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Remember Lockerbie?

Pan Am 103, Clipper Maid of the Seas was blown out of the Scottish skies December 21st 1988 by a bomb hidden in a cassette player. 259 passengers and crew died a well as 11 Lockerbie residents. 179 Americans died, including 35 Syracuse University students.

Attached is a link to a BBC article, which may be of interest to the younger DL readers

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by Anonymousreply 102December 22, 2018 2:04 AM

I once had a date with a guy who was a Pan Am steward back then and knew many of the crew that were killed.

by Anonymousreply 1December 13, 2018 3:42 AM

I flew with Pan Am from London back to the US a week later and my flight was hours later because of extensive screening and searching of luggage.

I can’t even imagine the horror of finding those dead bodies in your back yard.

by Anonymousreply 2December 13, 2018 3:51 AM

A friend was checking in at Heathrow next to the Pan Am desk for check in on the flight and remembers a little girl in the line, maybe 3 or 4, in a red dress. He tears up when he talks about her.

by Anonymousreply 3December 13, 2018 3:53 AM

I had spent the semester in London and came back on Pan Am about a week prior to Lockerbie. I remember hearing the first news reports while driving to visit family in Maryland. I met a lot of American students at events when I was there but didn’t remember anyone specifically from Syracuse, Pan Am Airlines seems such a long ago thing now.

by Anonymousreply 4December 13, 2018 3:55 AM

There’s a memorial colonnade on the campus of SU with the names of the dead students.

by Anonymousreply 5December 13, 2018 3:56 AM

Was the latest Stacy Q in the cassette cuz things may not be what they seemed.......

by Anonymousreply 6December 13, 2018 3:58 AM

This is a pretty-good book written by a guy whose older brother died in the crash.

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by Anonymousreply 7December 13, 2018 4:13 AM

Very good friends of my parents had a daughter who was traveling on a semester abroad and was on the flight. It wrecked the family. They never recovered.

by Anonymousreply 8December 13, 2018 4:17 AM

[quote] A friend was checking in at Heathrow next to the Pan Am desk for check in on the flight and remembers a little girl in the line, maybe 3 or 4, in a red dress.

She was also in Schindler's List. Such potential snuffed too soon.

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by Anonymousreply 9December 13, 2018 4:21 AM

My friend's cousin was on that plane. This family had political ties and had access to unpublished reports that said that most of the passengers died from impact, not from the explosion which means most were alive from the time of the explosion until the fuselage hit the ground. I think each passenger's family received around 10 million dollars from the Libyan government which means nothing compared to the scope of the tragedy. Gaddafi was killed by his own people with a bayonet shoved up his ass after being dragged from a hole in the ground. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

by Anonymousreply 10December 13, 2018 4:22 AM

[quote]This family had political ties and had access to unpublished reports that said that most of the passengers died from impact, not from the explosion which means most were alive from the time of the explosion until the fuselage hit the ground.

"They all died instantly!" is a fiction that everyone is desperate to believe when a plane goes down.

by Anonymousreply 11December 13, 2018 4:34 AM

R10 here. My Father was in a private plane crash. His friend was the pilot. It was a two engine Piper. My Father survived because he was in the back. He was also a nervous flier so had a lot to drink. He said the whole thing was like slow motion and the plane broke apart after hitting treetops on takeoff.

by Anonymousreply 12December 13, 2018 4:40 AM

Too young to remember this when it happened but I can read about plane crashes all day so I have some knowledge of it. I used to work with someone who was in the airline business at the time and the security measures by PanAm seem like a shitshow.

by Anonymousreply 13December 13, 2018 4:43 AM

I flew Monday (Lockerbie was on Wednesday) & still remember the shock of having escaped by such a narrow margin. Our flight path was identical to 103. We took flying a little more seriously after that . . .

by Anonymousreply 14December 13, 2018 4:48 AM

Didn't Pan Am go bankrupt because of this? They were also sued by every family who lost someone and I think the litigation drove them into bankruptcy.

by Anonymousreply 15December 13, 2018 4:50 AM

I knew one of those killed. She was a college student named Anne. Her family was never the same. All so unnecessary. GD terrorists.

by Anonymousreply 16December 13, 2018 4:52 AM

I went to Syracuse and remember the memorial. I was too young to remember when it happened, so seeing the memorial was the first time I heard about it.

by Anonymousreply 17December 13, 2018 4:54 AM

I graduated from SU the year before and knew one of the students killed. He was a very handsome and nice guy from North Dakota. His brother also went to SU.

