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How homosexuality became a crime in the Middle East

Colonialism, culture wars and fundamentalist politicians have restricted sexual freedom.

IN THE 13th and 14th centuries two celebrated male poets wrote about men in affectionate, even amorous, terms. They were Rumi and Hafiz, and both lived in what is now Iran. Their musings were neither new nor unusual. Centuries earlier Abu Nuwas, a bawdy poet from Baghdad, wrote lewd verses about same-sex desire. Such relative openness towards homosexual love used to be widespread in the Middle East. Khaled El-Rouayheb, an academic at Harvard University, explains that though sodomy was deemed a major sin by Muslim courts of law, other homosexual acts such as passionate kissing, fondling or lesbian sex were not. Homoerotic poetry was widely considered part of a “refined sensibility”, he says.

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by Anonymousreply 139November 4, 2018 12:21 PM

What about Colonialism?

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by Anonymousreply 1October 7, 2018 7:19 AM

It's hard to believe, but even ~50 years ago, cities like Kabul, Tehran, Cairo, and Damascus were SHOCKINGLY progressive about gay tolerance compared to the US. That's not to say their rural neighbors were equally-enlightened, but compared to the neurotic, McCarthian puritainism of 1940s & 1950s L.A. & NYC in the US, urban Iran was probably pretty awesome.

Abrahamic religions, especially fundamentalist sects -- are the scourge of enlightened society.

by Anonymousreply 2October 7, 2018 7:29 AM

The societies you laud were fucked up from the get-go, and colonialism had fuck-all to do with it.

by Anonymousreply 3October 7, 2018 8:08 AM

Sex between men is rampant in these places.

Save Istanbul GAY as an identity rarely exists.

by Anonymousreply 4October 7, 2018 8:35 AM

Colonialism has nothing to do with their views on homosex it has everything to do with religion and culture. Stop blaming the west .

by Anonymousreply 5October 7, 2018 8:46 AM

I don't see anything on relationships between women.

by Anonymousreply 6October 7, 2018 8:53 AM

R2 ive heard the same about these countries. Damascus was the party city for all the Arab countries. My own experience in one bears it out. They are more hedonist than puritanical when it comes to sex. The only thing homosexuality cannot and must not threaten is procreation and family.

by Anonymousreply 7October 7, 2018 9:29 AM

Athough the US does play a role in that it indirectly helped fuel homophobia in the Middle East not by spreading Christianity but by helping Islamic groups in the area during the cold war.

by Anonymousreply 8October 7, 2018 1:48 PM

It's so common to hear from men who have been to Egypt being constantly hit on by men. Are most Egyptian men bisexual perhaps?

by Anonymousreply 9October 9, 2018 2:04 PM

When our Navy cruiser visited Karachi in 1989, some of the younger, dishier boys made the error of wearing short pants ashore because of the humidity. The Pakistani yard workers made catcalls and lewd gestures to them...it was funny. But when we stood duty with their military police, they told us about a couple of British sailors who were jumped and gang raped the previous year by some of the workers. Many of them swore that it wasn’t about gay lifestyle, but they got more pleasure from a boy’s ass than vagina...women were for procreation only. I hated Karachi.

by Anonymousreply 10October 9, 2018 2:32 PM

Being Gay In Saudi Arabia - Advice

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by Anonymousreply 11October 20, 2018 5:53 AM

Turkey is probably the first country that decriminalized homosex. It's part of their male orientation macho culture. Men are allowed to have sex anyway they want without retribution.

Punishing gay sex became a thing because Islam is more radical today than under Atatürk. Also the extremist leaders in Saudi Arabia and Iran shaped the middle East with their religious fundamentalism.

by Anonymousreply 12October 20, 2018 6:49 AM

Men in those regions have ALL kinds of sex with other men, as long as they have a family there is no problem.

by Anonymousreply 13October 20, 2018 7:27 AM

But at the same time is people know two men had sex they may be accused and killed. The situation is contradictory and hard to make sense of.

by Anonymousreply 14October 20, 2018 7:31 AM

There are so many other factors - to blame it on colonialism is ridiculous.

by Anonymousreply 15October 20, 2018 7:31 AM

The term colonialism seems to imply only Europeans were colonizers. You should study more history. Persia had legal gay brothels as early as the 17th century it's very well documented. Fundamentalist Islam as with fundamentalist Christianity is what's brought these secular progressive states to shit.

Many of the most prominent Arabic philosophers and mathematicians were openly bissexual and reference same sex love.

by Anonymousreply 16October 20, 2018 7:42 AM

It's after midnight. I'm at a wedding party in a remote village in northern Afghanistan. There is no sign of the bride or groom, or any women, only men. Some of them are armed, some of them are taking drugs. Almost everyone's attention is focused on a 15-year-old boy. He's dancing for the crowd in a long and shiny woman's dress, his face covered by a red scarf. He is wearing fake breasts and bells around his ankles. Someone offers him some US dollars and he grabs them with his teeth.

