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Soldier beheaded in machete attack at London barracks

Described as a "frenzied" attack. Two assailants shot by police and taken into custody. It's being treated as a terrorist act.

by Anonymousreply 43212/01/2014

Here's the BBC live blog.

by Anonymousreply 105/22/2013

Terrorist attack. They are from Africa, both black with African accent. Mali???

by Anonymousreply 205/22/2013

[quote]"These two guys were crazed. They were just animals. They dragged him from the pavement and dumped his body in the middle of the road and left his body there," he told LBC radio.

[quote]This eyewitness wishes to remain anonymous "I was walking my dog and heard some shouting about 50 yards from me. A man was running down the road and being chased by a car. The car then screeched to a halt and two men got out one had some kind of sword. They literally swung at the other guy's head. The armed police turned up and there were some shots. We were told to go home and now they won't let us out. We're in lockdown. There actually now seems more activity than there was before. I can hear helicopters and there are police officers with guns."

[quote]"Two people were lying over him and I thought they were trying to resuscitate him," he said. But Mr Wilders said he drove on to park his car, and when he returned another witness told him the two men were stabbing the man on the ground.

[quote]Senior Whitehall sources have told the BBC that the Woolwich attackers are thought to have tried to film their attack whilst shouting "Allahu Akbar" - God is Great, says political editor Nick Robinson.

by Anonymousreply 305/22/2013

ITV supposedly broadcast this, but the link to their website no longer works

Video filmed by an onlooker and broadcast by ITV News shows a man with his hands covered in blood and holding a bloodied knife and machete. He says in a London accent: “I apologise that women had to witness that, but in our lands our women have to see the same thing. “You people will never be safe. Remove your Government, they don’t care about you.” He then walks off, still carrying his weapons, back towards the body of the victim who is lying in the middle of the road.

by Anonymousreply 505/22/2013

The BBC just showed part of that video. He apologized to women about the scene, and viewers could see his still bloody hand.

by Anonymousreply 605/22/2013

Video:

by Anonymousreply 1305/22/2013

The guy who filmed it was also black, it seems.

by Anonymousreply 1405/22/2013

r13, that link didn't work for me. There's another tape at Gawker. Warning - it's grisly.

by Anonymousreply 1605/22/2013

I'm glad I didn't answer that Craigslist ad about wanting some hot head.

by Anonymousreply 1705/22/2013

I hate that they're calling this "terrorism". It's a very opportunistic murder with political justification. See a soldier...run him down and cut his head off.

by Anonymousreply 1805/22/2013

"I thought they were trying to resuscitate him"

Never assume anything. I'm not saying run over and pull them off, but be a good Samaritan and find out what's going on.

by Anonymousreply 1905/22/2013

These things happen.

by Anonymousreply 2005/22/2013

There were police around, but they stayed away and waited for the armed police.

[quote]I was more concerned about the kids because he had a handgun and he'd pull it out. As soon as he pulled that out I panicked, you know what I mean.

[quote]The police were down at the bottom of the road where I live. They were round the corner and they said they actually couldn't do anything until Trojan [a reference to the armed police] turned up.

by Anonymousreply 2105/22/2013

This is the second assailant and a passerby talking to him. From the Guardian live blog.

by Anonymousreply 2205/22/2013

The police were a bit pathetic:

One witness, who called himself James, told LBC radio: "There was only a few people at first but then traffic started to build up with people getting out their cars shouting at them to stop but they were taking no notice.

"I think they were proud of what they were doing. They had the opportunity to hurt other people if they wanted to. There were brave women with the body on the floor, they were trying to shield him and covering him.

"The attackers with the knives, they were standing over these women. There were people filming it on their phones. [italic]There were police at the end of the road but there were no police in the vicinity of the attackers."[/italic]

Several witnesses described how the attackers threatened them with guns before the arrival of the police.

James said: "I jumped out the car and shouted. One of the guys went into the crashed car, pulled out a bag, and pointed a gun at us. He shouted get in the car, get in the car. I got on the phone to police."

by Anonymousreply 2305/22/2013

Savages.

by Anonymousreply 2905/22/2013

If only the police had machetes

by Anonymousreply 3005/22/2013

Europe should never have given up the Guest Worker program.

by Anonymousreply 3105/22/2013

That woman is either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid in r22's link. I can't imagine standing that close and talking to someone holding a bloody knife who'd just decapitated someone.

by Anonymousreply 3205/22/2013

Brandishing a cleaver and a knife, and with the body of the victim lying yards away, the man said: "We swear by almighty Allah we will never stop fighting you. The only reason we have done this is because Muslims are dying every day. This British soldier is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth."

by Anonymousreply 3305/22/2013

Agree R32. Everyone seems very calm in the above videos. WTF.

by Anonymousreply 4005/22/2013

I agree R39.

I'd love to see how you guys defending them would fare against a gay hating Muslim with a machete. He'd be quite happy to chop off your dick, or behead you.

by Anonymousreply 4205/22/2013

This is insane and those cops are total cowards and should have their badges stripped.

by Anonymousreply 4305/22/2013

Islam is poison.

by Anonymousreply 4505/22/2013

He said "You people will never be safe."

Isn't that enough?? They need to GO!

by Anonymousreply 4605/22/2013

[quote] [R24] They are British Muslims. They are home you great eejit.

"I apologise that women had to witness that, but in our lands our women have to see the same thing"

"In our lands"? Doesn't sound like [italic] he [/italic] considers the UK home.

by Anonymousreply 4805/22/2013

So what do you have to say about people who talk about other countries as "our lands," R49? And did you know that the UK does indeed deport mams who preach radical Islam?

And the people deported to Botany Bay weren't immigrants or the children of immigrants who asked for asylum and then sought to restrict the freedom of people in their new "homeland."

by Anonymousreply 5005/22/2013

Is the death penalty still used in the UK?

These men should be executed.

by Anonymousreply 5105/22/2013

City on fire! City on fire!

by Anonymousreply 5205/22/2013

[quote]We need to deal with our own.

Perhaps it would be easier for a nation to do that if it weren't importing some of the worst people on Earth and having to deal with them too.

by Anonymousreply 5305/22/2013

R32 - It sounds like she didn't know exactly what she was walking into. She just thought it was a Cub Scout leader's duty to render aid at an accident until she saw the guy had weapons.

A mother-of-two described tonight how she put her own life on the line by trying to persuade the soldier’s murderers to hand over their weapons.

Cub scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett selflessly engaged the terrorists in conversation and kept her nerve as one of them told her: “We want to start a war in London tonight.”

Mrs Loyau-Kennett, 48, from Cornwall, was one of the first people on the scene after the two Islamic extremists butchered a soldier in Woolwich, south east London.

She was photographed by onlookers confronting one of the attackers who was holding a bloodied knife.

Mrs Loyau-Kennett was a passenger on a number 53 bus which was travelling past the scene, and jumped off to check the soldier’s pulse.

“Being a cub leader I have my first aid so when I saw this guy on the floor I thought it was an accident then I saw the guy was dead and I could not feel any pulse.

“And then when I went up there was this black guy with a revolver and a kitchen knife, he had what looked like butcher’s tools and he had a little axe, to cut the bones, and two large knives and he said 'move off the body’.

“So I thought 'OK, I don’t know what is going on here’ and he was covered with blood. I thought I had better start talking to him before he starts attacking somebody else. I thought these people usually have a message so I said 'what do you want?’

“I asked him if he did it and he said yes and I said why? And he said because he has killed Muslim people in Muslim countries, he said he was a British soldier and I said really and he said 'I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.” Moments earlier, the killers had hacked at the soldier “like a piece of meat”, and when Mrs Loyau-Kennett arrived on the scene they were roaming John Wilson Street waiting for police to arrive so they could stage a final confrontation with them.

She said: “I started to talk to him and I started to notice more weapons and the guy behind him with more weapons as well. By then, people had started to gather around. So I thought OK, I should keep him talking to me before he noticed everything around him.

“He was not high, he was not on drugs, he was not an alcoholic or drunk, he was just distressed, upset. He was in full control of his decisions and ready to everything he wanted to do.

I said 'right now it is only you versus many people, you are going to lose, what would you like to do?’ and he said I would like to stay and fight.”

The suspect in the black hat then went to speak to someone else and Mrs Loyau-Kennett tried to engage with the other man in the light coat. She said: “The other one was much shier and I went to him and I said 'well, what about you? Would you like to give me what you have in your hands?’ I did not want to say weapons but I thought it was better having them aimed on one person like me rather than everybody there, children were starting to leave school as well.

Mrs Loyau-Kennett was not the only woman to show extraordinary courage. Others shielded the soldier’s body as the killers stood over them. MPs praised the “extraordinary bravery” of the women and raised concerns about why it took armed police 20 minutes to arrive at the scene while people’s lives were at risk.

According to a security source the delay in the armed police response is “particularly surprising” because there is a heavily armed police presence at Woolwich Crown Court, which is just two and a half miles away.

Keith Vaz, the Labour chairman of the Home Affairs select committee, said: “We are all grateful for the local people who responded so quickly. “I do want to pay tribute to them [members of the public] – I think what they have done is extraordinarily brave and courageous.

by Anonymousreply 5505/22/2013

[quote] According to a security source the delay in the armed police response is “particularly surprising” because there is a heavily armed police presence at Woolwich Crown Court, which is just two and a half miles away.

I used to work across the street from the NY Public Library in midtown Manhattan and from 3 pm to 7pm it took forever to get police because of the traffic. We had to call 911 a few times for medical emergencies.

Maybe they have a similar traffic situation?

by Anonymousreply 5905/22/2013

R56, that's a strawman argument. The muslim girls I went to middle school with in Norway were pressured by their parents to become doctors, or other respected and good professions, though mainly doctors. And those girls were a lot less religious than their parents.

But then again, I grew up in a good, rich commune that integrated immigrants well, were there were good free schools and plenty jobs. You see, immigrants need a good education to learn the language properly and thus adapt to the culture. That's one reason why America is so fucked up, the educational system is fucking shitty. And some schools teach creationism, for fuck's sake. America doesn't understand the importance of good education, but Norway sees it as a human right.

by Anonymousreply 6205/22/2013

"They are from Africa, both black with African accent. Mali???"

Try again moron at r2. South London accent, for example.

And, r34, the truth is we don't have to live with this every day. This is a very unusual and horrific event.

The foamers at the mouth don't sound much different from the lunatic with the machete when "explaining" his actions, or that idiot who killed himself in Notra Dame in an effort to start a revolution against the Muslims.

R51, no, thankfully we don't have the death penalty.

Hey. waddya know, the son of the woman who convered with the murderers has a surname that sounds a bit Muslim, Afghani/Iranian even. And they seem to be an immigrant family too. Bit of a shame his twitter pic is wielding a firearm.

by Anonymousreply 6305/22/2013

Bloody Hell!I say!Who'd want toattack a country as standoffish and uninvolved as London.What, did they try the kidney pie?

by Anonymousreply 6405/22/2013

How many of them allow women into mosques, R57?

How many of them would NOT prefer Sharia law?

How many of them allow women to live away from home, dress without covering, choose their own husband and have premarital sex without punishment? My blond-haired, blue-eyed Bosnian building super in his 20s required his wife wear dresses below her knee, wear her hair up and wear a scarf over it. It's not just middle easterners who restrict women.

I've been to central Asia and was told how to dress and speak as was my friend who had gone to Africa and Indonesia to do medical relief work. She had a machine gun pointed at her in Banda Aceh, I was surrounded by men in Bukhara who didn't like how I was dressed.

You do know that women are human beings who deserve equal rights, don't you R57?

by Anonymousreply 6505/22/2013

[quote]Hey. waddya know, the son of the woman who convered with the murderers

Que?

by Anonymousreply 6605/22/2013

[quote]"I killed him because he killed Muslims and I am fed up with people killing Muslims in Afghanistan they have nothing to do there.”

He's not wrong with the logic, although the solution is a poor one.

by Anonymousreply 6705/22/2013

[quote] You see, immigrants need a good education to learn the language properly and thus adapt to the culture. That's one reason why America is so fucked up, the educational system is fucking shitty

I guarantee you that every Muslim immigrant to the US learns English properly in our school system.

by Anonymousreply 6805/22/2013

The killers were not insane. The woman who talked to them said they weren't.

by Anonymousreply 6905/22/2013

Bandaran sounds Egyptian

by Anonymousreply 7005/22/2013

Baradaran

by Anonymousreply 7105/22/2013

When a gruop march the streets with signs like "democracy and freedom on death row", "Islam will dominate the world" and keep yelling Jihad, you'd think people will realize they might not be friendly.

