Freaky! They apparently were kept hidden as sex slaves for more than ten years.
There but for the grace of God go I. Oh well: back to my harp-playing.
Freaky! They apparently were kept hidden as sex slaves for more than ten years.
There but for the grace of God go I. Oh well: back to my harp-playing.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 594||05/16/2013|
The captor could be three brothers.
Anyway, sick, sick, sick...
I wonder why we can't just use the death penalty in this case? Why house these evil individuals in cell blocks that shelter them from the general population?
Hey, the victims didn't get any sheltering from them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 1||05/07/2013|
Weird, weird news.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 3||05/07/2013|
And the one really striking common factor in all these abduction/rape stories is that the perps are all men, and the victims all young, some even children.
Seriously, WTF is wrong with these guys?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 4||05/07/2013|
I'm not familiar with the story, can someone provide a bit of background?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 5||05/07/2013|
One of the women gave birth to at least one child while held captive. Like the case in N. Cal where the girl was kidnapped around Truckee or Lake Tahoe and was kept captive for over a decade in Antioch. I forgot her name.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 6||05/07/2013|
I want to know what went on for those 10 years, were they sex slaves?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 7||05/07/2013|
Have you noticed(maybe it's just the bias of my local news) that the anchors seem to be giddy at the unfortunate stereotype gentleman who leads this news item each time it comes on? And I am so NOT black, but it kinda bugs me that they're exploiting him in a smug way.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 8||05/07/2013|
You'd think Ohio's economic depression would put an end to this sort of thing.
"Please, Boss, don't lay me off. I have three sex slaves in my basement to support!"
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 9||05/07/2013|
Gawker has a good piece here, complete with 911 calls and a couple of amazing interviews with Charles Ramsey, the man who rescued Berry:
Three Women Missing for 10 Years Rescued From Cleveland Home
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 11||05/07/2013|
Even if down the road someone answers all of your questions, You'll probably continue to blame the victims, R10.
If you weren't there, you don't know what went on.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 12||05/07/2013|
One of the reports I've read mentioned chains hanging from the ceiling. But with the way the media has been reporting simple details lately you never know what the case is.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 13||05/07/2013|
Next season on Law and Order SVU...
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 14||05/07/2013|
Via Gawker: [quote]Sylvia Browne won't be happy to hear about this.
[quote]Sylvia Browne tells a mother that her missing daughter is dead. At around 7:45pm on April 21 2003 (the day before her 17th birthday), Amanda Berry left her job at a Cleveland area Burger King. She called her mother on her cell phone, told her that she had gotten a ride, and would call right back. She has not been seen since. Nearly a year and a half later, Louwana Miller (Amanda's mother) appeared on an episode of the Montel Williams show to ask Sylvia Browne what happened to her daughter.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 15||05/07/2013|
R10, you are too stupid to live. Please die in a grease fire.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 16||05/07/2013|
If the captor is contentious, R10 it shouldn't be hard to imaging how three men could systematically keep three women captive for that long (I say men/women only to emphasize the physical strength advantage).
Locks, soundproofing, shifts watching, chains, surveillance. I think you're underestimating the sick ingenuity of the captors. Perhaps they even killed another woman to make an example of what would happen if they tried to escape.
Another great escape to rival Jaycee's rescue.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 17||05/07/2013|
My gouty toe is more psychic than that hideous hack Sylvia. And those who listen to her are less gullible than my rotting liver.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 18||05/07/2013|
Thanks for answering, r17. I'm just trying to understand it fully.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 19||05/07/2013|
R18, She did the same thing to Shawn Hornbeck's parents - said he was dead. She needs to stop her utter nonsense.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 20||05/07/2013|
I don't see what's so difficult about comprehending that being chained to the basement rafters while being guarded by three men would inhibit escape.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 21||05/07/2013|
from the description of their escape, what with all three of them screaming and bolting from their captors' house, it sounds like they must have been chained all this time and waiting for any opportunity to make a dash for freedom.
I hope their captors/rapists get the death sentence.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 22||05/07/2013|
It is almost always men kidnapping and keeping women. Almost. I remember reading about a family kidnapping and keeping men on a farm as slave labor but pervs imprisoning women is much more common.
It makes me wonder, again, how many missing women over the years have lived and died in situations like this one?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 23||05/07/2013|
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 24||05/07/2013|
W&W for R25.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 26||05/07/2013|
I find these types of stories to be very, very depressing.
I am not pro-death penalty, but this is one of those cases where they deserve it. Would they even be considered for the death penalty if the victims are alive?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 27||05/07/2013|
fucked up, porn addicts
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 30||05/07/2013|
I think if you are around sickness enough it can eventually infect you especially if it's family. What they think and do, if they are dominant, can become your reality and you just fall in line if you are weak or afraid.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 31||05/07/2013|
R10, I don't know much about the case, but I'm willing to bet that the women had Stockholm Syndrome. That's when victims begin to empathize/sympathize with their captors. A lot of hostages report developing positive feelings toward their captors.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 32||05/07/2013|
If they screaming and trying to run out the door, it suggests a rare chance to escape and they were probably chained or constantly threatened.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 33||05/07/2013|
I agree, R21.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 34||05/07/2013|
[quote]"I knew something was wrong when a little pretty white girl ran into a black man's arms. Something was wrong here. Dead giveaway. Either she was homeless, or she had problems. That's the only reason she'd run to a Black man"
-Charles Ramsey the Black man who rescued them telling the unfortunate TRUTH.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 35||05/07/2013|
She was abducted for 10 years, but he wants to make it about him.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 36||05/07/2013|
It was only one woman who was screaming and kicking though? She and her daughter got out. And the other two women were freed by the police.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 37||05/07/2013|
I think it's more remarkable (and a testament to their resilience) that the women didn't succumb to hopelessness after all that time in captivity. That they could rally and run is just so great and bodes well for their recovery.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 38||05/07/2013|
Yeah, but do you ever really recover from 10 years of that. And now the media will want to exploit them, too.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 39||05/07/2013|
r39, Elizabeth Smart seems to have recovered. She had/has family support and has turned her experience into something that helps other people (both of which seem to be key). I hope these girls/women can rally and have great lives. I hope they get A LOT of support.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 41||05/07/2013|
No, I don't think they ever fully recover from captivity, but at least it's over.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 42||05/07/2013|
The majority of all crimes (of every type) are committed by men, R28. There's nothing particularly special about holding young girls hostage and torturing them, in that sense.
Elizabeth Smart and Jaycee Duggard were both kidnapped by male/female couples. Young Vermont mom Melissa Jenkins was recently lured, tortured, and murdered by a male/female couple. Sylvia Likins was one of America's first (and still one of the very the worst) sensational teen girl imprison-and-torture cases. The mastermind and ringleader behind that bloody horror was a scary woman by the name of Gertrude Baniszewski.
Yes, men are statistically much more likely to commit crime than women. There's no debating that - and there's no excuse or justification for it. What sets this particular type of sick crime apart isn't that it's man thing (or a woman thing) - it's an *evil* thing.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 43||05/07/2013|
I hope she is doing well, R41, but do we really know how someone else really feels inside? I hope these women get lots of support and time to themselves and left alone from the media.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 44||05/07/2013|
R41, Elizabeth Smart was only missing for less than a year. These women were held captive 10 years. The world has changed dramatically since then. Not to mention a decade of whatever they had to put up with.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 45||05/07/2013|
R40, Karla Homolka was working in conjuction with her sick fuck of a husband who was commuting violent rapes long before he met her. Homolka didnt have a record before that, although I do think she's psychotic and deserves the death penalty.
Not only is it much rarer for a woman to commit this type of crime, but the number who commit it for their own part and not working in conjunction with a male partner, are almost infinitesimal.
The percentage of men who commit crimes like this are also a small percentage of the male species, but let's not pretend women commit that type of crime in comparable numbers. That is laughable and is to have your head in the sand.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 46||05/07/2013|
Jaycee Duggard has recovered amazingly - and she even bore two of her captor's children which is almost unthinkable. Her interview on ABC was awe-inspiring.
I think for some of these people they have been through such extreme hell and confinement that in a bizarre way they end up with a better and more natural ability to appreciate the good things we tend to take for granted once they get free.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 47||05/07/2013|
Commuting = committing
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 49||05/07/2013|
Really depends on the person, R47, and natural resilience. And we don't know if Jaycee would not have been better without the incident. And we don't know what lies in the future.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 50||05/07/2013|
[quote] those 3 black brothers
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 51||05/07/2013|
I hope the media leave them alone. They have enough to cope with w/o those vultures.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 52||05/07/2013|
They were Hispanic r48 but thanks for helping to perpetuate the idea of Black men as the epitome of the criminal element. Hasn't been enough of that for the last 300 years or so.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 53||05/07/2013|
Lauryn, that you @ R53 / R35? Judge told you stay off the internet, girl!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 55||05/07/2013|
R10, the captors knew everyone in the neighborhood and probably knew who the victims' families were. All the captors would have to do to prevent any escape attempt would be to threaten the victims' families. And that is probably what happened in this case.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 56||05/07/2013|
I agree R54, I just don't want to give the impression that if you struggle after that level of trauma you are weak or not trying hard enough.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 57||05/07/2013|
They could've drugged them and/or threatened them with each other too. If they were kept together in the same part of the house,during those ten years, they bonded. So the kidnappers could use coercion and emotional blackmail to keep them in line.
The one good thing about this is that one girl was 20 and the other was 17. The youngest one was 14. The older ones may have less problems re-adjusting than the youngest. One sad development, that one girl's mother died about 7 years ago. She never stopped looking for her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 58||05/07/2013|
the mother died of as close to a literal broken heart as one can have....
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 59||05/07/2013|
[quote]Yes, because there are no sick and sadistic women.
Of course there are sick and sadistic women, however they're a small minority of sick and sadistic men.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 60||05/07/2013|
I don't understand why some of you can't fathom how difficult it would be for someone in this situation to escape. Think about it.. if you're one of them and you're most likely chained in a basement, sick and weak from malnourishment, probably in a sound proof environment, and basically under lock and key? Yeah, you go and figure a way out of that.
I believe that in this circumstance, the doors to the house were such that you needed a key to get in/out. The guy that helped the girl said the door would only open enough to let a hand through. He had to kick it and force it open enough for her to get out and run.
Additionally, anyone who says they don't see how a neighbor would have heard something gone... even if they did hear screaming, how often do neighbors actually get involved? A lot of times they figure a domestic dispute is none of their business. Hell, look at Jeffrey Dahmer.
And anyone remember that one guy that kept his daughter, and the kids she had as result of her using her as his sex slave, in his basement and the entire time his wife and family were living above them and had no idea she was down there?
When you're a sick fuck like this, you find ways to get away with shit. Now just imagine that this situation isn't even the worst of what's going on in the world. Someone out there, is stuck in an even sicker, more gruesome situation, and no one knows about it.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 61||05/07/2013|
*and the kids she had as a result of him using her as his sex slave.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 62||05/07/2013|
[quote] Someone out there, is stuck in an even sicker, more gruesome situation, and no one knows about it.
That gave me chills, R61.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 63||05/07/2013|
The latest I've seen this morning (I'm in CA) is Gina DeJesus' brother says he and his family knew Ariel the Kidnapper back when his sister was taken. He hasn't seen him for ten years.
A neighbor who knows Ariel says his girlfriend walked past the Kidnap house one night and saw a young woman and a baby pounding on the window and screaming. She went to his house, crying, insisting that he call the police. The police came, pounded on the door, no one answered and they left.
The same neighbor says that the retirement home behind Ariel the Kidnapper's house saw three men in the back yard leading around three naked women on leashes, like dogs. The seniors called the police but there weren't details on what happened when the police got there.
Same neighbor saw Ariel the Kidnapper on Sunday. He was at a park with the little girl he rape-fathered.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 64||05/07/2013|
R63. Yeah, it freaks me out. You never really know what's going on with people and of course when you hear about this stuff, it's always the neighbor you'd never expect. It's hard to wrap your mind around the fact that sick people like this come up with things that most people can't imagine. It makes me nauseous thinking about victims who are suffering in ways we'll never know about.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 65||05/07/2013|
I also read that Ariel's son wrote about one of the victim's in his college paper and that someone by the same name as Ariel, wrote a piece in the paper about how one of the victim's disappearance changed the neighborhood... they were still trying to determine if that was someone else who happened to have the same name as Ariel, or if it was Ariel himself who wrote that piece.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 66||05/07/2013|
[quote]the mother died of as close to a literal broken heart as one can have....
That hack Sylvia Browne told Amanda Berry's mom in 2004 that her daughter was dead. Not probably. Definitely. Bitch.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 67||05/07/2013|
I still can't believe that just two days ago these women were still being held captive. I think about what I did over the weekend and to think they were in their situation then, unsure of when help would come. If ever. They probably didn't think they would escape this week. Amanda Berry just saw a chance and took it.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 68||05/07/2013|
R64's details are so disturbing and sad. At least three missed opportunities to free them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 71||05/07/2013|
Wasn't Elizabeth Smart the one who DIDN'T get therapy or counseling after her ordeal?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 72||05/07/2013|
The three women were always chained up. The little girl, however, was free to run around the house with "daddy".
"Mommy" convinced her daughter to free her when "Daddy" was away. Probably told her where to find the key.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 73||05/07/2013|
Very good theory, R73.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 74||05/07/2013|
I agree, R73, that seems the most likely chain of events. The other two women were still confined or chained up in some way when the police got there and freed them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 75||05/07/2013|
Too bad Roger Corman doesn't make exploitation movies for theaters anymore - this sounds like a perfect b-movie sexploitationer!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 76||05/07/2013|
"I am not pro-death penalty, but this is one of those cases where they deserve it. Would they even be considered for the death penalty if the victims are alive?"
Funny how people say they don't believe in the death penalty but post freeper shit like this. This isn't Iran or Saudi Arabia - we don't execute people who did not commit murder.
"She seems like damaged goods, too chipper yet dead eyes."
She seems like a nice young woman. Calling her damaged goods makes you seem like a total asshole. She doesn't have "dead eyes" either - you're projecting.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 77||05/07/2013|
How is that "freeper"? Do you think abducting, imprisoning and raping people is progressive?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 78||05/07/2013|
I disagree, R77. The Smart girl has "dead eyes" to me too. She's a nice girl who went through a terrible ordeal and it shows in her eyes. It shows in her affect as well, this is not a surprise.
Nobody walks away from this sort of thing without a huge amount of trauma. Smart was held captive and raped for a year. The girls they found in Cleveland have been held and raped for 10-12 years. The Dugard girl was held and raped for 18 years.
All of them have been massively damaged by this.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 80||05/07/2013|
R64's post confirms my initial suspicions about the main captor --that he is some kind of fucked up dom who wanted a BDSM lifestyle with non-consenting girls/women. There's a lot of douchebags like that in that lifestyle, men who don't want consenting submissives. Would love to hear Magdalene's views on those douchebags.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 81||05/07/2013|
So let's give a cheer for the BLACK MAN who rescued the girl and her child then called the cops.
HE is a HERO.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 82||05/07/2013|
Charles Ramsey is first a hero for saving their lives.
He's then also a hero for giving the world:
"You got some big testicles to pull this off, bro."
"I barbecue with this dude. We eat ribs and listen to Salsa music and what not."
"Bro, I knew something was wrong when a little pretty white girl ran into a black man's arms. Something is wrong here. Dead give away. Either she homeless or she got problems. Only reason she run into a black man's arms!"
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 83||05/07/2013|
[quote] The Smart girl has "dead eyes" to me too.
Well, she is a Mormon.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 84||05/07/2013|
How many men lived in the house? It isn't quite clear to me.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 85||05/07/2013|
I think reports are that there were 3.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 86||05/07/2013|
Kidnapping, False Imprisonment and Rape.
With a rape charge for every single time they had sex with those girls in the last 10 years. 5 times a year x 10 years = 50 counts of rape. And you know it was a HELL of a lot more than that.
They are NEVER getting out of prison.
