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Is it the beginning of the end for Europe?

The European economy is suffering. And it doesn't seem to be improving. With the exception of Germany, I think it's the beginning of the end for Europe.

by Anonymousreply 7907/31/2013

[quote]I think it's the beginning of the end for Europe

The end of what?

by Anonymousreply 107/30/2013

Uh, no. Just growing pains and slow reemergence from global recession. Our "austerity" plan, foisted upon us by the Germans, does not support economic growth.

You know we change Presidents every 6 months, don't you?

by Anonymousreply 207/30/2013

Europe died when the first World War broke out. Then it went through the depression, and then WWII further cimented its downfall and ushered in the new world leaders: the US. Except now the US is flailing, and sadly China and other BRIICS are taking over, which isn't too good for our rights, our safety, our working conditions, the widening gap between rich and poor, etc, etc,

Europe is a museum.

by Anonymousreply 307/30/2013

Lithuania is so homophobic by the way... How do you live with it?

by Anonymousreply 407/30/2013

There are signs of recovery in some of the larger states. Southern Europe remains fucked.

by Anonymousreply 507/30/2013

I think what has messed up Europe was that silly EU idea they had in the mid-2000s. The goal was to create an economic superpower that could overtake the US. In reality, the union has done more harm to the European economy, as the poor and indebted states are draining the richer countries, which has led to tensions. Many in the UK and Germany want out.

by Anonymousreply 607/30/2013

R6 the EU was created long before md-2000s. It started in the 50s with the Treaty of Rome, continued under various names and eventually became the EU in 1993. It wasn't EVER about the US, how fucking egotistical to imagine that a whole continent would form a common trading area, area of passport free travel, common laws, common currency just to "create an economic superpower that could overtake the US".

The goal was to feed millions of people after a war that devastated A WHOLE CONTINENT. It was called the common agricultural policy, that's how it started. Fuck all to do with the US.

It's true that Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain are a drain on the rest of the EU, and the larger economic areas are beginning to want out, particularly Germany and the UK. It's not so bad for the UK in one way as they are not part of the Eurozone, thankfully decided against that phenomenal mistake, but they are still paying to bail out the poorer countries. Ireland's banks were bailed out by the UK taxpayers by about £10 billion.

by Anonymousreply 707/30/2013

By bailed out, R7 means the Irish are having to pay back every penny with a very high rate of interest, so the guarantor nations make a tidy profit in the end. Nobody gets a free handout - it is not about debt forgiveness.

by Anonymousreply 807/30/2013

Right on R8

And the premice for the EU started with coal and steel if i remember correctly.

by Anonymousreply 907/30/2013

At least Europe is still a cultural destination, which is more than can be said about the US. And the US are in decline too.

by Anonymousreply 1007/30/2013

We voted with our pocketbooks and decided we wanted cheaper products, produced with cheaper labor, lower-quality material, reduced cost in shipping, etc. And it's the life we're gonna get. Thank you India.

by Anonymousreply 1107/30/2013

R8 the payment was made to Ulster Bank, which despite it's name operates in the Republc of Ireland, not to the Irish government. The money went to shoring up the bank's bad debts and will not be paid back by the Irish taxpayers. If you have any further information on that, maybe some evidence of these very high interest rates, that would be just super.

If not, then you're talking out your arse.

R9 the founding of the EU is normally recognised as being the Treaty of Rome, not the ECSC.

by Anonymousreply 1207/30/2013

All I know is I'm in broke Spain, and was just in broke Greece, and befor broke Portugal and Italy, and the people are lovely, the food magnificent, the the cock is uncut and heaving everywhere. So take your artifically-created IMF bank crisis and shove it up your culo.

It's the beginning of the beginning, as long as they can pull an Argentina and tell the bankers to fuck off.

by Anonymousreply 1307/30/2013


by Anonymousreply 1407/30/2013

Europe isn't going anywhere. They've survived for thousands of years under the most deplorable conditions imaginable and a financial crisis isn't going to faze them one bit.

by Anonymousreply 1507/30/2013

What does "the end of Europe" even mean, OP?