Sad.

by Anonymousreply 18December 13, 2018 6:06 AM

A guy in my high school graduating class was booked on that flight- he was a freshman at the time. He ran as fast as he could to make it to the gate and just missed it. Can you even imagine? I always wanted to ask him about it, but he was very quiet and I never did.

by Anonymousreply 19December 13, 2018 7:12 AM

I was quite young, but I'll never forget this. It was haunting. I remember one of the news programs showing a body still strapped into their seat dangling from a roof.

by Anonymousreply 20December 13, 2018 7:19 AM

I remember a BBC documentary about this some years ago. Some things have stuck in my memory, like the farmer who saw debris falling on his land and went out to investigate. He found a man still strapped in his seat. The farmer and his wife sat with the body through the night, as they didn’t want it to be alone.

There were also a group of volunteer ladies from Lockerbie who spent months washing and sorting the personal effects which fell from the plane for miles around. The police had the films developed from every camera they found, and the pictures were analysed to identify what belonged to which passenger and the items were returned to the families.

by Anonymousreply 21December 13, 2018 7:31 AM

The citizens of Lockerbie were incredibly compassionate throughout the recovery experience. The deceased passengers were scattered throughout the town-on roofs, in fields, in yards- and they could not be moved immediately. The town was a crime scene and each causality had to be dealt with forensically. One of the most heart wrenching things I read was that these simple people used their finest linens to shroud the dead, as a show of respect and love. I wonder if I would have thought to do something so selfless, in the face of such horror.

by Anonymousreply 22December 13, 2018 8:42 AM

I saw many interviews with the residents of Lockerbie. They are kind and wonderful people who were devastated. They begged people to come to Lockerbie to see what a wonderful place t is. My heart broke for them. Does anyone know how many people from the town died on the ground? Thank you

by Anonymousreply 23December 13, 2018 5:10 PM

11 Lockerbie residents died when the wings crashed down on one of their streets (Sherwood Crescent).

by Anonymousreply 24December 13, 2018 5:12 PM

R24, Thank you

by Anonymousreply 25December 13, 2018 5:44 PM

my niece was supposed to be on that flight but decided to stay an extra day where she was so she changed her flight.

by Anonymousreply 26December 13, 2018 5:57 PM

r8 I also grew up with one of the SU students who was killed. Her family also never fully recovered. Can't believe its been 30 years already.

by Anonymousreply 27December 13, 2018 6:07 PM

It is well known that one late passenger ran to the gate and just missed it, but he was not R19’s guy. I’ve never read of any other passenger who narrowly missed it.

Kim Cattrall was booked on the flight but changed her plans in advance, I think just that same day.

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by Anonymousreply 28December 13, 2018 6:12 PM

I remember this Syracuse student, Alexander Lowenstein.. Very handsome. His mom is a sculptor and created this piece depicting grief.

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by Anonymousreply 29December 13, 2018 6:15 PM

I was home reading a book, enjoying a mental health day, when the news came on the Today show. What struck me was a local, standing on a rise overlooking the still-burning wreckage who said he'd heard the plane was filled with American students, and was very sorry.

A month later, I had to drive by there on my way to Dumfries, and stopped for a snack in the Safeway of town. By then, everything had been walled off so there was nothing to see, but when I went to buy some cream cheese, a local warned me of a listeria outbreak in soft cheeses. I said I wasn't worried about a name brand like Philadelphia, and when he heard my US accent, he got embarrassed and walked away. Then I realized that the families of the dead might had flown over to be near the site, and he thought I was one of them.

