South African Students Say Science Is Racist and Should Be Abolished
Students at the University of Cape Town in South Africa brought some interesting concerns before the science faculty this week: namely, they think science as it is currently understood must be abolished.
"The whole thing should scratched off, especially in Africa," said one of the students.
The students are apparently known as "fallists." Their hashtag is #ScienceMustFall. You can watch them make their case during a meeting here.
Essentially, these students believe that modern scientific understanding is too Eurocentric. One explained:
"I have a question for all the science people. There is a place in KZN called Umhlab'uyalingana. They believe that through the magic' you call it black magic' they call it witchcraft' you are able to send lightening to strike someone. Can you explain that scientifically because it's something that happens?"
Many people laughed at this remark because, well, witchcraft is not something that happens. But according to the student, witchcraft is like Isaac Newton's theory of gravity—it's just one way of explaining the world, among many.
"Decolonising the science would mean doing away with it entirely and starting all over again to deal with how we respond to the environment and how we understand it," the student continued.
There is a longer version of the video out there including an amusing additional scene. After the young lady finishes condemning western colonial science, she unironically checks her phone for texts.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 96||10/18/2016|
Extensive IQ testing has shown the South African universities to be Sisyphean endeavours.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 2||10/16/2016|
There are many different ways to explain things. Doesn't mean that all those explanations are correct.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 3||10/16/2016|
The average black student in a South African university has an IQ of less than 80. So what kind of higher learning is going on working with that?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 5||10/16/2016|
I might have gone along with them if they were talking about literature or music and making the case that Shakespeare or Beethoven are only geniuses if one accepts a Eurocentric paradigm on what makes literature or music great. I might have gone along with them if they were debating the merits of Giotto and renaissance painters relative to indigenous art. If the argument were that the criteria which establishes these works as great are derived from a European bias against which African art cannot be succeed - sure.
But, science? I'll believe in witchcraft when it operates 100% of the time ,like gravity does, and can be used to predict and explain other natural phenomena. Can witchcraft bring Halley's Comet into view from the earth every 75 years like gravity does?
But hey, it's their right to believe whatever they want. If they can weaponize witchcraft, they'll clearly become a global dominant military power able to establish a new orthodoxy which is less Eurocentric.
Good luck to them.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 6||10/16/2016|
What, R5 ? How can that be!
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 7||10/16/2016|
[quote]What does that mean, [R2]?
I think that S. African schools may not be the only ones with that burden, r2.
Where were you educated, r4?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 8||10/16/2016|
Why do these young things have their ideas taken seriously? Sometimes there needs to be an adult in the room telling them - no, just no - you're wrong.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 9||10/16/2016|
I understood the allusion, R8 - I wanted to know the data behind it.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 10||10/16/2016|
If R6 is a university professor, I would register for his course(s)!
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 11||10/16/2016|
[quote] Extensive IQ testing has shown the South African universities to be Sisyphean endeavours.
Extensive IQ testing has shown R2 to be an ignorant and irrational moron.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 12||10/16/2016|
R5 has an IQ of less than 80. So what kind of posting is going on working with that?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 13||10/16/2016|
Individuals between 80-90 in IQ, if they are very high functioning, can certainly go to "college" and succeed in some professions, but why probably aren't capable of higher and critical thinking such as systems theory, the history of science, philosophy, etc. 100-110 is the sweat spot for many of the so-called "professions" and the ones demanding higher thinking really 110-130.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 14||10/16/2016|
r13 in your fantasy, dear.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 15||10/16/2016|
R2 supports Trump. And with his spelling, he voted in favour of Brexit as well.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 16||10/16/2016|
The dimwit in the video has no business deconstructing science as a cultural construction. She should be told so and encouraged to study something practicable that fits her intellectual capacity.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 17||10/16/2016|
Or, R17, she could replace Billy Bush at NBC.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 18||10/16/2016|
I see that the neo-Nazi wannabees and Klan cunts have stopped fucking their daughters long enough to stop by the Datalounge this evening.
Welcome, incestuous pig-fucking scumbags!
