Furor Over Binge Drinking Advice to Young Women
Emily Yoffe (Slate's Dear Prudence) wrote an article a couple of days ago advising college aged women not to drive heavily as a way of reducing their risk of being sexually assaulted. I didn't think much of the article in so much as I thought it was just a well-written article advocating good common sense practices. But boy, Yoffe is being pushed through the wood chipper by other writers screaming that she is "blaming the victim". IMO she is doing no such thing at all.
Salon, The Atlantic, HuffPo and others are piling on. I'm stunned.
|by Anonymous||reply 110||10/19/2013|
Isn't it furore? And maybe fury.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||10/17/2013|
Also Führer, of course. But that's an entirely different matter.
|by Anonymous||reply 2||10/17/2013|
Drive heavily? So she wants them to walk everywhere?
|by Anonymous||reply 3||10/17/2013|
Drunk girls are just as stupid as guys. They don't get a pass for that.
|by Anonymous||reply 4||10/17/2013|
How does one drive heavily?
|by Anonymous||reply 5||10/17/2013|
Some people like to deal in absolutes instead of common sense. Of course anyone should be able to do whatever they want and be safe. The in the real world getting sloshed makes you vulnerable to all sorts of things.
|by Anonymous||reply 7||10/17/2013|
So that's a typo and she's advocating young women not drink heavily? That seems smart.
|by Anonymous||reply 8||10/17/2013|
If I advise grown men to avoid walking alone at night through the worst part of town, is that "blaming the victim"?
|by Anonymous||reply 9||10/17/2013|
Women can be raped even when they aren't drinking. You morons know that...right?
R9, victim blamers only tell women not to drink. They don't tell men not to drink.
|by Anonymous||reply 10||10/17/2013|
You see if you drink and drive, the law says because you knew getting drunk was bad YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE.
But the fraus of the USA passed laws that say if you drink and have sex, YOU'RE NOT RESPONSIBLE for anything.
Why the conflict? Because Americans are stupid.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||10/17/2013|
"You see if you drink and drive, the law says because you knew getting drunk was bad YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE."
That's because you can kill or hurt someone by driving drunk. Duh. How does that compare to young women drinking and not hurting anyone?
"But the fraus of the USA passed laws that say if you drink and have sex, YOU'RE NOT RESPONSIBLE for anything."
We're talking about rape, not "sex" - whining about fraus just proves what a dumb misogynist you are.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||10/17/2013|
R10, women are far more likely to be raped if drunk. They are also far more likely to make poor choices that will contribute to being raped.
Men are far less likely to be raped (or even assaulted) period. While, a man would be far more likely to be raped if drunk, the chances of it happening are so slim that to compare the two situations is dishonest.
Women are not interchangeable with men.
|by Anonymous||reply 13||10/17/2013|
If you care so much, why don't you go over to Slate and make the 10,438th comment on the article?
|by Anonymous||reply 14||10/17/2013|
The anger is because it suggests that men are not responsible for their behavior at all. That if they see a drunk girl, she's fair game for rape, which is to be expected. Guys will be guys, so of course they will try to have sex with a living corpse. It puts all the responsibility on the girls to keep from getting assaulted while passed out.
What's next? Suggesting young women wear burkas so men won't be "tempted" to rape them.
Reminds me of that movie "Sixteen Candles" when the hunk offers up his girl friend to the nerd to date rape her while she's passed out because "she won't know the difference." No one ever questioned that scene at the time ('80's) and the hunk was depicted as a hero in the movie, not some creep. You'd never see a scene like that now.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||10/17/2013|
r13, people of both genders can be victims of crimes (not just rape) when they are drunk. If you get drunk at a club and leave your wallet or purse unattended and someone steals it, we don't attack the theft victim for being drunk, we attack the person who stole. Women shouldn't be blamed for being raped whether they were drunk or not - we should blame the perp.
And it's far from inevitable that a woman will be raped if she gets drunk so I think you are the one being dishonest.
|by Anonymous||reply 16||10/17/2013|
I just don't get the anger at the article by women. As a woman who used to drink a lot, I am stunned that I didn't end up raped or worse, dead, in my drunken days.
I don't consider the advice of controlled drinking in a social situation to be blaming the victim at all. Look, we can only control our own behavior, not that of others. In a perfect world, men wouldn't prey upon women who were inebriated or buzzed. But some men do. And since it's not a perfect world and we can't control others' behavior, the only behavior we can control is our own, so just moderate your drinking when out socially. I'm not saying don't drink at all, just watch yourself when out at a bar or a party.