And people like these guys don't live long in prison. They'll be taken out by other prisoners.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 87||05/07/2013|
Is r79 for real?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 88||05/07/2013|
r4 most, if not all, of those stories also involve a woman/wife perpetrator too. See Colleen Stan.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 89||05/07/2013|
Not EVEN funny, r90.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 91||05/07/2013|
Here's the NYTimes break down of the story so far. This bastard drove a school bus! My guess is the child he farthered would have been his next victim, that's why the mother made a break for it now.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 92||05/07/2013|
[quote]I also read that Ariel's son wrote about one of the victim's in his college paper and that someone by the same name as Ariel, wrote a piece in the paper about how one of the victim's disappearance changed the neighborhood... they were still trying to determine if that was someone else who happened to have the same name as Ariel, or if it was Ariel himself who wrote that piece.
This was determined last night. See the Gawker link above. It was written by his son when he was a student reporter at Bowling Green State. He now goes by the name Anthony. His comments are at the link.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 93||05/07/2013|
[quote]Martin Flask, the director of public safety in Cleveland, said... there was no record any of the neighbors, bystanders or other witnesses or anyone else had ever called about the women in relation to the house where they were eventually found.
This doesn't quite fit with the accounts from the woman passing by and the senior citizen's home. (Though the latter story seems a bit out there. Would they have taken the women out to the yard in full view?)
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 94||05/07/2013|
Coming in Sept. 2013: Survivor: Cleveland
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 95||05/07/2013|
Well didn't Jaycees captors (or was it Elizabeth's) that took her out repeatedly in broad daylight? People like that get to the point where they think they can do anything and not get caught.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 96||05/07/2013|
Elizabeth's captors took her out in broad daylight. They covered her head and face with a veil, though. I think a witness or two reported the couple and a young girl but I can't remember if they said she resembled Smart.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 97||05/07/2013|
What's on their AT&T flip phones?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 98||05/07/2013|
The 911 operator sucks out loud.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 99||05/07/2013|
Unusual for a pedophile to keep the girls as they grow up and not to replace them with new ones.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 100||05/07/2013|
Yeah I'm wondering if they're going to have to explain why the operator worked so quickly to get her off the phone.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 101||05/07/2013|
That 911 operator was terrible. Needs some more training.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 102||05/07/2013|
Maybe they were overheard talking about bringing a new one in and that gave Amanda extra motive.
It's an episode of Criminal Minds minus murder and torture. The investigators will be combing through missing persons reports going back a few decades and checking out the back yard for bones.
Cleveland recently had a serial killer who operated a "House of Horrors" (clever local press) only a few miles away where about a dozen women were buried in the back yard. Those victims were highly vulnerable -- drug addicts, prostitutes, and homeless.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 103||05/07/2013|
If only they'd been pretty blonde girls, Nancy Grace might have reported something about them before they were found.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 104||05/07/2013|
dude saying elizabeth smart is damaged goods... no shit. why u point it out like that? u must be one of those types who survives atrocity completely unscathed.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 105||05/07/2013|
they tryin get out i tryin get in
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 106||05/07/2013|
More reports of the police ignoring complaints.:
[quote]Elsie Cintron, who lives three houses away, said her daughter once saw a naked woman crawling on her hands and knees in the backyard several years ago and called police. "But they didn't take it seriously," she said.
[quote]Another neighbor, Israel Lugo, said he heard pounding on some of the doors of Castro's house, which had plastic bags on the windows, in November 2011. Lugo said officers knocked on the front door, but no one answered. "They walked to side of the house and then left," he said.
Up to five pregnancies being reported, disturbed dirt in the backyard:
[quote]WKYC-TV, quoting unidentified police sources, reported Tuesday that the suspects allegedly forced the women to have sex, resulting in up to five pregnancies.
[quote]WKYC's Tom Meyer quoted one of the sources as saying the captors would beat the pregnant girls. Two sources are quoted as saying the babies did not survive.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 107||05/07/2013|
That 911 operator is an asshole!!! You know she needs a cunt-punt. Halle Berry should have been working her shift.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 108||05/07/2013|
[quote] That 911 operator was terrible. Needs some more training.
It was Halle Berry
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 109||05/07/2013|
The guy was bold:
[quote] Just last month a vigil was held to mark the ninth anniversary of DeJesus' disappearance. Anthony Quiros, 24, who grew up next door to the house where the women were found, said bus driver Ariel Castro had been an onlooker as police dug up a Cleveland lot looking for remains in the case on a tip that proved false. "He also came to a vigil and acted as if nothing was wrong," said Quiros. He said he saw Castro comforting DeJesus's mother about a year ago.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 110||05/07/2013|
ugh, this story is getting even more depressing
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 111||05/07/2013|
[quote]He said he saw Castro comforting DeJesus's mother about a year ago.
What a fucking sociopath. Lethal injection is too kind. Give him the chair.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 113||05/07/2013|
Here's an enlarged version of the hospital photo with Amanda Berry and her sister. At first, I thought she had an eyebrow piercing, but the enlarged version seems to show some very nasty scarring over her left eye. That was one hell of a beating
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 114||05/07/2013|
So much evil in this world.
Of course the defense attorneys will rehabilitate their character and point the fingers directly at the "willing" captives.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 115||05/07/2013|
They weren't pedophiles. They wanted to control and dominate the pretty girls in the neighborhood.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 117||05/07/2013|
You are a bitter idiot, r116.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 118||05/07/2013|
The only big things to happen have been Facebook and the disheartening continued rise of 'unscripted' TV.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 119||05/07/2013|
I wanna be a sex slave!!!!!!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 120||05/07/2013|
Anderson Cooper is in Cleveland to cover this story.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 121||05/07/2013|
Have you seen pics of the guys, R120? No you don't. All three of them are dumps ugs. Seriously. Nothing remotely cute about them at all. They look like they smell. Oh, what those poor girls must have gone through.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 122||05/07/2013|
...and they are uncut.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 123||05/07/2013|
3 Brothers. 3 Girls.
A "wife" for each of them.
You find one you like, club her over the head, and drag her home by the hair.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 124||05/07/2013|
Proof that uncut men are dangerous!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 126||05/07/2013|
[quote]Even if down the road someone answers all of your questions, You'll probably continue to blame the victims, [R10].
I don't think asking why it took so long to escape is "blaming the victim." Blaming them would mean concluding they were at fault, and the brothers weren't. No one believes the brothers weren't at fault.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 127||05/07/2013|
No but it gives the impression that you might think they are partially to blame for not escaping sooner.
Do you realize that most people in circumstances like this DONT escape? Do you realize the majority of victims like this, you don't even know about because they're never heard from again?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 128||05/07/2013|
The little girl is 6 years old.
The PERFECT age to be talked into bringing mommy "the key".
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 129||05/07/2013|
r128, I don't quite understand you. I feel perfect sympathy for these poor girls but I DO wonder why they weren't able to escape earlier. I'm not blaming them, I'm wondering what the perps did to make escape so difficult.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 130||05/07/2013|
[quote]I wanna be a sex slave!!!!!!
I hope you get your wish.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 131||05/07/2013|
R130 - If the vast majority of people who were abducted, imprisoned, and terrorized physically, sexually and emotionally never escape, why do you think these girls were able to or should have?
I reckon most of the people (i.e. women) who have these horrible things happen to them are dumped in fields, rivers, or the wilderness. Some remains are found and some never are. Why do you think those poor women should/could have had the capacity to escape sexual sadists, men who are larger and more powerful than they are, who have dedicated their lives and psyches to exercising power over women and damaging them? Do you think it didn't occur to them that escaping might be the only way to preserve their lives, but it was just FUCKING IMPOSSIBLE?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 132||05/07/2013|
Most murders are never solved.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 133||05/07/2013|
Most murders are never even discovered
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 134||05/07/2013|
I agree, R130. Asking questions doesn't imply anything. I want to know as well but that has nothing to do with blaming them. It's not ike I think they were lazy.
In fact, the answers may lead to more charges against the brothers. Did they threaten to hurt or kill the little girl to keep them in line. Maybe they weren't held in a room or location where they could freely talk to each other - the ultimate cubicle.
I want to know why they all were taken from that one street - Lorraine. And was it well known that they were all taken from that street by the time the 3rd girl went missing? CCTV cameras anyone?
Some people never want to learn.
I do worry though that details will be revealed in a media frenzy that could be painfully invasive of these girls' privacy and possibly stigmatize these girls. The media has no respect for victims as long as they can make money off them.
I feel even more terrible for the victim whose mother died while she was in captivity. That would make me angrier than all the abuse you could inflict on me - that my mother didn't get to die in peace knowing I was safe and that I was robbed of ever seeing my mother again. I wouldn't blame her if she killed the fucker.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 135||05/07/2013|
Uncut guys are gross!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 137||05/07/2013|
always had plans on gettin out... fuckers kept me chained
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 138||05/07/2013|
Did that 6yr old child go to school? The houses are close together, surely if they screamed, they could be heard? So sad, hope they find peace in the near future.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 139||05/07/2013|
I grew up in this neighborhood as a child and it was horrible then. It was close to downtown and men would come there during lunch hour dressed in their suits and try to pull us children into the car. Once I saw a flashy red car that I had saw a classmate stumble out of pulling up his pants and crying and the man opened the passenger door and was telling my friend's little brother (who was maybe 4 or 5) that his mother had sent him to pick him up, that she was sick and he needed to take him to her at the hospital. I ran up to the car and pulled the little boy away and screamed for the guy to get out of there. I was maybe 6, but very proud of myself. Of course, I had been molested numerous times living in that hell hole, but my wonderful mother told me when I was 4 or 5 if she ever found out I had been molested she would have to leave home and I would never see her again.... one way not to be bothered with being told anything unpleasant. I remembered that conversation in therapy many years later, but mom gets livid at being reminded of it. But the neighborhood was impoverished and full of mentally ill people. Weird behaviors did NOT stand out.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 141||05/07/2013|
In defense of R10:
It's not that it's difficult to comprehend how the women didn't escape, it's that it's too difficult to think about the reality of the situation.
I mean, who wants to face the simple truth that ANY of us could be in that situation? Any of us could be overpowered, captured, tortured, or even murdered, and there isn't a lot we could do to stop it.
Who wants to think about that? Better to assume that the victims did something wrong; that if we were in that situation, we'd be able to quickly escape with minimal harm.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 142||05/07/2013|
sounds very depressing and a bad place especially for kids, R141
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 143||05/07/2013|
"most, if not all, of those stories also involve a woman/wife perpetrator too. See Colleen Stan."
Only in your imagination. Stop trying to blame women for the shit men do.
"The Smart girl has "dead eyes" to me too. She's a nice girl who went through a terrible ordeal and it shows in her eyes. It shows in her affect as well, this is not a surprise."
Man, the posters here couldn't be meaner and dumber. She's a normal girl. Stop being mean and calling her damaged. You idiots think you're "psychic" like Sylvia Browne and can tell all about a person by looking at her eyes. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Her affect is totally normal, also.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 145||05/07/2013|
Are there any hidden people on DL?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 146||05/07/2013|
I don't know if R141 is for real or not, but it is exactly that type of neighborhood, R144. Check out James Renner's true crime book The Serial Killer's Apprentice about the underbelly of Cleveland with emphasis on this neighborhood. It's also where Cookie Thomas got shot.
Any reaction today from Ashton or Demi? In their Twitter heydey, Gina's case was one of their initial causes-celebres.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 147||05/07/2013|
When will parents be able to put microchips in their children to track them? If I had small children, and it was available, I would do it in a heartbeat
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 148||05/07/2013|
Microchips like pets? Those only deliver information to a scanning devise like a bar code at the supermarket. It doesn't send out a GPS or tracing signal or anything like that.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 149||05/07/2013|
R135, the victims' right to privacy outweighs your desire to know.
R139, the child did not exist on any official records. A neighbor reported seeing the child in a window and she knew a child didn't belong there. She called the police, who knocked on the door, walked around the side of the house and then left. Voila, the child did not exist.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 150||05/07/2013|
I wonder how far away that is, R148. A friend ran the Chicago Marathon several years ago. She was given something to put on her shoe that contained a chip that allowed the race officials (and maybe other people?) to track her movement. It was within a limited area and I don't know how it was measured, etc. It seems with increasing wifi coverage, it'll become possible. Is it some clever programming and a few apps away?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 151||05/07/2013|
Agree it's possible, R151. It may take some time however to find a device that is on one hand durable and self-contained enough to last a lifetime in the body and on the other hand safe enough to have in your body transmitting signals for a lifetime. Any time a device is transmitting like that there is the potential for cellular/DNA disruption/mutations (which often manifests as cancer).
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 152||05/07/2013|
The oldest girl said that when she 1st got there, a another girl was already being held in the house.
Someone wrote RIP on the basement wall.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 153||05/07/2013|
Get Bill O'reilly on the case he can tell us how much fun the women were having...
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 154||05/07/2013|
One of the creepy things about an implanted chip would be if a kidnapper tried to cut it out.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 155||05/07/2013|
Maybe it could be activated in the event of the emergency and not transmit location continuously, R152. Ha. Maybe I'm living in a Jetsons world.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 156||05/07/2013|
[quote] The oldest girl said that when she 1st got there, a another girl was already being held in the house. Someone wrote RIP on the basement wall.
Unfortunately, that may have been Ashley Summers.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 157||05/07/2013|
Well, this could explain why there wasn't an escape. If you disobey, you get replaced.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 158||05/07/2013|
R157, I believe Ashley went missing in 2007. Michele Knight (the oldest kidnapping victim) was kidnapped in 2002.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 159||05/07/2013|
Also, they tell the victims they will kill their whole family if they try to escape.
Anyone see "the Factory" with John Cusack and Jennifer Carpenter?
Pretty much what happened in this house.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 160||05/07/2013|
The sheer number of men willing and enjoying the rape, brutalization and terrorizing of women never ceases to amaze me. I don't know what's wrong with men. Really.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 162||05/07/2013|
Amanda Berry's grandmother was interviewed, I had to laugh because she had a poster of Chippendales on her wall.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 163||05/07/2013|
R162 This story is shocking and depressing. In much of the world, women are treated this badly and it is business as usual.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 164||05/07/2013|
It would be a lot harder to escape from a place where three men are holding you captive than where one man is holding you captive.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 165||05/07/2013|
Poor guy. It must have been harrowing to grow up in that household.
The son of the chief suspect in the decade-old kidnappings of three Cleveland women who were rescued Monday says his dad bizarrely asked him recently whether one of the women would ever be found.
Anthony Castro, 31, a banker in Columbus, Ohio, said he was stunned by the question two weeks ago from his father, Ariel, 52, who was arrested with his two uncles after the rescue of the women from his childhood home.
Anthony Castro said he told his dad that the woman, Amanda Berry, was likely dead, prompting his father to respond, eerily, “Really? You think so?” He said the twisted conversation occurred when he paid a rare visit to his dad’s house on Seymour Ave. in Cleveland. He said he didn’t notice anything amiss during the brief visit because his father was always secretive. “The house was always locked,” Anthony said, recalling his days living there before he and his three sisters moved out of the house in 1996 when his parents split up.
Anthony Castro wrote an article about the disappearance of victim Gina DeJesus as a student at Bowling Green State University.
“There were places we could never go. There were locks on the basement. Locks on the attic. Locks on the garage.”
He described his father as a controlling, abusive and often drunk ogre who once nearly beat his mom, Grimilda Figueroa, to death as she was recovering from brain surgery. He said his mother died last year following an illness.
Police have revealed that while in captivity, Berry, now 27, gave birth to a girl, a 6-year-old rescued with her and two other long-missing women, Gina DeJesus and Michelle Knight.
FBI forensic personnel remove evidence Tuesday from the house where three women were held captive for a decade in Cleveland, Ohio.
“If it’s true that he took her captive and forced her into having sex with him and having his child and keeping her hidden and keeping them from sunlight, he really took those girls’ lives,” Anthony Castro said of his father.
“He doesn’t deserve to have his own life anymore. He deserves to be behind bars for the rest of his life.”
In another bizarre link to the cold cases, Anthony Castro wrote a newspaper story on the disappearance of DeJesus when he was a journalism student at Bowling Green University in 2004.
He even interviewed DeJesus’ mother, Nancy Ruiz, on the search for her daughter. Little did he know at the time that his father had allegedly added DeJesus to his sick collection of victims he was hiding in padlocked rooms.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 166||05/07/2013|
IPod - Chain of Fools
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 167||05/07/2013|
I doubt these are the only girls these guys have ever had. Especially hearing theon say that his dad had looks on the basement and forbid anyoeto enter even in the 90s.
