Hello and thank you for being a DL contributor. We are changing the login scheme for contributors for simpler login and to better support using multiple devices. Please click here to update your account with a username and password.

Hello. Some features on this site require registration. Please click here to register for free.

Hello and thank you for registering. Please complete the process by verifying your email address. If you can't find the email you can resend it here.

Hello. Some features on this site require a subscription. Please click here to get full access and no ads for $1.99 or less per month.

The Extinction of Gay Identity

Mart Crowley, the author of the groundbreaking gay play “The Boys in the Band,” lives in a Manhattan apartment building that he used to visit frequently, for parties, in the late 1960s, when “Boys” had its theatrical debut. It’s on East 54th Street, No. 405, and its nickname, he told me, used to be “four of five,” because that was supposedly the ratio of gay residents.

That is not the ratio now. “It’s all yuppies and kids in strollers and all of that — and a few old codgers,” Crowley, 82, said over a recent lunch. The gays have scattered, not just from that building but from others, and we’ve distributed ourselves throughout the city — and throughout society. Gay sanctuaries are vanishing.

Is that true of gay culture and gay identity, too? I increasingly get the sense that gayness itself has scattered, becoming something more various and harder to define. “Gay” tells you about a person’s lusts and loves, but it used to tell you more — about his or her boldness, irreverence, independence. It connoted a particular journey and pronounced struggle, and had its own soundtrack, sartorial flourishes and short list of celebrity icons. Not so anymore.

These thoughts came to mind as “Boys” comes back into view. For its 50th anniversary, it’s getting its first-ever Broadway production, with an all-gay, all-star cast including Jim Parsons, Matt Bomer and Zachary Quinto. Previews begin Monday; the show opens May 31. I’ll be fascinated to see what audiences make of this campy, catty portrait of a group of gay men who talk in code, traffic in secrecy and have carved out something separate that is not exactly peace.

The play is a postcard from an era that we have thankfully moved past, a point of reference for our hard-won success over the last half-century and our arrival in an infinitely better place. But it’s also a reminder of a glue that has gone missing among many gay men. Among many lesbians, too, though for them the lingo was different, as were the wardrobe, songs and patron saints. We were tribes in a way that we no longer are, with rituals that we no longer have, and with a shared story.

What’s that story now, and what qualifies as a gay play, if such a thing still exists? Jesse Green, one of The Times’s theater critics, wrestled elegantly with that question in T magazine in February, noting that for him, the gay theatrical canon — or, rather, the gay male theatrical canon — ends in 1993, with Tony Kushner’s “Angels in America.” That play followed “The Normal Heart,” “Torch Song Trilogy” and, decades earlier, “Boys.” All were born of the bigotry that gays endured and the grace that they forged in the face of it. The plays since, according to Green, are “grayer, more tasteful.”

“Sometimes, to judge from what’s onstage, I have to conclude that Crate & Barrel is sponsoring the new gay agenda,” Green writes, adding that he no longer hears “a gay voice,” which he defines as “quick-witted, protean, emotional.”

That voice rings loud and clear in “Boys,” which debuted in 1968 and went on to become a movie in 1970. It captures the flair for melodrama, appetite for mischief and exaggerated sense of humor — alternately self-lacerating and self-lionizing — that constituted a gay armor, worn because we lived in a sort of exile. I donned it myself in the 1980s, from my late teens through my mid-20s, as I took the temperature of the country around me, wondering exactly how cold to me it would be.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 448June 24, 2021 9:13 PM

To illustrate what America was like when Crowley wrote “Boys,” he recalled a screenplay that he also worked on in the late 1960s. It was an adaptation of the novel “Cassandra at the Wedding,” about identical twins — one straight, one lesbian — and the friction between them when the straight one is about to be married. Darryl Zanuck flirted with producing it, his interest piqued by the actress slated to play both twins.

“He hated the script, but because Natalie Wood was attached, he kept going along with it,” Crowley said. “I’d constantly get memos from him: ‘Too many dyke-isms! Cut the dyke-isms!’ He finally canceled.” Crowley said that if someone had told him then that the United States Supreme Court would someday legalize same-sex marriage, he would have responded, “That’s rather insane.” It happened in 2015. But there had been enough progress toward the acceptance and integration of gays by 2005 that Andrew Sullivan wrote an essay in The New Republic titled “The End of Gay Culture,” which he imagined would “expand into such a diverse set of subcultures that ‘gayness’ alone will cease to tell you very much about any individual.” We’re there.

Gays aren’t yet on an equal legal footing with straight people. We’re frequently derided (I’m looking at you, Mike Pompeo) and assaulted. How gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender people are treated hinges on where we live, what color we are, how much money we have and whom we work for. As a gay white man employed by a progressive-minded company in New York City, I’m ridiculously lucky. I’m aware that too much of the past conversation and art about gayness focused on and was dominated by people like me. (Among the nine men in “Boys,” only one is black.) And I’m glad to witness the spread of a more diverse vocabulary that pays important heed to the distinctions between us. But while L.G.B.T. spells out those differences, it also mashes everything together in a manner that deprives some of the consonants of their particular history and legacy. So does the catchall “queer.” Bonnie Morris, a women’s studies professor who wrote the 2016 book “The Disappearing L: Erasure of Lesbian Spaces and Culture,” pointed out that the designation lesbian is viewed by many queers as too restrictive. There have been “a lot of attacks on lesbians as vagina fetishists,” she said.

“‘Queer’ includes everybody,” she told me, “but it sure doesn’t specify where you’re coming from, what your experience is.” When Morris, 56, came out, in 1980, “lesbian” did have discrete, distinctive associations, and it mapped out physical territory that is increasingly difficult to find. “Bars are disappearing,” she said. “Bookstores are disappearing. Women’s centers are disappearing.”

I’m 53, I came out a few years later than she did, and I remember that simply telling someone that I was gay made me interesting at a time when most gay people weren’t forthcoming about that. I remember that visiting a gay bar or resort had an electric charge, because I was traversing forbidden ground. No matter how open I was about it, being gay felt a bit like belonging to a secret society.

But we didn’t want to be consigned to the margins and forced into hiding. For our safety and survival, we couldn’t afford to be. So we fought for the visibility that we cherish today. Along the way, the clubhouse was shuttered, the special knock was abandoned, and a certain spirit went away. When a culture is shaped by fear and discrimination and they fade, so does the culture.

“Everything costs something,” Crowley told me. “Gay culture is so diffuse now, where it was once so cloistered and clandestine. It was like our own world — the world was inside out.”

“I wouldn’t trade any of the progress,” I said to him. “And yet.”

“And yet,” he agreed. But, he added, with no equivocation, “You wouldn’t want that world back.”

“Boys in the Band” makes that clear, while also making sure that a lost world is remembered.

by Anonymousreply 1April 29, 2018 2:57 AM

Who do I have to fuck to get a response around here?!

by Anonymousreply 2April 29, 2018 3:01 AM

Yes, there’s a gay sensibility that is gone.

Even worse, it seems the new thing is being “sexually fluid.” In 10 years, I imagine gay men will be accused of being narrow-minded and misogynistic for not being open to sex with women.

by Anonymousreply 3April 29, 2018 3:13 AM

You have an odd imagination.

by Anonymousreply 4April 29, 2018 3:17 AM

OK OP - We’re being [italic]homo[/italic]genized

by Anonymousreply 5April 29, 2018 3:28 AM

Gay still means effeminate and attracted to men, just as it always did.

by Anonymousreply 6April 29, 2018 3:31 AM

Okey

by Anonymousreply 7April 29, 2018 3:53 AM

I thought assimilation was the whole point?

by Anonymousreply 8April 29, 2018 3:58 AM

There always is a trade-off of some sort...

by Anonymousreply 9April 29, 2018 4:21 AM

....

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 10April 29, 2018 4:46 AM

I just recalled that part of gay identity was to share your coming out story with the gays you met. Never really happens anymore. I don't know if it is because I am older or the stories don't really matter anymore. There was something tribal, a share rite of passage that perhaps doesn't have the same gravitas anymore.

by Anonymousreply 11April 29, 2018 4:50 AM

Gay is dead, assimilated into the het mainstream, reduced to the subset het adjacent. In obtaining the 2.3 children and white picket fence in the 'burbs, gay culture and opportunities for its uniqueness have been made irrelevant and lost.

by Anonymousreply 12April 29, 2018 4:54 AM

I think the "queer" label does suit ones longing for "otherness" and being ostracized.

by Anonymousreply 13April 29, 2018 4:56 AM

I'm 31. I came out at 15 in 2003. I was fortunate not to lose any family or friends when I came out and no one was all that surprised. I expected a hurricane, but it was just a rainy day.

I began to openly date boys, even bring them home to meet the parents. Most people I interacted with didn't bat an eye when I said I was gay (although my brand loyalty to Express and heavy use of lip gloss was an easy tell), and I grew up in a working class town outside of Philly.

I was lucky to have those circumstances and easy path. My teen years were pretty normal, and so I never felt the need to seek out gay spaces or culture. And yet, there is still some pull to have that outlaw feeling, like you're apart of some edgy group.

by Anonymousreply 14April 29, 2018 5:02 AM

It is interesting to see how Provincetown has changed over last 50 years. As a kid, the hippies arrived and as part of a Leave it to Beaver family you went to P-town and gawked I guess at the people you were seeing. Then gay culture began to take over and you began to see more outrageous people in the street and gawked more. Over time - because men being with men or women being with women has become part of our fabric the presumed outrageousness of it is gone - you don't look twice at two men holding hands. Isn't that what gay rights strived for? Love is love....

by Anonymousreply 15April 29, 2018 5:08 AM

This shit's deep. My edible just kicked in.

by Anonymousreply 16April 29, 2018 5:09 AM

Gay culture died when the gays moved to Brooklyn and started having babies.

by Anonymousreply 17April 29, 2018 5:48 AM

Hey some people want to have babies instead of edgy.

by Anonymousreply 18April 29, 2018 7:42 AM

Everything has been absorbed into straight culture now. Unfortunately, if you say you're gay, you're still "the fag" to them, even while "non-gay" men are sucking each other off in the corner.

by Anonymousreply 19April 29, 2018 7:46 AM

That's already happening to lesbians, R3.

by Anonymousreply 20April 29, 2018 9:49 AM

Hipster homophobia which told gay kids unless they were having sex with women, they were uptight prudish out of date fags. Gay is now queer and fluid. Sadly bisexual men are doing their very best to erase gay culture because they think if they do straight people will b more accepting. Internalized homophobia was sold as sexual liberation.

by Anonymousreply 21April 29, 2018 10:00 AM

Sexuality does not define your personality. I always found the whole gay culture a bit weird tbh. (Yeah I'm pretty young). Liking pussy doesn't make straight guys all similar to each other. Liking both pussy and dick doesn't make bi guys the same. So why should gay guys be similar in manners, tastes, and appearance? Weird.

by Anonymousreply 22April 29, 2018 10:06 AM

(R8) Assimilation has killed the gay identity. Unfortunately, and I know it's not "politicly correct", gay culture was at the summum when it was subversive (it's obvious with writers).

by Anonymousreply 23April 29, 2018 10:09 AM

R21 Maybe because a lot of gay and bi guys actually don't fit that image and don't wish to live the lifestyle? So they just want to be themselves.

by Anonymousreply 24April 29, 2018 10:09 AM

Gay men required to have sex with women to fit in is hardly being themselves. But I agree that simply being attracted to a man doesn't mean a person has to act a certain way.

I often wonder is being stereotypical gay an assimilation into gay culture itself.As much as I think straight men have to conform to straight culture. I swear half the men that sit and watch sports are probably conforming; had they been allowed to grow up without conform to a sexuality norm gay or straight, I think a lot of straight men would be a little more fem and a lot of gay men would be a little for masc.

by Anonymousreply 25April 29, 2018 12:09 PM

R3 Because hard sexual borders are part of the defined identity. Straights were afraid to seem gay. Gays wanted their own thing that had nothing to do with straights. Assimilation brings a more fluid type of sexuality with it. Where you are just attracted to whoever you like.

by Anonymousreply 26April 29, 2018 12:22 PM

Never fear; I can reverse this dire development.

by Anonymousreply 27April 29, 2018 12:23 PM

R25 It's not about required. It's about a lot of gay men who are actually bisexual (more leaning towards their own sex but bisexual nonetheless) but they have to openly reject women as sexual partners in order to fit in with the gay culture. Some of them actually repress their own bisexuality because they feel like they are "bad gays" for it. They want to belong.

It's understandable, but frustrating. Thus, when the pressure is lifted, queer and fluid begin to take center stage.

by Anonymousreply 28April 29, 2018 12:27 PM

He lost me when this 82 year old man called others “old codgers.”

by Anonymousreply 29April 29, 2018 12:41 PM

First I don't need the ruby slippers or the Meat Rack to identify as gay. I'm gay because I like having sex with men and I like falling in love with them and spending time with them even more. At a minimum there's an error - if not arrogance - to the idea that the gay identity that's 'gone' extinct is the only gay identity that did exist or can exist. It makes no more sense than to claim a blanket identity for all women, all young black men, or all the people of France. What's being mourned in article is an east or west coast experience of being gay. It's no more wholly universal than a sitcom. But the notion it could be the sole basis for another dirge for the death of gay identity shows the cluelessness and insulation of your average A Gay aspirant in New York City.

Once upon a time the universal identity for women was that whatever they did prior their role was to be 'nice' girls until they marry, have children and stay home and raise them (in the suburbs you might also include developing a mild to serious dependance on daytime drinking.) That's not the case. The identity for women has evolved. Identities always do. Can't be stopped.

by Anonymousreply 30April 29, 2018 12:42 PM

'The Boys in the Band' was staged many years before I even came out as gay (probably before I even admitted to myself I was gay). I respect what that generation lived through and experienced, honestly. I always knew there were plenty of gay guys living their lives long before me (born in 1961). But I don't know that I would have ever found a home in that kind of gay life: I don't think I would have. I've been openly gay for a long time. That sense of a 'gay identity' may be a survival tactic for many of the older gay generation, and I'd never judge, knowing that they enduring much worse than I've ever experienced. I guess I haven't needed that sense of 'gay identity' to survive, although many people of my generation certainly had to band together when we were facing the AIDs crisis. I just think we need to listen to our elders and try to learn from them, even if it's a struggle to identify with them.

by Anonymousreply 31April 29, 2018 12:42 PM

I posted yesterday about the job-popularity (or popularity, depending where you live) of drag queens. This article, while it does not mention drag queens, alludes to why "many" of today's gays or queers consider drag queens to be sad remnants of a last time and are no longer of interest to people today.

by Anonymousreply 32April 29, 2018 12:53 PM

R32 Well that is not logical. I mean men who like men, why would they need to impersonate women? If we look at it clinically.

by Anonymousreply 33April 29, 2018 1:06 PM

There are two streams: people who are still very “gay” and seek a distinct identity from the mainstream in a subculture community; and people who think their sexuality is nothing special, no distinct identity or lifestyle, and want to live mainstream, regular lives integrated with their heterosexual peers.

by Anonymousreply 34April 29, 2018 1:16 PM

r34, there's no such thing as subculture now. This is the age of social media... yesterday's hip is tomorrow's dated.

by Anonymousreply 35April 29, 2018 1:20 PM

This is a very interesting article.

I am appreciative of all the advances, too. Hell, I'm married. Grateful for that every day.

