Families separated under Obama?

From NPR.

Fuck you OP.

Hey, Deplorable OP. I missed the part in both of your linked stories where it talks about the government ripping children from their parents and putting them in cages.

See video in OP, R3. Hard to miss.

Cages, R3?

Dude - unaccompanied child is not the same as a child with a mother who is then taken from the mother by immigration.

It IS the same thing, R6!

I Called It!! In the other thread, I told all and sundry that the deplorable Nazis would adopt these talking points. Common trash!

Think about it. This shows the best Trump can do is the worse of Obama’s mistakes.

The Trumpanzees in my town seem to be going for some explanation that "80 percent of the children arrived with no adult," which must have been something they heard on talk radio today.

Whataboutism

Children in cages, separated from parents, same. Facts are facts.

While I'm all for critiquing Trump, I can acknowledge there were unfortunate events that occurred under the Obama presidency. No one is perfect. It does disturb me that some in these parts either refuse to acknowledge that, or feel that *any* criticism of Obama or his policies is some sign of weakness.

No, R12. Unaccompanied minors are not the same as babies being ripped away from their mothers and stuck in a cage. If you think the former is wrong, by the way, then quit defending Trump. Your attack on Obama is a tacit admission that imprisoning babies and separating them from their parents is wrong.

Trump, your hero, is wrong. So, admit it.

Hey OP what’s it like to have to lie to make your political arguments? Must be depressing.

R14, read R13, They are BOTH wrong.

Op is janbot LOL holy shit

CBS and NPR are telling lies, R15? How bout Vox, your favorite.

R16. No. Stop it with the false equivalency. It's pathetic and reeks of desperation.

Republicans are so weak.

But Obama is black and Trump is white, so in Trumptardland, that makes what Obama did is wrong, and what Trump is doing is right.

Deplorables are way too easy to decipher their "coded" language.

"Human Rights Groups Blast Obama’s Plan to Open New Immigrant Family Detention Centers"

A senator was just talking about this on Chris Hayes. Not sure what the policy was at first but it was agreed the children would be detained for no more than 20 days then released to its parents. The senator was Hispanic and remarked that Obama has a heart and they spoke to his compassion.

Tell me R18, why is it you can't tell the difference between a teen-ager (aka an unaccompanied minor) and a baby who's wearing diapers?

Again, your attempt to draw a false equivalency between the two situations is a tacit admission that Trump's actions were profoundly wrong.

But you're too much of a coward to admit it. Like I said, Republicans are weak--that's why they're so susceptible to authoritarianism. They're afraid to be responsible for themselves--they want big daddy Putin to tell them what to do.

Trump's administration decided to make ripping babies away from their mothers a TALKING point father day weekend. They thought it was a HILARIOUS punch line and a great example of how to make libtards heads explode.

I'm sorry, but 'womp womp'?

i sometimes still can't believe how these 'deplorables' are truly deplorable.

R13 Obama is a saint.

We must bow down to Mawa Obawa.

R23, you keep harping on that, no one in this thread said Trump's actions weren't wrong (except R20). The point is the SAME thing was done by Obama, and you and others didn't shed a tear for the kids then. You care abut the kids or just Trump? And they are no more "teens" than the current ones. Look at the pics.

[quote]The Trumpanzees in my town seem to be going for some explanation that "80 percent of the children arrived with no adult," which must have been something they heard on talk radio today.

The “80 percent” unaccompanied children figure was stated by DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen during her contentious press conference on Monday.

None of the “liberal” media reporters in attendance questioned her on it or attempted to refute it, so I would have to assume it is true.

R27, No, Obama didn't do the same thing. As I said, false equivalency. So, no, no babies in diapers were unaccompanied minors. You do know what "unaccompanied" means, right? That they weren't with their parents, as opposed to being *taken* from their parents.

You're a Deplorable looking for a way out like a stupid little kid on a playground looking to distract with whataboutism. This is here and now--Trump did this and he did it with the intention of causing pain and pressuring Democrats to fund his wall. It wasn't an accident or unintended side effect.

Unless you were fighting for the rights of unaccompanied minors in 2014, I'm not buying this as anything but a pathetic attempt at distraction.