And that kid is 6. I guarantee you she's Ben molested since she was a baby. Can you imagine being born into that world and knowing nothing else? I hope she's young enough that she forgets all of this.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 168||05/07/2013|
You bitches who insult Cleveland have clearly never spent time here.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 170||05/07/2013|
[quote]When will parents be able to put microchips in their children to track them? If I had small children, and it was available, I would do it in a heartbeat
The microchip will give your child cancer.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 171||05/07/2013|
All the neighbors sound dumb as a box of rocks. No wonder the kidnappers were able to fool them for so long. The three women who are being interviewed on Piers Morgan are inarticulate and one of them has the affect of a lobotomized mental patient. Just surreal.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 172||05/08/2013|
[quote]All the neighbors sound dumb as a box of rocks. No wonder the kidnappers were able to fool them for so long.
Some of the neighbors reported that they had called the police who either ignored them or came, looked around and then left.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 173||05/08/2013|
Yes, there was the girlfriend of a guy who lived in the neighborhood who said she saw a woman and young child banging on a window. She said she had to beg him to call the police and there was the report from the Senior center about three naked women being walked on leashes in a back yard. The police went out to investigate both times but left quickly and failed to follow up on the complaints. The police have a lot of explaining to do. But why didn't the people who reported these things follow up to make sure someone was taking it seriously? There must have been a crime tip hotline. Or a local radio talk show that they could have called or local television news stations that would have followed up on the story. If they had made enough noise someone would have come a knockin, r173.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 174||05/08/2013|
R174, I wondered if these are people who are not used to being taken seriously by authorities, so they back off faster than I would. They might also be afraid of the police. I doubt they have many positive interactions with police.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 175||05/08/2013|
R176, does chaining someone in a locked basement fit into your definition of "control"?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 177||05/08/2013|
Amanda Berry’s 911 Dispatcher Under Fire for Blasé Response
by David Freedlander May 7, 2013 7:32 PM EDT
When Amanda Berry called 911 after being held captive for 10 years, the Cleveland dispatcher didn’t keep her on the line until police came—but quibbled over her address and rushed to get off the phone. David Freedlander on the blowback.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 178||05/08/2013|
R177- they couldn't have been chained the whole time. They had to go to the bathroom. They needed their hands free to eat. They were apparently led around on leashes in the background where they could've yelled for their lives. Yes, they could've threatened to kill them but after a year or so, you've got to give it a try. Is life worth living in that situation?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 179||05/08/2013|
They were probably always locked in the basement and were guarded when they weren't chained.
As other posters have said, the rapists may have threatened their families. I would bet that 6 year old girl was used to keep her mother in line.
David Koresh used their children to control the mothers in his compound. If they left, they would never see their children again. It's an effective threat.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 180||05/08/2013|
Agree 100% with R77 and R80. Elizabeth Smart is messed up. She behaves very strangely in interviews.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 181||05/08/2013|
I don't see anything all that strange about Elizabeth Smart. She may come across as being a little affected, but that's likely to be a function of her operating outside of her comfort zone in interviews. She is not a media professional who has learned to become comfortable in front of cameras.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 182||05/08/2013|
Everytime I hear Amanda Berry's name I think about the Simpsons with Bart prank calling Moe. "I'm looking for Amanda, Amanda Berry. I need Amanda Berry."
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 183||05/08/2013|
Smart is strange.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 184||05/08/2013|
I blame part of Elizabeth acting strange on being Mormon
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 185||05/08/2013|
It's a good thing she finally feed herself, because it appears the police didnt give a shit. They received several reports of women being held captive in the house and either left when no one answered the door or didnt bother to show up at all. I hope there's some follow up on that.
And the 911 dispatcher was a cold hearted bitch. This girls is panicking, been imprisoned for 10 years and worried her captors will return soon., and she's all "We'll send a car when one becomes available. Bye!"
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 186||05/08/2013|
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 187||05/08/2013|
R186- you realize the 911 operator deals with calls like these all the time, right?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 188||05/08/2013|
And what is the operator supposed to say? I'll hop in my car and come myself? He can't leave his post.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 189||05/08/2013|
The operator is supposed to stay on the line until the police arrive.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 190||05/08/2013|
R288, I highly doubt she's had any calls like this, let alone "all the time".
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 191||05/08/2013|
R189, stay on the line. At least that's what other dispatchers are saying. Or how about sending a car over immediately? Instead of 'when available' I mean, fuck, she's been held captive for 10 years and worried that her captor will return. That seems like a time sensitive issue.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 192||05/08/2013|
[quote]I highly doubt she's had any calls like this, let alone "all the time".
It's Cleveland, don't sell them short.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 193||05/08/2013|
So Gina DeJesus was Castro's daughter's friend. How awful and devastating. Wasn't there some indication that Amanda Berry may have known him, as well?
[quote]One of the women may have been a close friend of Ariel Castro’s daughter, Arlene. Ms. Castro appeared on the Fox program “America’s Most Wanted” in 2005 to talk about her “best friend,” Gina DeJesus. Ms. Castro was identified on the program as the last person to have seen Ms. DeJesus before she disappeared, and she recounted on the program how they had been walking home from school together that day.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 194||05/08/2013|
If no car was available. Hell yeah get in her own car. I don't understand when people have jobs to help others and don't...
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 196||05/08/2013|
Even some dispatcher organizations are criticizing her lack of professionalism. She couldn't gauge the level of distress, fear and immediacy over the phone? Isn't that a requirement of the job?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 197||05/08/2013|
This is a traditionally under-served neighborhood and this event is going to cause the Cleveland police to do some overhauling due to the scrutiny that's raining down on them now and will continue to.
Residents have long complained about inadequate police patrols. There appear to have been two calls from neighbors complaining about nude women in the yard (once when one was out and the other when three were seen out in collars and leashes). Another neighbor claimed to have called when a woman was observed pounding and screaming from within the house. Police admit to going to the house on two occasions without making contact and with no follow up for separate complaints. That's five police contacts. The police are alleging that the first three never happened. Top this off with a lackadaisical 911 dispatcher who is being criticized by her own guild. Yeah, the CPD has a lot on its plate.
And you wonder why folks don't trust the police?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 198||05/08/2013|
I think you'd be surprised about the kinds of calls 911 operators get on a daily basis, r191. Also, if there's not a care available, there's not car available. Nothing more the 911 operator can do. Also, isn't the operator a he?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 199||05/08/2013|
R196- there are tons of emergency calls everyday. The operator can't hop in A car everytime someone calls. He'd miss other calls.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 200||05/08/2013|
R198- how do you know the first three calls did happen? You're picking and choosing which reports to believe.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 201||05/08/2013|
I suppose we'll know in time, but there's conflicting reports. Some neighbors said they did call the cops on at least 3 separate occasions and some news outlets are saying the police are denying that.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 202||05/08/2013|
[quote] how do you know the first three calls did happen? You're picking and choosing which reports to believe.
Did you read the post carefully before jumping to your erroneous conclusions? I am not picking and choosing, nor did I state my belief. Across all of the articles I've read, I reported ALL of the distinctly different calls to 911 that the neighbors reported. Note the language I used: "There appear to have been" "Another neighbor claimed" "The police are alleging they never happened." What do "appear" "claimed" and "alleging" suggest? That there are two sides to the story.
Regardless, it is an under-served neighborhood and this whole sad event serves to illustrate the gulf that there can be between poor communities and the police. People in this neighborhood seem to genuinely believe that calls for help to the police are ignored. And what happens in neighborhoods where this perception exists?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 203||05/08/2013|
I don't know if this is true but apparently Charles Ramsey aka The Hero was on the phone to 911 at the same time Amanda Berry was. He is supposed to have said something like, "sure you can speak with her. She's calling you guys right now."
I don't know how many police cars Cleveland has but perhaps one was already on its way to the scene based on CR's call.
If he and Amanda Berry both called 911 simultaneously, they would be speaking to different dispatchers and the operators would not have known it.
None of this excuses the behavior of the 911 dispatcher, though. And I am not posting this defend them or what happened.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 204||05/08/2013|
[quote] Some neighbors said they did call the cops on at least 3 separate occasions and some news outlets are saying the police are denying that.
I don't believe the police in this case. They repeatedly told Michelle Knight's mother that her daughter ran away and to stop bothering them
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 206||05/08/2013|
"The Dugar woman who was held captive in California got something like 20 million in her suit. I hope the girls in Cleveland are awarded something similar."
DeJesus' aunt really should have kept her big mouth shut today if they're even *thinking* about a lawsuit. Instead, she praised the police department to the high heavens-- speaking for the whole family!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 208||05/08/2013|
Recall the so called "House of Horrors" that was uncovered a couple of years ago. There were 11 corpses buried in the backyard. The victims were prostitutes, addicts, homeless. The neighbors complained continuously about the guy who was a recent parolee (for a sex crime, I think it was) and the horrible, distinct stench of rotting human flesh hanging around the house. The explanation the neighbors were given? It was from a sausage factory on the next block over.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 209||05/08/2013|
I just heard the Charles Ramsey 911 call. This guy and the guy who kicked in the door helped save those girls. Despite the horrors of this situation, he is also quite a character and comic relief. This guy is "the hide yo kids hide yo wife" Antoine Dodson of the Cleveland Kidnappings. He's already mentioned McDonald's and Big Macs a couple times, but the 911 call is even better.
'No, I'm smarter than that, bro, I'm tellin' you where the crime was, not MY house.'
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 210||05/08/2013|
Well, Charles Ramsey apparently has prior convictions for domestic violence.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 211||05/08/2013|
Well there's no excuse for that behavior, R211, and there can never be any excuse for it.
The fact remains, those three women are no longer being held captive, tortured and raped and that little girl is no longer in that hell-hole because Ramsey did the right thing.
His behavior yesterday may, in some small way, atone for his previous awfulness. Good for him.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 212||05/08/2013|
The woman who was pregnant three times was starved for two weeks and then beaten in the abdomen until she miscarried two of those times. Lovely.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 213||05/08/2013|
[quote]The report states that Castro impregnated Knight five times, and each time she was forced to undergo an absolutely barbaric abortion. Castro reportedly “starved [Knight] for at least two weeks, then he repeatedly punched her in the stomach until she miscarried."
Michelle Knight had it the worst. She's apparently got facial deformities from all of her beatings. And the saddest thing is, no one was even looking for hr. ):
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 214||05/08/2013|
[quote]DeJesus' aunt really should have kept her big mouth shut today if they're even *thinking* about a lawsuit. Instead, she praised the police department to the high heavens-- speaking for the whole family!
What did she praise them for? The police didn't rescue her niece; all they did was let her out of the house after someone else found her for them.
The aunt's remarks would have little effect in a lawsuit.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 215||05/08/2013|
Damn. Of all the corrections I've received on the Internet, this is the one I'm saddest about R214.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 216||05/08/2013|
Not a fantasy [R144].... my guess is you were lucky to have been raised in a different time and place than what I was forced to deal with. There were two theatres in the neighborhood, the Garden and across the street, one of Cleveland's only porn theatres in the late 60's, The Paris Art Theatre. It was probably the draw that brought all the perverts from all over the metro area to our neighborhood for us kids to deal with. Every Saturday there was a children's matinee at the Garden, and for us neighborhood kids it was one of the few things for us to do and only a quarter. Men would come to the Garden from the Paris and pay the ushers to let them fuck the kids in the restroom. My friend went to the bathroom and when he didn't come back, I went looking for him. Two ushers were blocking the door and told me I couldn't go in. My friend was probably 8 or 9 at the time and came back wiping tears and very agitated and said a man in the bathroom had given him a dollar bill that he showed me. Being sexually assaulted was an every few months occurrence while living in that horrible neighborhood. Of course I never told anyone, what was the use? We were white trash kids. It was an Appalachian ghetto. The embarrassing fact is those ugly stereotypes about hillbillies ARE true... lots of us were also being molested by relatives. My grandfather used to ask to have one or another grandchild to be put in his bed for the night. Our mothers always complied with the request. Great parenting there.
The neighborhood turned almost fully Hispanic in the 70's. I was darker skin and hair, and so not as much of a target (although my worthless father saw me surrounded and being shoved by a circle of them as he drove by and berated me as a "pussy" when I got home). As we all got older, the P.R. gangs went from switchblades to guns. Two of my friends were blond and blue eyed, both were shot by Puerto Rican gangs (their deaths happened two years apart) and both bled to death trying to get back to their homes... no one called to get them help even though there was a trail of blood through almost the whole neighborhood. My one friend had crawled up to several doors and pounded on them for help, but no one would answer or get involved. He collapsed on the front steps of his house and died in a pool of blood where his mother found him when she came home from work. That is my point, even back then, people in that neighborhood did not get involved, there are too many deviant, outlaw types and lots of mentally ill people. Sexual victimization also has deep roots there.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 218||05/09/2013|
[quote]I'd be willing to bet that the 911 operator who was so callous to Amanda Berry will not be a 911 operator for much longer.
Oooooooh, you like to live dangerously.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 219||05/09/2013|
I'm not excusing the callousness of the operator, but I had a client who repeatedly called the police to report that a spaceship has landed on her roof and that aliens had broken into the house and were raping her. The police were going out there all the time. I imagine you hear crazy stuff day in and day out and that could lead you to not take things seriously, but it's your job to at least be a decent human being.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 220||05/09/2013|
Big difference, r208.
The sick bastard in the Jaycee Duggard case was on parole and there was video tape showing how the man and his gf were so easily able to run off the parole officer.
I mean, it shows the parole officer just running out of the house without doing his job. All they had to do was verbally harass him a little, and he couldn't get out of the house fast enough!
Also, it now seems that many neighbors are now lying about what they saw and reported. The women themselves have told the police they only left the house twice. Both times they were put in the garage when someone came over to the house. That's it. They said NOTHING about ever being in the backyard.
Also he caught all 3 by offering them a ride. The 14 yr old new him because she was friends with his daughter. That daughter is now in prison for slashing her baby's throat.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 221||05/09/2013|
[quote]Also, it now seems that many neighbors are now lying about what they saw and reported. The women themselves have told the police they only left the house twice. Both times they were put in the garage when someone came over to the house. That's it. They said NOTHING about ever being in the backyard.
I love it when the certifiables here identify themselves with stupidity even further than the bounds of appreciable sanity in printed form and increase their worth in the "collector's market" of, well, dupes.
The "certifiables" have the first shout out for their disease. What do they think they're worth next?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 222||05/09/2013|
Your post makes no sense whatsoever.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 223||05/09/2013|
even TV reporters are doubting some of the neighbors stories
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 224||05/09/2013|
Intense fear, r225.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 226||05/09/2013|
They were scared r225. All 3 women said he would test them by pretending to leave the house. Threatened severe punishment if they ever tried to get away.
Severe punishment could have meant beatings, torture, no food, no water. Who knows?
How would you like to go wks without eating? That was one of the ways he caused miscarriages. Beatings and no food for the expectant mother.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 227||05/09/2013|
Maybe he was starting to show sexual interest in her 6 yr old.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 228||05/09/2013|
Let's lock R225 in a house with a violent psychopath and see how long it takes him to escape.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 230||05/09/2013|
R229 the only bitch here is you. If you went missing for 10 years and yo mama wouldn"t giva a crap I bet you would not run as fast as you suggest into her arms. Idiot
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 231||05/09/2013|
How would she know if her mom gave a crap or not? She doesn't know what she did in those 10 years. It's like she had a fight with her mom 10 years ago and now she's still holding that grudge against her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 232||05/09/2013|
I agree, R233
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 234||05/09/2013|
I find the people who wonder "why didn't they just escape" and "they must have liked being kept captive" hilarious. What is WRONG with you idiots?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 235||05/09/2013|
[quote]Michelle Knight is refusing to see her mom. What a bitch.
No she's not.
Her mom have an interview where she mentioned that a police officer told her that Michelle wanted nothing to do with her. Is that what you're talking about? Because she was talking about after Michelle went missing and the cops kept ignoring her attempts to report her missing. The cops just dismissed it as Michelle running away.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 236||05/09/2013|
What the fuck is all this about only ONE of the three brothers being arrested, because apparently the police "don't have enough evidence" to arrest the other two? WTF?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 237||05/09/2013|
It's more than that, R237. The three women told the police that they had NO contact with the other two brothers. Zero.
