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The idea that a person's sex is determined by their anatomy at birth is not true

and we've known that it's not true for decades

Anatomy Does Not Determine Gender, Experts Say

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 65October 23, 2018 11:54 PM

Fuck off.

by Anonymousreply 1October 23, 2018 1:55 PM

OP was wanking in the loo during biology.

by Anonymousreply 2October 23, 2018 1:57 PM

I really don't get how someone can feel that they aren't in the "right" body. Your body is your body, how can it be wrong? That being said, I really feel for those that suffer from such an internal conflict and I support whatever they need to bring them peace.

by Anonymousreply 3October 23, 2018 1:58 PM

[quote]The idea that a person's sex is determined by their anatomy at birth is not true

I don't agree with this statement the way it stands as out anatomy includes are brains and hormones.I might agree to the following statement:

A small minority of people seem to be wired to be the opposite sex of their anatomical presentation. The causes are not understood but it appears to be a congenital and a genuine phenomena .

by Anonymousreply 4October 23, 2018 2:00 PM

Amazing. The surgeries are what is unsettling to me. The pain and all the meds. I would think opiates would need to be involved if they chop a penis off and build a vagina. A lot of pills. Pain Management. Hospitals Doctors Visits Follow ups etc. That is the terrifying part to me. Once your in the system and all those meds does if ever end? A life of going to the Doctors.

by Anonymousreply 5October 23, 2018 2:09 PM

[quote]And the stupidity.

Some things in life just can't be changed. You can mutilate your body but it doesn't make you the opposite sex. Just makes you a mess.

by Anonymousreply 6October 23, 2018 2:20 PM

[quote]You can mutilate your body but it doesn't make you the opposite sex. Just makes you a mess.

While medical practitioners, pharma companies and the media rake in the money.

by Anonymousreply 7October 23, 2018 2:24 PM

boring troll

by Anonymousreply 8October 23, 2018 2:25 PM

1/20 for the time you spent typing this mess OP.

by Anonymousreply 9October 23, 2018 2:26 PM

XX and XY combination chromosomes determine your sex idiot.

by Anonymousreply 10October 23, 2018 2:28 PM

I hadn't considered that before, r5. The desire to surgically excise and/or grossly mutilate an otherwise healthy body is itself anathema to nature, but I had figured transexualism is on par with the body dismorphic disorder that causes a small minority of otherwise perfectly healthy people to want to amputate an arm or have their spine paralyzed because their brain, for reasons unknown, rejects the limb(s) as foreign and offensive. The vast majority of surgeons refuse to amputate healthy limbs or sever spinal cords for ethical reasons (first, do no harm) but really if they did perform those procedures, the surgeries do actually work to resolve the patient's distress in one go.

SRS surgeries are currently widely accepted and even championed, yet they *do* require a lifetime of dependency on powerful synthetic hormones, further surgeries, and yes, one must assume a fair amount of painkillers. Furthermore, SRS does *not* resolve the patient's distress in one go (and in many cases they become more distressed post-op, which is why Johns Hopkins no longer performs them).

by Anonymousreply 11October 23, 2018 2:29 PM

For all you transphobic posters, the OP did not post some whacko medical journal’s article. This appeared in The NY Times. Maybe you should listen to some experts as open your minds.

by Anonymousreply 12October 23, 2018 2:33 PM

[quote]Furthermore, SRS does *not* resolve the patient's distress in one go (and in many cases they become more distressed post-op, which is why Johns Hopkins no longer performs them).

Well-said r11. In the future medical science will lump SRS procedures with lobotomies: surgical failures. An experiment that didn't work.

by Anonymousreply 13October 23, 2018 2:34 PM

[quote]This appeared in The NY Times. Maybe you should listen to some experts as open your minds.

R12 Maybe you should realize that both the NYT and the "experts" are driven by agenda.

by Anonymousreply 14October 23, 2018 2:37 PM

Thank you r11. My Mom had Rheumatoid Soriatic and Osteo Arthritis. Knee Replacements and on and on. Loratabs were her pain meds. Going to Doctors and Hospitals and pills for life are no way to live.

by Anonymousreply 15October 23, 2018 2:38 PM

This article doesn't even make sense on its own terms. Its concluding sentence is "Of all the information on gender identity, he said that to medical experts, the studies on those cases provide the strongest evidence that gender identity has deep biological roots."