And if you really need to be totally inebriated whenever you are drinking, then, well, you have a problem and probably need to get help for it.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||10/17/2013|
R16, actually you are wrong, but thank you for the analogy. Yes, if someone is drunk and someone steals his or her wallet, I do blame the person for being drunk.
According to most of the logic here, if I leave my store wide open all night long and someone robs me, I should not be blamed for leaving my store unlocked and unattended. Sorry, that is not the real world.
Also, there is a lot of poor reasoning. The notion that women are responsible for their choices, does not automatically mean that men are not responsible for their choices. To state that one is inherent in the other is false.
|by Anonymous||reply 18||10/17/2013|
I only know how to drive heavily.
|by Anonymous||reply 19||10/17/2013|
Most women nowadays expect that they should be free from any and all responsibility for ANYTHING. And if one does something dumb, they will always find a way to blame a man (or "the patriarchy"). It's so convenient for them, this circular logic in which they live.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||10/17/2013|
I'm not making up my mind on this question until I hear what Olivia Benson says.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||10/17/2013|
I can see why it's rubs women the wrong way. I work in the A&E of a city hospital. Every Saturday night we have approx 150 drunk 'patients'. Half are dropped off by the cops because they are so wasted they can't remember their name or address and the rest have been assaulted. 90% are young males. I am still waiting for the flood of articles telling young males to drink responsibly. And I'll stay waiting because young men are never called out on anything.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||10/17/2013|
"As a woman who used to drink a lot, I am stunned that I didn't end up raped or worse, dead, in my drunken days."
I love how people think it's INEVITABLE that a woman will get raped "or worse" if she drinks. It's not.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||10/17/2013|
"Most women nowadays expect that they should be free from any and all responsibility for ANYTHING. And if one does something dumb, they will always find a way to blame a man (or "the patriarchy"). It's so convenient for them, this circular logic in which they live."
It's the opposite, actually. Uneducated Republican rednecks blame women for the bad things that men do. It's men who play the blame game and blame others for their problems.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||10/17/2013|
"Yes, if someone is drunk and someone steals his or her wallet, I do blame the person for being drunk."
You sound like a sociopath.
|by Anonymous||reply 25||10/17/2013|
R22, you aren't paying attention. The aricles are out there. Most universities also have have alcohol education. The problem is that alcohol as male bonding is so ingrained into our culture that all the articles and eduction in the world is not going to counteract the Hangover franchise.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||10/17/2013|
Good girls don't drink, swear, or get themselves "in trouble".
|by Anonymous||reply 27||10/17/2013|
R26 - well that's the point. I don't see the media giving airtime to the idea that men should be responsible drinkers a d that's guys who are sitting in surgery on Sunday morning getting their heads stitched back together only have themselves to blame. As a male it offends me that so little is expected of us. If a straight guy sees a drunk girl he'll rape her and her fault for being smashed. He was just being a guy. So offensive. I have four nephews but I would never want them to get that message. I just find it strange that some of you don't see the free pass guys get. Women get blamed for everything from the ecomkny to their own rape to hurricanes and us gays aren't too far behind so you'd think we'd be able to smell the bullshit!
|by Anonymous||reply 28||10/17/2013|
R11 is jealous of straight women because they get all the attention he craves. And by the way, dumbass, the frauen are not concerned about sexual violence against college women unless it involves "stranger danger". Like you, the frauen believe that college women who got drunk and assaulted were "asking for it".
I think it's funny that you are so indignant and righteous in your post JUST LIKE the frauen. As far as I'm concerned, you are none too bright and were easily brainwashed to embrace the norms of patriarchy...JUST LIKE the fraus.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||10/17/2013|
r28 Again you seem to be locked in a black/white mindset.
[quote]If a straight guy sees a drunk girl he'll rape her and her fault for being smashed. He was just being a guy.
That is not true. The majority of straight guys would not take advantage of the situation. Second, if he was to rape her, it would not, as a rule, be dismissed as a guy being a guy. The fact is that society can see the rapist as a criminal and see the woman has having made bad choices which contributed to the situation. It is not black and white.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||10/17/2013|
The wig troll is here. He must have lost his hair at a very early age to be so obsessed with other men's follicles.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||10/17/2013|
[quote]The anger is because it suggests that men are not responsible for their behavior at all.
I think decades and decades of anti-rape teaching to young men hasn't done any good because of biological hardwiring. So, the sensible thing is to acknowledge that there will always be rape and make suggestions to women on how to avoid it. The idea that we'll eradicate rape through educating males is patently absurd, a PC feminist fantasy.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||10/17/2013|
The article is not saying that it is the girl's fault for being drunk nor does it say that the guy is blameless.