I hate when people post things like this and refuse to be clear by what they mean.

by Anonymousreply 1607/30/2013

Doesn't Italy have a thriving industrial north, or is that over now?

by Anonymousreply 1707/30/2013

A big "Mary!" for r3.

Someone better tell the hundreds of millions of europeans enjoying some of the world's highest standards of living that their continent has been dead for nearly a century.

by Anonymousreply 1807/30/2013

[quote]WWII further cimented its downfall

[quote]And the premice for the EU

Oh, dears!

by Anonymousreply 1907/30/2013

Yes, OP, it's the end. They're all leaving for New York City.

by Anonymousreply 2007/30/2013

Europeans have been through so many hard times, they'll get through those as well. Most European countries have more stable governments and a more solid grounding in democracy than countries like the US or Australia. Education system is better, people are not as ignorant and easily fall for shady politicians (with some exceptions of course) like Americans.

by Anonymousreply 2107/30/2013

Continent on fire! Continent on fire!

by Anonymousreply 2207/30/2013

In the late middle-age half of Europe's population got wiped out by the bubonic plague and they bounced back from that too.

by Anonymousreply 2407/30/2013

I wonder how Europeans feel about no longer being the power center of the world as they once were. For nearly 550 years (1492-1945) the European powers colonized and controlled the globe. Now they are nothing more than a tourist trap with no real economic or military presence and have to scrape and bow to colonial upstarts like America and China.

I guess what comes around goes around considering all of the mass murdering, plundering and general destruction of entire civilizations have gone on under their imperialistic policies.

by Anonymousreply 2507/30/2013

R25 judging from the replies in this thread putting down non-Euros, it seems many Euros are both unhappy with and insecure about their status/place in the world.

by Anonymousreply 2607/30/2013

R25, probably relieved. Wouldn't you be?

Empire is for the 1%, and the 99% pays for it - the 1% win, whether it succeeds or fails.


by Anonymousreply 2707/30/2013

[quote]judging from the replies in this thread...

That's really funny!!!!

by Anonymousreply 2807/30/2013

I'm out.

by Anonymousreply 2907/30/2013

Hey, Europe, call me.

by Anonymousreply 3007/30/2013

Yes R13!!!!! Thank you for that. I have many friends in Portugal and apart from a few rich ones who keep preaching "austerity" and simultaneously post pictures of Saint-Tropez, Cap Ferrat... (not joking), all the others are collectively raising hell.

by Anonymousreply 3107/31/2013

Yes, OP, it's the end. They're all leaving for New York City.

If so, that's funny, because New Yorkers are moving here.

by Anonymousreply 3207/31/2013

Interesting R27 and thanks for posting. Indeed although Europe isn't a domineering power like it used to be, it does seem to offer a better standard of life for the middle class than countries like the US and let's not mention China.

And with nationalism gone, the 99% don't give a toss about the country's "rank" in the world, all they want is a decent life for themselves.

by Anonymousreply 3307/31/2013

How can New Yorkers move to Europe? Isn't hard to get work visas?

by Anonymousreply 3407/31/2013

If it is the end of Europe, then it is the end of civilization on this planet. Not something to root for.

by Anonymousreply 3507/31/2013

Europe will still exist: only its culture and people will disappear. Immigration from Africa is fast replacing the original inhabitants in countries like France or Belgium.

Some French cities have already 70% of their young population who are from north african or sub-saharian ethnicity.

