Why was it once considered chivalrous for the man to order for the woman on a date?

I don’t know, OP, but since he was paying, that might have played a role, and should have.

It helped prove the man could take charge and handle things and the woman could sit there and just look pretty.

R2 is right; a woman isn't to speak in the presence of a man in public; he would speak on her behalf back then. Some men are like that to day still and women. You ask the woman a question and the man will speak for her. I see that a lot with white men/Asian women couples.

I remember when men had a menu with prices, the lady did not.

I am assuming she relayed the order to him in advance, and then he had to interface with the waiter (let's assume this is a quality joint; the waiter inevitably male).

New one for me - never knew that men ordered for women. When - back in the caveman days?

Not sure, R5, maybe not. It really was a different world. We’re only 💯 years away from talaban-like conditions in the US in some classes.

Yep R6 prior to the 1960s before gender roles started to break from the chain.

R6, poor women worked like men, like dogs. But rich women lived like Victorian Ladies. They did not speak to unknown men.

Not sure why people are thinking this happened in the distant past. It's not that different from mansplaining which many people are still fighting.

I love Lucy aired from 1951 to 1957, and Lucy always ordered her own pork chop or steak and spaghetti.

I don’t think all these cultural artifacts are always as pervasive as we tend to think they were.

[quote]I remember when men had a menu with prices, the lady did not.

I wonder if there are still some really retro places that still do that. Maybe in another country?

So how does it work on dates these days? Do they go Dutch or does the man always pay? Or do they switch off?

“Interface with the waiter” r5?

I went on a date with Aziz Ansari and he ignored my nonverbal cues that told him I needed him to order for me because of medically certified social anxiety. I felt violated, but I did have my emotional support chinchilla with me and that did help a little. It took a lot of therapy to build up my resolve so that I would be strong enough to share this with you.

R11, I Love Lucy was a head of her times. I mean Wonder Woman was created in 1944 or something like that and she was very out spoken, something not many American woman were at that time. TV does not represent cultural norms.

R13 The guy pays but usually because he asked the girl out. If however the date doesn’t seem to working out they might go Dutch. There are several more rules but my sister isn’t here to ask.

In the olden days, a lady might have been permitted to talk if she was able to yank him off to completion underneath the white tablecloth.

Today, a guy might pay for a lady’s dinner if she does that.

High class men would order for women in luxury restaurants  The rest of men would order for women in certain kinds of restaurants. If it was the mans usual business restaurant., or if it was in fact a business dinner. If its was a date to a very good steak or seafood restaurant. It would be assumed the man would be a real specialist for steak and seafood.

Remember the man or wine steward (man) had to chose the wine. So he could easily decide to choose the meal.

It’s a good way for an abusive man to screen his date for compatability/controllability.

Nowadays broads are ok with the 'You buy, 'I'll fly,' arrangement.

General rule: the person who asked the other out is expected to pay.

R11, that Lucy episode was just on this morning on the Hallmark channel! It was on in the background while I got dressed for work.

You know I once went out with a couple. I was friends with the guy, but his date, a woman, whispered to him what she wanted to have, and then he just ordered for her. I found that kind of odd.

Women used to have trouble reading on account of womb-related hysteria.

A proper lady was not allowed to speak to a homosexualist waiter. It would offend her delicate senses.

Yes, for explanations of heterosexual dating mores, DL is the place to be.

My Dad had a passport for him and his wife, my Mom. It was only the 1950s in the US.

Traditionally, an expensive dinner is a man’s ticket to a fuck. And although it’s discouraged for a man today to say something like this, my many friendships with women tell me that many women have a strong preference to be fucked by men who aggressively disrespect them. They don’t want to marry or work with those men but they do like a demeaning fuck. Fifty Shades of Gray’s success is explained solely by this phenomenon.

[quote] I wonder if there are still some really retro places that still do that. Maybe in another country?

Saudi Arabia, my guess.

r29 There's no such thing as mixed gender dining out in Saudi Arabia.

I pay, you lay.

Lüchow's In Brooklyn (1882-1983) has a cookbook with a few sections that say Ladies are invited to their restaurant. (NOT THE BARROOM, though). Sometimes I see exterior signs elsewhere that say “Ladies invited”.

