Serving up this steaming pile of
Celebrity Gossip
Gay Politics
Gay News
and Pointless Bitchery
Since 1995

LAPD CAUGHT: 'Burn This Motherfucker!' During Dorner Siege

Scanner audio apparently broadcast by the Los Angeles CBS affiliate KCAL on Tuesday captured angry officers yelling to “burn this motherfucker” prior to a cabin fire that is thought to have burned the body of fugitive ex-LAPD officer Christopher Dorner.

In a video recording posted to YouTube on Tuesday, the anchor pauses to let the viewer hear the mostly-inaudible scanner traffic.

“Do it right now,” one voice says. “Fucking burn this motherfucker!”

“Police officers, understandably upset,” the anchor explains.

A separate recording of scanner traffic — which has not been verified — features officers talking about going forward “with the burn.”

“All right, Steve, we’re gonna go — we’re gonna go forward with the plan, with — with the burn,” a male voice on the recording instructs. “We want it like we talked about.”

“Seven burners deployed and we have a fire,” the voice later adds.

“Copy,” a female voice replies. “Seven burners deployed and we have a fire.”

“Guys, be ready on the number four side. We have fire in the front. He might come out the back,” a male voice says.

As the Modesto Bee noted last year, there is one type of incendiary tear gas canister call a “burner,” which can start fires when deployed.

A statement from San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon on Wednesday said that burnt human remains had been found in the Big Bear cabin where Dorner was thought to be holed up, but the body had not yet been identified.

“Investigators have located charred human remains within the debris of the burned out cabin,” McMahon said.

Dorner, who served as a Los Angeles police officer from 2005 to 2008, is suspected in the killing of four people, including a San Bernardino County Sheriff’s deputy, a Riverside police officer and the daughter of a former LAPD captain.

Dorner has claimed that his dismissal from the force was due to racism.

KCAL did not respond to Raw Story’s attempt to verify its broadcast by the time of publication. The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department has not commented on the cause of the fire.

Watch this video from KCAL, broadcast Feb. 12, 2013.

by Anonymousreply 26902/18/2013

For shame

by Anonymousreply 102/13/2013

So fucking disturbing. I'm choosing to believe they thought he would run out so they could shoot him firing squad style.

by Anonymousreply 202/13/2013

This guy did not flip out for no reason - he must have known about plenty of corruption - for which we will conveniently now never know the truth.

by Anonymousreply 302/13/2013

Screw him...he killed several of their own and would have done more.. burn him indeed.

by Anonymousreply 502/13/2013

What a world we live in.

They burned the man alive.

by Anonymousreply 602/13/2013

I'm surprised the N- word was not used in these burn requests.

by Anonymousreply 702/13/2013

Police always act as if someone who kills a police officer is a hundred times worse than someone who kills anyone else. As if their lives are far more valuable than any other lives.

by Anonymousreply 802/13/2013

R6, He probably shot himself. Whether it was to prevent being captured alive or to prevent being burned alive, we will never know.

by Anonymousreply 902/13/2013

Judge and jury...and it's even documented.

by Anonymousreply 1102/13/2013

Did you actually think they wanted to take him alive? They were shooting at civilians without regard because they thought their vehicles looked like his. This is not a surprise in the least.

by Anonymousreply 1202/13/2013

[quote]I'm surprised the N- word was not used in these burn requests.

But that would be WRONG!

And R9, the cops were pushing the suicide story the minute that cabin went up in flames, so take it with a grain of salt.

by Anonymousreply 1402/13/2013

I'm sorry, but I have a real hard time feeling sympathetic about someone who kills an innocent young woman, then calls her father and taunts him about her death.

by Anonymousreply 1502/13/2013

Entirely understandable. Killing cops is bad enough. Killing their children is pure evil.

by Anonymousreply 1602/13/2013

Who would've thought DL would take the side of a murdering cop? Strange.

by Anonymousreply 1702/13/2013

... and killing him was pure evil as well.

by Anonymousreply 1802/13/2013

R17 which murdering cop, the original one or the murderers who burned a man alive?

They are ALL murdering cops.

by Anonymousreply 1902/13/2013

[quote]... and killing him was pure evil as well.

And how would YOU have handled the situation?

by Anonymousreply 2102/13/2013

Are they sure he didn't have hostages with him?

With their proven track record of disregard for the safety of LA citizens I doubt that would have stopped them anyway.

In any event, it's clear how law enforcement works if it's the families of the police that are threatened.

For the rest of us,not really a priority.

by Anonymousreply 2202/13/2013

[quote], then calls her father and taunts him about her death.

Hadn't heard of this.

by Anonymousreply 2302/13/2013

Everyone sucks in their own way in this situation, and there are a bunch of dead people as a result. Dorner may have had a legitimate grievance with corruption in the LAPD, but that doesn't justify him killing people that didn't have anything to do with his situation. I'm tired of certain people on my facebook page making him out to be some sort of martyr or political hero and being called an "Uncle Tom" or "Sellout" for not rushing to his defense. LAPD is known for their bullshit, and I'm not shocked that Dorner is dead. He knew he was a dead man walking the moment all this went down.

by Anonymousreply 2402/13/2013

Forty years of professional SWAT training out the window to satisfy the blood lust of conscience-deprived nuts like R24

by Anonymousreply 2502/13/2013

[quote] A man claiming to be Dorner called Randall Quan and told him that that he "should have done a better job of protecting his daughter," according to the documents.

[quote]In his 6,000-word "manifesto," Dorner named Randal Quan, a retired LAPD captain and attorney who represented him before a police review board

by Anonymousreply 2602/13/2013

He had it coming, and he may have committed suicide before he burned to death. He calculatingly murdered innocent people in cold blood. In this case, justice moved swiftly.

by Anonymousreply 2702/13/2013

To see police propaganda and media cooperation in all its lurid glory, at 10AM, local LA stations will air the funeral service of the poor cop in Riverside.

From reports, it is clear that the poor cop never knew what hit him and is a victim in the classic sense, but watch the police and media inflate him into a hero of iconic proportions.

by Anonymousreply 2902/13/2013

This local sheriff apparently refused any help from LA swat team or any Federal help - FBI, etc. The whole week he turned it down and minimized the situation. And then when he gets the guy cornered this is how he deals with it. America at its saddest.

by Anonymousreply 3002/13/2013

Self-defense is the only excuse for bringing harm to a suspect. Present risk to police/authorities or the public. That was not the case with this cabin. No matter what the suspect did.

by Anonymousreply 3102/13/2013

Considering Dorner's track record of taking innocent human lives (4 or 5 now?), it would appear that he was under the spell of blood lust and acting on it all the while justifying it as an exercise in morality. Does this sound familiar?

by Anonymousreply 3202/13/2013

So?

by Anonymousreply 3302/13/2013

Also pretty sure it was the San Bernardino police not the LAPD.

by Anonymousreply 3402/13/2013

R25 - What are you talking about? I don't have any bloodlust either. I think the whole situation is tragic all around and there was something that caused the man to snap. I think the whole story is a lot more complex than what the media/LAPD is telling, and yes, I agree that there are a lot of cops who do believe that their lives are more valuable than others, but that still doesn't justify what Dorner did. And me not being surprised at how this ended doesn't mean that I'm glad he's dead either. Calm down before you start typing more nonsense.

by Anonymousreply 3502/13/2013

I knew they would never take him alive. The cops are more interested in revenge rather than justice.

by Anonymousreply 3602/13/2013

Is this real, will tmz have the tapes soon???

by Anonymousreply 3702/13/2013

R32 - So what you're saying is that he was giving the cops a taste of their own medicine? Were you happy that he killed the daughter, who had nothing to do with his situation with the LAPD? Or are you just typing abstract nonsense to make yourself sound deeper than you are?

by Anonymousreply 3802/13/2013

Nobody is taking sides.

Wrong is wrong. I am not condoning the guy's actions but it is just wrong for policing authority to burn a human being alive.

by Anonymousreply 3902/13/2013

His admitted brain injuries and PTSD made him different, and too unpredictable.

So the latest is his mother watched the whole event on T.V. while munching on chips and drinking wine?

Did she not love her son at all?

by Anonymousreply 4002/13/2013

Sorry you failed the IQ and reading tests, R38. I was being quite concrete.

[quote]Were you happy that he killed the daughter, who had nothing to do with his situation with the LAPD?

Did you not notice "innocent human lives?" She was not excluded from my count of victims.

by Anonymousreply 4202/13/2013

[quote]So the latest is his mother watched the whole event on T.V. while munching on chips and drinking wine?

It was surreal? A KCAL reporter stopped by the bar and chatted with the Mom, not realizing who she was. Mom said she didn't know Dorner

The bartender watched Mom chat with her friends until the interaction with the reporter, and then she became more fearful about having her identity known than for her son.

by Anonymousreply 4402/13/2013

[quote]He shot himself after they bombarded him with teargas

They said he shot himself. They said it over and over and over. For those of us who watched it live, it is clear the cops are embellishing the story. They locked down Twitter and the scanners after a while but too late to hide the differences between the truth and the stories they are pushing now.

by Anonymousreply 4502/13/2013

So if his mother is so callous as to be seen partying while her son is dying in a fire than there it is, there's your profile of Dorner.

Unloved by a cold mother, overreaching in his need for approval, with an inability to handle rejection.

No wonder he was paranoid--I bet his mother beat him every day. He probably retained his first head injury from her.