The crash really devastated that town.

by Anonymousreply 30December 13, 2018 6:24 PM

Photos of the Syracuse students

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by Anonymousreply 31December 13, 2018 6:29 PM

Years ago I met a Scottish policeman who was one of the crew picking up body parts. He described it as a vision of hell. He also said quite a lot of first responders had PTSD afterwards.

by Anonymousreply 32December 13, 2018 6:31 PM

Interesting sculpture by the mother of one of the students

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by Anonymousreply 33December 13, 2018 6:50 PM

The locals didn't know what to do, so they washed the clothes of the dead...

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by Anonymousreply 34December 13, 2018 6:58 PM

I remember, it was when the Libyans were the terrorists to fear.

by Anonymousreply 35December 13, 2018 6:59 PM

The forensic investigation by the FBI and the UK authorities was incredible. They were able to locate and arrest the person responsible by piecing together the cassette player and finding where it was bought. Amazing there was enough of it left to do that AND that they could find the pieces amongst all the other wreckage of the plane and the destroyed houses. The main fuselage left a gigantic crater with no recognizeable debris, FFS.

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by Anonymousreply 36December 13, 2018 7:11 PM

Of course we remember Lockerbie. Many DLers also remember the Alamo.

by Anonymousreply 37December 13, 2018 7:29 PM

It seems unfathomable that there could be enough explosives in a cassette player to bring down a plane... was it in the luggage compartment?

by Anonymousreply 38December 13, 2018 7:43 PM

The bomb made a little hole. The air pressure at cruise level did the rest.

by Anonymousreply 39December 13, 2018 7:48 PM

[quote]Didn't Pan Am go bankrupt because of this? They were also sued by every family who lost someone and I think the litigation drove them into bankruptcy.

Pan Am was already on its last leg by this time. They had sold their Pacific routes to United in 1985 and after Lockerbie they sold their Heathrow routes to United, as well.

by Anonymousreply 40December 13, 2018 8:37 PM

ANY COMMENTER HERE , WITH A SMARMY COMMENT.

by Anonymousreply 41December 13, 2018 8:38 PM

There's a section in Bret Easton Ellis's Glamorama which seems very heavily Lockerbie influenced. It's told from the PoV of those inside the aircraft and it's both a horrible read and an example of some very good writing.

I was a kid in London at the time of Lockerbie. Unfortunately we were used to bombs back then.

by Anonymousreply 42December 13, 2018 8:49 PM

Discussion of the Lockerbie residents who died:

13 Sherwood Crescent was completely destroyed, and its occupants, Dora and Maurice Henry, were killed. Their bodies were never found. Several other houses and their foundations were destroyed, and 21 others were damaged so badly they had to be demolished.

Four members of one family, Jack and Rosalind Somerville and their children Paul (13), and Lyndsey (10), died when their house at 15 Sherwood Crescent exploded. The bodies of the two children were never found.

Kathleen Flannigan (41), her husband Thomas (44), and their daughter Joanne (10), were killed by the explosion in their house at 16 Sherwood Crescent. The bodies of Mr and Mrs Flannigan were never found. Their son Steven (14) witnessed a fireball engulfing his home from a neighbour's garage, where he had been repairing his sister's bicycle. Their other son, 19-year-old David, was in Blackpool at the time. David later turned to alcohol and drugs, and died from heart failure in Thailand in December 1993, aged 24. Steven died in August 2000, aged 26, after being hit by a train in Wiltshire.

The other Lockerbie residents who died were 81-year-old Mary Lancaster and 82-year-old Jean Murray, who also both lived in Sherwood Crescent. Both widows, they were the two oldest victims of the disaster.

by Anonymousreply 43December 13, 2018 8:52 PM

Very good article here. You can just hear the guy's accent.