The point was, the lady ordered whatever she wanted, since her companion was paying. Very simple.

Do "nice girls" still wait three dates before sex? I never understood that. If you hit it off and are wildly attracted to each other, why not go for it right away?

r32 There are still old-school restaurants that have a "Family Entrance," which usually means you don't have to walk through the bar to get to the seating area.

Watch the "Alfred Hitchcock Presents" series (black & white) 30 minute episode reruns and you'll see exactly what it was like back then in the late-40's to mid-60's. Most of these 250 (30-minute episodes) were filmed in the 1950's but that way of life, the formalities, mannerisms, etc, carried on throughout the 60's and some even continued into the 70's.

They addressed each other as Mr, Miss or Mrs until told otherwise, which allowing first name basis (that had to be earned) meant they were considering allowing the person into their personal life and social circles. Otherwise, no first name basis until they got the okay.

In addition to ordering for his date or wife, usually after she approved or agreed with the order, you'll also see that the man always lit her cigarette, ordered her drinky-poo too, and always opened and closed the door for her, and the men also stood when women entered the room. As they were about to get up from the dinner table in a restaurant, he would stand first and pull her chair out for her.

It was also a time when women didn't show any cleavage (and boob jobs were rare) unless they were a movie star or a barfly-floozy type in a bar unescorted (bad idea back then apparently) or an up-and coming Hollywood actress. Otherwise, it was considered inappropriate and women who dressed provocatively were ostracized by other women. The men didn't take them seriously and didn't consider them 'wifely.'

A "proper lady" could not converse with a man other than her husband out in public unless he was part of the conversation. Women had to be escorted into nightclubs as going in alone or with a girlfriend to meet other girlfriends (like today) would give the establishment a bad name it seemed. Only the men could enter alone. Times sure have changed.

Watch Alfred Hitchcock Presents reruns and see for your self. Good stories too. With killer endings.

Dear Speaks for Herself, The first female restaurant-goers would not have dreamed of ordering for themselves. Women began dining out for pleasure around the 1840s in the United States, says William Grimes, author of Appetite City: A Culinary History of New York. (Before this, public eating establishments consisted of taverns, inns, and men’s clubs and did not cater to women.) Well-bred women always had a male companion who ordered their dinner. In fact, many restaurants did not even admit women without a male chaperon.

Rebecca L. Spang, author of The Invention of the Restaurant: Paris and Modern Gastronomic Culture, explains: “The public sphere in the 19th century … was encoded as male.” In other words, it was indecorous for ladies to address men outside their circle of family and friends, even if it was just to say, “I’ll have the roasted chicken.”

Since men usually paid, giving the order may have seemed part of being a good host. In any case, it made more sense back then for one person to give the order, since entrées came in family-size portions and diners often split them. It was only at the beginning of the 20th century that the vogue for individual entrées began, says Grimes. “Many menus from the turn of the century have parentheses after the item indicating whether it’s a double or a single portion.”

The problem is today many women still enjoy and want the chivalrous behavior of men fawning all over them and begging to pay for their dinner. But god forbid they should be expected to return the same level of behavior or class. That medieval custom really needs to die. If woman want equal pay and equal right, (as I agree they should), how about open a door for the guy behind you for a change? How about paying for your meals on a regular basis instead as a once in a blue moon? I can't tell you how man times I have held a door open for a woman and they dont even say thank you, its like they just expect all men to bow down to them because they have a stinky twat. Sorry "ladies" this gay man dose not want that and your horrible tacky self involved behavior is showing its true colors.

Women can't read as good as men so the men did it for them as a courtesy.

Also lets face it, woman are too damn picky in a restaurant. They annoy everyone. "I will have the Cesar salad prepared table side, but can you hold the croutons, and the salt and put the dressing on the side?" " So you just want a bowl of lettuce then?" "no, I want the Cesar Salad"

I literally have seen this play out in front of my very eyes in a fancy restaurant for a friends birthday. The attention from servers went downhill from there. She couldn't figure out why.

I think some people are missing a step in the procedure. It's not that the gentleman orders whatever he thinks the date will like, and she just has to live with it...it's that they have discussed the order while waiting for the waiter, and the HOST (the man) (at that time) conveys what's been decided to the waiter. There is one point person.