At this point, immigration is not the problem, Islamism is.

by Anonymousreply 7205/22/2013

[quote] The muslim girls I went to middle school with in Norway were pressured by their parents to become doctors, or other respected and good professions, though mainly doctors. And those girls were a lot less religious than their parents.

Are they married to non-Muslims? Did they choose their own husbands? Were they free to spend the night with and move in with a man before marrying him?

by Anonymousreply 7305/22/2013

R68, I didn't mean just the language, I meant the quality of the education in general, the amount of help given to those who struggle in school, and the access to it. Not to mention the insane costs, and the debt American college students have. I really wonder how that will turn out. Does nobody get that good education is the key to making successful adults (especially out of kids of immigrants, who need that to transition well), as opposed to the rioting youths in Sweden who's schools were broken and crappy?

by Anonymousreply 7505/22/2013

[quote]My blond-haired, blue-eyed Bosnian building super in his 20s required his wife wear dresses below her knee, wear her hair up and wear a scarf over it. It's not just middle easterners who restrict women.

I taught ESL in Chicago at the height of the Bosnian conflict and when the U.S. began to accept refugees from Bosnia (and Croatia). Without fail, the men and the women were secular and westernized in every way. However, some of my students reported that back home some people were beginning to take up Muslim practices (not drinking alcohol (!), attending Friday services, women covering up). I recall reading about it, too. Very often when a minority is subjugated or persecuted they begin to cling to remnants of ethnicity as a way of maintaining identity under conflict. An unfortunate by-product of Serbian Orthodox Christian ethnic cleansing of Bosnians.

by Anonymousreply 7605/22/2013

R73, they are completely free to choose their own husbands and live their own lives. One of those girls wore a hijab when she was a teen because she thought her curly hair was ugly. Now she doesn't. Out of her own free will. Most immigrant muslims are not radical at all, especially not the kids who have grown up in the public educational system and become properly integrated.

by Anonymousreply 7705/22/2013

Islam...the religion of Peace? BULLSHIT

by Anonymousreply 7805/22/2013

The finest police force in the world!!!!

by Anonymousreply 7905/22/2013

[quote] of the education in general, the amount of help given to those who struggle in school, and the access to it.

There are no worries at all about Muslim immigrants in US schools getting along. They don't need special help.

And -- what about those liberated female Muslims in Norway? Married to non-Muslims? Choose their own husbands? Allowed to cohabitate before marriage?

I am not saying anything hateful. You are the one using obscenities at me, and insinuating US schools can't teach Muslim immigrants when there is no evidence of this at all. You are the one comparing people chatting on a message board to people who have just hacked a man to death on the street. You are the one who sounds hate-filled and frenzied.

by Anonymousreply 8105/22/2013

Insanity, it's like the movie highlander in the streets of London.

by Anonymousreply 8205/22/2013

And there are plenty of Muslims like those R77 describes here in the U.S., too, should anyone think otherwise.

by Anonymousreply 8305/22/2013

R81, I already responded about the female muslims in R77. Proper integration and economic and job opportunity in life diminishes radicalization. Poor crime ridden places will increase radicalization. Norway is one of the most peaceful countries because it's rich, and socialist. "You are the one comparing people chatting on a message board to people who have just hacked a man to death on the street." ...What? Jeez, I haven't said a single hateful thing. You sound like a dramaqueen.

by Anonymousreply 8405/22/2013

R81, why are you so obsessed with the sex-lives of Muslim girls in Norway or the US? Seriously, that is your pathetic excuse as to why you're on an anti-Islamic hate campaign, like your murderer idol Anders Breivik?

by Anonymousreply 8705/22/2013

I'd love to do that, R85. Scotland would be a far better place to be than the US right now.

by Anonymousreply 8805/22/2013

Enough with this Norway is the perfect place. Some of us have been alive longer than a day and remember Oslo nicknamed as the Rape capital just what, two years ago? All this "they are just like us" campaign is meant to amend Oslo's bad reputation.

by Anonymousreply 8905/22/2013

Is there anywhere (nice) that the Muslims are not trying to take over?

Seriously.

by Anonymousreply 9005/22/2013

Let me promise you, as gay men, they want you dead. The'll fuck other men to keep their women pure but think YOU are sub-human. Many are wonderful people but most all despise what you are and how you love.

by Anonymousreply 9305/22/2013

[quote] And 2011 saw the highest number of rape cases in Oslo's sexual assault clinic.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with immigrants because Norway perfectly integrates and educates all immigrants and gives them a high standard of living which prevents crime. Everybody knows that! And why would immigrants target women for violent crime? That would never happen in Norway.

by Anonymousreply 9405/22/2013

[quote] highest number of rape cases in Oslo's sexual assault clinic.

Well! That sounds like someone in Norway is obsessed with sex!

by Anonymousreply 9505/22/2013

People on this thread have lost a grip of themselves. Could you all dish out a few more non sequiturs?

by Anonymousreply 9605/22/2013

R91, that poster has decided that all Islam is evil, just as the murderers have decided that all "westerners" (which they are too) are evil. Similar logic. Just as "they all hate you and want to destroy your civilisation" is similar logic.

I'd also like to know what that poster thinks of Anders Breivik, who shares similar to views to him/her on the presence of Muslims in Norway, as do some of the trolls who just turned up.

by Anonymousreply 9705/22/2013

Where did she say Muslims were evil, r97? You are the one using words like evil . Sounds like he is a she and had been harassed by Muslims in another country. I do not see her using words like evil. I see you doing that.

At any rate, it looks like it's a good thing lots of liberal Muslims who love personal freedom and are not criminals are moving to Norway and getting integrated.. It sounds like the Norwegians in Oslo are very crime ridden with all of those sexual assaults. The Muslim émigrés can only make things better.

by Anonymousreply 9805/22/2013

[quote]They are British Muslims. They are home you great eejit.

"YOU people will never be safe". "Get rid of YOUR government". "A British soldier is an eye for an eye".

Yeah...I don't think that guy considers Great Britain "home".

by Anonymousreply 9905/22/2013

So who was the poor guy who was attacked? I haven't found a name or photo.

by Anonymousreply 10105/22/2013

[quote] I grew up in a good, rich commune that integrated immigrants well, were there were good free schools and plenty jobs. You see, immigrants need a good education to learn the language properly and thus adapt to the culture. That's one reason why America is so fucked up, the educational system is fucking shitty. And some schools teach creationism, for fuck's sake. America doesn't understand the importance of good education, but Norway sees it as a human right

Police worry that Oslo’s gang culture has become more widespread and more complex. Newspaper Aftenposten reported on Tuesday that gang battles motivated by revenge, territory and drug-related profits are on the increase. Weapon seizures

Police confiscated a total of 22 firearms linked to organized crime last year, and 21 so far this year.  Many weapons are believed to be in circulation. Since January last year, there have been more than 11 shootings on the streets of Oslo. At least six were linked to criminal gangs, according to police calculations. Gang members have carried out both murders and attempted murders, and “none of these crimes has been solved, which raises the level of tension level,” Einar Aas, head of the Oslo Police District’s organized crime unit, told Aftenposten.

Aas said that profits from drug sales form the basis for the gangs’ existence. “Gangs are the most potent, organized criminals we are working against,” he said, adding that battles are increasingly being fought over market share and sales territory.

[bold] Many former recruits and runners for the old gangs have formed new gangs in recent years, some with links to Albanian criminals.[/bold] All told, gangs in Oslo are now believed capable of mobilizing more than 100 people on each side.

Police reapplying pressure

There are parallels now to the situation in 2006, when [bold] tensions between the Pakistani-dominated “Young Guns” and “B-Gang” (B-gjengen) led to an open gun battle during broad daylight at Oslo’s popular Aker Brygge complex on the waterfront. Hundreds of shocked passers-by witnessed the incident, which was part of a string of related shootings around the capital. [/bold]

Many key gang members were arrested, and others fled the country. Norway’s Ministry of Justice granted NOK 6 million yearly to a major police operation tackling gang violence. Police actions included 24-hour surveillance of gang members, and clamping down even on minor offenses.  They later also used dialogue for intelligence-gathering. The operation ceased in 2011.

Gang violence exploded again last year, however, and Oslo police now have an extra NOK 5 million (USD 860,000) in funding this year for surveillance and investigation of gangs.  They are working closely with other police districts, particularly Romerike, where some key gang members have their base.

------

Good thing those Muslim immigrants are getting such a good education and adapting to the rich culture of Norway. Here in the US, we can only wish to have such a great educational system that results in such good integration into culture. Way to go, Norway. You are a guiding light for your educational system which results in a lack of islamic ghettoes or subcultures.

by Anonymousreply 10205/22/2013

Why, again, do countries like Sweden and Norway import Muslims into their country? It would seem that any other group of asylum-seeking immigrants would be a better option.

by Anonymousreply 10405/22/2013

[quote]"You people will never be safe."

I just knew we hadn't heard the last of Ann Romney

by Anonymousreply 10505/22/2013

This whole thing sounds totally insane.

My guess is that the attack was drug-fueled. Sort of like the guy in Florida who was high on bath salts, who started eating the face off the homeless man.

I saw a video documentary on Liberia, in which the young men were part of the country's "army," and they pretty much behaved like this, and they used drugs to fuel their "bravery." It was scary and disturbing.

The only difference now is that they seem to have brought that culture to London.

by Anonymousreply 10605/23/2013

They've been rioting in Stockholm for 3 NIGHTS. 30 fires!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 10705/23/2013

So what do you realistically propose, r108? Segregated nations? Lol.

by Anonymousreply 11005/23/2013

R106, the Florida cannibal tested positive for nothing but weed.

by Anonymousreply 11105/23/2013

People keep saying these Middle Eastern people need better educations. Middle Eastern people including Jews become more group-orientated the higher education they get. Several of the 9/11 attackers were college educated, so were the Boston Bombers, Osama bin Laden etc. The Middle East is becoming more racical not less.

by Anonymousreply 11305/23/2013

While not all Muslims are violent, but it sure seems that the incidents of violence perpetrated by believers are higher. Higher than those anti-abortion baptists.

Every time there is some slight against the Muslim religion, there are death threats by believers.

by Anonymousreply 11405/23/2013

Nobody is saying middle easterners need better educations, R113

And we're not talking about middle easterners, we're taking about Muslims. The majority of Muslims live outside of the middle east.

by Anonymousreply 11505/23/2013

How is the brave woman an expert on the condition of the murderers? She seems a little too sympathetic...

by Anonymousreply 11605/23/2013

Muslims support violence. These acts of violence are the result of that. They just don't happen out of thin air. What you see is old Muslims fostering hatred and young Muslims carrying out the attacks.

by Anonymousreply 11705/23/2013

Everyone is so calm like this isn't that unusual. Has England really become that bad?

by Anonymousreply 11805/23/2013

[quote] Everyone is so calm like this isn't that unusual. Has England really become that bad?

England -- London in particular -- has a long history iof beheadings, so it's not unusual

by Anonymousreply 11905/23/2013

[quote]So what do you realistically propose, [R108]? Segregated nations? Lol

Japan does it well

by Anonymousreply 12005/23/2013

I wonder why they seek Western freedoms when they don't desire to promote them. There's plenty of people out there that deserve immigration status, why let these clowns in over the more deserving?

The problem I have is the non-radical islamists don't even try to reel in their fanatical freaks. At least we try to make a mockery of our Westboro Baptist and Pat Robertson freaks. But They just sit back and watch in fear I guess. Do they actually agree and that's why they're silent? Why don't they ostracize them?

I don't care for their religion because they don't just evolve. I don't care if it's politically incorrect to think this, but I don't want them in my neighborhood. But they're starting to show up here and I wonder why they're here...especially when I see a man leading a woman dressed in a heavy black burqa by hand down a residential street on a hot, sunny day. She couldn't even get down the sidewalk without tripping over her burqa. It's weird. She couldn't see the flowers blooming in Spring here either.

by Anonymousreply 12105/23/2013

The black lady walking by one of the killers in his rant video just passed by with her shopping cart behind her as if nothing was going on.

FUCKING BIZARRE!!!!!!

by Anonymousreply 12205/23/2013

Third world problem in first world countries.

I believe in smart immigration. I think Europe and to a great extent, the US, need to rethink its immigration policies.

We have enough crazies in the US. We don't need to import more.

by Anonymousreply 12305/23/2013

I am actually thinking about carrying a weapon on me for protection. But how does one defend yourself against 2 machetes? And how does one know when some deranged freak is going to start attacking you? I've never been afraid to walk the streets, but now I am. How the world has changed for the worse.

by Anonymousreply 12505/23/2013

"Why, again, do countries like Sweden and Norway import Muslims into their country?"

