I still don't understand what happened. Can someone explain what happened to their economy. THanks.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||02/08/2013|
They wanted olives and feta. The waiter gave them olives and feta.
They wanted spinach pie. The waiter gave them spinach pie.
They wanted baklava. The waiter gave them baklava.
The waiter brought the check. The couldn't pay the bill.
Now they eat sauerkraut or they eat nothing at all.
|by Anonymous||reply 1||01/27/2013|
When they entered the euro, outside lenders assumed that their outstanding debt would be backed up by the Germans. Most of these lenders were, in fact, German banks.
The Greeks were given a ton of money and did, essentially, what Florida did. They massively overbuilt their housing sector, assuming that rising properly values would take care of the massive debt.
When the bubble burst, the Germans weren't that willing to pay off the debt. The crisis also exacerbated pre-existing Greek problems of corruption and tax evasion.
Now they're stuck. They can't do what a normal country would do which is devalue their currency to cut wage costs and real estate prices. They also don't have outside stabilizers coming in like Florida has in terms of Social Security, Medicare, etc.
So now they have massive unemployment, high prices and a rising quasi-fascist right wing movement.
|by Anonymous||reply 2||01/27/2013|
The journalists should hire you to explain the crisis, R2. You did it quickly and well.
What do you think will happen to Greece in the next decade?
|by Anonymous||reply 3||01/27/2013|
Except, R1, the bankers are not waiters working for a tip. They are more like a waiter who brings you a dinner he knows you can't afford, and then demands that you pay for that one dinner every night for the rest of your life.
Compound interest is a bigger threat to the world than organized religion.
|by Anonymous||reply 4||01/27/2013|
I don't get why r1 got W&W. Could someone explain it to me?
|by Anonymous||reply 5||01/27/2013|
People forget to mention why Greece needed the money. It had an extensive welfare state and no choice but to borrow more to cover its "cradle to grave" care for its people. The public sector was over-inflated, blablabla, etc.
The US is going through the same thing, but it won't reach Greece's crisis for a while. It has bombs :P
|by Anonymous||reply 6||01/27/2013|
The Greeks wanted a socialist utopia welfare state but they didn't have the economic strength to support it. However they went ahead and did it anyway and it collapsed like a house of cards. Now they have 27% unemployment and 58% youth unemployment, also they're in debt 170% of GDP so the public sector has no money to pay the workers it has, with of course no ability to create jobs for the unemployed either.
|by Anonymous||reply 7||01/27/2013|
Don't forget to mention that the Greeks cooked their books to get more credit (and all the lenders were ever so happy to overlook little irregularities like, say, a $10 billion off-market swap with Goldman Sachs)...
|by Anonymous||reply 8||01/28/2013|
Also remember that tax evasion is a national sport in Greece. They've always been that way.
|by Anonymous||reply 9||01/28/2013|
Any psychics predict how Greece will "repair" the economy? Are Grecians emigrating in mass?
|by Anonymous||reply 10||01/28/2013|
R9 Income tax evasion (not direct tax evasion) should be applauded. No one has the right to forcibly make you give up a portion of your income to pay for things that don't benefit you or society whatsoever.
|by Anonymous||reply 11||01/28/2013|
I predict disaster.
|by Anonymous||reply 12||01/28/2013|
Hold on people that Fox Talking about about failure of Socialism is not true.
Forntline did an investigation about that. R2 was correct but there was some other stuff he left out.
American banks actually went over there and sold the government loan much like they did with people here who could not afford them. They convinced small towns and countries they could lower their debt if they took this money from the US banks to bay their bills. So they though they were being smart with their money.
In reality, it was like someone talking you into lowering your credit card debt by putting it into a new loan with lower fees. Then later you find out you are actually stuck in a payday loan and cant get out.
The reason these city and countries were so easily duped was shier numbers. Most of them only have a hand full of people in the government dealing with the actual debt. The US banks sent out something like 400 brokers just to one city alone. Overwhelmed by public pressure to lower the debt, they took the deal thinking it would help.