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by Anonymousreply 44December 13, 2018 8:55 PM

r38 no it was in cargo hold, under the passenger compartment. The victim I am familiar with and mentioned upthread was believed to be sitting directly over it; she is the only passenger on the plane who's body was not recovered, and who's remains were never found on the ground.

by Anonymousreply 45December 13, 2018 8:58 PM

Was in high school. One of my English teachers had a daughter who went to Syracuse and was supposed to be flying back on that flight. The teacher and her husband decided to fly to England for Christmas so told her to remain in London where they would join her. I remember hearing about this and asking her if her daughter was okay. She said her daughter was distraught as many of her friends were on the plane and she felt guilty she was not.

by Anonymousreply 46December 13, 2018 8:59 PM

Depressing thread. Thanks a lot.

by Anonymousreply 47December 13, 2018 9:07 PM

Should edit to say at r45, "she is one of the passengers on the plane who's body was not recovered". There were several other passengers who also remained unfound.

by Anonymousreply 48December 13, 2018 9:08 PM

The Roches have a great song called Maid of the Seas, written about a friend who died at Lockerbie.

by Anonymousreply 49December 13, 2018 9:08 PM

What’s I cannot get my head around is why our government gave the murdering scumbag compassionate release at the end of his life?! It should have been spent locked up in a cell, not back in his home country with his family around him. Disgraceful.

by Anonymousreply 50December 13, 2018 9:27 PM

My good friend's father was the head pilot. Never ever the same.

by Anonymousreply 51December 13, 2018 9:33 PM

Fucking Muslims.

by Anonymousreply 52December 13, 2018 9:41 PM

It sounds like everyone on that plane was linked to a DLer.

by Anonymousreply 53December 13, 2018 10:07 PM

As with any disaster/attack/terrorism/etc airliners seem to be the most woeful to me. not just because flying is my biggest fear and a necessary evil but also the fact of having no control at such extremes while seeming safe and sound is unsettling. I have only heard of this particular one once maybe but never looked it up until now. just awful ;(

by Anonymousreply 54December 13, 2018 10:14 PM

R50, that burn me up and the fucker didn't die for years. He should've been thrown in a ditch while still alive, not released on compassionate grounds. Disgraceful is right.

by Anonymousreply 55December 13, 2018 10:16 PM

[quote]Twelve years after Pan Am 103 fell on Lockerbie, Libyan intelligence agent Abdelbaset al-Megrahi was convicted of mass murder.

The trial took place in a Scottish court specially set up at Camp Zeist in The Netherlands.

He was sentenced in 2001 to 27 years in a Scottish prison but was released on compassionate grounds eight years later after being diagnosed with terminal prostate cancer.

So... if Megrahi was either not acting alone, or not even responsible, who did it? The article suggests there's a case to be made for both scenarios.

by Anonymousreply 56December 13, 2018 10:23 PM

It was pretty evident he was made to take the blame which was why he was then released on compassionate grounds, as he wasn't the person who deserved to be in prison.

by Anonymousreply 57December 13, 2018 10:26 PM

[quote]My good friend's father was the head pilot. Never ever the same.

Um, yes.... I can imagine the explosion and impact on the ground left him somewhat transformed, to say the least.

by Anonymousreply 58December 13, 2018 10:40 PM

Didn't the release have something to do with Tony Blair and something shady?

by Anonymousreply 59December 13, 2018 10:42 PM

[quote] Tony Blair and something shady

That's a tautological statement.

by Anonymousreply 60December 13, 2018 10:50 PM

Prince Andrew was somehow involved in the release as well...

by Anonymousreply 61December 13, 2018 10:53 PM

I might be totally misremembering but I think his release was tied to some shady oil deal.

by Anonymousreply 62December 13, 2018 10:58 PM

So truly horrifying.

by Anonymousreply 63December 13, 2018 11:06 PM

sorry but to those posters who keep saying victim families never fully recovered - how exactly?

by Anonymousreply 64December 13, 2018 11:18 PM

It’s odd how many personal connections there are here on the DL. I went to college with two of the victims - one I knew quite well, the other not at all.

by Anonymousreply 65December 13, 2018 11:46 PM

The guy who was convicted and released early is thought by many to have been a patsy. I don't want this thread to wander off into into the dark hole of the many, many conspiracy theories about the case but there used to be a decent summation of them at the Wikipedia article. Some of them have legs.

by Anonymousreply 66December 14, 2018 12:02 AM

RIP Mark Tobin

by Anonymousreply 67December 14, 2018 12:29 AM

[quote]One of the most heart wrenching things I read was that these simple people used their finest linens to shroud the dead, as a show of respect and love. I wonder if I would have thought to do something so selfless, in the face of such horror.

