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Do I hate women because I don’t see the majority of Weinstein accusers as victims?

I don’t see Asia argento as a victim since she kept having sex with Harvey. It seems like a lot of these slept with him thinking it would make them stars, it didn’t happen and now they feel victimized.

by Anonymousreply 70Last Saturday at 2:00 PM

I'm a woman and I agree. They also wouldn't be complaining if Weinstein was attractive. They are more offended by his ugliness than his actions.

by Anonymousreply 1Last Tuesday at 2:35 PM

OP, how do you react to crimes, tragedies, and disasters in general? When you hear that some place has been devastated by a hurricane to you scramble to help, or do you sit there and grumble that the people chose to live there and they should be held responsible for their losses?

Maybe you don't hate women, maybe you're just a horrible unsympathetic person in general.

by Anonymousreply 2Last Tuesday at 2:47 PM

R3, not OP but I just LOVE crimes, tragedies and disasters in general? You?

WTF is your point? People SHOULD discriminate between levels of behavior. Asia is no victim. And woemn who willingly trade sex to advance their career don't get my sympathy. Plenty of women say no.

Gay men should be hypervigilant about false accusations. They are easy to make and impossible to erase.

by Anonymousreply 3Last Tuesday at 3:15 PM

Yes. You do.

by Anonymousreply 4Last Tuesday at 3:17 PM

Yeah, wouldn' ya' think "let's meet in my hotel room" would onlyleaeto trouble? Or if he appeats in a bathrobe, just leave, bitch! The man is a pig but his "victims" brought sone of it on themselves.

by Anonymousreply 5Last Tuesday at 3:21 PM

I don't think you hate women, that's a stretch. But you certainly don't care much about them as humans. Given you know it's a world where rich bastards like Weinstein hold pretty much everything in hollywood, and women nothing, and people regularly get blackballed, etc..

You can say some of the women like Argento sold their souls a bit, but they certainly shouldn't have been given the choice of that or failure.

by Anonymousreply 6Last Tuesday at 3:24 PM

No, I ageee in a sense, The narrative makes rich famous women , some of whom got big payoffs, mean more than the abuses done to regular women. I personally think celebrities are shit. But they need to speak up to clean this shit up now. Then maybe we can get some fresh talent to enjoy.

I'm sure if your mom or sister etc. got abused that way you'd be upset.

by Anonymousreply 7Last Tuesday at 3:28 PM

I think if there were big names speaking out,Streep,Roberts,etc,then I might be a touch more sympathetic. But the majority of the accusers have been washed up has beens or never were's .so that makes me think they are just doing it for attention. Id love for one of the Biggie female stars to come out and say " I sucked plenty of cocks to get here,so what ?" !

by Anonymousreply 8Last Tuesday at 3:33 PM

I think it's more complicated than "hating women" if you have that opinion. I would say that a system and/or society that puts a woman in a situation where she has to choose between giving into sexual advances to advance her career, or failing/being blackballed in her career is a deeply problematic and toxic system. One that, yes, victimizes women, whether they go along with it or not.

by Anonymousreply 9Last Tuesday at 3:39 PM

r1, woman or not, you're kind of a shit human being.

by Anonymousreply 10Last Tuesday at 3:41 PM

[quote] You can say some of the women like Argento sold their souls a bit, but they certainly shouldn't have been given the choice of that or failure.

What evidence do you have that she had to sell her soul or have no career. That's a cheap and easy answer. Also an unrealistic answer. This was not a woman without her own connections.

by Anonymousreply 11Last Tuesday at 3:44 PM

It's very simple. Harvey set out to get laid by using coercion - quid pro quo sexual harassment, intimidation, or physical violence. No matter how his victims responded, and whether they're sympathetic or not, Harvey is STILL guilty of quid pro quo sexual harassment, coercion, intimidation, and/or violence.

And of misusing company funds, BTW. That's another reason quid pro quo sexual harassment is actionable, it uses company money to pay for sexual favors, and leaves the best person for the job on someone else's payroll.

by Anonymousreply 12Last Tuesday at 4:16 PM

Female here. I agree with OP. Asia Argentina and other women who trade sex for favors give pigs like Harvey Weinstein permission to pull that crap with other women.

by Anonymousreply 13Last Tuesday at 4:22 PM

Why are you even thinking about it at all? Why not get a hobby?

by Anonymousreply 14Last Tuesday at 4:23 PM

Congratulations, R1/R13. You two wrote, probably, some of the most disgusting, ignorant, self-loathing things I have ever read here on DL.

