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Bathhouse sued for discrimination after management told a FTM trans person he could not use the men's shower.

A Chicago area spa is facing down discrimination allegations, after management told a transgender person he could not use the spa's men's shower area.

Levi Pine, a Chicago transgender man, has filed an Illinois Dept. of Human Rights (IDHR) complaint against King Spa & Sauna in Niles, after a manager told him he would have to use a private shower or leave.

"The experience I had was particularly degrading," said Pine.

Pine has been on masculinizing hormones for a year. When he went to the spa on Dec. 9 with a friend, he used the men's shower facilities. Pine said the manager approached him while he was naked and asked to speak with him.

Read more at link

by Anonymousreply 9901/29/2016

the poll results disappoint me.... I thought DL would have more results for our FTM bros

by Anonymousreply 1212/14/2012

More work for lawyers!

by Anonymousreply 1512/14/2012

If the person looks completely male from at least the chest up, I think it might be a good idea for him to use the male showers. Though if it were me, I would wrap a towel around my waist and not make a point of flashing everyone.

No one has the right to look at and judge the genitals, anyway. What if you're dealing with someone who was born genetically male, but had that hermaphroditic or ambiguous genitalia thing going on? Hey, some men who have had accidents look nullo. If I were the one who saw it, I'd honestly just let it go.

by Anonymousreply 1712/14/2012

Does it really stifle other patrons' entertainment when one single tranny showers for, like, five minutes in the mens' shower?

Have we all become such huge drama queens who think the world has to revolve around each of us individually and our special individual diva needs?

by Anonymousreply 1812/14/2012

Ha, R19. I know way more transwomen than transmen. The transwomen happen to be much more high-maintenance.

by Anonymousreply 2012/14/2012

R7 R11 We don't have to explain why.

None of our explanations will satisfy you. Let HER use the private shower. The entire world does not need to support her delusions.

by Anonymousreply 2112/14/2012

[quote]Have we all become such huge drama queens who think the world has to revolve around each of us individually and our special individual diva needs?

I think that's exactly the complaint against the transman.

by Anonymousreply 2312/14/2012

I too am beginning to tire of trans issues being connected to gay issues , just like I tire of gay issues being compared to black issues or people who are disabled trying to connect their issues to other issues.

Guess what? Trans issues are trans issues. Gay issues are gay issues. Black issues are black issues.

I'm sick of the piggybacking all around, honestly.

by Anonymousreply 2412/14/2012

If I owned a spa I would not want her there, period. Think about it--all she has to do is claim sexual harrassment and or claim rape--there goes your business.

If trannies are going to promote their Libertarian attitudes then they must respect the codes of privately owned businesses. It's hypocritical if they don't.

by Anonymousreply 2512/14/2012

So you're saying [R22] that gender separation in bathing and restroom facilities is just silly and should be eliminated. Women should be able to pee, shit and shower anywhere they want. (Noting that you do support women-only spaces, just not men-only spaces.)

by Anonymousreply 2712/14/2012

As an FTM I have to say that I would have opted for the private shower.

by Anonymousreply 2812/14/2012

All the butch-up drugs cost a lot of money and the last thing an ex-gal needs is the insult of being treated like a lady.

Personally, I'd sue the pharmaceutical companies who have a lot of money in a "fail to perform" law suit and use the experience at the vapor haven as evidence of their ineffectiveness.

by Anonymousreply 2912/14/2012

r22 you contradict yourself: you say women might feel uncomfortable around naked men due to the perceived threat of sexual violence ... but then you saying feeling "uncomfortable" is not a reason to discriminate.

Apparently in your mind women's discomfort is valid, but not men's.

by Anonymousreply 3012/14/2012

In SF at my gym we had male to female using the men's locker AND the female to male because the women objected to both.

Put the tranny in a private shower.

by Anonymousreply 3212/14/2012

[quote]And they probably have more of a "non-reason" for saying so than in this case.

wha? What does that mean?

Your point is ridiculous. Show me one gym where a gay guy was kicked out or denied shower access because straight guys were uncomfortable. I'm not saying some straights don't get uncomfortable around gays, I just don't think gyms are kicking out gays because of it.

by Anonymousreply 3312/14/2012

Trans rights are different...

Human rights are not.

Stop spreading that sylvia rivera bullshit, it had not even run away from home when stonewall happened.

by Anonymousreply 3512/14/2012

R26= homohopbe.

by Anonymousreply 3712/14/2012're SO full of shit. Go on Youtube. The transmen aren't fighting for gay rights. They identify as straight men and RECOIL from being considered gay at all.

by Anonymousreply 3812/14/2012

Whoa, I don't know what to make of transsexuals myself, but certainly not nearly all transmen are "straight", R38.

by Anonymousreply 3912/14/2012

I would be very uncomfortable in a locker room with a transmale.

by Anonymousreply 4012/14/2012

Exactly, R28, I suspect most transpeople are extremely body conscious, and would never opt to reveal themselves in a semi-public space when an alternative was offered.