Wow--this whole case gets sadder and sadder. Now I'm very interested in his childhood upbringing.

by Anonymousreply 4702/13/2013

R45 is right about the scanners. I was on Twitter yesterday when this was unfolding and several journalists with access to police scanners who had been listening to them noticed that they suddenly went silent at one point.

by Anonymousreply 4802/13/2013

Isn't it a matter of finding the frequency they changed to on the scanners?

by Anonymousreply 4902/13/2013

He probably bought his cunt mother her house too. Mrs. Dorner was kicking back some Chablis while watching her son burn to death on television.

by Anonymousreply 5002/13/2013

r3 Another person bringing up all the corruption that he knew about and was killed for. This shit with him all went down four years ago. He had four fucking years to enlighten us about the LAPD but he didn't, so that's kind of his bad. When he does get a chance to write a manifesto and have people read it, it's mired down in celebrity shout-outs and starfuckery. I guess if he had something important to say, he should have said it in the time he had.

by Anonymousreply 5102/13/2013

Here's the story about Dorner's mother.

Channels 2 and 9 say that reporter Michele Gile walked into La Capilla Mexican Restaurant in La Palma around 3:30 this afternoon. She was in the area to report on Christopher Dorner's mother, who lives nearby, and had gone into the restaurant to use the bathroom. Passing through the bar, Gile said she chatted with a woman drinking white wine and eating chips and salsa who was watching the breaking news on Dorner from the Big Bear area on TV. The woman and her female companion said they knew nothing about Dorner. Gile then drove to the mother's home. About ten minutes later a woman identified by neighbors as the mother drove up and went inside — and yes, it was the woman from La Capilla.

"Right after you left, she got nervous," bartender Joseph Munoz later told Gile. "She started asking me questions, like if I knew (Dorner)…what I know about him…stuff like that. She was watching the TV, but she wasn’t really concerned about it. She was busy talking to her friend, like it was just an everyday thing.”

by Anonymousreply 5202/13/2013

r50, is a fa lying queen who hates his mother and women

by Anonymousreply 5402/13/2013

"Who would've thought DL would take the side of a murdering cop? Strange."

Yet r17, it is not strange at all. The media will not report it but to many people's surprise, the sympathy for Dorner is a certainly not limited to Datalounge. He is almost like a folk hero to some.

by Anonymousreply 5502/13/2013

Republicans and NRA members have sympathy for the wrong people.

by Anonymousreply 5602/13/2013

Killing him was not evil at all. He was determined to die and to take as many with him as he could.

by Anonymousreply 5802/13/2013

[quote]Self-defense is the only excuse for bringing harm to a suspect. Present risk to police/authorities or the public. That was not the case with this cabin. No matter what the suspect did.

Not the case? Are you fucking insane? He had just shot two deputies from that cabin, killing one of them.

by Anonymousreply 5902/13/2013

I'm glad he's dead but also think those cops are killers, too. Justice wasn't served in this case. He should have been brought to trial if at all possible. The killer cops weren't out for justice for this killer ex-cop.

by Anonymousreply 6002/13/2013

I bet it turned out he was dead by suicide before the fire started. They heard a single shot inside the cabin when the operation began.

by Anonymousreply 6102/13/2013

What a bunch of sick fucks on this thread. I don't think there's any conspiracies. I was watching live and you heard a single shot and then the fire started.

Second, if they did kill him, so the fuck what? He had already stated his intent to kill as many cops as possible. He held two innocent ladies hostage. He carjacked a guy and shot two officers. The two cops he shot, were laying on the ground for a long time because whenever someone tried to rescue them, fucking Dorner shot at them.

Who are the idiots saying the cops shoud've walked in blind to handcuff him? That's insane and suicidal.

by Anonymousreply 6202/13/2013

I don't know how to link so am not sure if this will work but this is his facebook fan page:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/158963710924464/?fref=ts

You can see that it's full of fans who can't even agree amongst themselves and start arguing about race often.

by Anonymousreply 6302/13/2013

r59 Nails it. He was shooting at them and engaging in several gun battles. He shot two officers yesterday killing one. I say that is pretty fair to call self defense. Come on, do you think he was going to sit down for girl scout cookies as the officers advanced? maybe offer them some milk? It's just amazing more weren't hurt in this mess.

by Anonymousreply 6402/13/2013

Killing him wasn't evil. He killed 2 innocent people, then a cop, then shot at 2 cops and killed one of them. Who needs a jury? The person inside the cabin had just killed someone who was a cop and would've gotten the death penalty. Saved the county a lot of money. He was an asshole, I don't care if there was corruption, killing a bunch of people isn't the answer. And, I believe we're too lenient in this country, if you kill anyone you deserve to die.

by Anonymousreply 6502/13/2013

[quote]Who are the idiots saying the cops shoud've walked in blind to handcuff him?

Link please. Where did anyone say this?

by Anonymousreply 6602/13/2013

To paraphrase Brenda Nicol in 'The Executioner's Song', "Gary, you killed someone on Monday, you killed someone on Tuesday, I wasn't gonna wait around and see what you did Wednesday."

by Anonymousreply 6702/13/2013

r68, He would not have surrendered you idiot!!! Now go burn your hood down

by Anonymousreply 7102/13/2013

Then leave r70

by Anonymousreply 7202/13/2013

R72, you are an idiot

by Anonymousreply 7302/13/2013

[quote]how do you know the women were ladies?

They were cleaning ladies -- they are always ladies, as are sales ladies.

by Anonymousreply 7602/13/2013

R65,

I don't care if there was corruption, killing a bunch of people isn't the answer.[/quote]

Nor is dismissing those who complain of corruption by calling them "Mary!," blaming them, taunting them as "losers," etc.

It's similar to other cases of workplace violence where some boss fires someone callously, and you know they'd have thought twice if they had known what they consequences would be.

It's like the high school shootings where the shooter was bullied for years. The shooting wasn't the answer, but neither was ignoring the please of the bullied for so long.

As for why killing a cop is worse than killing a civilian, an attack on a cop *is* an attack on all civilians. Anyone who would kill a cop sure as hell wouldn't think twice about killing anyone.

by Anonymousreply 7702/13/2013

If there is an investigation to look at procedures,(doubtful) they may find that certain things were not done correctly. They will hold a couple people responsible. Life goes on. The culture that sanctions these excesses will prevail.

by Anonymousreply 7802/13/2013

[quote]Anyone who would kill a cop sure as hell wouldn't think twice about killing anyone.

He didn't -- he tied up his hostages or let the guy whose trucj he carjacked not only leave, but take his dog.

Dorner wasn't interested in killing civilians -- only people with badges (or their kids)

by Anonymousreply 7902/13/2013

[quote] Dorner wasn't interested in killing civilians -- only people with badges (or their kids)

SO he basically killed civilians. Last time I checked, the offspring of LO were not, in fact, LO.

by Anonymousreply 8102/13/2013

If the idiots were gonna riot in L.A. it would have already started.

by Anonymousreply 8202/13/2013

What were the cops supposed to do?

Who knows how many other people he would have killed?

by Anonymousreply 8302/13/2013

[quote]Dorner wasn't interested in killing civilians -- only people with badges (or their kids)

You forgot to add people who were dating the children of cops too.

by Anonymousreply 8502/13/2013

[quote]Dorner wasn't interested in killing civilians -- only people with badges (or their kids)

So children of cops aren't civilians?

by Anonymousreply 8602/13/2013

There won't be any riots r80 -- the huge wave of illegals in the past twenty years fragmented and dispersed the black community in LA.

by Anonymousreply 8702/13/2013

The blacks will riot

by Anonymousreply 8802/13/2013

r88 read r87 again

by Anonymousreply 8902/13/2013

r90 If that Aurora dick had gone on the lam for 5 days I am pretty sure he would have been killed too. He was willingly arrested right away.

by Anonymousreply 9102/13/2013

I blame video games. The cops have been playing too many violent video games.

by Anonymousreply 9402/13/2013

I guess Primetime is off now that the racist loons are back.

by Anonymousreply 9602/13/2013

[quote]If you want people to respect the law,if you want to lower the crime rates, if you want people in the communities to trust andcooperate with cops, and you want to maintain order, you act like you deserve that respect.

Yeah, right. This is how the world works.

by Anonymousreply 9802/13/2013

r97 Aurora clown also didn't shoot at the cops. If you fucking engage in gun battle with the cops, odds are you will not live to be arrested. See: North Hollywood shootout

by Anonymousreply 9902/13/2013

I am not suggesting that Dorner is a sympathetic figure. I am not focussed on Dorner per se. I am focussed on the LAPD and whther they behaved correctly in this situation. I don't think they did.They had a barricaded gunman situation. Period. How did they handle it. Very badly. They were well aware that guy was armed. But consider this.

The interviewed the guy he carjacked. They interviewed the maids he tied up. They knew very well what he had with him. He was armed, yes. But I'd bet by the time they had him trapped in that cabin, they knew the kinds of weapons, in general they were dealing with.

