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Has anyone noticed that beautiful women enjoy going after really homely men

Like Madonna, she has enough star power to date Alejandro Fernandez, Chris Brown, Brad Pitt, etc. And she chooses the mostly homely looking guy ever: her personal trainer Carlos (can't even remember his last name). He's not even rich.

What the heck.

by Anonymousreply 10703/28/2013

What a random list of guys. At least two of the men you list are "spoken for" and/or much too old for Madonna (Fernandez and Pitt are roughly 40 and 50.)

by Anonymousreply 103/02/2013

It's been said she just "lays" there. There, I said it.

by Anonymousreply 203/02/2013

Who is Carlos? Are you talking about the father of her daughter?

by Anonymousreply 303/02/2013

On what planet is Madonna "beautiful", OP?

by Anonymousreply 403/02/2013

There is a certain thrill of giving yourself up to someone uglier than you. Just as there is a certain thrill of having someone much more beautiful than you.

by Anonymousreply 503/02/2013

I must be beautiful, then, because homely men always come after me.

by Anonymousreply 603/02/2013

Madonna never was beautiful.

by Anonymousreply 803/02/2013

At the time they were together, Carlos Leon was, more attractive than Madonna. Not less.

And still is.

by Anonymousreply 903/02/2013

Madonna looks like a dog, OP. No one is going near that thing unless she pays. She's dating underaged male models and dancers.

by Anonymousreply 1003/02/2013

It's all about control for someone like Madonna.

by Anonymousreply 1103/02/2013

Madonna likes to be dominated sexually but other then that...she needs to control everything.

by Anonymousreply 1203/02/2013

Everyone here must have slept with Madonna.

by Anonymousreply 1303/03/2013

Madonna was neither good-looking when it mattered nor after that.

by Anonymousreply 1403/03/2013

Guy Ritchie was attractive and sexy.

by Anonymousreply 1503/03/2013

Sometimes ugly men just seem smarter & funnier and have a lot more personality than their more handsome counterparts. People like Javiar Bardem, Steve Buscemi & William Dafoe come across as very interesting people. Ugly people try harder.

by Anonymousreply 1603/03/2013

Wow. This could have potentially been an interesting thread.

If the OP wasn't retarded.

by Anonymousreply 1703/03/2013

I say as she ages a woman should go for less attractive men, especially if they're younger than her. You don't want to look like crap next to him. Robin Wright knows what she's doing; she'll always be hotter than her men. Women like Madonna want to be the prize. She should marry some hideous old billionaire who adores her just because she's famous and younger than him, and cheat with the young hottie gold diggers she employs. Dating men closer to her daughter's age makes her look like an old fool.

by Anonymousreply 1803/03/2013

IMO Carlos was not homely.

Gurl, women are the best liars. They want you to think they enjoy going after the homelies, and that these guys are satisfying their sexual needs. Thats like saying most gay men like small cocks. Most of these "beautiful women" are getting hot dick on the side anyway. Kris Kardashian, the pregnant publishing slut from New York, and Larry King's ex wife are just a few women that were married to rich homely men. They got nailed by other studs that laid them so well that forgot to keep covering up their messy ways.

by Anonymousreply 1903/03/2013

Yeah, that was why JFK jnr never got laid.

by Anonymousreply 2003/03/2013

Madonna was never beautiful, now or when she was young. That is not to say she was ugly. She is average.

A lot of women don't want to be with men that look better than them. Some women think ugly men would be more devoted since they should be grateful so simply be with them(although ugly men are not less likely to cheat). Plus some women will take financial security over looks.

by Anonymousreply 2103/03/2013

Also the idea that beautiful women go after homely men is not really true. Most women and men end up with people of the same level of attractiveness. It is just that we notice more when an ugly man is with a beautiful women. Especially since wealthy ugly men go after very attractive women. If a man doesn't have a lot of money or fame, it is unlikely he will be with a women much more attractive than he.

by Anonymousreply 2203/03/2013

On the flip side, what famous handsome men go after really homely women?

by Anonymousreply 2303/03/2013

Pierce Brosnan

Hugh Jackman

by Anonymousreply 2403/03/2013

Leanne rhimes is less attractive than Eddie cibriani(sic).

by Anonymousreply 2503/03/2013

Simon Baker(lead actor on the mentalist) is with a homely woman.

by Anonymousreply 2603/03/2013

This article called Dating Down points out a few things.