As bizarre as it seems (and is) the older and younger brothers had no idea what Ariel was doing.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 239||05/09/2013|
All of these girls were from trashy families. Do you think that's why police never found them? Because they weren't looking terribly hard for them?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 240||05/09/2013|
the brothers must be going free because the slaves themselves must have said they had never met any brothers... i mean, obviously. theyre not gonna go free if say amanda berry told cops the oldest bro oiled her chains on sundays
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 241||05/09/2013|
"As bizarre as it seems (and is) the older and younger brothers had no idea what Ariel was doing."
Bullshit. Just like Sandusky's wife not "knowing".
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 242||05/09/2013|
R240, Clevelander here, police and a ton of people were looking for them. The Berry and DeJesus family was in constant contact with police and FBI. Michelle Knight was in her 20's when she disappeared.
R141/R218 I'm sorry you had to grow up like that. Hopefully you have found a safe life free of that sick place.
It really is an evil cesspool.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 243||05/09/2013|
This is a perfect example of the application of justice by economics. All of us live in areas where there are neighborhoods like this one. How often have we driven thru a complete slum on our way to an event, like a sporting event or a concert? You can find these areas everywhere.
And you can see kids hanging around, playing, going to and from school, past abandoned homes and buildings, with addicts and predators everywhere. People waiting at bus stops glancing around, nervous, hoping they can get to or from work in one piece.
Well, the lives those little kids live day to day are a nightmare. And there are alcoholics, drug addicts,and a whole lot of wandering mentally ill people who prey on the vulnerable. The way this country funds mental health programs is abominable.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 244||05/09/2013|
[quote]Michelle Knight was kept the longest, almost 12 years. She had mental issues even before being kidnapped.
What kind of mental issues? Is she slow?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 245||05/09/2013|
Well, r246, you abominable piece of shit, I'm sure they've learned their lesson.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 247||05/09/2013|
so the one who was mental to begin with, no one looked for, got beat the most, and stayed the longest?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 248||05/09/2013|
[quote]All of them got kidnapped because they were offered a ride. Who the hell gets into a stranger's car? Only Gina has an excuse because it was her friend's dad.
He wasn't a stranger to them. His daughter was friends with Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus, which is how he lured them into his car.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 249||05/09/2013|
R249, according to a letter just found in the home purportedly to be written by Ariel Castro in 2004 upon kidnapping DeJesus:
[quote]"They are here against their will because they made a mistake of getting in a car with a total stranger," Castro wrote, according to Taylor. "I don't know why I kept looking for another. I already had 2 in my possession."
[quote]And, Castro writes, he was surprised to learn how young DeJesus was because "he thought she was a lot older."
He doesn't seem to be familiar with DeJesus despite claims that she was friends with his daughter. In the letter, he outright says they were strangers to him.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 250||05/09/2013|
Amanda Berry's mother kept a vigil every day for her daughter. She had large yellow ribbons laid on Amanda's bed. Every birthday, Christmas and any other event gifts were placed in Amanda's room piled up by now. A year after Amanda Berry disappeared in her mother appeared on "The Montel Williams Show" to speak to a psychic about what happened to her daughter. Sylvia Browne told Louwanna Miller on a 2004 episode of the show that her daughter was dead, causing Miller to break down in tears. Her mother died a year later probably of a broken heart.
Michelle Knight didn't get along with her mother and I'm not sure what her mental illness was but she dabbled in drugs when she was a teenager and that caused the falling out with them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 251||05/09/2013|
Is that letter authenticated and in police possession or did the reporter somehow get his hands on it?
One of the reports I read said that Gina DeJesus was walking home with Castro's daughter (not the one in prison). She called her mom to ask if she could go over to her house but the mom said no. By that point Castro and his wife were divorced and the children were with her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 252||05/09/2013|
DeJesus's brother said on the news that he knew Castro, although not well and hadn't seen him in 10 years.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 253||05/09/2013|
R250 Castro is lying. He knew the girls, they knew him from the urban neighborhood. Plus, he is a musician who played at parties.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 254||05/09/2013|
I hope Castro gets raped and beaten repeatedly in prison for the rest of his pathetic life.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 255||05/09/2013|
R255 other inmates are already harassing him in jail and the judge set bail at $8 million.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 256||05/09/2013|
One of the news stories mentions a teenaged boy coming out of the home of Michelle Knight's mother and asking for privacy. It says he is wearing and ankle bracelet. Is this Michelle's son? Is he under house arrest?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 257||05/09/2013|
I'm hoping R241 didn't mean anything by it... but how the hell did you not get called out for saying:
[quote]the brothers must be going free because the slaves themselves must have said they had never met any brothers...
He may have seen them as such and treated them as such, but they are not "slaves." They are women.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 258||05/09/2013|
[quote]She called her mom to ask if she could go over to her house but the mom said no
Who called whose Mom to ask if who could go over to whose house?
Please replace the pronouns so we can understand. TIA!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 259||05/09/2013|
If you weren't such a lazy piece of shit, you'd have rewritten it, R259.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 260||05/09/2013|
Why were the brothers arrested in the first place if they had nothing to do with this?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 261||05/09/2013|
The brothers had outstanding warrants against them for misdemeanors. Probably these warrants were used as an excuse to hold them while the FBI debriefed the women to find out if they were implicated in Ariel Castro's crimes.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 262||05/09/2013|
They were slaves, R258. The two are not mutually exclusive.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 263||05/09/2013|
I think there being three women found and there being three brothers, one would naturally assume they may be persons of interest.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 264||05/09/2013|
Michelle Knight's mother apparently had an abusive boyfriend who hurt her baby in some way which led to the child being taken away by the state. Michelle was abducted by Castro during court proceedings over the removal of the child and it was assumed that she just fled. The teenage boy with the house arrest anklet is Michelle's mother's new husband's son. There is also an 8 year old stepdaughter and Michelle's mother also has a ten year old daughter whom she seemed most excited for Michelle to meet and was actually planning to bring with her to see Michell in the hospital for the first time in ten years with no concern for what Michelle has gone through. The mother really seems like a creep and it sounds like Michelle would be a lot better off without her even if that means she's starting over all alone. Hopefully, someone will volunteer to reconstruct her face for free.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 265||05/09/2013|
It sounds like Michelle had it the worst of the three in captivity and now has the fewest resources available in recovery.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 266||05/09/2013|
It would be nice if Oprah, who featured the story of the three missing girls on a 2009 show, used some of her incredible wealth to help these women.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 267||05/09/2013|
[quote] Hopefully, someone will volunteer to reconstruct her face for free.
I'm sure someone will. If hedda nussbaum could get free surgery while being an accomplice in a little girl's murder than I'm sure someone will do something for this poor victim.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 268||05/09/2013|
Was it the mother's abusive boyfriend or Michelle's abusive boyfriend. I just read an interview where the mother said it was her daughter's BF who abused the baby.
[quote]Mrs Knight said she would often put up fliers around Cleveland's West Side and even after moving away, returning to continue the search on her own.
I have a hard time believing this. There don't seem to be any photos of Michelle pre-kidnapping like there are of the other two girls. I would assume these fliers had some kind of a photo.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 269||05/09/2013|
r269, what I read made it sound like it was the mother's boyfriend who abused Michelle's baby, but the sentence could have just been parsed badly; almost every report on this that I've read sounds like it was sent through Google Translate a dozen times before being spat out in English.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 270||05/09/2013|
R269, all of the photos of Michelle are pre-kidnapping. There have been no photos of her since her release.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 271||05/09/2013|
I haven't seen any photos of Michelle pre-kidnapping like the other girls whose pre-kidnapping photos are in almost every story I open, R271.
I know that the police and authorities wrote her off as a runaway, but she was never listed in Ohio's missing person database. Even if she had run away, she would still be a missing person. I know the authorities dropped the ball, but... I just don't think the mother is being truthful about her efforts to find her daughter.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 272||05/09/2013|
R272, I've seen several photos of Michelke before her kidnapping. I'm not sure why you're not, but she's just not getting the same media attention due to the fact that she's still in the hospital and they're not releasing photos due to her injuries.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 273||05/09/2013|
It's very sad to think that she was chained up, raped, beaten and tortured everyday for more than a decade and find out no one was even looking for you, though. Ariel seems to have been particularly cruel to her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 274||05/09/2013|
I've seen 2 photos of her pre-kidnapping. None post kidnapping. I'm very curious about what she looks like now. The lack of pictures makes me think she's been deformed so severely that the media thinks it's indecent to show her image or that she would frighten people so my imagination is running wild.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 275||05/09/2013|
It seems like the photos of Michele have popped only in the last 24 hrs. The more I read about her, the more my heart breaks for her. It turns out that the family only had one or two photos of Michele? I know I'm repeating myself, but I just don't believe the mother put fliers up around Cleveland and flew back looking for her. She didn't care enough to have more than one photo of her daughter? Is this not bizarre? I'm also beginning to think that she was relieved her daughter "ran away."
[quote]Michele was also described as "slow" by a cousin, and the missing person's report filed with the Cleveland Police Department said she had a "mental condition." She also appears to be the one most severely abused inside the Castro house. She reportedly has hearing damage and severe facial injuries due to "years of beatings."
[quote]Also confusing the already very sad matter is that other Knight family members were apparently unaware that she was even missing. Michele's brother said he didn't know about the disappearance because his mother kicked him out of the house when he was 14 and they don't speak anymore. [bold]The family has no other photos of Michele, aside from one that was given to police when her missing person's report was filed more than a decade ago.[/bold]
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 276||05/09/2013|
[quote]According to the police report, Knight said Castro threatened to kill her if Berry's baby died. Knight told police the newborn girl stopped breathing at one point, so she "breathed for her," giving mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to keep her alive.
I hope he gets the shit beat outta him on a daily basis.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 277||05/09/2013|
Michelle's mother should be thrown in prison, too.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 278||05/09/2013|
Do you think the 3 girls hate each other? I'm sure he made them do stuff to each other. Also, I'm sure he played favorites and pitted them against each other to keep them divided.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 279||05/09/2013|
[quote] She didn't care enough to have more than one photo of her daughter? Is this not bizarre? I
If I'd been kidnapped or disappeared at age 20, the most recent picture my parents would have had would be my high school yearbook photo. They never took pictures of me once I was an adolescent and teen. They were sick of looking at me, haha.
Now kids have cellphones and take photos of themselves all the time, but before cellphone cameras, it was pretty rare for parents to take their kids photos as teens. and the Knight family doesn't look like they'd have been a smartphone family a decade ago.
I find it kind of creepy when I look at the Facebook pages of my cousin's daughters. 99% of the photos are of their heads/faces. It seems really narcissistic to me. They're always posing for head shots. Ok girls, we know what you look like. Maybe you can whittle it down to only 60% head shots and maybe a photo of your pet or your bf or of some pumpkins and haystacks or a Christmas tree or something. Anything but your umpteenth fantasy Cosmo cover.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 280||05/09/2013|
R279, I heard not at all. In fact, apparently they bonded in the face of the horrors they all faced.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 281||05/09/2013|
[quote]It was pretty rare for parents to take their kids photos as teens.
It was? Really? That wasn't the experience in my family. Christmas, Thanksgiving, vacation, assorted gatherings. Group photos abounded. I wasn't hounded to pose individually, but I was part of the group. The family had only one photo of Michele? This is especially strange for girls, I think.
I can understand if the family is poor they can't afford school photos, but if your only daughter disappeared, wouldn't you make an effort to get as many photos as possible to distribute? A couple of yearbook photos. It's just bizarre. The whole family sounds odd. Brother didn't even know his sister was missing because he'd been kicked out at 14. This suggests that there wasn't much publicity and the family didn't search as the mother. suggests.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 282||05/09/2013|
R281, that's good to hear. Hopefully it's not too painful for them to stay connected now that they're free.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 283||05/09/2013|
To be fair, I see about 3 different Michelle Knoght photos being distributed. That's not much less than the other girls. It probably feels less because Amanda and Gina have recent photos being released.
But Michelle was not a kid when she was abducted, and it seems outside of her mom who at least DID file a missing persons report, no one was too concerned.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 284||05/09/2013|
Michele Knight's mother said she distributed flyers of her missing daughter, but a CNN report refuted that when a neighbor (of Michele's mother) stated that they did canvas the neighborhood for one week after Michele disappeared, but there were never any flyers distributed.
I think it is rather telling that there were no photos of Michele available to the press until a few days after her release.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 285||05/09/2013|
"Anything but your umpteenth fantasy Cosmo cover."
That's pretty much all they see in the media about how women are supposed to look like and act. At that age, you don't know any better.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 286||05/09/2013|
[quote] It would be nice if Oprah, who featured the story of the three missing girls on a 2009 show, used some of her incredible wealth to help these women.
Save them. A condo for each of them. A car. Educational expenses. Reconstructive surgery. Therapy. A little money to keep them going a while into the future. This is pocket change for Oprah.
And then leave them the hell alone.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 287||05/09/2013|
Why are peopel going on about a laack of photos. There are many reasons why there may be few photos. First not every family takes photos regularly. This family seems especially troubled so I'm not envisioning much opportunity or inclination and she was 20 so no more Prom night pictures, etc.
Second, ability to keep photos. Not every family has stability. People move, they get evicted, they incur damage or loss of their personal property via thefts, etc.
People really need to think outside their own personal worlds. For instance people who get evicted many times lose almost all they have.
Why would a 20 year old assumed to have moved out of her own home voluntarily be listed in a missing persons database? It does happen that young adults leave home and want nothing more to do with their families. Isn't that what was assumed?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 288||05/09/2013|
An Ohio prosecutor says he may seek the death penalty against the man accused of imprisoning three women at his home for about a decade for forcing them to suffer miscarriages.
Kidnap victims freed in Cleveland Cuyahoga County prosecutor Thomas McGinty says Ohio law calls for the death penalty for the "most depraved criminals who commit aggravated murder during the course of a kidnapping." He says aggravated murder charges could be filed related to pregnancies terminated by force.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 289||05/09/2013|
[quote]Why would a 20 year old assumed to have moved out of her own home voluntarily be listed in a missing persons database?
Well, because she went missing and the mother filed a missing persons report, but didn't appear to follow up, just like the authorities which likely is why she never wound up in the database. Not that being in a database would have helped her, but it's symptomatic of institutional malaise and the family's own malaise.
The police didn't assume she'd moved out. "Running away" was term used to describe it because she was upset about her child's custody. A cousin described her as "slow" and the police said she had a "mental condition." A vulnerable person was missing.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 291||05/09/2013|
NO asshole at r260. It's really not clear who called whom to ask permission to go to whose house. There are too many women being spoken about in the previous sentence, you asswipe!
So the point of that post is lost.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 292||05/09/2013|
R288, I think that if the mother gave a flying fuck, she would have come up with a flyer that included a photo of her missing daughter. The fact that she was a twenty-year-old should have absolutely no bearing on a mother's frantic search for her child.
The lack of photo seems to be symbolic of just how much apathy (and lack of empathy) was involved in this poor girl/woman's disappearance.
Amanda and Gina's "faces" were kept in the news by their respective loved ones insistent pleas for their daughter's return. Michelle was all but forgotten.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 293||05/09/2013|
Michelle Knight's brother apparently didn't even know she'd been missing for the past 10 years! He was estranged from their mother and hadn't spoken to her for years and presumably he just thought Michelle wasn't talking to him either.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 294||05/09/2013|
Also, Michelle went outside to make a phone call. She didn't pack her bags and leave in a huff.
If one of your relatives walked out the door with nothing but the clothes on their back, never to return, would you not assume there might be foul play afoot?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 295||05/09/2013|
I'm laughing at the fools in this thread who don't realize that many poor people don't own cameras.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 296||05/09/2013|
Look at me!Look at me!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 297||05/09/2013|
Do we know for a fact that they were poor? Or average working class?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 298||05/09/2013|
I'm sorry, but it's simply inconceivable that these three women were trapped for 10 years in that house by one man alone. How did they wash/eat/relieve themselves, etc.? They certainly couldn't have been bound and gagged every moment for a decade. And they all are in reasonably good physical health which means there musn't have been that much physical duress. Even Jaycee Dugard's twisted psycho kidnapper needed an accomplice, his wife, to keep just one teenager at first. Something smells in Cleveland. Castro either had help, he kept the women drugged for years so they couldn't scream every time he left the house or these poor three souls ultimately accepted their desperate situation and ajusted, living boring and secluded lives when they probably should have remained plotting together daily to kill the freak the first chance they got.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 299||05/09/2013|
R299, have you not read the accounts of how difficult it was to get Amanda Berry out of that house even after her rescuer (whoever he was) became aware of her?