But it does feel as if today's main gay culture, such as it is, is often squished into one of two channels - RuPaul's Drag Race Fabulous, or We're Having A Baby. We used to celebrate differences and now, every year at a Pride parade, we get little pearl clutchers that sigh and say, "Do they HAVE to wear that leather harness?"

Nobody wants the only representation to be drag and leather, either. I was just hoping for a nice full continuum where a whole lot of people and points of view would be represented and understood.

by Anonymousreply 36April 29, 2018 1:26 PM

[quote] I was just hoping for a nice full continuum where a whole lot of people and points of view would be represented and understood.

You've actually got it, dear... that's why you sometimes hear opinions or points of view you don't like or agree with. But it sounds like you're waiting for a cultural unicorn that sings kum bay yah. Not gonna happen. And that's actually OK.

by Anonymousreply 37April 29, 2018 1:30 PM

R36 I don't think they are all pearl clutchers, it's just that to some it looks both dated and weirdly porn-ified.

by Anonymousreply 38April 29, 2018 1:34 PM

R37 Sorry, I think you just took what I was saying wrong. Or I was unclear.

I'd agree that we might have a continuum, or close to it, in real life. But we don't see that reflected in media representation. And I do think that a lot of the edges of the continuum are not very welcome.

Maybe "understood" was too strong a word. I don't expect everyone to agree. But we have str8 people for whom gay folks are still a mystery.

R38 I see that point, but that was the media and the life available at that time. And some people will always relate to the physical freedoms. Even today, there are still some closeted men and women for whom that kind of semi-nudity and freedom is a new thing (shocking but true).

I'm in my late 40s and am constantly surprised at how much has changed in a short time.

by Anonymousreply 39April 29, 2018 1:38 PM

AND way of proportion of the overall real world representation of “community.”

by Anonymousreply 40April 29, 2018 1:38 PM

I'm worried if there are no "gay" people, who will fight for sexual minority rights? We are the majority under the rainbow umbrella, and the ones with the clout and money.

by Anonymousreply 41April 29, 2018 1:51 PM

I'm going to get criticism for this but a big problem is that we are all lumped in together lgbtqi water it now is. We are aLloyd quite different with different needs and expectations. Gay men need gay spaces end of...this is slowly changing as straight people take over gay bars and clubs. This will not end well for us as we will have literally no spaces to ourselves. It will be like going back to the 1920s.

by Anonymousreply 42April 29, 2018 2:05 PM

This is what is happening in London now. Many gay guys think it's great so many straights are willing to come to our places...it shows how liberal they are....until we look around and there is no place for our needs anymore. Except bathouses I guess...how depressing. In some ways it's us who are destroying our own identity ourselves.

by Anonymousreply 43April 29, 2018 2:10 PM

But in a society with a low level of homophobia, what are those special needs you speak of?

by Anonymousreply 44April 29, 2018 2:16 PM

It's not all about homophobia is it? It's about a very small percentage of a population needing to meet like minded people to form relationships friendships and even have sex. We have few choices compared to straights and that is truth. We can't go to any bar or public area and chat someone up freely the way they can. But homophobia still exists too don't kid yourself

by Anonymousreply 45April 29, 2018 2:23 PM

R39 Perhaps it's just me being pretty distanced from all of it. I'm young, bisexual and European. Girls go topless on beaches all the time, no one cares. Flamboyant gays, drag queens and all that seems like it is from the ancient times. Most LGBT people I know aren't even gay or lesbian, they identify as fluid, bi, etc.

And every time people speak about gay culture or LGBT culture I feel like they are trying to put others in a neat little box made of stereotypes. Every global cultural trend is about assimilation and diversity. Why create this separate identity when you are bigger than it.

by Anonymousreply 46April 29, 2018 2:25 PM

Bathhouses are unlikely places to build lasting relationships, but you're not wrong. There are still gay sports leagues and social clubs in every city, but it's true, spaces are declining... or maybe settling to reflect the current technology. Will they ever completely go away? Probably not. '

I also agree that straights in gay spaces are... inconvenient. Management should give every straight person a little green badge to wear while present, so we don't waste time we don't want to waste!

by Anonymousreply 47April 29, 2018 2:26 PM

R47. I am not anti straight but I'm sorry some gays men are living in a fantasy if they think most straight people outside of certain cosmopolitan areas of cities would welcome a lot of gays kissing or showing affection in their bars. It's all one way traffic.

by Anonymousreply 48April 29, 2018 2:33 PM

[quote]He lost me when this 82 year old man called others “old codgers.”

It sounds like you get lost easily. He obviously would include himself in that group. Mart is nothing if not self-aware.

by Anonymousreply 49April 29, 2018 2:36 PM

R46 If you are bi then you will always have more choice and opportunity than us gays. I'm sorry if you can't understand this. You think because it's 2018 and everyone....on paper. ...is liberal and accepting when they aren't. Some people don't get that with 'assimilation' can come invisibility. Unless you think we should go to straight bars and make passes at men who may be straight? I wonder what the reaction would be?

by Anonymousreply 50April 29, 2018 2:40 PM

R46. You are bi please don't pretend to know how gays men feel. We are a very small minority that is often derided. You can get married have kids ( the conventional way) and be accepted. Maybe for you assimilation is great as you have nothing to lose...you can get sex and relationships much easier.

by Anonymousreply 51April 29, 2018 2:49 PM

R50 I don't have a choice who I get attracted to on a real life basis. You could put fifty women and fifty men in a room and I might find only one man attractive. Or one woman. Or none. If I fall in love with a man, my sexuality will give me no advantages, because everyone treats us the same as a gay couple.

Anyway, of course, people aren't wholly accepting yet. But it's like with immigrants. If they move to my country and then refuse to assimilate, then I don't really feel like welcoming them. Why come here if you don't want or like anything of ours, if you still want to be this closed-off group and reject us and do things only in your own way? People dislike that. Segregation has never led to acceptance. Diversity makes people interesting, but otherness makes them distant.

But what's wrong with invisibility? I think there shouldn't be straight bars, just like there shouldn't be gay bars. Just bars for everyone. Where you can meet anyone you want. I don't ask if a guy I like is straight or not, I'm just being friendly and if he likes me back, we'll end up talking about it. Sometimes it turns out we can only be friends. Sometimes we are both non-straight and yet we can only be friends because one of us doesn't want the other one sexually. It's normal. Sometimes I make a pass at a girl and she doesn't want me as well. Sometimes she makes a pass at me but I don't find her sexually attractive. It's not a question of sexuality at all, it's a question of mutual attraction. Fate if you wish.

by Anonymousreply 52April 29, 2018 2:51 PM

So assimilation basically means uniformity? ? How you gona force straight people to have gay sex? Or is it just gays who have to be 'fluid'?

by Anonymousreply 53April 29, 2018 2:52 PM

R53 In a world where having same sex attraction is okay, everyone will just naturally hook up with whoever they like. It's freedom. If it's okay to drink coffee and it's okay to drink tea, you don't have to be forced to make a choice. You just feel like having a cappucino today. Or some strong Ceylon blend. Whatever you feel like.

by Anonymousreply 54April 29, 2018 2:54 PM

R52 you are a fantasist. One of those bisexual/ pan people who think people should be attracted to people not gender. I'm sorry it may be that way for you but for many it isn't like that.

by Anonymousreply 55April 29, 2018 2:55 PM

R51 But you like who you like. You can't predict it. You can tell yourself, okay I'll only date women from now on but what if you meet a really hot guy you like more than all other girls? If it's only about casual sex, yeah, it's kind of easier, if you are attractive, because you meet a lot of straight/bi/fluid girls everywhere you go. But that gets boring, be it sex with men or women. It's barely more than masturbation. If it is about actual emotions and relationships, there are never any guarantees.

by Anonymousreply 56April 29, 2018 3:03 PM

Labels are bullshit. All that matters is you and how you see yourself. The moment you try to explain yourself to others, like that's the most important thing in life, that's when the problems start.

Be you and do your thing and let others be themselves and do their thing. That would make the world a much, much better place.

But of course some people prefer to pick up silly fights like gay vs. queer and shriek about how words hurt and how other people's opinions destroy their gay safe spaces. Because life must be about drama and getting into other people's business to establish who's superior and who's inferior and how important it is to hold on to the current status quo because letting go will bring total chaos where,say, gay marriage will lead to pet owners marrying their pets!

by Anonymousreply 57April 29, 2018 3:12 PM

R55 People are attracted to whoever they are attracted to, I just think making sex (as in biological sex) a defining part of it is pointless. You'll never be attracted equally to every person of whatever sex anyway. It will be about an individual. So why make a big deal out of it now when the sociaty is becoming more accepting?

by Anonymousreply 58April 29, 2018 3:17 PM

“Blackish”is a good example of what happens with assimilation. We’ll never all be the same and there is a gay culture (ex, camp) - so there will be a blending of historical gay culture with mainstream. But a flaming femme queen will have an experience of the world that is different than the “mainstream” straight guy no matter how accepting and inclusive the mainstream culture becomes. So, yes, there will always be gay identity.

by Anonymousreply 59April 29, 2018 3:22 PM

Gay has only meant effeminate” to bigots, r6.

by Anonymousreply 60April 29, 2018 3:22 PM

[quote] I just recalled that part of gay identity was to share your coming out story with the gays you met.

It was???

by Anonymousreply 61April 29, 2018 3:24 PM

R59 The question is. is this flaming queen a flaming queen exactly because he is gay--or because that's simply his personality? He could be straight and flaming, bi and flaming, asexual and flaming, etc?

by Anonymousreply 62April 29, 2018 3:25 PM

Drag queens are as old as the human race, r32.

They’ve been around since before history was recorded, everywhere in the world, so they’re never going away.

You would have to force everyone in the human race to give up gender, and they can’t even force everyone to be straight and gender conformist.

So lighten up and enjoy Jackie Beat’s next comedy set. They’re fun.

by Anonymousreply 63April 29, 2018 3:28 PM

Dear r33,

BECAUSE MOST MEN ARE ATTRACTED TO THE FEMININE ESSENCE.

I guarantee you, trannies pull a LOT of hot, straight dick because they conform to what most men want to stick their cocks in.

I can tell they pull in more dick than your inexperienced ass.

by Anonymousreply 64April 29, 2018 3:31 PM

So much naivetype in this thread about a society where everyone is fluid and no one bats an eye if your into the same set or come onto men who prefer women. Batshitcrazy that world will never exist.

by Anonymousreply 65April 29, 2018 3:33 PM

Yeah, nobody cares about Drag Queens anymore. That's why Rupaul's Drag Race was canceled after its one and only season.

by Anonymousreply 66April 29, 2018 3:33 PM

I think of "gay culture" as being artistically inclined: knowledge and appreciation of classical music and opera, the visual arts, dance, antiques, good literature.

by Anonymousreply 67April 29, 2018 3:42 PM

^ so that's "inclusive".

by Anonymousreply 68April 29, 2018 3:43 PM

This.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 69April 29, 2018 3:44 PM

What’s wrong, r52, is that nobody knows who is who, people are there to flirt, but their sexualities are NOT all compatible.

And homophobia/straight ignorance wins the majority.

I think every minority group needs a time and place to be with their own kind to flourish. The majority’s already flourishing — now overflourishing.

And NO, straight people are NOT mostly polite about rejecting LGBTs who hit on them.

by Anonymousreply 70April 29, 2018 3:49 PM

Gay identity is not 'culture' it is men who are only attracted to other men. It sounds like some on the left are trying to irradicate this and force us to be "fluid" but I ask again...are they going to force straights to do the same? I doubt it

by Anonymousreply 71April 29, 2018 3:49 PM

Thank you R70. Finally someone who sees what I'm saying. Most people on here are fantasists.

by Anonymousreply 72April 29, 2018 3:51 PM

There is no "gay identity" you choose to have gay experiences because you like dick so much because you were born that way.

Appreciating classical music and opera, the visual arts, dance, antiques, good literature, etc. doesn't make you gay. Being a guy and having sex with other guys, and loving so much you never ever want to get near a woman's pussy, that makes you gay even when you have to scrub yourself clean and cry in the shower afterwards.

by Anonymousreply 73April 29, 2018 3:52 PM

R64 But not gay men.

by Anonymousreply 74April 29, 2018 3:54 PM

R57 has no grasp of the problems.

The internet killed gay spaces. Homophobia still rages across most America outside the coastal and class bubbles.

“Assimilation” means a lot of confusion and inabilty to find people like you that you NEED.

Grindr means there’s no gay socialization anymore — or having to see / contend with EVERYTHING that’s truly out there. NO SHARED EXPERIENCES or solid friendships when sexuality is an area where you can only get true support and guidance from other queers.

by Anonymousreply 75April 29, 2018 3:57 PM

R70 But my sexuality is not at all compatible with anyone who isn't sexually attractive to me. Even though I'm in theory can be attracted to both sexes. Yet the absolute majority of people I meet have zero chance to become my sexual partners. I suppose it's the same for them. Your sex doesn't make us automatically compatible even if I'm generally attracted to it. So what's the big difference, assuming the homophobia levels are low, so people treat everyone normally?

by Anonymousreply 76April 29, 2018 4:00 PM

With gay marriage and the general acceptance of gays in society, young gays especially don’t believe they need to be in gay-only groups with their own culture.

Every minority group that gets acceptance into the general culture tends to lose parts of its culture—Italians, Irish, Jews etc

by Anonymousreply 77April 29, 2018 4:00 PM

R71 Why do you see it as being forced instead of being granted extra choice?

by Anonymousreply 78April 29, 2018 4:05 PM

[quote] The internet killed gay spaces.

Social life moved from real life to social media. Acceptance killed gay spaces in so called coastal and class bubbles. And if gay spaces made money, outside those so called coast and class bubbles, they would be in everyone's mind because of being so popular.

[quote] Homophobia still rages across most America outside the coastal and class bubbles.

Haters hate. That's their problem. Why should gay men make it their problem and beg them to like them and promise to do whatever it takes so the haters will hate them no more?

[quote] “Assimilation” means a lot of confusion and inabilty to find people like you that you NEED.

Assimilation is about acceptance and the freedom to find like-minded people in a friendly, accepting, and nurturing enviroment.

[quote] Grindr means there’s no gay socialization anymore — or having to see / contend with EVERYTHING that’s truly out there. NO SHARED EXPERIENCES or solid friendships when sexuality is an area where you can only get true support and guidance from other queers.

Social media can accomplish that. Pride parades can accomplish that, volunteering at local LGBT shelters and other institutions can accomplish that, getting involved in politics by supporting politiitans who are LGBT allies can accomplish that ... do I need to go on?

by Anonymousreply 79April 29, 2018 4:15 PM

It's his personality, r62.

But when exposed to and surrounded by other, flaming queens, queening out becomes more encouraged. So a culture forms that repeats/spreads/expands those mannerisms.

I think it can be beautiful and/ or funny. It can also be cunty-douchey. But it shouldn't be a problem for anyone and it's a big problem for most.

by Anonymousreply 80April 29, 2018 4:28 PM

People can connect with each other through all kinds of things. Common interests, common beliefs, common problems, common fears, common addictions, common sexual interests, common fears, etc.

The notion that you need a special place to get people together with that particular common interest first is ridiculous. Social media can make such connections, for example.

by Anonymousreply 81April 29, 2018 4:29 PM

When you're feeling nostalgic about a Gay identity, have a look at The Boys in the Band -- as much as you can stand -- and VIOLA, the bounce in your flounce is restored. These are the best of times.

by Anonymousreply 82April 29, 2018 4:30 PM

Dear r73, you just described a "gay identity" and proved it exists.