I believe it is political. The 1% wanting to make sure that no country or society is too progressive, or too stable, or too organized - they want there to be instability, fractured societies and backward forces to drag societies down. A progressive, politically aware society is one that will take away power from the 1%.

by Anonymousreply 12805/23/2013

I don't know. I think a lot of Muslims are quite normal, non-radicalised people. I live in the UK and I was talking to my driving instructor this morning (during our lesson) and he's Muslim. You could substitute "Muslim" for "Gay" and it's a pretty similar experience. He said, "Something like this happens and aside from how horrible it is, as a Muslim, you just think, 'Oh no. Here we go again.'"

He said he and people like him - who are the vast majority of Muslims - feel a sense of responsibility to remain calm, to pull together with the rest of the British community (which is what they are - British) and put their best selves forward so that people can see they are not all like that.

He said these criminals (that's the word he used) who call themselves Muslim don't even know what it means, that they aren't really Muslim but radicalised, insane criminals; they are small in number but become representative of the entire community in many people's eyes.

I felt sorry for my friend and sympathised a lot with being demonised by people who know nothing about me or my people - and yet, their fear and ignorance rules and serves to make me a prisoner in my own society.

My friend said that country comes first and that is what he teaches his children. That we must protect our country from these criminals and terrorists. He said he came to the UK - about 30 years ago - because it is a better place and he has a better life. He escaped from the violence in his own country (which i think is Pakistan). He is a very nice man. I always find the Muslim people I interact with in London to be very nice, very fair and polite people. They are thoughtful and intelligent in a way that a lot of native Westerners are not.

by Anonymousreply 13005/23/2013

[quote]You could substitute "Muslim" for "Gay" and it's a pretty similar experience.

You do know Muslims call for gays to be killed, R130, don't you?

by Anonymousreply 13105/23/2013

Muslim organizations in the UK have already condemned the attacks, per the Guardian article.

by Anonymousreply 13205/23/2013

Does your instructor know that you're gay?

by Anonymousreply 13305/23/2013

There must be a huge number of ignorant, bigoted people on Datalounge for so many on this thread to be treating all Muslims as if they were the same as these machete-wielding radicals. They don't exemplify most Muslims any more than the people who kill abortion doctors exemplify all Christians, or than Karl Rove exemplifies all atheists.

by Anonymousreply 13505/23/2013

[quote]You could substitute "Muslim" for "Gay" and it's a pretty similar experience.

The gay extremists flew a hijacked plane into a skyscraper because they wanted to kill Americans and make its citizens live in fear.

The gay court ordered the Muslim men to be beheaded because they were discovered to be Muslim.

by Anonymousreply 13705/23/2013

[quote]You could substitute "Muslim" for "Gay" and it's a pretty similar experience.

Muslims are hanged in Iran for being Muslim.

Oh, wait...

by Anonymousreply 13805/23/2013

Erm, the substitution was obviously meant in terms of the blanket demonisation of a people. Like if somebody decided that because Jeffrey Dahmer was gay then it followed logically that all gay people were serial-killing cannibals, etc. But, y'know, whatever. Carry on.

by Anonymousreply 13905/23/2013

[quote]Erm, the substitution was obviously meant in terms of the blanket demonisation of a people. Like if somebody decided that because Jeffrey Dahmer was gay then it followed logically that all gay people were serial-killing cannibals, etc. But, y'know, whatever. Carry on.

No, you're backtracking and you know it. It can't be denied that gays are killed by Muslims. But, y'know, whatever. Pick and choose your own facts.

by Anonymousreply 14005/23/2013

[quote] It can't be denied that gays are killed by Muslims.

It can, however, be denied that all or most Muslims kill gays, just as it can be denied that all or most gays are paranoid, racist, xenophobe freaks despite the behavior of some gay DLers.

by Anonymousreply 14305/23/2013

R142 OMG! You F&F someone who politely disagrees with you?

You are more like a crazy jihadist than you think!

by Anonymousreply 14405/23/2013

Then what was colonialism and slavery about,r56?

by Anonymousreply 14505/23/2013

Bill Maher had a "NEW RULE" a while ago (I'm paraphrasing):

If you want people to stop thinking your religion is medieval, stop beheading people!

by Anonymousreply 14705/23/2013

These murderers, or at least one of them, were apparently of Nigerian origin (i.e. raised in the UK but of Nigerian parentage). Actually, one was a convert from a devout Christian family to what he thought is Islam. Nigerians and West Africans in Britain are some of the most solid, upright and hard-working people who raise their children with good values and pump into them the idea that if they work hard they can be achievers.

These scum murderers are nothing to do with British Muslims or minorities. They are freaks with their own bizarre view of things.

by Anonymousreply 14805/23/2013

Exactly, R147.

by Anonymousreply 14905/23/2013

R146, you are mad. We're not supporting homophobic Muslims, we're saying that Muslims are not all violent, indiscriminate murderers, as you and some of your friends are trying to claim. All you are trying to do is stoke up the same generic hatred for and fear of you are accusing Muslims of having.

We're gay too, you know, and it's not your job to decide that you represent all gays or are the voice of gays vis-a-vis Muslims. Your disgusting views have nothing to do with me, so stop thinking you are speaking up for gay people.

by Anonymousreply 15005/23/2013

Are all Nigerians and West Africans Muslim?

If not, why are you lumping them all together?

by Anonymousreply 15105/23/2013

r145

Muslims have always been enthusiastic practitioners of colonialism and slavery.

by Anonymousreply 15305/23/2013

[quote] My friend said that country comes first and that is what he teaches his children.

He's not telling you the truth. Islam comes first. But he is telling you what you want to hear. I dont blame him for telling you what you want to hear. He doesn't want any backlash. Why would he? Better to tell everyone to remain calm.

Funny how I never heard Londoners saying anything good about Irish Catholics during the IRA bombing campaigns. They were never saying, "Most Irish Catholics are good people and are just like us." Funny how that goes. they certainly bend over backwards for the Muslims. I like how "the brave woman" described this bloodstained guy. ""“He was not high, he was not on drugs, he was not an alcoholic or drunk, he was just distressed, upset. He was in full control of his decisions and ready to everything he wanted to do"

He was distressed and upset. I wonder if she would have used the same words to describe an IRA gunman who had just blown someone's head off in the street?

by Anonymousreply 15405/23/2013

I was going to post that, R154. They know what to say to your face. If Islamic leaders were truly saying "cut this shit out, fools" behind the scenes, incidents like this would not happen. But they don't, they fuel the fire.

A good way to get them to reveal their true face is to bring up Israel. The most seemingly mild mannered Muslim will start foaming at the mouth within minutes if you just say the "I" word.

by Anonymousreply 15505/23/2013

I think this is a game changer, much more than the attack on the tube/bus where anyone could be killed.

by Anonymousreply 15705/23/2013

"Behind the scenes"? Is there some secret Muslim meeting you think this guy goes to that no one knows about? Or do you think this guy's mosque advocates violence?

by Anonymousreply 15805/23/2013

After looking at the footage from the Guardian, All I could think of while that animal was spewing his "political " garbage, was the body of the poor guy lying in the street.

I'm glad the women were brave enough to go to him and pray, or attempt to bring comfort even though he was obviously dead. At least they were shielding him from further degradation. He was someone's son. He has loved ones out here, and they can look at this video and see him lying in the street, and I find it very painful.

These men aren't terrorists. They are just thrill killers seeking to place their behavior in a political context. I'd chop them in pieces and send them to Hell, one inch at a time.

by Anonymousreply 16005/23/2013

[quote] These men aren't terrorists. They are just thrill killers seeking to place their behavior in a political context

They are killing in a religious context, not a political one. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is what they said. Nothing political about that.

by Anonymousreply 16105/23/2013

I remember in "Religulous" when Bill Maher spoke with the Muslim rapper in London and the Muslim woman in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh's murder. Neither would really budge on the idea of jihad and were super evasive. To them, their leaders had no responsibility to tone down violent rhetoric.

Also, google "Religulous Islam". I'm amazed Bil Maher hasn't been killed by a Muslim yet. They are violently angry that they were portrayed as violently angry.

by Anonymousreply 16205/23/2013

I'm thinking about getting some shark proof cages, putting 4 little wheels on them and start selling them in London and other European cities with large Muslim population. I might get rich!

by Anonymousreply 16305/23/2013

THIS IS A HOAX?

by Anonymousreply 16405/23/2013

[quote] I remember in "Religulous" when Bill Maher spoke with the Muslim rapper in London and the Muslim woman in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh's murder. Neither would really budge on the idea of jihad and were super evasive.

Over the years Bill Maher said he has questioned many Muslims about the fatwah that was put out on Salmon Rushdie and he couldn't find anyone who would outright say that a Muslim shouldn't be killed for a book he wrote about religion.

by Anonymousreply 16705/23/2013

[quote] English Defense League gathered, singing nationalistic songs

What's a nationalistic song in England? "God Save the Queen"? "Jerusalem"?

by Anonymousreply 16805/23/2013

10 German bombers in the air, R168?

by Anonymousreply 16905/23/2013

The reality is all cultures are not the same. What doesn't assimmulate and evolve needs to be elsewhere where they can thrive among their own kind. In their own land, they can be what and how they want and it's their business, rightfully so, not our headache. This all everyone is the exactly the same is a lie and always will be. We don't need and why should we desire every culture on the planet living on top of each other in dense places? Of course there's conflict and will always forever be conflict because the truth is these two dissimilar cultures simply are not designed to mix. Why are we trying to make them like us is the question I have. If they want "freedoms," let them duke it out among each other for power and control. It's insanity to bring them into your own yard. We need to bring all our soldiers home also and get out of their space.

by Anonymousreply 17005/23/2013

R41/R142, if you have reached the point where you are unable to tell the difference between civil, informed discourse about the real diversity in the world and homophobic defense of hateful, insane radical Islamists, you're not doing any of us gay people a favor.

You fall on both ends of the "insufferable" spectrum simultaneouls: Mary! and cunt.

by Anonymousreply 17105/23/2013

[quote] The Muslim Council of Britain condemned the attacks and called for solidarity between communities. “Our thoughts are with the victim and his family. This attack on a member of the Armed Forces is dishonorable, and no cause justifies this murder. This action will no doubt heighten tensions on the streets of the United Kingdom. We call on all our communities, Muslim and non-Muslim, to come together in solidarity to ensure the forces of hatred do not prevail.”

Dishonorable. Not horrifying, not brutal, not unimaginable. Dishonorable.

It then basically goes on to ask that nobody beat up Muslims, which seems to be their main worry after some random guy was hacked to death by extremists.

by Anonymousreply 17205/23/2013

The vast majority of people are peaceful, R170.

The task is to weed out the ones that are not.

by Anonymousreply 17305/23/2013

How about this?

Can we agree that it is a bad thing to cut peoples' heads off in support of any cause?

And that religious and gender bias and homophobia are bad?

And that not all people belonging to a religion or who are members of a religion similar in some ways to their are responsible for the actions of others?

And that many of the posters here are lunatics, hysterics, mean-spirited creeps or trolls?

by Anonymousreply 17405/23/2013

Nigerian cuisine is scrumptious. Love their rice dishes.

by Anonymousreply 17505/23/2013

[quote] We need to bring all our soldiers home also and get out of their space.

I absolutely agree with this. Aside from Afghanistan, we have an air base in Kyrgystan which we need to vacate. If the US needs a military base in that part of the world, why not go to Georgia?

by Anonymousreply 17605/23/2013

For those keeping track, this is another violent incident that did not involve militant atheist.

by Anonymousreply 17705/23/2013

I haven't heard any lunacy or hysterics, R174. Nobody has called for Muslims to be killed or hurt. Nobody has called for all Muslims to be deported. We have said that there really isn't a good reason to import people with such different values into cultures those people do not like and do not make an effort to assimilate into.

by Anonymousreply 17805/23/2013

?

by Anonymousreply 17905/23/2013

There are plenty of people who wouldn't mind emigrating to Western Europe. Poles, Moldavians, Latvians, Russians. Hmm.. Why wouldn't Swedes prefer Russian immigrants to Muslim immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and Asia, I wonder? I'm sure Swedes are not prejudiced against Russians, right? Swedes pride themselves at being so unbigoted. Same with Norway. Norwegians are just brilliant at bringing in immigrants and putting them all over the country so why not open immigration up to all the Russians who would like to live there? Seems to me that they are discriminating against Russians, who deserve protection from Putin's government as much as Muslims supposedly deserve protection from the governments of their home countries. In fact, i hear Norway is deporting Russians who seek asylum. That's not fair. Why is someone from Pakistan a fair asylum-seeker while someone from Ossetia is not?