A recent study published in the Journal of Family Psychology suggests that for women, dating a less attractive man may result in a happier, more emotionally satisfying relationship.

After analyzing the tapes, researchers discovered that in couples where the man was more attractive than the woman, he said often things such as, “This is your problem, you deal with it” whereas the unattractive hubbies were more apt to say things like, “I'm here for you — what do you want me to do? How can I help you?'"

considering there's a shortage of hot guys to go around these days, say researchers at the London School of Economics, the exchange between a lovely and a not-so-lovely works out perfectly. “An evolutionary strategy programmed into our DNA dictates that attractive people have 36 percent greater odds of having a daughter than a son,” says Satoshi Kanazawa Ph.D., a professor of management at the London School of Economics and Political Science.

If nothing else, you may find that your not-so-pretty man brings his A-game in the bedroom. “What I've seen from my clinical practice is that women who are married to men less attractive than them often have happy sex lives most likely because their mate tries harder to please them sexually,

by Anonymousreply 2703/03/2013

The OP maybe off with Madonna as "beautiful", but he's right about beautiful women in real life going after average looking guys. It's usually the fraus and unattractive, fat girls that squeal about the hunks.

A friend of mine who's guilty of this says its because quite a large chunk of the female population are capable of finding traits in a man such as intelligence, sense of humour, wealth, power etc all attractive over a man's looks. It's why you'll see some women going for men that remind them of their father, sports-obsessed slobs, or even bad boys or guys with a tendency for violence. Men, on the other hand, are only attracted to the physical.

by Anonymousreply 2803/03/2013

I've noticed this amongst my straight friends, the funny guy gets laid a lot more than the good looking guys (who are almost always dumb or not very interesting). Women will scream their lungs out at a chippendales show, but only straight men will want to marry a stripper.

by Anonymousreply 2903/03/2013

Never noticed it.

by Anonymousreply 3003/03/2013

Ugly guys with big money $$$ get lost of beautiful women. Until they run out of money.

by Anonymousreply 3103/03/2013

And, yet, the interesting thing is that when women have affairs, they often cheat with men who are better looking than their husbands.

by Anonymousreply 3203/03/2013

[quote]Also the idea that beautiful women go after homely men is not really true. Most women and men end up with people of the same level of attractiveness. It is just that we notice more when an ugly man is with a beautiful women

I think this is true. Most women we see in the media are in full costume; their makeup and hair have been styled, they have on clothes that transform a lackluster shape into one that is attractive. Women are masters of going from bombshell to frump, and frump is what the husbands have sex with. So a lot of these couples are equally matched. With men, what you see is what you get, for the most part.

by Anonymousreply 3303/03/2013

20 years ago, Carlos Leon was a personal trainer and I recall some shirtless shots of him. He was not unattractive. People age (Madonna for instance, who never started out as a beauty).

Carlos may not be a stunner now, but I'd say agree he was better looking than Madonna. Still is.

by Anonymousreply 3503/03/2013

They go for money, status, and characteristics of their fathers.

With exceptions. I go for opposite characteristics of my father.

by Anonymousreply 3603/03/2013

Guys that do well with women know how to TALK. They know how to have conversations, be engaged and interested. The most handsome guy in the world who cannot talk -- who is awkward, shy, immature or humorless -- will not do as well as the average looking guy who can talk.

It's true!

by Anonymousreply 3703/03/2013

r32. Of course they'll cheat with a better looking guy if they aren't being sexually satisfied in their relationship, but never as a long-term prospect.

I don't care what anyone says, many of the most popular celebrities objectified by women aren't that much to look at: Current sex symbols George Clooney, Justin Timberlake, Leonardo DiCaprio, Usher, Ryan Gosling, Robert Pattinson ... none is out-of-this-world handsome.

Meanwhile, Britney Spears, Beyonce, Rihanna, Katy Perry are the stuff of fantasy for straight guys.

by Anonymousreply 3803/03/2013

[r38], of course, male celebrities aren't very attractive in most cases. Standards for men's "good looks" are so laughably low whereas the beauty fascism for women is truly horrifying.

On this board, homely looking men, old male crones are regularly talked into much more than what they really are whereas women's looks are torn apart. Any opposition will be met with hostility bordering lunacy. The old "men age better than women" without any actual factual evidence is on its way out without the majority of posters being aware if it, apparently.