This was a text book barricaded gunman situation with a heavily armed perp. he had no time to rig bombs. In all likelihood he may even have been woundedby one of the deputies he engaged. They had other choices besides burning him to death.

by Anonymousreply 10202/13/2013

R100 you need your meds adjusted.

by Anonymousreply 10302/13/2013

r102 -- the burn was by San Bernardino Sheriff's deputies. The LAPD has no jurisdiction over the standoff.

by Anonymousreply 10402/13/2013

r102 you are right, the LAPD does have problems with procedures and please don't think I am a LAPD apologist from my previous posts. I just know that shooting at any cops will probably get you killed. I think it was the San Bernadino cops who actually wound up ending this. They should have thought this might happen considering they knew where he was. I'm thinking that the SBPD was shocked that he actually killed one of theirs and just wanted to end this. I can see them being pissed but they are supposed to deal with things in a more professional manner.

by Anonymousreply 10502/13/2013

R88 and his Klan will party.

by Anonymousreply 10602/13/2013

Apparently, the guy he carjacked is an ex-cop. Good thing Dorner did't know that.

by Anonymousreply 10802/13/2013

R102 The LAPD was not there. It was the San Bernardino County Sheriff Dept.

by Anonymousreply 10902/13/2013

Sorry to go OT but we can use some levity, from the Dorner fan page, a total non-sequitir:

"Wow, riding down the road with the family and we are practicing math. I made the comment that math is the most important thing to learn, and Ashton says " I think god is more important". Jen just looks at me an smiles. He definitely got some get out of jail coupons."

by Anonymousreply 11002/13/2013

I don't really have a problem with this. He is a murdering loon.

by Anonymousreply 11102/13/2013

R62, I was watching live too and the viewers NEVER heard the gun shot. That was reported over and over but we, the viewers, certainly never heard it. Don't bullshit.

by Anonymousreply 11202/13/2013

I heard it, R112. One single shot. And then the smoke started.

by Anonymousreply 11302/13/2013

Wrong R112. I hate to take you seriously since you don't even have the facts straight, but not only did I hear it, the Today show was doing a recap of the whole thing and they played the single gunshot audio.

by Anonymousreply 11402/13/2013

Is R107 the deranged racist lesbian "posing as a gay man" troll?

by Anonymousreply 11602/13/2013

Why would there be riots? The two non-leo victims were black and half-black. He spared the lives of the probable latinas and a white guy and his dog.

He cares more about dogs than black people.

I am pinning his hatred of black people on his hideous mother.

by Anonymousreply 11702/13/2013

Dorners last girlfriend said he told her to act more white.

She is also a light-skinned woman with white features. Dorner hated black people.

He killed a young black man but spared a dog.

by Anonymousreply 11802/13/2013

The San Bernadino Sheriffs Department deserves an award for saving the state of California millions of dollars for serving up an instant death penalty.

You Dorner sympathizers have serious issues and need to take a long look in the mirror. Im sure if some guy with "grievences" murdered someone you care about you'd have similar sympathy for that murderer....right...right?

by Anonymousreply 11902/13/2013

The only riots will be in Vatican city, where the clothing stores have signs that say "Boy's pants half off."

by Anonymousreply 12002/13/2013

All lot of very terrible child abuse occurs in poor white and black families. There is a shared mentality of minding your own business with other people's children.

What many poor black and white mothers hand to their children is nothing short of scandalous, but again, it's just the 'way we do things' type of mentality that keeps mouths closed.

I am sorry that Mr. Dorner had such a callous and unloving mother. Even in her doterage she's still a class-A bitch, partying it up in a bar while her only son dies in a fire.

I am blaming her for this mayhem and the deaths of the victims.

by Anonymousreply 12102/13/2013

r121 Then I guess nobody will be blaming the actual shooter. On another site someone brought up the death of Quan and her boyfriend and someone else replied, "Take that up with her dad, it's his fault." Um, no it's not, it's the fault of the guy who murdered them.

by Anonymousreply 12202/13/2013

I'd like to correct myself and replace the word poor with the word uneducated.

And a woman (or anyone) can self-educate through reading and being open to ideas, so i'm not talking formal education.

I'm referring to very ignorant women who love making babies that they are not equipped to raise.

by Anonymousreply 12302/13/2013

I blame the shooter, absolutely, but let's have a good look at how these monsters are made.

We never talk about how so many people make for such inadequate mothers and fathers--it's like some sort of taboo in America.

by Anonymousreply 12402/13/2013

r124 Agreed, watch 'Teen Mom' sometime.

by Anonymousreply 12502/13/2013

[quote]We never talk about how so many people make for such inadequate mothers and fathers--it's like some sort of taboo in America.

Don't fuck with me, fellas!!

by Anonymousreply 12602/13/2013

[quote] "Take that up with her dad, it's his fault."

That is so fucked up. I guess they dont realize that her dad was actually defending him.

by Anonymousreply 12702/13/2013

The greatest taboo going in American culture right now is that we cannot question or assess the rights of parenthood for the uneducated and incompetent. This goes across all races, so don't fly your racist troll flag on me.

It is heterosexual privilidge that asserts that parenthood can nver be questioned, that if you are fertile, that you have a right to making any number of unplanned children, and that single males are no longer expected to marry their babies' mommas.

Yes, at one time there were racist controls over women's fertility, mostly Native American women. But those days are over, and incessant hetero fucking has become the national pastime.

I am sad, very sad for the future of this nation.

by Anonymousreply 12802/13/2013

R119 please. If someone close to me was murdered by a deranged gunman of course I'd nwant revenge. Of course I'd be angry. that's why there are police professionals and a criminal justice system. Otherwise we'd have anarchy.

Our justice system can't be based on vengeance and articulated in anger and emotionalism. I don't recall ever excusing Dorner's actions in anything I posted. In fact I've repeatedly said he was wrong.

I am also saying the police were wrong. And yes, the San Bernadino Sheriff's department was on the scene, but they were in constant communication with LAPD.

I repeatedly heard reporters comment that "everyone was here." It was a joint operation, in cooperation with feds, state and reps from other localities. This was a joint operation thru & thru.

This was a barricaded gunman and they had options. period.

by Anonymousreply 12902/13/2013

[post by racist shit-stain # 2 removed.]

by Anonymousreply 13002/13/2013

[quote] I repeatedly heard reporters comment that "everyone was here

Except LAPD, who at various news conferences throughout the day, emphatically stated that they WERE NOT on scene, that it was San Bernardino's operation, and that they would NOT go to the scene in Big Bear until asked by SB County Sheriffs to do so.

by Anonymousreply 13102/13/2013

r114, there was more than one feed, because I listened to that in real time and I did NOT hear the gunshot.

It is possible that different channels were giving different aspects.

They also did not tell him to surrender an any time that I heard. The scanner feed cut out, but I went back into the various archives and couldn't find anything not in the MSM that had it.

I am not in any way supporting Dorner's actions, nor am I a conspiracy theory extremist.

However, there is no question that he was killed by the LAPD. It was the LAPD, r109. They manned the APV; the SBCSD does not have that kind of equipment. Additionally, the LAPD press Commander stated that an Incident Commander from LAPD was on the scene in Big Bear.

The SB cops were given lead status because the initial incident with the truck involved them, and I heard that they insisted LAPD back off because they were worried about civilians being killed, and of course they knew the area/terrain best.

by Anonymousreply 13202/13/2013

r131, like the above poster, I am not supporting Dorner's actions, but their own press officer said they were in constant contact with LAPD brass, and they had an incident commander at Big Bear.

When they say they "weren't there" they are being disingenuous at best. The were not the lead agency, SBCS was.

Not only that, I would be shocked if a rural county sherriff's office had an APV with trained SWAT at its disposal.

They murdered a murderer. My only question about would be if they were legally clear because they were in "hot pursuit", i.e., they had a clear chain of invents, including officers down, that involved Dorner.

I know they are justified in crashing a door in other cases if hot pursuit (or whatever the proper term is) is claimed.

by Anonymousreply 13302/13/2013

events, not invents

Oh dearing myself

by Anonymousreply 13402/13/2013

[quote] I would be shocked if a rural county sherriff's office

SB county is not a "rural county." It is one of the LARGEST counties in the state of California, and is home to 5 different military bases.

by Anonymousreply 13502/13/2013

While the world is better off with Dorner dead, we have to look at the way the L.A. cops shot two innocent women and the other cops fried Dorner. They had no intention of allowing him to live. Cops (and ex-cops) can't be trusted.

by Anonymousreply 13602/13/2013

SB County is the largest county (land-wise) in the United States.

by Anonymousreply 13702/13/2013

R136 is correct.

by Anonymousreply 13802/13/2013

Another post from facebook, for comic relief:

"Most if not all of my friends are in the military. I know their training and their ways. I can't join anything because I have flat feet. So I know alot."

by Anonymousreply 13902/13/2013

"The greatest taboo going in American culture right now is that we cannot question or assess the rights of parenthood for the uneducated and incompetent. "

Don't try to make bad parenting a class issue, R128. I came from an upper-middle-class family rife with incest and abuse, and went to school with rich kids whose parents ignored them so badly they were practically feral.

I agree that the greatest taboo is telling people they shouldn't be parents.

by Anonymousreply 14002/13/2013

r137, Land area doesn't equal high density population policing tactics and equipment.

BTW, I didn't mean rural as an insult at all.

by Anonymousreply 14102/13/2013

[post by racist shit-stain # 2 removed.]

by Anonymousreply 14202/13/2013

As of 2012, estimated population of SB county:

2,065,377t

by Anonymousreply 14302/13/2013

So, putting the posts together, it is a relatively small population (c. 2 million) over a large area with big pockets of rural (i.e. minimally developed) terrain.

That's not the same as a high-density port city with an international profile and major airport.

The types of LEO equipment needed will be totally different.

Maybe they do have APVs, but honestly, that has LAPD written all over it. I've seen those vehicles at work in other operations.

by Anonymousreply 14402/13/2013

If they heard him shoot himself why did they need to let the house continue to burn?