What she is clearly saying over and over is that the female needs to protect herself because so many guys are pigs. If you are raped, it doesn't help very much that you can blame the guy. You have still been raped and you will still live with that for the rest of your life. Blaming someone else will not take that pain away.
If you are scammed by some fool who sent you an email, the scammer is the guilty party. Unfortunately, knowing that doesn't get you your money back nor does it restore your peace of mind. You did something foolish and you paid the price. You trusted the wrong person and they took advantage of you
So many people wander haplessly through life wondering why bad things always happen to them. Take responsibility for your actions and don't let others use you for their own amusement.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||10/17/2013|
[quote]The idea that we'll eradicate rape through educating males is patently absurd, a PC feminist fantasy.
Patently wrong, R32. There are unenlightened, third world cultures where rape is FAR more accepted, even expected "normal" male behavior with no consequences to the males, but devastating effects on females. I was listening to an NPR program recently about how gang rape is a rite of passage in Cambodia where most young men participate in several gang rapes per month as a male-bonding ritual. They are pressured to do it to prove their manhood even if they don't want to. They are savages, plain and simple. This type of thing doesn't occur in civilized cultures--because of we are enlightened ie. EDUCATED to how harmful it is.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||10/17/2013|
[quote] They are savages, plain and simple.
And you, my friend, are a simpleton.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||10/17/2013|
"I think decades and decades of anti-rape teaching to young men hasn't done any good because of biological hardwiring. So, the sensible thing is to acknowledge that there will always be rape and make suggestions to women on how to avoid it. The idea that we'll eradicate rape through educating males is patently absurd, a PC feminist fantasy."
You sound like a dumb Republican. Rape rates have been going down for years...thanks to education.
"Take responsibility for your actions and don't let others use you for their own amusement."
How about telling criminals to take responsibilty for their own actions?
|by Anonymous||reply 37||10/17/2013|
I wonder if Americans getting fatter and uglier has helped decrease the number of rapes in general.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||10/17/2013|
Actually, most rapists are under the influence of alcohol when they commit their crimes, not the other way around.
Rape has gone down in recent years because there is less of a drunken bar culture.
And a very drunk woman is not sexually alluring to a sober, non-sociopathic male.
Again, this is blaming the victims.
Why not just tell women to never travel--foreign countries have the highest rates of rape.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||10/17/2013|
"I wonder if Americans getting fatter and uglier has helped decrease the number of rapes in general."
Rape is going down in lots of places, not just America.
|by Anonymous||reply 40||10/17/2013|
It's Americans' Calvinist-Puritan heritage that causes the hysteria about this topic.
In both Kika and Matador, Almodovar had hilarious sequences involving rape or attempted rape.
|by Anonymous||reply 41||10/17/2013|
WTF is the big deal? Guess what? I grew up in a sketchy part of town, and my mother and grandmother always told me: "Don't walk around at night. Always stay on well-lit streets away from alleys and dark corners. Otherwise you might get assaulted or robbed." I guess mom and grandma were "victim-blaming" me, but I sure am glad that I took their cautionary advice.
There will always be criminals and freaks and weirdos out there. They are NOT going to change or go away. Only YOU can watch out for yourself and modify your behavior in such a way that minimizes risk and violence.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||10/17/2013|
It's not blaming the victim it is good advice to avoid being VICTIMIZED. Women should understand they are vulnerable and protect themselves.
|by Anonymous||reply 43||10/17/2013|
"They are NOT going to change or go away."
Actually, people can change, which is why rape has continued to go down year after year.
"Always stay on well-lit streets away from alleys and dark corners"
I guess some people haven't gotten the memo that most rapes don't happen in dark alleys. Most women are raped by men they know, not by random psychos.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||10/17/2013|
R44, ALL violence has gone down, period. Across the board --- murder, theft, gang-violence, carjacking, serial killing, etc. Not just rape. And this isn't "people changing." Today's young people are simply not as violent as the young people of the late '70s, '80s, '90s. (Contrary to what the sensationalizing media would have you believe). If you don't believe me, check the FBI crime statistics.
And nice way to spin the comment about dark alleys. That wasn't about rape. That was about a mother cautioning against assault and robbery. Dark, unlit streets are where most muggings and stick-ups happen. There's nothing wrong with heeding common sense advice.
And yes, young women are much more prone to getting raped than men. But guess what? Most young men are more at risk for murder, assault and gay hate crimes than women.