Homosexual relations and orientation are substantially different from heterosexuality. It may not be anyone's choice, but it's different than others. There is a true and substantial difference in what people do and what they need, and it will always be identified.

Denying there's no difference between gays and straights is not going to get you anywhere. It's not true.

by Anonymousreply 83April 29, 2018 4:35 PM

Most drag queens are gay men, r74.

by Anonymousreply 84April 29, 2018 4:37 PM

[quote]And NO, straight people are NOT mostly polite about rejecting LGBTs who hit on them.

In fact, we saw this week that LGBT people can be killed for making a pass at a straight person -- and the murderer won't be sent to prison.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 85April 29, 2018 4:43 PM

[quote] Homosexual relations and orientation are substantially different from heterosexuality.

Sure, on a shallow surface level.

Ever heard the slogan "Love is Love"? On an emotional level it doesn't matter whether the couple is straight or gay. It's love.

Ever head the term "It's just sex"? On an emotional level it doesn't matter who you are having sex with. The emotional pleasure is the same.

What makes it different? Labels.

by Anonymousreply 86April 29, 2018 4:44 PM

R83 I bet you work from a stereotype of what a hetero relationship is. Which is no closer to reality than a flaming queen to an average gay.

by Anonymousreply 87April 29, 2018 4:45 PM

R83 Also, then what does that make me, a bisexual who has never really felt a difference? Boys, girls, the shape of their genitalia does not make them who they are.

by Anonymousreply 88April 29, 2018 4:46 PM

Most people know exactly what they want, r76, and it's absolutely dependent on gender. They're repulsed when the gender they're not interested in approaches them.

So throwing everyone together is just a hassle of trying to identify what potential partners want. Gay bars vs. straight bars sorts peoples' interests efficiently, whereas wading through everyone is just more of a chore. Being bi just means that you can enter either type of bar and not piss anyone off.

And you CAN'T assume homophobia is at a low-level, ESPECIALLY when dating/looking for romance, BECAUSE IT'S NOT. The office of the New York Times might be polite to gays and bisexuals, but most people are extremely homophobic, hateful and they flip out if the gender they don't want hits on them.

by Anonymousreply 89April 29, 2018 4:47 PM

[quote] On an emotional level it doesn't matter who you are having sex with.

Sorry, I worded that wrong. What I meant is that - on an emotional level - it doesn't matter if couples have straight or gay sex (and like it).

by Anonymousreply 90April 29, 2018 4:48 PM

Who is the tiresome Bisexual poster on this thread who keeps spouting some kind of pansexual ideology that is not grounded in reality? In his perfect world only Bi people would prosper sexually. ...totally gay or straight people would be completely marginalised.

by Anonymousreply 91April 29, 2018 4:54 PM

R89 Well, in my experience people mostly get aggressive when someone they don't find attractive is actively hitting on them and can't seem to catch a hint. Because it's a hassle to reject someone. People don't like rejecting other people, they get frustrated, and when the person is making it harder, they get more frustrated.

And I wouldn't be so sure that everyone knows it, self-repressed sexuality is still a thing, they say. Perhaps these people who feel repulsed are actually secretly attracted to that sex/gender, and the internal conflict causes their reaction to be so intense and irrational.

by Anonymousreply 92April 29, 2018 4:54 PM

[quote] So throwing everyone together is just a hassle of trying to identify what potential partners want. Gay bars vs. straight bars sorts peoples' interests efficiently, whereas wading through everyone is just more of a chore.

If it is SUCH. A. CHORE, why the fuck don't you look on Grindr for hook-ups? Is that also not easy enough for you? Are you one of these incel losers who are angry that the world conspires against them preventing them to get laid?

by Anonymousreply 93April 29, 2018 4:54 PM

R91 Why marginalised if it's a free buffet type of thing?

by Anonymousreply 94April 29, 2018 4:57 PM

People will find other ways to self-segregate. You can't force yourself on other people.

by Anonymousreply 95April 29, 2018 4:57 PM

If you can't deal with rejection (gay or straight) you shouldn't hit on people. Is that too difficult to understand?

It's nobody's duty to make you feel better about yourself (for free).

by Anonymousreply 96April 29, 2018 4:58 PM

OK R94 how would we get to this state? A LOT of people are drawn to one gender over another. That is not wrong it's just nature.

by Anonymousreply 97April 29, 2018 5:00 PM

I'm talking to the crazy Bisexual....do you think everyone should be bi in relationships....should we do away with them entirely

by Anonymousreply 98April 29, 2018 5:02 PM

[quote] So much naivetype in this thread

Oh, [italic]dear.[/italic]

by Anonymousreply 99April 29, 2018 5:03 PM

It's a word! A new word!

by Anonymousreply 100April 29, 2018 5:04 PM

[quote]Assimilation is about acceptance and the freedom to find like-minded people in a friendly, accepting, and nurturing enviroment.

Wrong. r79. Assimilation is about conformity. You're describing multiculturalism, which people should have in polite society and profession, but they can't all have in the bedroom.

[quote]Social media can accomplish {socialization}. Pride parades can accomplish that, volunteering at local LGBT shelters and other institutions can accomplish that, getting involved in politics by supporting politiitans who are LGBT allies can accomplish that ... do I need to go on?

You can go on all day, if you like, but Pride only comes once a year and it won't change the fact that most LGBTs ARE NOT volunteering, supporting shelters or politicians THE WAY THEY USED TO SUPPORT GAY BARS and SOCIAL CLUBS.

They used to need and pay for clubs/cruising every week, at least, and meet face-to-face and socialize with people, even if they didn't want to fuck them.

Furthermore, social media relationships are FALSE and SHALLOW. Today, people socialize with long-distance pen pals and even cam lovers -- but who has your back IN REAL LIFE when you really need it?

Who's there to do REAL-LIFE FAVORS and support you IN YOUR OWN TOWN? If you get fired from your job, lose your house, get injured, get gay-bashed and attacked on the street, need medical attention — or similar happens to your Facebook friend in Argentina -- WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

Nothing. Everybody -- even straight people -- need friends in real life who provide substantive support and experiences, and some of those people HAVE to be queer if you're queer yourself and you want any chance of health.

by Anonymousreply 101April 29, 2018 5:07 PM

Now we have artificial insemination why don't we force everyone to be gays? ? People of the same gender are far more suited to each other anyway. I mean why not.....that would be great.

by Anonymousreply 102April 29, 2018 5:08 PM

R97 I don't see where the problem is. You like men, fine. You like women, fine. You like both, also fine. You can like anything you want without needing to be separated from others. Just like you can go to an ice cream place and order chocolate or vanilla or strawberry. You don't need a separate ice cream place for every flavor.

by Anonymousreply 103April 29, 2018 5:11 PM

R103 why bother going to the multi-flavor ice cream place when you know you only like vanilla?

by Anonymousreply 104April 29, 2018 5:14 PM

R103. Not all discrimination is bad. We don't want to be separate just have our own places to be ourselves. Sorry but are you a flicking troll?

by Anonymousreply 105April 29, 2018 5:15 PM

R85, that's 'allegedly' for making a pass. No one really knows that happened there.

I came out late, but I'm old. I never got to experience the culture from the marginalized view of it because I was too much of a coward to identify with the fringe. It was after the violence of so many relationship attempts with men that I understood that who I was intimidated and upset them. My family likes to label me as a bisexual because I was married twice and had children. I wish I had had the courage to be who I was when I was a young woman. I'd be a lot happier and probably a lot richer now.

I'm a lesbian, and I'm proud of that. No matter how it appears to anyone else, I know what I am. You can't extinguish that.

by Anonymousreply 106April 29, 2018 5:16 PM

Dear r81, none of that's real.

And around straight people, you'll always be serving their interests, censoring yourself and never fully free to express yourself or get what you really want -- if you're a typical gay or lesbian. You'll be lonely to a degree and outnumbered everywhere you go in ACTUAL REALITY.

There's safety, comfort, affirmation and security in numbers that gays aren't getting as much anymore.

Not to mention how FALSE and MISLEADING most people's social media profiles are.

by Anonymousreply 107April 29, 2018 5:16 PM

Is it REDUNDANT to point OUT that R101 has STATED her BOUNDARIES?

by Anonymousreply 108April 29, 2018 5:17 PM

R98 I think people should stop wearing the sex of their preferred partners on their sleeve as if it's a part of their personality and makes them different from others. It's just one flavor out of many. Assimilation. That's actually one of the roots of homophobia, this old idea that LGBT people are not like other people, that they are fundamentally different. Now queers themselves are trying to support it?

R105 But in a society with no homophobia what would you need separate places for?

by Anonymousreply 109April 29, 2018 5:18 PM

R104 Because you never know, you might see ginger peach and want to try it? Because it's fun to meet different people? Because it's easier to visit a nice place on the next street than to drive for an hour to get into a vanilla-only one that serves the same ice cream brand anyway?

by Anonymousreply 110April 29, 2018 5:21 PM

I really miss having a place to go. I came out late and watched all the lesbian bars and clubs disappear. I'm alone, by choice, but when I didn't want to be it was very difficult to find common ground. I had a friend try to set me up with the 'town lesbian' and I had to stop myself from punching him for using that terminology. I strongly support LGBTQ shelters and programs for gay youth because I feel it's so valuable to know who you are as early as possible. The pain and anguish of a life lived in shadows is not worth it. As much as I'm happy for the assimilation of gay culture, I'm pained that the young people have to go up against so much opposition for separate space.

by Anonymousreply 111April 29, 2018 5:21 PM

R110 so you're saying that a gay guy might find he is actually attracted to women if he socializes in a bar with them?

by Anonymousreply 112April 29, 2018 5:23 PM

R110 it sounds like you think establishments should be based around the preferences of bi and trans people. But gay and straight people aren't interested in that because like bi and trans people they want what they are interested in.

by Anonymousreply 113April 29, 2018 5:25 PM

r28, there is no man anywhere that rejects his attraction to women, since heterosexuality is so rewarded and privileged in the world and homosexuality is seen as shameful and marginalized. Any man with even the slightest attraction to women will grab hold of it and hold on tight.

Last week a straight man who murdered a gay man in Texas successful won a gay panic defense and the jury gave him no jail time. Hardly any media network reported it, apart fro gay media outlets and regional Austin stations. No one cared.

by Anonymousreply 114April 29, 2018 5:28 PM

R110, yes, it is fun to meet different people. But I can do that at other locales. Classes at the local university. Maybe a book club. A coffee shop. Lots of places. It doesn't need to be at a pick-up location.

by Anonymousreply 115April 29, 2018 5:28 PM

Here, here R113. Also, to the bi troll, social media is OK as a diversion, but should never be offered as an alternative to actual face to face human connection and sociability. That is horrific. Internet dating sites are awful places...full of catfish and lunatics.

by Anonymousreply 116April 29, 2018 5:29 PM

Rofl at the “old codgers” comment from Crowley. Another deluded queen.

by Anonymousreply 117April 29, 2018 5:33 PM

R112 I have no idea. Maybe he won't. Maybe he will. I don't think it matters, that's what I've been saying from the start. Free people from the baggage linked to their sexuality, don't make it a political issue, an identity, a deeply personal thing anymore. Make it simply something akin to liking a certain flavor, and then sexuality will thrive because pure desire will rule. It won't be about who you are socially. It will be only about who you want here and now.

by Anonymousreply 118April 29, 2018 5:34 PM

[quote]It's about a lot of gay men who are actually bisexual (more leaning towards their own sex but bisexual nonetheless) but they have to openly reject women as sexual partners in order to fit in with the gay culture. Some of them actually repress their own bisexuality because they feel like they are "bad gays" for it.

And the bisexuals wonder why they get such a bad rap around here.

by Anonymousreply 119April 29, 2018 5:39 PM

R113 I'm not talking about Grindr style hey we met five minutes ago let's have sex and pretend we never met kind of thing, I'm talking about human communication. You can meet someone and enjoy talking to them over a drink (shocking I know). You might end up having sex with this person or never doing it. You might meet someone you like and then discover you dislike their sexual tastes even though their body is attractive.

R116 That wasn't me talking about social media, but anyway from the comments here isn't it what people are looking for? They want to pick a sexual partner with certain body stats while being 100% sure they won't get rejected and they will end up having sex. That's what social media and dating apps are for. Pick and choose like a fruit in a supermarket.

by Anonymousreply 120April 29, 2018 5:39 PM

r101, all you see is problems. How's that working out for you? Sorry, you can drown in your misery and problems if you want, but I will not jump right next to you and join you.

by Anonymousreply 121April 29, 2018 5:44 PM

[quote]Homosexual relations and orientation are substantially different from heterosexuality

Followed by

[Sure, on a shallow surface level.]

NO, r86, ON A SUBSTANTIAL, CRUCIAL LEVEL!! A COCK IS DIFFERENT THAN A CUNT! SO IS WHAT PEOPLE WANT TO DO WITH THEM! SO IS WHAT NATURE SAYS OTHER PEOPLE NEED TO BE HAPPY!

It doesn't fucking matter what you want most of the time! Since when does the world revolve around you?

At r57, you said, "All that matters is you and how you see yourself," AND THAT'S YOUR FATAL FLAW.

HOW OTHER PEOPLE SEE YOU MATTERS MORE.

Just because you don't mind the body a soul is attached to doesn't mean NATURE DICTATES MOST PEOPLE NEED AND WANT A PARTICULARLY GENDERED BODY. Not only to they prefer a cock over a cunt, they actually need one IN PARTICULAR, to be happy.

Why can't you get that through your thick skull?

How did you come to believe that what YOU want is all that matters? Are you a sociopath? A psychopath?

by Anonymousreply 122April 29, 2018 5:44 PM

R114 I personally saw a thread here where a man in his forties said he spent most of his life being gay but when he was in his late thirties he started having sexual fantasies about women. He tried to date one and he liked the sex but once he told her he had openly dated guys since college she ripped him a new one and dumped him. He said the whole thing was so nerve-wracking for him and he felt so awkward and vulnerable, he decided to quit the idea. He also never told any of his real life gay friends about it.

by Anonymousreply 123April 29, 2018 5:44 PM

Probably a troll.

by Anonymousreply 124April 29, 2018 5:44 PM

R118 if you like jazz you go to a jazz place. There is no "baggage". If you're a jazz enthusiast you just know what you like.

Some don't people don't know or aren't sure what they like or maybe they like everything. But other people have more specific interests. They don't need to be "freed" from anything.

by Anonymousreply 125April 29, 2018 5:45 PM

It makes you a bisexual, dumbass @ r88.

by Anonymousreply 126April 29, 2018 5:46 PM

R125 There is baggage if you insist people who aren't sure must pick one and stick to it. Or that you can't go to a jazz place unless you are a true jazz lover and proved it.

by Anonymousreply 127April 29, 2018 5:46 PM

[quote]on an emotional level - it doesn't matter if couples have straight or gay sex (and like it).