Europe will be an extension of Africa by the end of the century. Sad in a way, but "c'est la vie"!

by Anonymousreply 3607/31/2013

Don't know about work visas, I know 4 ex-New Yorkers who have been living in Europe for several years.

by Anonymousreply 3707/31/2013

70%, aren't you exaggerating just a bit??

by Anonymousreply 3807/31/2013

There will always be Switzerland.

by Anonymousreply 3907/31/2013

Fascism is creeping up at an alarming rate in Europe. It's amazing that the US is progressing for the first time in ages, while the rest of the "enlightened" countries are headed backwards.

by Anonymousreply 4007/31/2013

heal your anger'll live longer

by Anonymousreply 4207/31/2013

[quote]In what way is the US progressing in comparison to Europe, [R40]? With its great laws whereby you can shoot black kids dead, stereotype them as a thug, and get away with murder?

Oh, brother.

by Anonymousreply 4307/31/2013

r41 = Marine le Pen

by Anonymousreply 4407/31/2013

"Facism On The Rise"

IN ATHENS, a popular far-right party condemns Jews as a source of the country’s misfortune and recycles the ancient lie depicting them as “Christ killers.” In Hungary, the prime minister fails to disassociate himself convincingly from an anti-Semitic and increasingly powerful fascist group. Scenes from Europe in the 1930s? No. Both examples, sadly, of European politics today.

The Greek organization is Golden Dawn, now the third most popular party in the birthplace of democracy. The Hungarian party is Jobbik, which is rising in influence. Nearly 70 years after the defeat of Hitler, Mussolini, and European fascism in the Second World War, hateful, right-wing ideology has returned in nearly every European country. While none of these parties is strong enough to win power, they are often violent and aggressive. And they are intolerant of immigrants, Jews, and other minority groups that don’t fit their twisted definition of what Greeks, Hungarians, and other Europeans should look like.

Golden Dawn has drawn worldwide attention for its crude bigotry, race-baiting, and use of the swastika and Nazi salute. Long an obscure cellar dweller in Greek politics, it has risen steadily in the polls as Greece’s economic crisis has worsened during the past three years. In the 2012 national elections, Golden Dawn surprised by winning 7 percent of the vote and 18 seats in the Greek Parliament. It is now at over over 11 percent in recent polls. Party legislators brawled with leftists in the Greek parliament last week. Earlier this month, another Golden Dawn leader tried to punch the mayor of Athens at a charity event and, in missing, hit a 12-year-old girl instead.

During the last few months, Golden Dawn has been particularly critical of the American Jewish Committee, in part for having invited Greek Prime Minister Andonis Samaras to speak at its Global Forum in Washington next month. Golden Dawn has castigated the AJC in outrageous, derogatory language and cartoons, describing Jews as “loan sharks and tyrants of the Greek people.” My friend David Harris, executive director of the AJC, describes the threat this way: “Golden Dawn does not even attempt to camouflage its ideology of hate” and “represents an insidious outlook that cannot be ignored today.”

Just as the Nazis and Mussolini preyed on people’s base, primal fears during the economic crises of the 1920s and ’30s, Golden Dawn targets poorer Greeks living in desperate times, with youth unemployment nearing 50 percent.

If not taking Hitler seriously soon enough was a great mistake of democratic leaders in the 1930s, how should Europe and the United States react today? Some find laughable a party that glorifies Nazis in the 21st century. But that is a naïve reaction given the anger, prejudice, and hatred that fuel many European fascist movements. It would be a serious mistake to assume they are all harmless far-right crackpots.

The battle to roll back Europe’s neo-fascists begins with Europeans themselves. Just last week, a Council of Europe official suggested Greece ban Golden Dawn from Greek political life. Europe’s most senior leaders, such as Germany’s Angela Merkel and France’s Francois Hollande, have a special responsibility to lead the charge. They can start by ostracizing Hungary’s mercurial prime minister, Viktor Orban, should he not condemn the Jobbik party in plain and unmistakable terms.

Americans, too, need to speak up. Our greatest achievement is construction of a society based on openness, diversity, tolerance, and freedom. In addition to guarding against our own far-right groups, we should continue to condemn fascist groups like Golden Dawn. We can also reaffirm our democratic links with the old continent. For all the talk about the pivot to Asia, Europe still ranks as our most important economic partner and most loyal ally in NATO. President Obama’s call for an ambitious new free trade and investment agreement with Europe can revitalize the trans-Atlantic alliance and strengthen European democracy in the process.