This is an ancient tradition. People call it bachabaze which literally means "playing with boys". The most disturbing thing is what happens after the parties. Often the boys are taken to hotels and sexually abused. The men behind the practice are often wealthy and powerful. Some of them keep several bachas (boys) and use them as status symbols - a display of their riches. The boys, who can be as young as 12, are usually orphans or from very poor families.

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by Anonymousreply 17October 20, 2018 7:44 AM

That has nothing to do with homosexuality R17

by Anonymousreply 18October 20, 2018 7:48 AM

These cultures sound very confused about homosexuality in general. They sound like they like the same sex but can only have it if they pretend they are opposite sex. How weird.

by Anonymousreply 19October 20, 2018 8:06 AM

The West/colonialism/capitalism/Jews/whatever are not the cause of Muslim misfortune. Islam is. The posts on this thread are filled with fantasy, ignorance and simplistic nonsense. Homosexuality has always been and remains haram and socially abhorrent in Muslim society, decriminalized or not, and is the overriding reason why Muslim countries are at the forefront to block the advancement of gay rights in international forums.

by Anonymousreply 20October 20, 2018 8:09 AM

R19 not really.

The dancing boys are a specific thing. Men on men sex happens all the time every day with no pretense but they have to be STRAIGHT men having sex with STRAIGHT men. Gay is not allowed. It is a bit like Craigslist used to be.

by Anonymousreply 21October 20, 2018 8:11 AM

The US supported radical islamic groups in the Middle East during the cold war in order to discourage the Soviet Union from having an influence in the region. If the US hadn't done that the Middle East would probably be a better place today.

by Anonymousreply 22October 20, 2018 8:13 AM

Islam has been the greatest colonizer and brutally so in history. I love the muslim as perpetual innocent victim narrative yet islam is responsible for the death of 300 million people and the enslavement of tens of millions. It is all demanded by the islamic god with the mass murdering child rapist prophet.

OP, DLers are no fools when it comes to islam and its complete intolerance, we have to be.

by Anonymousreply 23October 20, 2018 8:56 AM

The influence Islam had in the region up until the 40's wasn't as big as it is today. It's all because of the US.

by Anonymousreply 24October 20, 2018 9:05 AM

Nonsense, R24

by Anonymousreply 25October 20, 2018 9:16 AM

Correct R24

by Anonymousreply 26October 20, 2018 9:25 AM

Give it up Vlad @ R22, the Soviet Union collapsed 30 years ago and you won't bring it back.

by Anonymousreply 27October 20, 2018 9:26 AM

R24 had never heard about the Umayyad and the Ottoman empires.

by Anonymousreply 28October 20, 2018 9:28 AM

R28 Or the 800 year Muslim occupation of Spain, or the 400 year Muslim occupation of India, or 700 years of repeated attempts of Muslim invasion and conquest of Eastern Europe.

by Anonymousreply 29October 20, 2018 9:37 AM

Apparently, some of you do't know about the cold war.

How the U.S. helped quash moderate secularism in the Middle East.

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by Anonymousreply 30October 20, 2018 9:37 AM

There are 10 countries where homosexuality is punishable by death and ALL of them are Muslim countries so yeah it makes sense to blame it all on white people.

by Anonymousreply 31October 20, 2018 9:40 AM

You know, in general people piss me off. Why can't people just stop fucking up? You have a country, any country, and all they need to do is provide decent healthcare and a good public education system. They need to have environmental policies that address the Climate Change crisis we're experiencing. They need solid economic policies which allow growth and job creation, with a decent minimum wage. They should require two years of public service in programs and projects for the good of the community. And the laws should be sensible laws that are on the books for the health and safety of all. That's it. All the pitting people against one another lying and smearing to win elections would have to stop. Leave people alone. Public safety should be the foundation for all civil law. Period. Abortion, Gay marriage, etc. racism, shouldn't be issues. Fair and sensible should rule. I'm tired of all this bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 32October 20, 2018 10:30 AM

R21. That is dishonest bullshit then. These men like men but they can't admit it. Therefore the culture is regressive.

by Anonymousreply 33October 20, 2018 11:54 AM

I worry about the Democratic Party in 25-50 years. Living in Michigan, most Muslims are Democrat, and how they are, I don’t know. Dearborn used to be heavily Republican, (which makes sense), before George Bush I and Desert Storm. I wonder if Democrats will shift ideologically in the years to come to support Islam the way Republicans have to support Christianity.

by Anonymousreply 34October 20, 2018 12:13 PM

The spread of Islam is a problem for gay people. No question about that. I'm scared of what's going to happen in England the more influential they become.

by Anonymousreply 35October 20, 2018 12:16 PM

r10, wow, that is both erotic and disturbing at the same time.

by Anonymousreply 36October 20, 2018 12:24 PM

I think a third party, like Independents, will rise out of voting necessity not out of voting preference. Independent of religion.

by Anonymousreply 37October 20, 2018 12:25 PM

[quote]Khaled El-Rouayheb, an academic at Harvard University, explains that though sodomy was deemed a major sin by Muslim courts of law

Even the restrictions towards anal sex were never followed closely. Poets and painters frequently portrayed homosexual anal sex in their art as something desirable, often preferable to vaginal sex.