BUT WE CAN'T FUCK ON AN EMOTIONAL LEVEL! IT TAKES THE RIGHT BODY, AND YOU DON'T HAVE IT!

by Anonymousreply 128April 29, 2018 5:47 PM

R126 But if people invist a gay relationship and a straight one are very different, then sure I should have felt as if I had two very different experiences?

by Anonymousreply 129April 29, 2018 5:47 PM

The more r92 / r86 / r57 repeats my talking points, the more it reveals itself as a troll.

by Anonymousreply 130April 29, 2018 5:49 PM

I believe unhinged Matt has found this thread and is stinking it up with his ALL CAPS lunacy.

by Anonymousreply 131April 29, 2018 5:49 PM

R128 But you wouldn't fuck any random man just because he had a cock and not a pussy, right? Out of the millions of men out there, you'd probably only fuck a few hundreds or thousands. So statistically, you still wouldn't fuck 99,99% of the humankind.

by Anonymousreply 132April 29, 2018 5:49 PM

R127 I'm not insisting on that. I just don't want jazz lovers to be told that there shouldn't be jazz-only music venues.

by Anonymousreply 133April 29, 2018 5:49 PM

Yeah -- r92 is the "rational" one.

by Anonymousreply 134April 29, 2018 5:49 PM

R130 except those are 2 or 3 different people.

by Anonymousreply 135April 29, 2018 5:50 PM

Why the fuck are you in a straight bar, r93?

NOT hookups?

by Anonymousreply 136April 29, 2018 5:50 PM

I don’t mourn the “loss of gay culture” because I wasn’t much of a fan in the first place. What the author is really talking about is missing is ghettoization, where members of a group have to stick together to survive. That doesn’t work for those of us who don’t wish to conform to a group, or can’t.

The culture and community is still there for those who want it.

by Anonymousreply 137April 29, 2018 5:52 PM

BECAUSE YOU'RE CREATING TOO MUCH EXTRA, UNNECESSARY HASSLE FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, r94!

If you don't care about the body, then you can go to both types of bars. You're in the extreme minority and the mountain isn't going to come to you!

by Anonymousreply 138April 29, 2018 5:52 PM

But r123 that was a woman who attacked him not a gay man. I would never want or encourage anyone to be closeted anything. But the answer isn't to suggest gay men who don't have sex with women are outdated, repressed, prudish and deficient.

by Anonymousreply 139April 29, 2018 5:52 PM

This made me sad. I guess in a way I'm lucky. At age 47, I caught the tail end of gay culture in the '90s. I miss West Hollywood being our own little world.

by Anonymousreply 140April 29, 2018 5:54 PM

[quote] How did you come to believe that what YOU want is all that matters? Are you a sociopath? A psychopath?

Because I am a lot happier that way. I don't need other people's approval. I don't need to convince others that they are wrong. I don't need to control others and tell them how they should see me.

You can get unhinged to the point you pass out. But I prefer you don't, because your pathetic outbursts are the best proof anyone needs that your way of life is, well, really pathetic and is neither fun nor healthy in any way.

by Anonymousreply 141April 29, 2018 5:55 PM

[quote] Why the fuck are you in a straight bar, [R93]?

NOT hookups?

Wait. LOL. You complain about being rejected in a STRAIGHT bar?

by Anonymousreply 142April 29, 2018 5:57 PM

R107 What is it that you really want that you absolutely can't do around straight non-homophobic people?

by Anonymousreply 143April 29, 2018 5:58 PM

Dear r103, nobody was ever "separated from others" all the time -- including straights.

You use the gay space, or the black space, or the Jewish space, or the Mexican space, when you need it and integrate EVERYWHERE ELSE MOST OF THE TIME, where those "buffet" opportunities happen plenty enough!

I understand that YOU don't need a particular body yourself, but how stupid or sociopathic are you not to notice that the VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WANT and NEED A PARTICULAR GENDER BODY?

by Anonymousreply 144April 29, 2018 5:59 PM

R133 I don't think places specifically for lovers of something will ever go away. But they "don't have to be" the only types of places. Going back to the earlier comparison, if I feel like having tea, I don't want to be forced to seek out one of the few places that offer it exclusively because it's so different it can't be served in a regular place. I want to walk into any old place and order it there because it has just as much right to be there as others.

by Anonymousreply 145April 29, 2018 6:04 PM

I'm with R144. These pansexuals are so fascistic in their views on human sexuality.

by Anonymousreply 146April 29, 2018 6:04 PM

R11 So true. I went to the March on Washington in the early 90s and we were all in our 20s and the camaraderie was so good. Walking around DC there was that sense of belonging with the rest of the tribe no matter where they came from. That unity is effectively gone now. When I left NYC in 1999, I walked through the former meatpacking district at 3 am,only to meet frat boys and their girls walking about. Far cry from the 1980s when I met this statuesque black girl in a tube dress, except dangling below the hemline was a massive dick....eyeopener for the rube I was. While the mainstreaming and acceptance of gays is to be welcomed, something good has been lost-perhaps it is the innate goodness that adversity often brings out in people,

by Anonymousreply 147April 29, 2018 6:05 PM

If you want something to stay, support it.

by Anonymousreply 148April 29, 2018 6:07 PM

R144 What keeps you from getting a certain gendered body in a mixed place?

by Anonymousreply 149April 29, 2018 6:07 PM

For r109 to not know and respect that people have true and different sexual needs means it's either a completely dumb virgin or a hardened troll.

I think it's one of the Christian conservative/ AltRight trolls who like to stir shit up and preach where they don't belong.

Notice how it spams repetitious bullshit faster than anyone can type? It's not like it's listening.

by Anonymousreply 150April 29, 2018 6:07 PM

R150 Okay my sexual need is tall, athletic, blond Scandinavian guys in their 20s with a sense of humor and also willowy fair-skinned women in their early 30s with a fun sense of adventure. When do I get my special place to serve my needs?

by Anonymousreply 151April 29, 2018 6:11 PM

The comparisons to food and drink are woefully inaccurate and kind of amusing.

If you think we're anywhere near the point where gay and straight people can mingle in the same setting, such as a bar (where alcohol is served), and pick up "what they want" without any problems, you are sadly mistaken.

by Anonymousreply 152April 29, 2018 6:11 PM

People can create their own group of friends and, as a result, their own community supporting and helping each other.

The problem is that too many people look for excuses to reject others (it's better to reject than be rejected) than to appreciate others and form a bond of friendship or any other benefitial relationship.

by Anonymousreply 153April 29, 2018 6:13 PM

R152 You say it like mixed-sexualities companies don't exist. Also , there aren't only gay and straight people in this world. Anyway, reinforcing segregation never helped anything.

by Anonymousreply 154April 29, 2018 6:15 PM

Bullshit, r118.

Nature is in charge of human sexuality, not you, and it says you're extremely different from what most others want. UNCONTROLLABLE, SEXUAL INSTINCT WILL CONTINUE TO PULL PEOPLE TOWARD PARTICULAR GENDER PARTS, no matter how you sequester people.

We already have integration IN MOST SITUATIONS, MOST OF THE TIME, and people still want unique gender parts/personality stereotypes.

THE PURPOSE OF BARS AND SOCIAL CLUBS IS SEXUAL/ROMANTIC/DATING.

by Anonymousreply 155April 29, 2018 6:16 PM

R155 So now you want separate places for personality stereotypes as well?

by Anonymousreply 156April 29, 2018 6:18 PM

LOL. Now gays and straights can't be in the same room together when there's also alcohol available? This is almost hilarious trolling.

by Anonymousreply 157April 29, 2018 6:18 PM

No, r101, I see the truth and reality, whereas "All that matters to you" is what you want and "how you see yourself," just like you said @ r57.

by Anonymousreply 158April 29, 2018 6:18 PM

No, [R121], I see the truth and reality, whereas "All that matters to you" is what you want and "how you see yourself," just like you said @ [R57].

by Anonymousreply 159April 29, 2018 6:19 PM

R149 because a mixed place will mostly be made up of straight people as statistically there are way more of them. Hard to get the gender you want if you want the same gender but most of that gender in the place want the opposite gender. Why waste time at such a place when the odds are so stacked against you?

by Anonymousreply 160April 29, 2018 6:19 PM

Yeah Divide & Conquer. Get those pesky gay allies away from those gays. Insist that straight people cannot be trusted around gays!

by Anonymousreply 161April 29, 2018 6:20 PM

You can go to a jazz bar tonight and a rock bar tomorrow, r127!

GOOD FOR YOU! MOST PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THE SAME ABILITY!

BECAUSE, NATURE!

WE DON'T GET TO CHOOSE THIS SHIT!

by Anonymousreply 162April 29, 2018 6:21 PM

Hit on a straight guy at the bar and report back to DL on the results, R157.

by Anonymousreply 163April 29, 2018 6:21 PM

R160 Those statistics are created at the time when same-sex sexuality is still being repressed.

by Anonymousreply 164April 29, 2018 6:21 PM

You DID have two, very different experiences, r129!

Consider your partners for a change!

by Anonymousreply 165April 29, 2018 6:22 PM

That doesn't mean I want or can enjoy sex with a pussy -- let alone AS MUCH.

Let alone the majority of the population, which is more rigid than me.

What a simpleton you are.

Guess who has no empathy incessantly?

Trolls. Sociopaths.

by Anonymousreply 166April 29, 2018 6:24 PM

Do you miss the GAY MALE community? Start a NEW movement!

by Anonymousreply 167April 29, 2018 6:25 PM

[quote] Hit on a straight guy at the bar and report back to DL on the results,

Why on earth would I do that in the first place? If I am at a straight bar it's very likely that I am out and about with my friends and I spend my time with them instead of trolling for cock. It's quite silly to presume that you are ENTITLED to getting what you want where-ever you are.

by Anonymousreply 168April 29, 2018 6:25 PM

That's why when I become President, I promise to create communities for homosexuals of all types, where they can be away from the general population and amongst their own kind.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 169April 29, 2018 6:26 PM

Bi guys, follow R162's advice. You don't want mixed places. You don't want potential female partners seeing you mingle with guys. Will totally kill your mojo. Having guys seeing you carrying on with women also isn't going to help your love life.

by Anonymousreply 170April 29, 2018 6:27 PM

r133 contradicting itself again.

by Anonymousreply 171April 29, 2018 6:28 PM

No, R171, it's not a contradiction. Hanging with your friends is one thing. But if you're actively trolling for sex that is another thing.

by Anonymousreply 172April 29, 2018 6:30 PM

The “gay identity” was another form of oppression. I never felt comfortable referring to men using female names and pronouns. I was not amused by drag queens and not inspired by divas. The obsession with sex and substance abuse was debasing. I always throught the goal was making a gay subculture unnecessary. A society where people were free to love whom they wanted and be treated just like everyone else.

by Anonymousreply 173April 29, 2018 6:31 PM

If you don't need to control others, r141, then why are you badmouthing gay bars?

Why have you spent this entire thread telling everyone there should only be ONE BUFFET BAR for everyone?

You've already argued that everyone should have to go to the same places.

Why are you deleting your cookies and/or posting from new accounts?

Watch the troll try to squirm out of its B.S.

by Anonymousreply 174April 29, 2018 6:36 PM

PLEASUREABLE SEX WITH A MAN, r143 dumbass!

by Anonymousreply 175April 29, 2018 6:37 PM

R170 Are we supposed to hide in a specially designed bisexual closet? Lie to guys about being gay and lie to girls about being straight? Not happening.

by Anonymousreply 176April 29, 2018 6:38 PM

It wouldn't be a problem if labels where just being used to categorize things and create some sense of order. But labels are being used to hate things and people, single them out and hate on them some more.

Haters use labels to excuse their hate (and irrational fear). Gay is not normal, YOU are not normal! My hate is valid, because God created Adam and Even Not Adam and Steve! I am right, YOU ARE WRONG! I am superior, you are inferior! I win, you lose!

by Anonymousreply 177April 29, 2018 6:38 PM

You and your interloping dick that might disgust me if I'm a lesbian, r149.

by Anonymousreply 178April 29, 2018 6:39 PM

[quote] If you don't need to control others, [R141], then why are you badmouthing gay bars?

[quote] Why have you spent this entire thread telling everyone there should only be ONE BUFFET BAR for everyone?

I never did. That's someone else making that particular claim. I never coined that one buffet bar in this discussion.

by Anonymousreply 179April 29, 2018 6:42 PM

If you're the man you originally claimed to be, r151, a gay bar helps narrow it down for the Scandinavian. A straight bar will get you closer to the woman, than the buffet table, which IS EVERYWHERE ELSE IN LIFE, MOST OF THE TIME.

You have what YOU need and abilities others don't.

by Anonymousreply 180April 29, 2018 6:43 PM

r153 is entitled to everyone else's romance again.

How he or she sees ITSELF is all that matters.

by Anonymousreply 181April 29, 2018 6:44 PM

R175 Do you usually have pleasurable sex with a man in front of all other patrons in gay places then?

by Anonymousreply 182April 29, 2018 6:44 PM

r151, open your own bar, be your best customer.

by Anonymousreply 183April 29, 2018 6:45 PM

R178 But it's your problem not mine if you are being -phobic.

by Anonymousreply 184April 29, 2018 6:45 PM

Oh that's just so sad. What he calls gay "identity" is nothing but a gay stereotype. The gays felt a need to fit the stereotype because the society at large shunned them but since most big cities couldn't care less there's more assimilation into the regular normal world. How is that a bad thing? Gays, lesbians are free to live their as they please just like any other person. YOu can totally tell the difference between the older generation lesbian/gays and the newer ones esp the millenials

by Anonymousreply 185April 29, 2018 6:47 PM

R176 do you really think you make yourself more attractive to most women by letting them see you getting romantic with a guy?

What about gay guys? Do you think canoodling with women makes you attractive to them?

So, I wasn't suggesting lying. Just that it's a turnoff for most people to see you interacting romantically with the opposite bio sex. But maybe you aren't interested in monosexuals and that doesn't matter.

by Anonymousreply 186April 29, 2018 6:47 PM

[quote] [R153] is entitled to everyone else's romance again.

[quote] How he or she sees ITSELF is all that matters.

I am tempted to accuse you of projecting if anything you write, as a reply to my comment, would make sense.

by Anonymousreply 187April 29, 2018 6:48 PM

r156, we already have them and most people don't complain or try to jam other interests down their throat.

So to speak.

It's a free country; free world. You can't force people to want you. Instead of celebrating that you have the power to visit two, different types of places, you want everyone to be sexually available to you all the time, and it's IMPOSSIBLE.

YOU'RE NOT THAT GREAT.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 188April 29, 2018 6:49 PM

Nobody ever said that, r157. I've always maintained that BISEXUAL SOCIOPATH has his "buffet space" ALMOST EVERYWHERE, ALL THE TIME.

Dating is a SORTING PROCESS.

by Anonymousreply 189April 29, 2018 6:50 PM

Yeah, some people are so vain, they think they can just grab anyone's pussy or dick and have a willing participant. And then get all angry that people reject them and they are like "but ... but, it works for Trump!".

by Anonymousreply 190April 29, 2018 6:51 PM

IF YOU LIKE JAZZ GO TO A JAZZ BAR.

by Anonymousreply 191April 29, 2018 6:53 PM

False equivalency @ r161.

Why don't you start taking away Christians from churches and force them to worship every religion at one, polycultral temple?

I. e. the Unitarians?

Why don't you start forcing all the rednecks to hang out with blacks in one place only, all the time?

If Americans are such good Christians, why are churches mostly segregated? Why don't you force every Christian in America to attend the same church, like Medieval times?