We share with Europe the deepest historical, social, and political connections, which go all the way back to the European discovery of America itself. We’re now called upon to defend them against a shameful ideology assaulting all that Europe has achieved since the close of World War II.

Nicholas Burns is a professor of the practice of diplomacy and international politics at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government. Follow him on Twitter @rnicholasburns.

by Anonymousreply 4507/31/2013

"Greek Politicians Shout 'Heil Hitler' In Parliament; Far-Right Golden Dawn MP Expelled (VIDEO)"

A Greek parliamentary session was the scene of a contentious debate between rival political parties on Friday, ending in the ejection of neo-Nazi Golden Dawn MP Panagiotis Iliopoulos amid shouts of "Heil Hitler."

Iliopoulos was ordered out of the session after insulting members of the leftist Syriza party, according to Greek news site Ekathimerini.

Despite repeated warnings, Iliopoulos continued his verbal abuse, calling his colleagues "goats," "scoundrels," and "wretched people," according to Euronews. Security was called to forcibly eject the controversial politician, the site reported.

Several cries of "Heil Hitler" are audible in a video of the scrum (above). It is still unclear who exactly led the offensive cheers.

State-run Athens News Agency claimed Golden Dawn parliament spokesperson Christos Pappas uttered the words, according to Agence France-Presse. Golden Dawn denied the accusation, though Pappas has praised Adolf Hitler in the past.

Ekathimerini, citing "Parliament's minutes," claimed it was actually Syriza MP Christos Pantzas who first referenced the Nazi leader. The Syriza party was quick to condemn the jeering while also blaming Golden Dawn for the incident.

"For the second time this week we hear Hitler being glorified inside parliament by Golden Dawn MPs," Syriza MP Stavros Kontonis told Euronews. "It's strange the fact that in order to distance themselves from praising Hitler in a provocative way, they claimed it was me who uttered this phrase ironically. But this is refuted by their own evidence."

In June of 2012, Golden Dawn captured 18 seats in the Greek parlaiment, stunning Europe with its successful anti-immigrant platform. Earlier this week, the Council of Europe's commissioner for human rights stated that Greece had the legal right to ban the party as part of a push to crack down on the country's rise in hate crimes targeting immigrants, the Associated Press reported.

by Anonymousreply 4607/31/2013

"Fascism mounts a comeback in Italy"

ROME, Italy — Its hard to avoid Benito Mussolini in Italy these days.

Pull into a gas station in rural Umbria and the black-shirted dictator glares down from the labels of special-edition wine bottles; browse souvenir shops in Basilicata and there's a phalanx of fake-marble busts of the bald-headed Duce; hunt through Roman antique stores and its easy to uncover hoards of Mussolini memorabilia.

Adolf Hitler's Italian henchman is enjoying a revival, 68 years after he was shot by resistance fighters and strung up in a Milan piazza.

Mussolini has always had a loyal following among the far-right fringe in post-War War II Italy. But now, even many ordinary Italians are defending the father of Fascism as a good leader with sound social policies and a knack for making trains run on time. Later, they say, he was led astray by Hitler and pressured to imposing the anti-Jewish 1938 Laws for the Defense of the Race.

Italy's best-known politician of the current generation chose Holocaust Memorial day to echo such sentiments.

"The racial laws were the worst fault of Mussolini, who in so many other ways did well," former Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said at service on Jan. 27 to remember the 7,500 Italian Jews killed in the Holocaust.

The remarks were met with outrage from Jewish leaders and opponents in the campaign for Italy's general election on Feb. 24-25. But they appear to have done Berlusconi no harm in the polls. An average of opinion surveys posted last week puts his right-wing coalition in second place in the election race with 29.4 percent, slightly higher than his Jan 25 score.