[quote]The point is the SAME thing was done by Obama

And, as repeatedly pointed out, it wasn't the SAME. Once you begin to grasp the difference, we might be able to have a real discussion.

Of course, the whole thing is just an attempt distract from the repugnant policies of the Trump administration.

[bold]WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. WRONG.[/bold]

This is how bullshit disinformation gets spread.

So, OP--ready to apologize for misleading people, yet?

The detained immigrant who died in custody in OP's link was not a minor at all—unaccompanied or otherwise—but a 38-year-old man. I think we all know, and no one is trying to argue otherwise, that yes, adults who crossed the border illegally during the Obama administration were sometimes detained. And, yes, kids who crossed the border unaccompanied—as in, on their own, without parents or adult family members—were taken into custody. But children who arrived with their families were never separated from their parents. These concepts and the differences among them are not difficult to understand.

R33, Also, of course, the people detained under Trump weren't trying to illegally cross the border. They were and are petitioning for asylum, which is perfectly legal.

Obama never separated kids from their families. The kids he detained arrived on their own, without parents.

Why do Trumpanzees keep lying? Didn't their parents ever tell them about what happened to the boy who cried wolf?

So much misinformation here. Let's clarify.

1. Under Obama, children were allowed to stay with the adults. They were either detained with the adults who were arrested, or released with the adults.

2. Back in 2015, the 9th circuit court ruled that children could not be detained with the arrested adults.

3. At that point, there were two options: the children were either separated from the arrested adult, or released with the adult; typically they were released. However under Obama, there *was* separation between adult and child if we suspected there was not a family relationship.

4. The "change in policy" that occurred was that under Trump, we are now detaining anyone crossing illegally, they are no longer releasing immigrants who cross illegally without first detaining them.

5. When we detain those adults, we must separate the children because of the 9th circuit court ruling. There was no change in policy specific to the children.

6. Yes, people seeking asylum is perfectly legal - therefore those who go to the proper post to seek asylum are NOT arrested or detained, and there is no separation. However, those who first cross illegally, are detained, and then claim to be seeking asylum are still detained, and that's where separation occurs.

Options are thus:

A. Continue to separate children from adults. Clearly this is generally not the best scenario, unless we believe there is no family relationship. (For instance, child sex trafficking cases.)

B. Allow the children to stay with the detained adult. This is what Trump is attempting to do through his executive order, although it's unlikely this will stand because of the previous 9th Circuit ruling.

C. Release the adults with children. While this was largely what happened under Obama, the concern with this is we have basically just opened the border by allowing anyone entry to the U.S. provided they have a child with them.

D. Refuse entry, and turn the individuals around.

Truly, there are no good options here. It's frustrating to me because all I'm hearing from people, media, and government officials is bitch, bitch, bitch, with no one proposing solutions or alternatives. And I'm forced to agree with Trump when he says Congress should be passing legislation to fix this. It's up to the LEGISLATIVE branch to CHANGE THE LAWS. It's up to the EXECUTIVE branch to EXECUTE THE LAWS. And we are currently executing the laws as written. Why we are looking to the President to change the law is beyond me. It's like everyone has forgotten how our government is supposed to work.

You're missing one thing R36, which is that Trump has basically made it impossible to apply for asylum at the border (in violation of U.S. and international law.) There are arbitrary closings and turning away of people. We're basically looking at entrapment.

So, no, we're not executing the laws as written as Sessions/Trump have been violating the law with this zero-tolerance party.

So, kudos for trying to sound rational, but the poor-widdle-Trump was just following the law argument does *not* cut it. Trump/Miller have been using young children as pawns so Drumpf can get his wall.

Immigration's been a mess for a long time, but the current situation is on Trump and his gang. No one else. So don't lie about it. It's irritating.

R37, what are the laws being broken? The US is still taking refugees seeking asylum at ports of entry. Are there laws that are being broken in this process?

[quote][R23], you keep harping on that, no one in this thread said Trump's actions weren't wrong (except [R20]). The point is the SAME thing was done by Obama, and you and others didn't shed a tear for the kids then. You care about the kids or just Trump? And they are no more "teens" than the current ones. Look at the pics.