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by Anonymousreply 38October 20, 2018 12:42 PM

Iranian painting:

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by Anonymousreply 39October 20, 2018 12:47 PM

Mughal:

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by Anonymousreply 40October 20, 2018 12:49 PM

All religions come down to a "do as I say not as I do" morality.

by Anonymousreply 41October 20, 2018 12:58 PM

What about the young boys they dressed as dancing girls and fucked at their all male parties?

by Anonymousreply 42October 20, 2018 12:58 PM

[quote]Even the restrictions towards anal sex were never followed closely. Poets and painters frequently portrayed homosexual anal sex in their art as something desirable, often preferable to vaginal sex.

As an addendum, anal sex between men was so common in the Muslim world, that Western travelers in North Africa and South Asia portrayed it in their missives as the Muslim sin par excellance.

Gustave Flaubert also wrote that Egyptian men openly admitted to taking part in sodomy:

[quote] For example, in a letter to his friend Louis Bouilhet dated 15 January 1850, Gustave Flaubert notes concerning male-male “sodomy”: “Here it is quite accepted [. . .] and it is spoken of at table in the hotel. Sometimes you do a bit of denying, and then everybody teases you and you end up confessing.”11

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by Anonymousreply 43October 20, 2018 1:05 PM

Are Muslims responsible for ANYTHING they do? I will never understand this bizarre infantilization of brown and black people by SJWs when it suits their cause du jour.

The dead kids in Yemen are the USA's fault as much as Saudi Arabia, you know because the colonizers forced the Saudis to buy the weapons and then held their hands on the triggers. The homophobia in Africa is the West's fault, you know because Christianity was forced on them by the colonizers. The oppression of gays and women in the Middle East is the West's fault because Israel and Reagan and God knows what else. The 1 million/2 million/10 million/500 million (the number constantly changes) dead in Iraq is the USA's fault because getting rid of Saddam let out the pent up rage in his people against one another and that rage is of course Israel's fault. The women getting raped in Europe by the "refugees" are at fault because the civil war in Syria is the colonizer's fault and it's also the women's fault because they are unfairly tempting the refugees by dressing like whores in public. How can they be expected to control themselves under those circumstances?

by Anonymousreply 44October 20, 2018 1:18 PM

If the evidence is clear that homosexuality was practiced frequently and openly in the Muslim world, and that it was French and British colonial laws that shamed it back in the closet, how is this not the fault of the West??

Is the West ever responsible for anything they do??

by Anonymousreply 45October 20, 2018 1:23 PM

R44 is both a drama queen and off topic.

We need to get out of the war business entirely. End the troops, stop making and selling weapons to anyone.

Back onto the buttsex please.

by Anonymousreply 46October 20, 2018 1:33 PM

So, what you’re saying is “less guns, more anal”, R46?

by Anonymousreply 47October 20, 2018 1:39 PM

R44 is correct

by Anonymousreply 48October 20, 2018 1:40 PM

Exactly r47

by Anonymousreply 49October 20, 2018 1:40 PM

"Less guns, more anal" is my personal mantra.

by Anonymousreply 50October 20, 2018 1:42 PM

How did the British make Muslims homophobic if it's in their religion???Explain to me I'm confused. Even if we believe it was accepted centuries ago.

by Anonymousreply 51October 20, 2018 1:44 PM

r51 nothing is ever the fault of brown people. Nothing. Everything bad about the poor dears is the result of white influence.

by Anonymousreply 52October 20, 2018 1:46 PM

In my corner of academia, postcolonialism is very en vogue.

I find it a bit ironic, to be honest. Everything is still compared to whiteness -- whiteness is still the yardstick by which all of humanity is judged -- it's just the judgements now extend in the other direction. Whites are always the worst, the most brutal colonizers, the most sociopathic slave owners, the most pernicious oppressors. Not only is it utterly ahistorical, but it continues to center whiteness.

by Anonymousreply 53October 20, 2018 1:51 PM

The ancient world did not really have a problem with homosexuality. It was with the rise of Abrahamic religions and their spreading that their prejudices against homosexualty spread across the world.

by Anonymousreply 54October 20, 2018 1:54 PM

[quote]How did the British make Muslims homophobic if it's in their religion???

You should benefit from reading some philosophy of law.

Just because a religious or legal norm exist, doesn't mean it's being applied or followed. Laws have no power to impose themselves because they're just a COLLECTION OF WORDS.

In order to have practical effect, the law must be interpreted by judges, sovereigns, ie, by flesh and blood people who can wield social and political power. Which doesn't always happen.

Sometimes, religious leaders simply neglect some parts of what their holy books say, or interpret them differently, which is why Islam (and Christianity for that matter) looks differently depending on which part of the world, or what period in history, you're talking about.