You're the Taliban, here.

by Anonymousreply 192April 29, 2018 6:53 PM

R186 I'm not interested in homophobic women and heterophobic (is that even a word?) men. If a woman is repulsed (not jealous which is cute but honestly repulsed) by the idea of me having been with a man, I'll pass.

by Anonymousreply 193April 29, 2018 6:53 PM

Same-sexuality IS STILL BEING REPRESSED, r164 you troll!

by Anonymousreply 194April 29, 2018 6:54 PM

TYPING TROLL RESPONSES FASTER THAN ANYONE WILL NEVER MAKE YOU RIGHT

by Anonymousreply 195April 29, 2018 6:55 PM

YOU CAN'T SPAM AWAY THE TRUTH, P.O.S. TROLL

by Anonymousreply 196April 29, 2018 6:55 PM

r192, what does your post have to do with r161?

by Anonymousreply 197April 29, 2018 6:55 PM

Oh-oh, Matt's mad now.

by Anonymousreply 198April 29, 2018 6:56 PM

r170 ANOTHER NON-SEQUITIR. FALSE

by Anonymousreply 199April 29, 2018 6:56 PM

I didn't say repulsed. I said turned off, R193. You know. Doing something that diminishes interest in another person. She or he would still be friends with you.

by Anonymousreply 200April 29, 2018 6:56 PM

r172 WHO ISN'T TROLLING FOR SEX IN BARS, r172?

by Anonymousreply 201April 29, 2018 6:57 PM

NO, r173, THE GOAL WAS MAKING GAY PEOPLE RESPECTED FOR A CHANGE.

ERASING GAYS IS WHAT NAZIS DO

by Anonymousreply 202April 29, 2018 6:57 PM

R201, apparently the bi guy.

by Anonymousreply 203April 29, 2018 6:58 PM

No such suggestion as r176 was ever made or necessary.

by Anonymousreply 204April 29, 2018 6:58 PM

You have to be a real sicko, r177, if you're going to change every little way the majority wants things done just for the sake of a couple who pervert the purpose.

The primary purpose of social clubs is love, and you can't change that just because you're losing an argument.

by Anonymousreply 205April 29, 2018 6:59 PM

Well, you're full of shit, r179 / r141.

You DO need other people's approval. You DO need to convince others they are wrong, when what they do is hurting yourself.

And if you didn't need to control others, you wouldn't be spamming this thread with your BULLSHIT OPINIONS.

by Anonymousreply 206April 29, 2018 7:02 PM

We gay men used to, r175!

You're in the way when people who are not sexually compatible with you are specifically looking for sex or romance, WHICH IS NOT MOST OF THE TIME.

by Anonymousreply 207April 29, 2018 7:03 PM

r206, Voicing your opinion isn't controlling other people's opinions. There is a difference.

by Anonymousreply 208April 29, 2018 7:04 PM

The era of the gay ghetto is done with. We don't have to segregate ourselves. We are everywhere!

by Anonymousreply 209April 29, 2018 7:05 PM

R200 If she finds me hot and she isn't homophobic, then seeing me flirt with guys or knowing I've been with guys should be no more different to her than if those guys were actually female. If it kills her sexual interest in me, nope, sorry, she's as homophobic as they come.

by Anonymousreply 210April 29, 2018 7:05 PM

Almost everyone IS bi-phobic, r184 and it's not their fault! It's not their conscious ability to choose.

Complain about it to nature, but don't bother other people with it.

Nobody's stopping you from getting what you want -- YOU are stopping others from getting what they want with forced mixed crowds everywhere.

by Anonymousreply 211April 29, 2018 7:05 PM

Again, not what I said or implied at all, r185.

It only means that people have shared interests, they align with stereotypes often and you have no right or ability to stop them from associating freely.

by Anonymousreply 212April 29, 2018 7:06 PM

I find the troll who randomly refers to comments and then produces a rant that doesn't have anything in common, with the comment he responds to, hilarious. Like, could you disqualify yourself even more?

by Anonymousreply 213April 29, 2018 7:07 PM

THE BI-FURIOUS TROLL NEEDS TO JUST STAY AT HOME AND MASTURBATE.

by Anonymousreply 214April 29, 2018 7:08 PM

But will you pass in a forcibly integrated, forcibly bisexual space, r193?

by Anonymousreply 215April 29, 2018 7:09 PM

R211 Do you realize you are repeating the homophobes' ideology word for word?

by Anonymousreply 216April 29, 2018 7:10 PM

No, r206, you're a control freak.

You're wrong.

Just shut up.

I'm about to stop engaging with you. Then what will you do? Except be bitter, disappointed and rejected, as usual?

by Anonymousreply 217April 29, 2018 7:10 PM

R215 What is a forcibly bisexual space? If is a space where you are free to choose your partner unrelated to their sex and gender, you can choose anyone you want. That's kind of the point.

by Anonymousreply 218April 29, 2018 7:11 PM

R218 are you totally oblivious to the wants of other people? It's not a one-way street.

by Anonymousreply 219April 29, 2018 7:12 PM

There are major differences between men and women, r210!

You're a fucking narcissistic sociopath. You're wrong and you're never going to change human nature.

by Anonymousreply 220April 29, 2018 7:12 PM

R219 Everyone in that place is free to choose, what's the problem?

by Anonymousreply 221April 29, 2018 7:13 PM

r213, you have disqualified yourself from the ability to relate to anyone except other, fascist, bisexual sociopaths.

by Anonymousreply 222April 29, 2018 7:13 PM

R220 You don't even make sense.

by Anonymousreply 223April 29, 2018 7:13 PM

[quote] Almost everyone IS bi-phobic,

*LOL* Not everybody shares your insanity. You are borderline bi polar when bisexuality gets you so riled up. Did you have some traumatic dating experience that triggered this manic obsession with bisexuality?

by Anonymousreply 224April 29, 2018 7:13 PM

False, r211.

Homophobes don't complain about their inabilities owing to gay people.

They just love to hate people who are different and try to force them to be EXACTLY like themselves.

Like you.

by Anonymousreply 225April 29, 2018 7:15 PM

R221, free to choose. Free to reject!

by Anonymousreply 226April 29, 2018 7:16 PM

Yes, r218. You have forced everybody to associate with the gender they're not interested in.

They already got exposed to all varieties of gender and sexuality IN EVERY, OTHER WALK OF LIFE, and now they need to sort with what they really need in the bedroom now.

SHOO! YOU'RE IN THE WAY!

by Anonymousreply 227April 29, 2018 7:17 PM

r223.

I know you don't make sense, but what do I do?

by Anonymousreply 228April 29, 2018 7:18 PM

Your denial of the human right to associate freely, the sexual needs of others and the SUBSTANTIAL DIFFERENCES between women and men are what riles me up, r224.

You can't erase what's been typed or spin this into something different, you worm.

by Anonymousreply 229April 29, 2018 7:20 PM

Now that I have caught up with the bisexual fascist worm, I am going to retire from the thread.

Seems like a right-wing troll again.

by Anonymousreply 230April 29, 2018 7:21 PM

Since the Left don't need gays as pawns and martyrs anymore and we don't need them, it's all about transgenders. There's a new marginalized oppressed group somewhere.

by Anonymousreply 231April 29, 2018 7:26 PM

Anyone who is NOT the Bisexual Fascist Troll, please F/F r57, r218, etc.

This is not an honest person.

by Anonymousreply 232April 29, 2018 7:27 PM

R229 The only difference is some body parts. Men and women are just people.

by Anonymousreply 233April 29, 2018 7:27 PM

Wtf is gay identity? Liking rainbows, rupauls drag race, and celebrity gossip? No thanks.

by Anonymousreply 234April 29, 2018 7:28 PM

You're so fucking masc, R234. Russell Tovey would be proud.

by Anonymousreply 235April 29, 2018 7:30 PM

Come on, guys, Crowley has a sense of humor. You know he was including himself as one of those "old codgers" since he now lives in the building too.

Hard to believe he is 82, though. He and Natalie Wood were best friends so guess that makes sense but would she be that old now too?

by Anonymousreply 236April 29, 2018 7:31 PM

By the look of this picture, it's best if people like that delight in that activity at home.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 237April 29, 2018 7:35 PM

R235 yeah so masc just because I don't care for rainbows, drag, and celebrity gossip. Since there's no gay gene you would think we're made to like the same bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 238April 29, 2018 7:36 PM

Just confirming, gay identity and homosexuality are not the same thing thus there is a difference between gay and homosexual.

Gay: a subcultural identity around homosexuality but not limited to sexual orientation. Identity born in the US nd Britain mainly.

Homosexual: a oeron attracted to the same sex

by Anonymousreply 239April 29, 2018 7:37 PM

Some dudes love dudes and some love dudes and chicks. I don't get why some on here get upset over it.

by Anonymousreply 240April 29, 2018 7:38 PM

R232 encouraging everyone to flag someone's post because you're offended or disagrees is fascist.

by Anonymousreply 241April 29, 2018 7:40 PM

Exactly, R238. I am in awe of your masc-ness.

by Anonymousreply 242April 29, 2018 7:41 PM

R231: How were they pawns and martyrs?

by Anonymousreply 243April 29, 2018 7:47 PM

You can't make everyone happy. While some gay men and women are happy to be assimilated into suburbia with home and kids, others are miserable.

The next generation probably won't even differentiate between straight/gay/bi/trans. I see it happening now - most kids and teens don't even bat an eye about that kind of stuff. However, in fly-over states, that might be an entirely different story.

by Anonymousreply 244April 29, 2018 8:01 PM

r244, I agree, because parenting has become more ... woke? Parenting is no longer about shame and control and "I know what's best for you! / be nice or Santa puts you on the naughty list!" and Sunday (bible) school.

by Anonymousreply 245April 29, 2018 8:10 PM

R244 You say it like every male-female romantic or sexual relationship is about white picket fence and kids. People want different things in life.

by Anonymousreply 246April 29, 2018 8:15 PM

Frankly, I've always disliked the caustic, over-the-top, vaguely self-loathing gay 'identity' that is the backbone of Boys In The Band. Why does there have to be a gay identity? Why can't we just be people with certain characteristics the same way that straight people have certain characteristics? I know a lot of gay people who do fit into a clichéd mold, but I know equally as many who do not. And I would say that especially among 20 somethings, it's often impossible to tell who is gay and who isn't. And frankly, I think that's a good thing and a reflection of the openness of modern society. That said, I've always admired those who cannot hide their gayness; they have the harder path in life, especially growing up, and they are extremely brave.

by Anonymousreply 247April 29, 2018 8:20 PM

This Cuts both ways. Straight people, especially straight men, have more flexibility and Freedom to be themselves than ever before . And in doing so some of us gay men have figured out that we can be friends with straight people. That they understand us and accept us and love us for Who We Are. In the younger generation of gay men have the ability to choose friends who have similar interests and similar worldviews. And that often includes straight people. I think it's a great thing

by Anonymousreply 248April 29, 2018 8:31 PM

"Bonnie Morris, a women’s studies professor who wrote the 2016 book 'The Disappearing L: Erasure of Lesbian Spaces and Culture,' pointed out that the designation lesbian is viewed by many queers as too restrictive. There have been 'a lot of attacks on lesbians as vagina fetishists,' she said."

Wow, is the sexual harassment of lesbians by trans-identified straight males that's been going on for YEARS finally being acknowledged by someone in the mainstream press? Thank you, Frank Bruni!

by Anonymousreply 249April 29, 2018 8:33 PM

R249 What's a trans identified straight male?

by Anonymousreply 250April 29, 2018 8:41 PM

I think it refers to men who "pretend" to be trans women in order to "access" women who have no interest in men (i.e. lesbians).

by Anonymousreply 251April 29, 2018 8:50 PM

R246 that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just making a point that it's a double edged sword. While many people can find happiness in that "suburbia" life, its definitely not for everyone - whether gay or straight. As we make strides, it seems like we still can't make everyone happy.

I think (hope) in the years to come, the labels of gay/straight/bi/trans will be gone. A non-issue, where people can just live their lives in peace and harmony.

Am I asking for too much?

by Anonymousreply 252April 29, 2018 8:51 PM

As a 54 yr 100% homosexual who has lived in El Lay most of my life, I can truly say "gay" sub culture is dead. Sunk like Atlantis beneath the conformity tidal wave.

by Anonymousreply 253April 29, 2018 8:54 PM

R253 I live in LA too, and I find it so sad. I was here for the last hurrah, I think, the early '90s.

While I'm happy for all the young gay kids who won't have to endure what I endured, still, I'm glad that I know why the caged bird sings.

by Anonymousreply 254April 29, 2018 10:05 PM

You are gay because you conform to some stereotypes or cliches and you are homosexual because you like the same sex.

by Anonymousreply 255April 29, 2018 10:28 PM

I love it how so Many Millennial and Gen Z bi, gay, and fluid people not only expect to live fully integrated with their hetero peers, but actually livjng as such. They don’t see themselves as remarkable, separate because they like dudes. They are mainstream

by Anonymousreply 256April 29, 2018 11:31 PM

One of the Most heartening things to see today are groups of mixed orientation dudes chillin together as buds.

by Anonymousreply 257April 29, 2018 11:38 PM

R256: How boring and sad! I'm a gay Millennial male and have no desire to be integrated.

by Anonymousreply 258April 29, 2018 11:59 PM

I hate drag queens.

by Anonymousreply 259April 30, 2018 1:31 AM

R45 you must live in a fly over state. Because in most of the cities been to, there isn't anything that straight people can do that I can't. That sounds like the Dark Ages.

by Anonymousreply 260April 30, 2018 2:30 AM

I don't think the gay millenials really care if they have "gay spaces" to hang out at. Things are changing, rapidly. You've got to face reality boys. If you're over 35 you're considered an old fart. The younger, fluid generation is taking over. And to Madison Avenue, they are the targeted demographic.

You all need to open up some Gay Senior Citizen Happy Hour bars, so you can be home, in bed watching the Golden Girls by 10 pm.

by Anonymousreply 261April 30, 2018 3:09 AM

Homosexual men have always been diverse. Why do you hold on to a forceful idea that all homosexual men share every single interest and taste with you?

by Anonymousreply 262April 30, 2018 3:50 AM

And why are older DL gay men so threatened by bi ah gay dudes who live mainstream lives integrated with their heterosexual male brethren instead of in a stereotypical subculture?

by Anonymousreply 263April 30, 2018 3:53 AM

Homophobia has just evolved, it's now being labeled a basic gay if you don't fuck women and loser fags who care so much about statues have to be in with the times.

by Anonymousreply 264April 30, 2018 4:03 AM

Haven't we moved from the original argument? The question was not if gays and straight should mingle....of course we should. The question is do gays still need places to meet and be themselves, which I firmly believe they do. Relying on online hookups and dates is not going to find you happiness. Also straight men are not as accepting as many here suggest.

by Anonymousreply 265April 30, 2018 4:31 AM

Let them exist. Don't try to reduct gay men to one thing or the other.

by Anonymousreply 266April 30, 2018 4:59 AM

it's obvious that most on this thread are city dwellers who have forgotten what it's like to be from small towns and villages.

by Anonymousreply 267April 30, 2018 5:02 AM

[quote][R25] It's not about required. It's about a lot of gay men who are actually bisexual (more leaning towards their own sex but bisexual nonetheless) but they have to openly reject women as sexual partners in order to fit in with the gay culture.

I have never met nor heard of a single person in my life who suffered from this. If you did, then you clearly lack enough self-knowledge to balance this imaginary pressure to be totally gay. I think it is something those with personality issues might believe exists. In other words, this is insane!

by Anonymousreply 268April 30, 2018 5:04 AM

"There is no such thing as society" - Margaret Thatcher

Breaking up groups is a right-wing tactic. The more "individual" we are, the weaker we are. Gay culture and identity didn't come fully formed out of the ether, it came through gay men coming together and elevating what they had in common. It will always exist. We need to fight against these narratives of individualism and assimilation, for our own sake.

by Anonymousreply 269April 30, 2018 6:29 AM

[quote]Maybe because a lot of gay and bi guys actually don't fit that image and don't wish to live the lifestyle? So they just want to be themselves.