Historian Christopher Duggan says the rehabilitation of Mussolini began in the 1990s, when the fall of the Soviet Union undermined the Italian Communist Party as a major force in Italian politics.

"As the Communist Party collapsed, it allowed the center-right and in particular Berlusconi in the 90s to go on the attack, and to attack not just the former-Communists, but with them their ideology of anti-Fascism," said Duggan, a professor of Modern Italian History at England's University of Reading.

"Anti-Fascism, a founding pillar of the republic, was increasingly discredited by the center-right. This allowed for a reappraisal of the Resistance, the Second World War and more generally of Fascism," he added.

Italy did not undergo a systematic purge of Fascists similar to the de-Nazification campaign that the allies imposed on Germany after World War II.

Although laws were passed in the 1950s to outlaw open support for Fascism, a neo-Fascist party known as the Italian Social Movement, or MSI, was formed shortly after the war and rose to become the country's fourth largest party through the 1970s and 1980s.

Berlusconi's governments in the 1990s and 2000s included several ex-MSI members as ministers.

His former foreign minister, Gianfranco Fini, has since disavowed his 1994 declaration that "Mussolini was the greatest statesman of the century" and moved to the political center. His Future and Freedom party, however, includes among its election candidates Edda Negri Mussolini.

"I'm proud of my grandfather," she told the daily Corriere della Sera recently. He made "monstrous errors," she acknowledged, "but he did many good things."

Another of the dictator's granddaughters, former Playboy model Alessandra Mussolini, is running for re-election on the ticket of Berlusconi's People of Freedom Party. She stormed out of a TV debate last week calling journalist Andrea Scanzi a "dickhead" after he told her had no respect for Il Duce.

Italy's economic woes are adding to the nostalgia for the Fascist era. Growth has stagnated for a decade, and 2013 is set to be the second straight year of recession. Unemployment is now higher than 11 percent with more than one-third of Italians under 25 out of work. The crisis has fueled disaffection with mainstream politicians of all stripes.

Duggan says there's a degree of collective amnesia over the darker side of the Blackshirt era.

"People forget the bigger picture," he told GlobalPost. "Mussolini suppressed freedom, brutally suppressed opponents, clamped down on all rights and had racial laws which were quite central to the ideology of Fascism, not imposed from outside."

Berlusconi's praise for Mussolini was widely seen as an attempt to draw votes from a plethora of small parties on the more radical right.

Other election contenders have reached out to the neo-Fascists. Anti-establishment comedian Beppe Grillo, who is running for prime minister and scores about 15 percent in polls, recently told members of the Fascist-inspired CasaPound organization that some of their ideas could be shared and that they'd be welcome to join his movement.

Named after the American poet Erza Pound, who spent much of World War II making anti-semitic and anti-allied propaganda broadcasts for Mussolini's Radio Rome, CasaPound is one of several radical right-wing groups seeking to gain from the widespread dissatisfaction with established politics.

Divisions among the various far-right groups has weakened their influence. But some still see cause for concern, particularly if the economic situation deteriorates — a prospect many fear if the election results spook markets.

"What reassures me to a degree is that the various currents of the far right are fragmented,' says Duggan, whose new history of Mussolini's Italy, entitled Fascist Voices, will publish this year.

"There is always the potential there," he added. "If things go badly wrong after the elections, if there is instability and a run on the markets. There's always the possibility that things might begin to coagulate."

by Anonymousreply 4707/31/2013

"Clement Meric killing: France bans far-right groups"

France has banned three far-right groups allegedly linked to the death of a left-wing activist in a Paris brawl.

Government spokeswoman Najat Vallaud-Belkacem said the Third Way, the Revolutionary Nationalist Youth (JNR) and the Desire to Dream association had been officially dissolved.

Wednesday's announcement follows the death of Clement Meric, 18.

He was badly beaten in a clash in a busy shopping area between far-right and anti-fascist activists in June.

Five people linked with the banned groups are facing charges over the incident.

Ms Vallaud-Belkacem said the three movements had the characteristics of "private militias" who "provoked discrimination, hate and violence".

French Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault had previously asked the interior minister to take steps "immediately" to dissolve the JNR, the militant wing of the Third Way.

Increasing tension

Serge Ayoub, the leader of both groups, was quoted by Agence France Presse news agency as saying the government's decision was an "abuse of power".

He said he would appeal against it before the Council of State, France's top administrative court.

The groups, which are on the fringes of French politics, have denied any link to the brawl.

Mr Ayoub reportedly said he had already disbanded the two movements in June "so as not to be dissolved by others".

He has been questioned by police following the killing but is not a suspect.

France has seen increasing tension between left and right, following a fierce debate over the introduction of same-sex marriage.

The government has vowed to crackdown on fascist groups.

Mr Meric was placed on life support before being declared brain dead following the fight near St Lazare railway station in the north-west of the French capital.

Paris Prosecutor Francois Molins said witnesses had reported that the two groups had run into each other by chance.

He said the arrested suspects claimed to have responded to provocation by the left-wing group.

The main suspect, named as Esteban Morillo, 20, has been placed under formal investigation for use of violence that led to involuntary manslaughter.

French President Francois Hollande said he condemned the attack "in the strongest terms".

France's main far-right party, the National Front, described the killing of Mr Meric as "appalling".

by Anonymousreply 4807/31/2013

"Poll: Anti-Semitism, Facism Rife in Germany"

A new poll shows a shocking level of anti-Semitism among Germans.

A new poll shows a shocking level of anti-Semitism among Germans. According to the poll, taken by the Friedrich Ebert Foundation (associated with the SPD, the Social Democratic Party of Germany), 15.8% of German residents in the former East German part of the country identify themselves with the fascistic far right, and subscribe to its beliefs, including hatred of Jews.

That high level of anti-Semitism in eastern Germany is enough to taint the entire country as anti-Semitic; one out of every eleven Germans hates Jews, the poll showed. Approximately 7.6% of Germans residing in the western part of the country identify with the far right. That was up slightly since the last poll two years ago, when the figure in western Germany was 7.3%, In eastern Germany, the figure on anti-Semitism two years ago was 10.5%. Anti-immigrant stances were marked among those identifying with the far right, as over a quarter of those polled said that they wanted to rid Germany of foreign workers. Here, too, there were significant differences between the west – where 20% of those polled admitted to hating foreigners – and the east, where the number was nearly double. Perhaps most worrying, the Foundation said, is that Germans age 14-30 seemed to prefer a strong dictatorship to the current democracy in the country. The desire for a dictatorship fell dramatically after age 30, with the least number supporting it around the age of 60. Oliver Dekker, one of the designers of the poll, said that the difficult economic problems in eastern Germany probably contributed to the poll's results, and to the feeling among many that they need a strong leader to set things right.

by Anonymousreply 4907/31/2013

Should we go into the UK's automatic internet porn ban?

by Anonymousreply 5007/31/2013

Yeah it's the end, Greece killed the Euro, except that it didn't...And Spain and Italy became the new Greece, except they didn't. And the UK will leave the EU, except they didn't...

by Anonymousreply 5107/31/2013

These posts are getting very long.

by Anonymousreply 5207/31/2013

You queens declaring Europe nothing but a tourist trap just wish you could afford an Audi or BMW.

by Anonymousreply 5307/31/2013

Online news articles not written by an actual correspondent but cobbled together in 10 minutes from an internet search. That gives a real taste of real life in Europe!

Funny, I'm Marine le Pen yet also "oh brother" for mentioning the murder of Trayvon Martin.

Americans are funny: on the one hand one lot of you claim we're a bunch of fascists, on other other another lot claims we're being taken over by Muslims and Africans.