It doesn't mean that women don't prefer or want attractive men; but women still don't have the power to tyrannize men with their ideas of what a hot man should look like and have men abide. Who knows, might change over the next 50 years but I think current and past conditions are a reflection of who's in charge and nothing else.

by Anonymousreply 3903/03/2013

[quote]It doesn't mean that women don't prefer or want attractive men;

No one's saying they don't, so why is there no massive fanbase for male models who mostly only have their looks going for them?

[quote]The old "men age better than women" without any actual factual evidence is on its way out without the majority of posters being aware if it, apparently.

Yet 50 somethings like Depp, Pitt and Clooney will continue to top many more women's sexiest lists than any of the younger, better looking guys out there.

[quote]but I think current and past conditions are a reflection of who's in charge and nothing else.

Men may be in charge, but they're not the ones stopping women from making big names out of male models like straight guys have with Kate Upton or Jessica Alba. Alba's male equivalent would be someone like her Blue Crash costar, Paul Walker, who's ass remained firmly stuck in the C-list.

by Anonymousreply 4003/03/2013

This is a "reverse female Damon". While Matt Damon is not beautiful, he is (was) handsome. At his peak he married a somewhat homely woman when he could have had beauties and bimbos. He may cheat on her, but he's stayed with her.

by Anonymousreply 4103/03/2013

"Men may be in charge, but they're not the ones stopping women from making big names out of male models like straight guys have with Kate Upton or Jessica Alba."

Jessica Alba isn't really a "big name", neither is Kate Upton.

by Anonymousreply 4203/03/2013

Yeah, like my mother marrying my father--what a horrible mistake that was.

by Anonymousreply 4303/03/2013

[quote]Guys that do well with women know how to TALK. They know how to have conversations, be engaged and interested. The most handsome guy in the world who cannot talk -- who is awkward, shy, immature or humorless -- will not do as well as the average looking guy who can talk. It's true!

I believe this entirely. Even if a woman is relatively shallow, a guy who knows how to be engaged and interact can make her feel good or special. These positive feelings can soon turn into "Hmm, he's kind of cute..." or noticing attractive features that wouldn't have stood out in what at first glance is an "ordinary" guy.

Attraction is such an interesting and funny process sometimes.

by Anonymousreply 4403/03/2013

"While Matt Damon is not beautiful, he is (was) handsome."

I'd call him average. His wife and he are well matched physically.

by Anonymousreply 4503/03/2013

This is from R27's link. This makes no sense from a genetic perspective.

[quote]“An evolutionary strategy programmed into our DNA dictates that attractive people have 36 percent greater odds of having a daughter than a son,” says Satoshi Kanazawa Ph.D., a professor of management at the London School of Economics and Political Science. “Due to this evolutionary process and because physical attractiveness is highly heritable, there tends to be more beautiful women in the world than there are beautiful men.”

There's no theoretical reason to believe that "attractive people" produce more female offspring. XX and XY, regardless of looks, are going to produce girls and boys at roughly a 50/50 ratio during fertilization.

He's a professor is business and political science who does not seem to have consulted with geneticists or population specialists.

Or am I missing something here?

by Anonymousreply 4603/03/2013

Ugly men still think they're entitled to have a beautiful woman.

by Anonymousreply 4703/03/2013

"Has anyone noticed that beautiful women enjoy going after really homely men"

ENJOY???

by Anonymousreply 4803/03/2013

DL is at its most entertaining when it weighs in on perceived phenomena in the straight world.

by Anonymousreply 4903/03/2013

Matt Damon can go from average to handsome depending on his appearance for a role. He gains or loses weight and works out or pigs out for a role. His wife, on the other hand, is below average. She looks like a rabbit.

by Anonymousreply 5003/03/2013

R47 the problem is, they never get one. Beautiful women, even average women, do not seek out dumpy guys with such unrealistic expectations. Unless they're worth $$$ it.

by Anonymousreply 5103/03/2013

It needs to be said once again. Madonna's ex Carlos remains a very good looking man.

by Anonymousreply 5203/03/2013

"Yet 50 somethings like Depp, Pitt and Clooney will continue to top many more women's sexiest lists than any of the younger, better looking guys out there."