There were three brothers implicated, not just one.
If you had three women chained in your locked basement, you could take one of them to the bathroom at a time while the others remained chained and locked up. I'm sure the women became accustomed to relieving themselves without using bathroom facilities. The normal niceties of life are dispensed with in circumstances like theirs.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 300||05/09/2013|
I don't know about the good health part. Other stations like CNN said that Michelle Knight was in bad condition when they found her and (on yesterday's telecast) was still in the hospital. She appeared to be suffering from starvation and suffers hearing loss and has damage to bones in her face.
There were supposedly several pregnancies and Ariel supposedly punched the women in the stomach repeatedly to get them to abort.
I guess we'll find out more as the story goes.
They didn't look too hard for the first girl Michelle because she had a strained relationship with her mother. She was a high school drop out and had a baby. They sporadically looked for her but some thought she ran away.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 301||05/09/2013|
R298, that neighborhood is lower class, the working poor.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 303||05/09/2013|
Why were the other two brothers LET GO??
WHAT THE FUCK?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 304||05/09/2013|
What the hell is with the repetitive posts about "Po' folk can't afford none of that picture takin'" nonsense.
Michelle disappeared in 2002. 2 0 0 2! You guys make it sound like the only photos processed way back in 2002, were exclusively for the rich folk by way of daguerreotype.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 305||05/09/2013|
Yeah. I'm a little incredulous too, R305. My parents were immigrants who worked for minimum wage for many years when I was little and they were the proud owners of an Instamatic.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 306||05/09/2013|
R305, first you have to own a camera. Then you have to either pay to have photos developed or own a computer to print and store photos.
I guess that guy who works as a dishwasher should own an iPhone?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 307||05/09/2013|
R306, Your post reminded me of a news photo of Michele Obama serving food to the homeless. In that photo, you could see one of the homeless men taking a photo of her with his Blackberry! So, yeah, the poor do have access to these new fangled devices.
Also, R306, I completely agree. Even though some families may be of a lower income level, they take pride in their family and will go the extra mile and spend that precious dough to create a family history of photos.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 308||05/09/2013|
Oops! The first paragraph was in response to R307.
The second paragraph in response to R306.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 309||05/09/2013|
[quote] there musn't have been that much physical duress.
Yeah, that whole being raped in every way imaginable every day for a decade was probably relaxing.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 310||05/09/2013|
Ok, so I guess us folks who belong to non-photo taking families simply don't exist.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 311||05/09/2013|
How old are you R311? Are you also R302? If so, it sounds like you might be from a generation where event and family photos weren't so common.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 312||05/09/2013|
R310 is right. Also, wearing chains would be great exercise.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 313||05/09/2013|
"And they all are in reasonably good physical health which means there musn't have been that much physical duress."
The guy basically beat his wife to death. I'm sure he was super nice to those three women. Being raped regularly, beaten and kicked in the stomach while pregnant so you'd have an abortion surely doesn't sound like "that much physical duress".
Honestly, I really think men as a gender are congenitally retarded.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 314||05/09/2013|
And those repeated weeks-long stints of starvation really helped me lose the extra weight from those five pregnancies!!!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 315||05/09/2013|
Michelle was told/forced to deliver Amanda's baby(the little 6 yr old girl) in a little kiddie pool.
Castro told Michelle.... If that baby dies, so do you. Can you imagine?
The baby did have some difficulty and Michelle had to give her mouth to mouth.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 316||05/09/2013|
[quote]Why were the other two brothers LET GO??
If the girls said they never saw the brothers, then why wouldn't they?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 317||05/09/2013|
[quote]And they all are in reasonably good physical health which means there musn't have been that much physical duress.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 318||05/09/2013|
New details continued to emerge on Thursday about the kidnappings, including how the women had been abducted.
In each case, the women accepted Mr. Castro’s offer of a ride home while they were walking down the street, according to a police report that included the first statements the women gave after their rescue.
The report had a chilling detail: Mr. Castro's daughter was a close friend of one of the victims.
What part of "Don't Take Rides from Strangers" did these girls not understand?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 319||05/09/2013|
If the girl was a close friend of his daughter, he wasn't a stranger in the classic sense.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 320||05/09/2013|
If you threaten and starve and beat three young girls, keep them in separate cells in the basement, chain them, tie them up, gag them, etc - it's not particularly difficult to understand how an adult male could and did control them.
These people imagining it can't happen are just frightened, insecure idiots. You want to pretend it's the girls' fault and that something like this could never happen to YOU. It could happen to you just as easily as it happened to them. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time and running into the wrong person is all it takes.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 321||05/09/2013|
R316, I know it's early and we don't really know what happened to all of those girls down there, but it really sounds like it was especially brutal for Michelle.
The media doesn't really seem to love her as much as the other two, either. It's very sad, but perhaps she's older and less interesting. I really hope things turn out well for her.
For all of them. They have 10 years of this horrible history. That's. really long fucking time.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 323||05/09/2013|
[quote]If the girls said they never saw the brothers, then why wouldn't they?
Because they HAD to have known what was going on.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 324||05/09/2013|
Hell, r319, some posters on dl claim they still hitch hike.
As a woman, I would never do it. I can't tell you how many times I've been out walking and some man stops and asks me if I want a ride.
I'm always polite and say... No thanks, just getting a little exercise.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 325||05/09/2013|
Shit, I meant R322.
Time for bed.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 327||05/09/2013|
My question is, after he had made one girl have at least 5 miscarriages (and I'm sure he must have done the same to the others), why did he allow/make one of them carry to term and deliver?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 328||05/09/2013|
My suspicion would tell me that they had to know what was going on but it could very well be that they didn't. People tend to tune out what they don't want to know.
I always remember the case about the man that kept his daughter in his basement for over 10 years and made her give birth to six of his children... and he kept three of them locked in the basement with them.
The whole time his wife was upstairs and had no idea that any of it was going on. She just thought her daughter had run away.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 330||05/09/2013|
These weren't "abortions" - he beat them
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 331||05/09/2013|
Egotism, R328. Someone else to have total control over. Maybe she was the favorite.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 332||05/09/2013|
The brothers have been described as drunks who can't hold jobs. It may be that they're too out of it or their senses have been dulled by the alcohol abuse. Drunks have a priority and they often have blinders on.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 333||05/09/2013|
Maybe Amanda was his favorite.
Law enforcement said the 2 brothers are just hopeless alcoholics/drug addicts. Mugshots kind of back that up. They had no knowledge of the situation.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 334||05/09/2013|
They might actually never want to see one another again as they might never want a reminder of what they went through.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 335||05/09/2013|
"The report had a chilling detail: Mr. Castro's daughter was a close friend of one of the victims.
What part of "Don't Take Rides from Strangers" did these girls not understand?"
Probably the part that he WASN'T a stranger, his daughter was friends with one of the victims.
A lot of young girls/women don't grow up thinking/knowing/expecting that many men have major behavioral and violence issues and don't mistrust men. When I was a young girl, I was shocked by the constant aggressive and unpleasant, often dangerous verbal and/or physical assault by men every single fucking day of my life.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 336||05/09/2013|
In one video I saw, Ariel Castro was trying to cover his face. Fucking coward. Mot of these losers who do this are cowardly little bitches in the end, with a few exceptions. The exceptions usually try and continue their terror from prison.
Crime Library has an excellent comprehensive article about sexual slavery cases.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 337||05/09/2013|
^ The freakiest sex slave story I ever heard about was the John Jamelske "sex bunker" case
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 338||05/09/2013|
They sound like the pig farmer brothers.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 339||05/09/2013|
So on what basis are they going to go for the death penalty?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 340||05/09/2013|
If it's proven he killed the fetuses, that's murder and he can face death.
Although, I say let them just put him in Gen pop and have his fellow inmates get a crack at him.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 341||05/09/2013|
To back up r198 I've been to this area I have family that live in Cleveland though not in that area thankfully. For anyone familiar with Los Angeles the Cleveland area might be comparable to South Central. It's integrated with a large Latin population some Black people and some hillbilly White people. So when folks call the police it's a crap shoot. Kind of like trying to get a cab to take you to Harlem before Harlem got gentrified.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 342||05/09/2013|
look, Google Street view captures American poverty
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 343||05/09/2013|
Some whiter-than-white guy named-- wait for it-- *Poindexter* was just on Anderson and says that he and his brother saw what they believed to be Gina DeJesus' kidnapping and guess what? The cops totally disregarded their story. I mean, if they won't listen to a guy who looks like Oliver Barrett III's frat brother...
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 344||05/09/2013|
Anderson's interview with Charles Ramsey.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 345||05/09/2013|
I really like that Ramsey said any reward should not go to him, but go to those girls.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 346||05/09/2013|
Three forgotten women forced to live together in Cleveland?
I smell SITCOM!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 347||05/09/2013|
yeah 343 but that is not what the neighborhood the girls were in looks like. you can go to google maps and type in what is it sycamore ave, cleveland ohio and see that it is a pretty clean looking little neighborhood. but it did not always look that way. it has been cleaned up quite a bit over the last 20 years.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 348||05/09/2013|
I feel so sorry for the 32 yr old. Of the three she seems to be the most alone. I hope she can pull thru this. It may seem strange, but I bet those girls would rather stay together. I mean WTF would even begin to understand what they went thru. They are their own support group. It may take several years before they outgrow their need to be together.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 349||05/09/2013|
"Some whiter-than-white guy named-- wait for it-- *Poindexter* was just on Anderson and says that he and his brother saw what they believed to be Gina DeJesus' kidnapping and guess what? The cops totally disregarded their story. I mean, if they won't listen to a guy who looks like Oliver Barrett III's frat brother..."
Where's the evidence that he's telling the truth? High profile cases tend to bring out lots of liars looking for their 10 minutes of fame. It's easy to say "Yeah, I saw something!" without any evidence...
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 350||05/09/2013|
[quote][R318]. Abortion is legal. You cannot dictate methods.
Omfg, you MUST be mentally challenged, are you fucking kidding me here?!?
You really think that a man punching a woman's stomach until she has a miscarriage is exactly the same as a woman choosing to have a safe, medically-induced abortion? Really?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 351||05/10/2013|
[quote]Cuyahoga County prosecutor Thomas McGinty says Ohio law calls for the death penalty for the "most depraved criminals who commit aggravated murder during the course of a kidnapping." He says aggravated murder charges could be filed related to pregnancies terminated by force.
I think this is a good idea [both the death penalty for causing miscarriage, and putting this evil bastard to death].
However, I strongly doubt it will succeed, because it delves into the ethics of abortion and pregnancy. If Castro is a murderer, then so are women who choose abortion.
And what about pregnant women who smoke? Or drink an occasional glass of wine? What about pregnant women who continue to work dangerous jobs, where there is a very real chance of death? Are they to be charged with neglect, or child endangerment? Or can they do anything they want, as long as the fetus is not viable outside their body?
The entire issue of fetal rights vs the rights of the mother is a very slippery slope.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 352||05/10/2013|
[quote]If Castro is a murderer, then so are women who choose abortion.
Oh heavens to Betsy! We have a live one!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 353||05/10/2013|
R351 and r352 are the same person.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 354||05/10/2013|
[quote]The pictures of Michelle Knight so far have been blurry and few: “The family has no other photo of Michelle to provide to the media,” the Plain Dealer noted.
Nice New Yorker article on Knight, though it reiterates a lot of what's already been said here.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 355||05/10/2013|
How could the other brothers not have heard *something*? If Ariel Castro literally beat the fetuses out of the girls -- and lord only knows what else he did -- there must have been screams of pain. Was he some kind of soundproofing genius?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 356||05/10/2013|
Why would the brothers have heard anything? They didn't live there. He kept everyone away from the house. He only briefly allowed his son in.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 357||05/10/2013|
The house was in foreclosure. I bet he was going to kill them soon.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 358||05/10/2013|
He says he had no "exit strategy" but he could have left town and disappeared. Once out of the country he could send an anonymous letter to the police to free them.
He must have been scared too because of his 6 year old daughter getting older. Sounds like she wasn't chained up.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 359||05/10/2013|
[quote]Abortion is legal. You cannot dictate methods.
You need to be a licensed medical doctor to perform a legal abortion.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 360||05/10/2013|
I'm quite curious about the circumstances the 6-year old was living in and what role she played in getting her mother out of the house.
According to one interview with Ramsey, he said when the 6-year old was free, she just kept screaming that she wanted her Daddy.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 361||05/10/2013|
Uh, yeah, R360, and you need the consent of the mother. Who was that fucktard tool you quoted?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 362||05/10/2013|
CLEVELAND One of the women who spent a decade in captivity is still being treated for anxiety, but CBS Cleveland affiliate WOIO-TV reports that Michelle Knight is hospitalized for possible reconstructive surgery to heal injuries suffered at the hands of her accused attacker.
Knight's grandmother, Deborah Knight, confirmed the information, telling WOIO-TV: "When she was severely beaten, he had beat her so bad in the face, she has to have facial reconstruction, and she's lost hearing in one ear."
Records obtained by WOIO-TV show Knight also may have faced physical abuse before she was kidnapped.
Records show David Feckley was charged and convicted in the early 2000s of child endangerment, for breaking the arm of Knight's infant son. He served eight years in prison. But a rape charge was dropped when the alleged victim, Knight, couldn't be found. She went missing in 2002.
Knight wasn't seeing visitors Thursday, not even her family. On Wednesday, her mother, in from Naples, Fla., met with Knight briefly at Metro Health Medical Center. A relative said the meeting was strained, and Knight asked her mom to leave.
Meanwhile, the community is showing its love and concern for Knight, lighting up social media. Someone even offered her a place to stay. One woman stopped by Knight's grandmother's house Thursday morning with balloons and flowers.
"I wanted to let her know people are thinking about her," said Lindsey Perkins, a total stranger.
On Thursday evening, friends and concerned citizens hosted a "balloon release" to honor her escape.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 363||05/10/2013|
Forgot the link.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 364||05/10/2013|
It's sort of amazing to think about the chain of events that led to this happening.
If the mailman wouldn't have accidentally put Ariel's mail in Ramsey's box, Ramsey would never have realized that he (Ariel) wasn't home and therefore something was up with the screaming coming from inside the house.
At the same time, Ramsey, if he hadn't had the past he had, and vowed to do better with his life, would probably never have gone over to assist.
I'm wondering what was the event that caused or allowed Amanda to try to get out. It was said somewhere that Amanda said they were too scared to ever try to escape because Ariel would test them by pretending to leave.
Just sort of fascinating that these seemingly random events come together to create an opportunity.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 365||05/10/2013|
I feel so sorry for Michelle Knight. It sounds like she's had a terrible life even before the kidnapping.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 366||05/10/2013|
Ramsey said he would see some kids playing in the backyard pretty often and was told or assumed that they were his Grandkids.
Who are these kids? Did he have more than the 6 year old?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 367||05/10/2013|
"Records show David Feckley was charged and convicted in the early 2000s of child endangerment, for breaking the arm of Knight's infant son. He served eight years in prison. But a rape charge was dropped when the alleged victim, Knight, couldn't be found."
Sad. Sounds like she's had a lifetime of hurt.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 368||05/10/2013|
Even though Amanda Berry is the star of this rescue (and to a degree Gina DeJesus), I think Michelle Knight is the one the public is going to respond to. Her life before and during captivity was beyond tragic. It seems she got it worse and was the whipping girl for Ariel. I'm sure he had favorites and Amanda was probably it, since she let her daughter live. He may also have had a soft spot for DeJesus as the youngest. But I think Michelle was his punching bag.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 369||05/10/2013|
Michele already was a punching bag before Ariel got her in his clutches so the pattern continued.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 370||05/10/2013|
Charles Ramsey lied to everyone. He played us all.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 371||05/10/2013|
And especially if Michelle is mentally challenged as her family says, Castro may cruelly wanted to make more certain she didn't have a child. Although it's hard to believe the other two wouldn't have had multiple pregnancies as well. But I don't think they've said for certain?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 372||05/10/2013|
I'm not certian that he "played" anyone. He says in one of his interviews that there was someone else trying to get the door open but that the guy left.
Sounds more like they were both involved but there's a disupte as to who actually kicked the door in.