It's really kind of a more streamlined process that gets your order into the kitchen quicker, so you're not waiting all night. (Though you had better convey the order correctly!) I still do this when I'm out with one or two other people. It just kind of speed things up, rather than having the waiter go around the table with a lot of dithering. I KNOW BY THIS POINT WHAT WE'RE ORDERING! "We will have the antipasta appetizer, my friend will have the Greek salad entree, no onion, and I will have the cheddar cheeseburger medium rare with steamed vegetables." The waiter can then ask questions to clarify...but it's DONE.

(Okay...that dinner menu actually sounds a little crazy!) (What type restaurant is this??)

I've only heard of this being done when the man is either a total control freak, or a foodie who wants to show off his expertise.

I've never heard of a straight man asking a female foodie to order for him.

My dad says this situation, and the asking the father for permission to marry his daughter were back in the days when women didn’t have a choice. It’s not right for people to still be doing that he said. And my dad knows everything.

R34 if a girl sleeps with a guy on the first date he’ll never call her again. So if a girl is genuinely interested in a guy she pretends to be a “nice” girl and sends him on his way at the end of the date when in reality she’d like to invite him in. It’s stupid, but it’s the game.

Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free.

This was in the 60's and our dad ordered for us, including our mom, when we ate in a restaurant. Though our mom would correct or remind him if the order wasn't correct. But she would not talk directly to the waiter, just to our dad. As kids, we learned to not speak with anyone we didn't know until we were introduced. Our mom taught us, as we got older, that when a man is walking with a woman he walks nearest the curb. Things like that. To this day I won't start eating until everyone at the table has been served. In case anyone is wondering, if I'm dining with a women, she orders first.

I think woman still order first at least in most of the dinners Iv been to lately. That also needs to stop. It makes much more sense that a waiter goes clockwise or counterclockwise on a table. Ever notice how the same woman who bitch about rights and being under paid never seem to complain about being treated like gold when in a restaurant?

We all know that women aren't much good at anything outside the home, especially making up their tiny little minds.

Read recently that a menu without prices is actually illegal.

I'm not sure the writer in the link at r33 knows what they're talking about. I'm 60 and I only remember seeing those "ladies menus" with no prices listed a few times. But I do remember etiquette books advising women that being a good date included always ordering the cheapest thing on the menu. And even without prices listed on the "ladies menu" everyone knew that the chicken dish or the daily special would always be cheaper than steak or lobster or other high end entrees.

I'm not an expert but I think men ordering for women had more to do with money rather than chivalry. Men did the ordering because they knew how much they were willing to spend. Also by choosing the cheapest thing on the menu when prices were listed women understood that not ordering the steak or lobster sent the message that they weren't going to be pressured into putting out for the price of an expensive dinner or look like a gold digger.

Some of those 50s shows show this line of thinking as well as the woman always referring to the man.

I had a pretty cool dad who took our family to a lot of nice places as soon as my brother and I were old enough to behave accordingly. Mostly when I saw men ordering for women I also overheard the man telling the woman her choice was too expensive so she'd be having his choice instead. And then he ordered for her.

You don’t order the least expensive item on the menu as that implies that your date (who is paying, naturellement) cannot afford anything better. You order something in the middle— not the priciest item and not the cheapest. It’s usually a safe bet to order the same thing as your date. (Yes, I’m a zillion years old and know all the antiquated heterosexual courtship rituals.)

Because women can't make up their minds.

If the other person is offering to cover the cost of the entire dinner & drinks - it seems fair for the freeloading person (who’s getting a freebie meal) to let the hosting person decide the menu (and thus moderate the cost, depending on his budget).

At one time men were supposed to enter elevators before women, in case the elevator should fall or malfunction. But I guess nowadays that would be considered rude. But I sometimes do it, especially if the elevator is empty, and then hold the door open for anyone else entering.

Why do women get into bars free or half priced on ladies’ night?

r55 Not in California.

R55, because, so the thinking goes, the men will follow the women and the men are likely to spend more.

R56 No? Is there a law against it, or is it just not Cali culture?

R57 Right. So it’s pretty sexist by definition—luring women into a place for men to descend upon them—but are women who buy into the marketing for small financial gain then participating in a misogynistic system?