What is your favorite Sondheim lyric?

OP here. I guess I should really say "Roz Russell and Lisa Kirk's finest moment". Kirk sang it, but the look on Roz's face was so wistful and hopeful when she says it, ya gotta give her credit too.

Too many, but to name just one: The hands on the clock turn, so don't sing a nocturne just yet.

OP: You don't understand the difference between adjectives and adverbs, so how can you appreciate well, ur, good lyrics?

Go can’t you go

Why is nobody listening

Goodbye Go and cry

At another person’s wake

If you’re quick

For a kick

You could pick Up a christening

But please

On my knees

There’s a human life at stake!

(I also like "perhaps I'll collapse in the apse" from the same song.)

Bambino Op, it would be more easy for us to write lyrics we love in general, and not just Sondheim's songs. I don't know many of his songs, shoot me...

I like 'Green Finch and Linnet Bird', but i'm not obsessed with some particular verses in it.

"...while her withers wither with her" - Into the Woods

R3 I'm the OP. Explain. What did I do?

INTO THE WOODS could be my life story.

"Nice is different than good."(It's true, just because people are nice doesn't necessarily make them good people; I've encountered such wolves in sheep's clothing.)

"Opportunity is not a lengthy visitor." (Stupidly, in my twenties, I let some great opportunities pass me by, because I thought they would always be there or at least stay awhile.)

"You may know what you need, but to get what you want, better see that you keep what you have." (I tend to be single-minded, which often means that in my pursuit of one goal, I've tended to lose sight of everything else, and in the end I've ended up losing all.)

"Sometimes the things you most wish for are not to be touched." (At age 36, I now wonder if I should just give up and settle for less, because I have never achieved anything I wanted, and perhaps is the way it was meant to be.)

"Another long exhausting day,

Another thousand dollars,

A matinee, a Pinter play,

Perhaps a piece of Mahler's.

[bold]I'll drink to that

And one for Mahler.[/bold]

'Nice is different than good."

"Just remembering you've had an "and" when you're back to "or", makes the or mean more than it did before."

"Sometimes, when the wrappings fall, there's nothing underneath at all."

"But how can you know what you want 'til you get what you want and you see if you like it?"

"But some people ain't me."

"This time for me. For me. For me. For me. Foooooorrrr meeeeeeeeee!"

God, that man writes from my soul. "On the Steps of the Palace" and "Moments in the Woods" might as well be inner monologues of mine when I'm driving in the car. Genius man!

OP: Right and lovely are adjectives. You used them as adverbs.

There's a hole in the world like a great black pit And the vermin of the world inhabit it And it's morals aren't worth what a pig can spit And it goes by the name of London

At the top of the hole sit the privileged few Making mock of the vermin in the lower zoo Turning beauty into filth and greed

Read more: Sweeney Todd - No Place Like London Lyrics | MetroLyrics

R11 what I love about "On the Steps of the Palace" (besides the genius lyrics/rhyming) is that it's written as a train of thought, meaning that it speeds up when Cinderella's mind is racing , then slows down when she's pondering something, even trialing off a bit. It's not just verse/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/bridge/chorus like most (Broadway) songs.

OP, R3 is being a jerk, that's all. What you wrote is actually. He acts like an alien...

It's hot and it's monotonous.

I say this to myself every time someone says it's hot.

*IS ACTUALLY RIGHT

"Take my daughter/I taught her" is a deliberate Sondheim rhyme that i don't like but then he redeems it with "I tried my best to point the way/I even named her Desiree"

I remember days,

Or at least I try.

But as years go by,

It's a sort of haze...

And the bluest ink

Isn't really sky.

And at times I think

I would gladly die

For a day of sky.

Though Sondheim was Hammerstein's protege, he's a far better lyricist. Hammerstein's rhymes were very simplistic ("When the dog bits/when the bee stings/When I'm feeling sad/I simply remember my favorite things/And then I don't feel so bad") and he had obsession with birds, particularly larks. Also, I cringe at "Shall we still be together with our arms around each other" and "On the clear understanding that this kind of thing can happen" from "Shall We Dance?" Sondheim, who's an expert at internal rhymes, would've found a way to rhyme 'together'/'each other' and 'understanding'/'happen.' Whenever I hear that song, it feels that there should be rhymes there.

Haha thanks R15. I really was perplexed!

And I would say that even is someone doesn't have prefect grammar it wouldn't prevent them from enjoying a good Sondheim lyric.

Love the other examples people are giving. The breadth of Sondheim's work is staggering.

I've gotten through "Hey, lady--aren't you Whosit?

Boy, what a looker you were! "

Or better yet, "Sorry, I thought you were Whosit- -

Whatever happened to her?"

That's the sound of an audience loosing its mind.

It's the pope on his balcony blessing mankind.

Folks, it's Funny Girl, Fiddler and Dolly combined!

R23 I rather doubt Sondheim wrote 'loosing.'

[Lovett] What's my secret? Frankly, dear, forgive my candor Family secret, all to do with herbs Things like being careful with your coriander That's what makes the gravy grander

[Customers] More hot pies!

And we've got some shepherd's pie peppered with actual shepherd on top.

Hammerstein could be very uneven but at his best he achieves an effortless brilliance which Sondheim is incapable of.

Sondheim is brilliant but he is too clever by half.

Hart is like Hammerstein. Uneven but breathtaking when he takes off with no apparent effort.

Sondheim is the eternal brightest most promising student in the graduate class.

Not that I don't love his stuff.

The original productions of Follies, Pacific Overtures and Merrily were the 3 greatest new musicals I saw and was totally floored by all 3.