Who needs men to put women down with you two ladies around.

by Anonymousreply 15Last Tuesday at 4:32 PM

I might be a shitty person, but at least I didn't whore myself out for a job, willingly perpetuating the cycle of female abuse for money, only to cry about it years later because my career went nowhere. So I've got that going for me. These women gambled and they lost; there millions of people who much more deserving of sympathy.

by Anonymousreply 16Last Tuesday at 4:32 PM

Ladies? Fuck off, pig.

by Anonymousreply 17Last Tuesday at 4:41 PM

DYLAN FARROW HAD EVERY REASON TO LIE ABOUT WOODY ALLEN!

by Anonymousreply 18Last Tuesday at 4:44 PM

R18, a rational analysis of that situation exposes all the holes, biases and motivations to lie in her - aka Mia's - story. People lie all the time. Fucked up people lie even more.

by Anonymousreply 19Last Tuesday at 4:48 PM

[quote] I might be a shitty person, but at least I didn't whore myself out for a job, willingly perpetuating the cycle of female abuse for money, only to cry about it years later because my career went nowhere. So I've got that going for me.

Your completely lack of ability to put yourself in the place of these women and the smug, condescending way in which you use yourself as an example of "better" makes YOU the perfect Weinstein enabler.

by Anonymousreply 20Last Tuesday at 5:05 PM

“I'm a woman and I agree. They also wouldn't be complaining if Weinstein was attractive. They are more offended by his ugliness than his actions.”

Oh, yes, it would be much more satisfying if a good looking man had ruined your career.

by Anonymousreply 21Last Tuesday at 5:08 PM

Hardly an enabler, R20. I simply believe that grown women are no less responsible for their choices than men.

by Anonymousreply 22Last Tuesday at 6:04 PM

Just for the record, whose career did Harvey ruin?

by Anonymousreply 23Last Tuesday at 9:07 PM

I'm a lesbian and I agree, I'm sure some of them were taken advantage of but many of them knew what they were getting into and chose fame or the promise of fame over not fucking some man in a position of power in the industry. Is the fact that these women had to fuck someone to get ahead in Hollywood a symptom of sexism in the industry? Yes. But are they a victim for taking advantage of it? Not really, I'm mean, maybe they have been damaged from sort of abuse earlier in their life which made them consider this a reasonable trade off but who knows.

They've only made it harder for women trying to get into the industry legitimately. They should have been banding together to fight sexism in Hollywood not spreading their legs for their own shot at fame.

by Anonymousreply 24Last Tuesday at 9:18 PM

No but you have a startlingly lack of sympathy, intelligence, and ability to read context.

by Anonymousreply 25Last Tuesday at 9:37 PM

HW: Hit-with-an-ugly-stick bloated monster preying on people who are easy to dupe and victimize. Stupid dupes! They deserve it.

^^^ A lot of ugly stick posts on this thread.

Brother Bob W: Dibs on sloppy seconds!

by Anonymousreply 26Last Tuesday at 9:51 PM

Still waiting for those surefire Rape I charges that were going to be filed, like, weeks ago. Paz? You there? Put down that bottle and FILE already.

Or maybe there aren't going to be any charges because there wasn't any rape. And asking Ashley Judd to watch Harvey shower -- with no repercussions or force afterwards and not in an office but a hotel suite -- doesn't exactly infuriate me either. The whole thing is feeling more and more ridiculous.

Harvey WILL be back unless someone proves Rape and soon. Otherwise, everyone including Lisa Bloom need to shut up with the vapid accusations.

by Anonymousreply 27Last Tuesday at 10:12 PM

There's a psychological aspect to this that people fail to undetstand if they haven't experienced it. It's not as simple as offering to fuck someone for a career, like a cut-and-dry transaction. The ones in power know how to choose the victims and make them feel ashamed and keep them quiet. It's like a brainwashing sometimes. Then when people come around and say they weren't even victimized, it's like a retraumatization. I have to wonder if those pointing out they are women in their posts and then denying that these women were victimized are simply trolls. If not, they are just some heartless bitches.

by Anonymousreply 28Last Tuesday at 10:14 PM

[quote]Do I hate women because I don’t see the majority of Weinstein accusers as victims?