OP, in answer to your question: no, we're going to be around for a long time.

by Anonymousreply 5407/31/2013

I want Europe to be ok. I love Europe!

by Anonymousreply 5507/31/2013

We're OK, R55! Personally this is the best standard of living I've ever had, bar when I was a student.

by Anonymousreply 5607/31/2013

I rather be Jewish in Germany than Black in the US.

by Anonymousreply 5707/31/2013

R33, yes, that's exactly right. Cheers.

by Anonymousreply 5807/31/2013

I was a student in France years ago - I'd travel all over, to Germany and Italy and Belgium, the UK, etc. I remember back then it was just after the Wall fell, going through what was East Berlin before post-Wall reconstruction, looking at all the bombed-out buildings that had never been rebuilt, and never been torn down. I haven't been back to Berlin for quite some time, but I've heard it's all new and shiny now.

Anyway, the point is, those who yearn for a return to Nazi-ism and Hitler and Mussolini are likely to young to remember these things. I remember thinking to myself, "this is Hitler's legacy - the total self-destruction of a culture."

So I guess if today's hoodlums want to destroy themselves in some way or another, it's sad, but what can you do to stop it in a free society?

by Anonymousreply 5907/31/2013

It seem that the days of the Euro are numbered, but the EU will survive.

by Anonymousreply 6007/31/2013

If I may say a word...

For a fascist country of that time, Italy was not that bad--before the invasion of the Nazis. If you were Jewish--they turned a blind eye. If you were writing "seditious" pamphlets or organizing the resistance, they didn't shoot you or send you to a concentration camp. They instead made you move to some rural part of the country where you wouldn't be a nuisance. Yeah, it was boring: you spent your days teaching the peasants how to read, but you didn't lose your life.

The Italians, including Mussolini, never took that fascist shit seriously.

by Anonymousreply 6107/31/2013

Yes, OP, you hopeless drama queen. It will now be possible to sail directly from Dover to Asia.

by Anonymousreply 6207/31/2013

"70%, aren't you exaggerating just a bit??"

-No, r38. In somme towns like Grigny, Mantes-La-Jolie, Trappes (in the Paris region) the numbers are even higher.

Most schoolchildren are entirely from immigrant origin.

by Anonymousreply 6307/31/2013

One of History's scariest lessons is that when times of great economic strife occur there will always be a contingent of opportunistic rabble who seize the moment to alienate and ostracize a minority group.

Look at the KKK in America. During the Reconstruction Era when the South was in tatters, they first emerged and then was beaten back by Unionist troops. Then during the Great Depression in the 1930s they rose again and took hold.

Economic downturns always coincide with people trying to scapegoat a minority group.

by Anonymousreply 6407/31/2013

The end of Europe? Countries like Luxembourg, Norway and Switzerland and Sweden are richer than the US in terms of GDP per capita, most EU nations have higher social mobility than the US and some nations like Germany have less debt than the US and actually still have a high level of manufacturing. Even post-recession London is still one of the world's leading financial centres, and France is the most visited nation on earth with Paris its most beautiful city. If you count Russia as part of Europe and added Turkey, Europe could even be a match for the likes of the US and China, not that it really wants to be a superpower anymore and who can blame the Europeans, being a superpower is sometimes more trouble than good!

by Anonymousreply 6507/31/2013

Europe is over in the sense that they can no longer be a voice in geopolitical power structures.

Of course small little bank shelter countries like Switzerland and Luxembourg are going to be A-okay. They have a very small, homogeneous population to deal with. It's countries like England, France, Germany and Spain were there are many different kinds of people that are having a tough time dealing with social issues.

