor or a mtf who wanted to join the women’s boxing league.

Part of this is a symptom of our society which breeds entitlement and tells people they never have to accept no. Parents are allowed to harvest their dead son’s sperm so they can make their own grandbabies ffs. Sometimes you just can’t have what you want. Competing in sports is not a right. I can’t be a pilot because I’m color blind. End of. My brother couldn’t be a professional jockey because a growth spurt took him to 6’2 with a large frame. It was his passion since he could walk but life isn’t fair. He became a trainer instead. So many brilliant teenage athletes can’t transition to the professional leagues because their biology lets them down. Should we let a 200 lb guy compete as a feather weight because he was a star featherweight as a 14 year old but can’t win a match as an adult heavyweight? Should a male ballet dancer be subjected to lifting Chrissy Metz because she feels like a dancer.

Why can’t trans become coaches, trainers, sports journalists, umpires, referees like every other person who is passionate about sports but not blessed with the genetics to compete.

Note: This article is behind a paywall.

The Telegraph: Sharron Davies on the transgender sports row: ‘How can this be fair to women?’

Sharron Davies was stopped by strangers in the street half a dozen times this week. The former Great Britain swimmer – she won a silver medal at the 1980 Moscow Olympics and two Commonwealth golds – is used to being recognised every now and then, but as she walked around Bath on Tuesday, the interactions were of a different kind.

“It was all parents who were just saying to me, ‘Thank you. Thank you for speaking out on this,’” she recalls when we meet at her home near the city. “People didn’t realise what was going on.” The debate Davies has been congratulated for partaking in is one that’s slowly consumed women’s sport for much of the past month: whether transgender competitors should be allowed...

Good for Martina. Good for her standing up.

Jesus, r235

How on earth can that acceptable to the left???

Fucking madness.

[quote]Now Debra Messing's on their shit list for posting a pic of vulva cupcakes

Debra: "I did not, however, think 'but there are innumerable beautiful, unique and powerful women who don't have a vagina.' And I SHOULD have."

Debra: "I did not, however, think 'but there are innumerable beautiful, unique and powerful women who don't have a vagina.' And I SHOULD have."

No, there aren't. "Women" without a vagina are called MEN. A simple truth the trans lobby seems forget at every step.

A new subreddit for gay men, lesbians, and bi people who want to drop the T:

R242 explains one of the reasons I hate [italic]sWill & disGrace[/italic]. It exists to reinforce gay stereotypes and to reinforce hetero females’ sense of entitlement to gay male spaces, culture, and bodies. The women on that show are just as problematic as the men.