Throughout most of history, Islamic authorities have neglected what the Qur'an says about homosexuality. Even to these days, people in Afghanistan interpret their religion as ENDORSING homosexuality, because women are deemed impure, and men are not, thereby making sex with men be seen as cleaner.

It's also very possible that Muslims in the past didn't have much of an idea of what the Qur'an says about homosexuality, just like Christians today ignore many parts of the Bible.

In fact, there are also historical periods or periods in history where homosexuality was greatly frequent in Christian lands. This was particularly true in Southern Europe. In 15th century Florence, most men practiced a form of "pedagogical homosexuality", where a pupil moves in with the teacher and the two begin a relationship.

In fact, I read that it was relatively late in history that Christianity turned against homosexuality, though I don't remember precisely which century it was.

Even in some parts of the modern Christian world - for example, in some rural communities in Latin America - most men behave bisexually and make no secret about it, as the following study found:

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by Anonymousreply 55October 20, 2018 1:58 PM

In all cultures any deviant behavior is supposedly excused by the practitioners as a “refined sensibility”

by Anonymousreply 56October 20, 2018 2:05 PM

[quote]In all cultures any deviant behavior is supposedly excused by the practitioners as a “refined sensibility”

You're talking that out of your ass. Homosexuality was the norm in Muslim lands, and not a deviancy. Fathers would even counsel sons to take male lovers:

[quote]In 1082 Kai Ka’us Ibn Iskandar, a prince of Gorgan, in northeast Iran, advised his son under the section of the Qabus-nameh (sometimes translated as A Mirror for Princes) in a section entitled “On Taking One’s Pleasure”: “As between women and youths, do not confine your inclinations to either sex; thus you may find enjoyment from both kinds without either of the two becoming inimical to you”...

Homosexuality remained open in Iran until the days of the Islamic Revolution, in the late 20th century. Jerry Zarit, a gay man who lived in pre-Revolution Iran, described it as a "sexual paradise" for gay men and said that he could not conceive of a place where men would proposition one another more and openly and more frequently.

Even today, surveys show that some 20% of Iranian students describe themselves as homosexual, though they're probably more discrete than their fathers were in their young years.

by Anonymousreply 57October 20, 2018 2:15 PM

It must come for someone who is not homosexua

by Anonymousreply 58October 20, 2018 2:16 PM

It must come for someone who is not homosexua

by Anonymousreply 59October 20, 2018 2:16 PM

The CampaignIran Troll is back.

by Anonymousreply 60October 20, 2018 2:18 PM

r60 It's funny how I, the supposed troll, am the only one actually presenting evidence and data, whereas all you have is some vapid slogans about Islam being bad.

by Anonymousreply 61October 20, 2018 2:19 PM

R61 = Defender of the Ummah!

You post the same horseshit about homosexuality and Islam every time you're not embargoed. And no one buys it because, unlike you, they are not blind to the social and political nightmare that are Muslim societies. Khashoggi is only the latest example of what happens to transgressors going back to the 7th century.

by Anonymousreply 62October 20, 2018 2:25 PM

r62 Again, you have nothing but bile and empty slogans. What the hell does Khashoggi even have to do with story?? I'm the one who's actually citing sources, literature, and evidence.

by Anonymousreply 63October 20, 2018 2:29 PM

Islam is a disgrace for humanity.

by Anonymousreply 64October 20, 2018 2:30 PM

The only people who are critical of Islam are the retarded inbred Christian conservatives and deplorable trumptards. Any educated, cultured progressive can really see how Islam is religion that celebrate diversity, fostering peace and promising equality and harmony. Stop watching Faux News and get your information about Islam from reliable and respectful news sources like Al-Jazeera. Together we can create an intersectional Muslim movement to resist Trump and his right wing fascism.

#loveislove #nomuslimbanever #refugeeswelcome

by Anonymousreply 65October 20, 2018 4:00 PM

10 Reasons to Reject Islam

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by Anonymousreply 66October 20, 2018 4:21 PM

R66, I've watched most of that guy's videos. They are very interesting. Very brave of him, he is taking his life in his hands being so open about leaving islam, let alone criticizing islam openly,

Btw, it should be FEWER guns, more anal.

by Anonymousreply 67October 21, 2018 2:08 PM

It seems to be a well known fact that there's a lot of gay sex among Middle Eastern men; it's just that they rationalise it differently. Although "gay" is a foreign concept to them that is only a reflection of modern Western culture R67

by Anonymousreply 68October 21, 2018 5:46 PM

I went to a wedding in Morocco. Only the men danced and I seemed to be very popular with the younger Moroccan guys, very suggestive and sexual dancing while the women-folk sat around smiling and clapping.

by Anonymousreply 69October 21, 2018 11:19 PM

r69, I've heard some similar things. Also in middle eastern culture is top is not considered gay at all. Like not even remotely. Its not like how we view things, a masculine top. A top in their culture, is synonymous with masculinity therefore being gay would be contradictory. Its very strange.