Of course you can only imagine what your commission would be on a loan to an entire country!
|by Anonymous||reply 13||01/28/2013|
Wow the Freepers are attracted to the word "Greece" like flies to...honey.
A generous welfare state has zero to do with Greece's current problems. It is a currency trap. Simply. It's nothing else. This effort by Ayn Rand types to recast this economic problem as a morality play is boring and, even worse, wrong.
If you look at other Eurozone countries that were hit hard, like Ireland and Spain, they had relatively generous social welfare systems and rather admirable budgets. Ireland, as I recall, was the right wing's favorite country in terms of low corporate taxes, etc. and look at how lovely things are there.
There is little chance that the US will have Greece's problem (barring a Weimar-style economic collapse), mostly because we can print our own money, which the US government is constitutionally required to do.
So please stop thinking that the social welfare policies of Europe caused the financial crisis there. It didn't. It might be emotionally satisfying to think that. But it's totally and utterly wrong
|by Anonymous||reply 14||01/28/2013|
We ran the economy like shit and the result was that we officially went bankrupt. We didn't feel the true effects of banktruptc though, as the rest of the eurozone bailed us out, in return for finally sorting the economy out.
R11, the problem with income tax evasion in Greece is that the same people evading are also the ones who demand huge, mostly wasteful public expenditure, and demand that the state keeps increasing its spending on them. It's not like Greek tax evaders are also advocates of small government. They are the ones that forced the governments to borrow so much (also, Greek politicians like state-control of everything, hence why public spending was growing and growing, but it's done in such a wasteful way there's little to show for it). Moreover, direct tax evasion is also a huge, massive problem in Greece.
"Understanding the Crisis in Greece: From Boom to Bust" by Theodore Pelagidis and Michael Mitsopoulos is a great book on the subject.
|by Anonymous||reply 15||01/28/2013|
R15 = Freeper with an anti government addenda. What, are you board now that your favorite personality from FOX news is out of a job?
|by Anonymous||reply 16||01/28/2013|
R14 I'm glad you know so much about economics. What would we do without you?
You forget to mention the overall expansion of the government in Greece. Why did it get into public debt in the first place? I don't doubt that banks duped Greece. However, the public debt was due to the intense corruption of corporations that got welfare from Greece.
When referring to "welfare states" people think that we're talking about Joe's pension or Emma's welfare checks that she takes for 4 months until she finds a job. Or perhaps they think we're talking about the public assistance some people receive when they're on the brink of starvation. They never stop and think that "welfare states" are also giving TONS of money to corporations that don't deserve it, and that's hurting the economy the most. The subsidies and tariffs go much further. Pension systems can survive with some reform and privatization. The current cronyist system (which, by the way, is present in every socialist country) that awards large and small businesses with money they don't need isn't healthy.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||01/28/2013|
R15 I know that there's a lot of corruption. Companies that ask for public funds simply are whiny pricks who think they're entitled to something just because they exist. That doesn't mean that the income tax system is just. It just means that government should stop getting in bed with these folks.
|by Anonymous||reply 18||01/28/2013|
r2, I watched a YT video last year of a Greek official (or was it an economist? I can't find the clip anymore) who explained that this entire mess was actually orchestrated by certain financial bodies. What do you think about it?
|by Anonymous||reply 19||01/28/2013|
R16 = Progressive (progressing towards third world economic state)
|by Anonymous||reply 20||01/28/2013|
R16, I'm from Greece so I don't watch Fox News and the term freeper is irrelevant in this country nor am I aware who you claim my favourite personality is, but you obivously don't have a fucking clue about Greece. EVERYONE in this country knows that there has been waste and there is a HUGE problem with public spending, the public sector and tax evasion. The only people who deny this are ideologues from some continent far away from the actual situation, whose only interest in Greece is to impose their own beliefs onto it so as to misuse its example in their fringe ideological battles.
R14, it's not about social welfare - I would never advocate that Europe pursue the US model of little social welfare - it's about wasteful spending and a dysnfunctional public sector, which is what Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and Cyprus suffer from greatly.