I hope the owner of those cabins gets a fat paycheck.

by Anonymousreply 14502/13/2013

From fan page:

"his Lics and badge was found on bored and now say they found his lics in the cabin?"

and,

"didnt they find his wallet near the boarder a few days ago? "

by Anonymousreply 14602/13/2013

r145, I heard the audio.

The cabin was on fire *before* he shot himself. There is no question about this. LEOs threw the burners in, and they also planned it in advance.

The only reason he did so was because he didn't want to burn alive.

by Anonymousreply 14702/13/2013

[quote]If they heard him shoot himself why did they need to let the house continue to burn?

Yesterday, the LA Times was reporting that he was suspected of receiving material help from someone identified in court papers by initials. If he has a suspected confederate around, maybe they thought s/he was close by and working with him.

by Anonymousreply 14802/13/2013

I remember how the hijacker's passport was found on top of the rubble of the World Trade Center.

by Anonymousreply 14902/13/2013

Or, R144, they could have come from one of the many active military bases nearby. they didn't show up right away, it was a couple of hours or more before they made it to the location.

by Anonymousreply 15002/13/2013

r145, I was listening to the scanner.

They started the fires with burners before he shot himself. That was clear. They also planned it, that was on channel as well.

He only shot himself so he didn't burn to death.

They let it burn allegedly because they didn't know what he was carrying and it might have been booby-trapped.

They also, of course, would burn any evidence like another manifesto he had on him. They did not want anything left and they were also out for revenge.

by Anonymousreply 15102/13/2013

Well they abruptly ended their news conference tonight, because the exact question abut the burn came up, whether it was deiberate and discussed ahead of time, etc. and one reporter even asked them if, at anytime, they asked Dorner to surrender.

They also changed their story on the deputies who got shot saying they were ursuing him into the cabin and he engaged them in a fire fight. That wasn't how we originally heard it. Originally they were on the road chasing his truck.

They gave up nothing. They started out saying the manhunt was over,one deputy was dead, the deputies were all heros in a tremendous firefight at the cabin, and that Dorner was firing at them like a war zone. They spoke about him as if he were some huge war machine and they were out gunned.

This man crashed his own vehicle, and hijacked another. He crashed that one, and likely was wounded when he ran to the last cabin. Every stop he made, whether to change vehicles or to spend a few hours with the cleaning ladies, he left items behind.

He was never in that cabin with an unlimited supply of incendiary devices, or unlimited ammo. They could have waited him out.

Just looking at their expressions and their "fuck you"attitude tells me all I need to know. They clearly didn't like the line of questioning and ended the news conference. They knew they were vulnerable.

They also wanted to make sure they introduced the feds and state law enforcement people who were also there. It was obvious to me they were making sure they had cover for what they did. I hope the press fries them all.

by Anonymousreply 15202/13/2013

At the press conference, the SB chief denied they set the cabin on purpose and, as r152 noted, kept forcing a false narrative. Surprisingly, the press wasn't wussy and called them out on several points, then asked if Dorner was asked to surrender. That question made the chief shut down the press conference.

Another sore point that discomforted the chief -- how Dorner was able to spend a weekend in a condo the deputies supposedly searched. Now others from that condo building say that no deputies came around to check their units, either.

by Anonymousreply 15302/13/2013

He was dead man walking after he killed the first cop. Did anybody HONESTLY think he was going to be brought in alive from the beginning?

by Anonymousreply 15402/13/2013

Once they had him cornered in that cabin, they just needed to wait him out. They had the high ground and unlimited supplies and ammo. he had water in the cabin, but only a finite number of bullets and no food.

Also, the nearest cabin was a mile away so they didn't have to worry about others in the area.

by Anonymousreply 15502/13/2013

r152, while I basically agree with you, my question would be did he use the cabin as a cache/base before the cops cornered him there.

It's possible he just ran there due to the pursuit, but he might have tried to make it their deliberately.

The cops obviously did not do a thorough search of the area, as he was about 100 yards or less from their briefing post.

They could still be finding evidence (cached weapons, evidence of burglary, etc.) in that area for a while afterwards.

by Anonymousreply 15702/13/2013

The San Bernardino County Sheriff’s Department on Wednesday defended their cabin-to-cabin search for fugitive ex-cop Christopher Dorner.

Sheriff's officials have come under criticism for failing to find Dorner until two cleaning service workers stumbled upon a suspect resembling the fugitive. The suspect tied up the workers and fled. One of the workers escaped and called 911. Later, law enforcement officials spotted him and pursued him to another cabin, where he died after a shootout with police and a fire.

Sheriff's officials said they had extensively canvassed the neighborhood shortly after Dorner's burning car was found Thursday.

“We did an extensive search of that area,” said Sheriff’s Deputy Chief Steve Kovensky, who was in charge of the search effort. Kovensky said officials searched each cabin to determine whether it was secure, whether it had been broken into or if anyone was home when it was searched.

“All the cabins in that particular area had teams of deputies to check to see if there was any entry and if we could make contact,” Kovensky told reporters.

He said there were no signs of forced entry at the cabin on the 1200 block of Club View Drive and near where law enforcement held news conferences on the Dorner manhunt. Kovensky said that on Thursday, just after Dorner’s vehicle was found burning nearby, “at the start of the investigation, we don’t believe there was anyone in that cabin.”

No one had been renting the cabin since Feb. 6, the day before Dorner’s vehicle was found burning, Kovensky said.

About 80% of the cabins in that area are used only part of the time, Kovensky said.

Resident Jeanne Kelly was surprised so many police who were scouring the area since Thursday did not find him. “I think if they searched every house, they probably would’ve found him,” Kelly said. “I hate to knock them,” said the 61-year-old woman, who moved to the area nine months ago.

Kelly said police never knocked on her door during the search or checked her property, but she was stopped by officers in an unmarked car who asked if any of her neighbors had any security surveillance video systems.

Kelly said she wasn’t too frightened because her husband had his guns loaded. And the couple has three dogs, which would ave alerted them to any intruder.

by Anonymousreply 15802/13/2013

make it there, not their

Jesus, I'm fucked up tonight, and I don't even drink.

Over caffeinated is embarrassing.

by Anonymousreply 15902/13/2013

When they found his burned out truck they found weapons. It's doubtful he had much with him by the time he was killed.

Thanks R153, for saying it more succinctly. This news conference was clearly a self congratulatory back patting session. They gave nothing out.

I was amazed at how clumsy they were. Also, Dorner's truck was found burned out in Big Bear Lake area on Thursday at noon. No explanation was every given why the truck was burned and why he abandoned it.

They allegedly searched the area, cabins & houses, from that point on until he was spotted Tuesday. They refused to give any information on how long he was with the two cleaning ladies.

At the news conference they refused to answer any questions about any of that stuff, as has been pointed out. Last week the found his ID card, "picture ID" at LAX.

Rev. Jesse Jackson and the head of the NAACP both made separate pleas to him thru the media to come to them and they would escort him to turn himself in. I think the cops were just as worried he'd do that, as they were about him hurting anyone.

While they are pretty sure it was him, they have not yet confirmed him as the shooter for the young couple in the parking garage or for the cop who got shot in Riverside.

It's like "We know it was him." "How?" "Because we say so. " They are not accountable. I'm pretty convinced it was him that killed those three people beginning on Feb.3rd, but they have given out nothing. There is certainly no proof he called that guy to mock him about his dead daughter.

by Anonymousreply 16002/13/2013

[quote] Entirely understandable. Killing cops is bad enough. Killing their children is pure evil.

You forgot. He also the parent and taunted him on the phone about murdering his daughter. They should have castrated this fucker and let him bleed to death while poring a gallon of hydrogen peroxide on him.

And he was a damn nut job a long time before he hunted down and murdered all these innocent people. He barely got out of training. He got into big trouble with his training officer. And he's had restraining order against him by a girlfriend

by Anonymousreply 16102/13/2013

I just heard that it's not his body. There are two stories out there: the dental records don't match and/or the body is actually of a woman. Is anyone else hearing about this?

by Anonymousreply 16202/13/2013

He was ex military. Why wasn't he getting help for PTSD. Why was he permitted to enter the LAPD when he was clearly unsuitable for police work and they knew it. He should have never been permitted to join the department.

Look, this guy was crazy, and violent and unstable.But he was hunted and run to ground like a damned dog and they fried hm. So what does that make them.

I go back to Aurora. I do it to illustrate that you have a different mentality in the police department culture in Aurora, where they apprehended the shooter. Was Dorner worse than Holmes?

by Anonymousreply 16402/13/2013

Freeper trolls aren't gay, R163. They're here to make mischief and cause disharmony (and sow disinformation).

by Anonymousreply 16502/13/2013

Where did you hear that r162? There was a fake screen shot of a CNN report that it was a woman's body on his fan page but it is said to not be true.

by Anonymousreply 16602/13/2013

[quote]Why was he permitted to enter the LAPD when he was clearly unsuitable for police work

You could probably say the same thing about 1/3 of most police forces.

by Anonymousreply 16702/13/2013

r65, there are many gay racists! what are you talking about?

by Anonymousreply 16802/13/2013

The Dorner hostage couple are on CNN now. They come off as "special".

by Anonymousreply 16902/13/2013

When you listen to the narratives presented by the police, remember the narratives initially presented by the military about Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch.

by Anonymousreply 17002/14/2013

Absolutely, R1790. But in this instance, the news media, using scanners, has a much better idea, and actually has recorded a lot of what was going on. So the burden now rests with the powers that be in the media as to whether there will be some balance to the coverage. It was pretty clear from the aborted "news" conference yesterday, that the police expect congratulations not scrutiny.

by Anonymousreply 17102/14/2013

Yeah, I saw them too R169. They said he told them he just wants to clear his name.

by Anonymousreply 17202/14/2013

The city was saved the cost of an expensive trial. He's dead. Amen. This should happen to all multiple murderers.

by Anonymousreply 17302/14/2013

The son of the family that owns the house that burned said his aunts were in the house just two days earlier. What if they were still there during the shoot out that forced Dorner into that house. They would have been burned alive.

by Anonymousreply 17402/14/2013

No,174. I think the police made a serious effort to verify that the house was empty and that he had no ability thru TV, internet, etc. to figure out what was going on outside. They knew they had him alone & isolated.