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 19||10/16/2016|
I am a democrat, and not a neo-nazi racist klan cunt, but a university professor. I know that in many countries, there are too many people in universities that have no business being there but here we are.
There aren't enough well-paying jobs for average folks and people and countries are using universities as a mob control method, selling false dreams. The dimwit in the video isn't going to be a writer or thinker. She needs training for a living wage job is what she needs.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 20||10/16/2016|
r29, what is your position on Aerodynamics or the Oxygen theory of combustion?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 21||10/16/2016|
R20 is a Democrat and a university professor in the same way that David Duke is a Democrat and a communications specialist.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 22||10/16/2016|
[quote][R29], what is your position on Aerodynamics or the Oxygen theory of combustion?
r21 - Do you subscribe to the witchcraft theory since you're demonstrating precognitive abilities which would make Philip K. Dick and most mediums and witches envious?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 23||10/16/2016|
[quote]After the young lady finishes condemning western colonial science, she unironically checks her phone for texts.
Her phone might be powered by witchcraft.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 24||10/16/2016|
College is for people to advance their ignorance and get corrected
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 25||10/16/2016|
Hey, I know what that crazy chick does to me is VERY scientific.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 26||10/16/2016|
R5 = big fan of "phantom"
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 27||10/16/2016|
You all do realize that there are people in the Bible Belt who also shun science because it fails to explain the miracles of God.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 28||10/16/2016|
Yes of course, R28, we've seen them so often in recent weeks as Baskets of Deplorables.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 29||10/16/2016|
because God doesn't exist, R28.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 30||10/16/2016|
Ummm, about sending lightning bolts to hit your enemies, who can I contact for the particulars?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 31||10/16/2016|
Indeed, R31, that information should be in a DL faq.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 32||10/16/2016|
What have the Romans ever done for us?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 33||10/16/2016|
R30 Of course God exists. That won't stop you from trying to convince yourself otherwise I'm sure. You'd rather believe you were created by nothing. Nothing just exploded into everything. Removing God allows you to remove the idea that there is some objective absolute standard of morality to which you are held. You can then live your life however you so choose and tell yourself that you'll never be punished for what you do You see, atheism isn't a case of "I don't believe in God" atheism is a case of "I don't WANT to believe in God. The bible says you are well aware of the fact that God exists but because you hate him so much you actively work to surpress any knowledge of him so that you can go off and do as you please. Repent or perish.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 34||10/16/2016|
It would have been interesting to see the response if these people were asked "Since it was originally set out by the ancient Greeks ans later broadened by 17th century Europeans, do you believe in the scientific method?" Basically observe, hypothesize and recreate the observation. Also, as others have mentioned above, are they willing to do away with EVERYTHING which has a basis in non-African discovery? Even the modern system of counting?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 35||10/16/2016|
R34, I don't hate which doesn't exist. Bringing up the bible to argue that God exists is an exercise in futility.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 36||10/16/2016|
r34: please explain to us the following:
A) where in my post I stated the words "atheist" or "hate" (or any of their forms). B) how you know what "standard of morality" I live by (especially if i haven't read your book), and how it may or may not be different from yours. C) how you, whoever you are, reconcile your personal OFFensive (and ofFENSive, for the record) pre-judgment of me vs what a non-Latino male named Jesus reportedly said about loving thy neighbor and not casting stones. D) how you know that an entity named "God" exists, scientifically. E) and for demographic purposes, what US state you live in and what denomination you are a member of? F) and if you are a paying DL member?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 37||10/16/2016|
Let me get this straight. If we point out that the girl in the video is a bit of a moron, we must be Klansmen?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 38||10/16/2016|
Aw, look at R34 trying to earn her heavenly extra credit by trying to save a horrible heathen. Will you buy a ruby for your crown when you get to heaven? A precious ruby to commemorate the shedding of Jesus' blood which saved all believers?
What a treasure you are. Thank you for your valued contribution to our community!