So, there is no such thing as anatomical sex which is determined by biology, but "gender identity" is determined by biology? This is nonsense and simply junk science thrown together for political/ideological purposes to argue against Trump's effort to define gender according to anatomy and to have "gender identity" instead protected in law as an immutable condition.

Does the fact of having a male body or a female body really mean nothing? If so, then scientists and academics ought to study it rather than ignore it, since the body that we have is one of the most - if not the most - decisive factors in who we are as a person.

Again, we return to the same issues that are never satisfactorily addressed by the trans activists: biological males to participate in women's sports? People with penises in women's bathrooms? Lesbians should be open to sleeping with "women with penises" otherwise they are transphobic?

by Anonymousreply 16October 23, 2018 2:46 PM

Is that why people look for balls on a puppy or kitten before coming up with a gender-appropriate name?

by Anonymousreply 17October 23, 2018 2:47 PM

[quote] I really don't get how someone can feel that they aren't in the "right" body.

You’re supposed to be straight. It makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. But you don’t feel heterosexual. You want to put your dick in someone’s poop shoot or have them put theirs in yours. Get it? It’s a feeling. It’s biologically off.

by Anonymousreply 18October 23, 2018 3:01 PM

[quote] [R12] Maybe you should realize that both the NYT and the "experts" are driven by agenda.

You sound like climate change deniers.

by Anonymousreply 19October 23, 2018 3:03 PM

[quote] Amazing. The surgeries are what is unsettling to me. The pain and all the meds. I would think opiates would need to be involved if they chop a penis off and build a vagina. A lot of pills.

Why would you care and you’re admitting that you don’t even know what’s involved. You’re an idiot. You sound white.

by Anonymousreply 20October 23, 2018 3:04 PM

The NY Times does not have any agenda except to report the truth (and provide excellent theater coverage).

by Anonymousreply 21October 23, 2018 3:05 PM

That's a completely different situation, r18. Your body is you, your body literally exists before you as an "identity" do. Who you have sex with doesn't change what your body is. Are you suggesting that we we all pretend that we're ethereal spirits not bound by any corporeality? When you desire someone does the physical body not play any role for you?

Another false analogy, r19. The more correct comparison would be that trans are more like climate change deniers, trying to deny the physical reality of the environment.

by Anonymousreply 22October 23, 2018 3:06 PM

[quote]The NY Times does not have any agenda except to report the truth

LOL. You've apparently missed their coverage of Trump and his supporters since 2016. They're all hardworking, decent, diner-eating folk, and he never LIES, just uses 'demonstrable falsehoods'.

The Times has become a fucking joke...with an agenda.

by Anonymousreply 23October 23, 2018 3:13 PM

R21 the article is not about truth. It is totally the opinion of Dr. Safer, head of Transgender Medicine at Mt Sinai!

by Anonymousreply 24October 23, 2018 3:16 PM

R20 I am a Human Being trying to understand why someone would Choose to be cut on and live a life taking pills. " You sound White" Really? Your funny as hell. I will be in New Orleans next weekend let's grab drinks.

by Anonymousreply 25October 23, 2018 3:24 PM

Are humans the only animals who have problems with gender?

by Anonymousreply 26October 23, 2018 3:29 PM

[quote] That's a completely different situation, [R18]. Your body is you, your body literally exists before you as an "identity" do. Who you have sex with doesn't change what your body is. Are you suggesting that we we all pretend that we're ethereal spirits not bound by any corporeality? When you desire someone does the physical body not play any role for you?

Gay people believe that they can’t help being gay. That they didn’t choose to be gay. The same goes for the transgender. Both are not the norm and are based on feeling and observation. They’re exactly the same thing. I know it hurts to hear this. Tough shit.

by Anonymousreply 27October 23, 2018 3:36 PM

[quote]You’re an idiot. You sound white

Another Lipstick Alley cunt exposes her racist self.

by Anonymousreply 28October 23, 2018 3:56 PM

[quote]I really don't get how someone can feel that they aren't in the "right" body. Your body is your body, how can it be wrong?

Imagine if we told paraplegics, amputees, or people with congenital deformities that they were in the “wrong” body. Why are we assigning a moral value to our physical bodies? Isn’t this just another form of passive discrimination? Think of the past regimes that have designated people as “defective” due to their sex, race, skin color, etc. I will never understand why the left has seemingly embraced such an absurd position.

