Bathhouse sued for discrimination after management told a FTM trans person he could not use the men's shower.
A Chicago area spa is facing down discrimination allegations, after management told a transgender person he could not use the spa's men's shower area.
Levi Pine, a Chicago transgender man, has filed an Illinois Dept. of Human Rights (IDHR) complaint against King Spa & Sauna in Niles, after a manager told him he would have to use a private shower or leave.
"The experience I had was particularly degrading," said Pine.
Pine has been on masculinizing hormones for a year. When he went to the spa on Dec. 9 with a friend, he used the men's shower facilities. Pine said the manager approached him while he was naked and asked to speak with him.
Read more at link
|by Anonymous||reply 95||01/16/2015|
R9, really, why? Actually, i find it more uncomfortable to shower with men, cause i'm always very horny and if i see a hot guy naked it's very hard to control myself and not stare at him lol
|by Anonymous||reply 10||12/14/2012|
So you mean "not born male" you mean around women where you'll make some of them uncomfortable, R9...
That doesn't explain why you or any other guy should feel uncomfortable around a trans guy (or even a woman, for that matter).
|by Anonymous||reply 11||12/14/2012|
the poll results disappoint me.... I thought DL would have more results for our FTM bros
|by Anonymous||reply 12||12/14/2012|
If the person looks completely male from at least the chest up, I think it might be a good idea for him to use the male showers. Though if it were me, I would wrap a towel around my waist and not make a point of flashing everyone.
No one has the right to look at and judge the genitals, anyway. What if you're dealing with someone who was born genetically male, but had that hermaphroditic or ambiguous genitalia thing going on? Hey, some men who have had accidents look nullo. If I were the one who saw it, I'd honestly just let it go.
|by Anonymous||reply 17||12/14/2012|
Does it really stifle other patrons' entertainment when one single tranny showers for, like, five minutes in the mens' shower?
Have we all become such huge drama queens who think the world has to revolve around each of us individually and our special individual diva needs?
|by Anonymous||reply 18||12/14/2012|
Ha, R19. I know way more transwomen than transmen. The transwomen happen to be much more high-maintenance.
|by Anonymous||reply 20||12/14/2012|
R7 R11 We don't have to explain why.
None of our explanations will satisfy you. Let HER use the private shower. The entire world does not need to support her delusions.
|by Anonymous||reply 21||12/14/2012|
[quote]Have we all become such huge drama queens who think the world has to revolve around each of us individually and our special individual diva needs?
I think that's exactly the complaint against the transman.
|by Anonymous||reply 23||12/14/2012|
I too am beginning to tire of trans issues being connected to gay issues , just like I tire of gay issues being compared to black issues or people who are disabled trying to connect their issues to other issues.
Guess what? Trans issues are trans issues. Gay issues are gay issues. Black issues are black issues.
I'm sick of the piggybacking all around, honestly.
|by Anonymous||reply 24||12/14/2012|
If I owned a spa I would not want her there, period. Think about it--all she has to do is claim sexual harrassment and or claim rape--there goes your business.
If trannies are going to promote their Libertarian attitudes then they must respect the codes of privately owned businesses. It's hypocritical if they don't.
|by Anonymous||reply 25||12/14/2012|
So you're saying [R22] that gender separation in bathing and restroom facilities is just silly and should be eliminated. Women should be able to pee, shit and shower anywhere they want. (Noting that you do support women-only spaces, just not men-only spaces.)
|by Anonymous||reply 27||12/14/2012|
As an FTM I have to say that I would have opted for the private shower.
|by Anonymous||reply 28||12/14/2012|
All the butch-up drugs cost a lot of money and the last thing an ex-gal needs is the insult of being treated like a lady.
Personally, I'd sue the pharmaceutical companies who have a lot of money in a "fail to perform" law suit and use the experience at the vapor haven as evidence of their ineffectiveness.
|by Anonymous||reply 29||12/14/2012|
r22 you contradict yourself: you say women might feel uncomfortable around naked men due to the perceived threat of sexual violence ... but then you saying feeling "uncomfortable" is not a reason to discriminate.
Apparently in your mind women's discomfort is valid, but not men's.
|by Anonymous||reply 30||12/14/2012|
Straight men do not want to shower with gay men because gay men make them "uncomfortable". And they probably have more of a "non-reason" for saying so than in this case.
You have no more explanation for this than they do. That's why we call it irrational. And prejudice.
|by Anonymous||reply 31||12/14/2012|
In SF at my gym we had male to female using the men's locker AND the female to male because the women objected to both.
Put the tranny in a private shower.
|by Anonymous||reply 32||12/14/2012|
[quote]And they probably have more of a "non-reason" for saying so than in this case.
wha? What does that mean?
Your point is ridiculous. Show me one gym where a gay guy was kicked out or denied shower access because straight guys were uncomfortable. I'm not saying some straights don't get uncomfortable around gays, I just don't think gyms are kicking out gays because of it.
|by Anonymous||reply 33||12/14/2012|
Trans rights are different...
