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The Portland fluoride debate

Today's the vote over whether to add fluoride to Portland's municipal water supply. Smugtown, USA, where people (rightly) sneer at climate-change deniers for ignoring science, is a hotbed of fluoride denial and general head-up-its-own-assism:

[quote]Some fluoride-favoring voters feel outdone. "I think they're ahead of us with stilt walkers and flame jugglers," said Shauna Ballo, a volunteer with Healthy Kids/Healthy Portland, which is campaigning for fluoride.

[quote]Many "No" activists say they oppose fluoridation because it represents lack of choice. "The government does not have the right to make a major medical decision for the public at large. That decision flies in the face of everything it means to be a Portlander," said Tacee Webb, who runs what she calls "an all-Gluten-Free Preschool."

by Anonymousreply 6105/23/2013

[quote]Many "No" activists say they oppose fluoridation because it represents lack of choice.

They dont sell bottled water there?

by Anonymousreply 105/21/2013

Flouride is a nasty drug. I filter it out of my drinking water, but I would vote against it if I had a choice.

by Anonymousreply 205/21/2013

R2 at link

by Anonymousreply 305/21/2013

R3 = stupid shit

by Anonymousreply 405/21/2013

Fluoride is a pesticide. The push to put into water was to find an alternative use as it was superseded by other pesticides. It doesn't kill mouth bacteria better than other solutions (like peroxide or rubbing alcohol).

by Anonymousreply 505/21/2013

Is this Portland, Maine or Portland, Oregon?

Maybe you could have noted that, OP. I realize I could click on the article, but why not just note it up front?

by Anonymousreply 605/21/2013

[quote]Many "No" activists say they oppose fluoridation because it represents lack of choice.

[quote]They dont sell bottled water there?

LOL!! You are hilarious, or stupid, but I'm guessing hilarious.

by Anonymousreply 705/21/2013

The Nazis used to put shitloads of it in the water at the concentration camps b/c it made people docile and stupid. It's a coal byproduct that is considered toxic waste but somehow those fuckers got us to PAY for it. Of course I'm crazy for noticing all of this but there's a reason nursery water and training toothpaste for kids has no fluoride in it.

by Anonymousreply 805/21/2013

wow, a whole lot of crazy in this thread, too bad no one here has any actual scientific training, or even knowledge

by Anonymousreply 905/21/2013

It is helpful for kids' teeth (and adults, for that matter) but I'm not sure the public knows what the long term effects of flouride in water might be to humans.

by Anonymousreply 1005/21/2013

[quote]Smugtown, USA

Fuck you, asshole.

by Anonymousreply 1105/21/2013

Of course they know. Fluoride poisoning has been known much longer than any potential benefits of fluoride.

by Anonymousreply 1205/21/2013

Fluoride = osteoparosis

by Anonymousreply 1305/21/2013

Kentucky fluoridates and has poor dental health.

The link is to a right-wing site, but it has some interesting information.

by Anonymousreply 1405/21/2013

R9, you may be part of the problem.

by Anonymousreply 1505/21/2013

Who cares?

I don't live in Portland. They can vote whichever way they want. It's their city, not mine.

Fluoride is readily available in toothpastes, mouthwashes and in drops. So people who want fluoride can easily get it. They're not going to catch tooth decay from someone else, so it's not like they're refusing to give their kids a vaccine.

by Anonymousreply 1605/21/2013

no one believes they can fly a commercial plane without training, do they? But everyone believes theyre an amateur scientist or physician when it suits them, when they feel compelled to invent conspiracies; people incapable of an empirical approach or rational thought sadly dont realize it.

NB R2 and R15 are the same.

by Anonymousreply 1705/21/2013

Flouride tin-hats are still a thing?

by Anonymousreply 1805/21/2013

R17, do you not understand that people don't trust scientists for a reason? Don't the most successful of your cronies work for Monsanto?

Neither of your posts says a damn thing. "Trust me. I'm a scientist. None of you gets to decide you're being poisoned unless I say you are." You have not refuted anything.

by Anonymousreply 1905/21/2013

[all posts by ham-fisted troll a removed.]

by Anonymousreply 2005/21/2013

"It is helpful for kids' teeth (and adults, for that matter)"

Yes, when it's put ON the teeth- not into your bloodstream and cells.

Fluoride is like jumping into a swimming pool of peroxide when you get a scrape.

by Anonymousreply 2105/21/2013

I voted no and dropped my ballot off yesterday.