First of all, it wasn’t policy. The Obama administration has admitted they did separate a few families ONLY to gauge the situation the child was in. They did not do this to EVERY family that crossed the border. They did not use the back of Walmarts for space to house those children or place them in tents in the fucking Summer in Texas. Obama did not lie to the public and place the blame on Republicans OR pretend that he didn't’ have the power to end this himself. Nor did he try to blackmail the Republicans for a while that he failed to get built even though the promise of it won him the election.

Also, that’s the only photo you assholes have as “Evidence” and that’s as thin as the hair on your head. So pathetic. I’ve seen that one photo AT LEAST a million times on my Facebook feed.

[quote][R13] Obama is a saint.

[quote]We must bow down to Mawa Obawa.

Comparatively speaking, yes. ABSOLUTELY. God knows your leader wants to go down on him.

Is absolutely every country in South America life-threateningly dangerous?

That seems to be a popular belief. These are mostly economic migrants. You are right, there are no good options. They should be detained together if they’re coming in unlawfully and then Trump and the Democrats can just fight it out with the courts. Can they not be detained close to the border until their cases are heard? Inside the USA so they are allowed conditional entry? That way, they don’t have to be turned back nor let loose to go anywhere they want and thus avoid the law completely as they have been doing?

There are solutions, but no one wants to work on those. Anybody can ask for asylum of course, but seems like the Central Americans are getting a free ride.

[quote]They should be detained together if they’re coming in unlawfully and then Trump and the Democrats can just fight it out with the courts. Can they not be detained close to the border until their cases are heard? Inside the USA so they are allowed conditional entry? That way, they don’t have to be turned back nor let loose to go anywhere they want and thus avoid the law completely as they have been doing?

Assuming Trump's executive order can stand, they will be detained together in the US. However there is already pushback that the children should not be held in detention.

There has been a huge influx in the border crossings, so reports are that the agents/posts are overwhelmed. The easy answer there is to hire more ICE workers, but with the timeframe for hiring and training, it's not like that can happen next week.

We also have a cap on the number of refugees we take in. Trump set this number lower for 2018 (around 45,000, compared to about 70,000 in recent history). But are these true amnesty cases, where they can't safely remain in their country? Or people trying whatever methods are available to get in? Amnesty claims have to be investigated and can be turned down.

Thank you, R36, for posting a well-informed SANE post among all the prattle.

"Why we are looking to the President to change the law is beyond me. It's like everyone has forgotten how our government is supposed to work."

And no one has forgotten that more than Trump. Trump thinks he is king/emperor/dictator, and whatever happy horseshit tumbles out of his mouth is the law. It's as if he won some huge mandate to govern in a my-way-or-the-highway manner.

Sorry, bitch, it don't work that way, not now, not ever.

OP = a deeply closeted Steven Miller.

R38, Here you go, educate yourself--there are links.

R42, Your proof for these people being mostly economic migrants? I've heard that claim made about African migrants to Europe, but not about asylum seekers from Central America. Indeed, economic migration from Mexico peaked several years ago as the economic situation in Mexico improved. The asylum applicants are, indeed, from countries that are dangerous and unstable: Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala.

By the way, just to put this troll thread to good use--RAICES has now raised $17 million in bond money for asylum seekers, so they are freed from detention and, one hopes, can be reunited with their children while they wait on their applications.

My kid’s elementary school is doing a drive for supplies and clothing to support the foster agencies. The Cayuga one that was in the news.

They’re also asking kids to make cards for the migrant kids. For some reason, that’s the one thing that broke my cold black heart - asking my kid if they’d like to make a card for another kid who was lost in the world.

They’re also looking for Spanish-speaking foster families.

We already have enough desperate people here already!

Why are we importing more starving desperate people?

[quote] while they wait on their applications

Oh, my sides! Surely you're joking.

This issue arouses all the 'Fraus' and the 'Bleeding hearts' and the 'Do-Gooders' like Georgie—

[quote]Truly, there are no good options here. It's frustrating to me because all I'm hearing from people, media, and government officials is bitch, bitch, bitch, with no one proposing solutions or alternatives.