The thing is that you can't be yourself. You try bringing up anything male related in the same context that straight/bi men bring up anything female related and you'll lose all of your friends.

by Anonymousreply 270April 30, 2018 6:33 AM

[quote]Am I asking for too much?

Sure you are.... you just want everyone to be all "omigod I'm sooooo FLUUUUIIDDDD, no label can encompass me, I'm so speciaaaalllll"

by Anonymousreply 271April 30, 2018 6:38 AM

[quote]And why are older DL gay men so threatened by bi ah gay dudes who live mainstream lives integrated with their heterosexual male brethren instead of in a stereotypical subculture?

Be honest, do your straight bros want to hear you talking about dick sucking and taking it up the ass in the middle of their talks about fucking bitches, their side hoes and baby mamas?

by Anonymousreply 272April 30, 2018 6:39 AM

Is there anything more boring than people who moan about "stereotypes"?

by Anonymousreply 273April 30, 2018 7:09 AM

Let's face it, you can't have both.

Either you're assimilated, either you're a discriminated sub-culture. You can't be both at the same time.

Full equality means assimilation, it's the same for all minorities.You can't be at the same time inside and outside the system. Black people struggle with it too. They want to be totally equal and at the same time want to be different and be seen as specific.

That's why some gays were against marriage equality cause they understood it would dissolve the gay culture into the straight one.

by Anonymousreply 274April 30, 2018 7:10 AM

All this bullshit about "I don't like labels" is killing gay culture. "I'm not gay, but instead I'm pansexual." Bullshit. You're gay. You just don't want to admit. As a result, gay culture is disappearing.

And in five years, maybe 10, you'll be gay again. You won't be pansexual. But gay culture will be gone due in large part to you not being honest with yourself from the start.

by Anonymousreply 275April 30, 2018 7:14 AM

"I don't like labels".. unless it's something like pan, mostly straight, omnifluid, etc.

Anything to avoid the dreaded "gay".

by Anonymousreply 276April 30, 2018 7:17 AM

I'm gay and I have gone to a gay club like twice in my whole life. I don't hate them, they're just not for me because my taste in music and other interests are different from what the gay scene offers.

If people need specific places for them then they will exist as long as there is the need for that.

by Anonymousreply 277April 30, 2018 9:04 AM

Some of you guys are pathetic! Do you think all straight people meet at clubs and special "meeting places" eyeroll

If we are evolving, then just roll with it. The gay sub-culture is quickly becoming a thing of the past. It's evolution. And I'm happy about it.

Have you ever thought about meeting other gay people in other places than bars? Like meet up groups. Gay beaches. Etc.

by Anonymousreply 278April 30, 2018 12:08 PM

According to young people gay is now a slur. They all prefer to use the word queer, sexually fluid or "no labels". Cis is apparently totally acceptable for them though, go figure.

by Anonymousreply 279April 30, 2018 12:10 PM

We had our time. It's their (millenials) turn now. Let them do what they need to do to feel and stay relevant.

My nieces and nephews all have gay friends they do things with - and it's a non-issue. As it should be. The young people today have a lot bigger concerns than other people's sexual orientation.

by Anonymousreply 280April 30, 2018 12:26 PM

R269: Actually, it's the far left radicals who want "diversity". Most people (if they were truly honest) would admit that they prefer to be around those like themselves.

Gay bars are not full of straight women having bachelorette parties now because of the right. It's the homophobic and politically correct far left.

If gay men are tired of losing their community, they had better get some backbone and start a new movement.

by Anonymousreply 281April 30, 2018 1:10 PM

I'm a millennial, while I'm grateful for all that you guys went through to pave the way for us I have honestly never felt the need for gay sanctuaries. My friends all accepted when I came out and I never really felt ostracized about it. I love going to gay clubs sometimes but mostly because its safe to assume I can flirt with or dance on anyone lol Other than that I enjoy just blending in with everyone. I know it's something many people didn't get to experience when coming out. My gay friends all do trips together sometimes like to P-town

by Anonymousreply 282April 30, 2018 1:40 PM

R282: What's so enjoyable about blending in with everyone?

by Anonymousreply 283April 30, 2018 2:37 PM

The Advocate's editor's response to the article, and apparently Exhibit A for Bruni's!

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 284April 30, 2018 3:27 PM

People are different. Gay identity work for some, it’s like not my thing. I’m just a dude who likes dudes, my friends know this, and we’re cool with it. We are a “squad,” bros because we mesh together as People. Race, income, status, or sexual orientation are not our main identities. We don’t focus on differences.

by Anonymousreply 285April 30, 2018 4:48 PM

R283 are you that clueless?

All these years of fighting for equality and now that we have it, you're saying "what's so special about blending?" 🙄

I'm proud of the young people today that they are able to co-mingle peacefully. I rarely hear horrible "coming out" stories, like we did back in the day. Gayness is mainstream and people are accepting.

What's wrong with blending? Or do you want to go back to living in the shadows?

Me, I love living my carefree, gay, blended life.

by Anonymousreply 286April 30, 2018 4:49 PM

Its 2018, no need for gays to to congregate anymore. The world is a lot smaller now than it used to be thanks to tech.

by Anonymousreply 287April 30, 2018 5:07 PM

Agree, R285. Well said, dude.

by Anonymousreply 288April 30, 2018 5:08 PM

Let's not be extreme or intolerat in either direction. Gay identity is wanted and Needed for some today, not so much for others. The two realities can peacefully coexist.

by Anonymousreply 289April 30, 2018 5:11 PM

R284 I think he missed the point of the piece. And he sounds super defensive

by Anonymousreply 290April 30, 2018 5:47 PM

I never thought I'd care one way or the other but, as I get older, the "gay erasure" thing really does bug me. Seems to want to wipe away years of work and progress -- from preferring to have little Johnny be a girl in a boy's body instead of a "sissy" to "gay" being a dated term in a world where everyone fucks everyone else and can get it up/fall in love with any gender.

The generations one or two ahead of me did all the hard work but it is strange to see the direction it is going in now. Gay culture is one thing, gay identity (and the politics it always entailed) is very different but neither is thriving at the moment.

by Anonymousreply 291April 30, 2018 5:53 PM

I think that those that came before us (20-33 years old), sure..they had to suffer the social stigma that was prolific-and of course just like the African Americans had to take it to the street. But, this thing had to happen. Fact is, now it is not a stigma for the most part. Partly due to the fact that it was taken to the streets, but also a lot of people evolved by way of their parents view on the world whether from the revolution or pure intellectual evolving by way of education and the like. In any case, for the elder gays that feel forgotten, that is a psychological thing. I think it has more to do with aging and feeling left behind on a lot fronts. And, again..that is psychological. IMO.

by Anonymousreply 292April 30, 2018 6:03 PM

R275, let the gay culture die. Why? Because shit...its a sex preference. That is all. People are now accepting that more and more. We don't have a "straight culture", and soon we won't have a "gay culture", and that is how the story is supposed to end. People being people fucking without judgement. Keep the "culture" and the judgement stays too.

by Anonymousreply 293April 30, 2018 6:12 PM

I'm not "gay", I'm a biped mammal with an XY chromosome of the human species who just happens to like other biped mammals with an XY chromosome.

by Anonymousreply 294April 30, 2018 6:13 PM

There's no "straight culture"? What the hell were a lot of us fleeing all these years?

Maybe it's more commonly known here as Frau Culture. But it still counts.

by Anonymousreply 295April 30, 2018 6:16 PM

During decades gay culture was supposed to be groundbreaking and underground.

Now the faces of gay culture are Colton Haynes and the Instagram whores.

Now, it sucks but being underground makes you creative cause you have something to say.

I understand the gays who regret the time where being gay was different. I doubt they regret the gay bashing and general homophobia, but playing straight with the kids, the dog and the white fence is not for them.

by Anonymousreply 296April 30, 2018 6:16 PM

R268 Yeah so I totally made up all those gays here who say they'd never a date a bisexual guy?

by Anonymousreply 297April 30, 2018 6:21 PM

Maybe a thing of the past R297 but I've never heard of it. I only really hang out with gays my own age (mid 20s) All of us identify fully as gay but I can't imagine anyone saying they wouldn't date a bi guy. All 4 of us have probably done it

by Anonymousreply 298April 30, 2018 6:23 PM

"I really want to fuck pussy but I won't fit in with or get with those hot gay guys if I do!"

by Anonymousreply 299April 30, 2018 6:23 PM

R296, or Dustin Lance Black and Tom Daley acting like gay hausfraus with that baby shower.

by Anonymousreply 300April 30, 2018 6:26 PM

R270 You mean try to discuss other men's dicks like DL likes to do? I've never once had a straight friend who talked about women porn-style anyway, so it's a moot point. I don't discuss my sexual life with my friends, either, it's my private business. We don't look at people passing by and go, hey dudebro I'd like to rip that whore open or I'd like to get my ass busted by that cock. Nope. That must be also an eldergay thing because I don't know any young (educated, intellectual) gay or bi guy who talks like that irl a lot.

by Anonymousreply 301April 30, 2018 6:26 PM

I don't think there is a gay "lifestyle" gay clubs and movies yes. But what is the gay lifestyle? I have sex with men, isn't that it?

by Anonymousreply 302April 30, 2018 6:29 PM

R275 Dude. I dated a girl about three months ago. We had a lot of sex and it was great sex. She'd also been with both men and women before so both of us were cool with each other's experience. No passionate romance but interesting conversation and good times had by all. How on earth am I gay and in self-denial and will go back to being gay in 5 years?

by Anonymousreply 303April 30, 2018 6:30 PM

You are perfect the way you are R303 I'm glad you're enjoying yourself.

I had sex with women 1.5 times but didn't enjoy it either time. The second time I couldn't stay hard. So I gave up.

by Anonymousreply 304April 30, 2018 6:32 PM

R295, no....nobody ever says or said "Hey, whats with those straights? That culture is deviant, dude." and then followed by judging, beating, conspiring against and making fucking laws against them. So. No.

by Anonymousreply 305April 30, 2018 6:35 PM

There's probably no straight culture, but I think there probably is straight male and straight female culture. Like spring break, girls gone wild, playboy. That stuff

by Anonymousreply 306April 30, 2018 6:37 PM

The problem with taking assimilation for granted is that things can just as quickly go back to the way they or worse. We've seen periods of widespread acceptance of gay people throughout history, but something always happened in those societies to tip things over the edge and then minorities become the scapegoat again. The idea that we don't need to maintain gay culture and gay identity now, and we don't need to stick together and find common spaces for our sisters, is potentially dangerous in the long run. We should at least maintain one gay bar in every major city and hide a cache of guns, knives and diamante studded fatigues in each basement in case war against the gays breaks out once more and bitches need to fight back!!!

by Anonymousreply 307April 30, 2018 6:37 PM

Seriously though if these places are dissolving then it simply means there isn't any need for it. Demand=Supply. We don't talk everything to everyone. We all have really close friends we talk about sucking dick or whatever taboo subjects regardless of sexuality. Friendships are not all about sexual talk you know. Not all gays are alike as not all straights are the same either. Pus many of those places exist online now. DL being an example of it. Change is inevitable

by Anonymousreply 308April 30, 2018 6:38 PM

R307 you're absolutely right that the pendulum switches back and forth on that one. But it's not something that happens overnight or that you can guard against. Those changes take hundreds of years. And not because gays didn't stick together but because oppressive people came into power. If your concerned, it makes more sense to try and stop that

by Anonymousreply 309April 30, 2018 6:40 PM

I feel comfortable talking about sexual experiences equally with my gay or straight friends. There are some things my straight friends just can't really understand like the need to keep clean lol

But blowjobs and most other things are relatable to anyone

by Anonymousreply 310April 30, 2018 6:41 PM

I think everybody straight, bi or gay will suffer the loss of the gay culture.

I don't see it at a progress for anyone, straight or gay.

by Anonymousreply 311April 30, 2018 6:41 PM

R298 Probably means you aren't sure? But what if you met a guy who had a girlfriend before you met and openly told you he'd dated both genders since high school? Would you date him if you liked him a lot? Not anon sex in the bushes. A relationship. Making him a part of your circle.

by Anonymousreply 312April 30, 2018 6:46 PM

I was in palm Springs recently and it really did seem like being in a museum. It seems to be the last place where an old world gay subset still exists. I couldn't get out of there quick enough. Many of us didn't spend years fighting and arguing for LGBT rights in order to be regulated space in one part of the universe.

by Anonymousreply 313April 30, 2018 6:46 PM

R304 But did you choose a girl you actually wanted? Or just some random girl to test it? I'm not telling you to try again, just saying it's super common. If I walked into a gay bar and picked up a random dude, I wouldn't even be able to get it up for him. Doesn't mean I'm straight because exactly the same would have happened with a random girl.

by Anonymousreply 314April 30, 2018 6:49 PM

Honestly, I don't really know what "gay culture is". I know that back in the day there was a lot of stigma and our predecessors fought for rights etc. But, I chill w my gay friends and straight friends at once. We all hang out and do our thing, there is really no us and them shit. And, that is pretty much how it is around my entire campus. There is not a stigma at all. Same in town.

by Anonymousreply 315April 30, 2018 6:51 PM

R312 Yes absolutely I would date him and not feel remotely weird about. Absolutely he could be part of my friend group and I wouldn't feel weird about it. I said probably because I only know for a fact that two of us have done it (including myself) Another one is a serial dater and I'm certain he's dated a bi guy at once point.

by Anonymousreply 316April 30, 2018 6:51 PM

and yeah...I know and date a lot of bi's and pans.

by Anonymousreply 317April 30, 2018 6:52 PM

R314 It was a girl that came on to me and I just wanted to see if I still could because I had already had sex with two guys by then. I didn't find her attractive so maybe that was it. The first girl I did have sex with I would consider cute but thinking about her does nothing for me now. I don't think I even really enjoyed it back then. Everyone says when you lose your virginity you're supposed to cum immediately while it took me a while.

by Anonymousreply 318April 30, 2018 6:54 PM

There is no more of that subculture stuff thank god. Yes, assimilation is basically what it is now. At least w my friends, on campus in town and at home. Gay is just gay. Like straight is just straight.

by Anonymousreply 319April 30, 2018 6:55 PM

R315 A culture is pretty much define by "them vs us". It doesn't have to be a war but it's clearly about different communities of people. You just describe the end of the gay culture as a specific culture.

There again we can think it's great or regret it.

And bi people, give it rest. Some of us will never want to have sex with women. Just deal with it and move on.

by Anonymousreply 320April 30, 2018 6:56 PM

Who is trying to make you have sex with a woman r320?

by Anonymousreply 321April 30, 2018 6:57 PM

I think that homophobes are more of a subculture now than gays.

by Anonymousreply 322April 30, 2018 6:59 PM

R320 People who insist heavily here about straight sex and how being bi is awesome. You can't know about straight sex if you don't try it, etc....

Yeah, we get it. You're bi and happy. I'm glad for you.