[quote]A small minority of people seem to be wired to be the opposite sex of their anatomical presentation. The causes are not understood but it appears to be a congenital and a genuine phenomena.

Well that cannot be the opposite sex, so the problem lies in the thinking. At the root of much of this are plain old, garden variety anxiety disorders like OCD. The idea of presenting as or changing oneself to the opposite sex becomes a fixation, much like the anorexic fixates on their weight or people with body dismorphia are obsessed with self-determined flaws in their appearance.

We treat the mind to accept the body, not change the body to relieve the mind. When we did that in the past, it was called a lobotomy. This is a return to the dark ages of mental health treatment.

by Anonymousreply 29October 23, 2018 3:59 PM

[quote]Gay people believe that they didn’t choose to be gay. The same goes for the transgender. Both are not the norm and are based on feeling and observation. They’re exactly the same thing. I know it hurts to hear this.

No - it doesn't hurt to hear this all all. I accept that both homosexuals and trans identifying people are aberrations. The are both small minorities of the biological norm.

But being a homosexual doesn't motivate me to mutilate my body. I have learned to live with my sexuality in the confines of a society that often disdains me. However some trans people people insist on radical surgery to try to "correct the situation."

Is this right or wrong? In my opinion it is VERY misguided to remove one's reproductive organs and make other radical surgical changes to one's body. IMO the ends definitely don't justify the means. I agree with r13 that trans surgery is failed surgery.

by Anonymousreply 30October 23, 2018 4:05 PM

R21. Turning a profit is the most important agenda for the NYT.

by Anonymousreply 31October 23, 2018 4:08 PM

[quote]But being a homosexual doesn't motivate me to mutilate my body

EXACTLY!

by Anonymousreply 32October 23, 2018 4:09 PM

Hate and confusion. Unfortunately here they are not necessarily linked, and the hate just proceeds from hate, or its face with a gutless intent.

by Anonymousreply 33October 23, 2018 4:12 PM

Sex isn't binary and our genes are not the only factor in our sexual makeup.

Here's Stanford medicine and a 2015 article (pre trump, pre NYT article) that speaks to this issue.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 34October 23, 2018 4:12 PM

Another science denier!

by Anonymousreply 35October 23, 2018 4:16 PM

Yeah

by Anonymousreply 36October 23, 2018 5:05 PM

[quote]No - it doesn't hurt to hear this all all. I accept that both homosexuals and trans identifying people are aberrations. The are both small minorities of the biological norm.

Homosexual behavior has been observed in hundreds of species, including all primates. To my knowledge transgender behavior has only occurred in a small fraction of the human population. I don't even know what it would look like in animals--would they attempt to chew off their own genitalia or mammary glands? Such behavior would not benefit either the individual (who'd either sterilize himself and remove himself from the gene pool, or just bleed to death), or the greater community. There is no evolutionary advantage.

Homosexual behavior, by contrast, is thought to have benefits to a community, like strengthening interpersonsl bonds to help keep the peace between males, or increase cooperation between females in communal child rearing, or to placate male urges for sex when there aren't enough females to go around, or as a natural birth control when there's overpopulation, or that gay males can be very helpful in raising and protecting young. Which may be why it's relatively common across all cultures and populations, and why the overall percentage of gays hasn't changed despite an entire generation of gays decimated by AIDS in the 1980s.

All efforts to equate homosexuality with transgenderism are disingenuous and cannot be supported by facts or reason.

If your way of life could not or does not exist in nature, it is unnatural. Homosexuality exists in nature the world over. Transgenderism exists only in the form of mental illness in a tiny percentage of humans. And you cannot fix mental problems from the outside in. They must be addressed through therapy.

by Anonymousreply 37October 23, 2018 5:05 PM

R27, here is the bio proof you need that gay men are gay men:

Our dicks get by men.

Women do not make our dicks erect.

Sorry, it’s nothing personal. But my plumbing responds to MEN. My educated guess is that lesbians are turned on by women and not men.

So if T is like homosexuality, what is the bio evidence that proves it ? Other than “just a feeling.”

by Anonymousreply 38October 23, 2018 5:08 PM

Sorry that should say:

Our dicks get hard by other men.