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 39||10/16/2016|
Bump for original thread.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 40||10/17/2016|
The white man and the green man appropriating South African tribal lightning fingers.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 41||10/17/2016|
So I assume that the next time these fools need penicillin or a procedure that requires anasthesia, they will opt for the witch doctor method instead?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 42||10/17/2016|
Again, no different than white Southerners who are supposed to be properly educated. These are college students. In America we have elected officials who believe variations of this.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 45||10/17/2016|
R45 Link please to American college students who wish to abolish science courses.
R38 Apparently that's the idea.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 46||10/17/2016|
[quote]If they can weaponize witchcraft, they'll clearly become a global dominant military power able to establish a new orthodoxy which is less Eurocentric.
That was basically the plot of [italic]Bedknobs and Broomsticks[/italic].
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 47||10/17/2016|
R46, you don't see the parallels here? Many Southern Christians don't even believe in what is taught in our textbooks. They go to church and talk against science. These are all ignorant, backwards people. They exist all over the globe. This to me is not shocking or interesting.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 48||10/17/2016|
No, I don't see the parallels. Americans who are as stupid as you describe rarely finish high school. They aren't in college.
And why single out Southern Christians? Your agenda is showing.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 49||10/18/2016|
Well Liberty U. does have a creationism department...
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 50||10/18/2016|
When R34 kills an ant, first he reviews their life stories to see which ones were good ants and which ones were bad ants. Then he prepares a special terrarium filled with potato salad for the good ants to eat in the afterlife, and the bad ants he puts in a terrarium where the outsides are coated with RAID.
Has there ever been anything as stupid as religion? When you say you believe in religion, what you are really saying is that you believe other people can magically control nature by talking to magical beings that only they know and understand. Instead of trying to learn about your world and control it through your own efforts, you want someone else to control it by telling you what to do to please these magical beings. That's not "morality," that's the herd mentality.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 51||10/18/2016|
Indeed, it is immorality, and that's why religion's claims to be a moral arbiter are doomed to fail. You can't erect a moral system on a foundation of fraud and expect it to work. If morality is absolute it is not "human nature" and yet religion is nothing if not the failure of humans to use their brains.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 52||10/18/2016|
R12 you must be South African, average IQ of 77, barely above room temperature.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 53||10/18/2016|
Joke or not, this is yet another example of the hopelessness that comprises the entire continent of Africa, from stem to stern, from the Mediterranean to the Cape of Good Hope.
Keep hoping, Africa.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 54||10/18/2016|
r10, Metaphors don't come with "data," you nitwit.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 55||10/18/2016|
Other than creationism, Southern Christians still believe in science. You know, gravity, computers, medicine. Not witchcraft in the sense that it is used to harness energy or explain the seasons. I understand where you think it is the same, but only if you are talking about religion, not science overall.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 56||10/18/2016|
Yes, r2, but they haven't taken over our universities.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 57||10/18/2016|
Well, I have finally realized the comment I should have made first, the only pertinent one:
Cry, the Beloved Country.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 58||10/18/2016|
And yet we have a southern witch right here on Datalounge R56. Those people in South Africa believe in gravity, computers, and medicine also. But neither they nor the Southern Christians could have invented any of it. Yes, lots of inventors and scientists have believed weird shit (Sir Isaac Newton dabbled in alchemy they say), but you have to be willing to be persuaded by evidence, which is a habit of mind Southern Christians do not have.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 60||10/18/2016|
R50 that just proves R49's point. Idiots don't belong in real universities.
But I don't see what the OP's link has to do with "Southern Christians" or Liberty "U." It's amazing who is considered a fair target on DL and who belongs to a protected class.
Cretins (in college no less) in South Africa reject all science but it's wrong to discuss it. Change the topic to creationists.
Gay men are stoned or thrown from buildings in the Middle East but that's verboten to discuss. Change the topic to Xtians.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 61||10/18/2016|
Southern Christians aren't the real enemy of science in America, social "scientists" are. The idiots in the gender studies, queer studies etc departments are. I have linked to a twitter account that publishes real abstracts from real peer reviewed articles. This particular abstract states that the scientific method is androcentric and must be replaced. A previous version of this account was deleted because of pressure from social "scientists" (see their pinned tweet). These people are absolute idiots and yet they have careers in academia.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 62||10/18/2016|
Exactly, r61! Everything is "racist" EXCEPT to criticize Whites and/or Christianity!