by Anonymousreply 70October 21, 2018 11:57 PM

A few years ago when I was browsing through a well known dating website I got to chat with a man from Iraq who had big muscles. As soon as I mentioned that the night before I did butt exercises he asked me to show him pics of my butt.

by Anonymousreply 71October 22, 2018 4:03 AM

In Scruff, search locations in the Muslim world. Lots and lots and lots of guys seeking, even in places like Riyad.

by Anonymousreply 72October 22, 2018 4:39 AM

I had a friend who worked for 10 years in Saudi Arabia, as a pharmacist in Taif. (A mountain town near Mecca). He said that Westerners were propositioned multiple times daily by boys and men. This was in the last 25 years, not in the distant past. His roommate tutored English in the apartment they shared. The people who came for lessons, (mostly teens between 17 and 20) headed straight back to his bedroom where they had their blow job or whatever they were after. The society is incredibly segregated by sex. Teenage boys may never be alone with women - EVER. They are in their hormonal peak years. You do the math.......it's not rocket science. Most would never admit to being gay or that their activities were gay.

by Anonymousreply 73October 22, 2018 6:16 AM

R73 that is because they are not gay.

They are sexual, but not gay. Gay is a Western cultural construct.

by Anonymousreply 74October 22, 2018 8:34 AM

Same-sex attracted R74

I agree, gay is not necessarily an accurate descriptor for homosexuality but rather a western idea constructed around male homosexuality which is foreign to Middle Easterns R74

by Anonymousreply 75October 22, 2018 8:53 AM

The term “gay” is very negative to masculine mainstream men throughout the world, let alone in the Muslim world

by Anonymousreply 76October 22, 2018 11:27 AM

r71 This Iraqi dude, did his profile say what he was after - men or women?

by Anonymousreply 77October 22, 2018 1:49 PM

10 years ago The Atlantic published a piece on homosexuality in Saudi Arabia.

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by Anonymousreply 78October 22, 2018 1:53 PM

[quote]The term “gay” is very negative to masculine mainstream men throughout the world, let alone in the Muslim world

This the problem. Muslims not adapting and individuals excusing it.

by Anonymousreply 79October 22, 2018 2:06 PM

His profile said he liked women, but still he showed great interest in my butt. We never mentioned the word homosexuality nor made any reference to it in the slightest though. I think that's how homosexual things happen among most Middle Eastern men. They can love the male body and have hot sex with men but they stay away from labels. R77

It is hard to put it into words but I think they are perfectly aware what they do is homosexuality but they avoid the term; not the act.

by Anonymousreply 80October 22, 2018 2:49 PM

[quote]Abrahamic religions, especially fundamentalist sects -- are the scourge of enlightened society.

[quote]Religions are the scourge of enlightened society.

Fixed.

by Anonymousreply 81October 22, 2018 2:54 PM

[quote]His profile said he liked women, but still he showed great interest in my butt.

Not surprising. On Pornhub, you can find profiles of Moroccans and whatnot saying they only like women, but if you check their list of watched videos, it's just gay porn.

In the 70s, French sociologists found that homosexuality occurred often and openly among Moroccan males. It's a pity that the closet took over the country world so fast.

by Anonymousreply 82October 22, 2018 3:18 PM

Should Muslims have to adapt to Western culture? Just curious on if Datalounge agrees or not.

by Anonymousreply 83October 22, 2018 3:25 PM

If they are going to live in Western countries, yes.

by Anonymousreply 84October 22, 2018 3:26 PM

Or better throw away Islam, it only harms people.

by Anonymousreply 85October 22, 2018 3:29 PM

[quote]They are sexual, but not gay. Gay is a Western cultural construct.

I want to believe R84 and R85 but I have concerns. There seems to be a real attempt to remove “gay” and I feel homophobic/self-loathing homosexuals (using that as opposed to gay, since they may not call themselves gay) will allow it.

by Anonymousreply 86October 22, 2018 4:15 PM

Gay is a western concept and an ambiguous one honestly speaking. Homosexual only refers to sexual orientation and there is no ambiguity around it. Gay, on the other hand is ambiguou as it usually makes reference to gender-noncomformity which is not sexual orientation. Also, gay is associated with western stereotypes and cliches surrounding homosexuality that don't reall reonate wiht Middle Eastern societies. Liking Maddona and Lady Gga's music, spekaing like agheto black woman, etc, these are all "gay" stereotypes and that's why Middle Eastern tend to see the word "gay" as alien to them.

Middle Eastern gay men tend to be more inclined to bodybuilding than Lady Gaga.

by Anonymousreply 87October 22, 2018 4:23 PM

R85 I think the men you think of as self loathing because they don't want GAY in their lives actually love themselves more than some queen who feels he must conform to a culture for acceptance.

by Anonymousreply 88October 22, 2018 4:25 PM

It's a huge sin, HAH-RAHM, as it's called in Arabic.