When everyone looks exactly like you (Sweden, Iceland etc) then it's much easier to relate to your poorer citizens and want to help them. When your poor citizens are Middle Eastern and African immigrants you view them as outsiders and don't want to help them.

by Anonymousreply 6607/31/2013

66 France and the UK are still permanent members of the UN Security Council, and they are also in the G8 and G20 along with Italy and Germany so of course they will still have a role. As for growing minority populations, well the US will be minority majority well before Europe, some estimates say as early as 2040!

by Anonymousreply 6707/31/2013

Yep R60, economically there is a struggle, and it reflects on social issues, but Europeans are very much European, and proudly so.

by Anonymousreply 6807/31/2013

I do worry about what's eventually going to happen with all the third-world immigrants in Europe. European history has shown us time and time again that there is always a tipping point with people from other cultures/regions moving in on that turf. Things reach a certain level, and then the natives go crazy and all hell breaks loose. I really think there is going to be a breaking point in the years to come.

by Anonymousreply 6907/31/2013

Beautiful people in the Spring

by Anonymousreply 7007/31/2013

R63 You are definitely talking about "les banlieues". And yet this is not true of all "banlieues", some are on the contrary all-white: Vincennes, Versailles... (yes Versailles is a banlieue; it's just a suburb of Paris). I work in a banlieue so yes perhaps half the population there is of various origin, most were born in France anyway, in that very banlieue so it's their home. What is your home btw? Are you for or against mixed marriages and the children they produce? What is their home?

I wasn't born in France but my mother is French, I've lived here for 16 years but I look white, does that make it more okay? Is it more my home then? Than for a girl my age who is black and was born here?

And then you'll have different populations in smaller towns, in villages, in seaside towns, in university towns with a dynamic industry, in the centre of France... France is very diverse and it's fine that way.

For all the Americans reading, yes France is much more racist and much less generous than America apparently. It lacks the dynamic you see in London, and it is too scared of anything that's different. Many, many French people are not like this at all, but it's a struggle to get rid of that conservative (and patriarchial) mentality. The country is almost as conservative as Italy, and managed to hide it well until recently.

AND NO, Islam and Muslims were NOT behind the demonstrations against marriage equality this past year. If you are that troll spreading those lies, I was there.

by Anonymousreply 7107/31/2013

Yep, there was a tipping point when all those Europeans settled in the Americas. I believe that tipping point was the Trail of Tears? Or was it Wounded Knee? Perhaps it was Little Big Horn. The natives went crazy, that's for sure.

Not to mention those native Mayas, Aztecs, Incas... Another bunch of natives that went crazy with all those foreigners coming into their land.

by Anonymousreply 7207/31/2013

Hey r66, did you know that yesterday Catherine Ashton, the EU foreign affairs chief, met with Mohammed Morsi, the ousted (and elected) leader of Egypt, whom the army had arrested? This was the first meeting he had with anyone from outside of Egypt since being deposed. She's also been discussing matters with the army leaders and Europe seems set to play a mediating role in this intractable but crucial issue. Her in-depth meetings were appreciated by all sides. Now, can someone tell me why the fuck Obama is sending those two goons, McCain and Graham, to Egypt?

by Anonymousreply 7307/31/2013

r72, are you living in a first-world country and enjoying a standard of living and freedom that the European colonialism brought about? Then shut the fuck up. History is violent, awful and unfair. It just was what is was. Unless you would like to hand over the deed of your house and your bank account to the nearest Native American tribe, you can sit back and enjoy everything civilization brought to you.

by Anonymousreply 7407/31/2013

Europe is actually doing pretty well these days. My financial advisor, who is quite astute, has directed a largish fraction of my investments into European stocks. The crisis of last Winter seems over.

by Anonymousreply 7507/31/2013

If History is violent and unfair and just the way it is, then why is anyone worrying about African immigration into Europe? Why should it be violent, and if it is, it's just History being violent and unfair. Whatever standard of living anyone might be enjoying anywhere. We may live in the same place and have very different lives anyway, regardless of infrastructures.

by Anonymousreply 7607/31/2013

I read in a book somewhere that in this century civil unrest, and ultimately civil war will do us in.

This was about the state of the world in general.

by Anonymousreply 7707/31/2013

If Europe is so over, why are so many people from the crap countries clamoring to get in, even risking life and limb?

by Anonymousreply 7807/31/2013

If Europe is so over, why are Americans (and the Chinese) flooding to the continent?

by Anonymousreply 7907/31/2013
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