The silver lining in all of this is that crime is going DOWN. Why do Americans need to froth at the mouth and act as if though crime is "out of control in this day and age" when the opposite is proven true?
|by Anonymous||reply 45||10/17/2013|
"ALL violence has gone down, period. Across the board --- murder, theft, gang-violence, carjacking, serial killing, etc. Not just rape. And this isn't "people changing." Today's young people are simply not as violent as the young people of the late '70s, '80s, '90s. (Contrary to what the sensationalizing media would have you believe). If you don't believe me, check the FBI crime statistics."
You say people aren't changing but then you contadict yourself by saying people are becoming less violent. I know damn well that violence is down, I was the first person on this thread to point out that rape is declining. People hear news stories about rapes like the Steubenville case and think that rape is on the rise or that there is some huge epidemic of girls getting raped while drunk. There isn't, you are just hearing about it more on the news. Same thing happened with the Jerry Sandusky case - there was all this hysteria about how to protect kids from abuse even though abuse has been declining for decades (like rape).
|by Anonymous||reply 46||10/17/2013|
 Why then do we continue to build prisons and fill them at an unprecedented rate? One out of 3 black men go to prison in their lifetime.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||10/17/2013|
"Why then do we continue to build prisons and fill them at an unprecedented rate?"
Because we send people to prison for things they never would have been imprisoned for years ago. And we put people on the sex offender registry for things like prostitution and having consensual sex with someone 3 years younger but that's a separate issue....
|by Anonymous||reply 48||10/17/2013|
I don't get the criticism of the article. It seems to advocate common sense.
The argument against it is that women should be able to feel free to get completely wasted without having to worry about anything bad happening? Seems very paternalistic and disempowering to raise the 'blame the victim' meme.
|by Anonymous||reply 49||10/17/2013|
[quote] Why then do we continue to build prisons and fill them at an unprecedented rate? One out of 3 black men go to prison in their lifetime.
Because many prisons are now privatized and they need prisoners in order to keep the money coming in.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||10/17/2013|
"It seems to advocate common sense."
Lots of women get drunk and the vast majority of them never get raped. Your logic seems to be that any women who gets drunk will be raped which actually goes against common sense.
"The argument against it is that women should be able to feel free to get completely wasted without having to worry about anything bad happening? Seems very paternalistic and disempowering to raise the 'blame the victim' meme."
People like you who lecture women on how to behave are the paternalistic ones. Funny when right-wingers accuse others of doing the things they are guilty of...
|by Anonymous||reply 51||10/17/2013|
Of course criminals should take responsibility for their actions, R37. But R33 is advocating good sense and self-protection, that is all.
When I was at university and active in the feminist community on campus, we used to organize self-defence classes for women and men. Well, one good method of self-defence is to stay sober in settings where predatory males are present. This does not mean that sexual assaults will not still occur, nor does it mean that assailants should not be held responsible for their actions. It simply means that one is realistic about patriarchal culture and the abuses of power that occur within it.
|by Anonymous||reply 52||10/17/2013|
There is lots of peculation as to why crime rates have decreased. Especially in light of recent economic turmoil - conventional wisdom predicts increases in criminal activity as the economy worsens.
It's hard to argue it is the US's high incarceration rates causing the decrease. Canada has seen a similar decline in crime rates while incarceration rates remained the same.
Germane to this discussion is the theory that one major factor contributing to the drop in crime has been victim preparedness. People change their behavior to reduce their risks for becoming a victim.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||10/17/2013|
"Well, one good method of self-defence is to stay sober in settings where predatory males are present"
It's not like guys announce that they are predators. Sometimes it's hard to distinguish the nice guys from the not-so-nice ones.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||10/17/2013|
True, R54. I would assume there are at least a couple predatory males in most settings. Hence my advice about staying sober.
|by Anonymous||reply 55||10/17/2013|
R51, et al illustrate the problem, it is a bunch of feminists putting their hands on their hips and whining, "You can't tell us what to do."
|by Anonymous||reply 56||10/17/2013|
No one needs to binge drink. Binge drinking is not healthy for anyone.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||10/17/2013|
[quote]Your logic seems to be that any women who gets drunk will be raped which actually goes against common sense...People like you who lecture women
Where? Nowhere did I lecture women, nor suggest that being drunk means you get raped. I'm saying the idea of taking responsibility for yourself is empowering. For males and females.
Advising all people to drink responsibly is not 'lecturing women'.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||10/17/2013|
No surprises here...a lot of Leftists are VERY uncomfortable with the idea of personal responsibility.
|by Anonymous||reply 59||10/17/2013|
"it is a bunch of feminists putting their hands on their hips and whining"
You're probably Rush Limbaugh or some stupid fat redneck whining about "feminazis"
|by Anonymous||reply 60||10/17/2013|
Actually, R59, it's the fundie who blames everyone else for his problems.
