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Am I the only one who doesn't care about the government possibly listening to phone calls?

It's way down on the bottom of my list of things to get worked up about. I just don't care. If you're not doing anything wrong, what's the big deal?

by Anonymousreply 25209/02/2013

You're an idiot.

by Anonymousreply 106/10/2013

and who makes phone calls nowadays anyway?

by Anonymousreply 206/10/2013

Obviously you are not the only one. Your particular kind of apathy and acquiescence in a police state is epidemic.

by Anonymousreply 306/10/2013

I agree with OP. I've always assumed they've been doing such, and more.... This is hardly news.

by Anonymousreply 506/10/2013

It's news because it's now been documented. Clapper lied under oath, which is what Clinton was impeached over. Government officials lying is not something we should tolerate if we want to retain any rights.

by Anonymousreply 606/10/2013

You are assuming the ones listening share your same idea of right vs.mwrong.

by Anonymousreply 706/10/2013

Yes, OP. You're the only one on this entire planet who doesn't care. You're very special.

by Anonymousreply 806/10/2013

The government (or actually, in the more common case, private contractors working for the government) are only gathering "metadata" on phone calls in the U.S. But they are also gathering virtually all interpersonal social network connections that pass through U.S. servers. That's the scarier part of all this: PRISM, which will keep your data forever. For now, it's just about tracing terrorists. But that will change.

by Anonymousreply 906/10/2013

I'm guessing a majority of the public agrees with OP - that they have nothing to hide, and more important things to worry about.

But remember OP, you may be completely innocent, but that doesn't mean you won't get caught up in some dragnet because, unbeknownst to you, the person who mowed your lawn last year was childhood friends with the cousin of a suspected terrorist, etc.

Here in Oregon, Brendon Mayfield spent six weeks in prison because the FBI mixed up his fingerprints with those of someone in Saudi Arabia or some such place.

The IRS is prone to the same kind of mistakes. Just because you've done nothing wrong, doesn't mean you're protected, and the more data they collect, the potential for that kind of mix-up grows.

by Anonymousreply 1006/10/2013

I don't care either. This is just taking the focus off the damage the GOP is doing to the country. Darrel Issa's IRS scandal has been found to be a pile of bullshit but no one is even talking about this now. The GOP has managed to get liberals against Obama and that was the plan all along. Snowden and Greenwald are Ron Paul supporters who hate government and Obama.

by Anonymousreply 1106/10/2013

I just want to go on record as stating I have THE MOST uninteresting phone calls in the world.

by Anonymousreply 1206/10/2013

A lot of the data is sold to advertisers right?

by Anonymousreply 1306/10/2013

[quote]For now, it's just about tracing terrorists. But that will change.

Mary! It's this kind of over-dramatic hyperbole that makes you look like a tin-hat.

by Anonymousreply 1406/10/2013

I hope this takes Obama down. He knew this shit was going on and didn't do a damn thing. What a tool.

by Anonymousreply 1506/10/2013

It won't R15.

by Anonymousreply 1606/10/2013

You'll care when they throw you in a FEMA camp.

by Anonymousreply 1706/10/2013

I don't see a problem with this at all! What could possibly go wrong!

by Anonymousreply 1806/10/2013

Just in case they are listening I'm going to start saying "Michelle, I'm sorry about the mean lesbian" every time I answer the phone.

by Anonymousreply 1906/10/2013

They're going to make you build FEMA camps r17, and then kill you.

I have already turned your name in.

by Anonymousreply 2006/10/2013

They need to set it up so if someone in the government wants the meta-data about a phone call, they first have to listen to the entire call. No one should have a problem with that.

by Anonymousreply 2206/10/2013

They are NOT listening.

They are recording and keeping your calls, texts, e-mails and web searches forever. All of this data is searchable so they might pull up all instances of Gwyneth Paltrow being called a cunt by anyone who has a paid subscription to Datalounge and recently travelled to London in coach.

At some time in the future, they may do a routine screening when you apply for a government job. Further in the future the government might be looking for "subversives." And people who associate with subversives.

The infrastructure for all this is already in place and operating. Are you confident that it will always be used legally with oversight?

by Anonymousreply 2306/10/2013

[quote]The government is not reading emails or listening to phone calls. They're gathering meta-data. Things like who you call, when, and how often... aggregating things together to look for patterns.

You misunderstand. They are only authorized to look at the metadata without a warrant, but they are recording everything and they can review it with proper authority.

by Anonymousreply 2506/10/2013

If Emoprogs knew that Greenwald worked for Koch, CATo and Neo Nazi Groups, they wouldn't believe it sadly.

by Anonymousreply 2606/10/2013

R3 wrote:

[quote]Your particular kind of apathy and acquiescence in a police state is epidemic.

And, really rather essential!!

[quote]Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. [italic] Attributed to Jefferson, but believed to have originated with Benjamin Franklin. [/italic]

by Anonymousreply 2706/10/2013

I could not give a fuck either. As a matter of fact, I hope Obama is reading this thread. Hey gurl!

by Anonymousreply 2806/10/2013

It doesn't surprise me, and I'll agree, on the list of things that worry me, it's way the fuck down toward the bottom.

I'm a private person but not worried that my secrets will be laid out, nor worried that it's some tragic step on a "slippery slope".

The entirely willing, ceaseless divulgence of personal detail and wallowing in self-indulgent minutiae that is Facebook and a lot of social media is farm more insidious -- if not so much for trampling personal liberties but for dumbing down the whole fucking world. The inability to edit or to think before blurting out and sharing everything voluntarily, and with religious fervor troubles me more than trawling metadata for patterns of association in electronic communication.

by Anonymousreply 2906/10/2013

It bothers me although I have nothing to hide. It's a total invasion of privacy and something that I would not have expected from the Obama administration.

The real terrorists are in Congress....

by Anonymousreply 3006/10/2013

This is as scary as Wikileaks. Not bothered at all.

by Anonymousreply 3106/10/2013

Let's review. The Republican strategy, as revealed by Lee Atwater and developed by Karl Rove, was to identify intelligent articulate "leader" type people who might rise to power in the opposing party. And destroy them before they become public figures. They tried and failed to do this with Clinton, but they can easily do it now. They can get your neighbors to file phoney liens against you and then steal your mail so you don't even know it. They can track your car and see whom you meet with. They can send city inspectors round to condemn your property on trumped up charges. They could rupture a gas line in front of your house hoping you'll be asphyxiated before you know it. The first day you are late with your car registration renewal they can instruct the police to follow you and give you a ticket. There's a million things people can do when they know everything you say and everyplace you go and everything you buy and increasingly these days, all your health conditions. If you depend on a certain drug they can intercept a shipment so your pharmacy runs out.

Knowledge is power, and anyone who is not subject to oversight will abuse that power.

by Anonymousreply 3206/10/2013

The verizon thing doesn't bother me but you know they will abuse the power they have over us, IRS as a prime example.

How about that US ambassador who is trouble overseas? He or She bought tricks and they are supposed to be minors!

by Anonymousreply 3306/10/2013

I can't imagine the government giving two shits about my conversations with my mother, the only person I really call, because I text friends. I don't think the gov't cares about my texts 'U go-n 2 da club 2night?' or my grindr profile. Hey gov't guys, I'm a bottom and my hole is huuuuunnnnggggrrrryyy. Come and get it feds, I'm presenting right now.

by Anonymousreply 3406/10/2013

It bothers me just as much now as when I first heard about it back in 2003, then again in 2005, and again in 2006...

by Anonymousreply 3506/10/2013

I didn't like it when Bush did it, and I certainly don't like it when a supposed Constitutional scholar who in 2007 said we can't surrender our liberty for security.

What happened to all the people who were against Bush's Patriot Act? Now that Obama does it, it's okay? Now you don't care. You should care because the envelope is going to get pushed further and further. Obama's term ends in 2016. Are you okay with a so-called national security hawk as President knowing the power he has because of Bush and Obama?

by Anonymousreply 3606/10/2013

So if the MSM 'found out' about this, can you imagine what else is going on?

Just assume you have little privacy in this digital age.

by Anonymousreply 3706/11/2013

I trust Obama.

by Anonymousreply 3806/11/2013

The marketing department of every corporation you have contact with is gathering meta data about you. There is no privacy anymore. On the other hand, there is so much data that no one has the time to actually care about some particular individual unless you do something that causes people to get interested in you.

by Anonymousreply 3906/11/2013

Greenwald's history? No mystery why he said Bush judgment should be "deferred to", but started despising Oval Office occupant come Jan '09.

by Anonymousreply 4006/11/2013

You have nothing to hide therefore you don't care someone violate your privacy? Oh my how can I possibly argue with that!

by Anonymousreply 4106/11/2013

You're an idiot R38. You don't know who these people are who are listening to calls. Most likely, they are 20 or 30 somethings, and many of them are probably psycho-crazy.