I have to wonder if there had been civilians in that cabin,whether it would still be standing, & Dorner might even be alive.

The Police made media helicopters stay at least 10,000 feet or higher, and no TV camera's ground shots filming what was going on. They told the media they'd be helping Dorner if they broadcast anything about the strategy, movements of the SWAT teams, the heavy equipment, etc.

Which would've made sense if the hadn't contradicted themselves by telling everyone there was no ability for Dorner to know that anyway. So with all the media on the scene, there was, in effect, a news blackout except for what the reporters could pick up on scanners and from nosing around the cops.

When I was watching the CBS affiliate, a cop actually interrupted the guy to tell him their shot was too wide and to make sure those cameras were tight shots, doing what they were told. The police, in effect, enlisted and supervised the media coverage to support their operations.

I am still puzzled over the fact that this all began with them 'finding' his burned out vehicle. It even had weapons in it when they found it. That was reported.

They find his truck on Thursday and immediately start searching "door to door" . But why his car was burned out is still a mystery.

Did he have an accident and the car caught fire? He left weapons in the vehicle that were found. So he had to have left in a hurry. Was he possibly injured even then?

by Anonymousreply 17502/14/2013

Only on this Freak Show website would a murderer be painted as a victim. I agree that the rule of law prevents anarchy...but I also think the world is a much better place without him.

by Anonymousreply 17602/14/2013

I'm not painting Dorner as a "victimn" by saying the police were wrong. I think it is important for us to maintain vigilance toward the police. They are supposed to be trained professionals and there's a right way and awrong way to handle things.

The last thing they want us to hear is from these people who are portraying him with a more human face. They'd rather they think they sundued some crazed, Incredible Hulk with superpowers.

The Daily Mail has some great photos. Including, if you scroll down, a photo of the street scene in front of the burned out condo. There is a lot of blood, two big spatters in one photo, which was not police blood.

IMO it makes the probability Dorner was already injured when he ran to the cabin, more likely. Hope some really good investigative reporter pieces everything together.

by Anonymousreply 17702/14/2013

[quote]I think it is important for us to maintain vigilance toward the police. They are supposed to be trained professionals and there's a right way and awrong way to handle things.

If only someone would pay attention to the activities of the LAPD.

by Anonymousreply 17802/14/2013

I agree with you totally 177..unfortunately there are other posters on here who have some "odd," view of things..for example this one:

"If that's true [R162] that is great news."

How is that "great," news that this nut might be alive but some poor woman is dead, possibly by burning to death? I also think it is odd that people are so worried about this guy but seem to disregard any of his victims. (I would think it would be a different story if they were related to them of course.) Bottom line, the guy is a nut, and my dark heart is happy he's gone and we don't have to pay for a media sensation trial. However, I also understand that the guy had mental issues and if he could have gotten the help perhaps this could have been avoided. The important thing would be not to save this nut but to have prevented his victims deaths. He made his own choices, which led to his death.

by Anonymousreply 17902/14/2013

Becuse there was no arrest with Dorner dying that special-ed couple will not get any reward money.

I can also see why Dorner didn't demand a threesome--they are not very hot.

by Anonymousreply 18002/14/2013

I think they are being cheated out of the money. It's not their fault the guy was killed rather than arrested and convicted.

by Anonymousreply 18102/14/2013

The scene could not be more surreal: the remains of a cabin south of Big Bear still smoldering, the President delivered his State of the Union Address. To be fair, they had yet to confirm that the person they were incinerating in a cabin near Big Bear actually was Dorner. Earlier in the day, San Bernardino County Sheriffs received a call reporting a stolen vehicle driven by someone matching a description of Dorner. If the experience of the past five days is any indication, this narrowed it down to Black men, Asian women, and skinny white men. The $1 million dollar reward offered for information leading to Dorner’s capture or death, also offered a measurable rubric for the value of the lives of police officers, as traditionally rewards in homicide cases are closer to $20,000.

In the gathering of hurried interviews some interesting truths from the public made it into the TV news. An MSNBC reporter asked a witness: “Where you worried when you learned that Christopher Dorner was so close to your house?” But the witness responded “Actually, I was just afraid of the cops.” Given the unrestrained violence unleashed in recent days by the LAPD, this sentiment is perhaps unsurprising, but demonstrating a degree of hubris matched only by an utter absence of ironic intent, LAPD chief Charlie Beck said, evidently with a straight face, “To be targeted because of what you are… that is absolutely terrifying.” To which many nationwide responded with an audible guffaw: welcome to the club.

An interview with the man who was allegedly carjacked by Dorner said that, while police had told the man not to tell the whole story, he reported that Dorner had simply said “I don’t want to hurt, take your dog and go.” When sheriff’s deputies found the vehicle yesterday, the driver allegedly retreated into a cabin, at one point re-emerging amid the smoke of a diversionary device to exchange more than 100 rounds of fire with deputies. Two police were injured, with one later dying. Police quickly established a large perimeter, closing highways around Seven Oaks, south of Big Bear up to twenty miles away.

Establishing the perimeter also seemed to mean keeping the media at an arm’s length. While press helicopters had been providing live shots of the cabin in which Dorner was allegedly holed-up, the SBSD quickly requested that media withdraw to roadblocks miles away and that news choppers cease to transmit live video for fear of providing strategic information to Dorner himself. The San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department requested that media outlets and individuals cease and desist from even tweeting about the manhunt and shootout.

Even more astonishing than the request was the immediate compliance: press outlets abruptly ceased to tweet about the developing story, and duly retreating to the roadblocks, abandoned their task of reporting the news and waited for it to be fed to them. To paraphrase but one of many incredulous observers, we speak of press blackouts in China, but all the police had to do here was ask nicely and the press complied without batting an eyelash.

With a voluntary media blackout in effect, the Twittersphere, punctuated with a plethora of indignant and sharply worded refusals to comply with the police, became one of the only sources of developing news. What we know about what happened thereafter owes almost entirely to those who scoured the web for scanner feeds from the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department and intently followed the story these feeds told.

“The Burn Plan”

Shortly after 4pm Pacific Standard Time, the cabin was engulfed in flames, with CNN helicopters broadcasting plumes of black smoke from a distance of five miles. A single gunshot is reported from within the house. A narrative quickly emerged among the mainstream media, which we should recall was conspicuously absent from the scene, that police agencies had only deployed tear gas, and that perhaps Dorner himself had set the fire. Soon, what seems to be a cache of ammunition is exploding sporadically.

by Anonymousreply 18202/14/2013

But for those of us listening to the San Bernardino Sheriff’s Department radio frequency, there was little question what had occurred. Nearly a half hour prior, officers had referred to “going ahead with the plan with the burner,” with another adding that the plan was to “back the Bear down and deploy the burner through the turret.” (Live audio during the preceding shootout seems to confirm this intention). Soon, the message was straightforward and expected: “Seven burners have deployed and we have a fire.” No surprised tones, no suggestion that the fire be extinguished.

In fact, there was the exact opposite: a female voice on the scanner repeatedly asks if the fire crews should be allowed to approach, and is told that it’s not time yet, that we need to wait until all four corners are engulfed, then that we need to wait until the roof collapses. At one particularly repulsive point, those on the scene realize that the house has a basement, and an authoritative male voice indicates that the fire crew would not be called until the fire had “burned through the basement.” They were going to let him die.

References to the 1993 massacre at Waco, Texas, the murderous 1985 bombing of the MOVE Organization in Philadelphia were immediate, and will serve as opposing frames for Dorner’s death in the days and weeks to come.

A murder? An assassination? A lynching? An execution.

by Anonymousreply 18302/14/2013

R183, while I gree that Dorner was a terrorist, he should have been given due process in a court of law. His dying cheats the American public out of the knowledge of any further acts of terrorism.

For all we know, Dorner was part of a larger conspiracy to destroy America, or Los Angeles, or the LAPD. He could have been working with other individuals. He could have knowledge of hidden deadly weapons.

But we'll never know because he died without talking.

by Anonymousreply 18402/14/2013

We'll ever know if Dorner had become a radical muslim or joined a dangerous cult.

We'll never know if he had murdered others that have not be found yet.

We'll never know if he was a serial killer, either actively or previously.

We'll never know if he had connections with organized crime.

by Anonymousreply 18502/14/2013

The mother of accused killer Christopher Dorner, Nancy Dorner, released a statement on Wednesday expressing dismay over the acts her son is accused of committing.

“It is with great sadness and heavy hearts that we express our deepest sympathies and condolences to anyone that suffered losses or injuries resulting from Christopher’s actions,” she said.

“We do not condone Christopher’s actions. The family has no further comment and asks that our privacy be respected during this difficult time.”