I think there are other ways to get fluoride, I'd rather they leave the water alone. I'll bet it won't pass.

I grew up in Michigan. I think the town I grew up in was about the 5th city to add fluoride to the water (I believe Grand Rapids, MI was the first). I can not imagine that it did my brother and I much good, neither of us have room in our teeth for any more fillings.

I know my reasons are not based on any scientific facts but I have one vote and I used it the way I wanted.

by Anonymousreply 2205/21/2013

I've been reading and posting to the DL for over ten years, off and on. I really don't remember you crazy fuckers being welcome here before.

When did you infest the DL? Aren't there plenty of internet forums specifically for government conspiracy theorists?

Are you even gay? Do you gossip? Are you pointlessly bitchy?

Why are you here?

by Anonymousreply 2305/21/2013

Portland is also an anti-vax hotbed. I'm as liberal as you get, but when you've thrown in your lot with Dr. Jenny McCarthy and the John Birch Society under the guise of "progressivism," you've got worse problems than an infinitesimal amount of fluoride in the water... which already has chlorine, ammonia, sodium hydroxide and other additives in it.

by Anonymousreply 2405/21/2013

But why listen to SCIENTISTS when you can listen to SINGER/SONGWRITER EMPATHS?

[quote]My name is Fern Capella and I am a mother, activist, singer/songwriter, and empath living in Portland, Oregon. I am voting NO to adding hydrofluorosilicic acid to our precious water supply. I do not have the right to force medicate my neighbors, and neither do any of you. I am my son's single mother so I am the ONLY person who gets to make crucial medical decisions pertaining to my son's health and well being. I also do not choose to condescend to our "neediest populations" and think that they are any less capable of parenting their beloved children than I am. I don't want to ingest an industrial waste byproduct, and I don't want my children or my cats or my grandparents to either. If you want to fluoridate your family, have at it. If you have trouble paying for fluoride supplements and you feel they will better your life, talk to me. I will work something out for you, and we as a community can make it work for all who choose to ingest hydrofluorosilicic acid. I don't want to shower in it, I don't want to cook my soups in it, and I don't want to feed my cats it or water my garden with it. I have the right to have the water I have the way it is. You don't have the right to vote a medicine into my water supply.

by Anonymousreply 2505/21/2013

R9, please explain why fluoride is okay. I'd appreciate your insight. It's confusing--one side says it's evil and poison, the other says it's perfectly safe. It does help prevent cavities, no doubt about that, but is it safe enough to be ingested all the time?

by Anonymousreply 2605/21/2013

r5 and r8 must be joke posts because they are both full of shit. Even you idiots of DL must realize the ridiculousness of these "facts".

by Anonymousreply 2705/21/2013

26 replies and no mention of, "Tacee Webb, who runs what she calls "an all-Gluten-Free Preschool."

Portlandia at its best.

by Anonymousreply 2805/21/2013

[all posts by ham-fisted troll a removed.]

by Anonymousreply 2905/21/2013

Jesus Christ, R8. I've heard some stupid shit in my life but yours takes the cake.

Do you really think the Nazis wanted to make life easy for concentration camp inmates? Their greatest joy in life was to hope an inmate got out of line so they could beat them to death or shoot them. For them killing inmates was sport.

by Anonymousreply 3005/21/2013

fluoridation itself is a very simple process, and I fail to see how a fluoride ion in water could do everything theorists say it does. Granted other forms can be pretty nasty, like HF (hydrogen fluoride) which is highly caustic, but we're talking a billionth/trillionth of that amount, just enough F ions to replace the weaker calcium in the surface of teeth; like everything in chemistry, it's far more about proportion than anything else. Too much or too little of any element or food is enough to kill someone, without any conspiracy theories.

Above all you should always be suspicious of someone who uses the words "toxin/toxic" repeatedly, or tries to compare disproportionate compounds, like chlorinated pool water and hydrogen chloride, the dangerous acid. It has more to do with not understanding what happens at the biological/molecular level, and how important seemingly insignificant details are, like concentration, form (ion, salt, etc), and type of exposure. Incidentally, most of the HF found in human blood is directly traceable to teflon pans, make sure you're not using metal utensils!