I'm just waiting for the posters who gonna explain that being gay is close minded and that they feel for the "person not the sex" and other bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 323April 30, 2018 7:02 PM

Even if ppl do say its the person not the sex- does it matter? BC to look down on them is doing what was done to gays in the day. Just live and let live, dude. That is what life is about.

by Anonymousreply 324April 30, 2018 7:08 PM

Exactly R324 some people on here wan to have a gay bi war. For what?

by Anonymousreply 325April 30, 2018 7:10 PM

Totally, R325. Its almost as if SOME kind of "phobe" must exist. So odd, lol!

by Anonymousreply 326April 30, 2018 7:12 PM

The problem is not them being bi, pan or whatever.

The problem is the discourse with it "I'm more open minded" "I"m special" "I'm holier than thou cause I love the soul and not the body".

+ It's the discourse that straight guys serve to lesbians "Try it with me, you gonna change your mind about cocks..."

Basically fuck who you want but don't make it a special statement and no need to write 25 essays about how groundbreaking you are cause you love cocks and pussies.

by Anonymousreply 327April 30, 2018 7:14 PM

I'm 35, and I talked about sex with my straight male friends. And we don't hold anything back. We talk about rimming and douches and cockrings. They talk about female orgasms and squirting. I haven't said anything yet that's made them uncomfortable or weird

by Anonymousreply 328April 30, 2018 7:14 PM

Love is love! People are people! A banana is a banana! The heart wants what the heart wants! Labels are for bottles! Sexuality is fluid!

by Anonymousreply 329April 30, 2018 7:15 PM

R328, None of my friends exert energy exchanging discourse on the pros and cons of any kind of sexuality. Most of our discourse resides around the current political climate, and our classes. Not too sure what you are referring to, but there is no ostracizing amongst my group or others that I have seen. I think that sort of thinking has been relegating to the relics box.

by Anonymousreply 330April 30, 2018 7:17 PM

I personally don't want to talk about douching with my straight friends lol I don't even like talking about it with my gay friends. I prefer to get advice online in anonymous places like here. Literally anything else but that is game.

by Anonymousreply 331April 30, 2018 7:21 PM

^

Huh???

by Anonymousreply 332April 30, 2018 7:23 PM

R330 I don't speak about your experience as a person, I speak about the general climate about sexuality and how the Queer discourse is pushed over and over.

by Anonymousreply 333April 30, 2018 7:24 PM

Gay bars still exist. They're called straight bars now and the patrons all pretend to be "fluid". Gay identity has gone full circle.

by Anonymousreply 334April 30, 2018 7:24 PM

R333 I think a LOT of that comes from the media $$$$ selling stories....

by Anonymousreply 335April 30, 2018 7:25 PM

Nobody in their 20s cares about any sort of sex "culture". We just don't. Which is good.

by Anonymousreply 336April 30, 2018 7:26 PM

It seems like some people here are ADAMANT that if gays are not at war with straight people, we must now have a problem with bi people. If people call themselves queer, get over it, it has nothing to do with you. Live and let live

by Anonymousreply 337April 30, 2018 7:28 PM

When people will start calling you a bigot cause you don't want to fuck pussies, no need to cry.

There's already a discourse about the "Gay dictatorship", but I'm glad you feel safe and secure.

by Anonymousreply 338April 30, 2018 7:32 PM

Has anyone on this thread called you that R338? Cuz t looks to me like you're the one trying to stir shit up needlessly

by Anonymousreply 339April 30, 2018 7:33 PM

I so agree, R339.

by Anonymousreply 340April 30, 2018 7:35 PM

There seems to be generational issues here..lol....

by Anonymousreply 341April 30, 2018 7:36 PM

The thing is that you can't be yourself. You try bringing up anything male related in the same context that straight/bi men bring up anything female related and you'll lose all of your friends.

Even pedophiles can have friends. Other pedophiles. The idea that you are so disgusting that you have to pretend something you are not in order to be friends with others is idiotic.

by Anonymousreply 342April 30, 2018 7:39 PM

Sorry, the first paragraph is a quote.

[quote] The thing is that you can't be yourself. You try bringing up anything male related in the same context that straight/bi men bring up anything female related and you'll lose all of your friends.

Even pedophiles can have friends. Other pedophiles. The idea that you are so disgusting that you have to pretend something you are not in order to be friends with others is idiotic.

by Anonymousreply 343April 30, 2018 7:40 PM

huh? Who has to do that? Not me or any of my friends or anyone I know.

by Anonymousreply 344April 30, 2018 7:43 PM

Yea I talk about having sex with men with my straight friends all the time. Even when I don't feel like doing it they keep asking me until I talk about it. We are all too much in each other's business

by Anonymousreply 345April 30, 2018 7:44 PM

^

YES!

by Anonymousreply 346April 30, 2018 7:45 PM

R318 Yeah that's what I was talking about. Of course sex with people you aren't really attracted to isn't that enjoyable.

by Anonymousreply 347April 30, 2018 7:47 PM

{quote] Breaking up groups is a right-wing tactic. The more "individual" we are, the weaker we are. Gay culture and identity didn't come fully formed out of the ether, it came through gay men coming together and elevating what they had in common. It will always exist. We need to fight against these narratives of individualism and assimilation, for our own sake.

I disagree with you regarding individuality making a community weaker. Individualism makes a community stronger in the sense of a community using its individual members' talents and strengths to the community's advantage. The GOP demonizes individualism for their divide and conquer strategy.

by Anonymousreply 348April 30, 2018 7:49 PM

Homosexuality has no culture. Sexual orientation is not culture.

Gay subculture is just like goth or punk or cosplay, a bunch of people who gather together based on shared interests. Not everybody shares the same interests and there is nothing about homosexuality that says we must like the same things or think the same way.

by Anonymousreply 349April 30, 2018 8:03 PM

[quote] Actually, it's the far left radicals who want "diversity". Most people (if they were truly honest) would admit that they prefer to be around those like themselves.

That is very true when one considers "those like themselves" to mean like-minded and that can be LGBTs hanging around with straight LGBT allies, interesting people hanging around with other interesting people, fans of a something hanging around wth other fans of the same thing, etc.

But I would most certainly not be around someone who uses terms like "far left radicals", because for me that's alt right douchebag lingo.

by Anonymousreply 350April 30, 2018 8:04 PM

The whole "gay culture" was a thing maybe back in the day. It no longer exists among ppl my age. It just doesnt. Maybe when my GF or F were young (they are not gay lol), but not now. There is no such thing. We all hang as one, and we all talk about sex. Its just not a thing, dudes.

by Anonymousreply 351April 30, 2018 8:08 PM

I think what we have here is an obvious generation gap thing going on.

Eldergays 35 and older want to hold onto the past and refuse to accept change.

The gaylings and millenials have assimilated and are moving forward to bigger and better things. They're living life comfortably amongst their straight peers. Being gay does not define them. The millenials, Gay and straight defy labels. And good for them!

by Anonymousreply 352April 30, 2018 8:11 PM

The GOP uses shit like Divide & Conquer for a reason. LGBTs and their allies, as an united front, could fuck with the GOP more than "socialist liberals" ever could.

Culture, or gay culture is about expression and to say "I am here, I am not the only one. We are legion". Following (commercial) gay trends, and social media memes, create the image of a force to be reckoned with.

by Anonymousreply 353April 30, 2018 8:13 PM

R352 owns this thread!

by Anonymousreply 354April 30, 2018 8:13 PM

I do value all that was done by older generations to get us where we are. I am so sorry for what all of you must have been through. I consider myself extremely fortunate I never had those experiences.

But this is what you fought for. Acceptance. This is a good thing

by Anonymousreply 355April 30, 2018 8:15 PM

How do we resent gay stereotypes and celebrate them at the same time? How do we insist that we should be accepted everywhere but claim that only gays are allowed in our spaces? How do we say being gay has nothing to do with anything and yet say that being gay affects everything? I’m confused.

by Anonymousreply 356April 30, 2018 8:37 PM

None of you notice your concept of gay identity is very US-centric. You are not considering all the other homoexuals aorund the world, their cultural backgrounds and struggles. Gay culture and gay identity are illusionary US-centric concepts

by Anonymousreply 357April 30, 2018 8:44 PM

[quote] How do we resent gay stereotypes and celebrate them at the same time?

Self loathing (For the love of GOD! I am not like them!!!!) to "Gaybashers like to call us Queers? Well, we are here, we are queer, get used ot it!" owning slurs and stereotypes and take away their power to hurt, humiliate, intimidate.

by Anonymousreply 358April 30, 2018 8:48 PM

Regarding stereotypes. When you are gay and laugh the hardest the haters know they can't hurt you that way, because laughing at them means they don't bother you in a negative way.

by Anonymousreply 359April 30, 2018 8:55 PM

R358 It sounds self-deprecating to me, not powerful. If someone says a nasty thing to my face, I'm not going to take that thing and self-label myself with it while pretending I like it.

I'll just tell the person to fuck off. Feels much more powerful.

by Anonymousreply 360April 30, 2018 10:03 PM

R259 But laughing at the things I hate hurts me. More than those haters could. Because I'm betraying my own self by not being true to my anger.

Though, don't listen to me, I used to get into detention for fighting on school grounds. Not a good example for kids I guess.

by Anonymousreply 361April 30, 2018 10:06 PM

[quote] But laughing at the things I hate hurts me.

If you prefer haters being able to push your buttons whenever they like it, then that's your choice.

by Anonymousreply 362April 30, 2018 10:27 PM

Someone was here.

by Anonymousreply 363April 30, 2018 10:28 PM

R362 But my buttons are already pushed, if I'm faking a laugh, aren't they? I do feel. I'm just pretending I don't. Haters aren't going to stop saying things because I pretend to like them.

The best way, to me at least, is to show them my real attitude and then calm down because they aren't worth paying attention to. Or beat them until they learn not to open their mouth. Sometimes it works too. Depends on the situation.

But to agree with them feels like giving in.

by Anonymousreply 364April 30, 2018 10:31 PM

[quote] But my buttons are already pushed, if I'm faking a laugh, aren't they? I do feel.

Obviously you are your own worst enemy by letting others push your buttons. Any sensible person would make sure that people can't push them to the point where they give these haters what they want.

by Anonymousreply 365April 30, 2018 10:41 PM

Milo Yabbadabbadopolous only got attention because he was able to push people's buttons and exploit their reaction for his agenda and show that he can piss off the ones his benefactors (Steve Bannon and the Mercers) wanted to get pissed off to paint them as unhinged Nazis.

by Anonymousreply 366April 30, 2018 10:44 PM

R365 The only real situation in which your buttons aren't pushed is when you honestly don't give a fuck about these people and their opinions.

by Anonymousreply 367April 30, 2018 10:54 PM

r367, exactly. The only problem is to get to that (mental) place where you do not give a fuck about these people and their trolling and divide and conquer schemes get to you.

by Anonymousreply 368April 30, 2018 11:00 PM

One guy here is so insistent on wedging his age into his comments. It's funny.

by Anonymousreply 369April 30, 2018 11:03 PM

These trolls and haters can't exploit you when you laugh their trolling off or you just point blank ignore them (don't feed the trolls, remember?).

by Anonymousreply 370April 30, 2018 11:05 PM

R20, YES!!

by Anonymousreply 371April 30, 2018 11:08 PM

Gay culture is sadly obsolete. It's trans and queer now with no culture.

by Anonymousreply 372April 30, 2018 11:09 PM

Gotta love all these people here claiming that we don't need gay spaces anymore and they're not interested in gay culture because they blend in so effortlessly with straight culture and yet don't seem to see the blatant irony in the fact they're posting these comments on a gay space devoted to gay culture.

by Anonymousreply 373May 1, 2018 6:46 AM

This site is for homosexuals to comment on any topics; not restricted to gay subculture. Gay subculture is not something you re born with and it doesn't define homosexuality; not soemhting you have in comon with all other homsoexuals around the globe.

by Anonymousreply 374May 1, 2018 7:06 AM

Self-identified "fluids" absolutely do NOT refer to themselves as homosexuals.

by Anonymousreply 375May 1, 2018 7:10 AM

r374 It's a gay site, largely populated by gay people discussing subjects of particular interest to them. That's gay culture.

by Anonymousreply 376May 1, 2018 7:10 AM

You don't seem to understand the concept of culture. Homosexuals don't have a culture. Gay culture is a coined concept just to refer to a scene or ghetto born in western urban areas where intergrants happen to like the same sex. Gay culture is equivalent to goth or punk, they are also referred to as culture or subculture but they are not culture in itself; just scenes within society where people with share values or interests gather together as a group.

Also, your idea of gay culture is representative of your own regional and cultural background. When you think of gays you don't think of homosexuals in other parts o the world who don't have the same experiences and cultural background as yours to whom "gay culture" is an alien concept. R376

by Anonymousreply 377May 1, 2018 7:20 AM

r377 And yet, here you are...

by Anonymousreply 378May 1, 2018 7:24 AM

Maybe our gay identity died when Mr. Crowley started producing and writing for HART TO HART?

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 379May 1, 2018 9:11 AM

An interesting article that addresses the ambivalence.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 380May 1, 2018 1:21 PM

Straight identity has changed too. I’m a straight woman, but I don’t want the house, picket fence, or children.

Back then, “out” gays didnt have the option of marriage or kids or that perfect house in the suburbs (amongst narrow minded straights) and they stuck to liberal cities which surely gave a stronger sense of community. Today, of course, they can take part in a more “traditional” lifestyle if they want, and many do.

by Anonymousreply 381May 1, 2018 1:49 PM

R381 totally agree... we often joke that my (straight) brother lives more of a "gay lifestyle" than I do.

by Anonymousreply 382May 1, 2018 3:35 PM

God the annoying Scandinavian nit wit bi troll has shit all over this thread with his nonsense.

Willowly women in their 30s? Really.

by Anonymousreply 383May 1, 2018 3:50 PM

Nothing like publishing to the world where someone lives.

by Anonymousreply 384May 1, 2018 8:32 PM

More interesting, most of what you call gay culture was founded by transvestites; that's why gay culture is so effeminate.

by Anonymousreply 385May 1, 2018 8:50 PM

It saddens me that with all our rights that were unthinkable even 10 yrs ago, gay men and women are still consumed with feelings of shame and the need to hide.. Forget grindr and go out and meet people for a relationship. True intimacy and love is what ALL HUMANS want.

by Anonymousreply 386May 1, 2018 9:21 PM

ALRighty

by Anonymousreply 387May 2, 2018 4:58 AM

A lot of these kumbaya 'it's a new world now henny, just be you!' statements from queer set reflect a nauseating level of middle class privilege and self-absorption. It's also worth noting that this brave new generation is having far less sex and taking far fewer risks than past generations. Change brings good and bad, never just one or the other.

by Anonymousreply 388May 2, 2018 6:06 AM

Well said, r388

by Anonymousreply 389May 2, 2018 6:45 AM

R388 far less sex and far fewer risks is automatically a bad thing? Young gay people seem just as happy (or more) than ever

by Anonymousreply 390May 2, 2018 11:35 AM

DL is not gay culture; it's a website to dicus all sorts of topics. Stop thinking in a ethnocentric way. Homosexuality was here on Earth before your idea of gay culture and it will be here after it R378

by Anonymousreply 391May 2, 2018 8:02 PM

[quote]DL is not gay culture; it's a website to dicus all sorts of topics.