In Islam it's a no go zone. It became a crime because the Prophet -- peace be upon him -- was told by Allah, the moon God, that two blokes getting it ON was no 'hood for the good.

by Anonymousreply 89October 22, 2018 4:31 PM

R83 Isnt that cultural imperialism? Enforcing the idea that Muslims are "the other" akin to treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany. There is nothing wrong with Islam as a religion just like Christianity.

by Anonymousreply 90October 22, 2018 4:41 PM

What types of men do Arabic men go for? Seems like many of them have a thing for soft featured blondes. Androgynous looking too.

by Anonymousreply 91October 22, 2018 4:46 PM

[quote]There is nothing wrong with Islam as a religion just like Christianity.

DEAR. GOD.

by Anonymousreply 92October 22, 2018 4:46 PM

All religions are cults. Every single one. God hates religion.

by Anonymousreply 93October 22, 2018 4:48 PM

The Koran and the Bible are two totally different texts. Even an moron with only a cursory knowledge of each could tell you that. The foundational principles of Islam and Christianity are very, very different.

by Anonymousreply 94October 22, 2018 4:49 PM

Both of them suck donkey dicks.....atheism forever.

by Anonymousreply 95October 22, 2018 4:52 PM

R88 and R90 are why I don’t believe Muslims will conform to Western ideals and I think gay people are going to be worse off later than they are now.

by Anonymousreply 96October 22, 2018 4:54 PM

R94, you could say the same thing about the Old & New Testaments.

OT: narcissistic, sociopathic volcano-god who abuses his friends and makes Lucifer look ambivalently-saintly by comparison.

NT: beatnik hippie-god preaches love & goodness, "followers" conveniently overlook it to justify their own hatred & bigotry.

Nobody thinks a nerdy Jewish kid or hippie gay couple intend to smite vengeance on their neighbors, yet the same people assume anyone who's even nominally Muslim is a closet ISIS member who aspires to suicide-bombing. Not everyone is a foaming-fundie. For most people, religion is just a broad cultural framework that determines the holidays they celebrate, how they act in public, and where they go for weddings & funerals, but has little direct influence on their actual beliefs or private behavior.

by Anonymousreply 97October 23, 2018 5:01 PM

the problem with islam is that it really inspires hatred of the other even worse than the bible.

by Anonymousreply 98October 23, 2018 5:55 PM

Islam has never gone through an Enlightenment, the Koran is still quite literal to these people. Islam has never had large numbers of people leave the religion either, and only be Muslim nominally. Most modern Christians, for example, think most of the Bible is bullshit and just ignore it and are not religious in their day-to-day lives. Muslims have yet to reach this point.

by Anonymousreply 99October 23, 2018 8:48 PM

And, we’re letting them into the US, R99. As well other countries like France, Germany. It’s like they are letting legions of the “god hates f-gs” people in. Maybe nobody is thinking clearly.

by Anonymousreply 100October 23, 2018 9:01 PM

[quote]For most people, religion is just a broad cultural framework that determines the holidays they celebrate, how they act in public, and where they go for weddings & funerals, but has little direct influence on their actual beliefs or private behavior.

For most Christians, yes. For most Muslims, no.

by Anonymousreply 101October 23, 2018 11:19 PM

British colonial laws also brought homophobia to India. Hinduism was never anti-gay before the Brits went there

by Anonymousreply 102October 23, 2018 11:37 PM

The comments about Islam on here are hilarious. You don’t actually know any Muslims do you.?

Polls show that Muslims in America are far more accepting of gays than evangelical Christians. That makes sense because those Muslims share American values of equality and freedom. I personally know a few Muslims and They have been very accepting of me and my husband.

Maybe go out and meet some Muslims before you use broad brushes to paint people have homophobic,

by Anonymousreply 103October 23, 2018 11:41 PM

I always hear right winger wanting to strip gays of their rights in America. I never hear Muslim Americans say anything against gays.

by Anonymousreply 104October 23, 2018 11:42 PM

From Pew, R103? Post that link.

by Anonymousreply 105October 23, 2018 11:43 PM

r103 what about the Muslims in Europe and the Middle East?

by Anonymousreply 106October 23, 2018 11:49 PM

Link.

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by Anonymousreply 107October 23, 2018 11:50 PM

It's not a new poll r105. It was posted here often when it went public.

And needs to be posted more often.

The extreme Christian right is a bigger threat to gay rights in North America. Probably a bigger terror threat overall.

by Anonymousreply 108October 23, 2018 11:57 PM

Poster at R107.

by Anonymousreply 109October 23, 2018 11:58 PM

[quote]The extreme Christian right is a bigger threat to gay rights in North America. Probably a bigger terror threat overall.