Because of their high status. I saw a documentary about "sexual attraction" a while back. Women were asked to rate the same men but were given different descriptions as to their professional/financial status. You guessed it, the same men were rated higher/lower if given higher/lower status.

by Anonymousreply 5303/03/2013

[quote] She should marry some hideous old billionaire who adores her just because she's famous and younger than him

It's too late for Madonna to marry someone older than her.

by Anonymousreply 5403/03/2013

r37 I honestly think the score is about even for socially awkward studs and not so attractive guys that are really interesting and engaging. Please do not buy into that bullshit that women care less about physical appearance. They care less AFTER you get to know them. I work in a office full of young women and they are just as fickle as men, if not more. The good looking guy will get way more opportunities because women go after these guys first. The outgoing, not so attractive guy might have a higher percentage of success, only because the over all number of women who have given him the opportunity are fewer.

by Anonymousreply 5503/03/2013

What I notice more, and more, is the (unassuming) hot man, with the Frau wife. Live outside of Chicago, and see these handsome, built guys, with these overweight, blowzy women - usually 2 or 3 kids in tow. All I think is, the guys go to the gym every day, and stay in shape for their mistresses, or girlfriends on the side. You can't tell me these hunky guys are crawling on top of these 200 lb. women - theyre totally being wasted. The guys usually have no idea how sexy they are.

by Anonymousreply 5603/03/2013

my theorie on this: hot dudes won't hit on them because they are so beautiful that they might turn them down. and that would be embarrassing, their friends would laugh, their egos get bruised. and let's be real: they would fight for attention. but that means that beauty feels lonely...then ugly guy comes, and since he's got nothing to lose, bruise or whatever - he chats her up. she is thrilled that at least SOMEONE is talking to her (and she remains the center of attention) that she falls for the homely guy. voila.

by Anonymousreply 5803/03/2013

You've got it reversed Op. Sean, Warren, JFK jr, Tupac, Carlos, Guy, A-rod, Jesus, and Brahim are all better looking than Madonna. Madonna is ugly. The makeup and glamour make her look halfway decent. Her men are almost always better looking than her. Of course, there are hundreds of more guys we aren't accounting for but still I think it's safe to say that in most of her flings, the guy was the looker.

by Anonymousreply 5903/03/2013

Carlos Leon looks like he should be in the fields picking grapes. OTOH her new honey is much more attractive. However, Lourdes looks exactly like Carlos Leon poor thing.

by Anonymousreply 6003/03/2013

Sean Penn is UGLY.

by Anonymousreply 6103/03/2013

What you say? Chris Brown?

Thread deleted.

by Anonymousreply 6203/03/2013

[quote] I honestly think the score is about even for socially awkward studs and not so attractive guys that are really interesting and engaging. Please do not buy into that bullshit that women care less about physical appearance. They care less AFTER you get to know them.

But the fact is, women care LESS about physical appearance than men. The world is choke-full of examples. Unlike women, there is little chance a man would find traits like intelligence, humor or being intresting and engaging more attractive than bombshell looks. Trophy wives are an industry unto themselves and celebrities like Kim Kardashian have made it big soley on their highly sexualised physical traits (I can't think of a male equivalent).

Like has been mentioned before, the bar for male attractiveness is ridiculously low. Women scream their heads off at average guys like Matt Damon or Robert Pattinson. Magazines like Playgirl were largely driven by gay men and the most physically beautiful men (models) don't have it as good as their female counterparts.

by Anonymousreply 6303/03/2013

"But the fact is, women care LESS about physical appearance than men."

I really don't think so. Why do you think so many married women don't want to have sex anymore? Because they can't get it up for their flabby fat husbands/partners anymore.

by Anonymousreply 6403/03/2013

JFK, Joe DiMaggio, Arthur Miller ... what did Marilyn Monroe find most attractive? Power? Fame and status? Intelligence? And don't tell me Kennedy was a handsome man, he was average at best. The other two were plain ugly.

by Anonymousreply 6503/03/2013

"JFK, Joe DiMaggio, Arthur Miller ... what did Marilyn Monroe find most attractive?"