It's a gay website, full of gay people, discussing topics mostly of interest to gay people. Gay culture has always come about as a result of gay people congregating together in gay spaces and celebrating the things of particular interest to them.

by Anonymousreply 392May 2, 2018 8:09 PM

Not all homosexual people think and like all the things you do. Many homosexuals who post here don't have any special attachment to what you call gay culture. Homosexuality and gay culture are two different things; that's what you fail to understand R392

by Anonymousreply 393May 2, 2018 8:13 PM

r393 It's a gay website, dear. There's a wide range of topics on here, but the fact that a significant amount of gay people here find those subjects interesting and, more importantly, discuss those topics in a very particular way, means it becomes gay culture. Just as it always has. Homosexuality and gay culture are obviously two separate things, but what you fail to understand is that gay culture came about because homosexuals, as you refer to us, congregated together in "gay spaces" and shared, discussed and elevated the things of particular interest to themselves.

You seem to think that because a "homosexual" is interested in football, say, then he's not the same as those dreadful gays who like gay culture. You're wrong. Gay culture is as much about the particular way gay people filter the culture around them, as it is about the actual things they/we like.

by Anonymousreply 394May 2, 2018 8:24 PM

All cultural boundaries are disintegrating and that includes the gay culture. People are feeling more free to embrace qualities that belong to another "culture". The world is becoming and larger and smaller at the same time. As R381 said many straight people are no longer following the traditional, job-marriage-kids- path. It's all good imo

by Anonymousreply 395May 2, 2018 10:01 PM

Dicussions are not culture R394

And again, your concept of gay culture is ethnocentric; you ignore all other homosexuals who were not born under your cultural boundaries. You share the same sexual orientation with many round the world, but you don't hare the same culture with them.

by Anonymousreply 396May 6, 2018 4:34 AM

[quote]Dicussions are not culture [R394]

Culture comes out of people of a particular type coming together and discussing, sharing and elevating things of particular interest to themselves. This is a gay website, largely full of gay people, discussing topics of particular interest to themselves. That's about as simple as it can be stated. The gay people in other parts of the world will have their own culture, yes, but it's surprising how similar gay cultures are in attitudes and the ways they and we process the mainstream culture around us, as well as cultivating our own culture. I get the impression your sense of self partly stems from your notion of how you don't like what you see as "gay culture", but you are a part of gay culture simply by the fact that you are gay, you're here in a gay space and you discuss topics of interest and relevance to gay people. It really is as simple as that.

by Anonymousreply 397May 6, 2018 8:16 AM

You are wrong. DIscusins are not culture and again, "gay culture" is such a formal way to refer to a gay scene. Homosexuality does not have culture, sexual orientation does not have culture. Homosexual people are not born under one singular set of values and traditions shared by all of them. Except for sharing the sme sexual orientation you have little in common with gays in Iran or in Mongolia. What you call gay culture is not shared by all of us around the globe.

Again, when you say gay culture you are thinking in a ethnocentric way and imposing your own reality on others you dont know. It's a scene, some enjoy it, some not, some are indifferent.

by Anonymousreply 398May 6, 2018 12:02 PM

[quote]You are wrong

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 399May 6, 2018 3:45 PM

[quote]It's a scene

The "gay scene" and gay culture are two separate things. Some gay culture comes out of a "gay scene"; most of it doesn't.

by Anonymousreply 400May 6, 2018 3:47 PM

Are drag queens gay culture? I don't feel any particular attachment to drag. I may enjoy some of the comedy thye offer, but I feel drag is a fetishization of womanhood and heterosexual love/sex dynamics and that has nothing to do with my homosexuality. My homosexuality is not represented in men dressing like women: all the opposite, drag exalts heterosexuality.

by Anonymousreply 401May 7, 2018 4:23 AM

You don't have to enjoy or admire drag queens...but it would show education to acknowledge their place in gay cultural history.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 402May 7, 2018 5:26 AM

The homosexual men behind that; drag is not a real idntity to consider them a species of their own. And again, it is basically a fetishization of womanhood and exaltation of heterosexuality.

by Anonymousreply 403May 7, 2018 5:30 AM

Drag isn't a fetishization of anything nor is it an exaltation of heterosexuality. It's a parody.

by Anonymousreply 404May 7, 2018 4:45 PM

I don't understand why some people insist drag is a parody when it is not. Drag is fetishization of the womanhood. Most drag queens grew up idealizing femininity projecting their own sexual impulses through women.

Drag reinforces heterosexuality because they act like sexualized hyperfeminine women and all their interactions with men are sexualized. Have a look for example at music videos where drag queens act like hypersexual women and the masculine gay men in those videos must act like heterosexual men being the obect of th drag queen's lust. Some drag queens even alter their bodies to look more like women.

Drag is not parody; it is an idealized exhibition of hyperfemininty and idolization of women's lust.

by Anonymousreply 405May 7, 2018 5:17 PM

[quote]it is an idealized exhibition of hyperfemininty and idolization of women's lust

That's about as far away from an accurate description of drag as I've ever seen.

by Anonymousreply 406May 7, 2018 5:23 PM

Guys stop, this drag troll has been trying to start arguments all over DL. He made a thread and it failed and he can't stop trying to bring this up. Don't feed him. It's probably the trans troll

by Anonymousreply 407May 7, 2018 6:12 PM

In our day sisters loved men and hated fish - now it is the other way around.

In our day sisters consumed lots of leche and almost no drugs - now it is the other way around.

by Anonymousreply 408May 7, 2018 6:21 PM

In your day, Erna, Socrates was still trolling around for sizemeat.

by Anonymousreply 409May 8, 2018 6:56 AM

Who are drag queen imitating and why over the top? R406

by Anonymousreply 410May 8, 2018 7:10 AM

r410 - drag queens are generally seen as mocking and subverting gender roles, both masc and femme. If you thought Divine was exalting nuclear family womanhood and heterosexuality, you really don't know drag at all.

by Anonymousreply 411May 8, 2018 7:18 AM

That description is what you would read in Wikipedia, but it is far from the truth. Drag queens are not mocking gender roles; all the opposite, drag queens present and overly idealised and sexualised idea of femininity and, in turn, they reinforce gender roles and the expectation of femininity on women. R411

Tell me if this picture is mocking gender roles.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 412May 8, 2018 9:45 AM

The "extinction of gay identity" some seem to be mourning was about being forced to have sex in public restrooms with strangers because one was arrested if spotted .connecting anywhere else.

Good timez : (

by Anonymousreply 413May 8, 2018 10:25 AM

In former times sisters consumed tons of leche and almost no drugs.

Today it is the other way around. This is progress??!!

by Anonymousreply 414May 8, 2018 8:02 PM

What is gay identity in the first place?

by Anonymousreply 415May 9, 2018 3:35 PM

pole-smokin' and corn-holin' ,,,,,,,,is there anything else?

by Anonymousreply 416May 9, 2018 3:38 PM

You can try to assimilate all you want. In most professional environments, if you are gay you are different. This was addressed in another thread some time ago. There is still a glass ceiling for gays and you will still be excluded from the interpersonal affinity and interactions that str8s use to advance their careers. We cannot all be hairdressers, florists, actors on the CW or executives at Bravo TV. And we don't all live in NYC or SF or LA. For the rest of us we have a gay identity whether we embrace it or not.

by Anonymousreply 417May 9, 2018 4:01 PM

I consider myself a homosexual because I'm attrcted to the same sex. I'm not really attached to the label "gay" because even though I'm young the word wasn't really popular in my country up until early 2000's while I heard the word "homosexual" my entire life. I use the word "gay" because is shorter, but when associating it with myself I don't feel it describes me. Growing up feeling fear and shame for liking the same sex the word "gay" (happy) does not capture the fear and shame society made me grew up with for my sexual orientation.

I don't hate the word gay at all; it just doesn't feel like me. And then I don't frequent gay clubs and stuff like that. I don't hate gay clubs; it's just that I grew up with diferent interests and tastes that deviate from what the gay scene usully offers. I could go to gay clubs and I have gone to some in the past, but it won't become a habit of mine. I think the gay scene rotates heavily around a very specific idea of gay men. I don't now if there are more options with a broader umbrella for gay demographic...

Liking Madonna or liking Lady Gaga; liking theater or liking drag shows, I don't find myself there so I feel dettached from idea of a gay identity. When it comes to our rights, however I am there.

by Anonymousreply 418May 10, 2018 10:19 AM

r417 tells it like it is, and that is why most homosexuals marry fish and have children.

by Anonymousreply 419May 10, 2018 11:04 AM

When you say "gay culture" do you acknowledge and embrace ancient achievements? For example, gym culture was created by homosexual men of ancient times in greece. Unlike today, masculinity was exalted by homosexual and bisexul men. Are you against the fact that homosexual men exalted masculinity and pondered ideas and activities around it?

by Anonymousreply 420May 13, 2018 9:40 AM

[quote]gym culture

LOL.

by Anonymousreply 421May 13, 2018 2:27 PM

It is well documented that during the last period BC Greece enjoyed a prominent time of homoeroticism where homosexual love and attraction led to the exaltation of the athletic male figure, masculinity and gym culture was born from this. The walls of the gymnasium still attest of the attraction men expressed to each other.

And what about ancient Middle Easter poems describing same-sex love.

by Anonymousreply 422May 13, 2018 7:39 PM

There's no such thing as "gym culture". Men repetitively lifting stuff is not culture.

by Anonymousreply 423May 13, 2018 8:43 PM

There wasn't and idea of cultivation of mind and body and a place for this (gymnasium) until the Greeks came up with it.

by Anonymousreply 424May 14, 2018 3:07 AM

There definitely is a "Gym Culture" in the anthropological/sociological sense.

by Anonymousreply 425May 14, 2018 3:16 AM

Here we are seeing the clash of two opposite forces, one of them apparently being ignored as a homosexual identity or history if you will.

by Anonymousreply 426May 14, 2018 3:51 AM

yawn...

by Anonymousreply 427May 14, 2018 4:21 AM

I know! What the furk is she going on about?? Gym "culture" and the exaltation of the athletic male body have always recognizably been a part of gay culture.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 428May 14, 2018 7:04 AM

I'd say lusting after young bodies has always been part of EVERY culture.

by Anonymousreply 429May 14, 2018 7:18 AM

There is more to homosexuality than gay clubs appearing in the 70's and men dressing like women. It goes way back in time and history.

by Anonymousreply 430May 14, 2018 7:40 AM

A couple of weeks ago at our AA meeting we heard a hot 33 year old say to a hot 50 year old: "You go girl"!

by Anonymousreply 431May 14, 2018 7:43 AM

There were total flamers throwing shapes and applying make up in the days of the caveman.

by Anonymousreply 432May 14, 2018 4:39 PM

I don't think so. No one care about make in primitive times; only survival.

by Anonymousreply 433May 15, 2018 1:44 AM

TIme matches on. Stop trying to hold on to the past

by Anonymousreply 434August 20, 2018 5:25 PM

R434 amen

by Anonymousreply 435August 20, 2018 5:56 PM

Division/ propaganda thread.

by Anonymousreply 436August 20, 2018 6:09 PM

I prefer the mainstream

by Anonymousreply 437April 20, 2019 5:18 PM

I prefer the mainstream too. I was in palm Springs recently and it was like being in a time warp. Those gay guys never progressed beyond Castro St 1978.

by Anonymousreply 438April 20, 2019 5:58 PM

I think as long as we have OP around, we won't lack for "gay identity."

There's enough there to fill a warehouse.

by Anonymousreply 439April 20, 2019 6:06 PM

Bump

by Anonymousreply 440June 21, 2021 2:02 AM

It wasn't merely the mainstreaming or suburbanization of gays that neutered their style. Gays lost some of that fabulousness because a lot of gay men died in the 1980s and 1990s. People who lived may have been a bit burned out. People who came after them didn't really have much to look to in the way of example. Cultural interests took a backseat to making money around the '80s also.

And we seem to downplay this, but in the US in the 1980s and into the 1990s, it was a very difficult time to be gay. We had few friends in the public sphere outside major world cities. Discrimination was common and accepted. This probably led many gay men to hide themselves, rather than live in a gay enclave. I remember not getting a job in the mid '90s after an employer, looking at my resume, made a nasty comment to my face about how I lived near all those fags, and I'd probably want to move away from there soon.

by Anonymousreply 441June 21, 2021 3:54 PM

[quote]Even worse, it seems the new thing is being “sexually fluid.” In 10 years, I imagine gay men will be accused of being narrow-minded and misogynistic for not being open to sex with women.

Psychic?

by Anonymousreply 442June 21, 2021 4:00 PM

As late as the 90’s when I was struggling with work and making money doing things like waiting tables or bar tending, I always lived with several gay roommates crowded into an apartment and being able to live alone- or coupled- is sort of a coming of age thing for gay men and a mark of success. Nowadays, you cannot rent so easily in major cities without great credit and the truth is unless your parents are co-signing your lease, you still live with them. Also, the idea of a “gay ghetto” where gay owned businesses catered to gay men has evaporated- everything from card shop and novelty stores, florists, sandwich shops and diners- gone because when the owners age out, there’s no children to carry it over. I think it also has to do with smartphones and having unfettered access to people through your fingertips rather than actually meeting up.

by Anonymousreply 443June 21, 2021 4:18 PM

Not only what you say about aging out R443, but frankly, people don't have as much disposable income these days. There isn't the money to support gay florists, card shops, etc.

by Anonymousreply 444June 21, 2021 4:45 PM

BTQ+ have twisted gay Identity into a literal freakshow circus that's so fucked up, homophobic, and nonsensical.

Bisexuals were erasing and retarding gay people, gay identity, gay rights, and gay culture decades before TQ+ started their anti-gay bullshit propaganda.

Our once gay community and gay identity has been so muddied beyond words because of BTQ+, and the gay people who wouldn't listen to the rest of us gay people about the nefarious intentions of BTQ+ signed everything over to BTQ+ who control everything and continue to fuck up everything.

Gay porn, gay identity, pure and authentic homosexuality, gay organisations, gay community, gay exclusive spaces, gay anything, are extinct. It's a complete intersectional mess of unstable BTQ+ motherfuckers, and the future is only going to be more homophobic and more fucked up groups with their make believe sexualities and gender identities are going to continue being added, and just like now gay people are expected to go along with whatever the freaks want and say.

by Anonymousreply 445June 21, 2021 4:56 PM

The Flint Institute is hosting an art exhibition on gay identity the month.

Offsite Link
by Anonymousreply 446June 21, 2021 9:06 PM

R455, I had dinner last week with several straight friends... as the token homo at the table, I could only throw up my hands when one of the others said, "how did gays and lesbians get swept up with the trans?" I had no answer, but I agree with you, the "gay" identity is being erased.

by Anonymousreply 447June 21, 2021 9:17 PM

I agree with the poster above who said that we can have it both ways. We can still have gay-centric spaces for those who want them (although there will be fewer than there were 20 years ago), and that those who want to be satisfied with assimilation and avoiding those gay spaces can do just that.

It isn't rocket science.

Women are assimilated into straight society, right? They still enjoy their ladies-only environments, as well they should. Straight men have their fishing trips, or other boys night out things. I could go on and on. Lesbians really like to have their women-only spaces because they feel safe and can let their guard down, this is still a thing.

It's like some of you don't know any real people out there, only the ones with YT/Insta/Tik Tok accounts. Get out more.

by Anonymousreply 448June 24, 2021 9:13 PM
Loading
Need more help? Click Here.

Yes indeed, we too use "cookies." Take a look at our privacy/terms or if you just want to see the damn site without all this bureaucratic nonsense, click ACCEPT. Otherwise, you'll just have to find some other site for your pointless bitchery needs.

×

Become a contributor - post when you want with no ads!