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The end of unions is fast approching.

They no one to blame but their dreadful leadership.

by Anonymousreply 4512/13/2012


by Anonymousreply 112/11/2012

not really, but it does take two to tango

by Anonymousreply 212/11/2012

One day people will say the same thing about the USA. Dreadful leadership will bankrupt us in a series of unnecessary wars.

by Anonymousreply 312/11/2012

If "dreadful leadership" was the sole cause of collapse, then the US banking industry would be gone and US taxpayers would own controlling shares in all the remaining restored banks. If "dreadful leadership" was the sole cause of extinction, the Republican Party would have gone the way of the dodo bird after Harding, after Coolidge, after Nixon, after Reagan, after Bush, and especially after President Cheney.

But no, incompetence and criminality find a way to keep perpetuating themselves.

by Anonymousreply 412/11/2012

No one to blame? OP is a fucking ignorant freeper or something. The blame is obvious: Greedy executives and the Republican Party. Period.

by Anonymousreply 512/11/2012

If dems stand by and watch it happen then they're equally to blame.

by Anonymousreply 612/11/2012

The unions in Michigan lost because of their piggy overreach of trying to put their "rights" into the Michigan constitution. Really stupid move and shows how out of touch they are.

by Anonymousreply 712/11/2012

Not true R7. Republicans in Michigan are all violent right wing bigots of subnormal intelligence. All the union leaders could be genius saints and they would have gotten an even more hysterical reaction from the legislators, who are not worth one pound of poodle pooh if you add them all together.

by Anonymousreply 812/11/2012

Everyone should make minimum wage...and then we should lower minimum wage.

by Anonymousreply 912/11/2012

This is why there should be someone elected by the employees sitting on the board of directors with veto power over executive compensation. We need union power, but unions now are too weak to fight their own battles.

by Anonymousreply 1012/11/2012

The sad thing is that, when they do finally achieve the goal of ending unionism, the middle class will be a thing of the past as well. When you drive through all those suburbs, and see all those single-family homes, most of them came about because of the influence of unions on payscales and worker's rights.

PS - Remember the 80's when Republicans were so concerned about worker's rights and unions - when it was Solidarity in Poland?

by Anonymousreply 1112/11/2012

What would a union president say to the argument that unions protect dead wood? If you work your ass off and the guy in the next cube goofs off all day, you both get the salary.

by Anonymousreply 1212/11/2012

And if the goof off doesn't get the salary R12, then he needs unemployment and food stamps and Medicaid. Sorry, you've got tunnel vision R12. In addition, let's be frank. In non-union shops, it isn't the slackers who get fired, but the people who challenge management. You just want the corporation to be a bunch of yes-men toads, and our business class has already proved that they have too many of those. I look at the CEO class, and I don't see 10% that are even competent in their jobs, let alone good.

by Anonymousreply 1312/11/2012

Those communities, 40 hour work weeks, employee health care, vacation time, the lack of 10 year olds working in sweat shops, sweat shops, the automobile industry (forget the manufacturing side, no one on minimum wage could afford a new car today), and the list goes on and on and on and on and on, R11.

by Anonymousreply 1412/11/2012

A friend was a Shop Steward at AT&T. He gave up the job, tired of defending people who should've been fired. Each time management attempted to "separate an employee from the payroll," the union brass would find a similar infraction from ten years ago where that employee wasn't fired, as a reason to keep this worker.

by Anonymousreply 1512/11/2012

Republicans digging their hole deeper and deeper. Shame on the governor and legislators. Many of them voting on this have already been voted out of their next term in office and they did this because they knew it would not pass in next years new legislature. Shame, shame, shame, the government in Michigan might as well be in a dictatorship type government. Shameful!

by Anonymousreply 1612/11/2012

Liar R15, and it should be hard to fire someone. It's the most violent thing that can happen to someone nowadays, worse by far than a mugging.

by Anonymousreply 1712/11/2012

"Each time management attempted to "separate an employee from the payroll," the union brass would find a similar infraction from ten years ago where that employee wasn't fired, as a reason to keep this worker."