Our bodies aren't as weak or easily manipulated as some people think, but they're not impervious either. They're incredibly complex and involve some chemistry we still haven't been able to beat in the lab; a living organism with many different systems can take a lot of abuse, just look at the diets of the obese.

by Anonymousreply 3105/21/2013

R31 was me

by Anonymousreply 3205/21/2013

R2 is right and the article is clearly biased. Portraying the pro-fluoride advocates as responsible and the anti-fluoride as thoughtless space cadets is not news, it's opinion and poor opinion.

I'd vote against it as well and am now looking to filter it out of my water. I hope the anti's win, because there are all sorts of ways to add fluoride if you mistakenly think you need it.

by Anonymousreply 3305/21/2013

Thank you R23. I was wondering the same things.

by Anonymousreply 3405/21/2013

[quote]I can not imagine that it did my brother and I much good, neither of us have room in our teeth for any more fillings.

Drinking fluoridated water alone won't prevent cavities. You still have to brush your teeth.

by Anonymousreply 3505/21/2013

The majority of the United Kingdom doesn't drink fluoridated water and they seem to do just fine.

by Anonymousreply 3605/21/2013

Fluoride is totally shady. Over time, it "stupifies". Look around.

by Anonymousreply 3705/21/2013

Is it the same loon posting this shit?

by Anonymousreply 3805/21/2013

Now you all see what we've had to put up with in Portland for the past few weeks - completely irrational hippie-dippie idiots. It's like having climate change deniers come out of the woodwork.

[quote]please explain why fluoride is okay.

How about the fact that every major American city has had fluoridated water for decades with no adverse health impact? You might as well as ask why toothpaste is okay.

by Anonymousreply 3905/21/2013

I don't think it stupefies but it does rot people's teeth and it does interfere with thyroid function. Even fluoride advocates admit a higher than should be acceptable number of people have adverse reactions to it.

by Anonymousreply 4005/21/2013

I think the pro-fluoride crowd doesn't understand it because they live in cities that fluoridate the water. One of the most researched side effects of fluoride is what it does to lower your IQ.

It also damages your thyroid, is a neurotoxin, and is well documented to cause non-lethal chronic diseases like fibromyalgia.

Portland does just fine without it and we have defeated it again, for the 4th time.

by Anonymousreply 4105/21/2013

[quote]Now you all see what we've had to put up with in Portland for the past few weeks - completely irrational hippie-dippie idiots. It's like having climate change deniers come out of the woodwork.

Exactly. It's like dealing with tea party idiots. And like the tea party idiots, they're going to get their way.

by Anonymousreply 4205/21/2013

Ladies and gentlemen, r41 is, unfortunately, Portland in a nutshell.

I'm surprised we didn't get the Morgellon's disease claim along with fibro.

by Anonymousreply 4305/21/2013

Well, thankfully Portland voters rejected fluoridation of the water. Some sanity prevails.

by Anonymousreply 4405/22/2013

Yesterday, voters in the Portland, Oregon area rejected a public health measure that's been widely adopted elsewhere in the US: water fluoridation. The treatment of drinking water with trace amounts of fluorine has a clear, positive effect in preventing tooth decay, and extensive studies (including some cases where water sources are naturally high in fluorine) have indicated that the levels used in water supplies have no adverse effects on health. But amidst talk that wouldn't seem entirely out of place in Dr. Strangelove, a measure that would have started water fluoridation failed by a 20-point margin.

The evidence in favor of fluoridation's benefits is so strong that the CDC has named it one of the greatest public health accomplishments of the past century. As a somewhat snarky Slate piece on the Oregon ballot measure notes, a huge number of medical organizations are on record as supporting it. In fact, the benefits were so clear that the Portland city council approved a plan to start adding fluorine to the city's water.

That, however, triggered enough outrage that the plan eventually ended up as a ballot measure. And the outrage lasted throughout the campaign over the ballot issue, by all accounts. Along with some civility, science itself went out the window. The campaign against fluoridation put up a website that said (contrary to evidence) that fluoridation doesn't actually work. It also plays a bit on chemophobia, calling the treatment an "industrial byproduct" and focusing on the tiny amounts of trace contaminants that come with fluorine. More generally, opponents focused on how pure the existing water supply was (without mentioning "purity of essence," though).