I don't know why based on this article, you're assuming it was Ramsey that lied and not this guy. I'm not saying Ramsey didn't lie, but what makes you think this guy isn't now just trying to get a piece of it?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 373||05/10/2013|
The truth will always surface.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 374||05/10/2013|
If that Angel Cordero doesn't speak English, how the hell did he know what Amanda Berry was saying to him behind the door?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 375||05/10/2013|
R375 Duh! She just said it slower and louder.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 376||05/10/2013|
I saw an interview where Charles Ramsey said someone else was with him but didn't speak English. It was probably a simultaneous thing with both of them playing a heroic part.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 377||05/10/2013|
R373, Duh. R371 said it because Angel is more fuckable than Ramsey. The cuter and hotter guy always gets our support.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 378||05/10/2013|
I don't want this sick fuck to get the death penalty. I want him to go to jail where the other inmates will torture him slowly and relentlessly for the rest of his life.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 379||05/10/2013|
Oh R373, you're so gullible. Read the transcript of Ramsey's 911 call. There's some real gullible people here. I worry for all of you. The world must roll you often.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 380||05/10/2013|
I'm so out of it. I thought only white frat guys and white stoners said "bro."
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 381||05/10/2013|
And you, r380, are an idiot (despite thinking you are so, so clever).
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 382||05/10/2013|
You're so superior to everyone! Yes, I've read the transcript and nothing in it conflicts with him having been a part of him pulling her out of the house.
It's obvious why you're superior... you have time to worry for people on a message board!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 383||05/10/2013|
I wonder if Michelle Knight's son was half black and that was a reason for some of her cracker family's disdain.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 384||05/10/2013|
Actually you're not only an idiot, you're the gullible one. It's funny that you go off calling everyone else gullible but you clearly state you believed Ramsey's story:
[quote]He played us all.
In reality, you're the gullible one because you're immediately believing the story of this other guy that has now come out, with really no proof of his involvement.
You're a big failure and apparently have reading comprehension issues. R373 didn't even say either story was believed. It clearly states that both stories could be true or not. There aren't enough facts yet to piece it together.
The one fact though is you're a Jackass.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 385||05/10/2013|
Read the flippin' transcript, morons. Were you in the slow classes? He lied and injected himself into the situation after she was already rescued. He witnessed her rescue, that's all. She didn't go running into his black arms, did she? Why you feel the need to defend a transient dishwasher hustler says a lot about you. THIS is why you're always getting rolled. Don't ever come to NYC, even if to put your down payment on that bridge up for sale.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 386||05/10/2013|
R386 yes, like you, NY is superior to everything.
From your own statements then, morons and gullible people should stay away from NYC because its full of lying, scheming, no good hustlers? That's quite an endorsement. I see why you're so proud to be from there.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 387||05/10/2013|
I feel sorry for the both of you who are arguing. What pathetic morons.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 388||05/10/2013|
Super-clever person at r380, I saw an interview with Ramsey in which he clearly stated that he and a neighbour went up to the house and pulled the doors open. Sometimes he's not very specific about there being another person but he always says "we kicked the door open". Ramsey was there and he was involved in getting the women out of the house. I'm sure other neighbours helped out too and it was probably a very confusing situation, especially with this young woman that no one was even aware of trying to break her away out of the house!
Ramsey was there and the tv cameras got hold of him and asked him to give his version, he didn't "inject" himself into the situation. Now this other guy comes along and says it was all him. Cordero's version of events doesn't sound totally true either (did he have this conversation with Amanda in English? Did Amanda forget about Michelle and Gina?). Unlike Ramsey, Cordero is saying it was all him.
But, it really doesn't matter. Well done to both of them and anyone else who helped these women escape.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 389||05/10/2013|
Can we start getting Cordero on TV now?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 390||05/10/2013|
Yeah, all of that has been pointed out to R380, he doesn't get it. But any second now he's going to respond and say you're a moron for not reading the transcript, blah blah blah.
You just can't with some people.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 391||05/10/2013|
The official story will come out once Amanda gets interviewed. Only thing I doubt is that Angel was across the street and Ramsay was right next door with only maybe 6 feet between the houses. It seems more likely Ramsey would have heard screaming than Angel even if he were on the porch.
I'm waiting to hear from Amanda.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 392||05/10/2013|
I don't give a fuck who rescued her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 393||05/10/2013|
In his interview with Anderson he recounts that he was in his house eating his McDonald's when he heard Amanda screaming. He ran out of the house and he clearly says that there was another man, one of his neighbors, at Amanda's door, trying to get the door open. He says he didn't know if the guy spoke English or not, but that the guy froze and Ramsey helped kick the door in.
He never said he was the sole person to help Amanda get out. In fact, he says it is because he saw the other man running across the street that caused him to go over as well.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 394||05/10/2013|
Michele Knight's case is just awful. Her teen pregnancy was, apparently, the product of a gang rape. The brother who didn't know she was missing? Her TWIN.
Michelle Knight has finally been released from hospital and is staying at the home of Gina DeJesus after she refused to see her mother.
Michelle became the third and final victim to leave the hospital where she was being treated for the physical and mental abuse she endured over ten years allegedly at the hands of Ariel Castro, who is accused of routinely beating and raping his three victims.
The hospital said she is in good spirits and grateful for the fund created to aid the victims. But she has refused to see her mother Barbara, choosing instead to stay with her fellow captive. A family friend who talked to Nancy DeJesus said the DeJesus family is taking Michelle Knight in because she says Gina is her only family left in Cleveland.
The hospital statement said: 'Michelle Knight is in good spirits and would like the community to know that she is extremely grateful for the outpouring of flowers and gifts. 'She is especially thankful for the Cleveland Courage Fund. She asks that everyone please continue to respect her privacy at this time.'
Her mother is believed to have hired a lawyer in order to try and get access to her daughter. Attorney Jay Milano told WKYC: 'Barbara just wants to be a part of the healing process.' She flew in from Florida on Tuesday night after learning about her daughter's rescue on the news and claimed she never gave up hope Michelle was still alive.
She said she wanted to bring her back to Naples with her once she was released from hospital. Michelle was the first of the three victims to be abducted. She was last seen at a cousin's house near West 106th Street and Lorain Avenue in Cleveland in 2002.
Concern: Michelle Knight's great-aunt Deborah Knight says that her niece had a child as a result of the junior high sex attack But her disappearance did not receive much publicity as she was classed as a runaway and her name was taken off the missing person's database just 15 months later.
Michelle's twin brother yesterday recalled his shock at seeing her alive for the first time in more than a decade. 'When I saw her, she was white as a ghost,' Freddie Knight, 32, told The New York Post. 'But she told me, "Come over here and give me a hug. It’s been ages!"
'She was happy to see me. It was emotional. She even recognized me — even though it had been 11 years.' Speaking to the MailOnline, Freddie said last night that he was afraid that his sister would become the 'forgotten kidnap victim' as so much more attention was placed on Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus.
He also said that she would not have a home to go to when she was released from hospital - unlike the other two victims.
Knight himself, who says he was kicked out of his mother's house 16 years ago when he was just 14, didn't even know his sister was gone until he saw the news on TV.
He was among the first of her family members to see her after her rescue. 'She was white as a ghost,' he said. 'She's really weak. She's just trying to cope with everything right now. 'She didn't talk much. When she's ready, she will tell me but I don't want to bring it up until then. She's really traumatized right now.'
Barbara Knight has contended all week that police did not do enough to try and find her daughter.
The police department's policy on investigating missing adults at the time states that an officer must go and see if a missing person has been found, then inform the FBI within two hours so the person can be removed from the National Crime Information Center database.
Kym Pasqualini, a national advocate for missing adults, told The Plain Dealer that the removal of Knight's name and description from the database after only 15 months helped the case fall through the cracks.
However, even after she was removed from the database, police reports show that officers continued to inquire about her whereabouts several times afterwards and successfully verified she was still missing in M
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 395||05/10/2013|
[quote]Your post reminded me of a news photo of Michele Obama serving food to the homeless. In that photo, you could see one of the homeless men taking a photo of her with his Blackberry! So, yeah, the poor do have access to these new fangled devices.
1 + 1 = 48,279
One homeless man was using a Blackberry; therefore, all of the poor have them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 396||05/10/2013|
That wasn't the point. The point is that they are accessible to people with very limited means, especially with pay as you go plans and many people who are very poor do have them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 397||05/10/2013|
[quote]Her mother is believed to have hired a lawyer in order to try and get access to her daughter. Attorney Jay Milano told WKYC: 'Barbara just wants to be a part of the healing process.'
I wonder if Michelle's mother wanted to be part of the healing process before she heard there was money being raised for three women.
If her daughter asked her to leave when she visited, I can only imagine what went on in that hospital room.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 398||05/10/2013|
And many don't, R397.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 399||05/10/2013|
Horrifying what happened to Michelle. Who wants to bet that her rapists never were held accountable? Poor woman. The abuse women are exposed to worldwide is just mindblowing.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 400||05/10/2013|
If Barbara had all been concerned and hopeful about her daughter, she wouldn't have moved to Florida.
First rule for immediate family of missing persons - don't change addresses.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 401||05/10/2013|
I don't understand this whole notion that you can sue to force yourself to be a part of someone's life, especially an Adult. I don't understand why this is allowed.
It's like when Grandparents sue to have visitation rights with their Grandchildren. I'm not sure what right they have to do so. (I do understand if they're trying to do so because they have played a major role in the child's life for a number of years, etc. But not when Grandparents do so when they find out an estranged child has kids).
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 402||05/10/2013|
Didn't they say that the rapists weren't held accountable because she went missing and therefore they couldn't be tried?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 403||05/10/2013|
R402, odds are the mother will try to have Michelle found incompetent to manage her own affairs. Of course she'll want to help her manage her newfound money.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 404||05/10/2013|
Michele's mother has no legal leg to stand on.
It sounds like the women had access to television and at least Amanda was aware that people were looking for her. The DeJesus family never gave up. If she watched TV and saw the lengths to which the families went to look for their daughters and compared it to her mother's scarce effort... The mother's neighbor said that they family canvassed the neighborhood for a week, no fliers.
Additionally, remember she probably still resents her mother for bringing home the boyfriend that broke her baby's arm. It would be more accurate to say that the baby was removed from the home not her custody.
So mom leaves Cleveland, embarks on a new relationship and has a new daughter. In her interview, the mother's foremost concerns seemed a)explaining that she never gave up hope, despite not having done the legwork to demonstrate it; and b) introducing her 10 year old to Michele. She made it about her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 405||05/10/2013|
Michelle's mother sounds like she suffers from narcissistic personality disorder. Michelle is much better off staying the hell away from her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 406||05/10/2013|
Is it true that they ARE doing facial reconstruction on Michele?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 407||05/10/2013|
I feel so bad for all of these women.
I think that Michelle will have the hardest time adjusting to everything, and it doesn't seem like she has a very supportive family.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 408||05/10/2013|
I think that's what the grandmother reported, r407
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 409||05/10/2013|
[quote] That wasn't the point. The point is that they are accessible to people with very limited means, especially with pay as you go plans and many people who are very poor do have them.
"Many very poor people" have blackberries because you allegedly saw ONE "homeless" person with one.
And 10 years ago, when Michelle Knight disappeared, very poor people did not have blackberries that they used for asking family photos.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 410||05/10/2013|
"Michele Knight's case is just awful. Her teen pregnancy was, apparently, the product of a gang rape"
I feel so horrible for her after being raped as a teen and then abducted as a young adult. It's nice to know that she has a friend in Gina.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 411||05/10/2013|
She was the oldest, right?
I wonder if it all she played, the "mother" role for the other two and subsequently, took the brunt of the beatings to protect them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 412||05/10/2013|
Well, well, well. Refurbished cellphones are distributed and minutes paid for by a homeless organisation. Raw Story reported:
[quote] Remember the Michelle Obama-homeless shelter-cell phone brouhaha from last month?
[quote] My hometown paper writes about this rich homeless people and their gaudy cell phones:
[quote] But officials at Dayton homeless shelters say that the clients who have cell phones are usually the ones who are the most serious about finding employment and housing.
[quote] “Cell phones for the homeless isn’t a wacky idea at all and it’s not a luxury at all,” said Tina Patterson, executive director of The Other Place day shelter. “It’s a good tool.”
[quote] In fact, The Other Place has a program to distribute used, refurbished phones to homeless people and provide them with pre-paid phone cards. “As long as they’re following their plan of looking for housing and employment, we’ll keep adding minutes,” Patterson said.
So this has nothing to do with whether or not Michelle Knight's mother could afford a cellphone for taking photos of Michelle [italic] ten years ago [/italic] .
(Ten years ago I didn't have a cellphone with a camera and I lived on the UES. I had a low cost Virgin contract and the phone didn't have a camera.)
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 413||05/10/2013|
Ramsey didn't show up until Amber was already across the street and making the 911 call.
He obviously lied.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 414||05/10/2013|
Where did you read that R414?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 415||05/10/2013|
R414 gets it. R410 is too busy rolling his eyes to actually take the time to research subsidies for lower income people.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 416||05/10/2013|
Meant R413. Oops...
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 417||05/10/2013|
Michelle's grandmother's beard is scary.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 418||05/10/2013|
Well, it's obvious that she didn't seem to have a stable or caring home, so it's not a surprise that there weren't at on of pictures of her.
BUT an argument could be made that for some in lower income brackets, access to a camera might be hard to come by. No one is saying that it's impossible that lower income people have access to cameras or camera phones, but it doesn't mean they ALL do.
Besides, we are talking about 10 years ago, and camera phones, if I remember correctly, were not common, or at least as common as they are today. I think flip phones were still the rage back then.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 419||05/10/2013|
R394, what...are you his agent? His lovechild?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 420||05/10/2013|
Poor people don't have the money to spend on cameras and Sear's portrait studio sittings. If they are chronically insecure in their housing then they probably don't have much more than they can throw in a garbage bag before sneaking out of an apartment they can't pay for. Not everybody on Earth lives their lives in a comfortable middle class way. Severely dysfunctional families have other priorities than scrapbooking. They are in survival mode all the time.
I worked with homeless people and they need cell phones to keep in touch with case managers and parole officers as well as being able to give a phone number on a job application and housing. Pay phones aren't readily available anymore and you can't stand by a phone all day waiting to see if you have housing or a job.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 421||05/10/2013|
I grew up on the near West Side, and there were school photos every year, and they would give you a contact sheet for free. When the kids of the striking Ford and Chevy workers were on government cheese, they got a free picture at school. The mother is an evil opportunistic cunt, as bad as Castro.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 422||05/10/2013|
Michelle's so called "mother" should stay in Florida where she belongs. I'm sure the mother wants that money and I hope someone steps in and protects Michelle from that vulture.
What causes facial hair like her grandmother has? Medication?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 423||05/10/2013|
What kind of mother kicks a 14 yr old boy out of the house. If that bitch makes a move to try to get her declared mentally incompetent, maybe they ought to put the mother on trial for neglect. The court of public opinion and tell that bitch to back off.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 424||05/10/2013|
The mother sounds like some piece of work. DELETE DELETE DELETE.
Several people told Anderson Cooper that Ramsey didn't come on the scene until Amber was already out of the house and across the street.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 425||05/10/2013|
I hope someone keeps Knight's mother at bay. Ship her back to Florida. She sounds like a piece of work
What a tragic life that poor girl has had. I pray she finds happiness
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 426||05/10/2013|
Where did Michelle go? And it sounds likeshe REALLY does not want o see her family.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 427||05/10/2013|
According to that story at R427, that means Michelle wasn't chained up either? Were any of them found chained?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 428||05/10/2013|
Is there a charity for them?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 429||05/11/2013|
Any Key Bank takes donations, it's called The Courage Fund, 100% goes to Amanda, Gina and Michelle.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 430||05/11/2013|
Michelle went to Gina's house, they will take good care of her. Gina has a nice, intact family with a lot of love to shower on her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 431||05/11/2013|
Is it true that Michelle is kinda slow?
Her family said she has the mind of a child.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 432||05/11/2013|
R431, where did you read that? The article at r437 says she did NOT go to Gina's. and considering her family is hanging around that house hoping she shows up, I doubt she would.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 433||05/11/2013|
I hope someone helps her, and all of them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 434||05/11/2013|
So they weren't chained in the basement like everyone said at first? They were living on the second floor? Weird. I want to know what made that day different than any other day in the last ten years that she finally felt she could escape.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 435||05/11/2013|
People speculated that Amanda Berry's kid was just the right age to be convinced to get daddy's key or more likely, Berry saw the writing on the wall. The guy wasn't working and maybe he wasn't feeding them and they had an inkling that he was going to lose the house. What would he do with three kidnapped women? Doesn't take a rocket science to know that the writing was on the wall. Berry said it was the FIRST time she had the opportunity. We don't know if he left something open and the ladies realized he was really out the house. Apparently he used to play mind games where he pretended to leave and actually be there to catch them trying to escape and then they would be punished.