Police have yet to identify the charred human remains found in the Angelus Oaks cabin that burned to the ground after a gun battle with a suspect, believed to be Christopher Dorner.

Authorities found Dorner’s driver’s license alongside human remains inside the cabin.

by Anonymousreply 18602/14/2013

I just wish he could have gotten some help early on. The guy was severely depressed and may have suffered from PTSD. The fact that he was strong supporter of gay rights and opposed anti-semitism and racism showed that he was capable of empathy. It's sad. If only he could have gotten some help.

by Anonymousreply 18702/14/2013

He didn't need help, r187, the LAPD is the toxic sewer -- they need the "help."

by Anonymousreply 18802/14/2013

[quote] A narrative quickly emerged among the mainstream media, which we should recall was conspicuously absent from the scene

Actually there WERE reporters from one or 2 news stations at the scene. One was from CBS in L.A.

by Anonymousreply 18902/14/2013

Oh I agree, R108, but I also wish Dorner could have gotten some psychological help.

by Anonymousreply 19002/14/2013

R190 is for R188.

by Anonymousreply 19102/14/2013

I don't think poorly educated people should be policing the public. At least have a degree in sociology or anthropology.

by Anonymousreply 19202/14/2013

They should have enticed the sweetie pie out of the cabin with some milk and cookies.

by Anonymousreply 19302/14/2013

[quote]They find his truck on Thursday and immediately start searching "door to door" . But why his car was burned out is still a mystery. Did he have an accident and the car caught fire? He left weapons in the vehicle that were found. So he had to have left in a hurry. Was he possibly injured even then?

I read that the truck had a broken axle. However, at that point they were trying to determine whether it happened before or as a result of the towing.

[quote]The Daily Mail has some great photos. Including, if you scroll down, a photo of the street scene in front of the burned out condo. There is a lot of blood, two big spatters in one photo, which was not police blood.

How do you know it's not police blood, oh great Carnac? If it were Dorner's wouldn't there be a trail leading away from the spots as he ran to the cabin? There were two cops down and there are two puddles of blood. It looks like the bodies were transported from those spots, no? Besides, there's no way one person could lose all the blood you see there and flee, let alone move.

by Anonymousreply 19402/14/2013

Thanks for that, R182/R183. All I want to do is once again, point to Aurora. Heavily armed shooter in military gear opens fire in a crowded theatre and massacres a dozen people, and wounds dozens more.

He has tear gas canisters, flash bombs, grenades, automatic weapons, etc. It has been determined that he's mentally deranged. Actually was under psychiatric care. Nuts. Where is he today? He is incarcerated and awaiting trial.

This guy boobytrapped an apartment building, hoping to kill dozens more when the cops raided his apartment. Where is he now? He was thrown to the ground and subdued, cuffed and taken into custody.

Barricaded gunmen situations occur with more & more frequency every day. The account @ R182 is chilling. They never intended to take him alive, they would have never honored a request to surrender.

This is what happens when a paramilitary force such as the police act out of revenge and anger, instead of remembering they're trained professionals. Their conduct was despicable.

They're every bit as dangerous as they'd have you believe Dorner was, and they clearly do not want anyone who came in contact with him to say anything that will give him humanity.

Dorner was wrong to kill, if he did in fact kill the policeman in Riverside and the young couple in the parking garage. It was a heinous act. But the barbarity applied by the police personnel aat Bear Lake was heinous too. And people need to recognize it. This was men with guns run amok. It ought to scare the crap out of people.

by Anonymousreply 19502/14/2013

It doesn't scare me even a little bit. And as far as there being no proof he killed those people..come on..There's no proof Robert Blake or Casey Anthony killed yet we know and accept that they did. Unless you think they are innocent too. I don't ever plan to take the cops on a huge manhunt for a week so I doubt they will ever set me on fire.

by Anonymousreply 19602/14/2013

They spent hours waiting for Dorner to surrender

by Anonymousreply 19702/14/2013

The only thing that scares the crap out of me is people like you, R195.

by Anonymousreply 19802/14/2013

r200 Since he took them on a manhunt for five or however many days, since he knew they were looking for him and since he shot at them as they chased him to the cabin, I think the surrender was implied. He wasn't just hanging out minding his business making a quilt and suddenly got firebombed. He could have surrendered in the days leading up to it too.

by Anonymousreply 20102/14/2013

I agree about them being in pursuit, as I posted earlier.

However, they should have called on him to surrender once they were in place.

That is what I've actually seen and also read about in cases where LEOs are pursuing murder suspects. Because he killed cops, he's suddenly not subject to the same laws. They are called law enforcement for a reason--not vengence takers.

Also, this is going to affect the LAPD negatively in future cases involving AAs.

Ironically, taking him alive would be much more devastating to someone with B/NPD.

by Anonymousreply 20202/14/2013

An Armed, Disposable and Dangerous System

What’s shocking is that it doesn’t happen more often.

When a heartless system refuses to listen or help, when it crushes and grinds down millions of people day after day, year after year, everywhere, it’s illogical and unreasonable to assume that all its victims will pick themselves up, dust themselves off and reinvent themselves. (Job retraining! Start a business! Win the Lotto!) Some people will crack. Others will explode.

It’s inevitable.

Consider the case of the ex-Los Angeles police officer and Iraq War vet who triggered a massive manhunt after he allegedly shot three people in retaliation for his dismissal in 2008. Based on media accounts so far, Christopher Dorner had reason to be angry. After he reported a partner for assaulting a homeless man, a review board concluded that there wasn’t enough evidence to charge the other cop. Fair enough. Maybe the partner was innocent. But then they went too far, firing the officer who brought the charge for filing a false report.

Officer Dorner had already taken a chance by stepping forward, risking ostracism and the chance to advance in his career. Firing him – even if he was wrong in this case – is heinous.

Anyone familiar with the behavior of white cops in predominantly African-American neighborhoods and who has seen the LAPD in action has to admit that the accusation – kicking a bum – is well within the realm of plausibility. Anyone who has ever faced off against an arresting officer in court knows that cops lie. And anyone who has filed a complaint against the police and their behavior soon learns that the chances of obtaining redress, much less justice, range from slim to none. (Disclosure: I’ve experienced all three.)

Ruling against Dorner in 2010, a Superior Court judge noted that administrative review panels – in this case, the LAPD itself – enjoy a “presumption of correctness” under state law. Which makes suing pointless.

“I have exhausted all available means at obtaining my name back,” Dorner wrote on Facebook. “I have attempted all legal court efforts within appeals at the Superior Courts and California Appellate courts. This is my last resort. The LAPD has suppressed the truth and it has now lead to deadly consequences.”

Los Angeles police officials spun the wanted ex-cop’s Facebook manifesto, which described the force as brutal, corrupt and racist – “The department has not changed since the Rampart and Rodney King days. It has gotten worse” – as out of date, a relic of the 1990s, before the scandal-ridden “old LAPD” got reformed (by good people like them). Unfortunately for their we’re-nice-guys-now messaging, their trigger-happy ground troops were rocking it old-school in their hunt for their former colleague, twice opening fire with assault rifles on vehicles they thought fit the description of the truck driven by the suspect before bothering to take a look at three people inside two cars, none of whom look anything like him yet wound up in the hospital anyway.

To his credit, or at least that of the Police Department’s publicity office, Chief Charlie Beck announced that the LAPD would re-examine Dorner’s dismissal.

How exactly is this going to work? If it turns out the guy was right, and that he never should’ve been let go, does he get his job back while he’s serving three life terms? Confusing. But it sounds good. That’s what matters.

Needless to say, a shooting spree is an inappropriate response to injustice. Still, the case of the cop gone rogue is a parable for our time. Authority is unaccountable. Individuals are powerless. Checks and balances, however well they worked in the past, have evaporated. It’s a system doomed to fail.

by Anonymousreply 20302/14/2013

Fired or laid off? Chances are, you’re an “at will” employee. That means that, no matter how hard you work and how good you are your job, your boss can fire you. There’s nothing you can do about it. Even if you have the money to sue – and if you have that much money, you probably didn’t need the job in the first place – no honest lawyer will take your case. Employers have all the power. Is it any wonder that wages are stagnant or falling? Who would be stupid enough to dare to ask for a raise?

What happens to people like Officer Dorner, who lose everything? The American system – the government, political leaders, gatekeepers in the media – has no answer.

We live in a disposable society. We are disposable. When our skill set or education or personality or serendipity no longer fits the demands of the marketplace, when we suffer an injury to our bodies or our minds that reduces us to uselessness under the cold capitalist calculus of value-added cost-benefit profit-loss, we get turned out. No income, no home. No status, no life. What should you do? Where should you go? Nobody cares, not even about our so-called national heroes, our sainted troops whom the yellow stickers on our SUVs pledged to support. Every day, 22 veterans commit suicide. Tens of thousands are homeless.

Note to the architects of the American political system: if you’re going to build your economy on the blood and crushed bones of powerless citizens, it’s not the smartest idea to pair disposability of the individual with a cult of militarism that sends millions to war. Every now and then, as in the case of fired officer Christopher Dorner, the victims of your brutalist slave-labor approach to labor-management relations turn out to be heavily armed, highly trained, out to kill – with nothing left to lose.

by Anonymousreply 20402/14/2013

[quote]I don't ever plan to take the cops on a huge manhunt for a week so I doubt they will ever set me on fire.