Human rights are not.
Stop spreading that sylvia rivera bullshit, it had not even run away from home when stonewall happened.
|by Anonymous||reply 35||12/14/2012|
R34...you're SO full of shit. Go on Youtube. The transmen aren't fighting for gay rights. They identify as straight men and RECOIL from being considered gay at all.
|by Anonymous||reply 38||12/14/2012|
Whoa, I don't know what to make of transsexuals myself, but certainly not nearly all transmen are "straight", R38.
|by Anonymous||reply 39||12/14/2012|
I would be very uncomfortable in a locker room with a transmale.
|by Anonymous||reply 40||12/14/2012|
Exactly, R28, I suspect most transpeople are extremely body conscious, and would never opt to reveal themselves in a semi-public space when an alternative was offered.
Keep in mind this is not a gay, or even men's faciliy. It's co-ed and "family oriented." Children go there with their parents. Fathers and sons use the showers and bathing facilities.
The news report wasn't exactly clear, but said the transman was taking hormones and had substantial body hair. It didn't say that he'd had top surgery. So outward appearances were a very hairy female, boobs and all.
|by Anonymous||reply 41||12/14/2012|
Would you be uncomfortable with them using the men's room? Odds are, you wouldn't notice the difference anyway. Unless you have really voyeuristic tendencies.
|by Anonymous||reply 45||12/14/2012|
Oh and R43, if you can't tell the difference between homophobia from straight guys, and gay men not pretending that FTM's aren't really women, then you're nuts.
|by Anonymous||reply 47||12/14/2012|
R2...but "transmen" are often much more fucked up. Which is really saying something.
|by Anonymous||reply 48||12/14/2012|
R50, you are now proving your ignorance ... among other problems.
Read legal texts. Courts excluded gay people and trans people from civil rights laws for the same legal arguments. We are all denied the right to marry on the basis of gender for the same legal arguments. Courts have denied us equal protection on the basis of the same legal arguments.
And as for false equivalences, you clearly don't understand what a meaningless distinction is, or who is making false distinctions. The law has said that you are NOT using your body as nature intended, and that your sex acts are as much conduct and a choice to do with your body as trans people are doing with theirs. The biological claim that what you are doing is natural is not based in clear science, and there's just as much science, in fact, that indicates that trans people may have biological reasons for their feelings.
As for sanctimony, your hostility is clouding your judgment.
You're beyond help and reason.
|by Anonymous||reply 53||12/14/2012|
Oh ad 51, you can light up all my posts here. I'm not dumping my cookies and pretending to be different people like you are. And my posts are completely consistent.
|by Anonymous||reply 54||12/14/2012|
R53...uh huh.Nice homophobic rant, bigot. Not using my body as nature intended? Fuck you.
|by Anonymous||reply 56||12/14/2012|
R55...says the guy saying that gay men use our bodies unnaturally. Fuck you homophobe.
|by Anonymous||reply 57||12/14/2012|
FWIW, I'd rather shower next to a realistic-looking FTM than a realistic-looking MTF (w/ freakish shemale breasts and whatnot).
And MANY transmen do identify as gay/bi/attracted to other men. A lot of them might have started off as wanting to be straight men, but after taking Testosterone, transitioned towards liking guys. Imagine the irony in that.
|by Anonymous||reply 58||12/14/2012|
[quote]We are all denied the right to marry on the basis of gender for the same legal arguments.
Actually no. Many trans people can enter into legal heterosexual marriages.
also r53 what did you mean by "and there's just as much science, in fact, that indicates that trans people may have biological reasons for their feelings"?
What science? what are you referring to? I understand the impetus behind what you're saying but i'm unaware of anything scientific to back it up.
|by Anonymous||reply 61||12/14/2012|
[quote]Actually, i find it more uncomfortable to shower with men, cause i'm always very horny and if i see a hot guy naked it's very hard to control myself and not stare at him lol
Exactly what bigoted str8 men have been saying about us for years.
|by Anonymous||reply 62||12/14/2012|
So men have to accept FTM and MTF in their showers, but it's ok for women to reject them because they feel uncomfortable?
|by Anonymous||reply 63||12/14/2012|
R62, As men, we don't run the risk of sexual assault from strangers nearly as much as women do.
I would not be afraid of or uncomfortable with sharing bathroom/shower facilities with transgendered people. would you?
|by Anonymous||reply 64||12/14/2012|
R64, if they are pre-op, then yes I would.
|by Anonymous||reply 65||12/14/2012|
Since most trannies are horrified by gay and lesbian people so I don't give a hoot about them.
I have met a few, and they all seem "off."
Contrast that with all of the wonderful gay and lesbians I have met and I cannot make a good case for trannies and all of their weirdness.
|by Anonymous||reply 67||12/14/2012|
Unless you're Linda Blair, the risk of sexual assault in a women's shower is slim to none. It just doesn't happen.
r63 is right: there is a double standard here.
|by Anonymous||reply 68||12/14/2012|
What dingbat FTM's don't understand is that men are real human beings, not a facsimile, and have a wide range of emotions (which they don't, because they take "T").