As others have pointed out, Yup.

by Anonymousreply 29Last Tuesday at 10:17 PM

R1 some people find creepiness a turn off. Also, you can't just rape someone and hope afterwards that you were their type or their sexual preference. There is not a person everyone finds attractive. So even a "hot" guy will end up raping or harassing someone.

by Anonymousreply 30Last Tuesday at 10:55 PM

Ugh. No Op, you're just a cunt.

Some of you bitches in this thread need a thump.

by Anonymousreply 31Last Tuesday at 10:55 PM

You don't have to sleep with powerful Hollywood men to be a successful Hollywood actress.

Did Kathy Bates, Best Actress Oscar winner, do the deed to get to the top of her field?

"But she's different!" Um, yes, not so attractive (though I do think she's swell).

So the less talented actresses, but attractive actresses, have used what they could, to get ahead.

If you can't be Kathy Bates talented, then sleep your way to success.

No sympathy for these ladies that should know better.

by Anonymousreply 32Last Tuesday at 11:21 PM

It's clear that The Whale has a mental illness, and these women took advantage of this ill fellow for a shot at fame.

by Anonymousreply 33Last Tuesday at 11:23 PM

Trauma can put you in a very different mindset and make you act irrationally. Choosing to sleep with him afterwards doesn't mean Asia wasn't raped at first. Maybe she had a horrible experience and tried to get something out of it. While it might've been a stupid decision, I don't think she should be blamed. She wasn't the evil one.

If this is the beginning of a backlash, it just means no one gave a shit in the first place.

by Anonymousreply 34Last Tuesday at 11:25 PM

R34 That's highly unlikely. She wasn't a minor trying to please the family predator.

Asia was a grown woman, not some mental cripple.

by Anonymousreply 35Last Tuesday at 11:36 PM

R34 What's wrong with saying Harvey was a sleaze, and Asia was stupid?

by Anonymousreply 36Last Tuesday at 11:37 PM

(R36) nothing, it’s merely the truth.

by Anonymousreply 37Last Tuesday at 11:41 PM

Perhaps if you've read some of the men this has happened to--straight men, perved on by gay men in power in Hollywood--you would feel differently.

There are a few on Twitter who tell their stories. They were all shocked/embarrassed when it happened, didn't know how to get out of the situation, etc.

by Anonymousreply 38Last Tuesday at 11:45 PM

Acting irrationally in response to trauma does not only occur when you are a minor trying to please the family predator, R35.

R36 I said it was a stupid decision. It probably fucked her up more. I don't think she's stupid.

Wasn't Asia using and trying to support her kid? You don't think for someone to willingly sleep with their rapist they have to be messed up mentally? Whatever you consider what happened after the rape, he still raped her to begin with. It seems like some people think her later actions make them equals somehow. It probably felt like rock bottom.

by Anonymousreply 39Last Wednesday at 12:20 AM

Fish have been using their gashes since the beginning of time to become famous and wealthy $$$. Once they had to start working for a living it was natural that they would continue to leverage their lady bits for $$$.

by Anonymousreply 40Last Wednesday at 1:05 AM

On the other hand, I would rim Harvey for free!

by Anonymousreply 41Last Wednesday at 1:20 AM

Harvey and the women are all mentally ill. He's just a mean sick person.

by Anonymousreply 42Last Wednesday at 2:04 AM

He is vile but you can bet that if he was back in business right now there would be a string of actresses fawning over him just because the need to be famous outweighs the shame of being a whore.

by Anonymousreply 43Last Wednesday at 2:21 AM

R32, actresses like Kathy Bates and Mayim Bayalik might get through their entire careers without being sexually harassed, but actresses who are younger and more conventionally beautiful will have a much harder time. Because for a young actress the big money is in playing beautiful, sexy women, and how do you keep sex out of the equation when you're auditioning for the role of a beautiful sexy woman? Nude scenes and bikini scenes are part of most such roles, can an actress go to an audition for the role of a stripper and refuse to strip down in person? If she's auditioning for the role of a female secret agent and there's a scene where she gets nekkid with the hero, can she refuse to strip down at an audition or to send a producer a nude?

It's an industry of blurred lines all right, one where sexual behavior really IS part of the job description for some people, and if they want to eliminate sex from their professional lives they're going to spend their careers playing "Second Nun".. Which doesn't give the Harvey Weinsteins of the world the right to overstep anyone's boundaries and force them into sex, or to use his investor's money to hire the person who gives the best blowjob, for that matter.

by Anonymousreply 44Last Wednesday at 6:40 AM

[quote]Hardly an enabler, R20. I simply believe that grown women are no less responsible for their choices than men.