A couple that haven't been mentioned:

Go and pack my suits! My boots! Pack everything I own that shoots! (Carl-Magnus, ALNM)

A detente, A detente/Zat's ze only thing we want/Leave ze grain, leave ze train/Put champagne among your imports/Tell each man zat Japan/Can't be bothered giving him ports/While she's in a tizzy/Dizzy wiz ze mutual detente (French admiral, Pacific Overtures)

I may be getting some words wrong, but I love old Mrs. Armfeldt's

I'll receive them in the red room,

And regale them with a feast.

Then retire to my bedroom,

And I shan't reappear until Tuesday at least.

How obscure, R29!

Why not your WORST Sondheim lyric? Start with anything from "Sunday in the …."

Worst? I think the lyrics to I Feel Pretty are fairly inane.

R32 isn't pretty, witty, or gay.

Loud or lewd or laddy daddy

Everything to everybody!

Smoke on your pipe and put that in!

When asked to write a lyric with the unrhymable word "silver" as a rhyming element, Sondheim replied:

To rhyme a word like "silver",

Or any rhymeless rhyme,

Requires only will, ver-

Bosity and time.

R35 That is a surprisingly bad rhyme for Sondheim.

He often talks about how important it is to have a perfect rhyme. He derides Lorenz Hart for being sloppy with his rhymes.

But "that in" does not rhyme with "hat tan"

It does rhyme, R37. NYers don't say "Manhattaaan." We say "Manhattin." Truly.

Too many to count right now; will continue to think of. One springs to mind: "...the choice may have been mistaken; the choosing was not. You have to move on."

("Move On"; Sunday in the Park with George; "Dot" (but you all KNEW that, right??

We've no time to sit and dither, while her withers wither with her...UGGH so perfect I can't.

From "Follies" (of COURSE, LOL): Sally, in "In Buddy's Eyes": "So, life is ducky and time goes flying and I'm so lucky I feel like dying."

Packs a punch.

My favorite Sondheim musical (probably a minority opinion??): "Pacific Overtures" - "Bowler Hat": (forget the character's name, sorry):

"No bird exploring in the sky explores as well as I the corners of my life. One must accommodate the times... as one lives them. One must remember that."

I said the man for me would have a castle, A man of means he'd be, a man of fame. And then I met a man who hadn't any, Without a penny, to his name.

I had to go and fall for so much less than What I had learned from all the magazines. I should be good and sore. What am I happy for? I guess the man means more Than the means.

Intro to "So Many People" from "Saturday Night."

Sublime.

AND:

From "Merrily":

"Opening Doors"; the producer character (Jason Alexander, excellent at a young age in the original (yes, I'm OLD):

"Sorry, boys; maybe it's me... But that's just not a hummable, hummable, hummable melody Write more, work hard; leave your name with the girl Less avant-garde; leave your name with the girl Just write a plain old melody-de-de-de-de-de (De-de-de-de-de-de?)"

R38 except that line is sung by a Puerto Rican with a heavy Spanish accent, so your point is moot.

R36 LES MIZ remedied that in "On My Own": "In the rain the pavement shines like silver / All the lights are misty in the river..."

All the staff in my building are Puerto Rican, some with heavy accents. They say "Manhattin." It's probably the first word they learn Even Luis, whose accent is so thick I never have any idea what he's saying, pronounces it "Manhattin."

R31 mine would be: "An old lady is waltzing in her flat/Waltzing with her cat! "

Forgot to mention that R48 is from DO I HEAR A WALTZ?

R47 I don't need your life story.

That the curse got place

And the place got cursed

In the first place!

*placed

This song helped me get through my breakup,

And though I'll think of you, I guess

Until the day I die

I think I miss you less and less

As everyday goes by

[Lovett] What's my secret? Frankly, dear, forgive my candor Family secret, all to do with herbs Things like being careful with your coriander That's what makes the gravy grander

[Customers] More hot pies!

Especially love the way Landbury says "Herbs" with the H instead of herbs without. Using the man's name - brilliant.

" When you been through Hebert and J. Edgar Hoover anything else is a laugh"

" I dreamed it for you, June / It wasn't for me Herbie/ And if it wasn't for me/ then where would you be/ Miss Gypsy Rose Lee"

" I know the truth, the truth is hardly what I need / I read to dream"

And for those of you who doubt Hammerstein as a lyricist of first rate grace here-" I am starry eyed and vaguely discontented/ Like a nightingale without a song to sing"

Most friends fade

Or they don't make the grade

New ones are quickly made

And in a pinch, sure, they'll do

R53 me, too! That verse was very soothing for me after my own breakup in 2011, which came out of nowhere. I was totally blindsided. He just left without a word. We didn't even have a fight or anything. Our last convo had to do with him getting too close to the drive-thru ATM and almost knocking off his sideview mirror (but thankfully no scratches). We had a laugh about it later, when he recounted it to me. Then the next day, we both went to work like normal, but when I returned, all his stuff was gone. He must've come home early from work (I think he'd called out and just pretended to go, only to turn back around once I had left) and packed everything right then and there. Didn't even leave a note. I spent the evening and the next few weeks trying to get a hold of him, to no avail. I tried contacting his family and friends, but they all 'didn't want to get in the middle of it.' No one was very helpful, and I was worrying myself silly wondering what I'd done.

Anyway, it took me two years to finally realize he wasn't ever coming back, and that specific verse played in my head often. Now, 5 years later, I've moved on. I don't even get sad thinking of him. Like the song said, I did start missing him less and less over time, until I don't anymore. I never thought I'd come to this point. I was such a mess 2011-2013, and even then I was still wistful for another year.

But not to threadjack....

That might be effective my body's all right.

But not in persepctive and not in the light.

Some people can thrive and bloom

Living life in a living room

The whole of "Now" from ALNM is a master class in rhyming.