Yes, actually there are. There was an Obama administration plan that offered a monitored release with representation to those families applying for asylum. Per ICE figures, 99% of them subsequently showed up for their hearings. Trump, of course, threw out the plan. There is no reason at all to not return to that plan, which worked, and was both legal and fair. Nobody was guaranteed entry, nobody was calling for "open borders," but we offered a fair hearing to those applying for asylum.

[quote]And I'm forced to agree with Trump when he says Congress should be passing legislation to fix this.

Then you're a fool.

[quote]It's up to the LEGISLATIVE branch to CHANGE THE LAWS.

Prior administrations were able to deal with these issues with the laws as they are today. This "crisis" was created by Trump. And only he is responsible.

[quote]It's up to the EXECUTIVE branch to EXECUTE THE LAWS. And we are currently executing the laws as written.

No. The Trump administration is interpreting the law in a way that suits their cruel and inhumane agenda. No prior administration shared that interpretation.

[quote]Why we are looking to the President to change the law is beyond me.

Because Trump manufactured this crisis with his cruel and inhuman policy.

[quote]It's like everyone has forgotten how our government is supposed to work.

It's like you've been asleep for the past two months, wholly ignorant of the reality of what's happening now and why it's happening.

[quote]There has been a huge influx in the border crossings

Not from what I've read. Immigration was way down last year and is returning to more normal levels this year. This was a largely manufactured crisis specifically intended to appeal to Trump's base and to "send a message."

[quote]Thank you, R36, for posting a well-informed SANE post among all the prattle.

Now if it had only been accurate as well as "SANE."

Even if all you do is a straightforward "catch and release" without offering any support, representation, or monitoring, a 2017 report found that 63% of those people released showed up for the hearings. And that report came from an organization that is not pro-immigration.

[quote]But Graham’s 80 percent estimate for no-shows is way off, according to experts. The Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank that advocates for tighter border controls, found in a 2017 report that “over the past 20 years, 37 percent of all aliens free pending their trials — 918,098 out of 2,498,375 — never showed for court.”

[quote]That means 63 percent did show up for their immigration hearings, much higher than what Graham indicated.

Another study found that if you looked at women with children, that figure climbed to between 80 and 90%. And if those families had representation, it climbed to over 99%. It's simply false that there are no solutions, that there is no other way, that Trump had no choice, or that Congress has to fix this. This is all on Trump.

[quote]Your proof for these people being mostly economic migrants?

It doesn't matter. If they are "economic migrants," their request for asylum will be denied and they will be returned. Conservatives are trying to pretend that Democrats want "open borders" and want to simply grant asylum to everyone. Those are deliberate lies. All Democrats want is for families to not be broken up and for their asylum requests to be given a fair hearing.

[quote] If they are "economic migrants," their request for asylum will be denied and they will be returned.

Wow are you naive.

Wow, did you offer no proof of your assertion, r59.

[quote]Another study found that if you looked at women with children, that figure climbed to between 80 and 90%. And if those families had representation, it climbed to over 99%. It's simply false that there are no solutions, that there is no other way, that Trump had no choice, or that Congress has to fix this. This is all on Trump.

I can't access the WaPo story linked. If someone has access, please share the source of the study.

I still do not understand why people feel this is "all on Trump". Why are we so against Congressional involvement to change the laws? Congress has the power to initiate the change, refuses to do so, and... they're not at fault? Makes no sense to me. Why exactly have we elected these people?

[quote]Wow are you naive.

Wow are you stupid.

[quote]Wow, did you offer no proof of your assertion, R59.

Just a knowledge of the law and of the immigration court system, and knowing that the majority of asylum requests are denied. Economic asylum requests are not granted.

[quote]I still do not understand why people feel this is "all on Trump".

Because this was all a direct result of Trump's policies put in place in May of this year.

[quote]Why are we so against Congressional involvement to change the laws?

"We" aren't. But Congress doesn't need to act to fix Trump's policies. This is all on Trump. No law, anywhere, required that his administration act as it did. And no law is required for Trump to rescind his cruel and inhumane policy.

[quote]Congress has the power to initiate the change, refuses to do so, and... they're not at fault?

Not when the problem was caused by Trump. It's funny how you just don't want to acknowledge Trump's role in this. Why is that, exactly?