You are an enabler precisely because you don't see how.

Weinstein's victims are in the dozen. That you are capable of putting them all in one basket and call them all by one name - "victims by choice" - speaks of your inability to asses human nature in its complexities.

Aside from your clear self-loathing masked with feelings of superiority.

by Anonymousreply 45Last Wednesday at 6:53 AM

R1, there's really no "might be" about it. Your follow up response proves beyond a doubt that you are a vile piece of shit.

by Anonymousreply 46Last Wednesday at 6:56 AM

I take it case-by-case, as far as which ones I'm thinking are victims, and which ones I view with a certain amount of skepticism.

by Anonymousreply 47Last Wednesday at 7:30 AM

He didn't victimize everyone in the same way. Not everything is as simple as we would like, or as black and white as the "stranger danger" predator jumping out of the bushes and raping the innocent virgin walking home from Catholic school. Granted, I am a bit less cunty than the stereotypical DL'er, but since sympathy is free and therefore costs nothing, I guess I'm able to spare a little for those whose situations are a bit more complex. Often women find themselves in the gray area of trying to participate in a system that is weighted against them, which means that they sometimes make the wrong decision. But that doesn't mean I'm unable to have sympathy for them.

by Anonymousreply 48Last Wednesday at 7:43 AM

I knew a girl in college who wanted to become a Wall Street tycoon. She was in my economics class. She was brilliant and beautiful and ambitious and very much a feminist. I was shocked when she told me she planned to "sleep her way up the corporate ladder scrupulously and in a calculated manner" and then take over and fire the idiot men who promoted her. I always wondered what happened to her I forgot her name.

by Anonymousreply 49Last Wednesday at 8:14 AM

The real victims are those

1.) women who said no 2.) were never given the opportunity to sleep their way to the top

Puhleeeeasse- the women who slept with him are opportunists and he is a disgusting abuser.

I work in a straight man dominated field and was “raped” by these heteros more often than any of the women who benefited from the flirting/touching/harassment. It took a lot of suffering at the hands of these straight men to make it. They still hate me for succeeding in my industry, but now i just rub the gay all over their ugly straight faces and there’s nothing they can do about it.

So no, OP, I don’t think this means you hate women. How do you feel about those women who had the courage to say no?

by Anonymousreply 50Last Wednesday at 8:38 AM

I'm glad R50 got through the toxic environment unscathed.

by Anonymousreply 51Last Wednesday at 1:29 PM

“Just for the record, whose career did Harvey ruin?”

Annabella Sciorra’s one.

by Anonymousreply 52Last Wednesday at 5:47 PM

Want to make a list of all the actresses whose career Harvey HELPED? I assure you it's much longer.

And TIME magazine rewards Ashley Nutcase Judd for yacking years after the fact about going to a major player's hotel suite where nothing remotely physical happened. Remind yourself it's just to sell bullshit magazines but the word "brave" has been severely hijacked of late.

by Anonymousreply 53Last Wednesday at 6:42 PM

The issue here is that there is a societal system in place that requires that in order to advance in certain professional positions, a woman (or man) has to choose between acquiescing to sexual harassment/abuse or not being able to advance. That choice shouldn't exist for anyone. It's that simple. Arguing that the women wanted it anyway is the result of buying into the concept of powerful men being leaders and everyone else being lesser. In this case, women are expected to fight back, carry all the effort while these men need to do nothing. How is that right?

by Anonymousreply 54Last Wednesday at 7:11 PM

No you don't hate women. You see through the lies that we are being sold to us by the media. It's a dirty business. I'm willing to bet 95% of the accusers had consensual sex with him in hopes of advancing their careers. Now that their careers are over (if they even had a career at all) and their looks have faded, they are mad and bitter that they whored themselves out and didn't get much in return.

by Anonymousreply 55Last Wednesday at 7:24 PM

He didn't kill Sciorra's career. She never had one to begin with. She was C-list at best in her prime which is why she was sleeping around with Weinstein and probably others.

by Anonymousreply 56Last Wednesday at 7:27 PM

Harvey is a gross pig, but you can't tell me that many of these women didn't know just what the game was. Yes, the game is fucked, but they chose to play.

by Anonymousreply 57Last Wednesday at 8:01 PM

Some of them are saying that with their loud silences that reveal so much [R8]

by Anonymousreply 58Last Wednesday at 8:17 PM

There have been rumors that he "killed" the careers of those who said no, but only rumors, and even if he did there will never be anything but rumors. Acting is a chancy business, and if an actress refused Harvey's advances and then found she wasn't offered any roles afterwards, she'd never know if it was because Harvey was telling everyone not to hire her, or just the normal ups and downs of an actor's career. The only way we the public would ever find out something like that is if some big agent or casting director confirms that they went along with blackballing uncooperative actresses, and those people NEVER tell their secrets to the public.