Don't get it twisted.
|by Anonymous||reply 61||10/17/2013|
[quote]No one needs to binge drink. Binge drinking is not healthy for anyone.
Listen to that. Half a cider and she thinks she needs a liver transplant.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||10/17/2013|
Slightly off topic but there was a great quote from a woman about the entitlement of modern women. Anyone know which one I am talking about?
|by Anonymous||reply 63||10/17/2013|
"Slightly off topic but there was a great quote from a woman about the entitlement of modern women"
Dataloungers like to throw the word "entitlement" around even when it doesn't apply. It's a catch-all term around here (like "sociopath" which is basically just used as a catch-all term for anyone who does anything bad).
|by Anonymous||reply 64||10/17/2013|
"No surprises here...a lot of Leftists are VERY uncomfortable with the idea of personal responsibility."
It's generally right-wingers who are uncomfortable with taking responsibility for their own actions, so they blame feminists, gays, or minorities for anything bad that happens. Remember when Jerry Falwell blamed gays and feminists for 9/11?
|by Anonymous||reply 65||10/17/2013|
Interestingly, the Taliban tell women the same thing.
|by Anonymous||reply 66||10/17/2013|
R64, sorry, it is OT in regards to the topic at hand but the quote I have in mind did mention it. This thread just made me vaguely remember that quote... I wish I could find it!
It was by a woman too. Anyone have any idea what I'm talking about? I am running Google searches as we speak to no avail.
It's an obscure quote but the author of the quote is famous.
|by Anonymous||reply 68||10/17/2013|
OP / r32
Fuck off!!! There's too much evolution to make it worthwhile trying to educate men that rape is WRONG???? The onus should be on women???
Again, FUCK OFF!!!!
Should gay men be ' educated' in the ways of homophobes and have the onus put on them for the fuckwittery of others? WHY?
Bottom line: Men need to shame men over their behaviour. Why should they choose to blame the victims and try to draw distinctions between the 'contributory behaviour' of female victims instead of addressing the entitled behaviour of the perpetrators.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||10/17/2013|
It isn't placing blame to say that not getting trashed with guys goes a long way to you not getting raped. Rape is still caused by rapists. Drunk girls are just one of the biggest targets.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||10/17/2013|
How many of these "drunk" girls were given a roofie?
|by Anonymous||reply 71||10/17/2013|
If I advise that you lock your car doors so that your car isn't stolen, am I excusing the thieves?
|by Anonymous||reply 72||10/17/2013|
If you've ever lived in the UK as I have, you'll have noticed how many young girls go staggering around dead drunk - or paralytic as they say. And not just the chav class either. My partner and I were once on the (incredibly steep) escalator going into Waterloo Station, 7 o'clock in the evening. A couple of steps ahead of us was a beautiful young woman, dressed in designer duds and stilettos. She was weaving back and forth on the escalator and I thought was going to fall backwards and impale us with those pricey shoes. When she arrived on the platform, she was staggering around and I was going to help her, thought she must be ill, but my partner said "she's pissed out of her head, leave her alone".
Regularly on TV in the UK, there'll be a new item about some young woman who was found murdered, last seen "leaving the pub"...
|by Anonymous||reply 73||10/17/2013|
"If I advise that you lock your car doors so that your car isn't stolen, am I excusing the thieves?"
If someone stole your car, people wouldn't be lecturing you or acting like you were the one who did something wrong. Too bad that doesn't happen with rape victims.
"Regularly on TV in the UK, there'll be a new item about some young woman who was found murdered"
I bet there are even more stories about young men being murdered, but of course you don't mention that....
|by Anonymous||reply 74||10/17/2013|
"If you've ever lived in the UK as I have, you'll have noticed how many young girls go staggering around dead drunk - or paralytic as they say"
But all the men are stone cold sober, of course!
|by Anonymous||reply 75||10/17/2013|
This is a complicated topic.
For one binge drinking is a willful intentional act - where the participant knows the outcome. They are doing it to get drunk.
Plus the stats on sexual assault and college aged women are very unreliable. They often aren't collected from police records - but surveys. Often the bias of those taking the survey shows.
When you are sober the next day - well who wants to take full responsibility for all their actions the night before?
So actually yeah, I'm OK with warning women that binge drinking makes them complicit in their own assault. Just like if they decided to drive drunk and hit a tree.
|by Anonymous||reply 76||10/17/2013|
"So actually yeah, I'm OK with warning women that binge drinking makes them complicit in their own assault"
No, it doesn't, except in the minds of victim-blaming psychos. Any sane person would say that no one deserves to be raped, regardless of whether they are drunk.