Actually, the more rabid members are dying out. The Christian right has nowhere near the influence it had in the 80s and even 90s. The younger generations aren't all that devout like their parents or grandparents.

by Anonymousreply 110October 24, 2018 12:02 AM

R103 is a troll who posts that same shit in every thread. Obviously it wouldn’t occur to him to combine all Christians and Muslims and do the same survey—that would be fair, wouldn’t it? We have to give Muzzies a handicap by only comparing them to American evangelical Christians to show how AWESOME and PROGRESSIVE they are.

by Anonymousreply 111October 24, 2018 12:04 AM

r93, Buddhism is not a cult. Just sayin.

by Anonymousreply 112October 24, 2018 12:10 AM

How interesting that the west caused homosexuality in the middle east to become a crime, yet not one of the 57 muslim-majority countries have bothered to decriminalize homosexuality in the 100 years since the end of colonialism. In 10 of them it is still a capital offense.

I call bullshit on the whole premise. Gay hatred, Jew hatred, non-believer hatred, it is all in the koran and the hadith and overwhelmingly so.

by Anonymousreply 113October 24, 2018 12:37 AM

Extreme evangelical Christians are a bigger threat to my well-being in North America than any Muslim could be.

To be continued.

by Anonymousreply 114October 24, 2018 2:36 AM

American Muslims are mostly educated professional and educated people tends to be less religious and secular which explains why some Muslim in America seemingly more progressive than Christian. Many of them migrated to America to escape their shithole Muslim country anyway. This is very different from the less educated Muslim migrants in Europe who are more hardline in their view hence all the problem with integration.

by Anonymousreply 115October 24, 2018 6:01 AM

Taqiyya, never rule out taqiyya.

by Anonymousreply 116October 24, 2018 6:12 AM

There's also a phenomenon where Muslims seem to become more radical (or at least more open about their beliefs) as their population density increases. For all the "immigrant Muslims become tolerant" people, check out the results of the Australian gay marriage referendum. In particular, look at the demographics of the Sydney and Melbourne areas which also happened to be the biggest "NO" votes.

by Anonymousreply 117October 24, 2018 6:17 AM

Homosexuality was always a crime in Islam punishable by death. It's in the hadith and therefore part of Sharia law.

by Anonymousreply 118October 24, 2018 7:14 AM

R99, tell that to an average person from Istanbul (or any other big city in Turkey), and they'll laugh at you. During the 1960s, you would have gotten the same reaction in Tehran, Kabul, Baghdad, Damascus, and Cairo.

The fundies came to power because the secular Muslims tended to be Baa'athists who allied with the Soviet Union, so the US allied with the religious fundamentalists who opposed them. That's not to say an average Turk enthusiastically supports gay rights.... But then again, neither did an average New Yorker in the 1970s. Or early 2000s, for that matter. There are plenty of Christians, Jews, and Muslims whose religious beliefs are an excuse for the prejudices they had long before their religious dogma entered into the equation.

To be clear, being officially gay in most Muslim countries will get you looked down upon (at best), but they have an equal belief that if someone is making even a half-assed attempt to feign heterosexuality (say, by marrying a lesbian.... Or a lesbian couple...), outing them and scandalizing their families is morally worse than being gay itself. It's harder to "be openly gay", but arguably easier to get away with being privately gay than it was in much of the US 20 years ago.

by Anonymousreply 119October 24, 2018 7:15 AM

Some say there is a rise of atheism in the Middle Eas and Egypt.

by Anonymousreply 120October 24, 2018 7:27 AM

R120 There is.

by Anonymousreply 121October 24, 2018 7:29 AM

[quote]I never hear Muslim Americans say anything against gays.

I have never heard anything more absurd than your statement R104. There are dozens of dozens of examples were gays and women are being beaten up, molested, threatened and killed by Muslims in Europe and the US.

I know the brainwashing is strong with religious fundies, but you just won the Tom Cruise prize of the year.

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by Anonymousreply 122October 24, 2018 7:36 AM

[quote]50 years ago, cities like Kabul, Tehran, Cairo, and Damascus were SHOCKINGLY progressive about gay tolerance compared to the US.

Pre Shah, gay sex was punishable by death, after the Shah when the fundies took over 'because the Shah was too western' and the death penalty was installed again.

by Anonymousreply 123October 24, 2018 8:22 AM

Lots of misinformation here. For instance, the death penalty, which was UNIVERSAL among Abrahamic religions (started with Judaism, after all) was RARELY applied for homosexual acts. It was on the books though for all of them, well into the 20th century and in the judicial codes in lots of Western countries too. The danger of a law being on the books but rarely applied, is that it can be used as a political weapon to get rid of someone you don't like. "I heard he likes boys " whisper whisper. Islam had ceased being a fundamentalist religion by the end of the Ottoman empire. That's one of the reasons why Attaturk so easily came to power in Turkey and abolished most outward signs of Muslim life. That all ended after WWII. Between the breakdown of the Ottoman empire, the breakdown of the British Empire, and the breakdown of the French Arab colonies, the rise of Israel, and the marginalization of the Palestinians, there was a power vacuum, and clever power-hungry leaders, as everywhere in every age, figured out that they could use religion, and especially the fundamentalist kinds as a way to radicalize the people. They started to fund religious -based education, did away with public schools, looked for scapegoats for the problems they created, which were nearly always "Western-minded homosexuals", and voila, problems solved.