Steven Stayner said something about knowing that he was going to die when his kidnapper got the new kid. I think Shawn Hornbeck believed the same thing. These kidnapping victims must get so attuned to their torturers that they can pick up the subtle 'time is up' vibe given by the kidnappers. If they felt time was up the reaction would be fight/flight or freeze. Stayner and Berry took flight, Hornbeck froze and stayed in the house with the new kid.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 436||05/11/2013|
But R436 with the new information that's coming out, it doesn't sound like they were chained. At least Michelle wasn't, as she ran into the arms of the Police Officer who entered.
Also, you have to remember that not all of them tried to escape. Amanda is the only one that tried to get out. Gina and Michelle stayed in the house. The initial thought was that they were still chained up, but apparently not. I suppose if they were, you'd have to wonder why Amanda would free herself and leave them there.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 437||05/11/2013|
I didn't say that they were chained. I said 'key', meaning they were locked inside the house or in a part of a house. Once the cops got into the house they were no longer 'locked' in the house. Amanda most likely took the opportunity if her kid opened a door using a key she took from daddy and during a time Amanda thought Castro was really out the house.
The reports were that Castro played this game where he pretended to leave and if the girls tried to leave he would hurt them.
Once you beat a person enough, they won't leave the cage they are in thus why would the others try to leave if they were scared the guy was around or would 'get them'. That's the mind of a trapped victim. Berry likely felt she had a shot or she had to take the opportunity. She wasn't going to leave the girls there she was going to get them out when she got help. The others wouldn't leave until the help got there, most likely b/c they were scared as hell that Castro was lurking around waiting on them to try.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 438||05/11/2013|
They apparently watched TV and knew people were looking for them. That's likely why Michelle didn't want to see her mother and grandmother because there was no media coverage of her disappearance. She likely felt abandoned.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 439||05/11/2013|
I realize you didn't say they were chained. I was thinking about the chains because that's what the reports initially stated, that they were found chained to the ceiling.
And I posted earlier about Castro playing that game with them.
There's obviously a lot to this story that we won't know about for a long time.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 440||05/11/2013|
The reports I read said the police found chains, not that the women were in chains when they were found. He may have kept them in chains early on when he was training them, or the chains could have been used as punishment.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 441||05/11/2013|
The chains were probably just the early part of his special acculturation. Once they learned what he wanted to learn he didn't need chains.
Also, this was mentioned in the paper:
"Berry realized she had the opportunity to escape when her 6-year-old daughter, who was born in captivity, said Ariel Castro had left. "Daddy's gone to go see grandma," the girl said, according to reporter Scott Taylor."
and "Ariel Castro's son, Anthony Castro, said in an interview with London's Daily Mail newspaper that he now speaks with his father just a few times a year and seldom visited his house. He said on his last visit, two weeks ago, his father wouldn't let him inside.
"The house was always locked," he said. "There were places we could never go. There were locks on the basement. Locks on the attic. Locks on the garage.""
The guy must have fucked up (thankfully). The girls said they had no chance of escape until then so he must have left an open deadbolt or some key out where at least Berry was able to take the opportunity ('the first one' accd to her) to escape.
I wonder if anyone in his family suspected some of this weird shit. Accd to websleuths he took the little girl to see his mother and said the kid was his gf's kid.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 442||05/11/2013|
R442 They lived on the second floor. Anyone who came in the house would have heard footsteps.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 443||05/11/2013|
There were a few times when he did have people into the house. Before the guests arrived, he would take the women to the attic, tie them up, and put duct tape over their mouths.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 444||05/11/2013|
I'm wondering if Castro subconsciously wanted them to escape (because the house was in foreclosure and he would probably have had to let them go anyway), and that's why he left the front door unlocked. He'd always been so careful before.
Did he have a girlfriend? To pass the kid off as his girlfriend's, maybe he actually had one.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 445||05/11/2013|
[quote]Ramsey didn't show up until Amber was already across the street and making the 911 call. He obviously lied.
Who the fuck is Amber?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 446||05/11/2013|
R447 sounds like an idiot.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 448||05/11/2013|
Can you prove otherwise, R449?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 450||05/11/2013|
There are actually plenty of guys with convictions for wife beating who then stop drinking and drugging, go to AA and do the 12 steps. The domestic violence was connected to their screwed up drugging/drinking and once those guys get that part of it together, they atone.
You'd be surprised what you hear at AA and yeah, a number of people do turn a new leaf. That's why we call it wisdom. Some people gain wisdom and change, some people don't. If people couldn't turn a new leaf we would just lock everyone up on their first offense and never offer them counseling, drug rehabilitation, and all the other things that can help a person develop new/appropriate coping skills.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 451||05/11/2013|
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 452||05/11/2013|
And considering that his ex-wife who endured the abuse says that she forgives him and says that she's on "okay" terms with him because he has changed, I guess we can gather that at least some of his behavior has changed.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 453||05/11/2013|
He will make her sorry for talking to the press.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 454||05/11/2013|
The racist at r447 made a completely unfounded accusation, that Ramsey heard Amanda Berry's cries and what made him rush over there was not the desire to help her but to beat her! (Yes, it took me a few reads as well to work out that was what he was saying.)
There is absolutely no indication that Charles Ramsey tried to beat Amanda Berry and much indication that he tried to help her. Therefore, not only was the racist shithead talking shit in his post at r447, but he is trying to defend his shit with even more shit at r447, r449 and r454.
You are full of shit! And a complete moron!
(Does anyone understand the shithead's post at r90? "Technically, those boys did the girls a favour.")
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 455||05/11/2013|
It's very unfortunate what happened to those girls, although one thing I have noticed is those families seem rather trashy to me.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 456||05/11/2013|
Mother of Gina DeJesus on Ariel Castro: "I would hug him and I would tell him, 'God bless you.'"
Every last one of them is batshit!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 457||05/11/2013|
I personally think they are all in a very emotionally confused state at the moment, r459, and it's not for us to say what is "healthy" behaviour or what her daughter might or might not appreciate. I would also rather wait for the real information and situation to be better known than make snap judgements about what may or may not have been said. I also don't think it's anyone else's business what the families of these women say or do: they are the ones going through this, not you or me.
Yes, r456, these families are "trashy": they are poor, vulnerable families in fragile situations that it's easy to exploit, hence why their daughters were exploited. The most trashy people, however, are you, r457, etc. and r447, etc.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 460||05/11/2013|
I mean... ten years? I can't wait to find out how that was possible.
I'm the type of person who would plot constantly, 24/7 for the best, most foolproof way to pound his head into such a pulp they would have to check dental records to identify him.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 461||05/11/2013|
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 462||05/11/2013|
[quote]It's very unfortunate what happened to those girls, although one thing I have noticed is those families seem rather trashy to me.
And therefore, what?
Are you trying to imply that their "trashy" background was somehow enticing to their captor? Or that their alleged "trashy" appearances, behavior, or demeanor attracted and brought their misfortune upon them?
Why do you think it's unfortunate what happened to these girls?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 463||05/11/2013|
Perception isn't always reality R461. Regardless of the delusions you have about yourself there are many of us who just see you as unbelievably ignorant.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 464||05/11/2013|
R456 your post makes me sad.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 465||05/11/2013|
This whole story is so sad. How many others are out there?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 467||05/12/2013|
R467, that is a chilling and obvious question. I think of the small children and the elderly who are victimized too. Invisible people. Disposable people. Look at the 32 yr old. Michelle Knight. The girl who "fell thru the cracks." All this time she was fighting to just stay alive and the system had 'erased' her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 468||05/12/2013|
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 469||05/12/2013|
Maybe people don't have the right to that much privacy? I mean, if they're going to abuse it. Create their own little House of Horrors.
How about yearly inspections of homes, cars, RV's, boats?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 470||05/12/2013|
I wonder of Michelle Knight knows who her father is. Her mother just mentions a boyfriend (of the mother's) who was violent. There has been no mention of her father.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 471||05/12/2013|
What on earth is R470 babbling about?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 472||05/12/2013|
The naive idiot at R470 apparently thinks the police should be given carte blanche inspect everyone's homes and property every year, R472.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 473||05/13/2013|
SNL did a weird skit and featured Ariel Castro, but Bill Hader's character referred to him as "Mr. Ramsey" though the graphic on the screen said Ariel Castro. It wasn't funny.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 474||05/13/2013|
I agree with everything you said, R460. Excellent post!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 475||05/13/2013|
What's the latest?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 476||05/14/2013|
Castro is pleading not guilty. And his attys said he was a good father to the 6-year old.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 477||05/15/2013|
Not Guilty? Wonder what his defense will be? That they were willingly living there?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 478||05/15/2013|
Waste of tax payers' money. We all know he's guilty. They know he's guilty. The legal system should be set up in such a way that when things are so open and shut, so conclusive, there is no "plea."
There can be no extenuating circumstances to justify what he did. None. He is an animal. He needs to be locked up. I'm against state sanctioned capital punishment, but I wouldn't mind if any of those girls, or their family members shot that fucker.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 479||05/15/2013|
The police had gone to the house of those people who kept that one girl (forgot her name), the police left without finding the young woman. The police can not just go in on a whim and besides that, the wealthy have slaves to keep their penthouses (don't tell me they don't) no one would search a rich person's home, only poor people would be targeted.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 481||05/15/2013|
[R461]. According to the Daily Mail: 'Shaved heads, duct tape covering their faces and chained in stress position for years'
The article also states they were held like POWs. Pad locked doors. Chained from the ceiling. It is horrific.
Can't help but feel if the girls were from wealthier families and a "better" neighborhood the police would have done a lot more to find them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 482||05/15/2013|
r480, your ignorance is astounding. These girls managed not to lose their humanity over a decade of captivity. Amanda had the courage and energy to scream and kick when she saw an opportunity. The fact that they weren't all found mute and curled up in a ball is amazing.
Psychologically, people make statements like yours in order to feel a locus of control -- "this wouldn't happen to me because I'd ... do things." Guess what? Assuming you could get your teeth close to your captor's balls, he'd be ready for you (most likely, he would have yanked out all of your teeth, if you study forensic psych). I hope nothing bad ever happens to you. But, if it does, you'll learn a lesson.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 483||05/15/2013|
R480 (and several others like him on this thread) all think they're Mark Wahlberg.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 484||05/15/2013|
I am a woman. I have been attacked and hit over the head and had a 180 pound man sitting on me and the whole time I was fighting. Finally I sank my nails as deep in his arms as possible, all the time kicking and screaming. I know these girls apparently did not have that opportunity but I'm just trying to say, never go quietly, it will usually get you killed, at least leave a mark on them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 485||05/15/2013|
How do you know none of them left a mark on him, R485?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 486||05/15/2013|
Can't believe he's pleading not guilty and the lawyers are saying he's not a monster and there's another side to the story. So sick! Fucking scum.
I'm also going to admit that I agree with R470, about yearly home/boat/car searches. Or some variation of. As a citizen with nothing to hide, I don't care if someone needs to search my basement once a year to prevent this kind of thing.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 487||05/15/2013|
R470/ r487 = idiots who should be banned from surfing the Internet and voting.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 488||05/15/2013|
I don't know that they didn't fight but if a man shows up at work with fingernail marks all over his face some people might start to question him, or they/we should.
Many rapist will come from behind and you are pretty much helpless unless you can head butt him. I understand (and don't really want to) how horrible it was for these women and I'm not being unsympathetic in any way. I guess, I just feel like I would tell my kid to not listen to the threats and fight as hard as you can...in any way you can.
I doubt if I'm the only person here who has had to fight for their life.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 489||05/15/2013|
R480, what don't you understand about that man beating them ?? Quit posting stupid stuff. Everyone likes to think they will do something to level the playing field, to resist, to save themselves. But unless we are faced with the exact same situation, we don't know what we'll do. It's very likely they fought him, and he kicked the shit out of them several times a week for ten years.
The other thing that struck me from the quick glimpses we got of the victims, it looks like they were not large, physical imposing people.
This monster was on a power trip. This was about power. He brutalized them, beat them, chained them, raped them, starved them, and psychologically terrorized them to control them.
He was all about asserting his power. Look at what he did to his late ex-wife? He is a hideous filthy creature who should die.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 490||05/15/2013|
It amazes me that people will give up their freedoms so easily. Powerful people use the laws to harass anyone they don't like. We had a could of buildings come down and out of unreasonable fear, we were ready to live in a police state.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 491||05/15/2013|
I believe he is a hideous filthy creature. And probably you are right, R490. I guess I can't put myself in their place, I only know what happened to me and I only know what I did in THAT situation.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 492||05/15/2013|
R480, please kill yourself before you reproduce.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 493||05/15/2013|
[quote]We had a could of buildings come down
Surely you're not going to trivialize 9/11 like that.
I'm a New Yorker who saw the buildings come down and people die, who completely objected to Bush's opportunistic reaction and Patriot Act, and I STILL find your statement offensive and disrespectful to the "couple" .... of thousand people who lost their lives.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 494||05/15/2013|
Well, clearly the captives never lost hope and the Berry girl pounced. Sometimes you have to be smart and figure out what works. Sometimes all fighting will do is get you killed. Or worse. He could have maimed those girls.
This might sound corny, but I bet after first realizing she was pregnant, and going thru the horror of carrying and delivering that daughter, her kid gave her hope.
Her kid was her the incentive to escape. He would've done something horrible to that little girl, or taken her away from her mother. The older that kid got the more risk was involved.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 495||05/15/2013|
Well congratulations on surviving one situation, R480. Come back to us when you have to survive hundreds possibly thousands of attacks with only the threat of thousands more looming over you.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 496||05/15/2013|
What I'm curious to know is the little girl and how she had to have talked. She was 6 and she must have said something to someone outside that hellhole about her mother and the other two women.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 497||05/15/2013|
R480 doesn't realize that women can think like Mark Wahlberg. The kind of craziness that keeps people from being able to step outside themselves to comprehend that all experiences are not the same isn't restricted to men.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 498||05/15/2013|
I wonder how much of a fight R480 would put up if she were to have her eyes and mouth duct taped for days on end as she hung from chains on the wall and was deprived of food, as well. Or maybe it would be more incentive to fight if her head were chained to a wall for so long that she could no longer move it from side to side. These are great fightin' circumstances for a plucky heroine!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 499||05/15/2013|
Gee, I guess I offended a lot of people today, simply because when I was attacked, I fought back...sorry guys, next time I'll be more like you, a demure, little weeping girl.
Anyway, we bombed the hell out of many countries without thinking twice about it and when we had two buildings come down, we wanted to hand over all our freedoms (except guns). Pardon me but it just seems like America is the land of bullying cowards, especially you, R496.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 500||05/15/2013|
I never questioned why they hadn't tried to escape. Aside from the chains and other torture being a factor, there were three of them. Any act one of them committed might end up being hell for the other two. Isn't this just obvious?
Then when the child came along four years into the captivity, the child became a factor. Would you try anything that might enrage your captor if you thought he might take it out on the child?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 501||05/15/2013|
R480 thinks the elementary school kids whose bus Castro drove would report him for having marks on his face.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 502||05/15/2013|
I would tell my captor that I had a digestive disorder and required spinach every day. I would eat my spinach and then, like Popeye, I would get those really big arm muscles and I would hit my captor with a right hook and send him flying across the room and out the window, just like Bluto. Then I would run out the door and do a windmill with my arm and chunk him under the chin, which would send him flying up in the air, then he'd get wrapped around a tree branch.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 503||05/15/2013|
R497, I believe CNN reported the captives were not allowed to refer to each other by their real names when in the presence of the little girl. Castro was afraid of the little girl mentioning them while out and about in public.
I also recall a report stating that Castro would bring home food for the women and allow only two of the women to eat while the other watched.
Not enough adjectives in the English language to aptly describe this scumbag.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 504||05/15/2013|
Common sense would tell you that the child was never safe, no matter what you would do. As was said earlier, the guy is a monster. The child was never safe. As was mentioned, the older the child got, the more in danger it would be.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 505||05/15/2013|
These posts about why the women didn't fight back or what else they might have done to escape are getting increasingly ridiculous.