She famously had orgasm problems being with the same guy over an extended period of time.

by Anonymousreply 6603/03/2013

The time in a woman's life when looks matter more than anything else is tween, teen and early college years. Then they start to go after the sports stars and pre-med guys. An unattractive guy will feel as entitled and be competitive for a beautiful woman as much as a handsome man. The same can't be said for unattractive women.

by Anonymousreply 6803/03/2013

I noticed this with the British, but in the opposite. I saw some very attractive men with the most god-awful looking women.

I once saw a guy who looked like Martin Milner kissing a woman who looked like Camilla Parker-Bowles' uglier sister.

by Anonymousreply 6903/03/2013

R69, in the States, I noticed that among military couples. Often the men are, thanks to their training and activity, relatively fit while their wives, who stay behind, get fat and ugly. I'm quite certain if the men had not been in the military, they would have been as fat and unkempt as their wives.

by Anonymousreply 7003/03/2013

I've also noticed "dangerous" men usually have their pick of beautiful women. Beyonce has money, fame, looks and could have far better looking male celebrities but she married Jay Z. Chris Brown isn't the cutest but he has Rihanna.

by Anonymousreply 7203/03/2013

We don't go after them, they go after us.

by Anonymousreply 7303/03/2013

Never noticed this phenomenon at all.

by Anonymousreply 7403/03/2013

Charlize Theron is probably one of the most beautiful women in the world. Seems to have a brain and a personality too. But her boyfriends have always been decidedly average.

by Anonymousreply 7503/03/2013

Some homely men offer marriage and security to snare a beautiful girl. Personally I've learned to avoid homely men, as I'm sick of having to listen to their put downs of more attractive people as "born privileged." They refuse to accept that beautiful women tend to focus on eating healthy food and exercising to stay in shape, and spend lots of money to maintain their looks.

by Anonymousreply 7703/03/2013

DL superstar AnnE Hathaway with very, very, average husband Adam Shulman.

by Anonymousreply 7803/04/2013

Another picture of AnnE and hubby. I know she's hated here, but pay attention to their body language ... these two are obviously deeply in love and into each other in a way I rarely noticeable in most celebrity couples.

by Anonymousreply 7903/04/2013

Final picture of AnnE and hubby because they so prove the OP's point. She's a glamourous movie star, rich enough to have her pick of hot toys. What does she see in him? He's not rich, handsome or powerful. His wikipedia says he studied theatre in college and designs jewellery so obviously he's artistic (read interesting) and just from the pictures, he seems so nice ... almost too nice for La Hathaway. But look how happy she looks in this picture.

by Anonymousreply 8003/04/2013

r40 Women don't have any power over who has a movie/tv career since most producers and studio heads are MEN.

by Anonymousreply 8103/04/2013

Did you see Dateline or 48 Hours this weekend?

An unattractive fat slob of a husband had two women - his wife and a mistress - and he killed the wife.

He was hopelessly unattractive, fat, and someone who not only killed his wife but also swindled great sums of money from friends and relatives. A total slob.

Yet he had two women devoted to him both of whom were fairly attractive.

Very weird.

by Anonymousreply 8203/04/2013

Beautiful women do not go AFTER homely men. Often, the homely men have some kind of currency to win over the women: power position, money, popularity, fame, good sense of humor, sensitivity, chivalry, etc. If he treats her well and endears himself, he tends to become more attractive to her beyond superficial looks. Conversely, there are also handsome jerks who lose their charm w/ boorish behavior, or have little drive or ambition, which is unappealing. Evolution supposedly posits females sought and mated with men who could be providers and protectors.

by Anonymousreply 8303/04/2013

r83 Exactly.

by Anonymousreply 8403/04/2013

I remember an insider saying that when people in Hollywood hook up with someone much less attractive, it's often because they don't want a beautiful spouse getting more attention than them, LOL. It makes a sad kind of sense.

by Anonymousreply 8503/04/2013

I think beautiful people who are emotionally mature realize how little looks mean. Unless a person has gone to a gifted cosmetic surgeon and designed one's face, it's about genetics. Luck of the draw.

Looks, like money, are more important to those who didn't always have plenty of it.

by Anonymousreply 8603/04/2013

[quote]Women don't have any power over who has a movie/tv career since most producers and studio heads are MEN.