Mexicans probably wouldn't mind going to the UK or Denmark. Romania is a very poor country, why not bring in Romanians to live and work and become citizens of western Europe and north America? Why are Muslims being given priority as immigrants? It doesn't make sense.

by Anonymousreply 18005/23/2013

R179 No

by Anonymousreply 18105/23/2013

You want lunacy and hysterics, R174, just go to R179's link and watch that guy Christopher Green.

by Anonymousreply 18205/23/2013

[quote] I haven't heard any lunacy or hysterics

I would say that F&F'ing anyone who disagrees with you, even if they do so in a reasoned, civil manner, is lunacy. It's also extremely immature.

by Anonymousreply 18305/23/2013

I have heard a rumor that they lured the guy they killed by pretending to have drugs for sale.

I wonder when the name of the victim will be released.

by Anonymousreply 18405/23/2013

Who say's they're not, R180?

by Anonymousreply 18605/23/2013

R185: Here's a fun fact for you. In the recent debate over equal marriage in England and Wales every Muslim MP voted in favour.

Now, please go and let your head explode somewhere else.

by Anonymousreply 18705/23/2013

[quote]Here's a fun fact for you. In the recent debate over equal marriage in England and Wales every Muslim MP voted in favour.

And Muslim civilians, what are their thoughts on equal marriage?

by Anonymousreply 18805/23/2013

I'm thinking these guys were probably juiced to the gills

by Anonymousreply 18905/23/2013

Who say's they're not, [R180]?

How many train bombings have these Poles, Russians, Latvians, Mexicans committed in Western Europe? How many street beheadings? How many commercial jet plane attacks? How many times have they rioted for days in France, Britain, Sweden? How many guns have been pulled off of them by street gang units in Oslo?

by Anonymousreply 19005/23/2013

[quote]This attack on a member of the Armed Forces is dishonorable, and no cause justifies this murder.

**WINK**

by Anonymousreply 19105/23/2013

[quote]Why wouldn't Swedes prefer Russian immigrants to Muslim immigrants from Africa, the Middle East and Asia, I wonder?

Its a tough call. Would you rather have filthy religious nuts or filthy, ignorant gangsters?

by Anonymousreply 19205/23/2013

Are uncivilized third world savages the REAL problem? Not really. Civilized nations will not stop the carnage and cultural rot until they deal with PC, which is the real evil in the world today.

by Anonymousreply 19305/23/2013

R190, My question was who said Sweden was preventing those people from emigrating?

by Anonymousreply 19405/23/2013

Yes, because the Mexicans and Russians are never violent at home.

by Anonymousreply 19505/23/2013

[quote] Its a tough call. Would you rather have filthy religious nuts or filthy, ignorant gangsters?

I say, are you prejudiced against ALL Russians?! That's unacceptable! You can't lump everyone together.

by Anonymousreply 19605/23/2013

In a couple of hundred years, the whole world will be ruled by conservative Islamists, and our descendents will look back on this secular century with wonderment and longing.

by Anonymousreply 19705/23/2013

R193, You're apparently a first-world ignorant, uncivilized bigot, so care to jump off a bridge?

Charity begins at home.

by Anonymousreply 19805/23/2013

Ludicrous rot R193. PC started as a joke among leftists. How it ever became an article of gospel faith to Misogynist Racist American Males is a story for the psychiatric profession to tell, but not one for the factual history books.

by Anonymousreply 19905/23/2013

[quote]In a couple of hundred years, the whole world will be ruled by conservative Islamists, and our descendents will look back on this secular century with wonderment and longing.

True.

by Anonymousreply 20005/23/2013

Hey R190 how many people have the Muslims poisoned with polonium? Oh, that's right, none. How many depleted uranium weapons have they fired in your neighborhood? How many experiments of chemical and biological agent diffusion have they carried out on the unsuspecting populace of your Euro cities?

by Anonymousreply 20105/23/2013

[quote] so care to jump off a bridge?

You are so hateful and violent in your responses.

by Anonymousreply 20205/23/2013

[quote]Ludicrous rot [R193]. PC started as a joke among leftists. How it ever became an article of gospel faith to Misogynist Racist American Males is a story for the psychiatric profession to tell, but not one for the factual history books.

PC people should be shot. It's a necessary first step toward saving the civilized world and its worthwhile cultures.

by Anonymousreply 20305/23/2013

PC is a term coined by the right after they became indignant when they were called on wanton bigotry.

Fact.

by Anonymousreply 20405/23/2013

R187 is wrong.

[quote]Among the dissenters was Gillingham and Rainham MP Rehman Chishti, who has consistently opposed gay marriage, describing it as a "redefinition". He was the only Medway MP who spoke in the debate, telling members: "On religious organisations, the minister will know that 5% of the UK population is Muslim. What proportion of the Muslim community responded to the consultation? How many were for it and how many were against it? My understanding is that not a single mosque responded by supporting the redefinition of marriage."

by Anonymousreply 20505/23/2013

That's precious, R202.

Should I try to be more PC?

by Anonymousreply 20605/23/2013

[quote]In a couple of hundred years, the whole world will be ruled by conservative Islamists, and our descendents will look back on this secular century with wonderment and longing.

Sick and sad, isn't it? And we could stop the slide into that mess today simply by destroying political correctness. PC people are masochistic self-hating human filth.

by Anonymousreply 20705/23/2013

They've identified the victim. Looks like he had sizemeat, what a shame.

by Anonymousreply 20805/23/2013

Go ahead and rant and rave as you circle the drain, R207 (and all of your other personas).

by Anonymousreply 20905/23/2013

As you can see from slime like r204, the goal is to shield the worst ideas and behavior on Earth from criticism by calling people "bigots" for telling the truth. People like r204 WANT the repressive barbaric Islamic future.

by Anonymousreply 21005/23/2013

Hello trash at r209. What brings you here today? No beheadings on your calendar?

by Anonymousreply 21105/23/2013

Glub glub boys. Glub glub.

by Anonymousreply 21205/23/2013

There used to be another word for PC - appeasement

"An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last" - Churchill

"No man can tame a tiger into a kitten by stroking it. There can be no appeasement with ruthlessness. There can be no reasoning with an incendiary bomb." -FDR

by Anonymousreply 21305/23/2013

My comments have nothing to do with Islam, per se.

But the idea that you are superior is laughable.

You're just too cowardly to do anything radical.

by Anonymousreply 21405/23/2013

[quote] how many people have the Muslims poisoned with polonium?

How many pet dogs have European non-Muslims poisoned in Spain and the UK? Oh yeah -- scores

by Anonymousreply 21505/23/2013

[quote] How many depleted uranium weapons have they fired in your neighborhood?

That's what happens when you harbor people who attack the military headquarters of another country without warning. It's called "payback."

by Anonymousreply 21605/23/2013

This is indirectly caused by the fall of communism. The absurd notion that feudal Arab despots are the future commanders of the world is one that would have been laughed at by anyone with the Communist or American Babbitt belief in progress.

Nothing is more ephemeral than the power these Sauds wield, and without Saudi state support, the stain of Wahabbism would be wiped out worldwide in about ten years.

This is not a conflict between the West and Muslim civilization. This is a conflict within Muslim civilization.

by Anonymousreply 21705/23/2013

[quote] How many experiments of chemical and biological agent diffusion have they carried out on the unsuspecting populace of your Euro cities?

Link to these secret conspiracies please. I'm sure the source is beyond reproach.

by Anonymousreply 21805/23/2013

Grow some balls, R213.

Everybody is not out to get you.

by Anonymousreply 21905/23/2013

"No people in history have ever survived who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies"

by Anonymousreply 22005/23/2013

Let's hope someone is out to get you r219. I wish them success.

by Anonymousreply 22105/23/2013

I think most non-Muslim people are just fucking sick of this shit.

Period.

We've tried the PC shit. It hasn't worked.

by Anonymousreply 22205/23/2013

These attacks will mysteriously stop after the British get smart and start attacking not mosques but Saudi princes on shopping sprees. Knock a couple dozen of them and there wouldn't be ANY trouble.

by Anonymousreply 22305/23/2013

[quote]You're just too cowardly to do anything radical.

I know you're ill-motivated vermin, but you inadvertently make a valid point. Civilized people can become reluctant to defend themselves, which is the whole point here.

by Anonymousreply 22405/23/2013

It has never been tried R223. R216, Iraq did not attack our military headquarters. Ever. Indeed, I don't even think they threatened to.

by Anonymousreply 22505/23/2013

The US could have won by using WMDs, but it would have been a very short victory.

by Anonymousreply 22605/23/2013

Bring it on, R221.

That's a major difference between us--I don't think anyone *is* out to get me, and I'm not afraid if they *do* try to get me.

by Anonymousreply 22705/23/2013

I'm not talking about civilized people, R224.

I'm talking about you.

by Anonymousreply 22805/23/2013

"No people in history have ever survived who thought they could protect their freedom by making themselves inoffensive to their enemies"

What stupid nonsense. SWITZERLAND, dumbass. HELLO? Do you have a brain?

by Anonymousreply 22905/23/2013

wrong thread, sorry

by Anonymousreply 23005/23/2013

North Vietnam had a military alliance with Russia and China that would have obliged them to come to its aid.

If we had nuked Hanoi, we might have caused a nuclear war.

Some of you have ZERO understanding of the world. Like, really truly NONE.

by Anonymousreply 23105/23/2013

I still want R187 or someone to answer my question at R188.

by Anonymousreply 23205/23/2013

[quote]I'm not talking about civilized people, [R224], I'm talking about you.

You certainly don't know me. You're a kook.

by Anonymousreply 23305/23/2013

[quote]I don't think anyone *is* out to get me, and I'm not afraid if they *do* try to get me.

Of course not, you're an Islam proponent. You side with violent thug fundies. You benefit from the civilized world not responding to your kind as it should.

by Anonymousreply 23405/23/2013

I know enough about you, R233.

by Anonymousreply 23505/23/2013

Wrong again, R234.

I don't support Islam at all.

I don't side with violent thug fundies, or any type of fundies, and that includes you.

by Anonymousreply 23605/23/2013

The Muslim defenders on this board are fucking nuts. They're the same people who go on and on about how evil Christians and Jews are, but then go crazy when somebody dares to attack a religion that's inherently fundamentalist. Then they yell "racism." It really shows you how far people have fallen in terms of critical thinking skills.

by Anonymousreply 23705/23/2013

[quote]The Muslim defenders on this board are fucking nuts. They're the same people who go on and on about how evil Christians and Jews are, but then go crazy when somebody dares to attack a religion that's inherently fundamentalist. Then they yell "racism." It really shows you how far people have fallen in terms of critical thinking skills.

True.

by Anonymousreply 23805/23/2013

Right and every time a Christian gay bashes one of us, you go out and tell people to nuke Rome, and that is highly effective. Oh, that hasn't worked?? Gee, I wonder why.

by Anonymousreply 23905/23/2013

I vote for feeding all religious nutbags to the loins.

by Anonymousreply 24005/23/2013

lions!

by Anonymousreply 24105/23/2013

It's okay not to like a culture that you see causes such repression violence within and outside it's ranks. I think it's okay not to want to have them in your neighborhood. Just because they exist doesn't mean you have to invite them (and the entire world actually) to sit at your dinner table. A place in your home should be reserved for those who exhibit good manners and those who desire to respectfully communicate with you. Anyone who resents your hospitality needs to leave. The entire world does not own your home just because we're all born on the same planet. Some countries are choosing to lose their identity to the lowest common denominator and think they are morally superior for doing so.

by Anonymousreply 24205/23/2013

R229, Switzerland voted to ban further minaret construction. Lots of Muslims took offense at that.

by Anonymousreply 24305/23/2013

Lots of liberals have an instinctive reaction to defend people they believe to be the victims of discrimination. But it's time to accept (ESPECIALLY as LGBT people) that all these religious lunatics deserve condemnation. I gag every time I see/hear someone spout off the "religion of peace" bullshit.

And a big eye roll to the ones in this thread comparing Muslim immigration in Europe to Mexican immigration in the US. Our immigrants work remedial jobs for piss poor pay, and on the whole don't hurt anyone. And please, no more links dealing with Latino street gangs. We have black street gangs and white supremacists too.