If you look at Ireland and Spain you will also notice that formerly they had been among the EU's poorest economies (prior to expanding to the former communist countries) and then suddenly they became boom countries - housing-sector boom countries based on huge amounts of borrowing and mortgage-backed credit; then, when it was discovered that such huge levels of borrowing could not be paid back, Ireland went bust and Spain has to had deal with huge further borrowing costs and collapsed housing and banking sectors, with all the repercussions of that. It's easy to blame "foreign banks" for lending them this money, but they took it willingly and in fact deliberately so as to create "growth" through housing "boom", which then blew up in their faces.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||01/28/2013|
R17, how about: people retiring on full state pensions at 55 or under, overemployment in the public sector in order for governments to pretend to create jobs and also to serve the famous Greek patronage clientist system, then add the awful education and health systems which are full of waste (e.g. the state pays 8 billion euros annually for prescriptions, much more than Spain even which has a population nearly 5 times larger - and there is no computerised system for prescriptions, they are still hand-written!), at university (entirely free - even the textbooks) they have just managed to enforce that you do your undergraduate degree of supposedly a three-year course in about 6 years maximum, we have many people taking up to 8 years because you can just resit exams no matter how shit you are; in fact, if you decide one semester you don't fancy sitting your exams now and you'd rather do it next semester, then you can. Also, there have been 100s of 1000s of people who have claimed disability benefits for being blind when they weren't blind or claiming pensions when they don't even exist or died years ago.
Not to mention, huge waste within public spending, with no budget auditing or accounting, unbearable bureaucracy, little strategy for how to use public funds, little effective design of projects so the same tasks would have to be repeatedly done. Like, for how many decades do you think they have been trying to build a public subway in Thessaloniki? We only got the Athens one built in time for the Olympics thanks to all that lovely EU money and German planners! (The Suburban Railway wasn't ready for 2004 though).
Add to that the extremely low tax base - basically, there were so many exemptions you could earn over 20.000 euros a year without paying any income tax, legally. Add again the dysfunctional and stagnant private sector, which lacks innovation, is proliferated with tiny, tiny businesses - basically the owner, his son and maybe one employee - mainly in retail (it sometimes seems our biggest sector is the convenience store), the lack of initiative to grow, expand, to become larger enterprises that also create jobs. The government supported this model by turning a blind eye to tax evasion, of direct and indirect taxes, so that these businesses wouldn't go under.
You guys so don't have a fucking clue about anything if you are even asking this. What makes it even more laughable is that you think you're being clever, when you're just showing your ignorance up even more.
|by Anonymous||reply 22||01/28/2013|
Yes R2 that is what R13 was saying. These financial bodies were US Banks.
Default Swap Loans = PayDay Loans (in disguise)
These were so complicated most bankers could't understand them. Which is how the US banks took advantage of them.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||01/28/2013|
R14:[quote]There is little chance that the US will have Greece's problem (barring a Weimar-style economic collapse), mostly because we can print our own money, which the US government is constitutionally required to do.
I have news for you, R14. The US government is not printing money. The Federal Reserve is, and has been since 1913. The corrupt US government won't even pass a bill to audit Fed because those running the Fed have declared that their books are none of our fucking business.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||01/28/2013|
Basically, Danny and Sandy had a summer fling. That ended and they were afraid they'd never see one another anymore. Through a bizarre coincidence, Sandy ended up at the same high school as Danny but he was a jerk. Then they had an on and off relationship which finally was resolved when Sandy decided she'd be better off being a slut.
|by Anonymous||reply 25||01/28/2013|
Dick of tin hat @ r24. The Fed and the US Govt are the same thing.
|by Anonymous||reply 26||01/28/2013|
R26 no they are not...look it up the Fed is private.
|by Anonymous||reply 27||01/28/2013|
[quote]People forget to mention why Greece needed the money. It had an extensive welfare state and no choice but to borrow more to cover its "cradle to grave" care for its people.