The ladies that the cops shot could have said the same thing about being shot by cops, r196.

by Anonymousreply 20502/14/2013

But those ladies' days of delivering papers are over, huh?

by Anonymousreply 20602/14/2013

R206, I hope so too. That was horrible, and they didn't even match the description.

by Anonymousreply 20702/14/2013

I hate cops. They absolutely refuse to police their own. When one of them ends up dead, I usually say, GOOD.

by Anonymousreply 20802/14/2013

Their attorney was raising hell about the LAPD a few days after the shooting in Torrance, but then he disappeared. I don't know if the LAPD not only gave the women a truck, but made some sort of deal, or if the police leaned on the attorney because Dorner was still at large.

by Anonymousreply 20902/14/2013

r209 If their attorney doesn't get them a sweet deal then they better call Saul. I imagine every ambulance chaser in LA is in the hospital lobby trying to find them.

by Anonymousreply 21002/14/2013

This makes me shudder, particularly that this happened in the United States and was condoned, planned even, by the city police department.

This has nothing to do with how the officers felt. It has nothing to do with what horrific acts Dorner did (presumably).

It has to do with our US Constitution, every citizen's right to a fair trial, that we are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, deliberate destruction of evidence, and yes, murder.

by Anonymousreply 21102/14/2013

[bold] Burned remains ID'd as fugitive ex-cop Dorner

by Anonymousreply 21202/14/2013

I'd be curious to know if they find a bullet in the corpse. And if so, what was the trajectory and was it consistent with the bullets Dorner had on him.

by Anonymousreply 21302/14/2013

[/bold]Bold font ousekeeping.

by Anonymousreply 21402/14/2013

R187 I wish he'd gotten help too.

Dorner definitely engaged in criminal behavior and he needed to be brought to justice. But make no mistake. Nothing Dorner did excuses the behavior of law enforcement.

by Anonymousreply 21502/14/2013

Dorner was exactly like the cops whose corruption he was allegedly exposing. After he got his ass tossed out, he cried victim and yet still acted like any other LAPD cop--killing people and blaming others for his actions.

Co-incidentally, I was reading a book about a hostage negotiator before this happened. It seems it's standing operating procedure to kill someone in a stand-oof who has already killed law enforcement officials. They only hold back if there are hostages and the press in attendance. Dorner didn't have hostages, so he was toast. As a cop, he probably knew that.

by Anonymousreply 21602/14/2013

r216 I agree. I also think that if he hadn't been fired he would have been happy to stay working with the LAPD that he thought was so corrupt. After he was asked to leave he suddenly realized they were bad? I don't think so. It sounds like anyone who gets fired and then badmouths their job. If that wasn't the case then he wouldn't have even had that lawyer (whose kid he murdered) trying to get his job back. If he had gotten reinstated with the cops would he have been such a "heroic whistleblower" ? I doubt it.

by Anonymousreply 21702/15/2013

Well, what ever Dorner was doesn't excuse what the police did, what happened at that cabin. (They tore down a complete wall before they fired the burn gas in.)I'd really like to see the people, the faces behind those disembodied voices that ordered the canisters fired and then said, "and we have fire."

In the coming days we'll hear a lot of spin. We're going to see law enforcement justify what they did, & how they did it, using "experts" if necessary, and we're going to hear about what a monster Dorner was.

They will say they had no choice. With all their power and equipment, all their numbers, they had no choice. The truth of it, will all fade away, and facts will be inserted into a pre-planned narrative.

by Anonymousreply 21802/15/2013

I thought the attorney for the two ladies shot by the LAPD had disappeared, but last night he was back on the news and said the older lady (71) who had been shot in the back, had to return to the hospital as her would had again inflamed. Then he said it was true that the LAPD had "apologized" but then laughed and said that the chief had tried to replace the ladies' truck with a used truck someone had donated.

by Anonymousreply 21902/15/2013

It is already as r218 predicted:

Dorner's resistance dictated tactics, authorities say

The decision to smoke out the ex-cop with a powerful type of tear gas, which often causes fires, came as other options were running out and the sun was going down.

Tough tactics used in Christopher Dorner shootout

Dorner manhunt: Setting fire to cabin justified, some experts say

- LA Times

by Anonymousreply 22002/15/2013

Maybe it was just a spontaneous, flash-mob-style version of "The Roof is on Fire". I've done that.

by Anonymousreply 22102/15/2013

r202 the cabin fire had nothing to do with the LAPD. It's the San Bernardino Police Department.

I think they should have waited it out. Time was on their side. It was nonsensical to try to smoke him out. You can't claim the fire was unintentional. It's a wood cabin.

by Anonymousreply 22202/15/2013

Ask yourselves this. If they ever intended to do it by the book, if they had really called out to him to surrender, don't you think all that the media gathered there would have heard them? Maybe they couldn't report it at the time, but they would have heard them calling out to him to surrender.But it was the media who asked the question at the news conference. "Did you ask him to surrender?"

I really never expected them to take him alive. The wholesale shooting at vehicles they thought might be his, shooting at the women delivering papers, atc. They were definitely on the hunt.

No. Once they had him cornered in that house, all they did was secure the perimeter, back the media off, and wait for the equipment they needed to finich it. Excessive, overwhelming force. Barbaric.

by Anonymousreply 22402/15/2013

Cops are no different then the criminals they go after.

by Anonymousreply 22502/15/2013

They are barbaric. And just think, if they hadn't fired him years ago he could have been jackbooting right along with them on this glorious LA weekend, because he never would have written this manifesto (because give me a fucking break, he wrote it) if he hadn't been fired after his performance eval was subpar. So considering he was trying for years to get his job back with them I really can't take what he said way too seriously. They were good enough for him to want back with them and only when they said no did he decide they were vile thugs.

by Anonymousreply 22802/15/2013

Oh, r226 has brought us chestnuts!

by Anonymousreply 22902/15/2013

Dorner lied and was fired. He wasn't man enough to take it and murdered innocent people in his rage.

by Anonymousreply 23002/15/2013

Look, it shouldn't be too hard to wrap your brain around. Most people condemn Dorner's behavior. I don't think I've heard any blanket condemnations of "the police."

We need the police. They risk their lives, they protect & serve. That's their mandate. They are sworn to uphold the law. They get trained.

They have the power of life & death, they are judge & jury. So they cannot afford the luxury of anger or vengeance. But the contrast between what they did here, and how the Aurora shooter was handled, shows these guys were out for vengeance.

by Anonymousreply 23102/15/2013

LOS ANGELES—Los Angeles residents are reportedly on edge today following reports that hundreds of armed and extremely dangerous Los Angeles Police Department officers are resuming regular patrolling duties after the conclusion of Tuesday’s manhunt for rogue ex-cop Christopher Dorner

by Anonymousreply 23202/15/2013

It's not hard for me to wrap my brain around, is it hard for you? You seem like you are being deliberately obtuse when you keep bringing up the Aurora clown (and sorry if you haven't brought it up before, someone did) If that guy had stayed in the theater and let all the others go and barricaded himself in there, I bet he would have been firebombed too. It's not the right thing to do but it happens.

by Anonymousreply 23302/15/2013

So, same as always, cops persecuting the citizens.

by Anonymousreply 23402/15/2013

[quote]Dorner's resistance dictated tactics, authorities say

We had to kill him! He made us! It's all his fault!

by Anonymousreply 23502/15/2013

Just wanted to say that there are several (over 200) Dorner fan pages so whoever the guy that said everyone are thugs who should die in a grease fire is, look up Dorner on facebook, you will see. I read them all the time and this morning one of the main contributors had to back off of typing her misspelled rants because her fibro was acting up. I just thought that was funny.

by Anonymousreply 23602/15/2013

If the Aurora gnman had barricaded himself in the theatre, they would've had to go in after him,bcz there were wounded people in that theatre who needed help or they'd have died. So you don't make sense offering an "if - then" scenario, R233.

by Anonymousreply 23702/15/2013

They're all Hank Schroeder from Breaking Bad

by Anonymousreply 23802/15/2013

Advisory: Clarification to Media Outlets regarding requests to interview LAPD Personnel and/or Family members involved with the Dorner incident

The Chief of Police has directed that all LAPD personnel involved with the Dorner incident, particularly those personnel connected with the protection details, including the protectees and their families, not participate in any media interviews at this time. The Department is not opposed to entertaining requests for such interviews in the future when the investigation has concluded and such interviews will not impact the investigations of all involved agencies.

We appreciate the cooperation of all journalists and request that all attempts to contact LAPD personnel involved with the Dorner case cease immediately. All future requests shall be submitted through the LAPD Media Relations Section and will be considered on a case by case basis in compliance with the Chief’s current directive

by Anonymousreply 23902/15/2013

About the lady back in the hospital. This article said she was shot when she was shielding her daughter.

by Anonymousreply 24002/15/2013

and r237 I said in my r233 scenario "if he had let everyone out", everyone includes the wounded, you are being obtuse. Now you may come back and say that the wounded couldn't walk, well let's say they could or that he had let stretchers take them and then had barricaded himself in, you can bet your ass they would have murdered him out of there.

by Anonymousreply 24102/15/2013

Did you guys read this?

Christopher Dorner Not A Sociopath, Experts Say

Posted: 02/14/2013 3:01 am EST | Updated: 02/15/2013 4:47 pm EST

Christopher Dorner, the fugitive ex-Los Angeles cop who had declared "war" on the LAPD, is not a sociopath, psychologists said.

by Anonymousreply 24202/15/2013

No he wasn't a sociopath. He was a psychopath.

by Anonymousreply 24302/15/2013

r242, so what is he?