Most of you are saying it's okay because I'm a passive person who is uninvolved in politics, etc. and my answer is, that's why the country is fucked and going down the tubes, because you people are defending yourselves against this sort of thing by non-participation. That means democracy is already dead.

by Anonymousreply 4206/11/2013

R36, I didn't care when W did it and I don't care that this thing is back in the news. I don't care if they track me in the internet or if they scan me at the airport. This isn't V. The government hasn't been taken over by Diana and the visitors.

by Anonymousreply 4306/11/2013

You trust Obama r38, but will you trust the next President? The gov't reach will get wider and deeper as technology advances. Your way of thinking is too myopic.

No. I don't think Snowden is a whistleblower. I think he's a coward snitch. But our private data is held by private security companies. I guess the gov't decided to outsource their responsibility.

by Anonymousreply 4406/11/2013

[quote]You trust Obama [R38], but will you trust the next President?

Yeah, I think I'd trust Hillary.

by Anonymousreply 4506/11/2013

I'm still not worried about it. It doesn't even surprise me that it's happening at all. You folks are naive to think it wouldn't.

by Anonymousreply 4606/11/2013

[quote]Yeah, I think I'd trust Hillary.

So did Vince Foster.

by Anonymousreply 4706/11/2013

[all posts by tedious troll removed.]

by Anonymousreply 4806/11/2013

i was surprised to learn that the whistle blower is a high school dropout! how did he get into the army? he was let go from the army coz he broke both his legs! then he worked for CIA in switzerland, and later this company...

high school dropout!!!

by Anonymousreply 4906/11/2013

I stopped posting on FB and got tired of Twitter about 4 years ago. It wasn't tough at all.

It doesn't take a genius to see that one no longer has privacy when you connect all your accounts to social media. Or that cell phone communication wouldn't be tracked as land lines once were.

by Anonymousreply 5006/11/2013

Maybe this makes me a bad person, but I don't actually care. I can't think of anything I do legally or politically that would make a good headline. I mean, even if I was a small time criminal, I'm pretty sure they would have bigger fish to fry than me. Think of all the creepy ass ricin, anthrax, and bomb makers out there.

by Anonymousreply 5106/11/2013

A Panopticon doesn't harm people. It maintains order and keeps everyone safe.

by Anonymousreply 5206/11/2013

[quote]This isn't V. The government hasn't been taken over by Diana and the visitors.

No, it's worse. The people doing it aren't alien lizards, they're the people we trust to protect our privacy.

I have nothing to hide but some things are a matter of principle. My employer retains the right to do random drug testing. I don't even smoke pot but I don't want my piss tested.

If I had epilepsy, phenobarbital might show up. If I had narcolepsy, amphetamines might be detected. I'm not an air traffic controller or pilot or even a bus driver. There's no need to test for any controlled substances.

Jesus, I do take codeine cough syrup when I have a bad cold. Given the abuse of "sirzzup" even that could look bad.

Yes, invasions of privacy--especially under the guise of national security--are dangerous to freedom and democracy.

by Anonymousreply 5306/11/2013

[quote] No, it's worse. The people doing it aren't alien lizards, they're the people we trust to protect our privacy.

I have nothing to hide but some things are a matter of principle. My employer retains the right to do random drug testing. I don't even smoke pot but I don't want my piss tested.

If I had epilepsy, phenobarbital might show up. If I had narcolepsy, amphetamines might be detected. I'm not an air traffic controller or pilot or even a bus driver. There's no need to test for any controlled substances.

Jesus, I do take codeine cough syrup when I have a bad cold. Given the abuse of "sirzzup" even that could look bad.

Yes, invasions of privacy--especially under the guise of national security--are dangerous to freedom and democracy.

Good grief, smoke something or take Xanax or Zoloft. Life is so, so short to be that anxious and paranoid. It also helps to get outside and take walks.

by Anonymousreply 5406/11/2013

[quote]At some time in the future, they may do a routine screening when you apply for a government job.

Bet they wish they had PRISM before they hired the contractor that hired Greenwald.

by Anonymousreply 5506/11/2013

I love the polls that are showing its only freepers and the bullshit media that care at all,about any of these "scandals". The people that voted for The President are happy with him. These obstructionist douche bags are still choking on their own rage,that they lost TWICE. Guess what they're gonna lose at least twice more HA!

by Anonymousreply 5606/11/2013

Interesting the guy was only there three months and then runs off to Hong Kong China and holes up in a $300 a night hotel. Who set this up and is financing him?

by Anonymousreply 5706/11/2013

r57, I read on FB (one of my friend's posts) that he was paid 200K at his job.

by Anonymousreply 5806/11/2013

From what I understand, he was only at that 200K job for three months.

by Anonymousreply 5906/11/2013

He did not graduate from high school yet this government contractor is paying him $200,000 a year? WTF?

by Anonymousreply 6006/11/2013

You may have nothing to hide, OP, but that's not the point. The problem is the eroding respect for laws in place. If laws have been broken & the President, the Attorney General, the American people don't take issue, that's a problem. If the powers-that-be want to change the law, then let them work toward that end; meanwhile, they need to work within the confines of the laws that exist. Otherwise, it's a free-for-all.

by Anonymousreply 6106/11/2013

well, he did computer work for the CIA in Switzerland. Who knows? Maybe he shifted some $$ into his own swiss bank account?

I'm sure he has a plan B, one does not make such a drastic move without it.

by Anonymousreply 6206/11/2013

If you cared when Bush did, than you're an idiot.

Should laws only apply to republicans?

by Anonymousreply 6306/11/2013

Obama can shit right on my face and it'd be alrighty with little old me!

by Anonymousreply 6406/11/2013

Op, why are you asking this? You do realize DL is full of idiots that don't question anything the obama administration does right?

by Anonymousreply 6506/11/2013

OP who defines "wrong"?

by Anonymousreply 6606/11/2013

off topic, someone make a thread. More police brutality!!

And you dumbasses want these people to be the only people around with guns??

by Anonymousreply 6706/11/2013

These issues were a lot easier for citizens to understand when illegal search and seizure meant a government employee knocking on your door without merit and entering your home and physically searching all of your belongings for no reason.

Because of technological advances, the government can do the same thing, but without it's citizens knowing. Of course, it is still illegal search and seizure, but we care a lot less, because we don't understand the reality of it.

Another example of technology advancing further and faster than our minds or law or our understanding of liberty have the capacity to grasp.

by Anonymousreply 6806/11/2013

[quote]it is still illegal search and seizure, but we care a lot less

To put it more accurately: "it is still illegal search and seizure, but our courts lie about it."

by Anonymousreply 6906/11/2013

I'm personally going out and buy a roll of aluminum foil so as to make a hat to ward off the brain readers in black. Alex Jones is my new savior!

by Anonymousreply 7006/11/2013

for those of you who think this is harmless if you're not doing anything wrong...

by Anonymousreply 7106/11/2013

[quote]You are assuming the ones listening share your same idea of right vs. wrong.

R7 hit the nail squarely on its head. To all "aw shucks, I don't have anything to hide, listen all you want", this is what it boils down to. The gov't doesn't always have the citizens' best interest at in mind. And with such a vast database, squashing any opposition will be made easier.

And to outsource it makes it twice a clusterfuck.

by Anonymousreply 7206/11/2013

Thanks R1, my thoughts exactly. R14, please see R1's comment.

by Anonymousreply 7306/11/2013

They stole my Rhubarb pie recipe and I'm pissed off.

by Anonymousreply 7406/11/2013

Thin end of the wedge, as they say.

by Anonymousreply 7506/11/2013

Information stored in computers or clouds or whatever is just scary. I had a chat conversation some ten years ago with a guy and relogged on my email several years later and it's just scary to see the exact conversation being preserved as is. Some things you just want to forget, but they can't be erased.

We lived in a much freer world some twenty years ago.

Internet is both our blessing and our curse.

by Anonymousreply 7606/11/2013

Republicans hollering about this are so hypocritical.

by Anonymousreply 7706/11/2013

The gov't reach will get wider and deeper

Yea baby get that whole hand in there.

by Anonymousreply 7806/11/2013

Yes, R26, most of them. They don't care about his personal agenda, and believe he's some kind of impartial journalist.

by Anonymousreply 7906/11/2013

I agree and think there's a lot of media hyperbole (spefically the Guardian, which wants to establish itself internationally in the digital age, especially in the US). People like Assange or papers like the Guardian actively go out looking for "whistleblowers" so they can break a good "story" but all they've got are these non-stories where there is no leak of a great scandal a la Watergate but just these accumulated stories that don't really add up to anything. This Snowden geezer is just another one trying to find his 15 minutes of fame and glory. His attempts to claim that Hong Kong is a logical place for someone who believes in free speech go to raise all sorts of red flags for me.