You're conveniently forgetting that it was conservatives who were in control of Greece as it borrowed money, spent like crazy, and didn't worry about collecting taxes (much like Reagan and GW Bush in the US), not the socialists.
|by Anonymous||reply 28||01/28/2013|
Greece needed cradle to grave socialism because most of its income went to a small wealthy elite. The issue was that this elite should have been taxed to do it, and they didn't do that.
Anyway, their debt and their spending wasn't as awful as represented on this thread. The big problem was the EU's stupid rules, which are unduly restrictive; and Greece's response to those rules, which was to expose themselves to disaster with their helpful friends the New York City banks.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||01/28/2013|
R26 wins the Uninformed Idiot of the Month award.
The Federal Reserve is a privately owned international bank.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||01/28/2013|
The Fed was created by congressional legislation, Congress determines what the Fed can and cannot do, and the President appoints its Board of Governors.
The Fed is a quasi-governmental agency. Are you really that ignorant, R30?
|by Anonymous||reply 31||01/28/2013|
R31 in the real world the Fed determines what the government can do.
The government is a quais fed reserve agency.
Is your head really that far in the sand?
|by Anonymous||reply 32||01/28/2013|
The problems in Greece are much deeper than having a generous social welfare state.At the core of it is every libertarians fantasy, Greeks are every man out for themselves! There is very little civic pride in Greece, people are extremely anti-authoritarian.They are big tax evaders and they have the highest self proprietorships in all of Europe.Uncle Takis owning a taverna is more the order of the day rather than the middle sized companies that are the bedrock of German and Italian economic expansion. So unlike say Italy, their economy is absolutely undiversified.
There's one story that I've read really describe what Greece is like. A few Greek businessmen went to Italy to study several Italian businesses. They were shocked to learn that unlike Italian businessmen lived close to their factories! Even worse unlike the Greeks weren't living in Switzerland or taking the fat of the company to live off of.
R21 The US welfare system is not as bad as you portray it. I have relatives in the EU and European countries are usually more generous BUT they can afford it to a certain degree. Greece cannot.
R22 You're on to something. Something which rankles German's feathers(I have family there) is that Greeks retire early, get all these benefits and Germany has to support them!Germany has the most dominant economy is Europe, people work hard and save and do things for the common good while Greeks and their politicians don't. Greek people thought they could get away with this behavior BUT they were wrong.
R28 That problem has been happening in Greece for years. Greeks have been cooking the books regardless of who is in power.Tax evasion is done by people who in the New Democracy, the Golden Dawn or the KKE. It knows no party bounds.
The Greeks are also by far the most individualistic Europeans! Freepers would love that about them . However they still want to take from the government but not put in. Sounds like hypocrites in the Tea Party to me actually!
One last thing for the Dubya clone who called them Grecians...they are called Greeks or even Hellenes but not Grecians.
Someone mentioned ,Ireland? Ireland is getting its debt in order whereas the Greeks are on the precipice of blaming THE Turks!I get the Greek channels and I haven't heard them do that yet but it's coming...;)How was tiny little R OF I able to right the ship and tiny little Greece not? It's a cultural thing. When you have a bunch of people pointing fingers at each other and at an imaginary conspiracy,what do you think will happen? Nothing....
|by Anonymous||reply 33||01/28/2013|
R2 here. Good lord, the Paulites and Gold Bugs trot out their favorite hobby horses at the drop of a hat, don't they.
Greece wasn't in the best economic shape in the world when they entered the Eurozone in the first place. The problems enumerated by other posters (Greece's corrupt state sector, mass evasion of taxes, lack of civic engagement) would have all remained relatively local problems if the geniuses in Berlin and Brussels had actually performed their due diligence and investigated the finances of the Greek state with half the thoroughness that a journalist like Michael Lewis did.
Further, Greece's financial woes would have been containable if the big banks of Frankfurt, Paris, London and New York hadn't assumed (or at least bet) that debts taken out in euros had the implicit backing of the ECB.