I doubt you guys would be blaming the victim if some frat boy got drunk and then his frat buddies decided to anally rape him with a paddle or something. Misogynists are just looking for an excuse to blame women.
|by Anonymous||reply 77||10/17/2013|
so, even if I drink nothing but non-alcoholic drinks and someone puts roofies in it, I am at fault. I mean, that could never happen right???
|by Anonymous||reply 78||10/17/2013|
I agree with R70.
I view the whole 'not getting trashed' suggestion as a form of self-protection. It doesn't mean sexual assaults won't still occur, nor does it mean that women who are assaulted while drunk are responsible for the criminal behaviour of their assailants. It is simply common sense advice.
|by Anonymous||reply 80||10/17/2013|
Defensive Tu Quoque arguments like yours can be taken as a sign of running from the truth.
And despite your generalization...you're not wrong about conservatives.
|by Anonymous||reply 81||10/17/2013|
[quote]How many of these "drunk" girls were given a roofie?
Not many. It's very difficult to obtain Rohypnol, it's not sold in the US, and manufacturing changes make it harder to administer undetected.
And, as anyone who's ever chewed a Xanax will tell you, more commonly available benzodiazepines are viciously bitter. They would render any drink nauseating.
|by Anonymous||reply 82||10/17/2013|
Some years ago a co-ed at Cleveland State University in Ohio got drunk and decided to take on the school's entire baseball team. The next day, sobered up, she screamed rape. Fortunately one of the guys has a cassette tape recorder in the room documenting the woman's eager participation, urging guys on to fuck her, calling for "next!" She's lucky that this was in the days before everyone was carrying a video camera in their pocket. This would have gone viral in minutes.
|by Anonymous||reply 84||10/17/2013|
R77 - where did I say anyone deserves to be raped?
Tell me how someone who intentionally gets drunk to the point where they can't change their mind get up, put on their panties and leave isn't complicit in what happens?
R78 - do you know what binge drinking is? The drink has to be alcohol. On what world is someone drugging you without your consent the same as you drugging yourself?
|by Anonymous||reply 85||10/17/2013|
"Tell me how someone who intentionally gets drunk to the point where they can't change their mind get up, put on their panties and leave isn't complicit in what happens?"
Getting drunk isn't an invitation to rape, except in the minds of psychos. If someone leaves their door unlocked and then gets murdered in their home no one would say they are complicit in their murder. The only person to blame is the perpetrator.
I guess those boys Michael Jackson molested are complicit in their molestation, since they voluntarily drank the "Jesus juice" Michael gave them! Oh, wait, they are male so they won't get blamed for anything.
|by Anonymous||reply 86||10/17/2013|
As a woman who has been that drunk, sloppy, nearly passed out girl a few times I agree with the point of view that women need to be responsible for themselves. When you drink so much you are completely blitzed you have to realize that you WILL be at the mercy of whoever it is that comes across you. In the end, you need to be aware that there are people out there that will take advantage of you and you need to conduct yourself accordingly.
|by Anonymous||reply 87||10/17/2013|
Woman here. I had no beef whatsoever with what she wrote. She was not blaming victims of rape. She was merely advocating being smart especially in a milieu where anything goes.
I tell my younger sister not to go out too late, not to drink, not to accept a lift from someone she doesn't know, always to watch what she's drinking and a ton of other things. Is that blaming her? Or is it trying to teach her to be smart because we don't live in a perfect world? I think the latter.
Some of the comments by women are mind-boggingly illogical and dumb. One woman wrote that drinking didn't bring about more rape. Well, the biggest date rape drug is alcohol. That is a fact. When you're drunk, you lose the ability to think and react properly, you become very vulnerable if you happen to be around someone with bad intentions. Lots of guys love being around drunk girls. No shit! They think they're going to get lucky.
Getting drunk, being passed out, being unable to walk properly, being unable to say no because the alcohol has rendered you incapable does not excuse rape nor does it justify rape. Rapists use every trick in the book to place blame anywhere but on them. Any man who sees a woman/girl or man/boy who's clearly drunk and has sex with them is disgusting at best and at worst a rapist. That's the problem with alcohol, it changes you. You can become provocative, the opposite of what you usually are. This is used as an invitation by rapists.
I learnt these lessons before I ever had a drink. I don't actually drink because I don't enjoy it but before I could decide if I liked it, I realized how dangerous it could be. I knew to be proactive.
Honestly, some women are acting like advising women not to binge drink (you don't need to binge drink to be drunk, for some people, a drink is all it takes) is like saying don't wear a skanky dress in order not to get raped. There's no equivalence there. The former is good advice; the latter is most definitely victim-blaming.