So because of your one anecdotal example all unions should be extinguished? Is that where this is going?

Let's talk about the malfeasance, greed and bad faith on the other side of the aisle shall we? How about the c-suite at Hostess who raided the pensions of their hard working factory stiffs and gave themselves a hefty pay-out before declaring bankruptcy?

I'll take a lazy worker over that shit any day.

Unions aren't perfect. But they built the middle class. They gave us fair pay, the whole concept of a two day weekend, and the promise (at one time) of decent hours that weren't abusive.

What are corporations doing to pick up their slack? N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

When unions lose so does the middle class. End of story.

by Anonymousreply 1812/11/2012

R12, he would probably say that they both deserve equal representation as they are dues paying members. he would have to say that as he could be sued for showing biased representation. in reality, a lot of union leadership knows who the troublemakers are and don't consider their grievances as heavily as others. as for the idea that unions protect dead wood, its managements job to monitor the employees and every contract has clauses for a firing process for the lazy goof offs. all the union does is force management to follow the process. where i work it only takes 5 write ups(even for little things like using your phone off break, or not having safety glasses on), and they can boot you.

R15, past practice cases can be used but not always. and why not, if two people have the same infraction shouldn't the punishment be the same? if the person had a hardship or some personal reason, management usually stipulates that the case cannot be used as precedence in the future.

most people only focus on the petty things that happen in the business and don't see what union activists fight for outside the shop. we are the ones who have been fighting the bullshit of trickle down economics for decades. the only advantage the working class have against corporate money is numbers. collective bargaining helps people in many sectors get fair pay and treatment.

by Anonymousreply 1912/11/2012

Good point #17. Here is an example of the auto unions hard at work fighting the good fight.

by Anonymousreply 2012/11/2012

r15 here. Iam NOT a liar. You can't deny that unions protect people who don't do their jobs. Your claim "far worse than a mugging" is a specious argument.

by Anonymousreply 2112/11/2012

Look no further than the lies being told about the Hostess situation.

The unions were agreeing to take less and less while execs were increasing their own salaries.

Even now, the execs took the millions left and put it into their own pockets.

by Anonymousreply 2212/11/2012

Some of my best friends are Michigan Republicans.

by Anonymousreply 2312/11/2012

I deny it categorically. People get fired from union jobs all the time. Unions, however, make sure that due process is followed, and that's a good thing.

by Anonymousreply 2412/11/2012

The big problem was the "closed shop" mentality that spread to requiring those who wanted to get a union job to be sponsored by someone already in the union. We see this now in jobs of all sorts, but it was one of the nastier facets of many unions, and helped make them unpopular.

by Anonymousreply 2512/11/2012

The fact is that both Unions and Union busters are wrong. It is just that the union busters are MORE wrong. I have been on both sides. While the unions being pig headed was annoying, the management abuses were just that, abuse.

Seniority exists for a reason. First, the assumption was that the worker that had been with the company the longest were more likely to have established families than new hires. Therefore, he had more to lose if fired. Second, it prevent favoritism. It may be total arbitrary, but it is fair in its way. You cannot promote your best friend or sister's husband over someone else. Second, it prevents punitive actions on the part of management. You cannot refuse to promote someone or prevent him from getting a raise because his wife got the last bottle of Midnight in paris at the Gimbles sale (true story).

by Anonymousreply 2612/11/2012

r25, IATSE (International Association of Theatrical Stage Employees) on Broadway is a father-son union.

by Anonymousreply 2712/12/2012

Thanks to union rules a New York eatery was unable to fire two employees who over the years became incompetent. They were forced to go out of business and reopen at a different location just to get rid of the dead wood.

by Anonymousreply 2812/12/2012

Actually, there are others to blame in addition to the leadership.

by Anonymousreply 2912/12/2012

From The Opinion Page ...