They were young and vulnerable when taken.
They were beaten, raped, starved and chained, kept isolated from each other much of the time.
To imagine that they kept rational wits about them, cleverly planning to take advantage of any slight opportunity to beat off this beast is ludicrous.
They managed to survive, that alone is admirable. As soon as Amanda had a reasonable opportunity she took advantage of it. Imagine what would have happened had he been on his way back and seen her at that window/door! She was incredibly brave.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 506||05/15/2013|
I believe spinach would have been the answer.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 507||05/15/2013|
I get where you are coming from 480 and I agree a bit. Americans are not used to suffering the same kind of atrocities that have happened in many countries including Europe. The Civil War was the last fighting on American soil and we have had some riots, bombing and a terrorist attack. Small compared to the hell we have unleashed on others.
But don't call bullshit when you have some on here showing compassion for these women as captives and supporting them in staying alive and relatively healthy. After all, these girls knew they were only a short way from their own homes. It is not like they were taken to another state. All they needed to do was to get out the front door and they'd practically be home. Why risk getting maimed or killed when you are so close and just need the right opportunity to get free?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 508||05/15/2013|
Are you saying spinach would not have worked, R506? That was the only suggestion that I read.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 509||05/15/2013|
Apparently there were no windows in the house! Were they shuttered?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 511||05/15/2013|
ff for R510
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 512||05/15/2013|
[quote]Gee, I guess I offended a lot of people today, simply because when I was attacked, I fought back...sorry guys, next time I'll be more like you, a demure, little weeping girl.
I don't think anyone is saying that, R480. What we're saying is that your experience is not the same as these captives. It is offensive when someone claims that his or her experience is somehow global and that everyone else should act the same in totally different circumstances.
For all we know, each of the captives fought with all her might, but he had the upper hand from the beginning. If he's like most predators, he was well prepared to hunt and capture.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 513||05/15/2013|
The windows were covered with paper and plastic. That was established early on.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 514||05/15/2013|
R511, The windows were removed and replaced with wood.
If you caught the CNN photos (acquired from a neighbor) of Castro's back yard, you can see rolls of barbed wire laying around the yard, heavy chains, a mirror attached to the back door so as to see those coming up the driveway and other repulsive items. What a sick fuck.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 516||05/15/2013|
Most of you seemed angry that I had the ability to fight back and I did. It made some of you furious that I'm not in lockstep with all the handwringers. Of course, I have nothing but compassion for these women but I have the right to say what most police will tell you...fight till your death, because more then likely, the monster is going to kill you anyway.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 517||05/15/2013|
OK R517, we get it.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 519||05/15/2013|
Complete change of subject here. I wonder what Castro was spending his money on when he was a bus driver. The Plain Dealer listed his wage as nearly $20/hr. Along with what he made playing gigs, he had enough to pay what was probably a very small mortgage (he bought the house for some ridiculously low amount, less than $30K) and property taxes. Yet he was in arrears for his taxes a couple of years before he was fired from his job. The care and feeding of the women was pretty minimal.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 520||05/15/2013|
[quote]Gee, I guess I offended a lot of people today, simply because when I was attacked, I fought back...sorry guys, next time I'll be more like you, a demure, little weeping girl.
You're an idiot. Seriously.
And with that statement, you just reduced those three women as "weeping little girls" because following your logic, they should have fought back and gotten away. Because they didn't keep fighting for 10 years they're just "weeping girls."
Shut up already. You're embarrassing yourself.
You have no idea what happens in other people's situations. And are you to stupid to figure out that 1) you don't know if these particular women fought back and 2) THREE of them couldn't get away from him. That tells you that this guy in particular was always prepared and one step ahead of him.
He was obviously more ruthless and demented than your assailant.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 521||05/15/2013|
R517, I don't want to get too personal but were you lured or were you attacked. These girls were lured by Castro, not jumped from behind.
He preyed on their trust and their mistaken belief that one of their friend's (Gina) father would ever want to harm them. Or the lie that Amanda worked with his son at Burger King.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 522||05/15/2013|
No, R517 gets it. No one is attacking her for fighting back. She's being attacked for her stupidity to not understand that some people don't have the opportunity or some people DO fight back and the person attacking is just stronger than them and they DONT get away.
R517 is too stupid to just shut up and be grateful she got away and not judge others for what happens to them.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 523||05/15/2013|
Yes, that's precisely it, R517. We're very angry at you jealous, as well.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 524||05/15/2013|
Well they didn't know he was a monster r517. He was their friends father. By the time they knew they were in trouble they were probably not in a position to help themselves. This is different then a stranger snatching you on the street. You don't see the danger until it is too late. They were just taking a ride from a kids dad that they knew, who maybe made a little detour to his house before dropping them home.
Dahmer's victims went home with him willingly, they were hookups they wanted to get fucked. They weren't thinking "I wonder if this guy is gonna try and turn me into a zombie, fuck my corpse and eat my flesh."
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 525||05/15/2013|
R520, school bus drivers don't work long hours. It's certainly not a full-time job.
I keep reading that people are horrified he was allowed to be around children, but school districts have a very hard time filling those positions.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 527||05/15/2013|
Did they ask if they could leave? Maybe they never asked, and that's the confusion.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 530||05/15/2013|
R480 (Marketta Wahlberg) is determined to make this thread about her.
Go away, Marketta. Like a previous poster said, you're embarrassing yourself.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 531||05/15/2013|
The windows were boarded up.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 532||05/15/2013|
What's scary, and incredible, is how many strikes he had against him BESIDES taking these girls, beating and torturing them for ten years. He wasn't some boy scout leader who everyone loved. He beat is wife to death, he was creepy with everyone who entered his home, scaring people with blow up dolls and had mirrors where you wouldn't normally see them. Kept doors locked all over the house. Was a hoarder. He had numerous strikes against him as a bus driver, yet kept his job over and over. No family or 'friends' ever called him out? Amazing that nobody was able to put him behind bars or search his house. He really got lucky up until now. Ten years later. I wonder if he was to be arrested during that time, if he would have let the girls die in the house locked up or if he would have told someone they were there.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 533||05/15/2013|
Hahaha! No R521, I was reducing YOU to a weeping little girl. You would have never made it through what these young women went through. You can't even stand to have someone disagree with you. You stamp your foot and make ignorant and foolish remarks, simply because someone dares to debate you. Go tell mommy that someone refused to consent to your boorish and bullying comments...perhaps she will pat you on the hand and give you a cookie.
I see that you want to bully me off the board but it won't happen.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 534||05/15/2013|
I don't know much about the Dahmer story, except how tragic it was that one of the boys got away but the police, gave him back to Dahmer. It makes me ill to think about it.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 536||05/15/2013|
I feel like a person should be able to make a very simple comment, without being attacked. Apparently you disagree, R536?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 537||05/15/2013|
sad to think r537 is a woman.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 538||05/15/2013|
+1 for r535. Bravo!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 539||05/15/2013|
R537 is a blowhard male posing as a woman on the internet.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 540||05/15/2013|
I have often thought of that too, r536. I wonder how the cops felt?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 541||05/15/2013|
Claims to be a woman, R538. I doubt it's true. The increasing attack level and language used makes me think it's more likely to be a male troll, also that it doesn't go away but keeps fighting us.
Maybe I would prefer to think it's a troll instead of someone who actually thinks this thread is all about him or her. There's a lot of freaky paranoia in the posts accusing us of being angry because s/he fought back. Major craziness.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 542||05/15/2013|
There actually is at least one "libertarian" woman on DL, who might be penning these 'I would have fought back' posts.
It fits her MO.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 543||05/15/2013|
It would be fun to bully you, you crazy damn bitch.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 546||05/15/2013|
And exactly why do you deem me crazy? Because I had the nerve to call you out on your narcissistic attitude, R546?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 547||05/15/2013|
I'm really starting to sympathize with someone's attacker (and I don't mean Castro).
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 549||05/15/2013|
I called you crazy because of all your posts accusing us of hating you for defending yourself. You're here to fight, not discuss. We get it.
If you read back through what you've written you come across as being nutty as the proverbial fruitcake.
This is the last time I'll respond to you. You're a waste of time.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 550||05/15/2013|
R543, "C. Ramsey" Another one of your numerous posts adding absolutely nothing of value to the conversation.
Why don't you take a break from the keyboard. I hear Ariel is having a Get to Know You BBQ in his 9 x 9 cell. Enjoy!
Back to the topic at hand: Many posters believe that Castro would have eventually harmed his daughter, yet one of his adult daughters (Gregg?) said he was such a loving Dad and Grandfather. The weird part of her interview was she also stated that Castro had (paraphrasing) "..stomped on her mother as if she were a man." Is this compartmentalizing typical of children raised in abusive households?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 551||05/15/2013|
Good. With your continued insults, I felt like I was in a shit storm.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 552||05/15/2013|
Sounds to me as if she has a bit of her father in her.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 553||05/15/2013|
R534 really is stupid. Too stupid to use Trolldar and keeps referring to all the people saying anything against "her" as one person.
By the way, you're right. We are ALL upset that you fought... but only because you got away.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 554||05/15/2013|
For goodness sake! Will the poster who fought her attacker please just stop already.
Please stop responding to accusers, you're derailing the thread. Go join "C. Ramsey" at the BBQ. kaithxbai.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 555||05/15/2013|
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 558||05/15/2013|
My apologies, R557, illiterate posts all look alike to me.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 559||05/15/2013|
No, R560, I'm not calling you a racist; I'm calling you repetitive and tiresome.
Save your energy for the real battles in life. And please don't respond with more anger by telling me I should not tell you what to do.
I'm done. And, no, I'm not trying to be dismissive, I'm just bored with your off-topic rants. Ignore people who upset you, you'll live longer. (And that includes me, if you wish :))
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 561||05/15/2013|
omg will the fighter get the fuck out of here and go find someone to pummel?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 562||05/15/2013|
It's really clear now. R560 had it coming.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 563||05/15/2013|
I don't want to pummel anyone, you are the one in a rage. Do you feel the need to pummel people who like to stand up for themselves? Interesting.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 565||05/15/2013|
Yeah r565 et al, whatever. But you're still insisting on making this thread about you, and you just need to lay off.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 566||05/15/2013|
I finally had to chime in like the poster above, after following the increasingly crazy argument you have engendered.
If we all say you were right, that you are a fearless fighter who has not said one thing amiss in this thread, will you then just leave it fucking go?
really, just chill
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 567||05/15/2013|
Girls, girls! You're both annoying trolls!
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 568||05/15/2013|
Or maybe we just all agree to ignore it completely, no matter what stupidity comes out of its mouth.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 569||05/15/2013|
"Back to the topic at hand: Many posters believe that Castro would have eventually harmed his daughter, yet one of his adult daughters (Gregg?) said he was such a loving Dad and Grandfather"
You would be surprised how many abusers, serial killers, and other terrible people can be kind to their own family members but treat everyone outside of their family like shit.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 570||05/15/2013|
Didn't he used to "abduct" his daughters despite a restraining order? I am willing to bet there was some sort of abuse going on with them. The daughter probably blocked it all out.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 571||05/15/2013|
It's already been posted here, but in an interview, Charles Ramsey said that when the little girl was taken out of the house she just kept screaming she wanted her Daddy.
Castro's son has said that growing up, there were always places that were off limits like the basement, garage, etc. Everything was always locked up and they never had access to those areas. I wonder if any part of them suspected something was up or did they just grow up thinking that was normal.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 572||05/15/2013|
"eventually" harmed the daughter?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 573||05/15/2013|
Will the fighter chick please have a nice big glass of SHUT THE FUCK UP!
She is nothing more than a troll trying to make this about her. We don't give a shit bitch.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 574||05/15/2013|
If his adult kids are talking about how there were always places that were locked and off limits, it begs the question, IMO, how many other hostages did he have stashed away, and where are they now?
There's still at least one little girl from that area who has not been found. Her family said they believe she was abducted by that pig. Sorry but I have no confidence at all in the Cleveland police and the Ohio state police. I want the FBI to come in and really investigate and dig up that damned yard that he had covered with tarp.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 575||05/15/2013|
I agree. When I heard that he has been like that for decades, I wondered how many others he had done it to all while his family was living in the house.
Even if his son hadn't said that, I would still have assumed this wasn't Ariel's first go around and doing this. You don't just start off holding three women against their will like that... you start off much slower.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 576||05/15/2013|
I wondered why this thread was up front when there seemed to be nothing on the news. Now, it's obvious that it's all a big nutso fight with nothing about the people in Cleveland.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 577||05/15/2013|
A woman who survived a similar horror is posting heartbreakingly insightful comments about the psychology of captivity on rawstory.com. If anyone really finds it difficult to understand how captives can't just up and escape or overpower the captor, please read her testimony. In part, she writes:
"So for someone who thinks maybe the victim "wanted this" and that's why she didn't try to escape. Imagine yourself at a young age, blindfolded, naked, restrained and at the absolute mercy of a man like this. If you think you would try to escape or resist. God be with you if you are ever kidnapped and stick to your hubris."
I recommend people read her comments - at the end of the article.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 578||05/15/2013|
Sorry, can someone explain the Mark Wahlberg references? I haven't been able to read the posts for the past several days, and seem to have missed something about that.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 579||05/16/2013|
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 580||05/16/2013|
[quote]Will the fighter chick please have a nice big glass of SHUT THE FUCK UP!
Though I would have said "shutty."
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 581||05/16/2013|
Hahahaha! Nope, I ain't going to shut up. How about you?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 582||05/16/2013|
Don't you think the case is kind of like Gacy? I mean Gacy killed, desolved(?) buried his victims in his house, all the time his wife was there but said she knew nothing? It's a bit hard to believe.
All his family members knew Castro had strange behavior...locking up rooms, covering windows but no one said, "Maybe our brother is having a mental problem?" And why was his family not angry with him over the treatment of his wife? I'm thinking something may be a little off about the whole family. When I saw the brothers on TV, I did think they might have below average intelligence.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 583||05/16/2013|
[quote]All his family members knew Castro had strange behavior...locking up rooms, covering windows but no one said, "Maybe our brother is having a mental problem?" And why was his family not angry with him over the treatment of his wife? I'm thinking something may be a little off about the whole family. When I saw the brothers on TV, I did think they might have below average intelligence
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 584||05/16/2013|
[quote]Hahahaha! Nope, I ain't going to shut up. How about you?
That's fine you don't have to shut up, but you should shift the focus from you and your specific case.
Now, the questions you raise at r583 are more interesting and perhaps more relevant to the purpose of this thread.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 585||05/16/2013|
One of my high school friends works in apartment property/leasing management. She told me that they had a crazy person working in the office who went through apt. application files looking for residents who had no family listed ("friends" listed as contacts were seen as a sign the resident was estranged from her family). He then sold that info to a kidnapper. She tells her friends that they should list "extensive" family members as contacts -- that they never check beyond the primary contact (and, even then, it's only in the case of an emergency that they'd check).
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 587||05/16/2013|
I think an argument can be made that those that were close to Castro, his family, his brothers, etc...
If they have always known him to be odd in a manner that has him locking doors, etc. They might just think he has some sort of OCD. It's something you might think is odd but never equate to it being about him kidnapping and holding women captive as sexual slaves. If one of your own family members or friends was doing that you wouldn't necessarily equate it with something sinister.
Besides, when youve spent your whole life around someone who does odd stuff like that, something about it becomes normal, or at least normal behavior for them, and you stop seeing it as weird.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 588||05/16/2013|
I guess you are right R588 but his brutality with his wife...why overlook that? Maybe we all ought to look at odd behavior a little more closely? Perhaps we should be more curious about a locked room?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 589||05/16/2013|
Can someone please start Part 2 of this thread and link it here soon?
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 590||05/16/2013|
Castro paid $12,000 for that dump at a foreclosure sale. It had a tax lien on it for unpaid R.E. taxes.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 591||05/16/2013|
The combination of his history of brutality, all the locked doors and his refusal to allow family members entry into his home, probably all seem like red flags in retrospect. The family of people like Ariel Castro are probably accustomed to living with a great deal of denial.
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 592||05/16/2013|
The missing three women found in Cleveland pt 2
thread started by request
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 593||05/16/2013|
|by Elizabeth Smart||reply 594||05/16/2013|