While it's certainly fun to lambaste the lazy, shiftless, greedy Greeks (who we know work longer hours on average than any German does), any rational observer would realize that what transformed a financial difficulty at Europe's periphery to an existential threat to the whole idea of the European Union is the action, not of low-level Greek individuals, but wholesale corruption and exploitation by the big banks of Europe and the USA.
Freepers should save their fire and point it at the Goldman Sachs and UBS institutions of the world. If they worked up nearly as much froth over these actors as they do trashing the character of a whole people, I might believe that they are acting in good faith, instead of mindless bigotry.
|by Anonymous||reply 34||01/28/2013|
R34 Have you been to Greece? The people are nowhere near as productive as Germans per hr THAT'S why they work more hours. I still don't believe that people in Greece work that long. Traditionally they close for lunch then come back to work.Greeks always talk about the lazy folks who hang out at the kafeneon(the coffee houses).They lounge while the Albanians do the work!
When have the Greeks been a net contributor to the EU? Try never. Even Ireland was giving more than it received before the Eurocrisis.
Blaming international banks for Greece's problems is like a 350 lb fattie blaming McDonalds and Burger King for his predicament!The Greek people themselves with their selfishness,individualism are to blame for their current predicament. Freepers don't like Greece's socialism BUT they love their libertarian attitudes towards putting money into their own pocket and screwing over the tax man.
What's happening in Ireland? The Irish are cleaning up their deficit problems why can't Greece? The Irish economy went into a tailspin yet the Irish people are working together to better their country. Meanwhile Greeks are still screwing each other and in effect the other wealthier European countries.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||01/28/2013|
Do you get some kind of psychological charge out of blaming the Greek people for their predicament?
Sure, there's probably lots of blame to go around. But if you actually read the post, I'm saying that what mutated Greece's regional peccadilloes into an existential threat to the EU is the actions of the ECB and the big Wall Street banks.
Whether Greeks are lazy or not is immaterial. My guess is that you'll find one or two lazy Irishmen if you look hard enough.
|by Anonymous||reply 36||01/28/2013|
I don't get r1's joke either.
|by Anonymous||reply 37||01/28/2013|
R36 , I have family in Greece so i know the situation first hand! The Greeks' tax evasion, corruption and dishonesty got them into this mess no one else. By shifting the blame on international entities you fail to realize that the fundamental problem is with Greece's system,its people and its way of life. In essence Greece gave Germany and the German banks, the rope to hang itself on.And if there was a state in the US like Greece it would have been kicked out already.
Whther Greeks are lazy,shifty and dishonest is highly material to what is going on. The R of Ireland for all its problems(and yes there are some lazy Irishman) still has the social cohesiveness to overcome this BUT Greece? Things are chaotic there because of that extreme individualism and that lack of social cohesion.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||01/28/2013|
Ok so let's grant that Greeks are a nation of lazy, scheming, grifters who'd cheat their own grandmother out of her last gold tooth and then not pay then dentist who took it out of her mouth.
This would essentially be no one's problem but the Greeks if Germany and France hadn't let them into the EU. Greece's financial problems wouldn't be the world's financial problems if the Big Banks hadn't allowed them to metastasize into the world financial bloodstream.
By your own standards, R38, Greek corruption was a given. So what's the difference between 1978 and 2013? Integration into the EU. And who allowed that? Germany and France. Why did they do that? Their banking sectors saw big profits in speculating in Greek real estate.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||01/28/2013|
Thats funny R39. Is that the reason Americas economy is shit? And R38, what exactly do you mean "extreme individualism"?
|by Anonymous||reply 40||01/28/2013|
R39 Greece cooked their books to get into the Eurozone. That's like you applying for a job and not telling your prospective employer that you were a criminal. Then you complain that they fired me because you lied!It's not France and Germany's fault that they let a partner in the EU into the Eurozone,it's Greece's fault that they lied and cooked the books to get into the Eurozone. BTW at one point France's debt was 9 percent of GDP,that's why Sarkozy wasn't exactly wagging the finger at Greece. Then again French people are not happy with Greece being in the Eurozone just the same.As are most EU citizens. If they took a poll today most EU citizens would want them not only out of the Eurozone but out of the EU as well.