Apparently a fifth of the world's population is already willingly and daily giving its detailed metadata over to a corporation to be sold to advertisors or accessed by government.

What a surprise, Snowden is a Ron Paul supporter.

by Anonymousreply 8006/11/2013

[quote]Jesus, I do take codeine cough syrup when I have a bad cold. Given the abuse of "sirzzup" even that could look bad.

It's [italic]sizzurp,[/italic] R53/54. And I could give a shit what THEY have on me. Long as I got my stuff.

by Anonymousreply 8106/11/2013

Really helped catch the Boston terrorists.

by Anonymousreply 8206/11/2013

R54 I don't think you understand the concept of paranoia. These aren't imaginary acts the government is perpetrating.

Why are psychiatric terms so misused on DL?

by Anonymousreply 8306/11/2013

R82. It did. Has everyone already forgotten the REAMS AND REAMS of information the govt and it's agencies HAD gathered on the 2 bombers? All courtesy of Prism and the Patriot act. But then peoples pesky civil liberties kick in and the govt. can only proceed so far. So what's it going to be? Everyone want to feel safe and snug and SMUG about living in AMURRICA or do you want absolute absolution from the government(and to a much larger degree, corporate AMURRICA). The government has taken nothing from us that we didn't volunteer to give them. Remember that as you upgrade you i-phone this weekend.

by Anonymousreply 8406/11/2013

Thank you OP! This is yet another controversy that the press and Repugs are creating as diversions. They are trying to get away from their lack of passing anything like budgets and immigration reform.

The Prism program does not listen to your phone calls. It tracks your patterns by computer. Private industry monitors these things too. You still need a warrant to listen into your conversations. I'm not a terrorist so I'm not worried. Terrorists have been caught by this program.

Bush tried warrantless phone taps but he got caught. Why would anyone think that we just did away with all these programs after Bush left. At this point I worry more about driving through the Lincoln Tunnel safely.

Now can we talk about improving infrastructure and getting people back to work?

by Anonymousreply 8506/11/2013

This all first hit the news/press in 2006 under the Patriot act. The bill was renewed during Obama's first administration by both house of Congess. We have a bit more detail about what is going on, is all- but why is everyone acting like this is something new? If the American people and Congress were so against this kind of surveillance, then why was the Patriot Act renewed with bipartisan support and consent by the American people?

Am I missing something?

(I have been against most of what is in the Patriot Act since the Bush administration, but I have figured I am in the minority.)

by Anonymousreply 8606/11/2013

Thanks, r85. I've seen Snowdon's interview (which gave me the impression that he is an ideologue, not an ordinary guy who became disturbed by what he saw, as he tries to present himself) and read various articles but, once getting past all the hot air, I haven't quite worked out what the allegations are. There are lots of hypotheticals - they could do this, they could do that - but no examples where any of these hypothetical actions have violated any specific individual's civil liberties. Beyond the hot air, the data gathering that is "revealed" seems to be what we already knew about and is permissible.

by Anonymousreply 8706/11/2013

I don't trust them with my data and privacy issues are high for me. I don't want people to have access to private things and there ARE nosy or unscrupulous people out there who will abuse that kind of access.

by Anonymousreply 8806/11/2013

None of this shit is new. The NSA has been recording international phone calls for decades.

You have little or no privacy and never really did. You can be stopped and frisked and your bags searched on the streets of New York City for absolutely no reason.

If you are walking on the street you are probably under some sort of surveillance (I'm including cameras outside homes). I report on 60 minutes a few weeks back showed how governments are pretty close to being able to recognize anyone on the street with a camera and know their name and just about everything about them immediately.

The current outrage is a laugh! Americans are so fucking stupid.

by Anonymousreply 8906/11/2013

[quote] If you're not doing anything wrong, what's the big deal?

This is a ridiculous statement, and one you want to avoid if you're going to try and engage in a serious discussion about the topic. Really, this has never been a good defense for governmental surveillance.

It ignores the principal of the matter.

I actually am not outraged by the revelations about PRISM, but not because I have nothing to hide. I just accept that this is the consequence of living in the Information Age.

by Anonymousreply 9006/11/2013

As others have said, how is this kind of surveillance such 'breaking news'? i remember reading about these issues in 2001 during cheney/bush when the patriot act was first passed, then in 2006 when it was renewed, and then when it was renewed again during obama's first term by both houses of congress (and there have been a handful of 'whistleblowers' before snowden...) and who doesn't know by now that EVERY word you type in an email or on a blog could be accessed by TPTB?

by Anonymousreply 9106/11/2013

While I have nothing to hide regarding the people I call and the people who call me, doesn't this involve unreasonable search and seizure?

by Anonymousreply 9206/11/2013

NO!!

by Anonymousreply 9306/11/2013

The current outrage is a laugh! Americans are so fucking stupid.

You got that right. We're playing into the Republican's hand right now.

by Anonymousreply 9506/11/2013

I find it shocking - the number of conspiracy theorists on DL.

I compare this to wearing a condom during sex. You know that it would feel much better without the condom, but you put on the stupid condom because it makes you safer. Maybe not totally safe, but safer than you would be without wearing it.

I think the sad part of this thing is that people aren't more outraged that an unattractive high school drop out and Ron Paul supporter was pulling in $200K a year.

by Anonymousreply 9606/11/2013

is he unattractive

should unattractive people only make 10 cents a day

by Anonymousreply 9706/11/2013

If you're uneducated and unattractive you should be stuck in a dead end retail job.

by Anonymousreply 9806/11/2013

I think many of us who have been following the work of EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation) and writers like Cory Doctorow saw this coming.

The German Stasi...the secret police...created a pervasive surveillance society which we've now replicated or even exceeded. The warning this was coming: DHS hired former head of the Stasi Markus Wolf back in 2004.

by Anonymousreply 9906/11/2013

My phone was tapped when I was a teen in the 70s. My sister and her friends did a lot of drugs and sold some, too.

If the police or govt want to get you, they'll get you.

by Anonymousreply 10006/11/2013

You people who call "republican" when ANYONE is objective to Obama is why they can get away with anything and everything.

This was attempted by the republicans, dumbasses! Clearly, this is something elected officials in both parties want.

by Anonymousreply 10106/11/2013

OP, I assume (and hope) that you are under 30 since that generation has so little knowledge of history or respect for it. You (and the others of your ilk on this thread) need to study history and tyranny before shrugging your (padded) shoulders and learn before it's too late.

by Anonymousreply 10206/11/2013

We know have an EXTENDED patriot act~!

by Anonymousreply 10306/11/2013

[quote]I don't care either. This is just taking the focus off the damage the GOP is doing to the country. Darrel Issa's IRS scandal has been found to be a pile of bullshit but no one is even talking about this now. The GOP has managed to get liberals against Obama and that was the plan all along. Snowden and Greenwald are Ron Paul supporters who hate government and Obama.

Wow, you are some kinda crazy.

by Anonymousreply 10406/11/2013

I am one of OP's ilk and I can assure you that not only am I over 30, I am quite knowledgable in history. There is no time since the beginning of this country that we have been in so much danger from the outside and where information so easily accessible to the wrong people. There needs to be a balance between privacy and safety.

In this day and age you are being watched and recorded on many different levels. If you don't like it stay off the internet and your phone.

by Anonymousreply 10506/11/2013

Anyone who thinks there is or EVER was any semblance of privacy on the internet is an idiot. This "whistleblower" only exists to those naive and ignorant. ALL societies have done this in one form or another since the dawn of civilization. The only difference now is we have the tool named "internet" which is faster and more encompassing than a staff of humans. If you don't like it, you can unplug. UNPLUG! But there is no way you can stop ANY government from utilizing current technology. J. Edgar Hoover would've creamed himself if he had access to the internet. This Snowdon is naive if he thought any other country was somehow pristine in this. If he wants to get away from it, he best move to Africa and hang his hat with a Bushman tribe.