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 64||10/18/2016|
Some religions are stupider than others by far.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 65||10/18/2016|
[quote] Southern Christians aren't the real enemy of science in America, social "scientists" are. The idiots in the gender studies, queer studies etc departments are. I have linked to a twitter account that publishes real abstracts from real peer reviewed articles. This particular abstract states that the scientific method is androcentric and must be replaced. A previous version of this account was deleted because of pressure from social "scientists" (see their pinned tweet). These people are absolute idiots and yet they have careers in academia.
Calling anything related to the study of sex "jenn-durr" and calling gay studies "q***r" is no less offensive than calling African-American history "tales of dem darkies."
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 66||10/18/2016|
Yes: it should be noted that on the far right side of the ledger you have people denying the science of evolution and climate change while on the far left you have people denying the science of biology and genetics. And people don't see the irony.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 67||10/18/2016|
It's pure ideology, r66, nothing to do with science
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 68||10/18/2016|
Are they going to bring in Voo Doo 101 to replace Science101?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 69||10/18/2016|
Does this mean we can count watching [italic]The Wizard of Oz[/italic] as homework?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 70||10/18/2016|
All 8 seasons of Bewitched can be studied for a Master of Science degree.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 71||10/18/2016|
I went to high school in the 70's. They offered a class called "The Bible as Literature". Apparently it was a class to discuss and study it purely on its literary merit.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 72||10/18/2016|
Southern Christians have always been violent bigots, so to say they are "not the problem" is to deny the importance of history.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 73||10/18/2016|
R73 under discussion is the window licking crazy South African woman who said science is Eurocentric and magic should be studied. Please enlighten us as to why you think Southern Christians are to blame?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 75||10/18/2016|
R73 we're discussing current events, not history.
But if you want to discuss violent bigots throughout history, I suspect you'll still be unhappy with which religion is the most bloodthirsty.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 76||10/18/2016|
It's not just "history" if there are decals of confederate stick figures kicking rainbow stickers in the name of a candidate for a party that was founded on the opposition to slavery.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 77||10/18/2016|
[quote]Please enlighten us as to why you think Southern Christians are to blame?
Who spread Christianity to Africa?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 78||10/18/2016|
What's your point r78? Christians spread Christianity, I'd bet anything they weren't Southern they'd have been European back then.
What makes you think that has anything to do with a whack doodle whining that science is white therefor magic should be taught instead? Please explain. I really am at a loss to understand what the fuck you're trying to say. Black South African is a nutcase so that's the fault of churchy people in Alabama?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 79||10/18/2016|
Did magic, voodoo or witchcraft prevent AIDS from ravaging Africa?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 80||10/18/2016|
[quote]You all do realize that there are people in the Bible Belt who also shun science because it fails to explain the miracles of God.
You I do realize that.
And we laugh at the them and call them what they are: STUPID.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 81||10/18/2016|
* "Yes I do realize that."
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 82||10/18/2016|
The problem with most social sciences is that they don't account enough for environment although I've noticed a few researchers are starting to do that more. It's obviously impossible to fully account for it because humans can't grow up in a controlled lab experiment. Humans, no matter what group they belong to, are never all the same either. People take data and act like it applies to everyone in a group and they know exactly why. You can still find what appear to be trends; the danger is filling in the blanks of the way a person acts with those stereotypes rather than getting to know them individually. People do that all the time anyway. Science always ends up in the wrong hands. I see no way of stopping that.
Of course, I'm sure some people think different ethnic groups act differently because of genetics and not culture. A handful of races is way too broad, but what if there are slight differences between smaller groupings of people? The most similarities will be within families, not races, ethnic groups, genders, sexual orientations, etc, so for some more homogeneous regions you could maybe see some similarities between a lot of people almost as if they're a big family. I still think it's a dangerous road to go down. People would take a few studies from a few researchers and act like it's proven that every single person from Tajikistan acts a certain way. Even the people who are really into science are too stupid (or just lazy and/or narrow-minded) for it sometimes.