And Stendhal would ruin/The plan of attack/As there isn't much blue in/The Red And The Black/DeMaupassant's candor/Would cause her dismay/The Brontes are grander/But not very gay/Her taste is much blander/I'm sorry to say/But is Hans Christian Ander-/Sen ever risqué?

The splitting of Andersen slays me.

And the shooting should be pleasant if the weather's not too rough.

Happy Birthday it's your present, and you having been getting out nearly enough.

She sits / At the Ritz / With her splits / Of Mumm’s / And starts to pine / For a stein / With her Village chums / But with a Schlitz / In her mitts / Down at Fitz- / Roy’s Bar, she thinks of the Ritz, oh / It’s so schizo.

when I tell him I think he's the end/he giggles along with his friend.

[quote][R31] mine would be: "An old lady is waltzing in her flat/Waltzing with her cat! "

As opposed to:

At ... my humble flat ... it's just my cat ... a bed and a chair.

From Anyone Can Whistle

What's hard is simple.

What's natural come hard.

Maybe you could show me how to let go,

Lower my guard,

Learn to be free.

Maybe if you whistle,

Whistle for me.

All of the peasants throw rocks in my presence.

"Clothes don't make the man", God knows, But I wouldn't be surprised if that man made those clothes.

And from Passion: A love as pure as breath As permanent as death Implacable as stone A love that, like a knife, Has cut into a life I wanted left alone.

(Smoke on your pipe and put that in, R27)

Does raisins rhyme with liaisons ?

To help us survive/Being alive

You hold her thinking I'm not alone/You're still alone

one he once changed to ill effect was-(as referenced above)- YOURE NOT GOOD YOURE NOT BAD YOURE JUST NICE

His besetting vice is that he allows himself to be too clever-clever sometimes ("Now" from ALNM, which someone above extols, always makes me cringe at how show-off-y it is). But when he's at his best, he's terrific.

But I hugely disagree he's a better lyricist than Hammerstein. HE thinks he is, but it's true as someone said above that Hammerstein can have a kind of naturalness that Sondheim somehow lacks--from "I've Told Ev'ry Little Star" from Jerome Kern "Music in the Air" (note that Linda Scott slightly changes this lyric for her teenager-in-love version from the early 60s):

Friends ask me if I'm in love,

I always answer "yes."

Might as well confess--

If I don't... they guess.

More terrific, and very graceful, Hammerstein--from "Nobody Else But Me" (from the revised 1946 version of "Show Boat"):

He thinks I'm grand, that's grand for me

I get a thrill knowing he gets a thrill

When I sit on his knee

Walking on the shore, swimming in the sea

When I am with him,

I'm glad that girl who's with him

Is nobody else but me

When he holds me close, close as we can be

I tell the lad that

I'm grateful and I'm glad that

I'm nobody else but me .

I agree about Hammerstein R71

I could never stand Sondheim's sing songy talkie lyrics. My fav is Company because it's so bad.

Sondheim is way overrated.

[quote]He derides Lorenz Hart for being sloppy with his rhymes.

My bag is packed

I've got my act

So all aboard, come on, let's go!

R71 one advantage that Hammerstein had over Sondheim was that Hammerstein was able to adapt to the characters, meaning that he could write lyrics for all types of vernaculars, be they from Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, England, Polynesian, Siamese, etc. Like you said, Sondheim is often too clever for his own good, and he often gives his characters the same clever lyrics, no matter if they're aristocrats or servants. In fact, one of his regrets are the lyrics to "I Feel Pretty," because he thinks a newly-arrived immigrant from Puerto Rico wouldn't sing something like "It's alarming how charming I feel," so at least he's got some self-awareness but chooses to ignore it in order to be praised for his cleverness. If Hammerstein had written the lyrics to WEST SIDE STORY, Maria and the Sharks would sound as close to Puerto Ricans as he could manage.

"The Lonely Goatherd" was proof that Hammerstein could be almost as self-conscious in his rhyme schemes as Sondheim. But again, it serves the setting, the time period, the characters and the story (though it's used in different places in the play and the film) rather than just the lyricist's reputation.

I always liked the line "have a dish, have a fork, have a fish, have a pork" from "Mr. Goldstone". Makes me giggle.

R76's wistful "If Hammerstein had written the lyrics to West Side Story..." overlooks the fact that Sondheim did this at TWENTY-SIX. At twenty-nine, Hammerstein was HELPING with the lyrics for Rose Marie. (Do you really want to compare "Maria" with "When I'm Calling You-hoo-hoo-hoo, hoo-hoo-hoo"?) A fair comparison is between Hammerstein's Asian characters and Sondheim's Japanese in Pacific Overtures. Now the void between the two of them is gaping.

It's total BS that Sondheim doesn't write for character. Let's hear Mrs Lovett sing "Green Finch", or the Sharks doing "Sergeant Krupke". Reverse Anne's and Charlotte's lines in "Every Day a Little Death", or swap Sally's and Phyllis's songs in Follies. One of the reasons he's had so few recording hits is that you take any one of his songs away from its character and it loses much of its power. It's also total BS that all the songs are clever-clever. "Why Can't it Be Like it Was?" from "Merrily" doesn't contain any rhymes at all, and many of his best songs sound like speech except for the mandatory line-end rhymes. ("Today, the minutes seem like hours, the hours go so slowly, and still the sky is light...")

Since when is a grouse graceful?

R79 is disingenuous for using Hammerstein's worst work as representative of his overall work.

No, R81, my point is that R76 is doing that to Sondheim by comparing his first mainstage piece with Hammerstein at his peak.

No he isn't. You're just trying to make Hammerstein look like a hack when he clearly wasn't. It's a disingenuous tactic of Sondheimites: do everything you can to make other lyricists look bad in order to make The Almighty Sondheim look good.