R40 Greek people are extremely individualistic in many senses. One is akin to many libertarian low tax American types and runs contrary to Northern Europeans like THE Germans. The Germans pay their taxes because they know it's for the common good,a Greek evades and hides his income so that he can pocket the money for himself. Then the Greek wants to take part in a social welfare state as well!In essence, Greeks are not into civic pride they are into individual and not civic pride. Athens is perhaps the ugliest capital of the old 12 EU countries. It looks like ugly parts of the Bronx with palm trees! Why give a shit about what the capital looks like when I can pocket the money for myself?
|by Anonymous||reply 41||01/28/2013|
R33 R35 R38 You keep mentioning how Ireland got it's house in order - you do know, I hope, that was achieved with an 85 BILLION Euro bailout? Ireland was re-capitalised by the EU, 13.5 pc of that total being provided by the UK alone, even though they're not part of the Euro monetary zone. Ireland didn't sort themselves out, they were given huge amounts of taxpayer funded money from other European countries to keep them afloat. The financial dealings of the Irish elite don't bear close scrutiny, just look at all the dirty dealings that have been exposed there since 2008.
I don't begin to know what the answer is for Greece but it isn't copying the Irish.
|by Anonymous||reply 42||01/28/2013|
R42 Ireland made painful budget cuts to start the process going. If it was just the bailouts then the other highly indebted countries wouldn't still be in trouble. Oh and what bailouts did France receive to shrink their deficit? All the so-called PIIGS countries have their problems but Greece is the worst shape. Unlike the other Med countries, their agricultural sector doesn't measure up. Where is the heavy industry for a tax base? It's a tax evading public who is dishonest married with a corrupt government body who is corrupt as well.
What is the solution? Kick them out of the euro I say. Many of the Greeks think that the Euro is the problem. It's a part of the problem BUT their major problem is their society.When people in a country put I before we, they end up like Greece.
|by Anonymous||reply 43||01/28/2013|
R43 All the points you make about tax avoidance are valid, but the fact is every country in Europe has had to make budget cuts, not just Ireland. The tax avoidance problem isn't just the Greeks either, it has been a huge problem in Ireland too, as is embezzlement. Ireland were forced into making cuts because all the other countries said they wouldnt continue to pay Ireland's bills if they didn't. It's not some sort of Irish miracle. The Greeks need to do a lot to sort themselves out, and leaving the Euro would be a good start. They shouldn't have joined, or cooked the books in order to join. Same with Ireland. They have shown they too can't do it without being a drain, and they were NOT net contributors before the crash either, they were getting bailed out then too. It's not a viable economic model.
Again, not claiming to have any answers, just maybe knowing where isn't a good place to start.
|by Anonymous||reply 44||01/29/2013|
Tax products, not incomes, and you'll see how this all turns around. It's easier to enforce a tax attached to a product than a tax on production itself. The more something is taxed, the more it's discouraged. Cigarettes are taxed, and as a result, less people are smoking. Income is taxed and, as a result, people are being less productive to compensate for their reduced input. Why the hell is this so hard to understand?
Greece's problem is the problem of every nation: Cronyism on the highest levels. Big firms are in bed with government, encouraging it to levy taxes and apply regulations that are advantageous to them and disadvantageous to their competitors. The only one who suffers are minorities, and the biggest minority is the individual. The individual is fucked in today's society. Nations with individual economic liberty are prospering at this point. Sadly, Europe's demise will be brought in by a round of thunderous applause by its proletariat.
|by Anonymous||reply 45||01/29/2013|
R44 Greece was the country that was most enthusiastic about the coming euro along with Italy! So the public supported wholeheartedly. They didn't realize with a johnny one note economy that tourism alone would sustain their economy.Answers? It's simple diversify your economy Greece. Drop the fucking all chiefs and no Indians mentality. Start thinking like Italy and have world class companies like Prada,Luxottica and Armani. Start an export driven economy instead of importing every thing. They change that and that's the beginning.