So for now, some of Oregon's residents will be doing without fluoridation. But the city has voted on the issue four times over the past 50 years, so it will invariably come up again.

by Anonymousreply 4505/22/2013

What I really want is the empirical data on the dental health of children in Portland. Are they the same as states that have fluoride in the water?

by Anonymousreply 4605/22/2013

Fluoride is industrial waste; it's not meant to be ingested. Read your toothpaste label; there's a very good reason why it says Do Not Swallow.

by Anonymousreply 4705/22/2013

{quote]Read your toothpaste label; there's a very good reason why it says Do Not Swallow.

It also could be the numerous detergents used in toothpaste, the same as those in your shampoo or laundry detergent, which you would also never ingest... but no, it must be that evil fluoride!

by Anonymousreply 4805/23/2013

It amazes me how so many of you trust our government without question.

How is it in the scope of responsibility of our government to make such decisions? And I'd be skeptical about the CDC's announcement of fluoride being one of the greatest accomplishments of the last 20years. Who's paying who to say what?

by Anonymousreply 4905/23/2013

R8, you are a blithering idiot. The "Nazis used fluoride in concentration camps is a debunked myth, moron.

by Anonymousreply 5005/23/2013

[quote]I think the pro-fluoride crowd doesn't understand it because they live in cities that fluoridate the water. One of the most researched side effects of fluoride is what it does to lower your IQ.

Yes, we all know urbanites are all drooling, feeble-brain morons. This is why major corporations, medical centers and private firms all fled for the countryside, and our urban college and universities shuttered their doors ages ago. Because of fluoride.

Meanwhile rural areas are an intellectual oasis, where knowledge, learning and scholarly pursuits reign supreme. Backwater hamlets, exurban outposts and far-flung trailer parks are just teeming with the best and fluoride-free brightest.

by Anonymousreply 5105/23/2013

It's only a matter of time until they ban dihydrogen monoxide.

by Anonymousreply 5205/23/2013

[quote]Read your toothpaste label; there's a very good reason why it says Do Not Swallow.

Yes: because its a hygienic aid, not food. You probably shouldn't eat a bar of soap or drink shampoo, either.

Do you know that American toothpaste has far less fluoride than the the same brands sold in countries without fluoridated water?

by Anonymousreply 5305/23/2013

R48, it is because of the fluoride, a waste byproduct not safe for human ingestion, and it's the reason why baby and small kid toothpaste has no fluoride as they cannot control spitting something poisonous out but swallow every damn thing that they put in their mouths. It is not safe to ingest. This is a well known fact. It does benefit the teeth of some people; it does not benefit the mouth tissues or other body tissues of anyone. Nearly all the American counties and townships and cities etc which put it in the water do so in concentrations which are way above the level known to be harmful to mammals, levels accepted globally as being dangerous for human health.

by Anonymousreply 5405/23/2013

[quote]Many "No" activists say they oppose fluoridation because it represents lack of choice. "The government does not have the right to make a major medical decision for the public at large.

Too late. The Supreme Court said last year that the government does indeed have that right: it's allowing the government to now REQUIRE you to have health insurance. No backtalk about it. The IRS has been charged with enforcing it and those who don't will receive fines.. After so many unpaid fines, guess what the IRS and the courts have the power to do?

So, all you people who supported the good, morally right stuff with the healthcare law got something you really weren't thinking about: the little piece of scary Orwellian America which is now in force.

Basic, common liberty in America is dead thanks to Republicans, Democrats and people who still seem to think they must pick one of those sides to be on.

by Anonymousreply 5505/23/2013

It's just awful, R55. Just awful.

by Anonymousreply 5605/23/2013

The Infuriating, Selfish Logic of Portland's Anti-Fluoride Vote

Bad news, Portland: You will not be benefiting from the sweet (well, tasteless) tooth-protecting power of fluoridated water in the near future. For the fourth time since 1956, Portland overwhelmingly voted down a measure to fluoridate its water like every other major city in America, because many Portlanders will throw a tantrum over anything that presents even a remote chance it will affect their idyllic lives.

The key point pushed by the anti-fluoride campaign, which was driven, as is practically everything in Portland, largely by liberals, was that the government wanted to force toxic chemicals into your body. At last night's victory party for the anti-fluoride campaign Clean Water Portland, they filled themselves with harmful chemicals—by their own choice.

From Willamette Week:

At the bar, a quartet of campaign supporters clink Champagne glasses with beer pints.

"Here's to unfluoridated beer!" says a man in a blue beret. "I was going to have to switch to drinking nothing but Ninkasi." [A very delicious Oregon beer -ed.]