The only thing this "whistleblower" did is give and will give additional fodder and amusement to our "frienemies.". Our frienemies are not so hot headed. They patiently watch and wait.

by Anonymousreply 10606/11/2013

Honestly, I am more outraged at the everyday things that have us under surveillance - like Facebook and corporate America that sell our information right and left.

by Anonymousreply 10706/11/2013

"This "whistleblower" only exists to those naive and ignorant. "

Then why are they trying to prosecute the guy?

by Anonymousreply 10806/11/2013

The chinese are behind this guy.

by Anonymousreply 10906/11/2013

"This "whistleblower" only exists to those naive and ignorant. "

if you believe that, you are in no place to call anyone "naive" or "ignorant". Now go back to your Democrat worshiping and Republican bashing for doing the SAME fucking things.

by Anonymousreply 11006/11/2013

108, Because he had a job that gave him access to classified US government info and is running to foreign governments with it. He is a traitor.

by Anonymousreply 11106/11/2013

110, I see you play football.

by Anonymousreply 11206/11/2013

I agree that the Chinese are with this guy too. There is definitely something amiss here.

by Anonymousreply 11306/11/2013

This isn't about Obama. The program started under Bush and will continue under the next President.

by Anonymousreply 11406/11/2013

THEY'RE NOT LISTENING TO YOUR PHONE CALLS!!

Jesus Christ are people now that fucking dumb or what. Billions of phone calls are made in this country every day. Do you actually think the government has the manpower to worry about what 99.999999% of them are about?

by Anonymousreply 11506/11/2013

apparently, he has been fired today and they said he made $122,000 a year and not $200,000.

by Anonymousreply 11606/11/2013

Your are so right R115. This is why I do not understand the outrage. We are all playing right into the Republicans hands. And you know what? It's working for them. Wait until you see what the Senate does with a Republican majority next year.

Gays, women, immigrants, poor people-we won't stand a chance.

by Anonymousreply 11706/11/2013

r111 You're full of shit. He ran to Hong Kong so he WON'T be prosecuted. And I don't blame him! He's gonna be sent to the middle east with Bradley Manning, who did nothing but expose war crimes.

Run,man run!!!

by Anonymousreply 11806/11/2013

'We are all playing right into the Republicans hands. And you know what? It's working for them. Wait until you see what the Senate does with a Republican majority next year. "

blah blah blah republican blah blah blah repugs blah blah blah ^yawn^

Not everything is about republicans vs democrats.

by Anonymousreply 11906/11/2013

They make fools think of politics like some sort of sporting match so it keeps everyone from being OBJECTIVE. all people want is for is their team or "party" to be in office. They can do anything they want and people will blindly sign off on it.

They also want people to think abortion rights are in danger to keep people on different sides.

by Anonymousreply 12006/11/2013

r114 I thought Obama was against the patriot act and was going to undo it?

No, he EXPANDED it.

by Anonymousreply 12106/11/2013

Actually, if you look beneath all of this, it's about the power of the computer age we live in. This is the true basis of the underlying paranoia and why people are so freaked. Human nature does not change, technology does and we will modify our world in fear on the concrete basis we always have known, dog eat dog, an animal fight for survival. The internet age threatens people. Too much info instantly obtained with no bias. Overall, People want everyone to have the power and, at the same, no one to have the power but the power, not aware, doesn't care where it is.

by Anonymousreply 12206/11/2013

r122 i'm 21 and don't remember world without the internet. It's not about that. What the fuck? And I still don't want the bs expanded PATRIOT ACT THAT YOU GUYS WERE PROBABLY PISSED ABOUT WHEN BUSH FIRST PUT IN!

by Anonymousreply 12306/11/2013

118, YOU'RE full of shit. He obtained a government job giving him access to classified info, and, through obtaining that job, made obligations to our government and the entire US population not to disclose any classified info to the public. He disclosed info and alluded he had even MORE info to expose to THE WORLD through British press. He's no hero. Just a very, very young man who cannot stand by his word and has put himself out for the highest bidder.

by Anonymousreply 12406/11/2013

R24 Nazi slave

by Anonymousreply 12506/11/2013

r124you support the US keeping info like this from the American people?

You are probably one of the nuts who support the torture of Bradley Manning? Are you sure you're not a "conservative"?

by Anonymousreply 12606/11/2013

They are not listening (though they can) but they are recording and can go back and listen after you become a person of interest. They have vast storage capabilities. They can keep your communications for years and likely forever.

by Anonymousreply 12706/11/2013

r126 What info are they keeping from us? They have been doing this for years and it really hasn't been a secret.The government is looking for terrorists. They are not following us and listening to our phone conversations. Get a hold of yourself.

Can you imagine if the ACLU stops the government from doing this and then we have another tragic event in this country? Everyone will be asking why we weren't more vigilant.

by Anonymousreply 12806/11/2013

"What info are they keeping from us? "

They're prosecuting the poor guy so clearly there is.

And they're prosecuting Bradley Manning to cover up war crimes.

by Anonymousreply 12906/11/2013

"then we have another tragic event in this country? "

If you're referring to Boston, there's lots and lots more tragic events than that. That the US CARRIES out on innocent people in other countries.

That's ONE thing they're keeping from us.

by Anonymousreply 13006/11/2013

126, if you watched, the fact they are obtaining ranges of info from everyone was not kept from the American people. What Snowdon has so far revealed is not illegal. The moment I got my first computer and the moment I first logged onto the internet I knew the paradigm had changed for humanity. The question I have is why anyone would expect ANY government to NOT utilize the FULL range of technology. When it's available, it WILL be used. If humans figure out how to do something, it will be be done. After that, the struggle is who can use it most effectively for their goals. The human emotional element is the wild card.

And I don't support the torture of anyone for any circumstance.

by Anonymousreply 13106/11/2013

Shia told about calls being recorded two years ago--why didn't this cause a ruckus at the time?

by Anonymousreply 13206/11/2013

[quote]Can you imagine if the ACLU stops the government from doing this and then we have another tragic event in this country? Everyone will be asking why we weren't more vigilant.

It's not just the left that is opposed. So are the libertarians and many people in the middle.

Why is the risk of terrorism so much worse than the risk of mass murders that we will jeopardize our freedoms to prevent the first while we do absolutely nothing the prevent the second?

It's a primitive sense of pride. It's an acceptable loss if millions die from lack of healthcare or at the hands of a domestic killer. But when a foreign force attacks us at home we totally freak out.

To put it simply: The costs of an occasional terrorist attack are less than the costs of allowing the government to keep files of every communication we make.

by Anonymousreply 13306/11/2013

125, No, just not a tool to emotion

by Anonymousreply 13406/11/2013

This kind of Orwellian nightmare is exactly what I've been dreading for years. What's MORE terrifying is the people who readily give up their privacy with this tweeting nonsense, with everybody's nose is in everybody's business and the most private thoughts, acts, deeds, etc disseminated into the world at large for all to see. With this kind of ipso facto lunacy, it wouldn't take much for a fascistic, totalitarian power to take control and, as in 1984, press an oppressive boot in our faces forever.

by Anonymousreply 13506/11/2013

". What Snowdon has so far revealed is not illegal. "

Then why were you essentially saying in r118: Lock him up and throw away the key!

If he or Bradley Manning reveal info the people should know, they should be heralded not tortured. PERIOD.

No go make out with some pics of your great leader!

by Anonymousreply 13606/11/2013

BTW, do you know that there are computer chips in your microwave and dishwasher and the CIA has access to the info as to when you cook and wash dishes and can predict your behavior i.e. when you take your meals...

Why the fuck do they need to know this about us? they are collecting these useless info for what fucking purpose?

by Anonymousreply 13706/11/2013

I mean to put r124 not r118

by Anonymousreply 13806/11/2013

He's a "traitor" for admitting info that you don't think there's a problem with us knowing? huh??

by Anonymousreply 13906/11/2013

They are using this information to keep us safe. They don't care about the other shit. Unless you're being shady, there is no reason to care about this.

by Anonymousreply 14006/11/2013

It's only Obama! he can do whatever he wants. Now look away...

by Anonymousreply 14106/11/2013

r140 But why don't they keep us safe?

by Anonymousreply 14206/11/2013

R88--There is no problem with voluntarily making trivial communications public.

The problem is when next the government asks "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?" they have access to every electronic communication you ever made.

by Anonymousreply 14306/11/2013

R141, I had no problem when it was W and I have no problem with Obama or the next president doing what they need to do to keep this country safe. When people complained about the airport scans, I thought they were crazy. Get a grip.

by Anonymousreply 14406/11/2013

136, it's what he knows that he hasn't revealed yet. You assume it's info against the US public that's interesting to others but is likely info of logisitics of how things work behind scenes that are of high interest to those not friendly to the US. You assume all countries of the world are our friends but, sadly, some countries are not. Believe me, the info of US citizens means nothing to other countries but what and exactly how we do intelligence gathering is of most interest. Plus the whole "lose face" means there's increasingly morale issues in the US. In other words, as a country, we increasingly air our laundry in public.

by Anonymousreply 14506/11/2013

and how do you know they won't MISUSE the info they have collected? Hello IRS!??!!

by Anonymousreply 14606/11/2013

"To put it simply: The costs of an occasional terrorist attack are less than the costs of allowing the government to keep files of every communication we make."