"Personable" and "Coercin' a bull", come on, that's pretty fucking spectacular.

That's actually pretty weak and forced, R84.

I think Lin is better than them all!!

Is no one bothered that grammatically it should be "Nice is different from good'" not "Nice is different THAN good"?

and he doesn't even NEED a rhyming dictionary!!

Lin ^ that is

Oh Jesus Christ, not everything has to be one thing or another. Its not a contest. It's perfectly permissible to like both Sondheim and Hammerstein.

[quote] I think Lin is better than them all!!

You wouldn't say that if I were still alive.

R87 it is "Nice is different than good."

No, "than" requires a comparative of degree not of category.

"Sooner or later you're gonna be fine Sooner or later you're gonna be mine"

[quote] "Sooner or later you're gonna be fine Sooner or later you're gonna be mine"

Before that there were two songs of note called "Sooner or Later;" one was sung by Hattie McDaniel in [italic]Song of the South[/italic], the other was a hit on record for The Grass Roots in 1971.

In the movies Life is finer, Life is cleaner, But in Brooklyn It's a minor Misdemeanor

First you're another sloe-eyed vamp

Then someone's mother, then you're camp

I'm lovely

Absolutely lovely

Lovely is the one thing I

Can do

[quote] (Do you really want to compare "Maria" with "When I'm Calling You-hoo-hoo-hoo, hoo-hoo-hoo"?)

How do you know he was responsible for that particular lyric, if he was only helping Otto Harbach?

Well, if we want to talk bad grammar: "If Momma was married we'd live in a house..."

Otto Harbach needed all the help he could get. Too bad Viagra wasn't invented until after he died.

R93 I meant the actual line IS "Nice is different than good."

Sondheim's best lyrics are in "Into the Woods": "I have no fear nor no one should. / The woods are just trees, the trees are just wood..."

His worst lyrics are in "Sunday in the Park with George": "For them we rush,/ Wash and brush,/ Wipe and wax!" "Franz, relax!"

And its jewels broke free And they never came down, But they stayed there as stars In the shape of a crown. And they're there every night As a sign of our love, And it fills me with joy And it fills me with pain.

Packs a punch, gets me every time.

Not even figs; RAISINS!

What do we think of [italic]The Frogs[/italic]? No one ever talks about that anywhere. How bad could it have been?

I've never seen The Frogs but the score is good and Ariadne is one of the greatest songs he has ever written.

R97

So you get campy as you grow older ??

R82 I used "I feel Pretty" because Sondheim himself has been critical of that. But even in "A Little Night Music" (written in his forties), he has the maid Petra sing: "It's a wink and a wiggle and a giggle in the grass/And I'll trip the light fandango/A pinch and a diddle in the middle of what passes by/It's a very short road/From the pinch and the punch/To the paunch and the pouch/And the pension..."

It's a little too cutesy and not at all how a maid would speak.

Every day a little death.

R109 So what if his lyrics are a bit campy.

[quote]It's a little too cutesy and not at all how a maid would speak.

That's not true; some maids incorporate showtune lyrics into everyday conversation.

R111 my point was that, though Sondheim is a master at rhyming, he doesn't know how to write for various or even simple characters, unlike Hammerstein, who could use various dialects, vernacular, and slang in one show, e.g. SHOW BOAT. But Sondheim's characters all tend to sound like wordsmiths, even if they're supposed to be the bottom of the rung.

R65- " Anyone Can Whistle " is my favorite song

I don't know how anyone can be too clever for their own good. That sounds ridiculous like the King telling Mozart he has too many notes in his piece. It's a sign of being green- eyed. With such a lack of clever writing these days I am grateful for Sondheim. Hammerstein wrote for the character to move forward in the play. Sondheim goes deeper into their minds. Hammerstein was writing to send a message to the audience. Sondheim, much like, Woody Allen, doesn't care if you get it or not. He expects you to keep up or pity you. I respect that. Often music is written so a twelve year old can get it. Sondheim is no Disney.

[quote]But Sondheim's characters all tend to sound like wordsmiths, even if they're supposed to be the bottom of the rung.

This to infinity.

[quote]It's a sign of being green- eyed.

Accusing critics of jealousy is one of the biggest red flags of a desperate fangurl.

R114 Imagine if he and Woody had collaborated.

[quote]Imagine if he and Woody had collaborated.

They would create something so esoteric and obscurantist that even they wouldn't get it.

[quote]Sondheim is no Disney.

You're right. "When You Wish Upon A Star" is more melodic, beautiful, memorable and tuneful than any melody Sondheim ever composed or ever will compose.

R118 It's not about the melody with Sondheim. It's not pop.

[quote]So you get campy as you grow older ??

If you play Lily Munster on TV in your middle age, then yes, you get campy as you grow older.

R120 Sheldon Cooper is young and campy.

"Well, if we want to talk bad grammar: "If Momma was married we'd live in a house..." " WELL, it is sung by two juveniles with little to no formal education...

[quote]It's not about the melody with Sondheim.

Is that why, although he is perfectly capable of writing well-crafted pop songs, more often than not he cops out and writes tedious obscurantist BS. I also consider Arnold Schoenberg's "music" one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated on the public. It sounds like a monkey pounding on a piano.

[quote] It's not pop.

Oh, yes it is. Plenty of pop singers have covered his songs.

[quote]WELL, it is sung by two juveniles with little to no formal education...

They're not exactly hillbillies, though.

R123 That's his only song you can hum to.

"Does raisins rhyme with liaisons ? " Gingold made it work brilliantly, yes. Lansbury, not so much.

And r124, how many youngsters--hell, how many fully grown adults--do you know that would ACTUALLY say If mama WERE married? Not many. It may be grammatically correct, but it's not correct for the characters.