At 9:15 pm, the party is getting merrier. The smell of marijuana is so thick in the sports bar that Mercury news editor Denis Theriault says he thought an actual skunk had arrived.

Hopefully the anti-fluoride folks have mellowed out after their victory, and all that pot. My post on Monday lamenting the fluoride controversy elicited a howling response from the anti-fluoridation side, upset with the admittedly broad brush with which I painted their camp. The media director of the Fluoride Action Network sent me a article about the science behind the anti-Fluoride movement. "Here's what science writing is supposed to look like on the topic of fluoridation," she said. "You are so way off base on this issue." I read it, and learned it was true that some scientists and experts think Fluoride is a cause for concern.

But it also true that the overwhelming majority of studies and experts agree fluoridated water is harmless and helpful. From Scientific American's Kyle Hill

Simply put, the refusal of water fluoridation doesn’t have any scientific support. A review on fluoride’s effect on IQ out of Harvard was waved about as the main scientific opposition, but has since been thoroughly refuted. Decades of studies in different cities in different states, involving millions of people, have concluded that there is a safe level of fluoride—one part-per-million—that can be added to water for enormous benefit to our teeth and oral health with little to no adverse effects.

[Cue one million ani-Fluoride campaigners in the comments linking to that Harvard study.]

by Anonymousreply 5705/23/2013

Nobody can say with 100% certainty that there are no risks to fluoride. There are risks to everything. The point of public health institutions like the CDC, the American Medical Association, and the American Dental Association is to use their giant budgets to weigh the risks and benefits of things like fluoride and act accordingly. All three are strongly in favor of fluoride. While the risks of fluoride presented by a handful of studies is uncertain, there is overwhelming evidence of its benefits—especially to the poor. (One study estimated communities that fluoridate their water save an average of up to $18.62 per per person per year.) Of course, to believe this you need to trust the scientists at the CDC more than the crusaders of the Fluoride Action Network. Many Portlanders obviously don't.

And that's the bigger concern than Portlanders' teeth rotting out. The logic that defeated fluoridation lies on the slippery slope down which one slides into the foul pit of anti-vaccination activism. This reasoning is fed above all by conspiratorial anti-government thinking. The Fluoridation Action Network argues that the CDC is enforcing a conspiracy of silence to maintain its own credibility. So did disgraced autism researcher Andrew Wakefield accuse British authorities of engaging in a conspiracy to "shield the government from exposure on the vaccine scandal" when he was banned from practicing medicine in the UK over his infamous bogus autism study.

No amount of studies will convince those campaigning against fluoride or vaccines, because the fluoride debate rests more on a clash of worldviews than studies: Anti-fluoride and anti-vaccination campaigners would undermine our public health system, which requires some trade-offs in personal autonomy for the greater good, in exchange for a libertarian wonderland in which every person gets exactly the healthcare they want, exactly when they want to have it. Only then will bureaucrats not have control over our bodies. Fluoride opponents in Portland frequently suggested the city's healthcare system should just be "fixed" so that everyone gets perfect and equal dental care, rendering fluoride unnecessary.

This would be great, but it's a world that will never exist. That large numbers of Portlanders apparently believe a widely-accepted public health measure to fill in the gaps of our imperfect healthcare system is a horrific affront to personal liberty says a lot about the city's disconnect from the real world, which I can say from experience is not just a Portlandia cliche. It is also an inherently reactionary position, and a close cousin to the dumb shrieks of death panels that marred the Obamacare debate. There many great things about Portland, Oregon, but the fluoride rejection shows its worst: the tendency among progressive of that city (and many others!) to reframe the decades-old politics of selfishness as some hyper-enlightened liberalism. So they rationalize getting exactly what they want, all of the time.

by Anonymousreply 5805/23/2013

Ridiculous R58. Fluoride was forced on the public without adequate scientific study (like most vaccines). The public health sector of the health care industry has long been just as corrupt as any other part, indeed more so, since it has always received less scrutiny.

by Anonymousreply 5905/23/2013

Just try getting a sales tax passed.

by Anonymousreply 6005/23/2013

Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk. Ice cream. Ice cream! [italic]Children's ice cream.[/italic]

You know when fluoridation first began? 1946. How does that coincide with your post-war socialist interests, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual. Certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core socialist works.

Fluoridation is the most monstrously conceived and dangerous socialist plot we have ever had to face.

by Anonymousreply 6105/23/2013
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