Tell that to the families of the people who will die from the next occasional terrorist attack.

BTW you're allowing the government and most private companies to keep files on your communications. You're on the internet!

by Anonymousreply 14706/11/2013

"but is likely info of logisitics of how things work behind scenes that are of high interest to those not friendly to the US."

this is also an ASSUMPTION.

The same excuse used to justify the torture of Manning.

by Anonymousreply 14806/11/2013

Snowden doesn't like the US. Let him go to countries in the Middle East or China for asylum.

by Anonymousreply 14906/11/2013

" You assume all countries of the world are our friends but, sadly, some countries are not."

absolute fucking bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 15006/11/2013

146, please tell me how in this increasingly technological age how you can guarantee info will not be misused by someone somewhere? What do you propose we do?

by Anonymousreply 15106/11/2013

150, how old are you?

by Anonymousreply 15306/11/2013

Honestly, to look behind your shoulder for the rest of your life is a tough way to live, if i were him, i'd just overdose on pills and get it over with coz his life is basically over.

by Anonymousreply 15406/11/2013

r151 Not fucking spy on citizens??

Hold Obama up to the same standards you held Bush up to?

by Anonymousreply 15506/11/2013

"how you can guarantee info will not be misused by someone somewhere? "

I second this question, but to r145.

We must keep all info secret right r145? So our enemies can't catch wind of it!

by Anonymousreply 15606/11/2013

r153 red back a few ages, ancient piece of shit.

by Anonymousreply 15706/11/2013

I was saying 145s claims of what I believe are bullshit not that all countries are not our friends.

by Anonymousreply 15806/11/2013

[quote]Tell that to the families of the people who will die from the next occasional terrorist attack.

After you tell the families of the Santa Monica shootings why their losses are just part of the cost of freedom.

[quote]BTW you're allowing the government and most private companies to keep files on your communications. You're on the internet!

There is a difference between Google having information to place an ad for humidifiers on my browser when I'm shopping for humidifiers and the government having copies of every electronic communication I make. Google is trying to sell stuff. The government may be trying to take away my liberty.

by Anonymousreply 15906/11/2013

156, I know others are attempting to access info. Choose your side.

by Anonymousreply 16006/11/2013

I don't know about you guys about i value my privacy, it's about the only sacred thing left in this world. Kids these days have no clue what it means to be free and think all these kinds of info collection is the norm. bunch of fuckin idiots.

I don't download a ton of apps or whatever coz you give up all your personal info and they always say they won't share your info but of course that's not true. I don't skype or video chat etc. I don't bank or pay bills online.

I do the minimum...I ain't gonna give all this private info for FREE so they can get rich off me.

I am a law abiding citizen and the govt can collect what they want but they gotta have a reason for that. It's called the 4th amendment!!! Wake the fuck up and KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!!!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 16106/11/2013

r160 This, coming from the person who called ME naive and ignorant earlier.

No thanks. I don't support murder,torture, rape, or anything else. No matter what country is doing it, even ours!!

by Anonymousreply 16206/11/2013

Roger Baldwin was not a Communist. Neither was Crystal Eastman.

by Anonymousreply 16306/11/2013

Wow, again... the number of tinhatters on DL is scary. The NSA leaker is a troublemaker and those of you who are afraid of you own shadows need to seriously think about what's important.

by Anonymousreply 16506/11/2013

"tin hatters"= objective people that are not blinded by party lines.

by Anonymousreply 16606/11/2013

If Snowden went to the Middle East or China for sympathy he'd never be heard from again.

by Anonymousreply 16706/11/2013

There's nothing remotely tinhat about this. The government is collecting our communications. No one has disputed that. The rest is a political decision about whether you trust all future governments to gather and hold this much information about you.

I'm sure most defenders of the program would freak-out if the government's motive for gathering this information was tax enforcement. But say the magic word "terrorism" and people change from citizens to subjects.

Guess what? If we allow the information to be gathered there is nothing to stop some future government from deciding to get permission from Congress to review the communications of people they suspect are cheating on taxes. They'll say doing so would erase the budget deficit overnight. They say they will use the additional revenue solely for education and infrastructure.

Next time we fear infiltration by a foreign enemy we'll have another episode of the Red Scares of 1919-21 and 1947-57 when "National Security" will be the new War on Terror. Or perhaps some future government will decide that providing assistance to illegal aliens is such a problem that they might as well run a search to find out who is sympathetic to illegal aliens. Maybe it will be a new battle in the War Against Drugs.

You allow the government to build this power for one purpose and you'd have to be a fool to think they will ever give it up. They spent trillions of dollars on it and it's so damn useful.

by Anonymousreply 16806/11/2013

wow, R150, is really dumb, if his kind is the future of our country, then we are all doomed.

by Anonymousreply 16906/11/2013

who's gonna play Ed in the movie? you know there's gonna be a movie, about him and his subsequent life on the lamb?

They have already listened to your phone calls! Supposedly they listened to phone calls of americans abroad in 2008! my co-worker told me today, how true, i'm not sure...

how many plots have they foiled? how come they never caught the shoe bomber or the guy who tried to blow up times square? those were foiled by humans who acted bravely. They are collecting info on you, for no fucking reason other than to use it for their own twisted purposes. If you think they are keeping you safe, then you are a fool.

How can you ever believe anything uttered by a politician??? ridiculous.

by Anonymousreply 17006/11/2013

R168, I totally agree 100% well said!!!

by Anonymousreply 17106/11/2013

I think it would be quite reasonable for a government to use such information to combat tax cheats, r168.

by Anonymousreply 17206/11/2013

It's about nuclear shit, people.

Have you any idea how many Pakistanis came to the US and studied nuclear technology? And before them, there were Iranians. Now we have Chinese immigrants studying nuclear physics. Pakistan has nuclear warheads.

We don't even know if they have accounted for all the warheads in the central Asian parts of the former USSR (Kazakstan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, to name a few). That's the biggest fear. Did you watch "Holidays in the Danger Zone"? Did you see where Simon Reeve went into Kyrgystan and people had been digging up uranium? That's just one worry -- dirty bombs in cities. Worse are the missing warheads. Where are they? Who has them? Can they be transported?

Iran, Pakistan and all the other Stans are the most dangerous part of the world now, not the Middle East. Don't ask me why we've let all these people into the country to study how to make bombs. We had no problem keeping Russians and Eastern Europeans from coming to the US during the Cold war. Why do we need to take in people from Dagestan, Chechnya, Kyrgystan, etc? It's fucking dangerous. We also need to keep an eye and an ear on Indonesia, Singapore, the Philippines and other areas where there are Muslim radicals. So now the government has finally decided to track these people here in the US and listen to their conversations, read their texts and emails.

by Anonymousreply 17306/11/2013

today they will say it's for terrorism. tomorrow who knows?

NEVER TRUST THE GOVT. We learned that during katrina, we can't depend on them for anything. Don't even assume they can help you in any way. Be self sufficient, protect yourself, know your rights.

I don't trust anyone, except my long-term partner. I learned the hard way, i was fucked over by my own family over $$ disputes, inheritance etc. Young people today are so dumb, "checking-in" all these places for the world to know, why don't they just inject themselves with a chip for the govt to track?

by Anonymousreply 17406/11/2013

What do you propose in place of a government?

by Anonymousreply 17506/11/2013

[quote]how many plots have they foiled?

The only one they mentioned is the NYC subway plot, but they don't say it would have succeeded without Prism.

by Anonymousreply 17606/11/2013

r173 Sounds like a republican trying to justify the Iraqi war in 2007.

by Anonymousreply 17706/11/2013

R173, yes, then you gather their names and track them and collect info on them, NOT THE WHOLE FUCKING COUNTRY!!

by Anonymousreply 17806/11/2013

I think the more interesting story is the one about the corporations making bank off this sort of stuff. Do you think they'll give up on it so easily just because Americans are uoset about the invasion into their privacy?

by Anonymousreply 17906/11/2013

I don't care what data is collected about me. The issue that bothers me is who views it. Say some extremist government got in, I would likely be fucked as a gay, mentally ill, politically left person.