[quote]"Does raisins rhyme with liaisons ? "

Elaine Stritch made it rhyme exactly, to the hilarity of the audience. But it doesn't have to rhyme exactly. Near rhymes can be effective too. Grammar doesn't count at all in lyric writing. Lyric writing is making music with words. If it sounds good, it is good.

I love the line from "Love, They Say" in Forum, "I pine, I blush, I squeak, I squawk. / Today I woke too weak to walk" for its sheer cleverness, although I don't think young men really wake too weak to walk as a result of being in love.

I think Liaisons is hilarious, but my favorite rhymes have to be:

I acquired some position Plus a tiny Titian...

and

Who, when things got rather touchy, Deeded me a duchy...

[quote]That's his only song you can hum to.

My point exactly.

R127

Oh my God, R54! I never thought of that! Hysterical.

[quote]Especially love the way Landbury says "Herbs" with the H instead of herbs without. Using the man's name - brilliant.

Funny, but they do pronounce the H in herbs in the UK.

^ As Eddie Izzard says, "Because it has an 'H' in it."

"If the tea the Shogun drank will/Serve to keep the Shogun tranquil..." -- Pacific Overtures

R132 still, assuming "Herb" was a common name in that place and setting, it's pretty brilliant.

It IS all to do with Herbs... and Williams, and Stanleys, and Davids...

[quote]^ As Eddie Izzard says, "Because it has an 'H' in it."

So does hono(u)r, but it's silent, even in the UK.

Rick, with a silent 'P'.

[quote]That's his only song you can hum to.

Apart from 'Anyone Can Whistle', 'Comedy Tonight', 'Losing My Mind', 'Old Friends', 'Good Thing Going', 'Not While I'm Around'...

[italic]Pacific Overtures[/italic] is like [italic]The King & I[/italic] if every song were "Western People Funny."

[quote]Funny, but they do pronounce the H in herbs in the UK.

So does Martha Stewart.

R139 Martha Stewart is a pretentious twat.

[quote]Martha Stewart is a pretentious twat.

What show is that from? Evening Primrose?

The Ben I'll never be. Who remembers him? that line just always haunted me (Follies btw)

I knew right away he was insane, oh, this is my husband, we're from Maine

[quote]Is no one bothered that grammatically it should be "Nice is different from good'" not "Nice is different THAN good"?

They're complaining about Marie and Petra talking too purty for their characters and you want Little Red to parse her pronouns perfectly?

" Have a child for warmth, and a baker for bread, and a prince for whatever"

Quote[obscurantist]

Huh?

What is the consensus on Bounce/Road Show ?

The less said about Bounce the better- it's his "Allegro".

[quote]it's his "Allegro".

His Allegro is his Allegro.

Sondheim crafts his lyrics too carefully as brilliant as he is.

You hear a genius working long and hard and sweating bullets.

Hammerstein grabs you and shakes you without you being aware of it.

At least not until the end.

And at 32 he wrote the most innovative musical of the 20th century.

And before he was 50 he wrote the second most innovative of the 20th century.

I think at times Sondheim is a wee bit jealous.

Sondheim's biggest hits don't even have the sheer enormous popularity that many of the musicals Hammerstein worked on had.

Even Rose Marie though forgotten today had 3 films made from it. Show Boat as well had 3.

West Side Story is his biggest hit in terms of commercial success and that he has to share not only with the composer(as Hammerstein of course had to do) but also with Laurents and Robbins.

And ultimately with Robert Wise because it is the film that made it a legend.

A number of Hammerstein musicals were already legends before they were ever made into films.

Good music is not for the masses r150

[quote]West Side Story is his biggest hit in terms of commercial success and that he has to share not only with the composer(as Hammerstein of course had to do) but also with Laurents and Robbins.

What about GYPSY? That gets revived ad nauseam. In the past 13 years there's been two major Broadway revivals and one West End revival. There's even talk of transferring the WE revival to Broadway.

How did Sondheim contribute to Candide ?

R151 that's why Kern and Rodgers wrote shit.

In order to appeal to the masses.

They wouldn't have had their success any other way.

ALW caters to the masses. And do we love him ?

Are you really comparing the commercial success of Gypsy to WSS?

Are you kidding?

As a film WSS was an international blockbuster(for its time)success.

Gypsy as great a musical as it is was a piker in terms of money and popularity.

Follies(I love it) keeps getting revived but who in hell outside of Sondheim has ever made any money from it?

You're always sorry You're always grateful You're always wondering what might been Then she walks in

And still you're sorry And still you're grateful And still you wonder And still you doubt And she goes out

Everything's different Nothing's changed Only maybe slight rearranged

Who is this slab of prime rib?

Nothing can harm you, not while I'm around,

Nothing can harm you, no sir, not while I'm around,

Demons may charm you with a smile, for a while, but in time,

Nothing's gonna harm you, not while I'm around.

Sorry...

Nothing's gonna harm you, not while I'm around

Nothing's gonna harm you, no not while I'm around,

Demons may charm you with a smile, for a while, but in time,

Nothing's gonna harm you, not while I'm around.

there was a time I'd have agreed with R151---but as years go by, they're a sort of haze and I now agree with R150

"Here's the politician, so oily It's served with a doily, Have one! Put it on a bun. Well, you never know if it's going to run!"

"Then actor, That's compacter! Yes, and always arrives overdone!"

"The history of the world, my sweet -- Is who gets eaten, and who gets to eat! But fortunately, it's also clear That ev'rybody goes down well with beer!"

this is sondheim right? The whole song always made me laugh. These are few of my favourite bits.

R182 yes, Sondheim wrote SWEENEY TODD. I was so pissed that in the Depp/HBC movie, they abridged it and sang it with a straight, deadpan face. Burton removed any humor in it.