The language barrier is the major block to assimilation here. Luckily we're not dealing with an influx of religious extremists. The Christians are bad enough.

by Anonymousreply 24405/23/2013

Pseudo-liberals. Real liberals can differentiate and can think critically. But there's a neoliberalism that's sprung up which is most peculiar because it is both conservative, in some respects, and yet stridently PC in others. The pro-Muslim thing is neoliberalism at its worse.

by Anonymousreply 24505/23/2013

I agree, R245

by Anonymousreply 24605/23/2013

R154 Actually you are wrong. Most people in Britain knew that the majority of Irish Catholics were good people and would have said it. We have ex IRA men in government now doing as best a job as they can working alongside fundies like the DUP. Unfortunately there are still crazies on both sides. This killing made me think of the poor two soldiers who were gunned down by dissidents a couple of years ago or the killing of two soldiers who went the wrong way one day and were brutally murdered by IRA men. No one from any community condoned their behaviour. The Shankill butchers were equally as nasty.

by Anonymousreply 24705/23/2013

To all the defenders: next time you walk through a "Muslim area"--in England--you'd better not be "dressed like a bloody fag":

by Anonymousreply 24805/23/2013

[quote]To all the defenders: next time you walk through a "Muslim area"--in England--you'd better not be "dressed like a bloody fag":

The Muslim defenders love not answering that question. They just skirt around it and say "it's extremists".

by Anonymousreply 24905/23/2013

The Spectator: British Muslims Denounce The Woolwich Attack

by Anonymousreply 25005/23/2013

I love you r89

by Anonymousreply 25105/23/2013

I want R141 to answer this question:

[quote]I'm curious how many of these Muslim defenders would go to into one of these Muslim ghettos alongside their partners. Shall we guess how long they'd last?

So, how long, R141? Five seconds or ten?

by Anonymousreply 25205/23/2013

[quote]Is the oil money really that powerful?

Yes. I actually wonder what the Middle East would look like if they'd never found oil.

by Anonymousreply 25405/23/2013

COMPLETELY AGREE, R253

I think it is political - the way that all the parties (despite the fake "left" and "right" theatrics) are promoting globalism, outsourcing, mass unemployment at home, and the destruction of social-democratic societies. Oil is that powerful, politicians are just bought-out lackeys, the media are lackeys that never tell the truth on this subject. I think they don't want to tell the truth about it because it would unravel all of the lies.

by Anonymousreply 25505/23/2013

Good post, R253. You sum it up precisely.

by Anonymousreply 25605/23/2013

[R253] Your sentiments mirror my own and I too feel that American and British society has become too PC in regards to having frank and open discourse about radical islamist and terrorists. Decent people do understand that not all muslims believe in the terrorist acts or support them, but the terrorist are doing a fine job in still scaring and terrorizing the rest of us.

In April we had the Boston bombings; in May we have this horrific beheading of a defenseless man. What's in store for June, I shudder... but it's coming, they will not let up.

We cannot just go about business as usual because it just appears as if we're in denial. People have a right to mourn and be angry, but we also have to have the courage to say no more and become more aware and more vigilant. And I do dare say, just go ahead and shoot to kill, not shoot to wound. These monsters are useless amongst a human society. And it does pain me to admit this.

by Anonymousreply 25705/23/2013

sing it r244.

I am one of those who is constantly reminding others that these folks have a right to celebrate their religion.

But....let's be real here: Religion SUCKS!

by Anonymousreply 25805/23/2013

So yeah, this is what we have over Europe: OUR immigrants are better than YOUR immigrants!

USA! USA!

by Anonymousreply 25905/23/2013

PC is ideological fascism.

by Anonymousreply 26005/23/2013

[quote]Decent people do understand that not all muslims believe in the terrorist acts or support them, but the terrorist are doing a fine job in still scaring and terrorizing the rest of us.

Exactly. The terrorists and their supporters have done a good job of painting as racist and bigoted anyone who notes that these acts are often done in the name of Islam.

by Anonymousreply 26105/23/2013

To quote Maya Angelou by way of Oprah: when people show you who they are, believe them.

Islamists have said again and again that their goal is not equality, but takeover. I don't understand why people act like we're projecting these ideas on to them when its so obvious that they won't stop, not even if every Western army was taken out of the middle east and a free state of Palestine was created.

by Anonymousreply 26205/23/2013

BBC has a video of one of the killers from a demonstration back in 2007.

by Anonymousreply 26305/23/2013

w&w (for the wisdom) for r242

by Anonymousreply 26405/23/2013

And THIS is why I didn't vote for Obama. I'm sorry but the right is right about him and the apology tour, the kissing up to terrorists, the fucked up shit with Israel that the USA is doing. Fuck that.

by Anonymousreply 26505/23/2013

Really R56?

by Anonymousreply 26605/23/2013

Yeah R56, asians are soooo nice.

by Anonymousreply 26705/23/2013

Heaven forbid that we should actually pay any attention to why these people do what they do or whether they have legitimate grievances. Far better to just label them "terrorists" and continue spending 50% of our discretionary budget - the sort of money that could feasibly cure cancer - endlessly fighting them.t

by Anonymousreply 26805/23/2013

"Heaven forbid that we should actually pay any attention to why these people do what they do or whether they have legitimate grievances."

I don't know - chopping someone's head off doesn't really scream "please understand me!" in my opinion.

by Anonymousreply 26905/23/2013

or a great message

by Anonymousreply 27005/23/2013

[quote][[R253]] Your sentiments mirror my own and I too feel that American and British society has become too PC in regards to having frank and open discourse about radical islamist and terrorists.

[quote]PC is ideological fascism.

Brits sure do love screaming "PC"

by Anonymousreply 27105/23/2013

[quote]What scares me most is that slowly but surely people in the west are changing their values and morals according to the Islamists, without even noticing it.

Yeah, okay Anders Breivik.

by Anonymousreply 27205/23/2013

[quote]Islamists

Just say "Muslims"

by Anonymousreply 27305/23/2013

[quote]Hey [R190] how many people have the Muslims poisoned with polonium? Oh, that's right, none. How many depleted uranium weapons have they fired in your neighborhood? How many experiments of chemical and biological agent diffusion have they carried out on the unsuspecting populace of your Euro cities?

Shhh. Westerners are a peaceful bunch.

by Anonymousreply 27505/23/2013

[quote]Right and every time a Christian gay bashes one of us, you go out and tell people to nuke Rome, and that is highly effective. Oh, that hasn't worked?? Gee, I wonder why.

Zing!

by Anonymousreply 27605/23/2013

[quote]In a couple of hundred years, the whole world will be ruled by conservative Islamists, and our descendents will look back on this secular century with wonderment and longing.

Oh, dear, and lulz!

by Anonymousreply 27705/23/2013

[italic][R185]: Here's a fun fact for you. In the recent debate over equal marriage in England and Wales every Muslim MP voted in favour.

Now, please go and let your head explode somewhere else.[/quote]

Shhh, you're dealing with rabid white conservatives. They'll never admit that they're stupid.

by Anonymousreply 27805/23/2013

uh, R274, screaming PC meant Freeper in 1989. You're a bit behind the times

by Anonymousreply 27905/23/2013

[quote]They are killing in a religious context, not a political one. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth is what they said. Nothing political about that.

Sounds like the American "Justice" System, and the majority of Americans.

by Anonymousreply 28005/23/2013

The best thing that can be done is for the West to get the fuck out of the Middle East. It's the cause of much of this damage -- centuries worth! I'm lookin' specifically at you Britain!

by Anonymousreply 28105/23/2013

And the guy in the video chopping people up isn't "rabid"?

by Anonymousreply 28205/23/2013

Britain's imperialism is the major reason the Middle East is so fucked up.

by Anonymousreply 28405/23/2013

Substitute "Muslim" for "Christian" and there would not be ONE asshole apologist on this site defending the murderers OR the religion.

Stop conflating Islam with race...it's a mutable, CULTURAL choice and NOT a genetic trait. And I'll be fucked if I'm required to respect,approve or even tolerate someone else's cultural or lifestyle "decision".

You know, the same argument that fundamentalist fuckers of ALL stripes hurl at gays.

by Anonymousreply 28505/23/2013

R284.

Thank you Sheikh Izz ad-Din al-Qassam.

by Anonymousreply 28605/23/2013

R269

The very essence of "Bleeding Heart Liberal"

by Anonymousreply 28705/23/2013

R250.

I've got one word for you:

TAQIYAA

by Anonymousreply 28805/23/2013

oops...R268 I mean. Sorry 269.

by Anonymousreply 28905/23/2013

Am I bovvered?

by Anonymousreply 29005/23/2013

The killer's cleric is a radical Muslim as well.

by Anonymousreply 29105/24/2013

Did r253 finally get banned for his OCD cuntness? Hope so.

by Anonymousreply 29205/24/2013

Sorry, I mean r252 NOT R253.

by Anonymousreply 29305/24/2013

I generally have no problem with Muslims, most of the Muslims I've met have been very pleasant.

I do however have a problem with the people on the left (Glenn Greenwald and his fangirls) who believe that every act of violence committed my Muslims in the West is now justifiable because of drones and the Afghan War. Drones and the Afghan War are terrible but a soldier walking down the street in London does not deserve to be hacked to death because of them.

by Anonymousreply 29405/24/2013

Middle Eastern people started the fire, not Westerners. The Middle East was the birthplace of civilization. Tribalism was a hallmark even of those early civilizations. The characteristics we see today were there thousands of years ago and have been greatly exacerbated by Islam.

by Anonymousreply 29505/24/2013

Paging Mrs. Lovett!

by Anonymousreply 29705/24/2013

I want R278 to answer the question at R188.

by Anonymousreply 29805/24/2013

So did they catch the killers?

by Anonymousreply 29905/24/2013

R299 - "they" shot them, so, yup, they caught the murdering slime...

by Anonymousreply 30005/24/2013

If you've ever been probed and felt violated by the TSA, you can blame the Muslims for it. If you've had to take off your shoes, or had your water bottle confiscated, you can blame the Muslims for that, too.

Buddhists self-immolate to protest. I wish the Muslims would do the same.

by Anonymousreply 30105/24/2013

[quote]If you've ever been probed and felt violated by the TSA, you can blame the Muslims for it. If you've had to take off your shoes, or had your water bottle confiscated, you can blame the Muslims for that, too.

You've had to take off your shoes? NO, THE HORROR!

If you've ever had to pay THOUSANDS more in taxes and been denied the right to be married and get the security that comes with it, you can blame the Christians.

I'd go barefoot forever to change that.

by Anonymousreply 30205/24/2013

What does that have to do with anything, R302?

by Anonymousreply 30305/24/2013

Turning [/italic] off, hopefully.

This thread has really become derailed. Over three hundred posts and no one has commented on whether the victim is attractive or fuckable.

by Anonymousreply 30405/24/2013

[quote] f you've ever had to pay THOUSANDS more in taxes and been denied the right to be married and get the security that comes with it, you can blame the Christians.

Do you think your life as a gay man would fair much better in a Muslim country? Are you hoping that they are more enlightened and will grant you and your partner the right to kiss or even be seen in public? Good luck with that!

by Anonymousreply 30505/24/2013

R302, answer the question at R188.

by Anonymousreply 30605/24/2013

R304, see R208. It got lost in the back and forth between the two nutjobs.

by Anonymousreply 30705/24/2013

Whenever something like this happens, I notice internet message boards and online newspaper commenting sections are not filled with messages saying, "I'm a Muslim and I find this horrifying. It's completely wrong and I totally disagree with these maniacs. They should be locked up forever."

When crazy Christians do crazy things, I do notice Christians denouncing the crazies.

by Anonymousreply 30805/24/2013

Really? I don't.

by Anonymousreply 30905/24/2013

R302/R307 please answer the question I asked you.

by Anonymousreply 31005/24/2013

Why are white gay men so bigoted?

by Anonymousreply 31105/24/2013

[quote]We cry and scream, "Why do they hate us?" when we are attacking and killing men, women and children in their countries.

They would attack and hate us anyway. The goal isn't to be "left alone", it is to dominate the west with Islam and global jihad. I don't understand why you won't take these people at their word.

by Anonymousreply 31205/24/2013

[quote]When crazy Christians do crazy things, I do notice Christians denouncing the crazies.

Bullshit. They say "he wasn't a real Christian" and move on with it.

by Anonymousreply 31305/24/2013

Your assumption that everyone posting against Muslims is white proves you are the bigoted one, r311.

by Anonymousreply 31405/24/2013

Another day, another crazy Muslim in the news

by Anonymousreply 31505/24/2013

r312, until we completely withdraw from the Mideast and completely stop supporting Israel's terrorism - they have every right to attack us.

by Anonymousreply 31705/24/2013

Why do I have the feeling that even if we completely withdrew from the Middle East, and I mean 100%, they'd still find a reason to hate and attack us.

by Anonymousreply 31805/24/2013

r319, same thing. We allow our tax dollars to be sent to Israel to support Israel's terrorist activities. We also allow our tax dollars to be used to support the American military's terrorist activities.