Keep in mind this is not a gay, or even men's faciliy. It's co-ed and "family oriented." Children go there with their parents. Fathers and sons use the showers and bathing facilities.

The news report wasn't exactly clear, but said the transman was taking hormones and had substantial body hair. It didn't say that he'd had top surgery. So outward appearances were a very hairy female, boobs and all.

by Anonymousreply 4112/14/2012

Would you be uncomfortable with them using the men's room? Odds are, you wouldn't notice the difference anyway. Unless you have really voyeuristic tendencies.

by Anonymousreply 4512/14/2012

Oh and R43, if you can't tell the difference between homophobia from straight guys, and gay men not pretending that FTM's aren't really women, then you're nuts.

by Anonymousreply 4712/14/2012

R2...but "transmen" are often much more fucked up. Which is really saying something.

by Anonymousreply 4812/14/2012

R50, you are now proving your ignorance ... among other problems.

Read legal texts. Courts excluded gay people and trans people from civil rights laws for the same legal arguments. We are all denied the right to marry on the basis of gender for the same legal arguments. Courts have denied us equal protection on the basis of the same legal arguments.

And as for false equivalences, you clearly don't understand what a meaningless distinction is, or who is making false distinctions. The law has said that you are NOT using your body as nature intended, and that your sex acts are as much conduct and a choice to do with your body as trans people are doing with theirs. The biological claim that what you are doing is natural is not based in clear science, and there's just as much science, in fact, that indicates that trans people may have biological reasons for their feelings.

As for sanctimony, your hostility is clouding your judgment.

You're beyond help and reason.

by Anonymousreply 5312/14/2012

Oh ad 51, you can light up all my posts here. I'm not dumping my cookies and pretending to be different people like you are. And my posts are completely consistent.


by Anonymousreply 5412/14/2012

R53...uh huh.Nice homophobic rant, bigot. Not using my body as nature intended? Fuck you.

by Anonymousreply 5612/14/2012

R55...says the guy saying that gay men use our bodies unnaturally. Fuck you homophobe.

by Anonymousreply 5712/14/2012

FWIW, I'd rather shower next to a realistic-looking FTM than a realistic-looking MTF (w/ freakish shemale breasts and whatnot).

And MANY transmen do identify as gay/bi/attracted to other men. A lot of them might have started off as wanting to be straight men, but after taking Testosterone, transitioned towards liking guys. Imagine the irony in that.

by Anonymousreply 5812/14/2012

[quote]We are all denied the right to marry on the basis of gender for the same legal arguments.

Actually no. Many trans people can enter into legal heterosexual marriages.

also r53 what did you mean by "and there's just as much science, in fact, that indicates that trans people may have biological reasons for their feelings"?

What science? what are you referring to? I understand the impetus behind what you're saying but i'm unaware of anything scientific to back it up.

by Anonymousreply 6112/14/2012

[quote]Actually, i find it more uncomfortable to shower with men, cause i'm always very horny and if i see a hot guy naked it's very hard to control myself and not stare at him lol

Exactly what bigoted str8 men have been saying about us for years.

by Anonymousreply 6212/14/2012

So men have to accept FTM and MTF in their showers, but it's ok for women to reject them because they feel uncomfortable?

by Anonymousreply 6312/14/2012

R62, As men, we don't run the risk of sexual assault from strangers nearly as much as women do.

I would not be afraid of or uncomfortable with sharing bathroom/shower facilities with transgendered people. would you?

by Anonymousreply 6412/14/2012

R64, if they are pre-op, then yes I would.

by Anonymousreply 6512/14/2012

Since most trannies are horrified by gay and lesbian people so I don't give a hoot about them.

I have met a few, and they all seem "off."

Contrast that with all of the wonderful gay and lesbians I have met and I cannot make a good case for trannies and all of their weirdness.

by Anonymousreply 6712/14/2012

What dingbat FTM's don't understand is that men are real human beings, not a facsimile, and have a wide range of emotions (which they don't, because they take "T").

FTM's objectify men as either athletic studs or cold-hearted misogynists. Most men are not, of course, those two stereptypes but what does a mentally-ill, self-loathing FTM know about real men?

FTM's don't care about men's feelings, because they don't think men have feelings. So in their worldview, men don't have a right to privacy, humility, or embarrassment in showing their private parts.

by Anonymousreply 6912/14/2012

If one of them were pissing at a urinal next to me, I wouldn't give it a second thought.

by Anonymousreply 7012/14/2012

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh mother fuckers need to learn how to live steath lives smh

by Anonymousreply 7503/05/2013

All together now....



by Anonymousreply 7603/05/2013

What is a Trans"man" even doing in an all male bath house?

by Anonymousreply 7701/16/2015

At some point you have to consider OTHER people's rights. Men have the right to be separate from women in lockerroom and shower situations. This person may identify as male, but that is her thing. Regardless of how she self identifies, the plain fact is that she is still female physically and that's how others identify her, sorry. Once you've had the addadictome, and are a fully physical male, THEN do your male mingling. Until then, keep your pussy in the female lockers.

by Anonymousreply 7801/16/2015

Anyone else here noticed how within the last few years there are some guys who claim that they're "Gay" but they have vaginal sex with FTMs and then claim that they're not bisexual? I've met a few guys like this and I'm not sure why a gay man would want to have sex with a woman or someone who has a vagina?

by Anonymousreply 7901/16/2015

I have a hairy FTM fuck buddy.