However, that this is suddenly an issue is somewhat ridiculous as it has most likely been going on for at least a couple of decades.

by Anonymousreply 18006/11/2013

Russia is now saying they will consider giving him asylum.

by Anonymousreply 18106/11/2013

We've known about it for a decade but nobody cared because they thought they were only spying on Arabs.

by Anonymousreply 18206/11/2013

R173 if you are a follower of history, you'll know that Reagan opened the universities to Libyan students to study nuclear technology, and then suddenly slammed them shut after it became public knowledge. Don't pretend the Republicans have ever been against nuclear proliferation. They want it, because it fits in with their lower global population aim.

by Anonymousreply 18306/11/2013

I wonder if anyone profited from this. Meaning if they've accessed various communications of companies that are about to report their quarterly earnings or are about to merge with another company etc. They could have tipped off their friends overseas and profited big time and park that money in some off shore account. It has probably happened...wise up folks. it's isn't just about "terrorism".

by Anonymousreply 18406/11/2013

The funny thing is, the administrators of datalounge, or any other website, could easily disclose our personal information and the tracks of our postings for any reason deemed reasonable to them. I have been alive long enough to remember party telephone lines and the Cold War. You can't tell me my personal life hasn't been tracked since World War 2. I can't believe people sign up for website memberships, give up their personal information and credit card numbers to someone they don't know, yet are all up in arms because the government invaded their privacy. I don't get it, and I'm OLD!

by Anonymousreply 18506/11/2013

[quote]The funny thing is, the administrators of datalounge, or any other website, could easily disclose our personal information and the tracks of our postings for any reason deemed reasonable to them.

And be sued.

by Anonymousreply 18606/11/2013

Exactly. r185. This is NOT news.

by Anonymousreply 18706/12/2013

[quote]Unless you're being shady, there is no reason to care about this.

Wow. The old "if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear" tactic coming from, presumably, a gay person.

It's really scary how much faith some gay people put in the government.

by Anonymousreply 18806/12/2013

I don't care either OP, I really don't. Datalounge is about the worst place I visit online. Apart from Amazon.

by Anonymousreply 18906/12/2013

CBS reported this morning that the NSA doesn't hold a candle to Google. That little Prism program that tracks phone number patterns ain't nothing. Google knows your whole life. At least the government is doing it to make you safe. Google is doing it so they can get you to spend more money.

Personally I don't care. But if you really value your privacy and your feel that your civil liberties are being encroached then get off the internet.

by Anonymousreply 19006/12/2013

R190 is correct.

Have an issue with your faux-privacy being faux-invaded? Get off the internet, dump your cell phone, get a job that pays you under the table. Put any property you have in your partner's name, close your bank accounts and stop watching cable.

Oh, also don't go anywhere a security camera might "see" you, meaning never leave the house.

by Anonymousreply 19106/12/2013

[quote]I'm a private person but not worried that my secrets will be laid out, nor worried that it's some tragic step on a "slippery slope".

Mother Russia is CALLING.

by Anonymousreply 19206/12/2013

[quote]Unless you're being shady, there is no reason to care about this.

Hello, Britain!

by Anonymousreply 19306/12/2013

History repeats itself.

by Anonymousreply 19406/12/2013

Whatever slippery slope you may be worried about, the NSA is the least of your problems. The internet and smartphones are what will have the biggest affect in our privacy issues in the future.

Right now Google can follow you on your smartphone. Technology has changed everything. Our government doesn't have the manpower or capabilities that corporate America has.

by Anonymousreply 19506/12/2013

true that.

by Anonymousreply 19606/12/2013

R196, how does google follow me on my smartphone? I don't use the internet on my phone and i have never given them my phone number. I don't give my phone number to facebook either.

by Anonymousreply 19706/12/2013

Your phone company already gave the number to them.

by Anonymousreply 19806/12/2013

[quote]At least the government is doing it to make you safe.

Oh, sweetheart. How touchingly naive of you. I sure hope you're pretty!

[quote]Google is doing it so they can get you to spend more money.

And you can choose to spend your money or not.

So many people on datalounge seem terrified of choice and liberty.

by Anonymousreply 19906/12/2013

It's not so naive. They have actually stopped attacks using PRISM. They are not listening to your phone calls, just tracking any patterns of people calling other people.If they are doing more than that, it isn't anything different from what they have been doing for the past 50 years. They don't have the money and manpower.

You don't have to spend money for them to track you. Google has so many programs and apps that you don't even realize what they have on you.It's not just Google either. Private firms have so many more resources and funds than the government to do this sort of thing.

by Anonymousreply 20006/12/2013

Those who would trade liberty for security deserve neither, OP.

by Anonymousreply 20106/12/2013

Every porn search you have ever done on google has been recorded. This is a fact.

by Anonymousreply 20206/12/2013

yes, but they have the ability to listen in to your phone calls and they already have! They listened to phone calls of americans abroad.

R200, what attacks have they stopped? Total BS. The point is, instead of listening in or collecting info on the bad guys, they are doing it to EVERYONE. That is NOT KOSHER!! They are storing the information in a fucking huge compound in Utah. They want info on every single american and what we do, who we fuck, what we eat, who we call etc.

This is not for terrorism, they haven't used it for terrorism, they had info on the boston brother who went overseas to train, but WHAT THE FUCK DID THEY DO WITH THAT INFO?? NOTHING!!!

by Anonymousreply 20306/12/2013

I think Friedman explains it best.

by Anonymousreply 20406/12/2013

So the government can do whatever they damn well please as long as they claim they are doing to help fight terrorism is that correct? What exactly constitutes terrorism is loosely defined and can be subjected to any government's interpretation. What if you typed on your facebook "I'm so fed up with this government I wish someone would blow them away" and the government deemed you a terrorist because of it? If you don't think that can happen then read the enclosed link.

Also to the people who said this is exactly what Republicans want, you're right though not in the way you mean. This kind of program is exactly the kind of thing Republicans support and liberals like us should be outraged that Obama not only supports it but has expanded it. Greenwald is a liberal himself. He's pro-Palestine for fuck's sakes, not to mention a proud homosexual. To say that this is something perpetrated by Republicans to make Obama look bad is borderline delusional. The reason this is getting so much heat is because Obama was supposed to be the anti-Bush. These policies go against everything he claimed to stand for prior to the election and yes he does have the power to limit them. Instead he took the Patriot Act and pumped it full of steroids, but it's ok if he's doing it because he has your best interest at heart. Give me a break. People like you who are complacent as long as the person in charge shares the same political affiliation as you are incredibly ignorant and naive. Your permissiveness will only allow these powers to grow.

by Anonymousreply 20506/12/2013

Why We Get the Police State We Deserve—and What We Can Do to Fix That by Nick Gillespie Jun 11, 2013 12:46 PM EDT Just look at the polls: everyone loves Big Brother when he’s got the right party affiliation. Nick Gillespie on how rank partisanship has trumped principles—and how to change that.

In the first flush of stories about how the National Security Agency is surveilling American citizens, one stomach-turning revelation hasn’t gotten the attention it deserves: we get the surveillance state we deserve because rank political partisanship trumps bedrock principle every goddamn time on just about every goddamn issue.

The journalist Glenn Greenwald, who jump-started this overdue conversation on civil liberties and the war on terrorism, has promised that the revelations are just getting started. But nothing that comes out can be more dispiriting than the simple truth that Democrats and Republicans are both happy to love Big Brother as long as he’s got the right party affiliation.

In late 2005, The New York Times and others exposed broad-based, constitutionally dubious NSA surveillance programs of American citizens. If memory serves, there was a Republican in the White House, and the GOP held both houses of Congress too.

In January 2006, Pew Research asked whether it was OK to collect info on “people suspected of involvement with terrorism by secretly listening in on telephone calls and reading emails between some people in the United States and other countries, without first getting court approval to do so.” A slim majority of all respondents—51 percent—said yes while 47 percent said no.

The partisan breakdown, however, was vastly different, with 75 percent of Republicans finding it acceptable and just 23 percent dissenting. When it came the Democrats, only 37 percent of Democrats signed off on NSA snooping, with a whopping 61 percent saying screw off.

It’s totally different, don’t you see, when my guy is running the show!

Don't be surprised by a police state: 'Enemy of the State' predicted everything.

Fast-forward to June 2013, when a Democrat occupies the Oval Office after an easy reelection and his party controls the Senate. Pew asked respondents whether it’s OK that the NSA “has been getting secret court orders to track telephone calls of millions of Americans in an effort to investigate terrorism.” This time around, it’s Democrats who overwhelmingly support collecting collecting yottabytes and exabytes of metadata on us all, with 64 percent saying they are totally fine with NSA surveillance programs and a measly 34 percent disagreeing. Among Republicans, enthusiasm for eye-in-the-sky surveillance has taken a major hit, with only 52 percent agreeing and 47 percent saying no.