We are just as culpable as the armed forces.

by Anonymousreply 32005/24/2013

The alliance between the world's "left/liberal" forces, the people who are educated and supposedly support human rights and freedom for all, with the most vile, repugnant, fanatic and violent ideology that calls itself Islam, is one of the worst phenomena humanity has ever seen! It's as bad as Nazism and Fascism. They are on a hysterical campaign of shutting up all opposing views and anyone who dares acknowledge reality or criticize Islamonazism is branded a "racist", a lunatic and whatnot. That includes everybody - the media, academics, intellectuals and the common man that is hurt by various manifestations of that vile religion, including muslims themselves, women in particular.

They will not rest until there's is war everywhere and there will be.

by Anonymousreply 32105/24/2013

Hyperbole much, r321?

Calling out bigots like yourself and stating that most of the Muslim world is civilized and not bent on killing is not the same as siding with "Islamonazism" (God I love the terms you bigots always churn out!)

You're a bigot. Admit it and move on, asshole.

by Anonymousreply 32205/24/2013

Go fuck yourself r322. You're not scaring me with your "bigot" routine. More and more people are starting to see what that vile, dangerous religion is about.

by Anonymousreply 32305/24/2013

You know Datalounge is spiraling out of control when debates about Islam drown out a lone sizemeat post.

by Anonymousreply 32405/24/2013

Not trying to scare you, bigot. Just calling you for what you are.

by Anonymousreply 32505/24/2013

Thank you, R325. He's no different that the people he purports to condemn.

by Anonymousreply 32605/24/2013

[quote]Everyone, please join me in F&Fing [R327]. This is liberal space and your kind is not allowed here. If I knew where you lived I'd kill you myself.

ROFL. Thanks for proving my point perfectly, Muhammed.

by Anonymousreply 33005/24/2013

R329 don't for a minute think we don't know you're also R327.

Change things up a bit if you're trying to fool someone.

by Anonymousreply 33105/24/2013

r331 I think you're paranoid. Trolldar again, I'm not r327

by Anonymousreply 33205/24/2013

You know wrong. Keep trying.

by Anonymousreply 33305/24/2013

Oh it's not the same address, idiot.

But why is it that you fly together, right on time?

by Anonymousreply 33405/24/2013

Advocates pedophilia?

by Anonymousreply 33505/24/2013

r332 Don't bother. Let the Islam apologizer trash all he wants. He's proving our points perfectly. He/they know there are less and less buyers of those lies every day.

by Anonymousreply 33605/24/2013

I agree with R321 and R327.

by Anonymousreply 33705/24/2013

You could at least try to change it up a bit, freeper fool.

by Anonymousreply 33905/24/2013

We've had numerous back and forth debates about Muslims and radical Islamists on DL before, but I don't recall a thread having gone so far off the rails as this one with so many "foaming-at-the-mouth lunatics" as R338 describes. Not even the Boston bomber threads. Is it because this was such a brazen and personalized attack carried out with blades? Is it because it happened in the UK and we're seeing some rather unhinged British posters? Is it because the attackers aren't as "cute" as the Tsaraev brothers?

by Anonymousreply 34005/24/2013

R319 No one has the right to attack anyone. Ok so if they do not have the right to attack American Civilians, why does the American Army have the right to attack Muslim civilians? Do you think the innocent children getting half of their faces blown off (Youtube if you wish to see) by American Soldiers are deserving of the consequences from the actions of others? Do you think the innocent Arab families getting their houses sprayed with sewage/bombed, their electricity and food supplies cut are also deserving?

When you contextualise things and remember the USA and the UK ARE at war, it becomes clearer. Western countries believe they have the right to destroy others withut retaliation. Imperialism.

To those posting regarding Muslims supporting Paedophilia, hating Gays etc. How many Muslims have you conversed with regarding these issues? All 1 Billion? Which is what generalised comments imply when you say 'Muslims'.

by Anonymousreply 34105/24/2013

r340 Yeah, because it's perfectly normal and "less loony" to make excuses for a serial killer who's young, hot and wears western clothes, to the point of saying it wasn't his fault.

Okay......

by Anonymousreply 34205/24/2013

[quote] to the point of saying it wasn't his fault.

You seem to be confusing gay men on DL with Tumblr girls. There was commentary about their "hotness," but no sincere attempt at defending them. The usual DL sarcasm that's missing from this thread.

by Anonymousreply 34305/24/2013

When are the British police going to interview the killers? They are not that badly injured. I saw the video where they got shot.

by Anonymousreply 34405/24/2013

I'm in love with a Nigerian Muslim. He never talks about religion, is very Westernized, educated and is ok with my atheism. No one has treated me better and been kinder to me than this man. He was the only person who helped me through my cancer nightmare.

He hates living in Nigeria but has to stay there presently to care for a family member.

by Anonymousreply 34505/24/2013

Have you sent him money R345?

by Anonymousreply 34605/24/2013

Troll-dar reveals that the Islam defender is one person and he’s using all the old tactics that used to work, and sadly still do, on the left – imperialism, evil Zionists, evil conspiracy by Americans. I used to believe it and used to sound just like that person, until I learned about Islam and Muslim ruled countries.

Islamists are brazen enough in the last years to speak their mind freely and finally admit what their violence is all about. There’s not a country in the world that is free of guilt of how it has behaved towards its neighbors and citizens, not one. The difference with Islam is that it is a systematic religion that is rooted in hate, violence and degradation of anyone who is not a compliant Muslim man. The closets ideology to it is Nazism.

Not all Muslims practice that side of their religion, Islamists do. The sad joke is that peaceful Muslims are many times the first victims of the Islamists and they have no one to protect them and speak for them since the left is traditionally siding with their oppressors.

That’s how you get a violent cycle – the left supports the Islamists, the Islamists get to turn more and more dominating and kill off their own opposition, the Western right reacts and get more support. If we on the left don’t get our heads straight towards supporting human rights and not Islamist ideology, we are just as guilty as the right.

by Anonymousreply 34705/25/2013

Ummm, r347, you are one paranoid freak.

There are multiple so-called Islam defenders here.

by Anonymousreply 34805/25/2013

Only bigots use the word "Islamist"

Just sayin'.

by Anonymousreply 34905/25/2013

Europe is soon going to be very sorry they let immigrants in to do the dirty work.

by Anonymousreply 35005/25/2013

Try working your troll-dar, dear R349.

by Anonymousreply 35105/25/2013

I'm with r347

by Anonymousreply 35205/25/2013

Can any Islam defender please answer the question at R188.

by Anonymousreply 35305/25/2013

I'm gay and I think the Daily Mail is tremendous. Although, due it's general lack of proofreading, I am forced to sometimes refer to it as, "DailyFail". Where else would we get our updates on the glamorous life of Joan Collins?

[quote] the majority of Muslims probably oppose same-sex marriage but that doesn't justify the mad, raving hatred on this thread. You never see such foaming-at-the-mouth hatred of Republicans or French anti-SSM protestors.

No, anyone opposing equal marriage is deserving of scorn. This is a gay forum. Yet some gays are defending Muslims...

[quote]This is bigotry and hatred.

No, killing gays is bigotry and hatred.

by Anonymousreply 35505/25/2013

[quote](...) that Muslims are bigoted and hateful towards gay people.

I have to F&F you, R356. This is a gay forum.

by Anonymousreply 35705/25/2013

Oh, and the ironic thing about the Muslim-hating on this thread, using Lee Rigby's murder as their justification, is that his murderers were not even raised Muslims, they (at least one of them and it's highly likely of the other one too) were raised as devout Christians, having been born and raised in the UK. They, of their own interests and outlook, were drawn to this sick, extremist, fundamentalist Islamic group, which is absolutely nothing to do with the huge majority of Muslims in Britain.

The mainstream, majority Muslim groups of Britain have wholeheartedly condemned this attack. It has nothing to do with them. And, they are also not coming out with the usual crap of "yeah, this is terrible, but so's what the west is doing in Muslim countries". Just, full, complete, unequivocal condemnation, horror and outrage.

by Anonymousreply 35805/25/2013

[quote]the majority of Muslims probably oppose same-sex marriage

Are you gay, R358/R356/R354? If so, why are you defending opponents to equal marriage?

by Anonymousreply 35905/25/2013

Why is the webmaster allowing this thread to continue?

When did datalounge become a subsidiary of Pamela Gellars hate empire?

by Anonymousreply 36005/25/2013

I'm personally bigotted towards any culture that covers a woman in blankets and treat women as cattle. I could care less if you think I'm a bigot.

by Anonymousreply 36105/25/2013

[quote] I could care less if you think I'm a bigot.

I couldn't care less either. Islam is bigotry. I won't support homophobia or misogyny (real misogyny, not that troll) and thus, I won't support Islam.

by Anonymousreply 36205/25/2013

Right r361 but there are muslims who don't live like that. It appears from the hateful posts above that you bigots are limping all muslims together.

by Anonymousreply 36305/25/2013

R363, can you answer this question for me:

What percentage of Muslims support equal marriage?

by Anonymousreply 36405/25/2013

R361, After having lived among muslems and also after having travelling through muslem countries, I have no issue with my "bigotry" and will not feign "political correctness" to appease your own prejudice. I respectfully disagree with you.

by Anonymousreply 36505/25/2013

Stop Trying to Split Gays and Muslims!

I have an earnest and sincere question for the LGBT community: Do you support Pamela Geller?

Geller, who is one of the most active proponents of anti-Muslim attitudes in the United States, rose to notoriety as one of the key instigators of the Park51 backlash, misrepresenting a proposed Islamic Community Center (think a YMCA or Jewish Community Center) by calling it the “Ground Zero mosque” and engaging in dishonest rhetoric and blatant fear-mongering. Her organization, Stop the Islamization of America, was identified as a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a civil rights organization, alongside extremist groups like the Ku Klux Klan and Nazis. And it’s earned that label — Geller and her allies have dedicated countless hours and millions upon millions of dollars to drum up hatred, fear and xenophobia toward Muslims.

Last week I learned that Geller and one of her biggest allies, Robert Spencer, are hosting a fundraiser for their anti-Muslim advertisements on the website Indiegogo. This disturbed me for a number of reasons, but particularly because Indiegogo’s terms explicitly prohibit “anything promoting hate.” (Despite reports from me and many others, Indiegogo has so far declined to remove the fundraiser; if so inclined, you can let them know what you think about that here.)

While I was looking into this, I discovered that Geller recently announced plans to run a series of anti-Muslim advertisements in San Francisco quoting Muslim individuals making anti-LGBT statements. Why? Because members of San Francisco’s LGBT community criticized other anti-Muslim ads she has run there.

I tweeted my appreciation that the LGBT community in San Francisco is standing up against her efforts to drive a wedge between LGBT folks and Muslims. Soon after, Geller retweeted me, claiming that she in fact has “huge support in Gay community.” Immediately, her supporters began to lob insults and even threats at me; Spencer himself suggested that I should be rewarded for supporting Muslims by someone “saw[ing] off [my] head.” (Meanwhile, though Geller, Spencer and their supporters kept tweeting at me that Muslims “hate gays” and want to kill me, many Muslim friends and strangers alike tweeted love and support for LGBT equality at me.)

As things settled down, I realized that Geller had stopped responding to me when I requested more information to back up her assertion that she has “huge support in Gay community,” after the only evidence she provided was a link to a Facebook group with 72 members. I’ve since asked her repeatedly for more information, but have not gotten a response.

I couldn’t think of a single LGBT person in my life that would support her work, but I didn’t want to go off of my own judgment alone. So I started asking around. It wasn’t hard to find prominent members of the LGBT community who do not share Geller’s views.

“The idea that the LGBT community should support Islamophobia is offensive and absurd,” said Joseph Ward III, director of Believe Out Loud, an organization that empowers Christians to work for LGBT equality. “[American Muslims] are our allies as we share a common struggle to overcome stereotypes and misconceptions in America.”

“Trying to drive a wedge between the LGBT community and other communities is old, tired and [it] doesn’t work,” said Ross Murray, director of News and Faith Initiatives for GLAAD. “Pitting two communities [like the Muslim and LGBT communities] against one another is an attempt to keep both oppressed. Wedge strategies are offensive and, in the long run, they do not work. Geller is not an LGBT ally — she’s posing as one because it is convenient to her [anti-Muslim] agenda.”

(continued in next post)

by Anonymousreply 36605/25/2013

“As with any attempts at a wedge, these efforts seek to erase the real and powerful reality of LGBT Muslims and seek to create a false dichotomy: All the LGBT people are non-Muslim/Islamophobic and all the Muslims are straight and homophobic,” said Rev. Rebecca Voelkel, program director of the Institute for Welcoming Resources at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. “Particularly given the oppression, marginalization, hatred and violence visited upon the LGBTQ community, it is critically important that we use our spiritual, communal and political power to speak out against the victimization and vilification of any other community. As a Christian lesbian, I must stand against any attempts to victimize another because of their personhood.”