You're completely wrong about Ireland, they were contributing to the common fund not taking from it. Before the real estate bubble, Ireland's economy was growing at an incredible rate. It was called the Celtic Tiger,now it's a toothless tiger though!In addition, the Irish Republic has taken measures to resolve their debt issues,meanwhile Greece is still in chaos.
R45 Greece unlike Southern Italy doesn't have a mafia BUT their political class makes Southern Italy's look honest in comparison.That tax evasion issue is an overwhelming problem relative to the other MED/PIIGS countries. Greeks are uniformly the worst tax evaders in the EU. A non-diversified economy,heavy tax evasion, an economic model on based on self proprietorships rather than middle sized companies are at the core of its problems. Not to mention their homophobia! They could use all the gay tourism they can get,yet so many Greeks are intolerant towards gays and lesbians.
|by Anonymous||reply 46||01/29/2013|
R46 - Ireland has never, at any point since they joined the EU, been a net contributor. You don't have to believe me, the figures are published and easily verifiable.
Most recent figures, showing the highest contribution in Ireland's history:
Received Contribution Deficit 2004: 2.6 billion 1.2 billion 1.4 billion 2005: 2.4 billion 1.5 billion 0.9 billion 2006: 2.2 billion 1.5 billion 0.7 billion 2007: 2.1 billion 1.6 billion 0.5 billion 2008: 2.1 billion 1.6 billion 0.5 billion 2009: 1.8 billion 1.5 billion 0.3 billion 2010: 1.9 billion 1.4 billion 0.5 billion
If you're having a reasonable discussion about economics it would help if you knew the figures you're talking about. I don't know why you feel you need to defend Ireland, but the facts are against you. It is not a model that any fiscally responsible government should follow.
Please feel free to look at the published EU budgets and try to find out where Ireland have ever contributed more than they received. You could be some time, so I'd pack some sandwiches if I were you.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||01/29/2013|
R47 Big fail on all fronts. I'm not Irish or Catholic ,I'm part English and protestant BTW.So I have no vested interest in the country. It's called being objective. Ireland is attempting to right their ship whereas Greece is flailing away having strikes and general chaos and disorder in their society.That is why I mentioned Ireland.
Oh and your statistics? What was that saying about statistics and damn lies......Ireland was a net contributor in 2009.
Here is Ireland's contributor status for ten years. The positive means they took out and the negative shows that they contributed.This is in millions of Euros:
1.719,5 2000 t
1.198,3 2001 t
1.574,1 2002 t
1.559,0 2003 t
1.593,8 2004 t
1.136,6 2005 t
1.080,5 2006 t
662,1 2007 t
566,1 2008 t
-47,5 2009 t
Here is Greece's leeching of Europe:
4.380,6 2000 t
4.503,6 2001 t
3.375,7 2002 t
3.358,3 2003 t
4.163,3 2004 t
3.900,5 2005 t
5.102,3 2006 t
5.437,2 2007 t
6.279,7 2008 t
3.121,0 2009 t
They received this much money and still found ways to fuck things up. Even more embarrassing is that their brother country Cyprus actually was a net contributor to the EU at one point. Yes tiny Cyprus,whose Greek population is the vast majority of the Republic of Cyprus meanwhile North Cyprus is occupied by The Turks! So a tinier war torn country actually gave more than they took out! Then again Greek Cypriots run their country more honestly than The Greeks do.
Cyprus and its contributions:
63,5 2004 t
90,3 2005 t
102,4 2006 t
-10,5 2007 t
-17,7 2008 t
-2,3 2009 t
|by Anonymous||reply 48||01/31/2013|
R48 No-one said you were Irish or Catholic so unclench those cheeks and let your panties untwist. Well done, you found one report that said Ireland had made a tiny, marginal contribution ONCE since they joined. In all those years. Although several other reports say they have never contributed at all, not even for that one time.