It only takes a moment to be loved a whole life long.

[quote]It's a disingenuous tactic of Sondheimites

I expect that gets colloquially pronounced as "Sodomites," at least half the time

From "Passion"

Loving you is not a choice it's who I am

R164, that's Jerry Herman from "Hello Dolly"

Hammerstein's lyrics are often wonderful but the books of the scores have dated, i.e. South Pacific, King and I, Carousel, Flower Drum Song, so the songs are more enjoyable out of contexts like Billy slapping his woman, the colonialism of Anna and a song like "Western People Funny," which is usually cut.

I'm glad to have both Hammerstein and Sondheim, especially given the way they are personally connected. (Do we know how Mrs. Hammerstein enjoyed having young Stevie around?)

What, leave you, leave you? How could I leave you?

What would I do on my own? Putting thoughts of you aside

In the south of France, would I think of suicide?

Darling, shall we dance? Could I live through the pain

On a terrace in Spain? Would it pass? It would pass

Could I bury my rage with a boy half your age

In the grass? Bet your ass

WHY, WHEN I SPEAK, DOES HE VANISH?

OO-OO-OO-OO-OO-OO-OO.

WHY IS HE ACTING SO CLANNISH?

OO-OO-OO-OO-OO-OO-OO.

I WISH I UNDERSTOOD SPANISH.

WHEN I TELL HIM I THINK HE'S THE END,

HE GIGGLES A LOT WITH HIS FRIEND.

WHY ARE HIS TROUSERS VERMILLION?

HIS TROUSERS ARE VERMILLION.

WHY DOES HE CLAIM HE'S CASTILIAN?

HE THAYTH THAT HE'TH CATHTILIAN.

WHY DO HIS FRIENDS CALL HIM LILLIAN?

AND I HEAR AT THE END OF THE WEEK

HE'S LEAVING TO START A BOUTIQUE.

R150 is actually correct . People worship " The Sound of Music" or " The King and I", " Show Boat "changed the face of theatre. Sondheim just made musicals more depressing by his clever brilliance but he never changed it like " Hamilton " is doing now. Sondheim in many ways is a link to Hammerstein but a sadder, less inclusive composer. I sure Oscar would asked Sondheim " Don't any of your characters end up better off? Where is the arc of compassion?"

I presume he won't be writing anymore. Who is his likely successor?

[quote] Nothing's gonna harm you, not while I'm around/ Nothing's gonna harm you, no not while I'm around,/ Demons may charm you with a smile, for a while, but in time,/ Nothing's gonna harm you, not while I'm around.

That's not exactly an example of great lyrics, as nice as the song itself is when sung.

Some of the examples here have been dreadful. I mean for someone like Sondheim.

[quote]Don't any of your characters end up better off?

Bobby has a breakthrough in 'Company', hence 'Being Alive.'

[quote]Sondheim just made musicals more depressing by his clever brilliance but he never changed it like "Hamilton" is doing now.

So he did then 'change the face of theatre' on your reckoning by making musicals 'more depressing.' All that 'clever brilliance' was evidently dedicated only to a career promoting depression.

Sondheim has often said he's a frustrated playwright, and can only work well when in collaboration with a writer and subject that inspires him. (Experts on DL will be able to cite the time SS took on a project his heart wasn't in, and it showed, and he regretted it.)

Great American plays such as 'Streetcar', 'Salesman' and 'Virginia Woolf' aren't 'The Sound Of Music', but they are compelling enduring works of art, if doubtless 'depressing' to many who want happy endings.

No reason Sondheim shouldn't be true to himself as an artist - and expand the territory of musical theatre - by similarly exploring dark and difficult themes. His 'clever brilliance' is reward enough, with incidentally plenty of departures from sadness.

It remains to be seen how 'Hamilton' will change 'the face of theatre.' Perhaps Miranda will indeed now have as long, varied and distinctive a career as Sondheim. It'll be interesting to follow Miranda's dedication to inclusivity during the course of his next ten original works.

[quote]I presume he won't be writing anymore.

Sondheim is working on a musical adaptation of two films by Luis Bunuel.

Sondheim's speech impediment is also disturbing.

Life is often so unpleasant. You musy know that, as a Peasant.

Threepenny is very dark and depressing.

But it's musical lushness and brilliance are exhilarating.

Sondheim could never come up with a tune as good as Mack the Knife but god knows he tries.

Decadent, sophisticated and captivating in a popular mode all at the same time.

A Little Priest is just wheel spinning in comparison. Sondheim working beyond his capacity for black humor.

R175 how do you mean?

Sondheim's a clever lyricist, but his music is too sing-songy, meaning that the people sound like they're making it up as they go along. Very talky.

It must be the heat. Or some rare disease. Or too much to eat! Or too much to eat. Or maybe it's fleas

Every niights a party where the fun never ends. You can circle the globe with my circle of friends.

I'll have to add to the chorus of "nice is different than good." The reason it resonated so much with me is because I was in a toxic workplace where the prevailing mantra was to hire "nice people" -- in other words, sycophants who would not question the incompetence of the leadership.

"Poop your pants! Poop your pants! I come from Leeds"

Somewhere there's a someone who's a someone for me.

R181 I beleve that's Kander and Ebb.

Right you are, R185. It's from "How Lucky Can You Get," from Funny Lady. You can hear Streisand's voice in the line.

“Tonight, tonight, it all began tonight!” -WSS, “But I just go on thinking and sweating. And cursing and crying. And turning and reaching. And waking and dying.” -Merrily We Roll Along, “I chose and my world was shaken, so what? The choice may have been mistaken, the choosing was not.” -SITPWG, “Loving you is not a choice, it’s who I am.” -PASSION, “Careful the things you say, children will listen.” -ITW, “Everything’s coming up roses, this time for me!” -GYPSY, “Somebody crowd me with love. Somebody force me to care. Somebody let me come through, I’ll always be there, as frightened as you, to help us survive being alive.” -COMPANY,

And everything I ever dreamed I'd be,

The best I ever thought of me,

Is every minute there to see,

In Buddy's eyes.