I'm thinking Narcissistic or Borderline Personality Disorder.

by Anonymousreply 24402/15/2013

[bold] Sheriff: Ex-cop Dorner died from gunshot to head [/bold]

by Anonymousreply 24502/15/2013

Sorry for huffpo link here is another link.

Experts Say Fugitive Ex-Cop Actually Wasn't A Sociopath

by Anonymousreply 24602/15/2013

re245, I thought only the coronor makes that call.

by Anonymousreply 24702/15/2013

r247 -- the sheriff told us what the coroner supposedly found -- a bullet hole in the head, but said it is not absolutely clear the shot was self inflicted, although he thinks it is.

by Anonymousreply 24802/15/2013

Geez -- i hate people who make psychological diagnoses from afar.

by Anonymousreply 24902/15/2013

I have a feeling -- just a feeling, because what do I know -- that Dorner was not the bad guy here.

by Anonymousreply 25002/15/2013

r250 Well, you're wrong.

by Anonymousreply 25102/15/2013

I want to believe you, r251, but I lived with a defense attorney for a while — whose best friend was married to a cop — and gosh it seems 60 percent of every precinct is staffed by people who probably shouldn't have guns or power over anyone.

by Anonymousreply 25202/16/2013

I was just kidding, r252, you would have to see my "Well, you're wrong" post on the 'What do you love about Datalounge' thread. I do think Dorner was wrong though, for the record.

by Anonymousreply 25402/16/2013

I always thought that what alot of Los Angeles cops need is to be put over a knee and paddled long and hard. If only they had sentenced those 3 white cops who beat up Rodney King to be publicly paddled in their uniforms then there would not have been any riots. We need to replace police departments with organizations more responsible and less corrupt than the crappy "serve and protect" bullshit we have now. Alot of cops are neurotic ex-military types who can't get over themselves. Cops are thieves and theives are cops (or would easily fit). Said another way, birds of a feather flock together and cops and criminals deserve each other.

by Anonymousreply 25502/16/2013

I don't really care about Dorner, per se. He's dead. He won't have a trial and he won't be examined by psychiatrists, and we will never know what sent him over the edge. From what we do know about him, he engaged in criminal behavior and killed people. But he's dead.

What I do care about is the police who are very much with us, and their behavior. There is not a single thing you can tell me, that will ever convince me that in Dorner's case, their behavior was justified.

There have been too many examples of excessive force and unprofessional behavior from police officers discharging their duty. They want to draw a distinction between themselves, as the good guys, and Dorner, as the bad guy. And they have grounds to do it. Except in this situation they were just as despicable as he was.

Because if their behavior, they have a probable murderer generating sympathy from the public, because they didn't follow procedures and give him due process. That fucking lunatic in Aurora got more consideration than he did. Of course, Aurora shooter didn't deliberately kill a cop.

by Anonymousreply 25802/16/2013

They only resorted to that because the offers of a pizza party with a clown didn't lure him out.

What were they supposed to do?

by Anonymousreply 25902/16/2013

This is what our Drone policy will look like when done on US soil

by Anonymousreply 26002/16/2013

I don't understand Dorner defenders. Are they incapable of hating the LAPD and Dorner at the same time or something?

by Anonymousreply 26102/16/2013

Most here aren't defending Dorner -- they are defending habeus corpus.

by Anonymousreply 26202/16/2013

Dorner had no intention of using his habeas corpus. As soon as he killed those first people he planned to go out in some blaze of glory. If he hadn't he wouldn't have killed himself before they had to torch the place.

by Anonymousreply 26302/16/2013

Christopher Dorner: Supporters organize on Facebook

February 17, 2013 | 9:54 am

Several days after Christopher Dorner's death ended his standoff with authorities, some sympathizers have been expressing support for him online and on the street.

Dorner -- accused of the slayings of four people -- has gained some supporters on the Web who have read his alleged manifesto and believe its claims that he was unfairly fired by the Los Angeles Police Department and was a victim of racism.

Dozens of protesters gathered outside LAPD headquarters in downtown L.A. on Saturday afternoon in an event they said was organized through a Facebook page called “I support Christopher Jordan Dorner.” The post announcing the protest advised attendees to “keep it PEACEFUL” and to bring recording equipment.

The Facebook page states: “This is not a page about supporting the killing of innocent people. It’s supporting fighting back against corrupt cops and bringing to light what they do.”

Those gathered Saturday said they were protesting police corruption and the way the massive manhunt for Dorner was conducted. Authorities said Dorner appears to have died from a self-inflected gunshot wound after a shootout with police in Big Bear on Tuesday, ending a deadly rampage that stretched across Southern California.

Protesters also said they were appalled by police officers' mistakenly shooting at passengers in two separate trucks in Torrance, wrongly believing Dorner might be in the vehicles. One woman was shot in the back and is still recovering.

The protesters emphasized that they did not condone the killings of which Dorner is accused.

Michael Nam, 30, stood at the corner of 1st and Main Streets with a sign, painted by his girlfriend, showing a tombstone and the words “RIP Habeas Corpus.” The tombstone was engulfed in flames.

Nam, of Lomita, said he was disturbed by the burning of a mountain cabin near Big Bear where Dorner barricaded himself with a high-powered sniper rifle, smoke bombs and a cache of ammo. The blaze started shortly after police fired "pyrotechnic" tear gas into the cabin; the canisters are known as "burners" because the intense heat they emit often causes a fire.

But authorities have maintained that the fire was not intentionally set.

Dorner, whose charred body was found in the cabin, appears to have died of a single gunshot wound to the head, authorities said.

“How the police handled this -– they were the judge, the jury and the executioner,” Nam said. “As an American citizen, you have the right to a trial and due process by law.”

Nam, a former Marine and a current member of the Army National Guard, said he has combat experience from deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He said he has been in situations in which a combatant has been barricaded and successfully waited until the person surrendered, eventually getting “tired and coming out on their own.”

Nam said it was “pretty obvious” police wanted Dorner dead. “What I saw was a complete disregard for the Bill of Rights,” Nam said.

San Bernardino County Sheriff John McMahon, during a news conference Friday, defended the tactics used by his agency in the shootout at the mountain cabin, which left one of his deputies dead and another seriously wounded.

“The bottom line is the deputy sheriffs of this department, and the law enforcement officers from the surrounding area, did an outstanding job,” he said. “They ran into the line of fire.” As the protesters stood Saturday, drivers passing by honked, waved and gave thumbs up. A handful of officers watched from police headquarters across the street.

by Anonymousreply 26402/18/2013

Nam said he spoke to the officers before the protest began about what the protesters should do to keep the event peaceful. He said the officers were respectful.

The protesters marched around the block, circling an intersection near the department headquarters. They chanted, “LAPD, you are guilty.”

Signs expressed anger at police and support for Dorner.

“If you’re not enraged, you’re not paying attention,” one sign read.

“Why couldn’t we hear his side?”

“Clear his name! Christopher Dorner”

Liliana Alaniz, 40, came with her family -– her mother, sister, nieces and daughters -– from Long Beach to join the protest, which she said was her first.

“I really, really believe he was innocent in the firing case,” Alaniz said of Dorner.

Alaniz held a sign that read, “Trying to clear your name.”

Her daughter, Andrea Tovar, said Dorner “has his supporters.”

“Murder is never right, but neither is the law when it’s unjust,” said Tovar, 18. She said police need to know they “can’t get away with everything.”

by Anonymousreply 26502/18/2013

I'm sick to death of our terribly racist police departments. I'm sick of them murdering black men as if it's open season.

by Anonymousreply 26602/18/2013

Dorner needed to be brought to justice. He was pretty likely a murderer of two people in a parking garage, he allegedly shot & killed a cop in Riverside & the San Bernadino deputy.

But the excessive force used by the police, on this barricaded gunman situation, and the shooting of innocent people they police "thought might be Dorner," those are facts.

This wasn't a combat situation in Afghanistan, this was Big Bear Lake. They went overboard. Bloodlust ruled. It begs the question, that there is a certain type of culture in those departments, that encourages this sort of brutal ruthless resolution, so you have to ask what kind of people do they recruit, train, and support out here?

I think you have two kinds of police officers. You have the kind that are interested in community policing, and you have these para-military, cowboy thugs who can go either way.

Dorner was mentally unstable and a killer, but shit, even Jeffery Dahmer got a trial and went to prison. I don't think Dorner is anything like a hero. I think the dumbassed police have made him one.

by Anonymousreply 26702/18/2013

Dorner's alleged victim Monica Quan remembered at private funeral

February 18, 2013 | 6:41 am

One of the first alleged victims of former LAPD officer Christopher Dorner was remembered over the weekend as a private funeral was held for 28-year-old Monica Quan.

Quan and her fiance, 27-year-old Keith Lawrence, were found shot to death on Super Bowl Sunday atop the parking structure of their Irvine condo complex. They had gotten engaged only days before.

Quan was the assistant coach for the women’s basketball team at Cal State Fullerton, and Lawrence was a public safety officer at USC.

Quan was the daughter of former LAPD Capt. Randy Quan, who was mentioned in an online manifesto authorities said Dorner posted to his Facebook page. Randy Quan had represented Dorner in the process that led to his termination from the LAPD.

In the manifesto, Dorner railed about being unfairly fired and promised to exact revenge, saying he had to kill in order to clear his name.

The funeral was held Sunday.

by Anonymousreply 26802/18/2013

R266 - should they have thrown a parade for this murderer?

by Anonymousreply 26902/18/2013
Loading
Need more help? Click Here.