Some rapists have said:
She's too nice. She smiled at me. She told me without telling me that she wanted it. No really meant yes. She was playing hard to get. She asked for it. It was a performance when she said no. It was her fantasy. She didn't say no (while passed out). She said she would have sex with me. She can't just change her mind like that.
^ That's victim blaming
|by Anonymous||reply 88||10/17/2013|
Ummm R86, those boys Michael Jackson molested were 13 y/o or younger. Are you seriously now comparing the intellectual capacity/naivete of adult, drinking-aged women to prepubescent boys? But I guess the fact that they were little boys wouldn't matter to you since they are "just male."
|by Anonymous||reply 89||10/17/2013|
[quote]If someone leaves their door unlocked and then gets murdered in their home no one would say they are complicit in their murder.
Actually, yes, most people would on some level. Unfortunately, getting blind drunk isn't the same a leaving the door unlocked, which could be an accident. It would be more like leaving the door wide open knowing that there is a murderer in your neighborhood, preying on your specific type.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||10/18/2013|
People can interpret this in several ways, bottom line; Don't be a rapist.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||10/18/2013|
I got sloshed when I was 22 and ended up fighting off a coworker in an underground parking lot. It scared the hell out of me, and I vowed not to drink socially. And I didn't except for the occasional beer or wine at home. I didn't miss it and had only one more acquaintance rape close call in 40 years. It involved a drunken boss on a business trip and because I was completely lucid, I talked my way out of it, pointing out how shitty he'd feel the next day and was able to peel him off of me. I realize that's not where young women are coming from and there's an expectation that you should be able to dress like a stripper and get tanked without consequences. My feeling is good luck with that.
|by Anonymous||reply 92||10/18/2013|
As a mom, I advise my college age daughters to not drink irresponsibly...that does not promote "blaming the victim" mentality.
I like to live in the real world.
|by Anonymous||reply 93||10/18/2013|
Someone wrote that the vast majority of women don't get raped. When I was in college it was 1 in 4 women will be assaulted now it's 1 in 5. the majority don't report assaults though. That's not a vast majority. I'd say it's scary bad odds for women. Those odds go up if you like to drink and go to bars and parties. Not even getting smashed.
Most of my close girlfriends have been raped or attempted rape victims but got away. none of them reported it. Yes, most were drinking but not totally wasted at all. 3 were roofied.
Most of them vaguely knew their attacker except one who was walking home alone late at night.
These were smart women who just didn't want to go to the police because they were embarrassed or there was no evidence or were just young and scared. At the time most people spread the word through school to stay away from certain guys or frats that were known to use roofies or date rape.
I would definitely tell any young woman to stay away from drunk guys in groups, watch out for each other and get you friends home if they are too drunk.plus a bunch of other advice.
I still remember one friend who was attacked in her home and pretended to be into it because she was being smothered and couldn't breath and was pinned down. He let up and she bolted out of the house, he chased and she ran back inside and locked the door as he screamed at her for ten minutes. She said she never realized what it meant to be the weaker sex. He was plain old stronger and as hard as she fought she couldn't budge him. she said she knew she was going to be raped or smothered and got very calm and though up the ruse. she called me to come over . Sometimes we would see the guy at a bar and he wouldn't stop leering at her and he was old ugly and creepy. Thank god she got away.
|by Anonymous||reply 94||10/18/2013|
[quote]victim blamers only tell women not to drink. They don't tell men not to drink.
For fuck's sake, the message is not a nod and a wink for men to rape, nor that women in any way deserve rape. It's spoken to women as individuals to give some small care to their own health and their own interests. There are dangers enough in life for the conscious, but being passed out drunk in public certainly makes one (of any sex) unduly vulnerable to a host of dangers, rape among them.
Rapists should be thrown in a literal wood chipper as far as I'm concerned, but there's a reason to look both ways before setting out to cross a street -- even a one-way street.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||10/18/2013|
I don't know what R86 et al's damage is, though I have heard the same argument before from a former co-worker who, I guess, must have been a militant feminist. Mind you, she wasn't a big drinker and had the same boyfriend (now husband) who she'd been with since she was like 17 years old. A lot of the rapes and murders happen to single women who are either drinking alone or who separate from the safety of their group. That girl in NYC who was killed a few years ago was drinking with friends all night then left alone.
She ended up murdered.
Classes teaching males to respect females would probably not have stopped this from happening, since bad people don't take these classes nor do they learn from them. No RAD (Rape Aggessive Defense) class would have helped her either, since she was inebriated.