"What Right To Work Would Do For NY"

by Anonymousreply 3012/12/2012

There was someone on CNN the other day who stated that in the early days of the auto industry employees made the equivalent in today's money of $50 an hour. And yet somehow the auto industry grew and flourished for decades along with the country as a whole.

by Anonymousreply 3112/12/2012

Labor unions are responsible for the many benefits of our jobs that we enjoy today. Even if you only work part time in the worst job possible, you still enjoy at least some of the fruits that labor has fought for. Here are 20 of them.

1. Minimum Wage: Without federally mandated minimum wage, we’d still be working for pennies.

2. Child Labor Laws: Without these laws, children would be hired as cheap labor.

3. Paid Vacations: Did you go on a cruise this year? Perhaps to the Grand Canyon or another country? Thank a union.

4. Employer Health Care, Dental, and Vision Insurance: If you have a medical, dental, or vision care plan through your employer, your a lucky person. All because of organized labor.

5. Pensions: If you were able to retire at 65 and get pension checks in the mail, congratulations, you’re living proof that unions work.

6. Safety Conditions: Do you work at a potentially hazardous job but have safety regulations in place to protect you? If so, unions are responsible for your continued safety.

7. Collective Bargaining: Just having the right to negotiate with your employer is a benefit guaranteed by a union.

8. Weekends: If you have weekends off to spend with your families, a labor union is responsible for giving you that time off.

9. Sick Leave: Did you get to use a work provided sick day to get well? Unions fought for that too.

10. Overtime: Are you able to work overtime and get paid even more for it? Thank a union.

11. 8 Hour Work Day: Without unions, we’d all be working non-stop 24/7. Because of unions you’re able to go home and spend some time at home with family and friends before you catch 6-8 hours of sleep.

12. 40 Hour Work Week: Just like number 11, without unions, we’d never have a day off and work would encompass our entire life.

13. Unemployment Benefits: Are you unemployed but receive unemployment benefits to care for your family until you find another job? One word. Unions.

14. Wrongful Termination Laws: Because of unions, you can’t be fired for stupid reasons, like the color of your skin or because you make too much money.

15. Pay Raises: Unions are responsible for your ability to ask for and receive pay raises.

16. Holiday Pay: Do you at least get some holidays off? If so, thank a union.

17. Pregnancy and Parental Leave: In some countries, women give birth on the job and have to go back to work the next day. Corporations would make women do the same thing here if not for the determination of a union.

18. The Right To Strike: We have the right to organize and protest against the government. A union fought for your right to organize and strike against your employer.

19. Equal Pay For Women: Women finally get equal pay for equal work. Thank a union.

20. Laws Ending Sweatshops: Because of unions, sweatshops, which employ cheap labor with harsh conditions, are illegal.

Every right that a worker has in the workplace is all because a union fought hard to get it. As Republicans continue to wipe out unions and weaken them, they also weaken us and our ability to fight back against unfair business practices. We are at risk of losing all the things that unions fought long and hard to secure. Even our jobs are at risk. Because of unions, many of the jobs Americans still hold, have not been outsourced overseas. Unions protect jobs in America and where there are unions, there are jobs. Because the private sector has largely wiped out unions, big corporations are able to lay off American workers and give those jobs to cheap labor overseas. If you want a job, or want to keep yours, organize or join a union and fight for your right to work. Unions fight for the American worker, therefore they fight for us. Anyone who says that unions are un-American only wants to get rid of the above list so that they can make ridiculous profits off the backs off a cheap labor workforce. If you support American workers, American jobs, and the continued prosperity of the American people, support labor unions.

by Anonymousreply 3212/13/2012


by Anonymousreply 3312/13/2012

When I was going to elementary school in the 1960s, the buses advertised our school district as being "Union Free." I always wondered what that meant. Was there a bias against unions in the 50s and 60s after the "red scare?"

by Anonymousreply 3412/13/2012

r34 A union free school describes a "union" of multiple common school districts, "free" from the restrictions that previously barred them from operating high schools.

by Anonymousreply 3512/13/2012

[quote]It's the most violent thing that can happen to someone nowadays, worse by far than a mugging.