A good thing to remember is that the average person of average intelligence would believe whatever the culture they grow up in tells them to believe. Some of them just get lucky and grow up in smarter cultures.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 83||10/18/2016|
R83Some of them just get lucky and grow up in smarter cultures.
So what you are telling us is that some cultures ARE smarter than others.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 84||10/18/2016|
R79 The person freaking out over this thread has no point. It's all diversion. R61 summed it up pretty well: You can't laugh at the crazy bitch from South Africa because she's in a protected class. So let's change the topic to stupid, white Americans.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 85||10/18/2016|
Well, how did she get that way? She wasn't born with it. Someone had to teach it to her.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 86||10/18/2016|
Whoever discovered fire enabled cross-burnings, therefore fire is racist.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 87||10/18/2016|
R86, maybe she's a big Insane Clown Posse fan?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 88||10/18/2016|
Southern Christians, most of them, still deny global warming, so yes, they are enemies of science. This South African idiot think the indigenous people had a special wisdom for things like witchcraft that the colonialists lacked. This kind of thinking is dumb, and it has usually been implanted by the colonialists themselves, who have Indians believing they have special "spiritual" gifts and Chinese thinking their "folk medicine" is better than the real thing, and South African blacks believing they have special insights, all so management, organization, science, and power could be kept to themselves. What she thinks is of course ignorant, especially of the fact that all the ANC leaders including Mandela were firm believers in European values and education and it is they, not witch doctors, who procured rights for the people. It is hardly surprising that people who find their culture newly empowered and who think that the present time allows for more assertiveness and power-seeking in her culture, would approach the question this way. When women first won the vote all sorts of nonsense was asserted, that it would be the end of war and so on, that women would transform the way society works for the better, none of which has proved true since virtually all female leaders before the 90s were bloodthirsty warriors and it turned out to be an empty promise in the halls of power.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 89||10/18/2016|
But it's the same kind of stupid thinking. Now that WE'RE in charge, things are going to be different. No, power corrupts absolutely and any idea that the world is divided into "good" and "bad" people is going to end up not changing anything but the identity of the oppressor and the specific techniques of oppression. Real progress only comes from recognizing the universal, which is why SCIENCE has been so successful.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 90||10/18/2016|
R84 I guess I do think there are smarter cultures, sure, although I think some of that can be subjective, but then saying everything is subjective is a slippery slope sometimes. There are certainly more moral cultures. I mean there are cultures where killing someone from another tribe is a sign of manliness, or eating enemies is a way to steal their power, or eating loved ones is a way to keep them close to you, or kidnapping and raping the bride is the norm, or dogs are stolen from their owners and tortured before they're eaten. I think all of that is abhorrent. To act as if it's all natural is to act as if empathy is learned and no one can naturally be a good person. I think that does show that a lot of people would do seriously fucked-up shit if they grew up seeing it. Maybe there are good and bad people on either side of them on the spectrum who would be good or bad regardless. Nonetheless, I think it's bullshit to just respect everything about another culture. What I'd say is wrong is tying it too much to something intrinsic to the individuals within the culture.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 91||10/18/2016|
The old "science is racist" excuse to get out of taking your biology exam.
Oldest trick in the book.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 92||10/18/2016|
[quote]not changing anything but the identity of the oppressor and the specific techniques of oppression
Instead of oppressing people who don't deserve it, why not turn around and do it to those who do: like the people who oppressed those who didn't deserve it just because they were different from their oppressors.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 93||10/18/2016|
I practice santeria and there isn't such a thing as witchcraft and violating the laws of physics with it. These people are fanatics.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 94||10/18/2016|
R93 why not just try to stop oppression altogether? Do the future generations deserve to experience what their ancestors did to others?
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 95||10/18/2016|
Rereading what you wrote, I realized you might mean you'd limit the punishment to those who were the actual oppressors, not everyone in their group. I'm not sure though.
|by #blackmagicmatters||reply 96||10/18/2016|