Sweetheart, while the idea of broken bodies strewn all over my flowering Boxwood hedges (imported from the UK!) is distinctly unappealing, my Frette sateen sheets are 400-count. Imported. Hand-embroidered. And hand-ironed.

That's what venetian blinds are for--pulling shut. I would call Paco and all his "cousins" the next day to clean up the mess and be done with it.

Why throw away gorgeous Frette sheets after such an epic loss? I mean, honestly.

by Anonymousreply 68December 14, 2018 2:01 AM

R68, You are an asshole on several levels.

by Anonymousreply 69December 14, 2018 2:05 AM

R68, I totally get your attempt at humor but it was totally misguided in this thread. Totally misguided.

by Anonymousreply 70December 14, 2018 2:41 AM

I originally posted about the linens. I don’t think R68 meant any harm.

by Anonymousreply 71December 14, 2018 4:35 AM

R70"Sometimes crying or laughing are the only options left, and laughing feels better right now.”

by Anonymousreply 72December 14, 2018 9:20 AM

r52 it was Muslim extremists. Blaming all Muslims for it is like blaming all Catholics for pedophile preists

by Anonymousreply 73December 14, 2018 11:00 AM

I remember the incorrect report that Holly Johnson of Frankie Goes To Hollywood died in this crash.

by Anonymousreply 74December 14, 2018 11:11 AM

I went to Europe with my brother at the time and I was just 18 that time. We took that same route on Pan Am just a week before flying back to the US . We were shaken up.

by Anonymousreply 75December 14, 2018 11:36 AM

Threads like this is why I love DL. I teared up from some of the replies. I'm 31 so I obviously don't remember the accident, but reading about it is horrifying.

by Anonymousreply 76December 14, 2018 12:02 PM

It wasn’t an accident it was a terrorist attack.

by Anonymousreply 77December 14, 2018 12:03 PM

“it was Muslim extremists. Blaming all Muslims for it is like blaming all Catholics for pedophile preists”

Neither group should be proud of belonging to their particular club. The Catholic ideology, male supremacy and its power hierarchy have everything to do with the epidemic of child rapes within the church just like Islam’s ideology, male supremacy and its power hierarchy have everything to do with extremists’ acts of violence.

by Anonymousreply 78December 14, 2018 12:36 PM

[post redacted because linking to dailymail.co.uk clearly indicates that the poster is either a troll or an idiot (probably both, honestly.) Our advice is that you just ignore this poster but whatever you do, don't click on any link to this putrid rag.]

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by Anonymousreply 79December 15, 2018 3:30 PM

I've seen pictures of the bodies. Horrific.

by Anonymousreply 80December 15, 2018 4:26 PM

@FBI

30 years ago, on 12/21/1988, #PanAm103 was blown out of the sky by a terrorist bomb. On board were citizens of 21 countries, including 189 Americans, & on the ground, 11 residents of #Lockerbie were killed. The FBI has not forgotten.

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by Anonymousreply 81December 15, 2018 7:27 PM

Are you trying to insult my intelligence or just my memory?

I remember that painful loss as it were just yesterday. She was a real beauty & I even dated her for awhile.

She loved my "chair speech" & even encouraged me to do it. I resent this entire God damn thread.

by Anonymousreply 82December 15, 2018 7:37 PM

R82: wrong thread, but perfect, lol.

by Anonymousreply 83December 15, 2018 9:30 PM

R82 R83 OP here-thread uploaded so as to stir the minds of those too young to remember this. Too often of late we see people forgetting the past and the past has much to teach us.

by Anonymousreply 84December 16, 2018 1:19 PM

R84, thank you.

by Anonymousreply 85December 16, 2018 1:55 PM

Another site with the story:

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by Anonymousreply 86December 16, 2018 2:33 PM

How many Americans know the Lockerbie incident was a response to the USA shooting down Iran Air 655 near the Strait of Hormuz killing about 280 passengers?