Off the top of my head it's something like that. Incredibly moving.

Could you imagine if his music were half as good?

bump for more Pacific Overtures:

If the tea the Shogun drank will Serve to keep the Shogun tranquil

Keep away from her, send for Chino. This is not the Ma- -ria we know!

For R189: Please Hello/Is bringing Czar's request/Braving snow with letter to protest/Since we know you trading with the West/You might at least (Don't touch the coat!) start looking East/Or closer West/Well, farther North/Are we the fourth?/I feel depressed (Don't touch the coat!) -- Russian Admiral, "Please Hello"

The "Don't touch the coat!" makes me laugh every time.

"Heh lady, aren't you Whoozit? Wow, what a looker you were!

Or, better yet, Sorry I thought you were Whoozit. Whatever happened to her?"

"Could be? Who knows? There's something due any day, I will know right away,

Soon as it shows. I've got a feeling there's a miracle due, gonna come true, coming to me,

Could it be? Yes it could? Something's coming, something good. If I can wait!"

In the whole of the great human race, Mrs. Lovett, there are two kinds of men and Only two ; one ..... And one with his foot On the other man's face We all deserve to die , even you Mrs. Lovett, even I For the lives of the wicked should be made brief, for the rest of us death will be a relief..

A boy like that -- he KEEL your brother!

I don't know if WSS should count.

It is well known that Bernstein wrote a fair portion of the lyrics.

But being in a generous mood he gave Sondheim full credit.

Sondheim was incredibly grateful.

If he had written the overwhelming majority of the lyrics he would have been you better fucking believe I get full credit.

He also would have demanded full royalties as the lyricist which he didn't do and when the soundtrack lp became an international bestseller he had forfeited a ton of money which he readily admits.

Nixon was smart in demanding a percentage of royalties which was graciously given by Bernstein.

I hope she also got a percentage of MFL because that was another huge bestseller. She is pretty great on it.

Weren't we chuckleheads then?

What is that?

It's priest, have a little priest Is it really good? Sir, it's too good, at least Then again, they don't commit sins of the flesh So it's pretty fresh

Awful lot of fat only where it sat Haven't you got poet, or something like that? No, y'see, the trouble with poet is 'Ow do you know it's deceased? Try the priest

Heavenly Not as hearty as bishop, perhaps But then again Not as bland as curate, either

And good for business too Always leaves you wantin' more Trouble is We only get it on Sundays

Lawyer's rather nice If it's for a price Order something else, though to follow Since no one should swallow it twice

Anything that's lean Well then, if you're British and loyal You might enjoy Royal Marine Anyway, it's clean

Though of course it tastes of wherever it's been Is that squire on the fire? Mercy, no sir, look closer You'll notice it's grocer

Looks thicker, more like vicar No, it has to be grocer, it's green

The history of the world, my love Save a lot of graves Do a lot of relatives favors Is those below serving those up above

Everybody shaves So there should be plenty of flavors How gratifying for once to know That those above will serve those down below

Now let's see, here we've got tinker Something pinker Tailor? Paler, Butler? Subtler Potter? Hotter, Locksmith?

Lovely bit of clerk Maybe for a lark

Then again there's sweep If you want it cheap And you like it dark Try the financier, peak of his career

That looks pretty rank Well, he drank, it's a bank Cashier, never really sold Maybe it was old Have you any Beadle?

Next week, so I'm told Beadle isn't bad till you smell it and Notice 'ow, well, it's been greased Stick to priest

Now then, this might be a little bit stringy But then of course it's fiddle player No, this isn't fiddle player, it's piccolo player 'Ow can you tell? It's piping hot then blow on it first

The history of the world, my sweet Oh, Mr. Todd, ooh, Mr. Todd What does it tell? Is who gets eaten, and who gets to eat

And, Mr. Todd, too, Mr. Todd Who gets to sell But fortunately, it's also clear That, but everybody goes down well with beer

Since marine doesn't appeal to you 'Ow about rear admiral? Too salty, I prefer general With or without his privates? 'With' is extra

What is that? It's fop Finest in the shop And we have some shepherd's pie peppered With actual shepherd on top

And I've just begun Here's the politician, so oily It's served with a doily Have one, put it on a bun Well, you never know if it's going to run

Try the friar Fried, it's drier No, the clergy is really Too coarse and too mealy

Then actor, that's compacter Yes, and always arrives overdone I'll come again When you have judge on the menu

Wait, true, we don't have judge yet But we've got something you might fancy even better What's that? Executioner

Have charity towards the world, my pet Yes, yes, I know, my love We'll take the customers that we can get High-born and low, my love

We'll not discriminate great from small No, we'll serve anyone Meaning anyone And to anyone at all

Ta-ta, good-bye, you'll find us at Tony's

Had Heebie-Jeebies For Beebe's Bathysphere. I had to sing this shit lyric 8 times a week.

As if you had anything better to do at the time, Yvonne/R199. Revived what was left of your post-Munsters career.

Pro-choice's doom

Turned my womb

Into a tomb.

Maria

Say it loud and there's music playing

Say it soft and it's almost like praying

Year after year

Older and older

Side by side

Not if you consider the alternative, R203

"But no one thought to query her superior exterior!"

Exclusive you! Elusive you! Will any person ever get the juice of you?

I also love..."those go away I need you/come to me I'll kill you/darlng I'll do anything to keep you with me till ya/tell me that you love me oh you did now beat it will ya....BLUES!!"