I have an undeniable physical reaction from hot dudes that I do not get from hot chicks.

by Anonymousreply 39October 23, 2018 5:09 PM

You mean the "aluminum tubes" New York Times?

by Anonymousreply 40October 23, 2018 5:16 PM

The existence of intersex conditions only reinforces the fact that the human sexes are a binary when you realize that every single intersex disorder is tied to a particular sex (e.g. Trisomy X, Klinefelter, etc). "But what about XXY? X0? XXXY? Gotcha cis scum" is like saying that because some people are born with extra or missing fingers and toes that our hands and feet exist on a "spectrum".

"Transgender brain" is also a myth. Careful reviewing shows that only "heterosexual transgender people" (transgender-identified gay people) exhibit a particular brain morphology. How funny that, in their effort to garner legitimacy through neuroscience, they have only managed to provide even more evidence for the innate nature of homosexuality.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 41October 23, 2018 5:19 PM

[quote]All efforts to equate homosexuality with transgenderism are disingenuous and cannot be supported by facts or reason.

Totally disagree r37 - Homosexuality and trans are both aberrations from the biological norm. The fact that homosexuality is found in other species - and that you state "homosexuality may offer benefits to the community" doesn't alter this fact.

Homosexuality and trans may - or may not - have other similarities. Bt both are dissimilar from the biological norm - and both are small minorities.

by Anonymousreply 42October 23, 2018 5:32 PM

How is trans biological, r42?

by Anonymousreply 43October 23, 2018 5:43 PM

Maybe my terminology isn't precise. But if a person is born as a transsexual they deviate from the biological norm.

by Anonymousreply 44October 23, 2018 5:46 PM

Are you saying gays and trans are aberrations, r42?

by Anonymousreply 45October 23, 2018 5:56 PM

Either we have a lot of Russian trolls on this thread or a lot of folks doing their work for them.

by Anonymousreply 46October 23, 2018 6:08 PM

Yes r45 I am saying that gays and trans are aberrations are aberration from the norm.

The norm is heterosexuality. And the norm is a persons gender identification agree with their biological presentation.

by Anonymousreply 47October 23, 2018 6:12 PM

R42 Do gay people share special kinship with all of earth's other "biological aberrations"? Why stop at trans? How about psychopaths, people with a fetish for feet, pedophiles, vegans, people with two heads, people who wear glasses...

by Anonymousreply 48October 23, 2018 6:12 PM

Sorry, r48 I was talking about gays and trans being aberrations from the norm.

You are talking about other thing.

by Anonymousreply 49October 23, 2018 6:16 PM

If y'all want to see everything we are talking about. Halloween and Voodoo Fest New Orleans this weekend and then Dia Dr Los Meurtos.

by Anonymousreply 50October 23, 2018 6:32 PM

Thanks, r47.

What are “gender norms”...?

Maybe I’m transgender & don’t even know it. I need to see the list of genders norms.

If I am, does this mean I need to take cross-hormones & my penis removed? Or can I keep my body intact & still be trans?

by Anonymousreply 51October 23, 2018 6:41 PM

r51 - you should Google Transgender. Lots of good info online.

by Anonymousreply 52October 23, 2018 6:48 PM

R49 No, YOU are the one talking about "other thing", making wild homophobic assertions and drawing unsubstantiated parallels.

Begone, troll.

by Anonymousreply 53October 23, 2018 7:54 PM

As a gay man, I don’t know what goes on inside the mind of someone who self-identifies as transsexual. But I believe their stories because who the hell am I to know what their experience is like? They should be protected by laws to ensure their safety and freedoms as much as everyone else. I’ve met transsexual people and I don’t have a problem with swapping gender pronouns if that’s what makes them comfortable. Individually I have no problems with any of it.

My problem comes from making biological conclusions of what is really more of a cultural issue. Who is to say that a man can’t behave culturally as a woman and still be considered a man? It strikes me as something that pivots on our Western cultural definitions of ‘man’ and ‘woman’. Transgenderism seems to only be definined by its contrast to the perceived behaviour and outward appearances of gender. That to me is not biological. If someone has a penis, they can behave any way they like, as far as I’m concerned, and still be a man, no matter how far removed from the norm. And conversely for women in the same situation. If someone has a problem with that, fuck ‘em.