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by Anonymousreply 87December 16, 2018 3:29 PM

R87 Indeed. And the US refused for many years to offer an official apology to Iran for that, and several more years before compensation was paid to the families of the Iranian victims

by Anonymousreply 88December 16, 2018 4:40 PM

I think this is why people don't remember r89 -- we aren't supposed to.

by Anonymousreply 89December 16, 2018 5:18 PM

The BernieBros were pro-Gaddafi. Amazing.

by Anonymousreply 90December 16, 2018 5:20 PM

For Brit DLers:

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by Anonymousreply 91December 17, 2018 3:12 AM

R3, the little girl in the red dress is mentioned in the story at R79.

by Anonymousreply 92December 19, 2018 4:59 AM

David White, who played Larry Tate on Bewitched, lost his only child, Jonathan, in the Lockerbie killings.

David died a little over a year later.

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by Anonymousreply 93December 19, 2018 5:00 AM

I was horrified and touched by the Lockerbie citizens' accounts.

One who found a man, strapped to his seat, in a tree still alive, who died soon after.

Another had her son go out and cover up "a young laddie" who had landed in front of her house. She kept asking the authorities when they were going to tend to "my boy." She remembered what he was wearing and had given her son a good blanket to cover him with because she thought he was still alive.

by Anonymousreply 94December 19, 2018 5:23 AM

I remember it only too well. I was flying from England later that day and back then, without the Internet etc.. we didn’t know a thing about it until we saw the front page of the papers we were supposed to distribute. After seeing the pictures, we didn’t pass them out.

by Anonymousreply 95December 19, 2018 5:30 AM

R93- I never knew that. I googled him and he did have another child. His story is very sad, his wife died during her second pregnancy, I assume the child died as well. They said he was a shell of his former self after his son died, so no surprise he died of a massive heart attack soon after.

by Anonymousreply 96December 19, 2018 8:24 AM

I was the poster who was 17 at the time who took the same route, and who took Pan Am with my Brother going back to the states just a week before the crash so we could have been on that plan.

Anyway, When we got back from our trip, I was kind of in a funk because we were having a blast in Europe and I didn't want to come back and go back to school. Also, I was in a funk thinking about that airplane bombing and I remember how shocked I was at the time thinking, that could have been us. I was watching the coverage and they posted up one of the victims who was on board heading back to San Francisco. I think the guy worked in the exploratorium. I got the vibe he was gay. He was stunningly handsome! I was mesmerized by his picture because he looked very much like that super Greek god, Tyrone Power. I was thinking at the time how heart broken I was for this stud pictured right in front of me, gone! I know I didn't know the man, but it was such a loss. I tired to see If I could find his picture online and I couldn't find it.

BTW, the actor who played Larry Tate, his son was a stud! WOW! he was so handsome! What a sad waste.

by Anonymousreply 97December 20, 2018 10:44 AM

30 years today (21/12/1988). 270 people killed, including 11 on the ground. Islamic terrorism, of course.

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by Anonymousreply 98December 21, 2018 11:00 AM

One of the convicted masterminds was released from prison on 2009 on humanitarian grounds. He had prostate cancer. He was given a hero's welcome in Tripoli on his return. This is what we are dealing with.

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by Anonymousreply 99December 21, 2018 12:47 PM

This was sad. I was in high school and on drugs when it happened so it’s fuzzy. I did *not* know the US shot down a plan too. Sick fucking world we live in.

by Anonymousreply 100December 21, 2018 6:20 PM

r99 what you are dealing with is the corporate 1%. The Anglo/American oil interests delayed the investigation for *years*. He allowed their oil concessions to run basically unmolested. Without them, Qaddafi would not have held power. The head of his security detail was a notorious Saffer mercenary, and there were many Brits in his inner circle as well. When he was no longer useful, they let him go. There was a doc not long ago that claimed they were given the orders to drive him along a certain route, and expect an ambush.

He sponsored terrorism for many years and Americans really didn't give a shit--same with the British. The only one they really seemed to give a shit about was Imid Mughniyah, on revenge grounds alone.

by Anonymousreply 101December 21, 2018 7:33 PM

There is a special on right now about it on the Smithsonian channel.

by Anonymousreply 102December 22, 2018 2:04 AM
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