The only thing that could have kept this girl alive was to not drink so much and to stay with her group of friends.
|by Anonymous||reply 96||10/18/2013|
The only answer to this is a police state, since men/boys cannot control their violent impulses.
We need cameras on every corner, and RFID tags to track all moves.
Human males are the most primitive acting creatures on the planet.
|by Anonymous||reply 97||10/18/2013|
R97, most of the world's finest creations in medicine, technology and the arts have been created by men. If you don't like men then maybe you should stick to L Chat, stop posting here, and beyond that live on some fantasy womyn-only separatist land where I'm sure your world will be filled with only harmony. I'm sure lots of young women will sign up to be a part of that land.
|by Anonymous||reply 98||10/18/2013|
It's doubtful that there's some sudden epidemic of rape caused by disgusting shameless drunken twerking hussies. I think the difference is that young Americans in general are less uptight about sex and more willing to openly discuss it when somebody does something shitty to them.
|by Anonymous||reply 99||10/18/2013|
It's sound advice.
Since some women are so damn stupid/naive, they actually need to be told this.
|by Anonymous||reply 100||10/18/2013|
The guys these "victims" have sex with are often drunk themselves.
It's time men started having the courage to report rape by women. It's time for some true equality.
|by Anonymous||reply 101||10/18/2013|
R100, it is not that they are stupid or naive, it is that they have been lied to. They have been told that they can do anything that a man can do, and they have been told that being a feminist means that they need to do whatever a man does, even if it is anti-social or just plain stupid. Can you imagine the response if a young woman said that she was not going to binge drink because it was not lady-like?
|by Anonymous||reply 102||10/18/2013|
There is nothing wrong with teaching young women that by binge drinking, their chances of being taken advantage of are far greater. Especially at a party with men. And yes, more concentration needs to be put on making men stop raping women. That is without a doubt.
But we're not at the point of the extinction of rape. It will continue to happen, and there is nothing wrong with taking precautions.
When you are a 21 year old girl and you get blind ass drunk in a college town full of horny college boys, there is no negotiating your way out of it.
I am not personally blaming the victim. I am encouraging people to not become victims. And I believe rapists should have their dicks cut off and fed to pigs.
Discussions like this are important, and perhaps they will save lives.
Binge drinking is a stupid idea for both sexes. But let's call a fact a fact, it's not stopping any time soon. Sometimes you can only take care of yourself.
|by Anonymous||reply 103||10/18/2013|
I think a lot of people are not making a distinction between a woman being taking advantage of while drunk and a woman being raped (and possibly murdered)by a total stranger who a sociopath. I really think this is one of the problems with the university attitude. Everyone is so wound up about "date rape", that the end up trivializing or downplaying the very real possibility of a "good old-fashioned" rapist.
|by Anonymous||reply 104||10/18/2013|
So it's okay to fuck anybody you want so long as they're drunk enough not to be able to fight you off.
Good. Glad we got that cleared up.
|by Anonymous||reply 105||10/18/2013|
R105, no. But there seem to be a lot of people who seem to feel that the answer is to just "educate" the men. There are a lot of dangerous men who can not/ will not be educated.
|by Anonymous||reply 106||10/18/2013|
A lot of women with Asperger's unfortunately are sexually assaulted/raped because they don't know how to read clues and act deftly with strangers. Also, many don't gauge what a dangerous situation may be.
Question: is it their fault as well?
|by Anonymous||reply 107||10/18/2013|
Problem solved: all drunk women should carry loaded guns.
|by Anonymous||reply 108||10/18/2013|
That's a good idea, R108, because every time something bad happens I hear all these people on the TV saying it wouldn't have happened if they'd just had a gun. So there must be something to it.
|by Anonymous||reply 109||10/18/2013|
r104, if you really believe that, take a look at the thread about Madonna being raped at knifepoint. Hilarity and scorn unbounded!
When women were considered the property of their husbands or other male relatives, rape was a pretty clear-cut crime. But since women became full emancipated citizens we really haven't come up with an agreed-on cultural definition of rape. It's almost impossible to prosecute, which is why cops are so resistant to processing rape claims. Recently somebody discovered a cache of used rape kits in the Detroit police department that nobody had bothered to send on to the lab for processing. Well, that's Detroit but meanwhile there are serial rapists doing pretty much whatever they want with no fear of being stopped.
If you extend the logic of 'just don't drink," you get the burqa, because the only practical way for a woman to never be raped is to completely make herself physically inaccessible to men at all times. It's just not a realistic option for an American woman. They have as much right to go out and get a buzz on without being jumped as any man.
|by Anonymous||reply 110||10/19/2013|