Of course the fear that he would or could do that would always be there, if Harvey confronted you in a bathrobe. Nobody should ever have to make a decision like that to make a job, fuck a monster or refuse and take the chance of losing everything.

by Anonymousreply 59Last Wednesday at 8:22 PM

There are some sick motherfuckers on this site.

by Anonymousreply 60Last Wednesday at 8:32 PM

Singer/Songwriter Seal on Hollywood sex scandals: "Tell it like it is"

by Anonymousreply 61Last Thursday at 6:59 AM

If you have sex with someone to get a job, you aren't a victim, you're a whore.

by Anonymousreply 62Last Thursday at 7:02 AM

I'm impressed with R62's grasp of nuance.

by Anonymousreply 63Last Thursday at 8:02 AM

bump

by Anonymousreply 64Last Saturday at 8:21 AM

When I was in advertising, I would occasionally have people throw themselves at me to cast them in print ads and even catalogs, at this one job, in particular. I didn't take any of them up on it—I wouldn't have been interested in the women, who were actually more aggressive about "getting together," but I didn't sleep with any of the guys, either. It seemed unprofessional. Now, if Michael Ives had hit me up, I wouldn't've been able to say no, but I don't think he was modeling yet then.

Point is, I don't know how easy it would have been for me to say no to guys if I'd been in a position like Weinstein's or Spacey's. I got out of the production end, maybe subconsciously so I wouldn't have to deal with it.

by Anonymousreply 65Last Saturday at 8:32 AM

Exactly, R65. And I don't even think you would've been wrong if you had done it.

I know it's hard to fathom in this Victim culture but not every participant is doing anything against his will. It's just basic sexuality between two consenting adults, even if there is a subtext that involves getting a gig or whatever. Far from the end of the world as others seem to believe.

by Anonymousreply 66Last Saturday at 9:36 AM

Yes, R65, not every participant is doing something against their will. Actors and actresses and other wannabes throw themselves at those in a position to help their careers, And genuine mutual passion can happen in these power-imabalnce situations, actresses and directors have affairs all the time, the meeting of minds and shared adventure that happens when making a film is a very intense experience that can lead to love and even marriages.

however, anyone in a position of power who gives out a job or contract to someone who offered sexual favors or even true love STILL deserves to lose their jobs and be pilloried by the community. Even if the exchange of favors for sex isn't personally abusive, it's still a misuse of trust and the company funds. A casting director isn't being paid to find the best fuck rather than the best actor for a role, and Harvey Weinstein's investors weren't giving him money because they wanted him to have a good time, they trusted him with their money because they expected him to make the best possible film with the best possible actors, not the ones who'd suck his tiny dick. Be glad you said "no" when you got offers, because even the appearance of misusing company funds would have been terrible for your career.

by Anonymousreply 67Last Saturday at 11:23 AM

I don't think that happens nearly as much as folks want to believe -- you blew me, you get to star in "Chicago" or whatever. Usually it's the opposite where they get left behind with no role or a movie that mysteriously "disappears"/gets cancelled. But I will say this from having done it: we had to use a lot and I mean a LOT of wives of producers in key roles they were nowhere near the best for. And who would/could argue? Or the roommate/best friend of the lead actor in one or two cases. So what is the difference? No, it's not fair, no it's not an even playing field but it's just how it goes.

by Anonymousreply 68Last Saturday at 12:48 PM

Anything Asia Argento claims is immediately suspect. She is a low - very low level - "actress" - dated Angelina, has always been on the outskirts, she has never made it....will do anything for fame - men and women, so her claims of sexual assault are dubious as she was most likely the aggressor - aiming to advance her career. She's the Asian Amber Heard

by Anonymousreply 69Last Saturday at 1:24 PM

That's what most people here don't get, R67.

The exchange if sex for favors is illegal or actionable, and is considered quid pro quo sexual harassment, EVEN IF THE PERSON OFFERING SEX IS 100% WILLING. Even if they're downright enthusiastic, and initiate the exchange. The person who gives the favor still loses their job.

by Anonymousreply 70Last Saturday at 2:00 PM
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