The defence of Transgenderism is based on psychological perception, not biological rejection. I think there is a simpler and easier and healthier way to deal with it by expanding our definitions and expectations of what it means to be a man or a woman, rather than hypothesising alternative biological genders and their accompanying traumas. But that’s just me.

by Anonymousreply 54October 23, 2018 8:44 PM

Totally agree, r54, an excellent summary of the matter.

by Anonymousreply 55October 23, 2018 8:54 PM

Thanks, r52. I did and here is what I found:

[quote]A gender role, also known as a sex role, is a social role encompassing a range of behaviors and attitudes that are generally considered acceptable, appropriate, or desirable for people based on their actual or perceived sex or sexuality. Wikipedia

And from Planned Parenthood:

[quote]What are gender roles?

[quote]Gender roles in society means how we’re expected to act, speak, dress, groom, and conduct ourselves based upon our assigned sex. For example, girls and women are generally expected to dress in typically feminine ways and be polite, accommodating, and nurturing. Men are generally expected to be strong, aggressive, and bold.

[quote]Every society, ethnic group, and culture has gender role expectations, but they can be very different from group to group. They can also change in the same society over time. For example, pink used to be considered a masculine color in the U.S. while blue was considered feminine.

[quote]Extreme gender stereotypes are harmful because they don’t allow people to fully express themselves and their emotions. For example, it’s harmful to masculine folks to feel that they’re not allowed to cry or express sensitive emotions. And it’s harmful to feminine folks to feel that they’re not allowed to be independent, smart or assertive. Breaking down gender stereotypes allows everyone to be their best selves.

I’m sorry but I’m confused. Why would people undergo physical surgery to change “gender”...it’s just sex roles.

Wouldn’t it be healthier and more reasonable to change society’s expectations of how males and females should act...?

by Anonymousreply 56October 23, 2018 9:02 PM

Who is to say that a man can’t behave culturally as a woman and still be considered a man?.. they can behave any way they like, no matter how far removed from the norm.

Totally agree r54 - one of the great things about being gay is labels can be put on and taken off like hats. "I happen to be a man but I'm wearing a dress." Is a good example. IMO we are who we say we are. It every one's personal choice.

And like you I don't understand how a transsexual thinks but it must be a deep yearning to motivate someone to undergo such radical surgeries. Bruce Jenner is a good example. Although he is not much loved on DL, Jenner had a very good life pre transition: iIt was comfortable and he had a nice niche as a former Olympic champion. Now he's laughing stock for many - not accepted by straights or gays. He gave up a lot to transition. The yearning and desire to be the person he wanted to be much have been very very deep.

by Anonymousreply 57October 23, 2018 10:54 PM

[quote]yearning and desire

More like mental illness & sex fetish must have been very very deep.

Remember: he wore his daughter’s underwear. Snuck into her room.

And he is is still an LGBTQ “spokesman”...perhaps not officially, but he is THE most famous trans on the planet.

by Anonymousreply 58October 23, 2018 11:11 PM

Does Caitlyn Jenner, currently, have a penis?

by Anonymousreply 59October 23, 2018 11:18 PM

he says he had the surgery but I doubt it, I think he's fucking Sophia Hutchins.

by Anonymousreply 60October 23, 2018 11:34 PM

I think Sophia is fucking him.

Bruce isn’t gay...it’s normal for a woman to get fucked with a penis.

But Bruce isn’t attracted to big, muscly men. He’s attracted to hot chicks!

Bruce is turned on by the idea of het sex. But he gets off on homosex.

Maybe that’s what they mean when they say they feel like women? They identify as straight, but ...oh fuck it. I give up. I can’t figure it out.

But it has something to do with disembodiement.

by Anonymousreply 61October 23, 2018 11:44 PM

[quote]The yearning and desire to be the person he wanted to be much have been very very deep.

Does this hold true for anorexics? Schizophrenics?

by Anonymousreply 62October 23, 2018 11:47 PM

Well - Caitlyn and Sophia have some sort of accommodation I'm sure. Sophia has had the surgery so if she's fucking Caitlyn it's with a strap on. Caitlyn has the big advantage of being super rich so he can call the shots.

by Anonymousreply 63October 23, 2018 11:49 PM

F&F R20

by Anonymousreply 64October 23, 2018 11:52 PM

I sound like a fag

by Anonymousreply 65October 23, 2018 11:54 PM
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