[quote]Makes no sense to me.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[quote]Why exactly have we elected these people?

Not to clean up messes caused by Trump, certainly. If Congress chooses to modify our immigration laws, political junkies on this forum will happily debate the merits of those proposals. Republicans are in charge and, thus far, they haven't been able to come up with anything that will pass even the House, much less the Senate. If you want to point the finger of blame at Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell for their failure to act, I have no problem with that but that still doesn't change the fact that this was all on Trump.

[quote]I still do not understand why people feel this is "all on Trump".

[quote]Because this was all a direct result of Trump's policies put in place in May of this year.

So your issue is with the Trump "zero tolerance" policy, where immigrants crossing the border illegally are now arrested and detained?

Former Director of Homeland Security Jeh Johnson on the Immigration/separation issues: "There are no easy fixes to this problem."

How did he receive medication as an illegal immigrant? I am sure he wasn't insured. Something is off with this story.

Also this was an adult, not a child.

Try harder OP

R64: No, it's the fact that any and all asylum seekers are being detained and their children were ripped away for no damn good reason. 90% of asylum seekers with kids show up to their hearings after being released, the way it was done under the Obama administration. Had you bothered to read any of this thread, you would know this. This will NOT be explained to you again.

R66, the story was CBS.

It was OP's story R68.

I've read the thread, and the links except the WaPo article as I noted, R67. There are a lot of comments about people seeking asylum, and a lot of comments about illegal immigrants, so forgive me for not knowing your specific position.

You seem to think I'm a troll or Trump supporter. I'm not. But I believe there's a need for tougher immigration laws and security, which I guess separates me from the rest of the Democrats. I have opinions on the topic, but I'm open-minded as well.

What would you propose we do when an applicant is turned down for asylum? By law, we have 180 days to return a decision (in reality it could take longer), so do we then tell those individuals they need to leave the country? I suspect there are an increasing number of asylum claims, as a result of the illegal immigration crackdowns, and yet we do have limits on the number of asylum refugees we will accept. So I would not be surprised if more and more of these claims get rejected (especially since Sessions recently made a statement about spousal abuse not being a legitimate claim for asylum).

[quote]So your issue is with the Trump "zero tolerance" policy, where immigrants crossing the border illegally are now arrested and detained?

Duh. Why is that so hard to understand? Prior administrations were able to cope with our current system. So could the Trump administration, until he implemented a policy he didn't understand, with side effects his administration wasn't equipped to handle, after which you had over 2000 children taken from their parents, with no plans for dealing with them.

[quote]You seem to think I'm a troll or Trump supporter. I'm not.

We don't really give a shit. You have been repeatedly posting ignorant drivel, even to the point of ignoring very clear answers to your questions. As to the root cause of that drivel, nobody here cares.

[quote]What would you propose we do when an applicant is turned down for asylum?

When they're turned down, they are returned to their home country. I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing for that to change.

[quote]so do we then tell those individuals they need to leave the country?

We don't just tell them, we fly them out. This is all well known. Did you have a point?

[quote]I suspect there are an increasing number of asylum claims, as a result of the illegal immigration crackdowns

But you've done no homework on this and bring nothing but empty guesses to the conversation. So why, exactly, should we take you seriously?

[quote] We don't really give a shit. You have been repeatedly posting ignorant drivel, even to the point of ignoring very clear answers to your questions. As to the root cause of that drivel, nobody here cares.

And your response is more ignorant drivel.

[quote] When they're turned down, they are returned to their home country. I don't think anyone on this thread is arguing for that to change.

More drivel.

[quote] We don't just tell them, we fly them out. This is all well known. Did you have a point?

And even MORE drivel.

[quote] But you've done no homework on this and bring nothing but empty guesses to the conversation. So why, exactly, should we take you seriously?

And now do you see how annoying your "quote drivel" style is?

No, R73, because unlike your post, my responses contained content. Basically, all you've got is, "I know you are but what am I," which is childish and, well, basically ignorant drivel. Thank you for the demonstration.

[quote] No, [R73], because unlike your post, my responses contained content. Basically, all you've got is, "I know you are but what am I," which is childish and, well, basically ignorant drivel. Thank you for the demonstration.

More drivel.