Muscular, masculine looking and sounding but with a pussy. I love it. Much nicer than ass.

by Anonymousreply 8001/16/2015

Disgusting, r80, you can't be serious.

Back to the situation; really, how long would it take to shower? Five-ten minutes? Big deal. The manager was being petty.

by Anonymousreply 8101/16/2015

I can't imagine a FTM would be as much as problem as a MTF. Especially a post op FTM.

by Anonymousreply 8201/16/2015

[quote]I am SO tired of gay men who are SO tired of wanting to see gay rights separated from trans rights.

And I am SO tired of trans people imposing their homophobia on the gay & lesbian community.

There's no such thing as a gay FTM. Biologically, a gay FTM is a heterosexual female.

This is heterosexual entitlement.

by Anonymousreply 8301/16/2015

If they offered her a private shower, she has no case. They didn't deny her reasonable accommodation.

by Anonymousreply 8401/16/2015

R81 I am very serious.

by Anonymousreply 8501/16/2015

She's just another pushy lesbian.

by Anonymousreply 8601/16/2015

R86, she's a gay "FTM." Not lesbian...she's a straight woman

by Anonymousreply 8701/16/2015

A chick without a dick is still a chick. she should shower with other ladies.

by Anonymousreply 8801/16/2015

This is a Korean Spa that I have gone to. The shower area is open and large incorporating three hot tubs, a cold plunge and a steam room. There is also an area for three tables where you pay to have a "scrub" by one of the staff -- still in the open. There are approximately 10 open "stand Up" showers and 15 "seated" showers. The towels provided are about 6 inches by 18 inches. Everyone is naked. This is the male area. There is a separate female area. The facility is large and also includes a large coed area where people wear shirts and shorts supplied by the Spa. The coed area includes about 7 different types of hot rooms, an artic room, a restaurant and resting areas. It is open 24 hours a day. I've included the website info.

by Anonymousreply 8901/16/2015

[quote] I'm SO fucking sick of these "trans people", typically lesbians who have their breasts chopped off but keep their vaginas

Most surgeons who perform the lower surgery for FTMs do NOT do a vaginectomy, as they do not do the surgery that includes a microsurgery that allows for urethral extension & hookup. If the FTM does not have that, there is no way they can get rid of their vagina.

by Anonymousreply 9001/16/2015

[quote] What is a Trans"man" even doing in an all male bath house?

It's not an all male bath house. It's a Korean spa that has facilities for men and women.

Read the article next time before you make ignorant comments.

by Anonymousreply 9101/16/2015

"The experience I had was particularly degrading," said Pine.

Honey, you're in a bath house. It's supposed to be degrading.

by Anonymousreply 9201/16/2015

[quote] Honey, you're in a bath house. It's supposed to be degrading.

A bath spa is not a bath house.

by Anonymousreply 9301/16/2015

[quote]Read the article next time before you make ignorant comments.

But where's the fun in that?

by Anonymousreply 9401/16/2015

I could see women being freaked by MTF. But guys toward FTM should be somewhere between blase' and curious.

And they have the luxury of being bigger down there, which is always a nice feeling.

by Anonymousreply 9501/16/2015

Now Transmen want to or are going to men's bath houses for bisexual and gay men. I'm sure this happens in SF where they throw a bitch fit if they are not let in but since they are women they should not be allowed in a bath house for bi and gay men.

by Anonymousreply 9601/29/2016

[quote]guys toward FTM should be somewhere between blase' and curious.

Not curious about cunt, no matter what you've done to disguise it.

by Anonymousreply 9701/29/2016

[quote]As an FTM I have to say that I would have opted for the private shower.

Get outta here with your common sense r28 and while you're at it, get in line because I think most of us would opt for private spaces while getting naked and showering among strangers if we all had that option.

Seriously r28, I applaud you and as a FTM, I think you probably have a sensibility that I've yet to see in MTF. You get why the private shower is the best option for FTM who risk sexual harassment or assault where MTF don't seem to get why women might be intimidated by getting naked next to a burly guy waving his dick around the women's locker room.

These are countless lawsuits waiting to happen and many predators will slip thru the door in the process. I feel for businesses like gyms who are being forced to open the door to predators and schools who risk losing funding by risking letting a swinging dick like Ms Lila Perry invade girl's locker rooms.

This isn't that complicated. [html removed]>>Vaginas. If you need counselling or validation for your identity then I guess you should go^^^

by Anonymousreply 9801/29/2016

Private showers/bathrooms/etc for all!

Personally, I can't think of ANY human I want to share a bathroom with, spouse included.

by Anonymousreply 9901/29/2016
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