Ireland was more deeply on debt in 2010 than they had been since before their economy crashed and burned. Let me say again, for the hard of thinking, that Ireland is not a viable economic model to follow. This isn't any anti-Ireland diatribe, just a statement of fact. No-one in Europe, where the money to keep Ireland afloat is coming from, thinks this is a viable economic model. That's why no-one is encouraging the other countries who are in the same boat to follow that example. Ireland's economic miracle pre-bankruptcy was all smoke and mirrors. If it had been stable it wouldn't have imploded quite so spectacularly.
So to recap, Greece is fucked, I don't know what the answer is for them but it certainly isn't copying the plan of a country that is more in debt now than before. You see what I did there? Didn't claim you were of any particular religion or nationality. It's not personal, just the truth.
|by Anonymous||reply 49||02/03/2013|
R49 No answer for Greek Cyprus contributing to the EU fund while Greece was stealing from it? Fucking Cyprus has less then one tenth the population of Greece and they were able to contribute to the EU. All the Greeks do is steal. Oh and one more thing, Cyprus is in their current financial situation because of Greece. Cyprus had enough investments in Greece to destabilize it.
As per the Republic of Ireland vs Greece you just don't get it. The Irish are attempting to change the situation there while the Greeks are in the same mode: taking from Europe and doing nothing to change the situation.Look at how much money Greece was taking out of Europe relative Ireland and they didn't contribute anything once to them. You should ask a German, A Frenchman or a Briton as to what the solution is with Greece....they will tell you that they should be kicked out of the Eurozone. It doesn't stop there, people from the richer countries want them out of the EU entirely.
No one's butt cheeks were clenched darling BUT it appears that you have put on blinders and shut off your mind entirely!Are you one of those people that blames George Soros for every ill in the world? Are you a Greek? No matter because the responsible people in Europe can smell a snake from a mile away and the Greeks are getting their just desserts right now.And if you are American,you don't want to know what they thought of America until this crisis.If you thought that the French are anti-American the Greeks make them look like rank amateurs.
|by Anonymous||reply 50||02/03/2013|
Easy to explain, they are Greek
|by Anonymous||reply 51||02/03/2013|
What's the deal with Golden Dawn? Are they a serious threat to Greece's future or is neo-Nazism just a fad that will die out when their economy improves?
Also, Golden Dawn sounds like the name of a club for urine fetishists.
|by Anonymous||reply 52||02/03/2013|
Greece is like the 'mos that are infested with AIDS
And Germany and the UK are like the norms that don't want it.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||02/03/2013|
R52 The Golden Dawn is patently stupid. Greece suffered so much under the Nazis but here they are propping up some whackos. I've talked to supposed mainstream Greeks and they feel somewhat sympathetic to the GD. It's easier to blame foreigners in your country when the government is 99.9 percent Greek! The Greeks stole money from the EU,they evaded taxes not The Turks,not The Jews or not even The Germans.BTW The Golden Dawn went to a Hitler's Birthday celebration in Germany and the German Neo-Nazis kicked them out!
R53 You are an asshole!A bigot and a scumbag. And wrong. Britain's debt level was closer to Greece, Italy,Spain,Ireland and Portugal than it was to Germany's. so no I wouldn't include the UK in there. If they had been in the Euro they would have been included in those groups of countries. So not only are you a homophobe but you are not very bright.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||02/04/2013|
Is Turkey still interested in joining the EU?
|by Anonymous||reply 55||02/07/2013|
Turkey is not wanted in Europe and Turkey doesn't want to join the EU either. Their economy is doing too well. Why join the EU when everything is going gangbusters.And the corruption is rampant there. Can you imagine these German bean counters going to Ankara and giving them a lecture on fiscal responsibility? There's no way that's happening.
Though there are poor Turks that would love to move to Europe. Germany's Merkel has admitted that multi-culturalism has failed and the Turkish experiment is one of those reasons. The Turks in Germany still have a hard time assimilating after all these years so why import more people.I talked to a woman from the German consulate in NYC once and I was surprised at what she had to say about Albanians.It was something to the effect of stay where you are we don't want you!
|by Anonymous||reply 56||02/08/2013|