MARY! Btw you're leaving out the fact that some people DESERVE to be fired, whereas no one deserves to be mugged.

R12, I don't know where you got that list, but whoever wrote it is hogging *way* too much credit for unions. Many of the things on it are thanks to federal statutes, not unions per se: minimum wage, child labor regulations, safety conditions (more of a concern about legal liability/negligence claims than anything else), wrongful termination, unemployment benefits, and sweatshops all fit here. Also, you are clearly deluding yourself if you think women earn equal pay either at nonunion OR union employers. Women still make, on average, only about 70% of what a man would earn in a comparable position, for myriad complicated reasons.

by Anonymousreply 3612/13/2012

Anti-union = Freeper

There's no way around it. Get rid of unions and you're giving the rich even more of what they want. Don't bitch about CEOs giving themselves bonuses. The anti-union idiots are so frigging ignorant. You owe everything to them. You think weekends are a right? You think safe working conditions are a right? People are so fucking dumb.

by Anonymousreply 3712/13/2012

[quote]You can't deny that unions protect people who don't do their jobs

So get rid of unions? Perfect.

by Anonymousreply 3812/13/2012

[quote]The big problem was the "closed shop" mentality that spread to requiring those who wanted to get a union job to be sponsored by someone already in the union. We see this now in jobs of all sorts, but it was one of the nastier facets of many unions, and helped make them unpopular.

Oh, christ. Unions are only unpopular with Republicans.

by Anonymousreply 3912/13/2012

r25 = Resident DL Freeper. Troll-dar it, then F&F it. I love how easy they've made it. Thanks for outing yourself, hon.

by Anonymousreply 4012/13/2012

[quote]Get rid of unions and you're giving the rich even more of what they want.

Honey, the rich get what they want REGARDLESS of unions. Or were you not paying attention to what happened recently at Hostess when it filed for bankruptcy? Their executives looted the union's *pension* for bonus checks! (and did so entirely LEGALLY - there is no federal law preventing such a thing)

by Anonymousreply 4112/13/2012

Another comment from r35 in another thread:

[quote][R1], women have another choice. Visit a different doctor.

This is in response to this:

[quote]It's a sneaky way to not dispense birth control and the morning after pill? They are trying to do away with giving women a choice.[/quote]

In this thread: "(MI) State Senate passes bill allowing doctors to refuse care for moral or ethical reasons"

F&F it NOW!!!

by Anonymousreply 4212/13/2012

[quote]Anti-union = Freeper

R37 = completely incapable of a thought process that's not black-and-white. While I'm not "anti-union" per se, I don't think there's *any* point these days in unionizing employees other than untrained low-wage retailers. I'll also point out that unions are one of the main reasons why so much American factory work has lbeen relocated to China, SE Asia and Central America. Even within the U.S., unions have been a key reason why some companies have chosen to move their factories elsewhere; a good example is Boeing deciding to open its newest plant in South Carolina vs. Washington State.

Finally, the most burgeoning domestic business sector of the past 20 years -- technology -- has thrived with virtually ZERO unions existing within it, and workers in such fields enjoy many *more* benefits (vacation days/PTO, health insurance, partner benefits, etc.) than what's available at a standard unionized business.

by Anonymousreply 4312/13/2012

Thank you, R18 and R32. The reality check was needed.

And, R21, admit it, you went to the little Christian school where you learned creation science and how to recite mindless dreck. Because you sure as hell can't read.

by Anonymousreply 4412/13/2012

Unions have laid the foundations for many worker rights/benefits we see as the norm nowadays. I'm pro-union all the way.

That doesn't mean we can't amend and strengthen the overall effectiveness of unions. Namely, when is asking for "more" a detriment to the owner/worker relationship? When is protecting every single employee, regardless of merit and performance, defeat the whole purpose of having a union?

These sorts of questions need examining for sure. But unions need to remain. The minute they go away, owners will take back any and all worker rights.

by Anonymousreply 4512/13/2012
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