(Don’t let the constitutional fig leaf about “secret court orders” in the newer version of Pew’s question fool you. To the extent that anyone knows anything about the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court, they know it’s a freaky hybrid of a kangaroo and a rubber stamp that even Dr. Moreau couldn’t have conceived at his most demented. In roughly 34,000 requests spanning 33 years, FISA courts have turned down applicants for surveillance orders a total of 11 times.)

The same predictable, partisan-fueled march of the lemmings shows up in questions about monitoring email. In 2002, when wisps of smoke still rose silently from the World Trade Center’s wreckage like lost souls in search of some beggared form of heaven and Attorney General John Ashcroft still attacked anyone who “would scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty,” Pew asked, “Should the government be able to monitor everyone’s email and other online activities if officials say this might prevent future terrorist attacks?” To our credit as the Land of the Free, more Americans said no (47 percent) than yes (45 percent). In the latest tally, the nos have increased by 5 points, to 52

by Anonymousreply 20606/12/2013

I just wonder if six months of phone calls from seven or eight cellphones in Venice, FL to Afghanistan, Syria or Lebanon would have been tracked, we might have avoided 9-11.

by Anonymousreply 20706/12/2013

Should I care?

by Anonymousreply 20806/13/2013

R204, good link. Friedman also links to a great blog post by David Simon, creator of The Wire, on what a load of hot air this current hysteria is. This will traumatise, the Guardian, if anyone there reads it, because at the Guardian they try to prove their hip, liberal credentials by going on about how much they love The Wire.

We are shocked, shocked… 07 JUN Is it just me or does the entire news media — as well as all the agitators and self-righteous bloviators on both sides of the aisle — not understand even the rudiments of electronic intercepts and the manner in which law enforcement actually uses such intercepts? It would seem so.

Because the national eruption over the rather inevitable and understandable collection of all raw data involving telephonic and internet traffic by Americans would suggest that much of our political commentariat, many of our news gatherers and a lot of average folk are entirely without a clue.

You would think that the government was listening in to the secrets of 200 million Americans from the reaction and the hyperbole being tossed about. And you would think that rather than a legal court order which is an inevitable consequence of legislation that we drafted and passed, something illegal had been discovered to the government’s shame.

Nope. Nothing of the kind. Though apparently, the U.K.’s Guardian, which broke this faux-scandal, is unrelenting in its desire to scale the heights of self-congratulatory hyperbole. Consider this from Glenn Greenwald, the author of the piece: “What this court order does that makes it so striking is that it’s not directed at any individual…it’s collecting the phone records of every single customer of Verizon business and finding out every single call they’ve made…it’s indiscriminate and it’s sweeping.”

Having labored as a police reporter in the days before the Patriot Act, I can assure all there has always been a stage before the wiretap, a preliminary process involving the capture, retention and analysis of raw data. It has been so for decades now in this country. The only thing new here, from a legal standpoint, is the scale on which the FBI and NSA are apparently attempting to cull anti-terrorism leads from that data. But the legal and moral principles? Same old stuff.

{Continued at link.)

by Anonymousreply 20906/13/2013

[quote]So the government can do whatever they damn well please as long as they claim they are doing to help fight terrorism is that correct?

According to the loony queens on datalounge, yes, as long as the President is a Democrat, the government can do anything it wants because, naturally, the government has only our best interests at heart.

Of course, when the regime switches from D to R and the human rights violations continue, datalounge will switch over to panic mode and will call for impeachment and revolution.

by Anonymousreply 21006/13/2013

op is a fucking moron. Straight Southern asshole?

by Anonymousreply 21106/13/2013

No, 207. The FBI and CIA already had plenty of information by August 2001 that an attack was imminent. But they weren't cooperating and they weren't even listening to their own front line people who had gathered credible intelligence here in the US of these activities. The incompetence of these agencies is legion, so why should they need more information about US citizens?

by Anonymousreply 21206/13/2013

If you are posting a link to anything with "times" or "post" in the name, it's propaganda. FYI.

by Anonymousreply 21306/13/2013

r211 You must be s straight southern asshole because you support Bush's policies. This is an expanded version of Bush's Patriot act.

by Anonymousreply 21406/13/2013

". They have actually stopped attacks using PRISM. "

According to what? MSNBC and the white house press agent?

by Anonymousreply 21506/13/2013

It's not about you.

Or me.

It's about what someone with that kind of power can do to his personal enemies, and how bad that is for a democracy.

Also, it's in clear violation of the Constitution, the supreme law of the land.

Yes, you should care. Because it's not about you but about us.

by Anonymousreply 21606/13/2013

Thank the Cheney/Bush 8 year debacle.

by Anonymousreply 21706/13/2013

The thinking of some DL'ers here that they have any privacy left at all is absolutely quaint. Whether it's good or evil is beside the point: the privacy train has left the station and it ain't never coming back.

by Anonymousreply 21806/13/2013

You're right R221. That's why I can't understand the mass hysteria here. For Christ sakes your phones have GPSes and unless you keep changing it, you have an IP address which is read around the world by way more people than the government.

If you want to say that Obama is no better than Bush-maybe. Obama never allowed warrentless wire taps on phones and the Prism program is fully legal. We may not know if it helps catch terrorist activity but it makes sense that it would help. No one is listening to your calls and no person is actually following you. But if you have something to hide I would suggest you get off the computer and get an old flip phone.

by Anonymousreply 21906/13/2013

Be scared or offended all you want. This information exists, is being kept, and won't go away barring a catastrophic event that wipes out computer storage on a global scale.

The government has had the technical ability to do this on a grand scale for a long time. The 4th and 5th Amendment aren't going anywhere, but the PATRIOT ACT is a scary thing that should have been allowed to sunset.

Fictional characters manage to stay off the grid, but that really isn't possible anymore. It is the cost of the culture we have created.

by Anonymousreply 22006/13/2013

Most thinking people know the Constitution has always been a cosmetic sham but what alarms many is not the actual surveillance but rather absolute INCOMPETENCE of the people overseeing the entire mess and the mistrust that the information collected is actually being used for what "they" say it will be used for.

by Anonymousreply 22106/13/2013

What R222 said.

by Anonymousreply 22206/13/2013

Everybody who thinks it is no big deal, or if you haven't done anything, no sweat, think about this.

Take the most repressive system you can imagine, say the Soviet Union under Stalin. The great majority of people never got thrown in the gulag or got shot. The government didn't have to go that far as long as they got the result they wanted: Average people stopped confronting authority.

Do we want a society in which you hesitate to say about your alderman, "He's a fat toad, and he is on the take"? For the first offense, your garbage doesn't get picked up. For the second, you get on a list so that you don't get promoted and your child doesn't get into the college he wanted.

The kicker is that you will never know if those calls were what did it. So you stop talking the way you would like.

Ugly times.

by Anonymousreply 22306/13/2013

Oh Mary!

by Anonymousreply 22406/13/2013

"Any individual who is not concerned about his freedom commits an act of moral and spiritual suicide."

by Anonymousreply 22506/13/2013

Exactly R226 or you somehow get put on the NoFly list and are unable to get yourself removed - and don't think that doesn't happen already.

by Anonymousreply 22606/13/2013

So was Orwell correct? Is Big Brother inevitable in a world where all data on everyone is available to the rulers?

by Anonymousreply 22706/13/2013

ALDERMAN??

why are brits posting on this thread?

by Anonymousreply 22806/13/2013

R228 one has to be concerned about their freedom and safety these days. It's a balance that many of us just don't agree on here.

by Anonymousreply 22906/13/2013

Gen. Michael Hayden, NSA director under former president George W. Bush, defended the legality of the agency's massive phone and internet data surveillance programs on Wednesday, calling them important and suggesting that opponents didn't understand what was actually going on.

Speaking with CNN's Jake Tapper, Hayden downplayed criticism of the data collection effort as governmental overreach by claiming President Barack Obama's administration had actually been more forthcoming than Bush's on the issue.

"Frankly, the Obama administration was more transparent about this effort than we were in the Bush administration," he said. "I mean, they made this metadata collection activity available to all the members of Congress. Not just all the members of the intelligence committees."

Some lawmakers have admitted that they were aware of the NSA's activities before the string of reports last week, which has led many to defend the programs as vital and standard procedures. Others have spoken out against them in the wake of the recent disclosures, arguing that the reports held details that they hadn't been told about and wouldn't have supported.

Despite the supposed decision to loop in more lawmakers on the process, Hayden said that Obama's decision not to stop, and even expand, the NSA efforts was "really good news" and something of a redemption for national security officials in the Bush administration.

"We should just take a sense of satisfaction that what we were doing, once candidate Obama became President Obama, he saw that these were of great value and frankly, were being very carefully done," Hayden said. "National security looks a little different from the Oval Office than it does from a hotel room in Iowa."