“There’s no doubt that there’s a great deal of religion-based bigotry against LGBT people, although it’s hardly limited to Islam. The Hebrew Scriptures also prescribe the death penalty for some homosexual conduct, but you don’t typically see people using this to inflame anti-Semitic or anti-Christian sentiment,” said John Corvino, author of “What’s Wrong With Homosexuality?” and coauthor of “Debating Same-Sex Marriage.” “To single out Muslims in this way is both unhelpful and unfair.”

Despite her claim, the work of Geller and her colleagues has plenty of opposition in the LGBT community. Why?

For starters, it’s wrong.

As Junaid Jahangir writes in a recent piece at the Huffington Post, “[Geller’s] selective references provide a misguided view of the current Muslim position on queer rights issues.” He rightly notes that her advertisements lift up the views of a controversial Muslim cleric, but ignore the “over 2,500 Muslim intellectuals from 23 countries [that] not only called for an international treaty to counter such clerics, but also called for a tribunal set by the United Nations Security Council to put them on trial for inciting violence.” In his piece, which is a must-read, Jahangir goes on to quote many influential, pro-equality Muslim leaders. Pointing to the activism they are doing to support LGBT rights, he demonstrates that Geller is unfairly — and dangerously — presenting a skewed picture of Muslim views on LGBT people.

“There’s no question that homophobia is rampant among the world’s 1.5 billion Muslims — but that doesn’t negate the fact that there are huge groups of Muslims who have easily reconciled their faith and sexual orientation, like LGBT people in other faith communities,” said Reza Aslan, author of “No God but God” and “Beyond Fundamentalism,” in a recent phone interview. “For a woman who leads an organization that has been labeled a hate group to try to reach out to a community like the LGBT community, by trying to make a connection based on bigotry, is harmful and ridiculous. Bigotry is not a bridge.”

Of course, members of the LGBT community are right to be concerned about the dangers of religious extremism and totalitarianism — whether it is Christian, Muslim or any other expression. But demonizing another community won’t help reduce the influence of religious fundamentalism.

You can be honest about your disagreements without being hateful. I’m a queer atheist, and I believe that there are ideas and practices promoted by Muslims in the name of Islam that are not only false — they’re extremely harmful. But to rally against Muslims and Islam as if they and it are some monolithic bloc is counterproductive; it creates enemies where we need allies. There are many Muslims who oppose cruelty and violence done in the name of Islam and favor equality for all people, and they are positioned to create change. We should be working with them, not standing against all of Islam. Based on my own experiences, I know that this is a much more constructive approach. In my book “Faitheist,” I tell several stories about Muslim friends who are not only accepting of my sexual orientation, but are also fierce allies for LGBT equality.

(continued in next post)

by Anonymousreply 36705/25/2013

That’s the problem with Geller’s advertisements, and with sweeping, generalizing statements about entire groups of people: They don’t account for the diversity of ideas and traditions that exist within any given community. Geller focuses on a ridiculously tiny minority of Muslim extremists in order to paint her picture of Islam, and in doing so she neglects to account for the rich and varied traditions of generosity, selflessness, social progress and forgiveness present within Islam. Not only that, but her efforts alienate key allies — Muslim and non-Muslim alike — who share her concerns about Muslim extremists, but who also recognize that her narrow approach is unfair and dishonest.

Instead of adopting Geller’s approach, LGBT people should focus on building relationships. After all, support for marriage equality more than doubles among people who know a gay person. The Pew Research Center reports that of the 14 percent of Americans who changed their mind and decided to support gay marriage in the last decade, 37 percent (the largest category) cited having “friends/family/acquaintances who are gay/lesbian” as the primary reason. The second largest group in this astounding shift, at 25 percent, said they became more tolerant, learned more and became more aware.

In 2011, I wrote an essay encouraging more cooperation and solidarity between the LGBT community and the Muslim community:

[In 2009], a Gallup poll demonstrated something the LGBTQ community has known for some time: People are significantly more inclined to oppose gay marriage if they do not know anyone who is gay. Similarly, a Time Magazine cover story featured revealing numbers that speak volumes about the correlation between positive relationships and civic support. Per their survey, 46 percent of Americans think Islam is more violent than other faiths and 61 percent oppose Park51, but only 37 percent even know a Muslim American. Another survey, by Pew, reported that 55 percent of Americans know “not very much” or “nothing at all” about Islam. The disconnect is clear: When only 37 percent of Americans know a Muslim American, and 55 percent claim to know very little or nothing about Islam, the negative stereotypes about the Muslim community go unchallenged.

The Muslim and LGBTQ communities face common challenges that stem from the same problem—that diverse communities don’t have robust and durable civic ties. This is why the Muslim and LGBTQ communities ought to be strong allies.

I continue to believe this, and Geller’s work isn’t helping. Geller, Spencer, and their supporters are wrong to try to pit the queer community against Muslims. Their efforts to force a wedge between us and the Muslim community are little more than fear-mongering — a tactic that has long been used to keep the LGBT community marginalized and oppressed.

Faisal Alam, a queer Muslim activist who founded the Al-Fatiha Foundation — an organization dedicated to advancing the cause of LGBT Muslims — recognizes this intersectionality.

“Pamela Geller’s attempts to create divisions between LGBT people and Muslim Americans is a losing tactic,” said Alam in a recent interview. “Muslims who are LGBT stand at the intersections of two marginalized communities. We know firsthand the devastating effects of both homophobia and Islamophobia. And we understand that LGBT and Muslim communities must stand together based on mutual respect and understanding.”

In that respect, Geller, Spencer and those who support them seem to have more in common with anti-LGBT fear-mongers than they do with LGBT people and Muslims who are trying to build respect and understanding. Their worldview is more in line with someone like conservative commentator Frank Turek of American Family Radio, who has said that LGBT people and Muslims “both hate Western civilization, both hate Judeo-Christian natural law values that our Constitution and particularly our Declaration of Independence were founded on.” We should oppose efforts to demonize Muslims as we do those demonizing queer people, as they ultimately share a common root.

by Anonymousreply 36805/25/2013

Reza Aslan agrees, and he describes a shift toward greater understanding and cooperation in the Muslim community.

“American Muslims — young American Muslims in particular — are starting to understand that unless they are willing to stand up for all the other oppressed communities in this country, including those discriminated against for their gender or sexuality, then no one will stand up for them,” said Aslan. “So far from there being a bond between Geller and the oppressed LGBT community, the bond [is] between the LGBT community and American Muslims — a community that is facing unprecedented hate and violence in the United States. My hope is that having someone like Pamela Geller trying to create this division will have the opposite effect: That it will bring these two communities, oppressed for different reasons, together to form a bond against all forms of bigotry.”

I share in that hope. So instead of donating to Geller’s wrongheaded campaign on Indiegogo, I encourage LGBT folks to consider making a donation to Muslims for Progressive Values, which is doing radical work to promote LGBT inclusion.

END ARTICLE

Let's stop allowing the bigots that have infiltrated Datalounge to turn this into some version of EDL. It's ugly and it's going to end up shutting this site down. This used to be a progressive board and bigots were never allowed.

by Anonymousreply 36905/25/2013

Trolldar R361/R365.

by Anonymousreply 37005/25/2013

Why can't freepers ever spell correctly?

by Anonymousreply 37105/25/2013

I live in a big city in the UK, in an area with a large muslim immigrant community. In some streets there has been such a case of "white flight" that white homeowners have been asked to sell their houses to families of people living nearby, without going through estate agents.

Historically the mainly Pakistani families have intergrated but the younger males are rejecting British customs more and more, and the women are encouraged/pressured to veil up and not speak English or speak to strangers. A playground I walk past is segregated - girls in veils play in one corner, little girls in headscarves and boys play in the rest of the park. I've seen old men walking down the street chatting while girls carry heavy shopping bags.

I've not witnessed much homophobia from the Pakistani community (the Somalis are better at that - they throw stones and call you queer but run off when you challenge them) but the genders segregation is more concerning to me.

by Anonymousreply 37205/25/2013

Let's see how the bigots respond to the excellent article I posted.

Bigots, begone! You aren't wanted or allowed here.

by Anonymousreply 37305/25/2013

Muslims men are forbidden to have any physical contact with women that are not members of their family. This is why Iran's president Ahmadinejad faces the possibility of suffering 75 lashes for daring to hug Hugo Chavez's mother on the Venezuelan president's funeral. Yeah, Muslims are NOT fucked up.

by Anonymousreply 37405/25/2013

[quote]I've not witnessed much homophobia from the Pakistani community (the Somalis are better at that - they throw stones and call you queer but run off when you challenge them)

Awful. Britain's collapse is complete.

by Anonymousreply 37505/25/2013

Tough to support a group like Muslims who celebrate American death, ESPECIALLY GAYS. Don't believe me Mary? I'll pay for your trip to the Middle East if you parade around like they do in Castro, and see how long before they cut your head off. They can go fuck themselves.

by Anonymousreply 37705/25/2013

Exactly. You hate Republicans because of their opinion on gay marriage, but support Muslims even though they want you dead. Hypocrites.

by Anonymousreply 37805/25/2013

[quote]Tough to support a group like Muslims who celebrate American death, ESPECIALLY GAYS. Don't believe me Mary? I'll pay for your trip to the Middle East if you parade around like they do in Castro, and see how long before they cut your head off. They can go fuck themselves.

Hear, hear. Have many of these gay Islam defenders have even been to an Islamic ghetto?

by Anonymousreply 37905/25/2013

[quote]Exactly. You hate Republicans because of their opinion on gay marriage, but support Muslims even though they want you dead. Hypocrites.

Again, right! But, these Islam defenders just avoid my questions.

by Anonymousreply 38005/25/2013

In a progressive society, how do you defend gender segregation and sexual orientation bigotry?

by Anonymousreply 38205/25/2013

Join me in F&F-ing all the pro-Muslim posts!

by Anonymousreply 38305/25/2013

R381 sounds pretty angry.

by Anonymousreply 38405/25/2013

[quote]Join me in F&F-ing all the pro-Muslim posts!

Already doing it, R383!

[quote]In a progressive society, how do you defend gender segregation and sexual orientation bigotry?

One can't. Prepare for these Islam defenders to avoid your question.

by Anonymousreply 38605/25/2013

Respond to the article, hateful bigots!

That's right - you can't - because it exposes the fallacy of your monolithic Muslim boogeyman argument.

Trolls.

----------------------- And to the webmaster,

If this is honestly the direction you are happy to take DL, you are going to lose an untold number of DL regulars (authenticated and anonymous) in exchange for the bigots and intolerance you see above. Good luck with that. DL never tolerated bigotry before.

by Anonymousreply 38705/25/2013

R387, you are contradicting yourself. The article you posted say – “Of course, members of the LGBT community are right to be concerned about the dangers of religious extremism and totalitarianism — whether it is Christian, Muslim or any other expression. But demonizing another community won’t help reduce the influence of religious fundamentalism”

Radical Muslims = Islamists. That’s the group people in this thread have been speaking out against. That’s the politically correct phrase which even the moderate Muslims use to differentiate themselves from the radicals. On the other hand, you said that whoever says “Islamist” is a bigot.

So which one is it? what exactly are you trying to say? That there are no radical Muslims? That Islam does not instruct to take gays to the top of the highest building, push them and then stone them to death, just in case they didn’t die from the fall? That gays are not being tortured and killed in Muslim countries just for being gay?

I’m half Muslim myself, I know the religion and I know the radicals. All your posts are attacks on gays who express their worry about religious extremism which calls for their death. You sound like the biggest bigot here.

by Anonymousreply 38805/25/2013

You know that "Muslim defender" is actually anti-Muslim and trying to make others rally against his opposition.

I haven't fully formed an opinion on the matter yet, but it's obvious what they are trying to do.

by Anonymousreply 38905/25/2013

I think I'll go make a sandwich.

by Anonymousreply 39005/25/2013

I've been here many, many years and have witnessed every catagory of human interest and being you can think of get ripped up and down to shreds. Why should Islam, especially radical Islam, be treated differently here? If reading honest opinions contrary to your own leads you to melt down in a spitting rage, you have a problem.

by Anonymousreply 39105/25/2013

WHY THE FUCK do we have to put up with people who reflexively leap to defend islamic fundies? This thread should have had a few condemnations of the disgusting backward trash who murdered the man and the fundie ideas that motivate them. And that should be it. But instead we have about 400 posts because DL seems to think defense of these people is just fine. Why?