And what is the alternative r204 ?

Among so many....

Wear your hair down and a flower, Don't use make-up, dress in white. She'll look older by the hour, and be hopelessly shattered by Saturday night!

[quote]Somewhere there's a someone who's a someone for me.

That's Ira Gershwin, but you're just teasing us.

Gotcha!

Yes R 13. And. You lied to me. No, no, I never lied. ....... Never said she drank the poison ....Id be twice the wife she was... I love you.... Mrs. Lovett how I ever lived without you I'll never know.... Because I love you...., S C R E A M S

Most friends fade

Or they don't make the grade

New one's are quickly made

And in a pinch, sure, they'll do

New friends pour

Through the revolving door

Maybe there's one that's more

If you find one, that'll do

[quote]Also, I cringe at "Shall we still be together with our arms around each other" and "On the clear understanding that this kind of thing can happen" from "Shall We Dance?" Sondheim, who's an expert at internal rhymes, would've found a way to rhyme 'together'/'each other' and 'understanding'/'happen.'

Which may be why Hammerstein was a better lyricist. He could be clever without having to beat you over the head with it:

"Little girl, you are safe with me:

I can protect what's mine;

I am a sturdy maple tree

And you're my clinging vine!"

"Woods are just full of maple trees,

Cedar and oak and pine;

Let me look them over, please,

And then I'll let you know

If you have a show."

More excellent Hammerstein:

"Though you're warned against a roué ruining your reputation

When you played around the one-night trade around the great big nation

Wild old man who give you jewels and sables only live in Aesop's fables

Life upon the wicked stage is nothin' for a girl!"

No one is as witty as Sondheim

I love that lyric, r214.

I think "Showboat" is my favorite score ever, it's between that and "The King and I", both Hammerstein.

this one

"Nice is different than good."

It's so true. I think of it often.

That the curse got placed

And the place got cursed

In the first place !

R216 Hammerstein (a lyricist) had nothing to do with the music of either SHOWBOAT or THE KING AND I. The music for the former was composed by Jerome Kern and the latter was Richard Rodgers, of course.

1) People who don't understand his superb, rich and stunning music are philistines, douche bags, musical idiots and have tiny, misshapen penises.

2) People who mention Lin Manuel Miranda in the same sentence as Sondheim or Hammerstein have a Trump-level understanding of the world.

Sondheim works better with an all male cast.

[quote] 1) People who don't understand his superb, rich and stunning music are philistines, douche bags, musical idiots and have tiny, misshapen penises.

You tell 'em, Mary!

[quote]People who mention Lin Manuel Miranda in the same sentence as Sondheim or Hammerstein have a Trump-level understanding of the world.

It must be sad to see the world carry on without you.

Why did Hammerstein have this weird obsession with birds?

R225 He liked how they prayed.

[quote]I also consider Arnold Schoenberg's "music" one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated on the public. It sounds like a monkey pounding on a piano.

Well. You certainly told...someone.

R220, the score of a musical includes both the lyrics and the music. Hammerstein did not compose music, but he is the co-creator of the scores to both Show Boat and The King and I.

Pompous Sondheim expert and all round ass Alan Scott at ATC will tells us all what we need to think and then thread closed. He really is that wonderful.

From PASSION...

For now I'm seeing love like none I've ever known.

A love as pure as breath, as permanent as death.

Implacable as stone

A love that, like a knife, has cut into a life

I wanted left alone.

A love I may regret, but one I can't forget.

I don't know how I let you so far inside my mind,

But there you are and there you will stay

How could I ever wish you away?

I see now I was blind.

And should you die tomorrow,

Another thing I see.

Your love will live in me.

R225 Larks, in particular. Off the top of my head:

"... Like a lark who is learning to pray!"

"At the end of the storm, there's a golden sky and the sweet silver song of a lark..."

Larks never will, you know, when they're captive Teach me to be more adaptive

As I've/Often stated/It's intolerable being tolerated.

More Oscar birds:

I am starry-eyed and vaguely discontented/Like a nightingale without a song to sing

I haven't seen a crocus or a rosebud/or a robin on the wing

(two from the same song!)

I hear the human race is falling on its face, and hasn't very far to go.

But every whippoorwill is selling me a bill, and telling me it just ain't so.

Talking and praying birds: Anything for a rhyme!

[quote]It remains to be seen how 'Hamilton' will change 'the face of theatre.'

If anything, I think HAMILTON has made it possible for people of color to get cast in non-traditional roles. Granted, color-blind casting existed before HAMILTON, but I think this was the first time that it was overwhelmingly welcomed/accepted by the paying public. If HAMILTON had flopped, I think it would've been a step back in that direction. But since it became a phenomenon (not just in the US), I think it has encouraged other (new) musicals/plays to follow suit. Hell, Disney (who has cast their Broadway productions to resemble their animated counterparts) cast a black man as Kirstoff in their recent Broadway adaptation of FROZEN despite the character being blond and blue-eyed in the beloved film. You'd better believe it that Disney would not have dared to attempt that if the non-traditional casting of the Founding Fathers in HAMILTON hadn't been embraced by the public. Even the recent Harry Potter play took its cue from HAMILTON when hiring a black woman to play Hermione. I think we'll be seeing more of this until there's an oversaturation and then the inevitable backlash.

R237 The non-traditional casting of the Founding Fathers in HAMILTON hasn't been embraced by "the public".

It was embraced by the comfortably-rich, middle-class, holier-than-thou, Virtue-Signallers who can afford to go to EXPENSIVE live theatre..

I despise this: What say you?

The only Sondheim lyric I remember is 'The world is just an address" from WSS back in 1956.

I remember NONE of Sondheim's music because he is NOT a musician!