FTM's objectify men as either athletic studs or cold-hearted misogynists. Most men are not, of course, those two stereptypes but what does a mentally-ill, self-loathing FTM know about real men?
FTM's don't care about men's feelings, because they don't think men have feelings. So in their worldview, men don't have a right to privacy, humility, or embarrassment in showing their private parts.
|by Anonymous||reply 69||12/14/2012|
If one of them were pissing at a urinal next to me, I wouldn't give it a second thought.
|by Anonymous||reply 70||12/14/2012|
ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh mother fuckers need to learn how to live steath lives smh
|by Anonymous||reply 75||03/05/2013|
All together now....
"THIS THREAD IS POINTLESS WITHOUT PHOTOS!"
|by Anonymous||reply 76||03/05/2013|
What is a Trans"man" even doing in an all male bath house?
|by Anonymous||reply 77||01/16/2015|
At some point you have to consider OTHER people's rights. Men have the right to be separate from women in lockerroom and shower situations. This person may identify as male, but that is her thing. Regardless of how she self identifies, the plain fact is that she is still female physically and that's how others identify her, sorry. Once you've had the addadictome, and are a fully physical male, THEN do your male mingling. Until then, keep your pussy in the female lockers.
|by Anonymous||reply 78||01/16/2015|
Anyone else here noticed how within the last few years there are some guys who claim that they're "Gay" but they have vaginal sex with FTMs and then claim that they're not bisexual? I've met a few guys like this and I'm not sure why a gay man would want to have sex with a woman or someone who has a vagina?
|by Anonymous||reply 79||01/16/2015|
I have a hairy FTM fuck buddy.
Muscular, masculine looking and sounding but with a pussy. I love it. Much nicer than ass.
|by Anonymous||reply 80||01/16/2015|
Disgusting, r80, you can't be serious.
Back to the situation; really, how long would it take to shower? Five-ten minutes? Big deal. The manager was being petty.
|by Anonymous||reply 81||01/16/2015|
I can't imagine a FTM would be as much as problem as a MTF. Especially a post op FTM.
|by Anonymous||reply 82||01/16/2015|
[quote]I am SO tired of gay men who are SO tired of wanting to see gay rights separated from trans rights.
And I am SO tired of trans people imposing their homophobia on the gay & lesbian community.
There's no such thing as a gay FTM. Biologically, a gay FTM is a heterosexual female.
This is heterosexual entitlement.
|by Anonymous||reply 83||01/16/2015|
If they offered her a private shower, she has no case. They didn't deny her reasonable accommodation.
|by Anonymous||reply 84||01/16/2015|
She's just another pushy lesbian.
|by Anonymous||reply 86||01/16/2015|
R86, she's a gay "FTM." Not lesbian...she's a straight woman
|by Anonymous||reply 87||01/16/2015|
A chick without a dick is still a chick. she should shower with other ladies.
|by Anonymous||reply 88||01/16/2015|
This is a Korean Spa that I have gone to. The shower area is open and large incorporating three hot tubs, a cold plunge and a steam room. There is also an area for three tables where you pay to have a "scrub" by one of the staff -- still in the open. There are approximately 10 open "stand Up" showers and 15 "seated" showers. The towels provided are about 6 inches by 18 inches. Everyone is naked. This is the male area. There is a separate female area. The facility is large and also includes a large coed area where people wear shirts and shorts supplied by the Spa. The coed area includes about 7 different types of hot rooms, an artic room, a restaurant and resting areas. It is open 24 hours a day. I've included the website info.
|by Anonymous||reply 89||01/16/2015|
[quote] I'm SO fucking sick of these "trans people", typically lesbians who have their breasts chopped off but keep their vaginas
Most surgeons who perform the lower surgery for FTMs do NOT do a vaginectomy, as they do not do the surgery that includes a microsurgery that allows for urethral extension & hookup. If the FTM does not have that, there is no way they can get rid of their vagina.
|by Anonymous||reply 90||01/16/2015|
[quote] What is a Trans"man" even doing in an all male bath house?
It's not an all male bath house. It's a Korean spa that has facilities for men and women.
Read the article next time before you make ignorant comments.
|by Anonymous||reply 91||01/16/2015|
"The experience I had was particularly degrading," said Pine.
Honey, you're in a bath house. It's supposed to be degrading.
|by Anonymous||reply 92||01/16/2015|
[quote] Honey, you're in a bath house. It's supposed to be degrading.
A bath spa is not a bath house.
|by Anonymous||reply 93||01/16/2015|
[quote]Read the article next time before you make ignorant comments.
But where's the fun in that?
|by Anonymous||reply 94||01/16/2015|
I could see women being freaked by MTF. But guys toward FTM should be somewhere between blase' and curious.
And they have the luxury of being bigger down there, which is always a nice feeling.
|by Anonymous||reply 95||01/16/2015|