If a white man had beheaded a black man in in the US and made statements about "white power," do you think DL would allow people to spew defenses of him (with vicious attacks on other posters) in a 400 post thread? Fuck no.

by Anonymousreply 39205/25/2013

r376

[quote]Stop Trying to Split Gays and Muslims!

Well, it's hard to respond because I'm still laughing so hard at that!!!! When have "Islam and Gays" been together to begin with?

What a joke.

by Anonymousreply 39305/25/2013

[quote]But instead we have about 400 posts because DL seems to think defense of these people is just fine. Why?

No idea, R392.

by Anonymousreply 39405/25/2013

Fare much better, 305. Fare much better.

by Anonymousreply 39505/25/2013

I'm to the point that I loathe Muslims. Islam obviously isn't a religion of peace, and it's 100% anti-gay.

by Anonymousreply 39605/25/2013

[quote]I'm to the point that I loathe Muslims. Islam obviously isn't a religion of peace, and it's 100% anti-gay.

I couldn't agree more.

by Anonymousreply 39705/25/2013

R385 theres a guy changing servers and talking to himself. He is about as obvious as a red barn door. Very funny that he thinks he's fooling someone.

by Anonymousreply 39805/25/2013

Oops--it's R385 that's doing the talking.

by Anonymousreply 39905/25/2013

Nope, the rabid anti-muslim hater here is obviously talking to itself (I say it - because it's not human).

I guess the webmaster has allowed this sort of discourse to prevail.

The article above, though, pretty much outs them as the bigots they are. Pamela Gellar disciples essentially.

by Anonymousreply 40005/25/2013

[quote]Oops--it's [R385] that's doing the talking.

Wait, I'm R385, what do mean regarding me, R399?

by Anonymousreply 40105/25/2013

There is no defense of that gay-hating religion Islam. None.

by Anonymousreply 40205/25/2013

"Moderate Muslim" Is Not an Oxymoron Islamophobes believe there's something intrinsically incompatible about Muslims and free countries. They're wrong.

Lars Hedegaard is a Danish journalist who has made his name denouncing Islam, which he describes as "a totalitarian system of thought" whose adherents "rape their own children." Last month, someone showed up at his door with a gun and fired a shot that missed him.

It's just what you would expect of those crazy Muslims, isn't it? Except that in the aftermath, Hedegaard found Muslims across Denmark were conspicuously un-crazy. They did not applaud the assailant or excuse his motives. Instead, they condemned the attack and upheld Hedegaard's freedom to preach unhinged bigotry.

One group even rallied in Copenhagen to disavow such violence. A Dane whose family came from Afghanistan told The New York Times, "We don't defend Hedegaard's views but do defend his right to speak."

Oh, but consider what happened last year when a far-right group marched in front of Berlin mosques carrying signs with caricatures of Mohammed, which Muslims consider forbidden. Sure enough, a subsequent bombing was blamed on Muslims -- a bombing in Sudan. In Germany, however, imams asked the faithful to ignore the provocation, and they did.

These episodes raise the possibility that European (and American) Muslims are not as rabid as they are commonly portrayed by their most vehement critics. Remember the uproar in 2006 after a Danish newspaper published cartoons of Mohammed? There were riots by Muslims -- but in the Middle East and Africa, not Europe. When a German paper published the images, local Muslims responded with a shocking display of restraint.

This is the rule, not the exception. Muslim terrorism, which was expected to explode after 9/11, is slightly less common on the continent than kangaroos. In 2010, Europe had 249 documented terrorist attacks or plots, of which only three involved Muslims. In 2011, there were 174 such episodes -- with Muslims accounting for zero.

Same story on this side of the pond. A new report from the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University, the University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill and RTI International says, "For the second year in a row, there were no fatalities or injuries from Muslim-American terrorism." Since 9/11, it said, such terrorists have killed 33 people in the United States -- a poor showing compared to the 200-plus slain by right-wing extremists.

Of course, a group can be extreme and intolerant without engaging in outright slaughter of those it hates. Daniel Pipes, director of the Middle East Forum, claims, "A vast number of Muslims, those living in Europe and the Americas no less than those elsewhere, harbor an intense hostility to the West."

You can reach that conclusion only if you pay no attention to what ordinary Muslims say. Most bear as much resemblance to Pipes' lurid portrait as they do to Dolly Parton.

Muslim immigrants in France say they have more in common with French people in general than with people of their own religion or national origin. American Muslims are more likely than their neighbors to express contentment with the state of the country and with their own lives. "Muslims appear to be among the least disenchanted and most satisfied people in the West," concludes journalist Doug Saunders in his 2012 book, "The Myth of the Muslim Tide."

"Intense hostility," you would think, would breed support for terrorism. But with intense hostility scarce, so is sympathy for militants. Among Muslims in Germany, only 1 percent say "attacks on civilians are morally justified." Same with those in France.

Some 8 percent of American Muslims approve of such attacks in some cases -- which sounds high until you recall that 24 percent of all Americans say such attacks are "often or sometimes justified."

by Anonymousreply 40305/25/2013

If you hear someone in this country preaching violent resistance to the federal government or law enforcement, it's more likely to be a Texas secessionist than a fanatical follower of Islam. Across Western nations, writes Saunders, "support for violence and terrorism among Muslims is no higher than that of the general population, and in some cases it is lower."

The assumption among Islamophobes is that there is something intrinsically alien and incompatible about the presence of Muslims in free countries. In truth, they are not visibly different from other groups that have arrived with the mindset of the past and found themselves transformed into tolerant, loyal and law-abiding souls who value democracy and liberty.

Free societies have a way of doing that.

by Anonymousreply 40405/25/2013

Say hello to France. A Muslim in France did a copycat to UK today.

by Anonymousreply 40505/25/2013

Deplorable. The Muslim defending troll should be ashamed off himself. I haven't felt this outraged since I saw the "Empty Nests" episode of "The Golden Girls".

by Anonymousreply 40605/25/2013

The soldier bears a slight resemblance to the chap who played Ian on 'Shameless'.

by Anonymousreply 40705/26/2013

Sure R 57, thanks for reminding us of all the different ethnicities of the wonderful Muslims: Chechnians-Boston, Pakistanis slaughter Christians, Phillipino Catholics are routinely murdered, Somalian Muslim Pirates terrorizing the coast of Africa, Indonesian Hotel bombing, ethnic cleansing of Buddhists in Bangladesh, Coptic Christians slaughtered in Egypt... Religion of peace my ass.

by Anonymousreply 40805/26/2013

I don't see any Texas seccesionists lopping off people's heads in the middle of the street.

by Anonymousreply 40905/26/2013

Female suicide bomber, the widow of "two Islamic radicals, killed one, injured 18 in Russia, Dagestan region.

by Anonymousreply 41005/26/2013

One of the killers was brought up on TERROR charges in KENYA but was sent back to the UK!

by Anonymousreply 41105/26/2013

R408 seriously? What about the Buddhist in Burma ethnically cleansing the muslim population? Sarajevo, Charles Taylor Liberia muslim massacre in the 90s. Lets not forgot the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse and the countless incidents of American soldiers killing, raping afghan civilians. Terrorism comes in many forms, religions and cultures.

by Anonymousreply 41405/26/2013

It's a shame that Bastard in London didn't have his head blown off during the filming of that video. Hope he burns in hell.

by Anonymousreply 41505/26/2013

Agree, r402, and I'd add "female-hating, Western-Civilization-hating, art-hating, scientific-knowledge-hating, education-hating, modern-world-hating."

by Anonymousreply 41605/26/2013

African-Britons speak the Queen's English, r413. Serious answer.

by Anonymousreply 41705/26/2013

[quote]Do negroes in Britain speak Ebonics, or is that something that just happens in America? Thisis a serious question.

Round tones, Ms Lamont.

by Anonymousreply 41805/26/2013

EDL accidentally declares war on Narnia.

by Anonymousreply 41905/26/2013

Off course it was a Nigerian..

by Anonymousreply 42005/26/2013

R420 is a collectively fucked up ignoramus.

by Anonymousreply 42105/26/2013

r414 there's pockets here and there. Unfortunately, where there is a large concentration of Muslims, there is extremism and thus terrorist acts on the populace. Not all Muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.

by Anonymousreply 42205/26/2013

R422, what you're referring to as "pockets" is full-scale warfare or conflict. Most people killed in warfare or conflict or terrorism or violence over the past decade or so have probably been killed by US and allied troops or drones or as a result of turmoil created in the aftermath of US military action, and that tends to be people of Christian origin attacking Muslims. The Chechen wars in the 1990s also saw tens of thousands of Muslim civilians being killed as a result of actions of a primarily Christian military. Then there's also the war in the former Yugoslavia, which was primarily Christians trying to "ethnically cleanse" Muslims. That's not to justify the cold-blooded murder of people on the street by raving lunatics, but if you try and look at the "bigger picture" (not that I believe you ever will) then the picture becomes more complex. Also, there are the Muslims currently being attacked and killed by Buddhist monks and others in Sri Lanka and Burma at present, thrown out of their homes, etc. In parts of Burma the authorities have even imposed a 2-child limit per Muslim family!

What percentage of Muslims would you say are terrorists, then?

In other news, while thousands of screaming pure-blooded Catholic French paraded against marriage equality in France, a film about the love between two young lesbians, directed by a north-African Muslim immigrant to France, won best prize at Cannes.

The last images of Lee Rigby, the murdered soldier, alive, wearing his Help for Heroes sweater, were taken in his favourite doner kebab joint a couple of nights before he was killed.

"Yesterday, one member of staff at the shop was red eyed and still visibly upset after the death of the young soldier two days ago.

"Colleague Ali Ulu, 32, spoke warmly of the late Lee Rigby. He said: 'Lee was in here at least three times a week.

"'He was a really regular customer and he came in at lunchtime two days before he was murdered."

"'He ordered pizza and chips to take away. He would always stop and chat. He would talk about his young son and once showed us his picture. He was a really nice man and we are all still in a state of shock.'"

by Anonymousreply 42305/26/2013

So, Ali Ulu, a brit living in the UK, and worried about the war, cannot be openly tried since "it would send the wrong message" and possibly expose assistance from foreign countries???

Here's is my take- bombing via DRONE strikes that kill kid are accidentally "MURDER", but killing "the enemy" is good.

by Anonymousreply 42405/27/2013

Why doesn't the US (and UK, BZ, FR...) stop helping these countries.

Why isn't the general populace allowed to see where taxes are gone, who got what, which leader or bankster got the money, etc...?

Why did MI5 (the UK version of CIA/FBI) reach out to Tsarnaev 5 months ago and offer him a lucrative job and then cover it as "routine" after they murder him?

by Anonymousreply 42505/27/2013

R422, the largest terrorist organization in the world is the American military.

by Anonymousreply 42605/27/2013

R426-

I agree, but that is like saying Wal Mart is a big company.

Until we remove the power of the Feds to take money from us to give to the big banks that loan (at less than 2%) to big biz...we're fucked.

Big banks, Big corps, Big Rx, BIG military--- they ALL tell Obama (or Bush2.0 or Clinton, et al.) what to do, and he does whatever they want.

R425-

[quote]Why doesn't the US (and UK, BZ, FR...) stop helping these countries.

[quote]Why isn't the general populace allowed to see where taxes are gone, who got what, which leader or bankster got the money, etc...?

Our gov takes orders from the big boys, and they will never do ANYTHING that would hurt or embarrass them.

Just like people refuse to believe Obama (and his mom, dad, stepdad, grandmother and grandpa all worked for CIA front companies) is not "The Champion of the People!", some people will refuse to believe that the attacks in the MidEast by our military MIGHT result in blowback.

Until government powers, responsibilities and duties are radically devolved (AKA, ending DC) to the local level, this country will continue to slouch toward a debauched and dangerous Bethlehem...

by Anonymousreply 42705/27/2013

Scary but true, R426

by Anonymousreply 42805/27/2013

R424, why would Ali Ulu be tried for anything? He works in a kebab shop where he serves many British soldiers at the barracks across the road and is very upset at the murder of Lee Rigby. What "crime" do you believe he has allegedly committed?

by Anonymousreply 42905/27/2013

R426 and R428

So, shouldn't the head, and former heads, of such a terrorist organization be subjected to trial for war crimes?

It would make me happy to see Clinton, Bush and Obama do the "perp walk" as they were lead away to life in prison.

by Anonymousreply 43005/27/2013

When there are as few Muslims committing atrocities as there are gay men trying to "recruit" new homosexuals, then I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

by Anonymousreply 43105/27/2013
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