I'm convinced that homosexual behavior (cocksucking, assfucking) is just as prevalent as it has ever been in the Middle East. Which is to say, VERY PREVALENT. However, as long as people convince themselves and others that they are just doing it because women are not available, that they're NOT THAT WAY, and that as soon as they have a female partner they will stop, society will look the other way in most cases. If caught, people will say it was a one-time thing, repent, and away they go- to have a lot more male male sex. It's only that tiny minority who want to have a live-in BF, want to act queeny in public if they are in the mood, don't want to ever get married to a woman, who are dragged in front of judges and sent to prison, or are flogged. Those are the ones who used to apply for asylum in the US, but of course, Trump is having them turned away.

by Anonymousreply 124October 24, 2018 8:55 AM

P.S. Homosexuality was illegal in the US until less than 20 years ago. (Sodomy) . Granted it was rarely enforced and not with capital punishment for a hundred years or more, but God bless Napoleon, who made it legal in 1800 and thus it was in all the countries that used the Napoleonic code as the basis of their legal systems LONG before the legal systems of the US, the UK, Canada, and Australia caught up.

Although the legal system has the potential to be lethal, the biggest danger has always come from society in general. If approval is given by the dominant religion, swarms of bored adolescents will always descend upon any single gay man or couple to do whatever damage they can with weapons at hand. That was as true in the Italian and Irish neighborhoods of Brooklyn as it ever was in the streets of Riyadh or Baghdad.

by Anonymousreply 125October 24, 2018 9:02 AM

It seem everytime someone needs to defend Islam its always " 20 years ago" or "50 years ago" talk. Nobody gives a shit if Istanbul or Tehran is more gay friendly than New York 100 years ago. The issue is that contemporary Muslim societies TODAY are very hostile towards gays in general. While the west including America undergone great strides when it comes into gay rights in the last 10 years Islamic countries are going the opposite direction.

by Anonymousreply 126October 24, 2018 9:07 AM

[quote]Islamic countries are going the opposite direction.

Muslim societies are not "going" in any direction. They are where they have always been: homo hating. It is no coincidence that the countries in which homosexuality is a capital crime and death sentence are all Muslim.

by Anonymousreply 127October 24, 2018 9:37 AM

Most states got rid of their sodomy laws in the 70s, 80s and 90s, R125.

by Anonymousreply 128October 24, 2018 9:47 AM

But sodomy was still illegal in about 15 states through mid 2003.

by Anonymousreply 129October 24, 2018 12:22 PM

Like everywhere in the world, everyone wants the sex, but nobody wants the word "gay."

by Anonymousreply 130October 24, 2018 12:27 PM

All religions are cults. Even Buddhism.

All religions and faiths are a poisoning of the mind.

All beliefs are a poisoning of the mind. There is always data to disprove a belief.

by Anonymousreply 131October 24, 2018 12:29 PM

We're actually equating sodomy laws with Muslim intolerance of homosexuality? Um, ok.

by Anonymousreply 132October 24, 2018 12:41 PM

Am I the ony one who finds the word "sodomy" offensive?

For those who have not read the story of Sodom and Gomorrah or haven't really paid attention to what is told in it what the men of S&G wanted to do is rape, gang rape. Evangelicals coined "sodomy" stigmatising same-sex sexual intercourse as a form of rape or abusive sex. When you say "sodomy" you are equating same-sex sexual intercourse with rape.

by Anonymousreply 133October 24, 2018 5:02 PM

Is this truly practiced or is it a myth?

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by Anonymousreply 134October 24, 2018 5:04 PM

[quote]Like everywhere in the world, everyone wants the sex, but nobody wants the word "gay."

Not with me, but I think I may be in minority. I think gays (Or whatever you are) could allow “gay” to be removed, physically too.

by Anonymousreply 135October 24, 2018 5:08 PM

So my sister’s Egyptian boyfriend won’t attack me if he knows I’m a lesbian, OP?

Not that I care what he thinks or if he approves of my sexuality as he’s a man and a religious one so fuck him, but I feel it’s still best to be truthful with the loved ones of one’s loved ones if it’s possible...

by Anonymousreply 136November 2, 2018 10:17 PM

R133, the term sodomy predates evangelicals

by Anonymousreply 137November 2, 2018 10:25 PM

Assfucking predates English, so what did they call it before the Monotheistards coined that term?

by Anonymousreply 138November 2, 2018 10:42 PM

Homosexuality was decriminalized in Jordan in 1951. I have many friends throughout the Middle East who are gay. Their sexuality remains mosty hidden. Arab culture honors old age and many younger gay men whom I know are particularly attracted to much older men.

by Anonymousreply 139November 4, 2018 12:21 PM
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