Which is why these male studio heads are shoving everyone from Bieber and Timberlake to Depp and One Direction down our throats. Look, these people have been made stars by WOMEN of all ages and demographics (tweens, teens, fraus) who pay for their product. The studio heads can't make a career if no one's buying. A lot of far more handsome (talented, even) men are languishing in the Z-list because they're deemed "too pretty" that women find them unappealing.

by Anonymousreply 8703/04/2013

Many great looking men have no sex appeal. It seems that men like pretty more than women do. Women think in terms of sexy and attractive more. I've met stunning looking men who just seem soft and uninteresting. No sexual charisma. I'm just as shallow or aesthetic and don't look for security or money. It's just that pretty doesn't equal sexy much of the time.

by Anonymousreply 8903/04/2013

r87 I think it is more complicated than that. While the men/boys you mentioned are popular with women, they have a PR machine behind them. If the MALE movie and TV heads allowed Paul Walker and other pretty boys and handsome men to make it they would be just as successful.

by Anonymousreply 9003/04/2013

Women go for less pretty. They've learned that a lot of the really good looking guys are either gay or empty headed.

Men don't care if someone is stupid just as long as they're hot.

Different priorities

by Anonymousreply 9103/04/2013

R66, she had orgasm problems because neither she nor her partners knew what a clitoris was.

by Anonymousreply 9303/04/2013

[r93]: nope, she could get off only for a while with the same guy.

by Anonymousreply 9403/05/2013

Looks do matter to women - any good-looking guy who's watched women go to pieces around him knows this. But for many different reasons, women usually don't prioritize looks over absolutely everything else, at least not for an actual relationship. For a one night-stand, looks may be the number one priority, but for a serious relationship... if he's got a great personality, sense of humor, intelligence, and the means to be a good provider - yet has average-to-homely looks - most women would be practical and choose him over his stunningly good-looking but dumb-as-a-post, dull-as-dishwater, debt-ridden counterpart.

However, if the two men were identical in every way, possessing exactly the same qualities and attributes EXCEPT for looks, no mentally or emotionally healthy woman would choose the homely man over the good-looking one.

by Anonymousreply 9503/05/2013

The celebrity straight guys want to fuck the most right now is Kate Upton. She's become a sex symbol and can have any guy she wants. This is who she's , obviously he's not a dog and he's a baseball player and is quite sexy in his own jock way, but I wouldn't call him especially handsome.

by Anonymousreply 9603/07/2013

Women are weird. For some, a guy having a wife or girlfriend increases his attractiveness exponentially. The nerd who kissed Bar Rafaelli in that Super Bowl ad much to the disgust of the shallow public says he's had completely strange pretty girls try to kiss him by force since.

by Anonymousreply 9703/07/2013

DL, You're generalizing again. I've seen very handsome men with plain looking girls and the reverse. Sometimes it's about who has the power in the relationship. Perhaps one has sexual fetishes the other is willing to accommodate, or shares special interests outside the bedroom. Many beautiful people just want to be adored by another, who will always meet their needs and be dedicated to them.

by Anonymousreply 9803/07/2013

Handsome men with plain women is unusual and will always draw a reaction. Average guys with beautiful women isn't as unusual and usually draws pats in the back and high-fives.

by Anonymousreply 9903/08/2013

Society just doesn't judge men that harshly based on looks. Good looks are not necessarily a priority for women looking for men, except for height. Women seek powerful men who will offer them security and status. Looks are secondary. In fact, the notion of a "homely man" is not even a thing in society.

by Anonymousreply 10003/08/2013

[quote]It's all about control for someone like...

by Anonymousreply 10103/08/2013

If a handsome man marries an average woman, like Hugh Jackman and his wife, people start to think something is wrong and start thinking he must be gay.

by Anonymousreply 10203/12/2013

Considering that gay men are often just as harsh and judgmental about women's looks as straight men are, I find that to be flawed logic.

by Anonymousreply 10303/12/2013

Gay men are harsh and judgmental about men's look too.

by Anonymousreply 10403/12/2013

some people are not as shallow and morally bankrupt as you are. deal with it.

by Anonymousreply 10503/12/2013

A man can be not conventionally good-looking or ugly even but still considered sexy. Not calling him ugly, but there women on the internet obsessed with Peter Dinklage. They're writing porn about him, calling him the sexiest man alive and hating on his wife. He's like a typical sex symbol. You don't get straight men jerking off to little women.

by Anonymousreply 10603/28/2013

Peter Dinklage and wife.

by Anonymousreply 10703/28/2013
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