Over the weekend, Hayden gave an interview with NPR attempting to explain how NSA surveillance was being used to fight terrorism. Hayden similarly told CNN on Wednesday that NSA surveillance of phone records had turned up a "series of terrorist reports" under his tenure.

Hayden did appear to have one concern -- about Edward Snowden, the source of the information about the NSA programs. Hayden suggested that a true whistleblower must raise their hand "inside the institution” and take the problem up the chain of command. A number of lawmakers have taken their criticism of Snowden further, calling for him to be prosecuted for releasing intelligence secrets.

by Anonymousreply 23006/13/2013

[quote]Gen. Michael Hayden, NSA director under former president George W. Bush, defended the legality of the agency's massive phone and internet data surveillance programs on Wednesday, calling them important and suggesting that opponents didn't understand what was actually going on.

Well, I feel so much better now.

by Anonymousreply 23106/13/2013

R231:

Alderman is a common term for members of a city governing board, in Chicago for example.

by Anonymousreply 23206/13/2013

Barack Obama:

"What you have is two programs that were originally authorized by Congress, have been repeatedly authorized... Congress is continuously briefed, there are whole layers of safeguards involved. We've also set up an audit process... after the fact, making absolutely certain that all the safeguards are being properly observed."

-- In other words, a bunch of secret people are secretly looking at the secret thing to make sure the secret thing is OK, so we don't need to worry about it. We just need to trust in the secret process and the secret best intentions of the secret people running that secret process. Transparency does not mean telling us you're being totally transparent over there where we can't see you.

by Anonymousreply 23306/13/2013

(CNN) -- Technology giants Facebook and Microsoft disclosed that they received thousands of requests for user data from government agencies in the United States in the last half of 2012. Facebook said it got between 9,000 and 10,000 requests targeting between 18,000 and 19,000 accounts during that period.

by Anonymousreply 23406/15/2013

R19 the mean lesbian you're writing about is Hilary Clinton!

by Anonymousreply 23506/18/2013

Under authorization of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, Snowden continued, "Americans’ communications are collected and viewed on a daily basis on the certification of an analyst rather than a warrant. They excuse this as 'incidental' collection, but at the end of the day, someone at NSA still has the content of your communications":

All of it. IPs, raw data, content, headers, attachments, everything. And it gets saved for a very long time—and can be extended further with waivers rather than warrants.

by Anonymousreply 23606/18/2013

R222 that's not true they can listen to your phone calls, read your emails, posts, etc.

by Anonymousreply 23706/18/2013

OP-

When they send you off to the gas chamber, please remember posting this.

by Anonymousreply 23806/22/2013

R240

With his revelations exposing the extent of potential, and actual, pervasive NSA surveillance over the American population, Edward Snowden has done a great service for the public by finally forcing it to answer the question: is having Big Brother peek at every private communication and electronic information, a fair exchange for the alleged benefit of the state's security. Alas, without further action form a population that appears largely numb and apathetic to disclosures that until recently would have sparked mass protests and toppled presidents, the best we can hope for within a political regime that has hijacked the democratic process, is some intense introspection as to what the concept of "America" truly means.

However, and more importantly, what Snowden's revelations have confirmed, is that behind the scenes, America is now actively engaged in a new kind of war: an unprecedented cyber war, where collecting, deciphering, intercepting, and abusing information is the only thing that matters and leads to unprecedented power, and where enemies both foreign and domestic may be targeted without due process based on a lowly analyst's "whim."

It has also put spotlight on the man, who until recently deep in the shadows, has been responsible for building America's secret, absolutely massive cyber army, and which according to a just released Wired profile is "capable of launching devastating cyberattacks. Now it's ready to unleash hell."

Meet General Keith Alexander, "a man few even in Washington would likely recognize", which is troubling because Alexander is now quite possibly the most powerful person in the world, that nobody talks about. Which is just the way he likes it.

by Anonymousreply 23906/22/2013

R243-

PDIAF

I wish DL required the $18/yr registration to keep people like you out.

My POV is different from most of the posters- I've spent a lot of time educating myself about economic theory AND used that knowledge to make some money that allows me to travel in style- and I've been "troll-dar"ed and locked out for trying to explain why the government is evil.

That said, I hope that the Webcuntress bans you, R243, forever.

by Anonymousreply 24106/24/2013

[quote]My POV is different from most of the posters

That's putting it mildly. Your POV is different from most of reality.

[quote]I've spent a lot of time educating myself about economic theory

Then why have you been so badly wrong so many times? I'd suggest a remedial course, since all of that "education" has clearly gone to waste.

[quote]AND used that knowledge to make some money

Oh, you mean getting lucky by buying gold as it was heading into a bubble, all the while denying that it was in a bubble and then watching your portfolio decline by 25% as the bubble slowly pops?

[quote]I've been "troll-dar"ed and locked out for trying to explain why the government is evil.

No, dear, you've had your threads locked and deleted because you persist in spamming them. This isn't rocket science, dear. It is your behavior that gets your threads taken away, not their content. And what's hilarious is that in all of your years here you have never once recognized this. There are no limits to your blindness.

by Anonymousreply 24206/24/2013

Reminds me of my husbear's grandfather who used to answer the phone, "Fuck Hoover".

by Anonymousreply 24306/24/2013

R245-

Changing IP addresses so you don't show on troll-dar doesn't work as long as you keep using the same tired, Joan Crawford inspired insipid cuntiness when posting.

We get it. You work for the government. You hate anyone who disagrees with your shallow thoughts. You love sucking government dick.

If you're going to post, please get some new material, not tired and lifeless tropes that were tired before Obama was even born.

At least Scott Pelley and Brian Williams are attractive while they spew their propaganda. I picture you as more a latter-day Bette Davis...post stroke and botched plastic surgery.

by Anonymousreply 24406/24/2013

[quote]Changing IP addresses so you don't show on troll-dar doesn't work

Then it's a good thing I've never done that, isn't it, dear? I've already explained this to you, dear. And I always stand by my posts. Of the two of us, only one of us has been caught with a sock puppet. Free clue: it wasn't me.

[quote]We get it.

Sadly, no you don't. And you never will.

[quote]You work for the government.

Good to see that your accuracy rate is just as high as ever, dear, since I don't work for the government.

[quote]You hate anyone who disagrees with your shallow thoughts.

No, dear, I don't, although given your frequent (and pathetic) attacks, you certainly seem to. Those who disagree with me in a thoughtful, well-informed way, I take seriously and debate seriously. Those who post ignorant drivel, all the while boasting of their extensive knowledge and acumen, I mock. Can you guess which definition you fit into, dear?

[quote]You love sucking government dick.

So you continue to claim, dear, and yet you have never once been able to find a single post of mine where I do that. Why is that, dear?

[quote]If you're going to post, please get some new material, not tired and lifeless tropes that were tired before Obama was even born.

ROFLMAO.... Oh, the irony.... Pot, kettle, black, dear.

[quote]At least Scott Pelley and Brian Williams are attractive while they spew their propaganda. I picture you as more a latter-day Bette Davis...post stroke and botched plastic surgery.

Dear heart, has it really escaped your notice that kindergarten insults aren't really very effective once you get past a certain age? If you're going to attack me, can't you at least do it creatively? This was rather lame.

Tell us again how gold is going to climb to $20,000 an ounce, dear. Remind us all just how all of that time you spent "educating yourself about economic theory" did wonders for your financial acumen. We can always use a good laugh.

by Anonymousreply 24506/24/2013

I'm so glad people are ignoring you, R248, and beginning to see that the government is becoming more evil and dangerous each day, despite your tantrums.

by Anonymousreply 24606/24/2013

Right now might not matter. To you. But it's where this could be headed if we don't act decisively, now, as Americans that is the real concern. '

by Anonymousreply 24706/24/2013

[quote]I'm so glad people are ignoring you, [R248]

ROFL.... Yeah, and they're just paying so much attention to you.... Uh-huh, right.

And, of course, it hasn't escaped anyone's notice that you got caught deliberately lying and are wholly unable to respond to anything I wrote other than to engage in further childish attacks.

[quote]and beginning to see that the government is becoming more evil and dangerous each day, despite your tantrums.

LOL... Dear heart, of the two of us, only one is engaging in "tantrums." Free clue: it's not me.

by Anonymousreply 24806/24/2013

now you know why there is an eyeball on the dollar bill there watching and listening because they think they are god and are superior to everyone. but guess what? theyre human just like the rest of us and no matter how hard they try we'll all be dead and gone 100 years from now! ha ha ha cant take it with ya

by Anonymousreply 24909/02/2013
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